Akiona Law Podcast
Join us as founding attorney Lani Akiona interviews industry experts on everything you need to know about Family Law and Divorce in Seattle Washington. Akiona Law: Caring for You in Your Time of Crisis.https://www.akionalaw.com/**The information in this podcast is general information only and should not, in any respect, be relied on as specific legal advice.
Akiona Law Podcast
019 - The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Sara Wahl
How my parent’s divorce influenced my career path into Collaborative Divorce.
Okay. So I'm gonna do account down 3 to one. Hello!
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And welcome to another episode of the Akiona law.
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Podcast we're in we talk about everything and anything that ent intersects with the areas of family, law and divorce.
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And today I have with me collaborative law Attorney Sarah Wall, Hi, Sarah!
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Welcome to our Podcast
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Hi! Thank you for having me
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And Sarah, you've been a collaborative law attorney.
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Well, I guess. Let me ask you this, what is collective law?
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Tell us about what you do
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So, clever, okay, so collaborative law or people may have heard the term collaborative divorce.
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So it's it's it's a term of art, it's not, it doesn't mean we're just friendly.
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It means that we work in a laid out process, and the process involves working as a team with 2 attorneys.
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Oftentimes a a coach who has a mental health background, and oftentimes a financial, neutral, or certified divorce financial analyst.
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So we work as a team in a in a interest base process.
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In a sense of meetings where we walk through and resolve all the issues related to a divorce or any family law case, that the parties wish to.
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Use the process for, but it's contract base. We we sign a contract.
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That's called a participation agreement. And in that agreement that puts us into the collaborative process, talks about that the attorneys will not go to court.
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So if someone decides to go to court, we will withdraw, and that we can't represent them in any sort of contested court.
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Proceeding it also. It's a very lengthy contract, and we can talk about that later.
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But we once we sign that contract, we're in the formal collaborative process where we work as a team to resolve all issues related to whatever their family law matter might be.
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And how long have you been practicing lawn, general
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So I graduated from law school in 1999 and then start so didn't do collaborative lie.
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Didn't know about it until 2,004.
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So a pretty short track to that
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So when did you start practicing collaborative law
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So I heard about it in 2,004, and there were only about I don't know.
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5 or 6 people that were starting to do it, and we didn't have any laws, or you know it was just.
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It was just purely, contractually based process very similar to mediation.
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And so I heard about it. I was actually on the Washington State Bar Association lawyers, assistance panel, and we have a little retreat, and somebody came and talked about it, and a colleague of line came and talked about it, and I was like oh, my God, I need to find out more.
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About this, and you know there wasn't even really any training around I had to go out of the State to get trained, and you know it was a very, very small group of people, and at all, you know, who had started talking about it.
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Maybe a year and a half before that. So
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So then, did you start practicing collaborative law in 2,004? Then
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Okay.
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I think it was technically 2,005, because I still I also had to get a train be be trained as a mediator.
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Okay.
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That organization that they had at the time had a requirement that you have a 40 h mediation training, which I hadn't done.
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You know I hadn't done that which was pretty, you know.
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It's pretty intense. And so I also had to do that to become a member but I there were no cases.
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There were so few cases it wasn't like you could get a bunch of cases back.
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Then it was like, you know, a pretty big struggle and a a a long trajectory to where we are today.
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And so because they're morning enough collaborative log cases.
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And were you just doing the traditional divorce cases?
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Okay.
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Yeah, yes, I mean, I I tried to use some of the principles you know, to try and say, Hey, let's just work together let's figure this out, you know, and and as you know, as a long time, family law attorney there's lots of attorneys that are great about
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That and they're like, Hey, yeah, let's not waste people's money.
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Yeah.
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Let's let's figure this out let's get her done.
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And you know, level of civility, but I honestly, I think that that level of civility has gone down in as time has gone on.
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I think people work a little bit cooler back then about just, you know, why are we wasting time and money?
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Whereas now it just everything is just such a big drama and so expensive.
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Yeah.
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And you know I don't know so so there were always those attorneys that you could work with.
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So I tried to, you know I tried to bring those principles and and work out cases that way, and you know I I explain collaborative process collaborative law to all my consultations, and you know, but I I think the more I I was experienced the more I was able to sort of explain all the
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Different process options to clients, and almost never do they choose litigation.
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Cool.
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If they're given like a range of options. And and it's been, I mean, it's been my experience for many years now
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You know, I think the interesting thing is in terms of like you're talking about.
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Some attorneys are more cooper than others, and it almost feels like since the pandemic has happened, that a lot more attorneys have gone a lot.
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They they seem to be more heightened in terms of the drama and litigation, and uncooperativeness and just aggressiveness.
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Yeah.
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The pandemic I feel like has heightened all of that which kind of makes me wanna go just the opposite way, because it's just, you know, as you know, as a collaborative attorney.
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It's just so much more efficient and less stressful for parties to work together.
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Right.
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So I I want to touch upon what you said because you said they were doing different methods of getting divorced. And once you explained it to people, people tended to choose a collaborative route, so can you explain those different processes of the divorce? I guess
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Yeah, so I mean, I, I always have a chart that I sit down with, and it's it's kind of a picture.
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Bye.
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And I say, Okay, here's all the different ways you could do this, and I explain how the traditional litigation process works.
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I explain. You know you hire your attorneys.
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Yes.
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Somebody, serve someone with divorce papers, or whatever whatever kind of case it is, and then you go through this you know, almost year long process of the attorneys fighting back and forth.
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Yeah.
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Maybe you have motion hearings, you know temporary motion hearings, and you know how expensive each one of those is to do.
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Right.
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Expensive way that we gather information like financial information or other information evidence.
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Basically, you know how you can have to do depositions.
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You? Do you know what gathering information is called discovery?
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Discovery.
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And it can take. You know, it's very expensive.
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And so the attorneys just go back and forth, depending on how much of a nightmare of the attorneys are.
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It's like, you know, just a bunch of crap that happens, and money that's being spent.
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Right.
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And then you're required to go to what is called mediation.
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But that's really it's, you know, they don't teach mediation that way.
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What you're really going to is what's called a settlement conference.
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You prepare for this sort of all day, exhausting.
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You know you kind of prepare like your whole case, like kind of like you're going to trial.
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Okay.
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You kind of write like a semi-trial brief saying, this is what my client wants.
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This is why they should get it. Both parties do that they give it to the mediator, and then you're insane.
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Rooms with your attorney and the mediators going back and forth trying to cut a deal and telling you the strengths and weakness sort of evaluating your case and trying to cut a deal because you have a trial date looming.
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Okay.
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And so when I tell people you know, 96 to 98% of cases settle in that settlement conference.
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So I say, if you're only 2 to 4% of cases in your, you're never gonna go to trial.
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Why wouldn't you start with mediation? At least mediation?
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Yeah.
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And so I, and then I explain the difference between what is called mediation in in a traditional litigation case and what is taught when you go to learn mediation at a law school or any mediation organization.
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They teach you what's called interest-based mediation and interest-based mediation is helping the parties define their goals and interests and trying to, you know, help them co-create and agree that meets both parties important needs and interests and
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Yeah.
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And it's and it's a sorry to infer interrupting you. But I think it's important to note that in traditional litigation, like how you're saying mediation is not interest-based, it's essentially a summon conference.
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Right, right, absolutely.
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And so now yeah, so now you're talking about interest-based mediation, which is a different process.
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And your traditional mediation for litigation
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Right, right, and so it's really important that people understand that difference cause the only place they use.
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That kind of mediation, that Settlement Conference mediation is in like court, I mean, you know, if you hire a mediator that's been, you know, or if you even if you take it in law school, they teach interest-based mediation, because we know there's plenty of evidence to know
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That people come to better settlements when they feel like their interests and needs have been.
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Hmm hmm right
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Rather than will they win or lose. And you know we all know I mean you've had the experience, I'm sure you know, spending 12 h in a settlement conference.
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Oh yes!
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You settle the case, everyone signs an enforceable agreement.
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That means they don't get to change their mind. And the next morning you get the call.
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Yeah.
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I hate this. You get that call from your client. I mean, it happens all the time.
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And so in interest, base meet mediation. You don't do that.
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You have time to think about it and continue the conversation. If it doesn't quite fit.
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And so so when I explain court process and interest-based mediation, then I can go back.
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Yeah.
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You know you could do interest-based mediation. You can use an interest-based mediator, and you, the 2 of you, work with that person, and you can use attorneys as needed collaborative attorneys, and then I and then I explain the collaborative law process.
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And I say, Well, this is more process, and this is all an interest-based process.
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But you both have attorneys, and then we have a team and we work as a team.
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So, you know I explain all the process options, because sometimes they people don't need that much process.
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But if they're working with a mediator and interest-based mediator, that's trained in collaborative law collaborative process, and then they use collaborative attorneys on the side as needed like that's a huge part of my practice is just being an as needed
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Collaborative attorney. So as long as all the professionals involved have this collaborative law training, they're going to do interest-based work.
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Okay.
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They're going to, you know, help meet the needs, whatever the people need, and so it's it doesn't have to be the full collaborative process where you sign that participation agreement.
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But working with a bunch of people like that. That's half of my practice.
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And so, and then I tell. Then I explain to people, okay, you could also do what we call a kitchen table divorce.
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That's you 2 hashing it out over the kitchen table, and I said, You know, usually, if you have kids or you've been married for a while, that's not the smartest maybe even married for a couple of years, you both.
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Have good jobs. You both have your own stuff, and you just want to go your separate ways and keep what you have.
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That's easy enough. You can use an attorney to just draft up your agreement and push it through the court, or you can just try and do it yourself.
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So I explain all of that. And then people never say Why would I spend all this money only to settle in mediation, or whatever what they call meetings?
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Right.
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And you know, 1011 months later, why would I spend all that money?
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That doesn't seem more. And then but I also expect the emotional cost of being in this heightened like stressful litigation for almost an entire year or more.
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You know, that is really stressful. And and it's about it's about fear.
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Okay.
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It's about conflict, you know. It's about winner loser.
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So that's not. It's it's it's all fear. Base.
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2, which is negative.
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So what made you decide to get into collaborative law, to switch from doing your traditional divorce to collaborative divorces
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So when I when I heard about it, I was just like, Oh, my God!
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Hmm.
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You know I I I can't really say just sort of like ran a bell like this is what I should be doing like, because it just kinda all came together because of my past.
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So growing up as a child of a of a really bad conflicted divorce.
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And you know just all the fallout of that growing up, and you know my experiences trying to grow up and trying to figure my life out after a lot of you know awful things going on.
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And you know, and we can type about that. However you want.
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Okay.
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But it it just totally was it just totally felt like I came full circle of like.
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Oh, my, this is what I'm supposed to be doing!
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Yeah.
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So other kids don't have to grow up the way I did, and mainly
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So that's so. So, yeah, that's you know, it's interesting how the experiences from our past influence, who we are today, especially in terms of being family law attorneys, and how we practice.
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And it's interesting how you were talking about and in terms of traditional family law litigation, what people don't realize is that it's a year of just stress and negativity.
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And then emotion or turmoil that that it places on the family.
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And you went through that, I guess, as a young trial. Can you tell us like, how old were you when your parents got to divorce
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Okay.
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So I was. I I think, of 8 or just or just 9, maybe just 9.
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Wow!
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So it's like you know it also that I can't tell if that's the age where you really start.
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Sort of watching people, you know, or your your thought process becomes more complicated, or if it's because it was so traumatic that I remember so much from that time, it's hard to say.
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Yeah.
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But yeah, not about 9.
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Can can you talk about that about the experience of your parents? Divorce
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I mean it was, you know. That's I mean it was 1979.
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So that's how it was. The attorneys were probably much more civil.
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Back then I'm guessing. But I don't know.
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Were they
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Yeah.
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I mean that it see? Anyways, I I mean I don't know much about the legal wranglings of it, but I definitely know that you know.
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There, you know we didn't, you know we didn't know much about how this affects kids back then.
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Yeah.
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So you know, automatically, the mom had the kids and my mom has some mental health issues that you know or you know not.
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She's functioning. But she was, you know, we no one.
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She was, you know, so mad all the time, and and just like seeing awful stuff about my dad the whole time.
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And of course my dad didn't want to deal with it.
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So, you know, she kind of decided everything that was gonna happen.
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And there was just so much conflict, and you know it was just, you know, she would say, oh, if you're you know, if your dad loved you he wouldn't have left.
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Oh! Oh!
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And you know, just like insane stuff and and and
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Right.
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Right.
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Well, now, you call that abusive use of conflict, cause you're talking negatively about the other parent involving the kids in the middle parental alienation
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Okay.
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Right, all of that. And and you know honestly back then, I don't think that a dad had much of a chance in hell of getting customized of kids back then, or you know, and we didn't have more shared parenting like we do today.
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And we don't we? You know we we don't have the body of a research that talks about.
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You know what happens to kids when they have little involvement with their fathers in their lives.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Which we do now, and so and that's not to say every family needs to have an equal parenting plan, but certainly relegating one parent to you know, Disneyland, we every other weekend parent is is not going to be good for kids unless there's something functionally wrong with that parent
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Yeah.
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Like, you know. Obviously, if there's domestic violence or drug and alcohol abuse or mental health issues, I mean, honestly, I think if that case happened today, we would have probably ended up with our dad, like
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I mean, but so I I mean it was, you know. I don't know how much of it was the actual court battle that I you know, wasn't like a Craamer versus Kramer situation, where I remember any of that.
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Okay.
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But the fallout of it was that you know, a really hard childhood, and you know, a really long growth process for me become functional.
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After that. But what was that one? Was that your question, or did I answer your question?
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I know I think you did. No, but I think it it goes.
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I you know. I think it goes more into that trauma cause like you were so young, 8 or 9 years old, and it's not necessarily the fact that like you're talking about Kramer versus Kramer. Right?
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We're being in court. But it's just that fallout.
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Where you have one page just badmounting being negative all the time, and how that really impacted you as a as a young child like, do you?
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Can you? Can you talk like, how did that affect you growing up, though?
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Well, I mean it was. I mean there was other things that you know.
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My I mean it I mean it was. It was awful, because, you know, we loved our dad, and we didn't.
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Alright!
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We didn't understand. You know what you know when you're when this person you're closest to tells you X y. And Z.
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I mean you kinda believe them, and you know you don't have the frame of reference of this person's crazy.
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So it was, you know, a caused a a huge rift in in, you know the relief with our dad, and then, you know, our dad got remarried and had a other kids, and you know part of the you know, part of the conflict of that led into the conflict.
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With my mom. So like we stopped seeing him, and you know, and and and then, you know, I became a teenager, and then I was like.
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Hmm.
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Then I started using drugs. And I was like I finally felt better like like I I mean, I literally remember thinking like, Oh, my God!
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Yeah.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.000
Wow!
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:12.000
I finally feel assigned piece right now, like I I was just so torn up for so many years like from age, dying to, you know, for 1314 that I you know the second I use drugs.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.000
Yeah. They went away
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.000
I was just like, okay, so I was able to tune a lot of it out.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:21.000
After that point, because of that which helped helped, I mean, probably saved my life.
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:24.000
Honestly, I think I would have killed myself. It wasn't for that.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:30.000
Whoa!
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.000
Wow! Wow!
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:32.000
I just was like felt. I mean, I really did feel suicidal for so many years, until I started using drugs.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:38.000
Cause. Then I finally was like, Okay, like, I can take this feeling on it.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:43.000
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's, you know. Sorry you went through that.
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.000
But at this it's it's so powerful, it's it really is.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:55.000
It's so powerful because that impact that basically had to do what was the one parents.
00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:19.000
Negativeivity towards the other parent, and essentially just a alienating you from your father.
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.000
Yeah.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.000
It just in a way, it was like crazy making unintentional, crazy making where you had it was, you know your it was either take your own life or resort to drugs to just make the pain stop cause you're in so much pain because one parent wasn't providing you with love security.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.000
You didn't have, and you weren't seeing your dad
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:31.000
Well, he wasn't really providing security I mean, he wasn't really being honest with us about other stuff, and it was very.
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.000
It was very confusing. Like he would, he said. I'm gonna get.
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:41.000
I I mean, we're gonna tell you we're getting married tonight at dinner.
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.000
But I'm not gonna get married. So just go along with it.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:48.000
So my sister and I were like what you know, like, I'm like 11, I mean, it was, you know, like that was a total mind. Get you know.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:23:03.000
What? Why would you force your kids to sit through this like announcement of I'm getting married and but you've told us behind the scenes that that's not have. It was so strange.
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:04.000
Okay.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000
I mean, honestly, it was, I mean. So we had that going on.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:14.000
And then our mom, you know, I mean, it was just like, you know, I I mean it was just a nightmare, so I you know.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.000
So like, I said, when you find the drugs you're like, okay.
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:22.000
Yeah.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.000
Now, I can just at least I don't have to feel any of this, because it doesn't make any sense to me.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:27.000
The.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.000
So how did how did you get? How did you get through all of this? Then?
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:31.000
I mean you you mentioned because I mean obviously, you're not using drugs anymore.
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:34.000
I mean, but like so
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:42.000
Well, actually, no, I'm just kidding. I'm like lucky on it.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:43.000
Yeah, you made it up
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:50.000
I did. I did. I mean I was really lucky. I mean, I became a home.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.000
Okay.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.000
Wow!
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.000
Yeah.
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000
I became a heroin addict, and I was homeless and you know I mean on a if I was doing it today I'm I would be dead for sure, because what the what what's out there now.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:04.000
But I don't know. I mean I went to treatment.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Wow!
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Probably 10 times. And yeah, honestly, I ended up just getting to a place where I was like, I can't. You know.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Yeah.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:19.000
I I just I always had this sense like, I'm not supposed to be doing this, you know, and I don't know if that's true for people that also die I don't know.
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:27.000
But I should have died for sure, and I I just got to a place where it's like I'll do anything I have to do to stay clean and sober.
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:32.000
And now I went to I did. You know I went to Aaa.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:33.000
Yeah.
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:42.000
Went to na, you know, and made that, you know huge part of my life, and you know, did a lot of work on myself you know.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.000
Yeah.
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:46.000
Therapy would. Still, were doing like it, going through another round of that at age 53.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:25:09.000
So that's fun. But you know it's kind of that continued like willingness to sort of look at the truth about yourself, and sort of see how you move in the world, and you know so yeah, honestly, a lot of luck a lot of hard work being willing to look at myself, and you
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:14.000
Know life's good now. It's been a long, long road
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:18.000
And you're in a you're in a 12 set recovery program.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:19.000
Yeah.
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.000
Yeah, I mean, I've go ahead. Sorry.
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.000
No! And how long have you been clean and sober?
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:33.000
So I've been clean. Well, I I got clean originally in 1990 and stayed clean for like 8 years, and then I relapse taking pills for a little bit of time.
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.000
Okay.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:43.000
But I've been clean in in, in February tenth, 23.
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:44.000
Wow! Congratulations!
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:58.000
It will be 23 years cool since that, but I mean that the relapse wasn't great, but it was.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.000
Yeah.
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.000
It was very. It was fairly so, I mean on. I've been doing recovery since 1990, but you know, straight 23 years in February tenth
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:01.000
In February 2023. Wow! Congratulations!
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Hey February the twentieth, 2323 years
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.000
Yeah, I know. I cause it was 21000, yeah, that's the birthday.
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:13.000
Okay, yeah, congratulations to that.
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:21.000
Cool. I mean stopping. Those years have gone so fast now, but so much is, you know, so much has happened in them.
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.000
Now, that's like my whole career is in that time.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000
It really feels like. So
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.000
So what made you decide to get into law
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:52.000
So I was so when I when I got clean in 1990, I I dropped out of school like dropping out of college, and then when I got clean, I went back to school, got a degree just a BA in criminal justice because I was interested in you know crime.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:53.000
Yeah.
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:54.000
And what not, and and then we couldn't really.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:01.000
Then I'd be. I'd also well, I was a drug and alcohol counselor for a little bit of time.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:02.000
Huh!
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.000
Then I was like, Yeah, I'm not really, not really down with that.
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:09.000
And then I was like, well, I need to. And then I ended up.
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Yeah.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.000
I was a nanny, and I was like, after about a year and a half ago, that I was like, I gotta do something else.
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:18.000
Yeah.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Wow!
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:25.000
I'll go to law school. So I went to law school, and on the first sale they're like, Hey, how many of you went to law school because there was no math on the Lsat?
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.000
Oh, yeah.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:32.000
And everyone's like. So so you know, I I I kind of thought I'd be a criminal lawyer.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.000
That was always interesting to me, but I didn't, really.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:35.000
Okay.
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:40.000
I just honestly, I think I went to law school, so I would feel better about myself because I have.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.000
I still at that point in time had really low self-esteem.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.000
Okay, so how would? That's, you know, that's really interesting.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:53.000
So you feel like going to law school would help you feel better about yourself like how so
00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:01.000
I mean I I think that I just felt I mean, there actually is research showing that people with higher degrees have lower.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:02.000
Huh! Oh.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.000
Self esteem, because, yeah, I can't remember where I read that years go by.
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.000
I just felt like so an adequate, so less than you know.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.000
Hmm.
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:14.000
I I had some learning disabilities that were never addressed.
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000
Okay.
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.000
When I was young, so I was always that student that they were like, oh, you're just.
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:22.000
You you're not very good. You're not smart, you're not you know.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.000
Oh, my!
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:26.000
Yeah.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000
So I was like, I always just felt less than I think, intellectually, and and in some ways I still do, because I have some of those, you know, learning problems.
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:57.000
And I also think maybe have a little bit of brain. You know my critical thinking is not fabulous, and it used to be better, but I don't know.
00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:58.000
Yeah.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.000
So. So I just I I just thought, well, if I can say I'm a lawyer or I went to law school that I'll feel like it's sort of a false sense of I mean, I wouldn't have told you that at the time, but at the it's pretty obvious now
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:06.000
Well, cause our society also 2 values education as well, and I always kinda thought like, you know.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.000
Well growing up, not growing up, but through my own circumstances, too.
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:20.000
Right. It's just logic seemed solemn, mysterious, and unknown, and to just have that knowledge to just kind of peel back that mask and figure it out is like, just what is it?
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:25.000
So I don't. You don't have to feel so helpless and powerless.
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.000
Yeah.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.000
Right in my sort of my parents, minds, and my generation you're you're probably your generation.
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:42.000
That's that parents always thought. If you're a doctor or a lawyer like that's the most pristine thing you can be right like.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:50.000
That was sort of the thing, even though you know, if you'd have gone into like commercial real estate, you would have made a lot of money.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.000
Yeah, you, yeah.
00:29:51.000 --> 00:30:05.000
But you know they don't. They really understand that? But at the time, you know, I think that I honestly felt like, if I do this, then maybe my dad will be impressed with me or will not be.
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:06.000
I don't know
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.000
Wow, yeah, yeah, no. I, I, I, yeah, I hear you on that, especially, too, I think a lot of people not a lot of people.
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:21.000
But I think one of the withdrawals and alcohol use is that feeling less than I feel less than so?
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:22.000
Right.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.000
It's really kind of interesting, you know, that you tested upon that, and thank you for sharing that cause.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.000
That that is a big thing of alcohol drug use, not feeling lesson.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:35.000
And when you take that substance, you know you feel like you can do anything.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:36.000
Yeah.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.000
You're funny. You're smarter, you're pretty.
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:44.000
You're all going. You're you know you're if you're a woman, you're like Cindy Crawford.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.000
You feel like, and if you're man, maybe you feel like you're superman.
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.000
Right, right.
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:49.000
I don't know. Brad Kip. George, Clooney.
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:50.000
Right. Yeah. Totally.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:55.000
Yeah, so that's so, then you go to so. But then how did you get into?
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.000
So you wanted to do criminal justice how did you get into family law?
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.000
Is it because base would happen?
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:05.000
No, I honestly I couldn't get a job.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Okay.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:11.000
I tried to get a job being a public defender, and I practice by myself for a little while.
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.000
Did some misdemeanor or criminal, you know.
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Low grade misdemeanor stuff, tried to get a job at one of the public defense firms.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:39.000
I couldn't get the job, I've never would have gotten a job as a prosecutor because of, you know, my background, and I have a couple of little crimes in there related to my drug addiction, and and I ended up just getting a job where the job was family law and I just kinda
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:51.000
Had to teach myself how to do it, and you know that's where I ended up doing it just because I couldn't get any other job.
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000
Yeah.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.000
And I didn't really like it per cause. I just felt like all I'm doing is causing conflict.
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:58.000
And and just like the the the ramped up nature of it, and the energy from the people.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:11.000
It just oh, I I mean I I always felt like this constant state of angle.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000
Oh, yeah.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.000
What am I gonna walk into? That's on my desk tomorrow that I have to deal with right now.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000
You know, because it's
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.000
Like, what what email or what
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Or what ocean, what motion do I have to respond to like that?
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:34.000
Just I just that that unpredictability of that just made me crazy and I just like it.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:39.000
And if it happened, I had to deal with it right now, otherwise I couldn't relax.
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:40.000
Alright!
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.000
So it was just not a good fit for me, and I just go around and around and around of like like I'd read someone's motion.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:49.000
I'd be like. Oh, my God, they're right like I I just like every like that.
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:54.000
's a good motion. They're gonna win, like I always would like like.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:07.000
They would convince me they were gonna win, even though, you know, I'd spent so much time writing these motions just like wanting it to be perfect.
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:08.000
Right.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:17.000
I had this about it like I have to make this as good as it can be, and I just like could never just let it go.
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:18.000
Yeah.
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:24.000
You know. So I was always just vibrating up here in anxiety state.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.000
Yeah.
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:27.000
And I I just hated it. But you know I was doing it.
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000
And then I heard about collaborative law, and I was just like, Oh, my God!
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:35.000
Like this is, you know, because I did it. There were some, many attorneys that were like just such a pleasure to work with, even in litigation.
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:43.000
They just made it easy, and we could be cool, and I really liked that.
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:51.000
That that kind of relationship with whoever we call opposing council
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:52.000
Yeah.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.000
Being being civil, I I have to let me. Let me. This is an example, family law, litigation.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.000
Did a did a consult with someone right child support, modification, post, secondary modification.
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:11.000
So the person didn't hire then I then, just recently, the person got served as discovery, which is interrogatories.
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:12.000
Oh, God!
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:17.000
They got it on Christmas Eve. That is family, law litigation for you, I'm like, Oh, my gosh!
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:18.000
That is city
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Who does that? Thanks. And granted it was and of course, right.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.000
The person called me once. Christmas holidays had passed to say, Hey, you know I got this.
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:35.000
It's a 63 page interrogatory for child support, modification and pull secondary, and guess what grade the kid is in a June year I'll junior in high school.
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.000
Oh, my God!
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.000
The Kid does not know where he's going to go to college.
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Right, right, right.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.000
A kid hasn't been accepted to college. The kid is getting like one or 2 s.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000
The Kid may not graduate and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, you!
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000
Right.
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:51.000
I'm gonna see this, you stupid attorney!
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.000
Yeah, right, right.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.000
Are you serious? Are you serious? And like that? Just like that?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.000
Yeah.
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.000
Just makes me want to screen to know Anne and pick up the phone.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:05.000
And it's newer attorney, and his mom is an attorney.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.000
He works in his mom's office, so he thinks he knows I don't.
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.000
I mean I'm not going to speculate what he knows.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000
Right.
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:15.000
But I'm like this is not how you practice law.
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.000
Right.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.000
Right.
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.000
You are wasting your clients money, and it's sad.
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:28.000
It's really sad, and it doesn't. And I think what like what we're trying to say it, it doesn't have to be that way.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.000
And we as a and I think it goes back again to in terms of especially doing family.
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:37.000
Law litigation just because you can do something doesn't mean you should
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Right, right.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:40.000
And
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:45.000
I I think that's and so the the thing with like collaborative law, you move away from all of that.
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:52.000
I guess that posturing, that making things, and that heightened type of anxiety and litigation just because I can.
00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:04.000
I can send out the discovery, but doesn't mean I should in the child support case where all I need is just transport modification where just I need like any tax returns.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.000
I need. W. 2. I need pay stuff
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:14.000
Right like, why can't you just even in that case, why can't you just say, Hey, do we just like openly exchange these documents like, you know.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.000
Oh, that's what that's what I'm gonna do.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:19.000
I'm gonna write a letter. I'm gonna be very civil.
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:23.000
I want to be like, hey? Can we pause formal discovery and just exchange this?
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:29.000
But you, I mean, come on, we've been doing this long enough, for I know what I'm gonna get
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000
So that was my
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000
Right right. And we all know what the court's gonna make everyone give.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:36.000
So why are we? Why are we wasting everybody's time? Right? I mean, I don't know. Yeah.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.000
I don't I don't know, but I've been in court, and I've just been basic.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:45.000
You know the court has said the court is not going to rule on pull secondary for Kid, who doesn't know where they're gonna go?
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:46.000
Right, right, right.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:49.000
Why? Why, okay? So that's that's my little tangent. Because
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:53.000
That's your Christmas divorce is Attorney Rant this year.
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:57.000
As a Mike Christmas, but no serious like. Who who does that right?
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:01.000
On Christmas Eve. Oh, here's this package of discovery for you.
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000
Yeah.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:03.000
63 pages on, yeah, it's nice
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:09.000
Well, if that's how you practice log, guess what it's gonna get done to you, too.
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.000
And you're not gonna look, you know, I mean, I don't know.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.000
It's. It's just. It's just kind of sleazy.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.000
I don't know. Does it?
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.000
Kind of well, and I think
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:27.000
So that's what kind of met with the civility like, you see, newer attorneys just like coming out of the game.
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:28.000
Yeah.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:42.000
So when I was a new attorney, I I was always really courteous to the other attorney, because I knew I didn't know what I was doing, but what I found more recently is that younger attorneys are so cocky, they don't they think they'd know and they're just
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.000
Yeah.
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:50.000
Gonna get nailed. But you know that was not what I thought was a good idea.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000
Okay.
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:55.000
When I first started practicing I was like, be as nice as I can, and you know, because I'm gonna make a mistake.
00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:07.000
And there they might give me a break
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:08.000
Oh!
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:09.000
You know it's interesting, though, when I was a younger attorney I came out with guns blazing, and and I don't know if that's because I have a prosecutor background, or maybe that's just my personality.
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:23.000
Where? Actually no, I take it back. I thought to be a good lawyer, meant you had to be aggressive, and you had to be aggressive all the time, and it was only through doing cases with older lawyers that I saw oh, wait a minute it doesn't have to be this way.
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:31.000
And it actually, it can be better if I tone it down.
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:32.000
Right.
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:34.000
And I'm professional and curt. Well, not but if I'm courteous and civil, so you were a better person than me coming out of the gate
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Well, I mean if you're a prosecutor, you actually know how to try cases.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:46.000
I mean, I think you and I had this conversation before. It's like family law attorneys don't know how to try cases if you try one case every 3 years.
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:55.000
You're not a trial attorney. You're not, I mean family law in general are not experience trial attorneys.
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:56.000
Yeah.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:01.000
We don't do it enough right, especially even especially if you're good, because you settle your cases, you know, because it's a waste of money in most cases right?
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:07.000
It is a wait. Time.
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000
Yeah.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000
But being a prosecutor, you learn or or defense attorney, you learn how to try a case.
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:24.000
You know your rules of evidence, you know. You know how to do it, and so I mean any family law attorney would be an idiot to take a case to trial against a an experience litig, real litigation attorney in my in my opinion.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000
You get right
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Well, I think it first. I think, in terms of just having doing, of having doing trials as a prosecutor is that you learn that no one wins a trial, and it is just completely out of your control, and it especially more so doing family long.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:45.000
No.
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:51.000
I think that's why, too, collaborative law is so important because no one wins when you go to court you you lose, even if you win in court, you're not gonna get everything you want.
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:53.000
It's not you know. You're still gonna lose something, and it's just that.
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.000
Right.
00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:01.000
It's just that all that that emotional time and investment and just the negativity
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:10.000
One of the things one of the things I I I always think, is like, you know, most of these judges that are on the bench like I don't even know how old they are.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:17.000
Now, like, okay. But hmm, very few of them practiced family law.
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000
That's true.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:25.000
Yes.
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.000
So you know, if these judges have been at the prosecutor's office for 10 years, they are like a brand new family law attorney, deciding these complicated matters.
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:33.000
That's the last person I would want to say, you know, I and that's part of what I talk about in the console.
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000
It's like, if you go to litigation, you don't have any control.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:47.000
You may have a brand new judge who has never practiced family law reading the statutes and making decisions that will last a lifetime for you or you might, by the luck of the tro, get one of the good ones.
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:56.000
But there's not that many that have a lot of experience in family law, except if they've been on the bench a while, so you know, I wouldn't roll the dice on that.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:08.000
That's a I would. And also, wouldn't you want to make creative decisions if they fit for your family things that a court can't do?
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:16.000
Right which you can do in collaboratively. I love that you can make creative decisions
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.000
And
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:18.000
Yeah, so, right, yeah, right, right, like, sometimes, people want to Co own a house and it and it works for them.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.000
Yeah.
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:23.000
I mean, we don't just say, Yeah, co- on the house.
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:32.000
We lay out every possible scenario for how to get out of that Co ownership if it becomes unnecessary or unwanted by either party.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:39.000
But you know they might say we want to call in the house for 3 years, while our kiddos graduate from high school, and then we'll sell it.
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.000
And this is how we'll divide the net proceeds.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:43.000
Right.
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:54.000
You know. So I mean I love that's one of the things I love the most about collaborative process, or you know, or interest-based mediation is just coming up with creative things that fit individual families.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.000
Let me be outside the box.
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.000
Which you can't do in in regular divorce.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:01.000
No.
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:06.000
I kinda I kind of this is what I like about doing about collaborative law, collaborative voice.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.000
I feel like in traditional litigation, divorce.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:13.000
It's about tearing people, and in collaborative law, collaborative divorce.
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:18.000
You're instead of tearing someone apart. You're trying to keep.
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:25.000
Keep things in tap, keep that relationship intact and just well, now that we're no longer together, how do we?
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:26.000
How do we move forward?
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:29.000
How do we create a 2 to 2 home family
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000
Yeah, right.
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:34.000
Yeah, and it's, and you know, and how do we?
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:45.000
I think one of the things I love the most about collaborative divorce is that the work that they do with the parenting company, or the or the the person that's the coach?
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:53.000
Yeah.
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:54.000
Right.
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.000
They do so, some decoupling work. So you know, whereas parents are parenting as husband and wife they need to learn how to parent.
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Yes.
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.000
Right.
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.000
As Mom and dad. You know they can't bring that, broke in husband and wife, dynamic or or wife and wife or husband and husband, or or what they can't bring that a broken.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:17.000
Ha! You know, partner, partner, relationship to the co-parenting they have to create a new co-parenting relationship.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:23.000
So they can do this from a new place, you know.
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000
Yeah.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:36.000
So I that I, that I think, is one of the most valuable things about it.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Yeah.
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:47.000
And I think it just goes back to what I. It goes back to your experience as a child that people don't realize how much an impact their divorce has on their children, and how it can affect them into well, beyond their their their childhood, years, their teenage years into adults and and they don't
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.000
And middle aged
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:51.000
well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's like my parents got divorced when I was really young.
00:43:51.000 --> 00:44:10.000
I think I was 3 or 5, and I think they only this is the only thing that I remember is that my mom was giving me my sister Bath in the bathtub, and then she just broke down and started crying, and I don't even remember why but I know it had to do with the fact of the
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.000
divorce and I don't even know my mom would remember if I brought it up to her.
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:22.000
Now. But yeah, you know that just the and the the fact that my dad, you know my dagger remarried.
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:31.000
My dad had a had a new family. There's me and my sister and he had 2 girls, and I just remember feeling okay.
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000
Yeah.
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:41.000
So now now we're replacement. And although my mom never spoke negatively about my dad, it's still, you know, there was it's they did it. They were not Co. Parents.
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:44.000
Let's put it that way. It just felt separate right?
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.000
Right, yeah.
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:54.000
And there it had its own trauma on me growing up, that that I'm probably still dealing with
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:05.000
One of the things I think that's so interesting is that you know in in a child's normal development, they, you know, at 8 or 9, or at 3 or 5.
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:08.000
You're not whatever you know, part of your development area.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:16.000
You're not supposed to be like attuning to like complicated.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:17.000
Hmm.
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:19.000
Dynamics between people. You know, you you're you're not.
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:24.000
You're not, you know. You're supposed to be going about your business, is a 3 or 5 year old.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.000
Okay.
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:32.000
You're, you know, skipping to your friend, or whatever, and as an 8 or 9 year old, you're starting to like sort of develop a little bit more intellectual abilities.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.000
And you know whatever. But you're but you're not supposed to be worrying about.
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:36.000
How is my dad feeling? How's my mom feeling? If I do this?
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:44.000
What you're not supposed to be doing that. So what the what do, what it?
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:54.000
You know, a conflictual divorce does, and and it probably happens, even in collaborative divorces, to some degree, because you do have to start thinking about that.
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:59.000
But what definitely a conflictual divorce! It disrupts the normal.
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:05.000
You know, growth, development of a child because they're forced to think about things that other kids in intact families don't have to think about.
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:14.000
So you know it, you know, and also it's tremendous.
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:20.000
You remember it is a 3 or 5 year old, you know.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.000
Right.
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:24.000
Most 3 or 5 year olds don't remember much, and they made such an impact that it's like burned in your memory.
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.000
And the same with me. I remember conversations, and it's like trauma sort of burns memory into your brain.
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:44.000
So so when we you know what we want to do with collaborative divorce is just like, reduce the impact to the kids so they can continue going on with their normal developmental phases.
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:55.000
You know through life I mean, sometimes you talk to people that got the parents got divorced after they were 18, and maybe away at college and it's they haven't a very different.
00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:01.000
I have a few friends that have, that they don't have that sort of fracturedness that they have.
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:08.000
If they're if they're they're, you know, family of origin breaks apart, you know.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.000
Yeah.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:19.000
It's like they're already gone. So they got all they got to meet all those developmental phases in life and go off on their own sort of I mean 18.
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:25.000
But they got to leave the house, and and it was intact when they left.
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:32.000
I think I just think it. It causes a break in people when you do it badly, especially
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.000
Well, and and like in in my situation. It's not like my, you know.
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:38.000
I was so young I don't remember exactly what happened, and it's not as if my mom bad mouth, my dad.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:48.000
But it was just the fact that I I think they weren't in this co-parenting relationship.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:56.000
And then that's not too, I don't. I don't think they knew how, but I think my own issues has to do with just feeling a abandoned by my father, especially with him.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.000
Hmm right
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:07.000
Kind of moving, because I lived in Hawaii. And then he ended up moving away to California and then having kids, and then feeling replaced.
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:09.000
And that's but it's it's just divorce.
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:24.000
And just what happens. I think what you, what you were saying about how the attachment or the relationship between the child and both of their parents is is really important.
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:25.000
Yeah.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.000
And you know, the impacts last longer than people realize. I was.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:37.000
I was just back home in in Hawaii for the holidays, and you know we have this terrible ice storm, and so it looks like our flight was, gonna get delayed.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.000
And I had. Thank God, my dad doesn't listen to his.
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:52.000
Podcast so no one else for my family does either. But so I remember, I called my dad and I said, Hey, dad, you know we have this opportunity to stay until, like the twenty-seventh or the 28.
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:57.000
And you know, can we say with you? And my dad said, Oh!
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:58.000
Is your dad? Is you? Is he in Hawaii?
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:01.000
He paused. Yeah, he's in Hawaii.
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.000
Okay.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:05.000
He moved away, and then he moved back to way. So we are so, he said.
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:10.000
Oh, cause we're seeing how hotel, and they'll tell we're too expensive at this point, cause they're headed to Christmas.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.000
Right, right.
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:13.000
And so he paused, and I said, Hey, so can we stay with you right.
00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:26.000
He's got a condo. Him and his wife, and he paused, and he said, Oh, well, you know, let me see, cause you know I we're supposed to go here to.
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:31.000
It's my younger house this year. We're supposed to go to her and her husband's place I think it was for Christmas Day.
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:41.000
And then there's gonna be someone else that was there, and my sister's husband had ordered the ham, and it was like a five-pound ham, and there may be not food.
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:46.000
And then I think on Christmas Eve my younger sister and her husband are gonna come to his house.
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:51.000
But basically, anyway, I was like, I said Dad. But you know I'm your daughter, and what for?
00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:06.000
With for me. This is what I felt like. It felt like my dad was telling me well, I don't know if you can stay with me because you're gonna mess up my plans because I'm gonna go to your younger sister's house and I don't know if there's not gonna be
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:15.000
Enough food for you or I I it might it like it might inconvenience me, and that sounds so horrible.
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:16.000
Yeah.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:26.000
But and I know that's not how he meant it.
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:27.000
Yes. Right? Yeah.
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:36.000
But man I let me tell you this hour, just the flashback just I was taken back to when I was a child or a teenager, and not feeling wanted, and that's just and just having oh, well, my my new family takes person into above you and your sister and then that's why I was like dad I'm
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:46.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.000
Right.
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:54.000
Getting your daughter. I'm not some stranger like, and I even said, Dad, you know I can do my own thing for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, like we have family in Hawaii I don't have like in my head like I don't have to be with you and then my other head also keen God sakes man if you don't have enough food we can bring
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:56.000
Right.
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:57.000
Right.
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:59.000
Food. We can pick up some stakes or something, but it was some.
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:00.000
I was so hurt, and then I just had to, and he's like, wait, wait, wait!
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:09.000
Let me see, let me see and I just had to hang up the phone.
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:10.000
Yeah.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.000
I'm like, Okay, bye, cause I could my voice is breaking, and I was crying, and right away, like I call my sister, and I was.
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.000
Yeah.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:21.000
I couldn't even get words out. My sister is a year and a half older than me, and I just started crying on the phone to her, and she's like, what's wrong.
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:22.000
Yeah.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.000
What's wrong? Calm down, calm down. That's just so.
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:29.000
She had to talk. Thank God for my older sister! She talked me down a ledge, and she's like I'm sure Dad didn't mean it.
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:32.000
The way that he said it, and then, sure enough, I got this text from my dad.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.000
He's like, if you guys need to stay with me, it's fine, but still it's just
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.000
Hmm! But it brings you brings you right back, I mean, that's the thing.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:42.000
It's like that happens to me all the time, you know.
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.000
That does
00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:52.000
I mean, yeah, all the time. It's like, you know, my my dad and his wife and and their kids.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:53.000
Yeah.
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:54.000
Their life is built around them like, and it does like they don't know our friends.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.000
They don't know. They don't really even know us.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:16.000
I mean my it. It's all about that that family, and and I just told my dad, I think on Christmas I was like, you know, it's not fun for us to be with you like on vacation, because it's almost like we were invisible weird cousins.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000
Like internal numbers.
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:29.000
Like everything is, yeah. And it's like, if we always feel not a part of you know and I have an older sister, too.
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:34.000
Yeah.
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Yeah.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000
She's 2 years older. So my sister and I are bonded in this trauma of our childhood, and the only 2 people that get it are the 2 of us, and and we have, and my sister's like I'm not.
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:45.000
But we have this like, we have this thing that draws us together, that shared trauma.
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:56.000
And you know those 2 shared parents, and and just always that feeling of like you're not.
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.000
Yeah.
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:07.000
It would be so much easier if you just didn't exist, you know, like that feeling that I have with my dad that you know you're you guys are.
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:08.000
Yeah.
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:11.000
This complication of life, you know, and it's like I'm so glad that you guys got to go on and have like a really easy good life.
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:20.000
And your your other kids lives have been so easy, and you know, you know, they didn't have to go through any of this stuff.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:21.000
You know, they learned to save money when they were young, because they had parents.
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:34.000
They you know, I mean I we were just like I was just clawing back from death like when they were learning all those life skills, you know.
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:45.000
And and I had to teach myself most of it because they didn't teach it, you know I was like out of the house by the time I was 17, and never went back so I don't know it it does.
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.000
But it does. I I think you know I share this with my clients.
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:56.000
I'm like, you know, this stuff keeps happening to me as an adult, and reason I do.
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.000
Yeah.
00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:00.000
I don't want ever, you know, because what what's cool is in collaborative divorce, collaborative process we can teach.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:10.000
We can have them work with the coach and really tell them like, how this impacts your kids.
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:13.000
If you're just gonna go get married again and have other kids.
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:20.000
This is how you do this. That right? You know, this is how you know you can't keep someone from doing that.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.000
But if you're gonna do it, this is how you do it, you know you don't like.
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:40.000
Let that other family, you know you have to make a place for that child, and you have to make it feel like it's also their home.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:41.000
That's a good point, right?
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:44.000
But you know, and if you're gonna marry someone that doesn't want that, maybe you should move on, you know, because, yeah, cause that's actually really unhealthy.
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.000
I mean, I think in our culture it's sort of this idea of like you should hate your X.
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:57.000
But if you think about it's actually in ridiculously unhealthy like, I would, as an older person, I think.
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:03.000
Hey? If I had a partner that had a good Co parenting relationship with their expouse?
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:05.000
That's actually a healthy sign. Not a sick, not, you know.
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.000
Yeah.
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:12.000
It's healthy it means that they can honor what they had, and honor that relationship and they'll they'll only be the parents for those kids ever.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:23.000
I wouldn't be, and you know that means that they're a good person if they're always talking crap about the person they were with.
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:36.000
That means, yeah, that's not really that great of a song I see
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:37.000
Right.
00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:49.000
Well, I think it just goes. I I think it just like I think sometimes people just need that light bulb switch which which collaborative course helps you with that divorce code or the paning specialist, how you talking negatively about the children's father impacts and hurts your children so much more
00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:07.000
Than you realize, because we all love our children, are we? I mean, we all want to do good by them, and sometimes you just need someone saying like, Hey, maybe you tell me, well, speaking for front of your child, you know I wish your father saw you more or I wish you're you're got such a deadbeat
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:19.000
Your dad never should have left us, or you look at your dad and his new wife, or his new girlfriend like that really does hurt the kids.
00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:20.000
Yeah.
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:24.000
All the kids want to. They just want to feel loved. We just want, you know, both parents. Attention.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000
Let me think about it. Yeah, kids are selfish
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:31.000
And you will not. Yeah. Well, you want her. You want her parents to, I mean we we can teach them.
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:39.000
And with the in collaborative processes, we can say, like, Look parents, you need to create this unified front here.
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:40.000
Wow!
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.000
You need to do this. And your kids don't get.
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They don't have to be in the middle of this.
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:51.000
They shouldn't be worrying about making decisions. You guys need to be the adults here and figure this stuff out.
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:56.000
So what're hearing is they're hearing the same thing.
00:56:56.000 --> 00:56:57.000
You know we love you, you know. Oh, you're gonna have fun at your dad's. You're gonna have fun at your mom.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:02.000
You guys are gonna do this have fun, you know. And you're and there's gonna be speed bumps.
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:07.000
There's, gonna you know, when new partners come in, that's gonna be hard.
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:17.000
So you know the thing we teach them is like, Hey, when you have these challenges, go see your Co.
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:18.000
Yeah.
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:24.000
Parenting, coach, go, go! Do a couple of sessions with them, and talk about how you're gonna how you're gonna introduce these people.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.000
I mean, they do some of that in the divorce planning.
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:31.000
They talk about introducing new partners and a lot of people put things in their parenting plan that say, this is what we're gonna do.
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:38.000
But you know when it happens, or whatever, and they need to talk about like bumps that they're having with it.
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:51.000
They've learned that we can talk with our co-parenting codes. Let's go back to them and do a couple sessions, and maybe we can walk through this.
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:52.000
Yeah.
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.000
I mean, it's still might be painful. But maybe we can walk through this with more grace, and that will be better for our kids.
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:04.000
Because if you ask parents almost every time you say, really, let's let's let's get down to like, not money, not this.
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I know that probably the most important thing. Here are your kids and 1010 10 out of 10.
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:17.000
They're like, yeah, that's that that is really what cause, you know, they'll they'll have all this static like, I need money.
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:18.000
Right.
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:19.000
I need this, I need that then, but get down to it.
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:34.000
That's really what most people care about. And you can tell them you know what you guys both care about that that's really the most important thing to both of you is that your kiddos come out of this.
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.000
Right.
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:40.000
Okay, and that they have what they need right? And so if you can kind of bring them to the instead of you know what litigation does is, it keeps them in like fear.
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:45.000
Everything about litigation and conflict is fear-based, and in collaborative love.
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:49.000
Is it fully alive? It's more like love, base like.
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.000
Oh, let's create agreements that are good for you and for me.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:54.000
Let's create a agreements that are good for our kids, you know.
00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:01.000
So it's like, if you ask people to. I mean, it's just so obvious.
00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:05.000
Those 2 things are in conflict with what love and fear.
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:13.000
And you know, processes feed those things like fear, litigation, love, caring collaborative.
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:15.000
I mean, and and I go ahead
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And I think I I I think it goes too. Goes like, okay, like, it's litigation.
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:26.000
Disruptive. We're collaborative. Law is reconstructive.
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:31.000
How do we reconstruct things from that husband and wife?
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:32.000
Great
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:40.000
Relationship to co-parenting relationship, or if you don't have kids, it's just how do we reconstruct ourselves into separate individuals, and where we both be?
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.000
Okay. And the couple gets to be in control of that process.
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.000
Right.
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:48.000
Cause like how you talked about in traditional litigation.
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You're not gonna have a judge saying what's gonna happen when 2 partners come into play?
00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:02.000
You have so much more freedom and creativity to put things into your parenting plan via collaborative law, and then you do have via litigation
01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:07.000
Or even if they're just like aspirational things, you know, a lot that's not enforceable.
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:09.000
As for your account, yeah, yeah.
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.000
We all need that, but but I mean just having the conversations with the parenting coach it's aspirational.
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:23.000
It's like, like I have this section that most of the Co parenting coaches put in there when they do their parenting worksheet like they do a worksheet, and they give it to us to drop the legal plan and it will say like we have created this parenting plan.
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:37.000
Using these principles, you know honesty, you know I I mean, it's sort of they use it's kind of the same.
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:38.000
But it, it basically says, here's an intention statement.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:54.000
This is how we created this. And this is what we care about.
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:55.000
That even though you know, some of that's not enforceable.
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:57.000
Like, yeah, that if they go back and read it later, or if their kids read it later, what are they?
01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:12.000
See, they say, Oh, my God! This is what my parents! This is what they we're going for to accomplish.
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:13.000
Right.
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:16.000
When they made this plan. Just kids may see those some day
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:20.000
Yeah, no, for sure. Definitely. Kids may see that some day. Good Lord, right
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:32.000
Right? Right? I mean, imagine the litigation cases where the kids can go down and look at the family law motions that have been filed in their case. Oh, my God! Like
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:33.000
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:37.000
How all the mudslinging. Yeah. So I think so.
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:46.000
We covered so much here today, Sarah, thank you so much for your time and your vulnerability, and sharing with our listeners.
01:01:46.000 --> 01:02:05.000
You know how your own parents divorce, how that trauma affected you so much more than you know any one could have ever thought or anticipated, or or speculate it, and I think it's something, though that's really important for people to hear.
01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:16.000
Though, and that trauma. So last thing you know, you could like again, like I said, here I am in my middle age, and I thought I've done with my own feelings and boom!
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:23.000
Something happens, and it's just right out there, and I'm just my 14 year old little girl.
01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:25.000
Yeah.
01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:26.000
Yeah.
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:27.000
So feeling not wanted, not loved, and it sucks. It's fox folks
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:34.000
But the good news is we can, you know, and that's what I say.
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:35.000
Yeah.
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:37.000
Like hopefully, we can help some other kids not not have to grow up that way.
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.000
Right.
01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:49.000
And you know what was the times. What do you do? But you know I I love that I can share my experience and say, I'm sure you don't want your kids.
01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:50.000
I mean, there is a body of. There's tons of research that shows kids that have bad relationships with one.
01:02:50.000 --> 01:03:02.000
Parents have a higher incidence of mental health issues, drug and alcohol addiction. Promise.
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:03.000
Yeah.
01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000
Iscuity all of those things. So you know, we know that that will happen.
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:13.000
I mean, it doesn't happen to everyone, but we know it happens to a preponderance of kids that have that trauma in their life.
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:19.000
So you know we can do better, and we are doing better.
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:20.000
Yeah.
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:27.000
You know, we. And this is evolution, right? It's evolution of divorce, law and and knowing what we know now that we didn't know even 10 years ago or 20, you know.
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:31.000
So it's great. It's positive, and hopefully it will develop even more and be even cooler as time goes on.
01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:36.000
Hopefully, we can be retired by that
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:40.000
Yeah. No, I I think that's an Exot, too. Is that just? It's just.
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:54.000
It's from what I started practicing law when I first came up here in 2,005 is just like collaborative law was, you know, the redheaded stepchild of family law and divorce, and it shouldn't be it should be it would be nice to be in a world where cloud
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:57.000
Divorces are like 95% and litigation
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:01.000
Or or yeah, collaborative divorce and interest based mediation.
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:02.000
Right.
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:12.000
Because you know not all people need that much process, but they certainly can use an interest-based facilitator to help.
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:19.000
Yeah.
01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:20.000
And exchange information, right
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:26.000
Right. So there's a kinder gentler, softer, more efficient way to get divorced, and and it's called, and it's called collaborative law.
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:27.000
Sarah, what's what's the takeaway here?
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:34.000
What's the last word that you'd want people to know about collaborative law, collaborative wars and the benefits of the
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:51.000
Well, first, I just say, if you you you know, if you if you go for a consultation, and the lawyer doesn't explain all your different process options, I would go to talk to some different lawyers, because if they're not telling you all your options, you're being forced into a
01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:56.000
litigation, process. That doesn't mean they won't be civil. But you should.
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:57.000
Okay.
01:04:57.000 --> 01:04:59.000
I mean, I'm sort of the map you should be the master of your own destiny.
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:00.000
It's like if somebody doesn't tell me there's 3 cars I can buy, but I only get one.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Whatever you know I want to know, and most like, I said, most people will not choose that if they know the full range of options available to them, I wish more attorneys would explain all process options to people so people can make an informed choice.
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:29.000
But they don't. Maybe in the future they will, but if they lose business they're not gonna tell people about it right?
01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:30.000
Yeah.
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:34.000
So I guess the biggest takeaway though, would be, you know.
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:40.000
Do this in a way that oners what's most important to you, and in most cases that's your kids.
01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:58.000
Or if you don't have kids, maybe you have dogs or cats or honors, you know just how you want to be in the world of like being kind of being coming from a place of kindness and love versus a place of fear, and you know walk out of it with some walk out of it with
01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:01.000
Integrity.
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:09.000
Or preserving your mental health and your emotional peace and serenity.
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:10.000
Yeah, definitely.
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:13.000
Our big takeaways. Too cool. Thank thank you so much, Sarah, again.
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:16.000
Thank you so much for just sharing your gosh!
01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:22.000
I I mean the only I mean this is the only way I can think of it, because I know you've been to Hawaii.
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:24.000
Have you heard the that Hawaiian word man? No
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.000
Hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:35.000
Basically sharing like your thoughts the essence of you and your mental thought processes, and just like who you are.
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:45.000
So thank you so much, Sarah. Sarah, for sharing your mono, and just stuff, you know, just being so being so vulnerable with us.
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:46.000
Thank you for having you
01:06:46.000 --> 01:07:00.000
Appreciate it. Well, well, thank you. To all the listeners out there, and thank you for listening to the Akiona law, podcast we're in, we discuss everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce until the next time.
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:08.000
Be well, thank you. This is Luli Akion of Akiona law.