020 - The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Bill Eddy and Megan Hunter

Co-parenting is hard in any circumstance, and co-parenting with someone who chooses to pursue conflict over resolution may seem downright impossible. In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Lani speaks with Bill Eddy and Megan Hunter of the High Conflict Institute about how to use BIFF (brief, informative, friendly, firm) in communications with a high-conflict co-parent.

Transcript

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4, 3, 2 and one Hello! And welcome to another. Podcast episode of Akiona law, war.

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And we discuss all things and intersect within the areas of family law and divorce.

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I am Lani Akiona, and today I'm very excited to have with me some very important guests.

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We have Bill Eddie, and Megan Hunter of the High Conflict Institute.

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Welcome. Bill and Megan

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Thanks so much for glad to be on

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Well, glad. You yeah. Glad to have you guys here. So just in terms of a little bit of background for you folks, Megan is the co-founder of the high Conflict Institute with Bill.

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She's an expert and high conflict disputes her and turn Bill develop the high conflict.

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Personality, theory.

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Yeah, just bill, okay.

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Okay.

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Yes, and thank you for twisting his army

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Well, just Bill. Yep, Bill, that was his theory. And I developed the concept of the Institute and twisted Bill's arm and said, Everybody needs to know about your concept.

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Oh, Megan! Has that! You've got 13 years, and in policy legislation to digital training with the Arizona Supreme Court, and 5 years with the dolls, counties, attorney Office in Nebraska.

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You are the founder and publisher of unhooked books, a Us-based media company.

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Yep.

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Megan has trained businesses, workplace, government, public service, legal mental health, leadership groups, nonprofits in the area of high conflict, and you're the author and core.

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Are there several books yourself? And for Bill? Bill is so.

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Bill, is a developer of the high conflict theory and bill.

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You develop that theory with based on your 12 years as a family therapist, you've been trained as a meter.

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You've been trained as a lawyer. You're an Arthur about what?

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Close to a dozen books. No, no, not Colson was 2 dozen books now Arthur Co.

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Arthur.

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Yeah.

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In terms of books and manuals combined. We're over 20 now.

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Yeah, over to for 200, my goodness, Bill has a popular blog on the psychology today.

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Website with over 3 and a half 1 million views. And you and Megan also have on the High Conflict Institute.

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You folks also have a series of playbooks to help people get some more in-depth training.

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Yes.

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Well, welcome! To the show. Let's dive right in.

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So, Bill, what is a high conflict? Personality? How did you come about this

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Well, because I was a therapist for 12 years I was actually trained in 1980 in training to be a license clinical social worker, therapist.

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The Dsm. 3. The Manual for diagnosing Mental Disorders for Mental health professionals came out 1980, and where I was being trained, the 2 of the people from the committee came to our clinic and trained us in personality this disorders which was new in the

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diagnostic manual. So for the next 12 years personality disorders was part of what I did as a therapist as well as treating children and families, depression and anxiety, divorce substance, abuse, and all of that.

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So I had that background. But I really liked mediating disputes, helping people solve conflicts out of court and I'd had some cases as therapist where the family was in court.

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So I wanted to become a a mediator, and I became a lawyer in order to primarily do mediation. And then, wow!

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My first few days in court, I realized, well, wait! Everyone was talking about high conflict phase.

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This isn't the whole family. It's often an individual, and they often have a personality.

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This word, or trades, but nobody's talking about that.

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Yeah.

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And so I started talking about high conflict. Personalities tend to have traits of personality, disorders, and they have behaviors that show up with a lot of blame.

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A lot of conflict, and they often show up in families because that's the targets of blame are awesome.

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Often co-parents or children or parents, and all that.

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So I I took that mental health, knowledge, and kind of brought it into the legal contact.

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And that's the high conflict personality theory really is that the conflicts we're seeing today have a lot to do with mental health issues, such as personality. This disorders

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That's the short answer

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Okay. And how did you

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And how did you and Megan get together to form this high conflict?

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Institute Megan cause I heard you say you're twisting his arm earlier

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Yes, I did so. Sort of the the short answer is, as I was at the Arizona Supreme Court is the family law specialist.

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I had opportunity to talk to the judges frequently. That was my job, and to sort of be that liaison between all of the stakeholders of professionals in family law and parents as well.

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And there was just this, this thread, this theme of high conflict, and no one knew what to do with it.

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And the you know, I looked at the data of the parent education classes, and they worked for the majority of people.

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It was kind of the 80 over 20 rule, 20% just were not getting around 20% just weren't catching on.

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And it became sort of clear that those were the high conflict cases that the judges didn't know what to do with the lawyers, you know.

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Had these cases going on for a long, long time. There's a lot of litigation, a lot of firing, so I just got fascinated with this.

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And why there were so many really smart people around the world working on this topic.

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And yet we didn't have solutions that were, you know, had good impact and good results.

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So I just I came across an article written by a person I'd never heard of before, and his name was Bill Eddie, and it was titled How Personality disorders drive high conflict, family court disputes, and I just had a lot of light Bulb moments brought him to Arizona to

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Train, our family court judges back in 2,005, and subsequently I don't know.

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A few months later had him back to train custody evaluators.

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I thought, Wow, this would be great information for them. And just put an open invitation out and thought we'd have, you know, maybe 30 or so people.

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And we had to close the doors at close to 200, and it was all the stakeholders plus plus plus.

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And and it was it was that the topic was so. It was you know, it was a challenging topic.

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It was critical because this is alienation. This is domestic violence, child abuse, allegations, so many things wrapped up in high conflict, and so at that point I knew that if you're a professional in family law, you would need Bill Eddie's training, you need this information, and so we worked for a

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Wow, yeah.

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year, trying to just kind of experimenting to see if around the country there would be interest in this, and we did little.

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Many institutes in 6 different cities, and the result was the High Conflict Institute started in 2,008, and we haven't stopped since

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Well, congratulations. Thank you so much for starting that high Conflict institute, both of you.

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I really wish it would be something like almost mandatory for family family.

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All attorneys, or or when you're involved in these, especially the child custody disputes.

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When you see the high conflict come up, that the judges were more aware to, so it could be something that be ordered instead of like we have to take parenting seminars, so it could be.

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Oh!

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Hey, take this high conflict, parenting seminar. So we're yeah.

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Oh, we'd love that! We have one or more

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What? What, what is it called? What are the different names of the seminars that you have called

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Well, if you it depends, if you're talking about for the professionals or for the parents.

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So we have a lot of trainings for professionals in family law bills recorded, I think, a 7 h and a 12 h for family law professionals at full stop, and then a lot of other smaller seminars as well. But for families.

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We have what bill created, which is new ways for families, and it's it's teaches them.

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This very necessary skills for Bill probably want to talk about the 4 big skills that they they learn which are

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Well, number one is flexible thinking instead of all or nothing.

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Okay.

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Thinking, then 2 is managed emotions instead of unmanaged emotions, 3 would be moderate behavior instead of extreme behavior, and the fourth is checking yourself instead of checking everybody else's behavior because that's one of the Hallmarks of high conflict people is preoccupied

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Alright!

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With blaming others, and never looking at themselves. So we really but one of the things in everything we teach professionals and and everybody else.

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Parents is to keep it simple, so we've really developed simple techniques that can be really repeated over and over, that parents can teach their kids that both parents can learn.

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So they get along better easy after a separation and divorce

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And this the the class that you're talking about, that's on the High Conflict Institute.

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Website

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Okay. Okay.

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We have, we actually have 3 models of new ways, families that started out as a counseling method.

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I am retraining. We probably train probably 400 counselors by now, though worldwide.

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Then we developed it as an online course in 2,015, and then about 3 years ago, I think 2019, we added coaching with the online class.

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So 3 coaching sessions, and we train therapists, lawyers, mediators, and editors to be the coaches for those 3 practice sessions that go with the 12 online classes.

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So that's a long answer to yes, the online classes on our website, how to get trainings on our website and learning more about the coaching, etc.

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Oh, I have a question so if I'm a you know, if I'm a parent and I'm doing with a high conflict individual, someone who's, you know, who's always blaming me right?

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I you use this terminology called target a blame?

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Right? Yeah, exactly.

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Am I seeing it quickly? Okay. A high conflict vendor, a high conflict individual essentially has no accountability, no responsibility.

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They engage in blame, speak everyone else becomes a target of blame, and it's normally the co-parent.

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So if I'm like, Okay, oh, you know, this person's driving me crazy.

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So much shots and anxiety every time I do with them, like Bill and Megan help me, and I go on to your website.

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What? What's the class that you would first start off?

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Okay, first, take this class

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Oh!

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Well, the the the new ways for families online course is actually 12 sessions.

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Call, session.

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So we sign up for that. Take the first class and the first class helps you cope emotionally with the stress of this.

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All because we realize that's where people really want to start.

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They're so stressed and just kind of lost. What should I do?

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Okay.

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So we say, sign up for the whole 12 sessions, because that's gonna help you with managing your emotions, with with your thinking, helping, make proposals with responding to hostile emails, with the biff method.

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Everyone's favorite.

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Yeah.

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And yeah, and then to review, to check yourself. Am I picking on the other person?

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Or do I need to look at myself

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And how long did you, as and just for those of you who are new to to Bill and Megan?

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And the High Conflict Institute. This stands for. It's a way of responding to high conflict, blank speed called brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

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And how long is each session, is it? It's an hour

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Roughly an hour. It's it's an online class.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So it's mostly reading, watching video clips and interacting by filling in your thoughts, and how new might apply this in the future.

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So it's an interactive online course. And that's really essential for learning. Yeah.

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Okay.

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And and so roughly an hour they spend. But it's at their own direction.

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Yeah.

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So they might say. Maybe they, you know, got the kids put to bed, and now they have time, and they're gonna do a couple of hours, so they might do 2 2 of the 12 classes in one night, and most of the time this is court ordered but people can take it voluntarily, also and sometimes if

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Yes.

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it's quote ordered people start getting around to it a week before their court date so they're getting 2 or 3 h at once.

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So it's really up to the parents own schedule but they really like they don't have to drive anywhere from a class.

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Yeah.

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In today's world that's a real plus

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So if I was well, I was gonna say, if I was an attorney.

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But but I am a lawyer. Well, well.

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Like for 15 years.

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Bye, bye. So if I put this like an appearing plan that I want someone, or like both parents, to take this class, what are what are the costs that we're talking about, cause that's something the court's gonna want to know

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Well, it depends. So I saw Bill kind of hesitating there because we've been changing some things recently, but we've tried to keep.

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Just general.

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Yeah, in general, like, if you have to take it for a court ordered, you know the mandatory parent education requirement, right for your court number one.

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It's good to check with your court that they will accept the class like an online class.

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But I think it's about $139 for for that.

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And we partner with online parenting programs to provide that because they have all the things built in that are required by the courts in terms of identifying who's that? The person that's supposed to take the course is actually taking the course that kind of thing we also have it on our website at high conflict

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Institute, Com, or you can look just at new ways for families.

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And yeah, you can type that in, and it'll come up and we've kept the cost for the class relatively low.

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We try to keep it around $100 for the 12 sessions, and but we've added coaching because we really encourage people to take to include coaching with it.

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And we've made that quite reasonable so they can take it with our in-house coach or coaches, or they can take it with any of the licensed coaches that we've trained that are in 4 or 5 different continents around the world, and we have those lists on

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Our website.

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And that, and that would be I would imagine that would be a higher cost, because you're getting personalized coaching would is very helpful.

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Okay.

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Let's see here.

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Yeah, let me let me jump in here for a minute and say that the State of Alaska did training with us on this, and that they are ordering parents to take the the online class and to take the coaching Portland Oregon the the county there is also doing coaching.

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They have court counselors that are doing the coaching with the online program.

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And just yesterday I was speaking to about a dozen judges in one of our counties in California.

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That's been ordering Orange County has ordered over 6,000 parents.

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Wow!

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Take the online class over the last yeah, almost a 1,000 a year.

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And they see it so beneficial. It calms things together, but they were particularly interested yesterday in the coaching, because they can see how that plus really is a benefit for parents, especially if they're a little bit harder to learn these skills the coaching gives them 3 practice sessions.

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And it's always both parents. We always want both parents.

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Yeah.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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So if you go to court, ask for a corridor that both parents and if you have a client that says, you know, I wish I could get my my X into some kind of counseling or skill, we'll say the way to do that is volunteer, for both of you to be ordered to take the

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New ways, for families, course.

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And I go ahead.

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Yeah.

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And there are some sorry there. There are some courts that are now asking us for language that they can put in an order like maybe in the parenting order that that requires them to take, not just a class, but new ways for families, online class so

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Yeah, no, that's amazing. And I just typed in like what you said.

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Megan. I typed in new ways for family, and Boom went right to your website.

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Actually

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That's good to know

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It still works.

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I actually I put it right here in the chat. So for those of you who want to go on Youtube later on, I have it right there in the chat.

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And I'm gonna just take it off. Wow! I'm like, super excited.

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I didn't. I didn't realize it was that affordable

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And the coaching I mean the so the coaching through our website is is we've tried to keep it fairly affordable, and you know we're always willing to, to.

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You know, work with people if they have, you know, financial challenges as well, but truly it's so worth it.

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It's not just an ordinary parenting class. It's very specifically designed to address the problems that we see in these high conflict disputes.

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But it's also really great for any divorcing parent to take it as well because they'll learn these skills.

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Yeah.

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And it, you know, like I saw in the data when I worked at the court from the parent education classes.

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You know that probably the 80% would say, Oh, I did learn some things, and I had some insight into some things I was doing that I shouldn't have been doing.

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I just didn't realize it, and they adapt their behavior.

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Right.

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And so taking the class is great for everyone. Now the if if someone reaches out to one of our license coaches anywhere in the world, they set their own prices.

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Yeah.

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But we've tried to keep the class reasonable and hopefully. That helps everyone

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And then go ahead

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And typical, less expensive counseling, so that coaching doesn't.

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Wow!

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But it's not. It isn't counseling, and people need to know that we're not opening up people's feelings and how how you know the stress they're going through.

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We're teaching them skills to manage the stress they're going through.

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Right.

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And that's what continuous teaching skills

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And on the the new ways for family. So a parent, or even, I guess, like a family law, professional, such as an attorney or family law like divorce coach, could come in and get training, too.

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Oh, yeah, we give a 12 h training for this coaching, and we get therapists.

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Probably the most or therapists, but we also got some lawyers.

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Okay. Okay.

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Yeah.

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We get some mediators, we get to coaches we get to.

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And we get parent educators, people who haven't. You know they've been teaching parenting but not necessarily the worst parenting or high conflict, and they want to go in that.

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So it's really accessible. And and almost any professional would benefit from this, and can then use it.

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So we do a 12 h training in the coaching and how to correlate it with the 12 online classes

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And again, this is all at your own pace. When you have the time perfect, perfect, expect

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Yes, yes, I just, Megan said. It's between the coach and the client.

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How much it's gonna cost when they're gonna meet, are they?

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Gonna do it online? Are they gonna do it in person now?

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So it's a very, kind of self-directed thing.

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What we do is we teach skills and methods, and then professionals and individuals apply them

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:25.000

And so, as a professional, would I be working with the individual coach as well

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:26.000

Yeah.

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.000

You could be a coach yourself if you wanted, or you could have a coach that you refer to.

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:43.000

One thing interesting is unlike counselors, and lawyers who are governed by State boundaries, coaches can coach anybody anywhere in the world coaching isn't regulated, but we license our coaches so you know they've had our training.

00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:55.000

If someone says, Hey, I'm gonna do this method. And you say, I looked on the the new ways list of my confidence.

00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:05.000

I didn't see your name. Oh, yeah, I I didn't do it through them.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:06.000

Yeah.

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.000

I kind of self taught. Well, I don't recommend that we want people who've been through our training because high conflict work is often very calendar, intuitive.

00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.000

It is.

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:32.000

The opposite of what you feel like doing. Yeah, I'm sure

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.000

Okay.

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000

And I went, and I wanted to add, if I could, Lonnie, that I think in terms of the you know, for the parents like bills talking about going to a coach is fantastic for the training for the professionals that is partially on demand so 4 h you can take any time 24 over 7 and then the

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.000

Oh!

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.000

rest of the training is taught by Bill via zoom in a, you know, live scheduled training.

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.000

Okay.

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:49.000

So we tried to do 3 or 4 of those a year, so they, you know, can take them, you know, if you can't take it in the winter, you might take it in the summer

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:59.000

Okay.

00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000

Oh!

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.000

Let me just add and tell us why we should stop talking, cause we let me just add, the training is mostly practicing coaching, and because we do it online on Zoom, we get people from all over the world.

00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:15.000

So you may be doing a practice exercise with somebody from Australia or someone , and in Scotland, or someone in Canada.

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:25.000

And then we rotate so you get 2 or 3 different people, and so you may be, you know, working with somebody as 4 in the afternoon for you.

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:26.000

Hmm.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:27.000

And it's 8 in the morning for them it's the exact same skills.

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:29.000

Yeah.

00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:36.000

And all I met at Scotland in particular, is a country that's looking at.

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.000

Oh, wow!

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.000

Kidding.

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.000

Perhaps, taking this nationwide, they're doing a pilot project coaching with the online class. So we're we're really excited at how it's

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:51.000

Well as a family law. Attorney, you know. Sometimes I get I I feel like I'm just in this this cycle of just promoting conflict so it's nice to have this resource out there to figure out.

00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:59.000

Okay. How do I de-escalate conflict?

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:00.000

Right.

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:08.000

Not only communications between the client and coaching them, and how this is how to communicate to your co-parent, but then we, the other attorney, as well

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:14.000

Absolutely, and what we find is we're now teaching lawyers how to use Biff with other lawyers.

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:20.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:21.000

Oh, yeah.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:28.000

Because because lawyer conversations can beat up online. And it's always fun showing some of the terrible examples.

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.000

Hi

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:33.000

And then some good responses. So it's writers have to learn this as well

00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.000

And it's

00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.000

In fact, there'll be a fifth for lawyers book coming out next year.

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:45.000

Yeah, yeah, get your

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:46.000

Yeah.

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000

Yeah, you're the first to know you're definitely the first to know

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:56.000

No kidding. Oh, that's you heard in your first folks on the Akkiana law, podcast yeah, in fact, I just got, I got one of those emails that started off with it sounds to me like you're making excuses from another lawyer, and right?

00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:06.000

Away I'm like, oh, no, she did it, and I was ready to like fire off an email and just be like, you know, I'm just gonna just take you down.

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.000

And and just be like you know what? No, just just shut your mouth and don't send it.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:19.000

Because I couldn't think of anything nice to say what I should have done is open up my best book, but I was just too mad.

00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000

Oh!

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.000

So I just like knows I actually had my system, like, you know.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.000

What can you take care of responding to this email for me?

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000

Cause I'm afraid whatever I'm gonna say is gonna sound snarky.

00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:30.000

Got you

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.000

But but yes, and one thing about your I have to tell you about your training bill.

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.000

I took that it was just in the fall I took that advance.

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:42.000

Alright! Right!

00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.000

It was mediation for high conflict, personalities and a woman and one of my man.

00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.000

It was hard. I mean, it's so when you talk about it sounds so easy, and then we get into the practice groups.

00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:55.000

We're like, yeah, like, wait, what? But but one of the women in my pods?

00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:03.000

I actually ran into at the association of the the A.

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:04.000

Great

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:05.000

Fcc conferencing in Las Vegas, and I ran into her and we're like, Hey!

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:17.000

And it was just. It was just so amazing to see someone in that training and then seeing them live in in person, and then talk about your training and just just be really excited. And just be just yeah.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:20.000

I think it's great. More people have the same background.

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:21.000

Yeah.

00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:25.000

Knowledge and the same skills and tools. It just calms things so fast.

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000

Yeah.

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:28.000

It's like, Oh, good! They they speak my language

00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:35.000

Right, right, so what we're gonna get into you wrote this book during the pandemic.

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000

What came up. It came out during the pandemic.

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:42.000

Is that what it was in 2,020

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:43.000

Okay. And the book is

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:50.000

Yes, November 2,020. Yeah. We finally caught up on some writing with staying at home in our home offices

00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:01.000

Oh, there you go, and I'm glad you did, because you came out with Beth, which is your guide to difficult co-parent text emails and social media posts so important.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:14.000

And one thing that I really love about this book. And this is why you, as co-parents, have to get it is that there's so many good examples within the book about how to respond to things.

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:22.000

Parenty plan changes, activities, doctors, appointment medical decisions where you give concrete examples of that high conflict personality that blame, speak and what's not a good response.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:32.000

And what is a good response can you define? Because I've been using blame?

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:37.000

Speak a lot. Can you tell us out there what is blame? Speak

00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:46.000

Well, blame speak is kind of the language that's really going around a lot today where people just come out full intensity.

00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:52.000

It's all about you. It's all your fault with the name of our podcast.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:53.000

Surprisingly.

00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:57.000

Hey? That again, the name of your podcast

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.000

It's it's all your fault.

00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.000

Oh, okay. I love that

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:06.000

Yeah, it's a subtitle. It's it's dealing with high conflict.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:15.000

People something like that, but the title is, it's all your fault, which is really, when you think about the number one theme of brain blame, speak, is people put it a 100% on the other person and none on themselves.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:24.000

And they feel self righteous about it like they have the right to blast you emotionally.

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:35.000

You know you are the worst parent in the city or in the on the planet, or you know, and they talk with exaggerated emotions like that.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:45.000

It's it's all blame not taking responsibility as a lot of all or nothing to the speaking, so that, you see the words are used.

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:58.000

It's like 100, this 0%, that. And but it kicks you in the gut like you feel emotionally hooked that you you really we want to help people get unhooked.

00:28:58.000 --> 00:28:59.000

Making can talk about unhooked, but what we wanted to do is is help.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:08.000

People overcome, responding to blame, speak with counter-blame, speak, and that's the temptation.

00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:18.000

So becoming aware not only of other people doing it, but of trying to overcome that yourself, and you can.

00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.000

And that's we've been teaching Biff since March of 2,007.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.000

So we're we're going. That's what 1617 years.

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.000

Wow! Wow!

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:35.000

Let's see right now. 16 years. Yeah, we're going on 16 years with this.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:43.000

And the feedback we get is people said, you know, with some practice, I really I really get it.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:48.000

They should be, they should be. It's so hard

00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:49.000

Yes.

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:53.000

And parents are so proud of their Biff responses. I've had parents say, yeah, look what was written to me, and look at what my response was, and I'm like way to go.

00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000

Yeah.

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:56.000

You calm the conversation just like that

00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.000

I wanted to. There's I made a note here about blame.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:19.000

Speak, blame, speak is a way of getting attention at a time of rapid change, a way of being heard, and not ignored often by people who have a great fear being ignored or marginalized, and I think it's really important to note that you say here in this in your book that the

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:20.000

Blame speak is not about us. It's really about you said right here.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:23.000

It's about the blame speakers in ability to manage his or her emulsions and behavior.

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.000

So Megan, how do you counteract blame?

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:35.000

Speed

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:42.000

Well, if we go back to what you were talking about when you wanted to respond to that email, you were in your reactive mode, because that's just human.

00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:48.000

When we get some nasty email. And it's just you just want to respond.

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.000

And we're all in a hurry, and we're stressed out.

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:57.000

So, the way I kind of looked at being emotionally hooked is your heart rate.

00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:03.000

You might feel your heart rate going up. You might feel that, urge to just you just know you're ticked off you just.

00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.000

I wasn't mad. This person stupid, you know.

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000

You might be blaming them or dissing them in some way, or you may just dread even reading that email or seeing that email.

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:19.000

Those are pretty good indications that you're emotionally hooked.

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:29.000

So that's when you just have to stop yourself and respond, you know, with Biff and not give counter-blame speak, and it's it can be tough.

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:33.000

I mean, we've all been there, and we've probably all written emails that we regret.

00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:38.000

I know I have, and it blows things up so it takes a certain amount of discipline.

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.000

But it Biff! Really is the antidote to to blame.

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:51.000

Speak, and you know, I think of a an email, a conversation that was going back and forth with a certain individual.

00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:56.000

And I, you know you just kind of in the mode, and you're just emailing back and forth.

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:04.000

And you know it's damping up a little bit, but you're busy with other things and answering other emails.

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.000

Oh!

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.000

And you finally realize I've got. I need to, Biff, or else this is gonna go on forever, right?

00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:10.000

Because now I feel like I'm getting ticked off and fill a little bit attacked.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:22.000

I'm you know this. It's getting personal, and so I've you know, been disciplined and forced myself to piff, and instead of getting something back, that's a ugly and nasty, I got back.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000

Oh, okay.

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.000

Okay, thanks. And it's the most empowering thing in the world.

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.000

And you're like, you know, I am so powerful right.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:36.000

No, but it's it really like, Bill said. It's counterintuitive.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.000

Yeah.

00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:50.000

But once you get it, and you have that sense of empowerment, it's like you want. It's like a drug.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.000

Hmm.

00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:00.000

You want it again. I want to biff again, because it's so good, and it's I teach it in the workplace as a time management tool, because you think about all the time you spend emailing.

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.000

Okay.

00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:07.000

And not only just writing the emails, because that can be the quickest part, the perseverating about it in your mind all night, or taking up your workday is really a big, you know, to time management. Tools.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:12.000

So Biff is a time management and risk management. In a way, tool

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:30.000

And again, this Biff is talking about responding in a brief, informative, friendly, and firm manner, and, as you say in your book, Bill Biff helps you to focus on writing carefully rather than emotionally reacting, and as Megan was talking about her example, writing.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.000

A Beth email can influence can influence the other person's response to you.

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:47.000

If you can respond calmly, it can actually help the other person manage their own fearful or angry response, and only that you, like you talk about in the book.

00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:51.000

The whole point of Biff is that you want to end the conversation.

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:52.000

You don't want to get in that back and forth angry email exchange.

00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:57.000

And being that heightened, elevated, emotional state.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:06.000

And so in a way to me the best, the a really good difference is, either you get that nice email Megan, or you get nothing at all right?

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:07.000

That's awesome that you know.

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:10.000

Yeah, yeah. And it, it's it's huge. Yes.

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:15.000

It's

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:16.000

Yeah.

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.000

Sometimes it's really escalated, and then you don't get a response and you go ease.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:21.000

Yeah.

00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.000

You know, we finally reach that place of peace, but in many ways you know, I want to reinforce.

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:31.000

What you're saying is you can influence the other person's response, and the firm.

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.000

It's powerful

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.000

Of friendly and firm doesn't mean harsh.

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000

Yeah.

00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.000

It means, and the hostile conversation, and that's that's the key.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:42.000

And like Megan said, when you do that often people appreciate it it's like, Thank you.

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:51.000

Or you know I was so upset, you know I'm sorry I said such and such, and thank you for being understanding.

00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:59.000

I've had feedback like that from from clients and and other people that they often they really are venting and and they've lost awareness of that.

00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:09.000

And when you respond with a biff and kind of we don't need to go into venting, we're just doing a bit they're like relieved by it.

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:19.000

So it's so important that you can influence the other person by doing a bit

00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:20.000

And like you said, Oh, I'm sorry. Go real. Go ahead and make

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:21.000

And no, I'm sorry. Sorry we're talkers here at Hdi, aren't we?

00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:37.000

So in that example I was giving of my own bit experience in that particular case, the individual that was email emailing me needed to feel superior.

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:38.000

Oh!

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000

The person was saying. You know you just don't understand what I'm saying.

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:48.000

You don't you know you misunderstand, and it's just, you know, a little emotionally hooked.

00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:55.000

But I biffed and it calmed that person's fear of maybe feeling inferior.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:02.000

This person really needed to feel superior, and so I allowed, by using Biff, I didn't escalate the fear and it said it de-escalated it.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:11.000

It calmed the individual, and I got that. Oh, okay, thanks is the best email I ever received.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000

Yes.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:20.000

Can you get? Can you give us a brief example of what you said to that person?

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:21.000

Yeah.

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:29.000

Oh, I think it was, you know I had to stop myself from defending myself like I no, actually, I did understand what you said, and I wanted to have a little head wagon there, but but I didn't say that I didn't type it.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:35.000

I think I probably just said something like well, thanks for the information I I kind of understand what you're saying, and you know hope you have a good weekend.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.000

Something like that. And that was it. And it was okay. Thanks.

00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000

Oh, okay. Okay.

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:48.000

Get it just stopped the whole back and Forth exchange I don't even remember what the the issue was, and it doesn't matter, because, you know, in high conflict as Bill his. This is one of his best quotes the issues, not the issue.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:37:02.000

Anything can be the issue it's, you know, they can make an issue of of anything so so it's just in how you handle it.

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:10.000

And I, think for me, I've gotten into kind of a routine where you don't even have to try hard with Biff.

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.000

You just kind of go, hey? Thanks for the information. Thanks for the feedback.

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:18.000

Thanks for your email. I'll take a look and get back to you.

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.000

Have a good weekend. You know what I mean. It's just like you.

00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000

Oh, I love that

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:32.000

Just avoid all the issues you don't make it about you, and that's the number one thing I've been really harping on lately is you've just got to stop making it about you, because if you do, it just doesn't matter.

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.000

It.

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.000

Don't take it personal, like the 4 agreements.

00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:35.000

Alright!

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.000

The first re first agreement. Don't take things personally.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.000

Yeah.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000

Right. Yes, Don Miguel Ruiz, I'm a fan

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.000

Money. Lonnie, do you want an example from the book?

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.000

Yeah, yeah, I. Yes, let's let's go for. But I was.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:48.000

I can give a fairly quick one

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:55.000

I was gonna say, really, because I mean, we're talking about this. But then we're we're not really okay.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:58.000

Yeah.

00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.000

Right.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:02.000

Right.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.000

So first, let's get into brief. Right brief is 2 to 5 sentences, and then you go into informative, which is, should I

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:13.000

Information. All that you need is information you don't need to defend yourself.

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000

Opinions.

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:16.000

No emotions, no no attacks, judgments, opinions, all of that.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.000

It's just and I, and we often say, Just think of the who, what, where, and when?

00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:23.000

That's the kind of information that that

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:27.000

Who, what, where, and when, who, what, where, when? 4 things

00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:28.000

Yeah, yeah, we don't appeal to memorize too much.

00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:36.000

But that idea that it's about logistical information.

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.000

And then friendly, and then firm, that you end the hostile conversation.

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:46.000

So I like. This is a good, fairly quick example. This is on page 83 of the book.

00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.000

Huh!

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:52.000

If people get the book. So this is Carlos's email to Maria.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.000

Cool.

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:54.000

When I got Junior to today he had an ear infection and needed to be taken to the doctor.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:02.000

The doctor said it was out of. He got sick at your house over the weekend, and all caps.

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:14.000

You did nothing about it! Exclamation Mark, he prescribed antibiotics which you will need to make sure he takes twice a day in his ear.

00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:20.000

I'm sending the bottle with him to school tomorrow, so make sure he has it in his backpack when you pick him up once again.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:29.000

You have been all caps irresponsible about Junior's health care, and I have to clean up after your irresponsibility.

00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:38.000

I will discuss this with my lawyer, and decide whether to return to court to reduce your parenting time for the health and safety of our.

00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.000

So that's kind of a key in the gut.

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.000

Wouldn't you say

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:50.000

Yeah, I would. I would feel sorry. I wanna be like screw you.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:51.000

Yeah.

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.000

What's wrong with you people.

00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000

How dare you talk? What's your problem? Right?

00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:02.000

That's right far gets to blame. So, anyway, and I wanna give credit to Megan here for developing the Biff checker.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.000

Okay. Okay.

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:08.000

So Maria writes, writes a draft herself, says Thank you for taking junior to the doctor.

00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000

So that's friendly. I'll follow the directions for his medication.

00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:19.000

I was not irresponsible with Junior he had no signs of an ear infection when he was with me.

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:20.000

I'm fairly sure the doctor didn't tell you.

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.000

Body, bloody bloss. So now you go through the biff.

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.000

Checkl. Was that brief? Yeah, it's a paragraph.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:33.000

Was that just straight information? Hmm, maybe not. Just straight information.

00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:40.000

Maybe was that friendly? Hmm! Maybe it starts out friendly.

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:47.000

Was it firm? Hmm, maybe. But you know, Carlos is going to react to that.

00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:51.000

That have advice. We have the 3 A's good.

00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:56.000

Have advice which isn't a good idea. No, it didn't have advice.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.000

Did it have admonishments? That's not a good idea, either.

00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:05.000

Well, maybe the comment about the doctor felt like she was admonishing him.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000

Did it have apologies and apologies are great, but they're not good with high conflict people.

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.000

Okay.

00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:26.000

They turn it into ammunition against you, and, for example, victims of domestic violence are often apologizing for this and that to calm down their their partner, but we don't recommend that at all.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:30.000

You don't need to do that. That puts you in a one down position.

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.000

So in this case, there's no apologies. But could she write it better?

00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:38.000

So tell me what you think about this, Carlos. Thank you for taking junior to the doctor.

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:46.000

I will follow the directions for his medication. Junior had no signs of an ear infection, while with me, as you may know, the symptoms can come on very quickly.

00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:58.000

I will keep you advised of Junior's condition while he is with me, and that's it.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:07.000

Did that feel different, that feel different from her first attempts where she was criticizing him back?

00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000

It.

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:12.000

Yeah.

00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.000

I I think that what's amazing is how it feels to hear a difference once.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:20.000

And that's

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:21.000

Yeah.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:26.000

That's one example. But there's 28 examples in the book, and there's a list in the back, and if anybody has it, and they haven't found it, it's on page 2, 1928 examples.

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:29.000

And it's a real resource

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:33.000

Yeah, look it on that. And, in fact, true. I was reading reading the book as like, Oh, gosh!

00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:34.000

I wonder if there's something that can just easily summarize all these examples?

00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:39.000

And it's like, Oh, yeah, there it is, just right there.

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.000

And the example to give our like school schedule. Sorry gatekeeping.

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:48.000

So let's you talked about one thing you wanna avoided.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:53.000

Beth is the 3 A's which is, and oh, gosh!

00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:54.000

Advice

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:59.000

It's inv advice, apologies, and

00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000

Hi! Right! Good!

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.000

Admonishments, that one

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.000

Oh, and the so let's get into why you want to.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:16.000

Well, you covered already. Why, you want to avoid apologizing because you're giving that high conflict personality like you said in your book.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:17.000

Yeah.

00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:28.000

You're gonna latch onto it, and they're always gonna like they're gonna you came in really good example, Bill, on your book about you're doing a mediation.

00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.000

No.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:30.000

And the husband brought out this letter. The wife had written, I guess, years ago, basically apologizing.

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:38.000

And you he he brought that letter to see like look! See, she was wrong then, and now she's wrong now

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.000

It's all her fault. Okay?

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:41.000

Yeah, it's all our fault. So I thought that that was really just powerful right.

00:43:41.000 --> 00:44:00.000

There, usually with a high conflict person. You can engage in that social, nicety of apologizing cause.

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.000

There it is!

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.000

They're gonna hold on to it and like you said, always say you're wrong, and you don't want to give a Donald trump aonishments, because it and I'm an English major.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:05.000

Believe it or not.

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000

It's a hard word

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:10.000

I blame it on the retainer. I warn I was younger

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.000

Well, and and it could be I you could just call it finger wag.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:18.000

Don't give a finger wag an admonishment's like a finger wag right

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:19.000

Yeah.

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.000

Okay, yeah, there you go. Don't. Don't add like your parent talking down to the child.

00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:29.000

And another thing that you said is, don't give advice, because that can put the other person on the defensive.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:48.000

And you know with advice. You know we we both do a lot of consultation, and I've done several bit consultations with parents of adult children like in college or young adults, and those are the ones most likely to try to give each other advice.

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:53.000

So mom says, John Johnny, you know the people you're dating.

00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.000

You really need to, you know, do this, this, this and this.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:06.000

And John writes back, Mom, you really need to get off my back and while you're at it, you really need to find something to do.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.000

Yeah.

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:08.000

During the day, besides thinking about me, and so that's the age group that does the most advice.

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:12.000

And it's so fun to help them pull back from giving each other advice.

00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:17.000

So it isn't just divorce. It's every aspect of life, especially family life, can benefit.

00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:25.000

But I also thought of something I want to reinforce.

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:47.000

You know, Megan was saying in the workplace, and your listeners also have God, I found that a lot of women have told me that they liked the idea of not apologizing in their Biff because in the workplace they find that they often are apologizing too much as a way to kind

00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:51.000

Of manage, especially if it's mostly mail like a high tech company.

00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:58.000

We have dealings with high tech companies, and they're mostly men and women in that culture find themselves trying to call people by apologizing.

00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:03.000

And and that puts them in a weaker position. So it's really helps to know don't apologize.

00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.000

You don't have to, and people are telling us you know, we're okay without having to apologize.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:15.000

So I think that helps

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:20.000

And you made a suggestion that instead of saying, I'm sorry you can say you can use a word sadden.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.000

I'm saddened. We're in. The situation.

00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.000

Is, that

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:28.000

Yeah, so go ahead. So what what happens is people say, well, I'm sorry to see you in this situation.

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.000

How? How's that sound? And I say, Yeah, I understand that.

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:43.000

But when you say that to the person what they latch onto is that you're saying sorry.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:47:01.000

And they M. Somehow you're responsible for them being in that situation, and so it's an easy word to switch with saddened. I'm saddened to see you're in that situation, and I am and that way I'm not saying it's my fault and I conflict people you say I'm

00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:06.000

a little bit sorry I did a little bit of this wrong.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.000

Hmm.

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:09.000

What they hear is, it's all your fault. So that's why we say, avoid even the little.

00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:22.000

Apologies, language. So I'm saddened, and it's fine because we teach people in Canada and Australia this, and there Canada said, Oh, sorry all the time, you know.

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000

Oh, okay.

00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:33.000

So I didn't hear. Sorry this sorry that, and I thought they'd push back on it. But they say, no, we agree with you that we, we say sorry too much

00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:37.000

No, I did work at with the Canadian, and she did say, Sorry a lot.

00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.000

Yeah, it's automatic. It's part of the language

00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:50.000

Yeah. And and, Megan, would you use the word? I'm saddened in a workplace setting, like I'm sadden because it's deadline

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:55.000

I mean you could the thing I've learned is you just try.

00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:06.000

You try it and see. See how it lands, and often what you'll find is, you know, what basically, what you're doing with that is what something Bill created called an ear statement, something that shows empathy, attention and respect.

00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:11.000

And I'm saddened to see that you're frustrated about this or I hear, yeah, I hear you.

00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:12.000

I get it. I see you're frustrated.

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:20.000

You know, those are ear statements, and those usually calm people before you really engage further with them. And that's kind of a key.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:21.000

First stuff, so I think you could say that. And if someone erupts, then you say, Oh, okay.

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000

And and you move on to, you know. Try another ear statement.

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:29.000

So that's kind of the fun thing about this is, it doesn't have to be so challenging.

00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:45.000

And I think a lot of lot of people really are so frustrated and emotionally hooked, and think that that the high conflict individual is just too challenging for them.

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:55.000

And it's really, actually super simple. You just have to remember and be disciplined and you just try something if it doesn't work, you try again.

00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:07.000

I hope that makes sense it. It's but hopefully it takes some of the the mystery or or fear out of trying trying this, because it's it's just it's kind of learning a new way to respond instead of just the old ways.

00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:08.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.000

We've been doing it.

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:23.000

Right, and and Bill gives some I know, you know, as I read this book, right as I just, and you read the the high conflict emails as I'm reading them, I can feel myself getting worked up.

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:24.000

And the brain. Oh, you know the amygdala automatically goes through me.

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:31.000

Goes into fight more so in my head. I just feel like I'm coming up with all these things to argue.

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:34.000

And I because I feel like I have to defend myself.

00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:39.000

But again, what's so helpful in your book is that you give concrete examples of what?

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:52.000

Not to say how you can engage in Beth, and for me, like I need to see those examples, because, like you said, like, Megan, it's a way that you've got a it's a it's a new way of saying, communicating that you've got to train yourself to do but the good

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.000

News is that you can. It just takes practice

00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:59.000

Right and even high conflict. People learn this, and sometimes we get people saying, You know, I think I'm a high conflict person.

00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:08.000

Do you have something for me? I'm worried. I'm gonna lose my job or my family, or something.

00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:09.000

Oh!

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.000

And and one of the great places to start is Beth.

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.000

If you learn Biff, it doesn't just change how you write.

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:23.000

It changes, how you talk, and I think it changes how you think, because you you check yourself more.

00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:26.000

This is a great method for checking yourself

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:37.000

And and nobody wants to be stuck in that emotionally high level where you just in your gut, you feel sick, and you feel anxious. Cause, like you talk about in the book right?

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:41.000

Because what it is true is that you said, it's almost like in a way, it's like a drug.

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.000

You get hooked, you get hooked to that drug, and you send out that email.

00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:50.000

You feel good, but then that's quickly replaced by fear and anxiety about getting that attack back

00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:57.000

Right. It's the 20 s pie, you know, and then it runs out.

00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:58.000

Yeah, whereas with this.

00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:03.000

So many people just don't know what to do.

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.000

Yeah.

00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:11.000

Instead. And they see the role models of society using blame, speak so much that they just feel like that's what you're supposed to do, or people will look down on you, and people are so relieved to learn, not only they can do this, method.

00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:27.000

But that a lot of people are doing this method. We, we estimate with the book and our seminars.

00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:28.000

Wow!

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.000

We probably taught about half a 1 million people this method and most people that learn it teach at least one other person.

00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:37.000

So I'm guessing. Maybe a 1 million people now are using Biff responses, which is very exciting. Yeah.

00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:39.000

Oh! Wow! That!

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:43.000

And some workplaces are adopting Biff in their in their policies.

00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:44.000

Yeah.

00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:52.000

Biff is how we communicate and it's not just, for you know, responding to a high conflict email, it's a new way of communicating in the workplace.

00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:58.000

So it keeps it, as you know, as a stress reduction tool, a time management tool, and all of that.

00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:59.000

Yeah.

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:00.000

Just right. Biff

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.000

You know.

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:03.000

And it can change the company culture. That's what I think.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:04.000

Yeah.

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.000

It's done some great things with teaching a whole company.

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.000

Oh!

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:11.000

Yeah, that's exciting.

00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:17.000

That this method. There's nothing else that itself, although people take training, and that's what she's done with them.

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:21.000

Yeah, that's really important. I think that would be. You know, I'm I'm just I'm a small firm, but I'm like, man.

00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:26.000

I would love to do that for my employees, because just it doesn't help.

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:30.000

If you have the training, then your employee is sending out that email, the other side

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:38.000

Yeah, well, and it helps so much.

00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:39.000

Coming out next year.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.000

Well, that's the new book is Biff for lawyers and law offices coming all. When does that come out, Megan? This fall?

00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:46.000

Yeah.

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.000

Yeah.

00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:56.000

Probably winter, 2,024. So it takes a little while to get those out, but yeah, that'll be a really fun fantastic.

00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:03.000

Oh, okay.

00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:04.000

Hmm.

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:10.000

I was just gonna say in, I think November I did a training for a family law firm because they, the principal, wanted everyone in her firm to know how to respond, not only to clients, but to each other within the workplace, and they, work remotely which I believe can make things even more

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:11.000

Yeah, right.

00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:29.000

difficult because you are separated one more degree, and even in the workplace I know, I think if I were standing talking to that employee in that moment, I probably would not be as sharp, or I would change you know, the email would change so I think with so many people working remotely it's probably

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:45.000

behooves everyone to learn how to biff and and particularly lawyers, because, I mean, you'll all know every lawyer listening knows that they've got so many lawyer letters and emails that are just harsh on purpose. And it's it's really hard to take

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:53.000

Not only that, too. I kind of. I kind of feel like, just in terms of the pandemic, and it's almost like there's everything kind of just slow down in family long and now it's like this boomerang effect.

00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:56.000

Or every everybody's, just twice as busy as they were before the pandemic, and a lot of attorneys are just stressed out.

00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:08.000

The clients are stressed out. So I feel like it's and I'm guilty of this, too, like I feel like I've been more reactive and more on edge.

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:16.000

These past couple of months, and I completely forgot about this. So I'm I'm glad we're having this conversation, because it doesn't.

00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:27.000

It doesn't feel good, and when you were talking about the example about the email, Megan, and how you responded just like your it just like immediately call me down as well.

00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:28.000

She's like, well.

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:29.000

Oh, it did! It says like a small victory, and obviously I haven't forgotten it.

00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:35.000

And it's you know it's not like you.

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:36.000

Alright!

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.000

Come across super high conflict emails every day. But when you do and you use Biff, it is really empowering.

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.000

And you remember it.

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.000

It's. It's a super power, that's what it is.

00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:43.000

Yeah.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:44.000

Hmm.

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:47.000

This is super power that we can all learn.

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:48.000

Yep.

00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.000

Use your superpower. Everybody's got it if they use it.

00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:52.000

Hello!

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:56.000

Yeah, yeah, and I wanted to give a really good example to in your book about how?

00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:06.000

Was this email here you talked about how one thing you can do when you're responding to a you know, an ascendiary, or just one of those blaming emails is that you edit the email where you take out all of that language.

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:22.000

So your only focusing on what the actual problem is, and from there you gave an example of how the person drafted his, his email response.

00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:26.000

And for some reason I can't pull it up. Okay.

00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:28.000

So you edit out right? You're talking about you edit out.

00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:34.000

Hold unnecessary comments in the message, so that you can only address what's necessary, and this helps avoid someone from overreacting to the emotional statement. So that's what it is.

00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:38.000

You remove all the emotional statements you're you're an idiot.

00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:49.000

You're the most worst parent ever like. If you move that. And there's probably like 2 sentences that you just really need to address

00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:56.000

Well, that's that's really important point. And I wanna make sure we give credit to Kevin Chaffin, who's one of the co-workers on the book for coming up with that?

00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:04.000

And let's just look at the example I read earlier for you.

00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:14.000

Is that that long, long paragraph that Carlos writes to Maria in there?

00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:21.000

There's a there's like one, maybe 2 sentences that are are useful.

00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:42.000

And I'm sending a bottle with him to school tomorrow, so make sure he hasn't his backpack when you pick him up, and you know the first sentence, when I got January today, had it your phone need to be taken to the doctor there's 2 sentences out

00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:43.000

Yeah.

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:49.000

Of maybe 10 and so you cross out all the others, and then you answer those 2 sentences, and and that all the heat is gone.

00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:52.000

So I'm glad you raised that

00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000

Yeah, no. I thought that was, I thought that was just brilliant.

00:56:54.000 --> 00:57:05.000

Because it's like, yeah, that's right. If you take out all the emotional respond, the blink, speed and accusations you can really address the heart of the issue.

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:09.000

And I think it's important to know that you talked about one of the purposes of Beth.

00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:18.000

The goal is to communicate about problem solving without continuing an argument or creating defensiveness in the other parent.

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000

Right.

00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:30.000

And it's again like you said, you know, I think I've got it. I feel like I should maybe put that in a posted and put it on my computer because that it applies to like you were saying Megan to a co-worker to yeah

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.000

Family member, anyone, I mean, we, we digital communication takes up so much of our lives.

00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:40.000

And I don't think we should rely solely on technology and software programs.

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:47.000

I think we need to edit ourselves, and this is good human growth, right?

00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000

Right.

00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:49.000

Particularly in this time of high conflict, where we are in the world.

00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:56.000

So to learn these skills helps you across the board in any any situation.

00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:57.000

So if you learn this for co-parenting, and then you have to use it in the workplace. Wow!

00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:06.000

You're probably going to grow in the workplace, and then you might have to use it with your, you know, a family member or a neighbor, or something and it's it is definitely.

00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:15.000

You know you call it a superpower. It's also a game changer.

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:16.000

Oh!

00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:19.000

And once you get it, it's it's just it's it's a game changer.

00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:36.000

It's it's a life-changer, and I mean imagine being able to have a co-parenting life that is not rife with just pages and pages and millions of pages of texts and emails going back and forth, that are horrible that can and dreading seeing that next

00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:41.000

message. You really can turn these things around for a lot of people

00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:51.000

And again, how you can turn it around is you can go to get Bill's book I got it on Amazon. I got it.

00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:59.000

I I get hired copies and I get it, Viakindo, and it's Beth, your guide, to difficult co-parent text emails and social media posts.

00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:08.000

You can also go to the High Conflict Institute and tons of resources there for dealing, getting that training, new ways for families.

00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:12.000

I just typed in new ways for families and got taken specifically to your website.

00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:30.000

So thank you so much, Bill and Megan, for being on the podcast today and just gosh helping us to just, oh, gosh, helping us to just engage and communicate in a better way

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:35.000

And thank you, Lonnie, and your energy is so positive and positively contagious.

00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:40.000

I really appreciate being a new program

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:41.000

Okay.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:42.000

It is, it is, and to have someone like you that's that's used this and knows the value of it.

00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:50.000

And it's cool. And I also want to mention that we have something new in the last few months.

00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:54.000

We haven't really announced it too loudly yet, because we have a little more work to do on the website.

00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:06.000

But we have a live lab where people can like. If you're a parent, you can just log on, and you pay a little bit and work with one of our coaches just briefly to learn how to write a biff response. Right?

01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:17.000

So just be watching for that best thing to do is sign up for our newsletter on our website, and that way you'll get alerted when we have new things like that coming out.

01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:18.000

Oh, okay.

01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:21.000

And when Bill's new biff for lawyers and law firms comes out, that's a really good way to get all that info

01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:22.000

Right.

01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000

Oh, my goodness, I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to do that.

01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:27.000

And for those of you who like listening to podcasts, check out.

01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000

It's all your fault, high conflict, people podcast.

01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:35.000

With Bill and Megan

01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:36.000

Alright. Thank you.

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:46.000

Thank you. Thank you. Guys again, both, this is Lonnie Akiona of the Akiona law podcast where end we talk about all things that intersect in the areas of family law and divorce.

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:57.000

Thank you for joining us today until next time. Be safe and be well

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:57.000

Okay.