023 - The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Kate Mageau | Part 1

In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Lani speaks with mental health counselor, author, and domestic violence survivor, Kate Mageau about how she used her own experience with domestic violence to help others.
Find Kate Mageau here : www.katemageau.com

National Domestic Violence 1-800-799-SAFE 

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Violence Prevention https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/fastfact.html

Transcript

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Yes, the captions on right now, test, test, test. Okay, as close to the countdown.

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Hello, welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast. We're in. We talk about anything and everything that intersects, we're in, we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law, collaborative divorce and divorce.

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And domestic violence, iintimate partner survivor counselor, Kate. Mageau.

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Yes, thank you. Thank you so much.

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Did I say the last name correctly? Okay. Thank you, Kate and, you know, so glad to have you here today talking about this very important topic of domestic violence.

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And intimate partner violence known as DV for short for domestic violence and internet partner violence is IPv.

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And you yourself and I love how you say that you're a survivor and not a victim.

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And. What we're gonna get in today. Is you wrote a series of books. A series of books called The Morning Signs.

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And it was a memoir about your experience of domestic violence. Can, can, can you, Go into that.

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What prompted you to rate these books to create this memoir? Cause I imagine that's been pretty difficult.

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Hmm, yes, thank you. Yes, it was very, very difficult. But after I went through my experience with domestic violence and I started getting help and learning about about DV and learning about how there's all these patterns and there's all these resources out there for help.

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I was just shocked that this was all brand new information. To me that I had never known what any of it was.

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I mean, at the time I went through it, I had never heard of gas lighting before. And so.

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Hmm.

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People need to know these things. And so I thought. I need to tell my story. I kept like telling all my friends different things from the story different times and I'm like, my friends are tired of hearing about it, but society needs to know and What better way to help people so Yeah.

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I, I started writing my books. Probably like actually seriously getting into writing in 2018 and then finish writing them, just last year as I was finished in my masters of science and clinical mental health counseling.

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Adding new information I had learned along the way to support the book.

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Okay, okay, and it's 3 books. And can you take us to the different what are what is in the 3 different volumes?

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Cause you, there's a. There's a pattern that you go through with these books.

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Good question.

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Yeah, so it's, one story. But after each chapter in the story, it, I explained what the warning signs were, what the actual domestic balance was that was occurring.

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And so, After I put all that extra information into the story, it was very long. So I split it up.

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And so the first one is. Getting to know. The person that I, I end up marrying and So it's the dating and the courting and the like everything feels good.

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Up through the wedding day. That's the first book.

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We gotta get into what happened on a wedding day.

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Okay. Yeah. And then this second book is. What's the what's happening in the relationship and how does our marriage go and I'm starting to see signs at this point, but I'm.

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Again, I didn't know anything about TV, so I didn't even know that these were signs.

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Hmm.

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Until looking back and writing it and getting, you know, the help and support to do so. And then in the third book, I am Kind of figuring out.

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What should happen next in my life?

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Yeah, and I love the and folks don't feel intimidated by the 3 books because they are They are an easy read, meaning Kate is a good writer and I was like so pulled into your story, like I could feel my own.

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Emotions were heightened, elevated, you know, kind of going through what you've been through.

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And they're, and the morning signs. Oh my gosh, I just love the warning signs because you just kind of connect the dots.

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And it's so helpful to have that explained because when you're in that situation like you're saying, like a lot of this and especially it's I with Jason who was your who was your partner and intimate partner violence is is essentially domestic violence between partners and internet relationship.

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And the signs are so subtle. They're so subtle and it's so easy to see how you overlook it.

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So let's get in into, so and How long were you and Jason dating before you 2 got married?

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2 and a half years and then we're married for about 2 and a half years. So 5 years altogether, but yeah, nothing out of the norm, like I think it's perfectly common for people to be married to and have or to be dating and engage 2 and a half years and.

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Yeah. And you and you know what I love too? I love the okay. I mean, there's just so much things to talk about Party knew the warning signs were there.

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But you overlooked it because you were determined, you are in a mission, you have a life plan.

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That you're gonna get married by a certain age. And then you're gonna get a house and then you're gonna have kids and You're an optimist as well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, of course.

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So you know, you tend to believe the best in people. And you were just still determine. To make the relationship work, be on track with your life plan.

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Can you go into that? Like what are some of the warning signs that you saw in the beginning, but then you overlooked it?

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Cause you're like, I'm on this plan.

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Yes, so let me go into that a little bit because It's not so. They're not so obvious, right?

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There's little things up like him being selfish or like I think that would probably be the biggest sign.

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That was That was there in the very, very beginning. But I just thought, well, that's I, I think the thing is, I didn't think I didn't bother to stop and check in with myself about how I was feeling.

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I didn't know much about like. Connecting my mind and my body and listening to my gut instincts.

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Oh, this, this is annoying, but like nobody is perfect. I can just move on because Like everybody I meet is gonna have something annoying about them and This will be fine.

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I can work through this.

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Yeah, and you mentioned in terms like one example of itself and how to selfishness was your mentioning how after you 2 had a long day and you would be starving.

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Yeah, we gotta have dinner.

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It's not. Yeah, you wouldn't have dinner. Until after his parents house, right?

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And you told Jason that you're hungry. And it was almost as like you had a barter.

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Okay.

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With him. To get something he eat because he was hungry. So it didn't bother him.

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Did.

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Yeah. That is, being dismissive, which is a form of emotional view actually to like just not care about the other person's feelings or in this case like actual physiological needs.

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Like to eat.

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Yeah. And so can you go into that? I think what ended up happening was that I think you finally got into agree to before to go into you guys could stop and you could pick up something.

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Yeah, I guess. We, I finally like I would tell them like, Hey, we need to eat.

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And he's like, oh, I don't. Whatever, like it's not important and so.

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Yeah.

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And then like convinced him we could stop by Safeway and take something up. Like, why do I have to convince somebody to let me eat?

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You like, can I just get like some sort of a roll here or something? I don't know.

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Thank you.

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I know, I was like, oh my gosh, what she wasn't eating until like 90'clock at night, I'm like, oh my goodness.

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Right, which is also like looking back and I don't like put this thought into the story, but like.

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Basically, anytime I go to somebody's house, especially somebody's parents house, people are gonna see, are you hungry or are you thirsty?

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Can I get you anything? Like, why did that not happen? Like, family traits.

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Yeah, and I was just kinda curious to I'm like, why? I thought you were going to their house to hang on.

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I need and people may think it's, it's a small thing, but no, it's not.

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It's actually a big thing. And it like you said, it was just. The first of many signs.

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Correct.

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That Jason. Did not consider your feelings. Anyone else's feelings like you said, he was dismissive.

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And I think you even went into it even when it's it's like I what I was you like you're constantly compromising.

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You're. Constantly compromising your own needs, your own wants for Jason.

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And I think he even said like it even went into the TV shows that you 2 would wanna watch.

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Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, he had this whole list of shows that he knew would come on on different nights.

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Like literally like had it listed in a notepad of these are my shows and this is what we're gonna like we're gonna get a Tivo now and we're gonna record them and these are the ones that I've chosen and I just went with it.

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But before I started dating him, I actually had like not had cable. For the last few years, I got like documentaries delivered via DVD.

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Yeah.

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Netflix, like that's what I was into. And then, okay, we're gonna watch sitcoms.

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Yeah, so and what you didn't get to watch any of the shows that you wanted to watch was that

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Yeah.

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Hi. Preferred at that time like my strong preference was to watch documentaries. Until like things that he was just not into or okay with.

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So would he ever wanna watch one? Would he ever watch a documentary with you?

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Oh, okay.

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Oh god, I don't think he did. I think, but I think that's also part of the compromise is that I just kind of gave up asking certain things.

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It just wasn't worth the trouble. To like have another argument about it.

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Thank you. Yeah, and you know what I thought was really interesting to you gave up being a vegetarian for him.

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Oh yes, yeah.

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Yeah. Can you talk? Can you talk about that?

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Yeah, so I had, I've been vegetarian for like a couple of years, like on and off different times of my life, but at that point it's been like 2 or 3 years and.

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Yeah.

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He really only like to either go to fast food. Or to a dive bar to get wings or pizza or something.

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Yeah.

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And that's basically all you would eat. And I was like, we cannot live like this. It's not good for our health and also it's expensive we can cook.

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I don't really know how to cook. I had to learn. But And then as I'm trying to teach myself how to cook, I'm also realizing like, okay, I guess I have to make meat for him.

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That's. The only thing that will work for him and. It's too hard to try and figure out 2 meals, so.

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Yeah.

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Hey. Also, I was shocked too. I was like, she's preparing 2 meals.

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Yeah, it was just like one of those subtle compromises where I'm just like, okay, well, this is a lot of effort, it's not worth it.

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Like.

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Yeah, and it was. Yeah, it was it was funny because his diet was so limited. It was you mentioned it was pizza, burgers, and chicken shrimps.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And he lived off of cola and energy drinks. Yeah, and what kind of shocked me is that?

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You would think as a partner he would be he would appreciate you. Trying to instill healthy habits.

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We did it!

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Yes, yes. Yeah, I like my current partner. He's like, oh my gosh, I'm meeting somebody who are vegetables.

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This is great. Thank you. Like that's an appropriate response.

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I think I even read some somewhere that you had made a sauce and I think you had like Try to sneak a vegetable in it and he made of these.

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Yeah.

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You said, well, if you don't like the sauce, I'll make you another one.

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And I was like, what? Where's she? And just the fact, Kate. That you didn't know how to cook.

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And let me say whatever you do you go to town like I'm just so impressed like you go like a hundred and like 20% into into things and you know you were Like when she learned how to cook folks, like you were even, you learn how to do French cooking.

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Yeah.

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Right? And you're making like all these wonderful meals with sauces and just oh it sounded so fancy and he just would he would did not appreciate it that at all.

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Didn't care.

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No, yeah.

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Didn't care and that was kind it was sad. It was sad how you put so much time so much effort you were trying to, you were being the good wife.

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Yeah.

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And you, you know, let me let me take care of you. Let me take care. Let's do things for us and then just do have that complete.

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Man, this sucks. Cause he complained about your cooking, didn't he?

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Yeah, yeah, of course. And that's one of these things like one of these patterns in DV is the the constant.

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Well, how does that boundary question? That's not quite the word I'm looking for.

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Yeah.

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Moving the goalpost. So wherever I'm at like, okay, so let's say I cooked a meal and it's like I'm maybe.

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Yeah.

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Give a scale of one to 10 it's a 6 and that's not good enough for him or maybe it's somewhat, I'll accept it.

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So then like, okay, we'll have to make it better so then the next dinner it's like a 7 and then it's like Okay, well that's still Matt.

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Okay, well I guess I have to make it better. Like if there's no. There's no way.

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There's no, oh, this is great. I appreciate this. And so as the survivor, you're just trying to.

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Yeah.

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Catch up to where you can figure out how you can try and make him happy. Which I also learn later in life that like we cannot make someone else happy.

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Hmm.

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We can do nice things for people and have connection with people, but I can't directly affect somebody else's happiness overall.

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Right. Right. And let's get it. You use the term survivor instead of.

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Hmm. Yeah.

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Let's talk about that.

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Yeah, it's. Per one it's empowering. That's the main reason right is that I'm a survivor because I survived this relationship that had I not left.

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Right.

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I could have been murdered. In and many of these cases, it when they escalate the violence gets worse and worse and worse, a special person tries to leave, and I can leave to murder.

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So a person that was murdered by their abuser. Is a victim, a person that I was able to get out survived.

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And.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, I looked at. I love that terminology, a survivor because We survived this experience and It's hard because the, you know, the

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You know, and I, as you go more on your, you talk about in the second book how you're drinking a bottle of wine of night because you're just in a way just trying to numb things and just kind of disassociate from what you're going through in.

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I myself have been in a domestic violence situation when I was younger and it was my first significant relationship and it was often on from the age of 18 to about 25 and it was so hard to leave because then he would pull me back in.

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And to this day, I still. You know, it's hard because it's just for one thing.

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You just, you just don't, you just don't recognize that you're in it and like you when you're in it you're it's it's so hard to leave because the trauma bonding and we'll get into that but it's like even now here we are like a good

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25 years later and I feel like I still have a little bit of that PTSD for being in that relationship because every now and then I'll have a dream and in my dream he'll be there and I'm trying to get away from him and I can't.

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So it's lasting effects for sure. And I do like the term that. You know, I'm sort of being a victim, which implies almost sort of a weakness.

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I'm a survivor.

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Yeah.

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So going into. Going into, okay, so let's get into, I think another thing that we have to touch upon too is that you notice that there was also some sort of morning signs from his family.

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Yeah, can you talk about that?

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Hmm, yeah. Yeah, that was. It's harder, right? Like I feel like.

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It's hard to know because I'm not in the same close relationship with my family as I was with my husband.

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Or with his family rather But there is just

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I don't know, a few odd things that I feel like. Together make a warning sign but separately it was like well I don't know you know but like His parents didn't have any of their own friends and so that his parents consumed their lives with their children's lives.

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They're ill children.

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And so there's Yes, adult children, yes. Yeah, there's 3 children. They're all consumed.

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Together and there's just It's like their own. Version of a trauma bond perhaps, but what it this code dependency?

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Code dependency and trauma vans have a lot of overlap in meeting. But when One or more people are so in mesh with one another that their lives don't seem separate.

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Hmm.

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That's what was going on in their family. And so that codependency was already something that he was used to that then quickly forms.

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Between him and I. I think that was probably the main thing.

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Oh, go ahead.

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And you, No, I was gonna say you talked about it. In the beginning how looking back now you realize how quickly you fell into this cold dependent relationship.

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Cause you folks moved in pretty quickly together, right?

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Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I mean, we were together quite a while before getting married, but our relationship did end up moving I had moved to, Tacoma and there's the neighborhood I had chosen that I didn't really know well.

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Did not end up being safe. And so I ended up. Moving in with him and that place I was somewhat safer.

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You're right. It was a studio, right?

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And What's that? Yes, yeah, as a studio.

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Okay.

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And then our jobs said we are going to close this call center and outsource all the jobs and if you want to stay employed with us in 2,009 in a recession, then you can apply for the jobs in Las Vegas.

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And so and not only became like very fast. Like moving in within a couple of months together, I thought, well, I'll still be near my family and see.

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It's not, you know, a stretch, but then. And then we just ended up in Las Vegas.

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Yes.

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So you guys and the thing is too is that you folks were working together Working together, you're spending all your time at night and then you moving together after a couple of months of dating.

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And, you talked about how You just it just felt natural because you felt like you were in love.

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Yeah.

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What it must feel like. But looking back now. What do you see? What do you, what do you see now?

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We'll know that wasn't that was code dependency.

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Because

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Yeah, that we had completely intertwined our lives. We met at work and so we had, The same work schedule.

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Yeah.

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And we would take our breaks together. We would talk during work. We had met the same friends group during work and also like.

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I like to come on, that far away, but when you When you're kind of far away, like, okay, goes away.

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I think with traffic.

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Yeah, so I had chosen to like move to Tacoma for this job and So I want to make new friends in Tacoma.

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And so. I was just intertwined in his world with his friends, with our work friends. We would all talk about work.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:23:02.000

We would all go to the same places together. And that's how he and I ended up. You know, becoming closer, becoming together and then it was just like.

00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000

There's never any question of. Doing something different. On a day after work, it was always what are we going to do?

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:21.000

Just automatic. There is never a time where he or I said. I'm gonna go home by myself tonight or I'm gonna go see a different friend group tonight.

00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:26.000

Hmm, I see. And well, not only that, and then you're hanging out with his parents a lot too.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:36.000

Yeah, yeah, so I felt like I was part of their family really quickly, which I think also helped me feel more in love because I felt like, oh, I'm.

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:44.000

Included in his family too and I feel. That they're including me somewhat.

00:23:44.000 --> 00:24:05.000

And the thing that I think the thing that's interesting about family, you're talking about Cold, a, and how, you know But one thing that I thought was telling was just.

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:06.000

Hmm, yes.

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000

The constant complaining, teasing about the mom's cooking. And it's just like, okay, so would the dad cook then?

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:15.000

Or they just get take out all the time.

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:16.000

In summer.

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:23.000

The dad would grill in this door. Okay, right. Other than that, they would have take out and fast food pretty much.

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:28.000

Oh.

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.000

Okay.

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:34.000

Yeah, and So that's what he was used to. He was like, this is my life and Sure, people can try and cook, but it's never gonna be as good as this fast food.

00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000

So we're gonna make fun of it.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:52.000

Yeah, and you know what's and for and for me it's like my mom so my mom was a single mom and, yeah, was me my sister and growing up we always had home cooked meals.

00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:59.000

Like my mom, like we hardly went out to restaurants reheartly fast foods. And just like for me, cooking for someone is like a love language for me.

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.000

Yes.

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:05.000

Yeah, and to not and if someone were to criticize me Oh!

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.000

Yeah. Yes.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:09.000

Like it just like the grocery shopping, the prep work, the cook, and to be criticized.

00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:29.000

Like I wish now my mom would cook for me. And I couldn't like, I was in my mind, I was like, oh my gosh, how dare they criticize their mom for trying to cook, but you know, right there was a big morning sign because it just shows like this lack of appreciation.

00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:37.000

Just lack of, you know, empathy and respect for all that hard work that the mom did. And I, I think, yeah, go ahead.

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:45.000

Right. It's not just about the time and the money and the energy, but it's that love that you put into it.

00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:53.000

So it's that emotional energy you're giving, you make something nice for someone and to not have that respected.

00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000

For his mom or for me.

00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:01.000

Oh, for you. You put a lot of time into that. I was like, oh my gosh, I wanna taste, I wanna taste Kate's picking.

00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:05.000

Yeah.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.000

Hmm.

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:16.000

I've been just fabulous. I remember one time I think I made spaghetti or something and my husband whatever he made a complaint because it tasted different and I was like you know what if you don't like it, you can go ahead and make it yourself then.

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000

Right.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:26.000

Yeah. Cause it's not easy. Well, spaghetti actually is easy. That's why even more.

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:33.000

It depends on how you do it. You know, you, you can make it a more complicated spaghetti if you would like.

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.000

Yeah.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.000

Oh, the tomatoes? Really good. You get roast the tomatoes.

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:44.000

What? See that again? Whoo! And then make your sauce from that.

00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:45.000

Oh my gosh, that sounds fabulous. That's fancy.

00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:01.000

Yes. Yeah, yeah, so it depends, you know, what you wanna get into just beginning.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:02.000

Oh yeah.

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.000

Okay. And then another thing that his, okay, we're not beginning to bring the politics because you just got slammed whenever you brought up politics with your because they were Republicans, you know, liberal, but

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:12.000

But they didn't claim they're Republican. I think it will claimed it. I might have had a different reaction, right?

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.000

Good news. Siskally conservative.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:19.000

They're like, oh no. Where? Yes.

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:35.000

But she just But you just wanna even have that like this kinda like an open discourse. You were just completely just shut down and the way you're shut down, you just, it's in my head, I just felt like,

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:40.000

They just made you feel really small, I felt.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.000

How you felt?

00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:49.000

Yes. Yeah, I mean, yeah, in the first. In the first book, there's a scene of it where I'm just starting to like get to know.

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:50.000

Hmm.

00:27:50.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Them and can I talk about it and I just felt like okay I guess I'm not allowed to talk about it.

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000

Here.

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.000

And the second bucket comes up again and. And then literally like corner and back into a hallway and physically and emotionally like Back into a corner to like to not speak about it and that the political things we're talking about are health care, like human rights, you know, I'm like, I'm just, for like

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:24.000

the world also. Like, what do you mean people should have out there?

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:34.000

Yeah, and it was a Jason and his dad that back you into that corner in your apartment in Vegas, which It was sad that the dad was doing that too.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.000

Yeah.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:40.000

And, we can get, there's, there's, there's things other that happen.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:48.000

And when you talk to the data about the doubt, it's I'm staying out of it and which was really sad.

00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.000

Hmm.

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:53.000

But I want to get into 2 also too is like the teasing. There's form of teasing that his family would engage in.

00:28:53.000 --> 00:29:03.000

And then Jason would do it to you. But the teasing. It was, they call it teasing, but it was actually former putting each other down, right?

00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.000

Yeah.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:09.000

Yes, yeah, definitely they. Say things in a way that it's like, oh, it's just a joke.

00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:17.000

It's like hardy. No, I'm just teasing you. Like basically to say Don't have any feelings around this.

00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:24.000

Don't be sensitive. I can say whatever I want if I put it into a lighthearted tone.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:32.000

And I just became. Worse over time, but at initially. Okay, they're making a joke.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.000

Okay, I won't take it so hard.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:47.000

Yeah, and I remember that too yours exactly. You're saying, okay, like I'm not gonna take it so hard.

00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.000

Hmm, yeah.

00:29:48.000 --> 00:30:00.000

I' Well, in a way, you kind of have to turn off your feelings. That's how you're trying to numb or just disassociate yourself, but you, brought the disappointment, important point where you said, you know, if the teasing Makes you feel bad about yourself.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:06.000

Or her too? Like a, you know, it's not funny. You need to recognize that.

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.000

Do I see that correctly?

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:11.000

Yeah, yeah, I think that's yeah, absolutely. Cause it's hard to know.

00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:16.000

Is it teasing as a joke? Am I being too sensitive? Right, that's what our cognitive brains are doing.

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:23.000

But if we check in with our feelings, like, does this hurt? That's your answer.

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:34.000

Does this hurt? Yeah, cause if someone makes a, if someone makes a joke. At your expense and it hurts, then that's not a joke.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000

Right.

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000

That's, to me that's a passive aggressive put down.

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.000

Right. Yeah.

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:46.000

So it's, and again, that's one of the. Boring size because with emotional views.

00:30:46.000 --> 00:31:06.000

It's like layer upon layer upon layer, these little things that just take away your self esteem and with your lives being so There's just there's no separation so you don't in a way have something like a parameter to kinda check and be like, no, this isn't okay because

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:18.000

You just let things go and go and you constantly compromise. And before you know it, you're moving in Las Vegas and you never wanted to move there.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.000

You know, I'm in there, but.

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.000

I did not want to move there. Oh. I,

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:30.000

And tell me how long okay so you move in together after 2 months of dating and how much time has went by between Las Vegas.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:42.000

So, so we started dating in like July and then we moving together in September and then end of October are we were told the office is shutting down.

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:48.000

You need to decide the office is shutting down. Then you need to be there by the first. Of the year.

00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.000

So it

00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000

Yeah.

00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:05.000

Oh, that was so fast. That was so fast. Oh my gosh. And Okay, I tell you my heart just broke for you because You were talking about how Jason was just 100% Vegas.

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.000

Yeah.

00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:14.000

Didn't want to listen to anything you had to say and here you are trying to apply for jobs in Seattle doing your darkness in 2,009.

00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:15.000

Yeah.

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:18.000

Meanwhile, Jason is just playing video games, right?

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.000

Yeah, yeah, he was just like, oh, I'm gonna get the job in Vegas.

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000

So I'll just. I'm just gonna do that. I'm not gonna try others.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:43.000

Yeah. And here you are trying so hard to stay in Seattle. And you finally It can you tell how you came about that compromise because see you know being in Seattle you love the Northwest the greenery your family and then going to Vegas.

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:47.000

I know you don't like the desert. So how, what made you kind of leave you side to say, well, that's it.

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.000

I guess I'm going to Vegas.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:00.000

Well, I've hide for a lot of jobs and I was not hearing back from any and so that was I mean, yeah, I was in the 2,009.

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:17.000

That was what was happening. But I have wonderful family members here and friends and like That I needed to stay with someone until I could find a different job and just stay in Seattle.

00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:18.000

Yeah.

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:28.000

That could have been an option for me. But I was so. Determine to stay in this relationship. I had found someone I was like, okay, this is the relationship I want to be with.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:40.000

I am going to get married and buy a house and have kids and This is how I do that and.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:41.000

Yeah.

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:43.000

I think I had just turned 26 when I met him. So I was just like, this is This is what's important to me.

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:59.000

How do I be a 26 year old? I gotta. Check all these little boxes and yeah, I guess I finally said something like, well, you know, if I can get a promotion, then I'll go.

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.000

Yeah.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:09.000

I don't go for that same job that I had before and I got a promotion and he was like Great, we're going then.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:13.000

And I was like, oh. I don't know. Okay.

00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:22.000

Yeah, and you still wait. You waited that full week before you got back. To them with your with you accepting the job, that promotion.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:28.000

Yeah, I wanted to see if I had heard back from any of the like probably a hundred jobs I'd apply for.

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.000

Oh, whoa.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.000

Yeah.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:46.000

But I think what touch I think an important thing is that you were determined to make the relationship work. Which isn't necessarily a But I think it just it goes I mean Again, just not knowing that maybe this was not the right person to be determined to make this relationship work with.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:55.000

But when you're so young.

00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:03.000

Right. And then also. I mean, I wanna say back then like it was not that long ago, but we were not talking about domestic violence as much as we have now.

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:13.000

Yeah. No.

00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:14.000

I love.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000

Right. So it's like partly that I'm young. I'm just Gun whole about life and And love, yeah.

00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:35.000

And, and just pushing forward, but also that I just did not. Know what these warning signs are and that's why it's so important for me to like explain this and get this message out and do this through this book because In the book you can read.

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:40.000

Here's what happened and it can totally fine on the surface and then, here's how it was not.

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:46.000

Right. And a lot of it too is just in terms like, so I was in college in the nineties.

00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.000

Hmm.

00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:54.000

And you know, back then I felt like there's a lot of stigma with domestic violence. And.

00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:58.000

You know, in the twenties and so in my twenties, I, I, you know, I was, I was skinny.

00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:03.000

I was your skinny. And mind user would constantly tell me that I was fat. And that's probably like a hundred 15 pounds.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.000

Hmm.

00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:11.000

I'm about 5 5 615 pounds 5 6 and he would tell me that it was fat.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000

Oh.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:17.000

And I would believe it. I would so, so in a way was just this way of.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:37.000

Feeling so low about yourself and you know just constantly rolling at your self confidence and esteem and what kind of finally took me to leaving him was that I had a really good male friend who would lift me up and would just tell me, you know, why are you with that guy?

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:48.000

He's such a loser because you know, he didn't really have, he didn't really work, kind of moved off of me and my friend just kept on building me up, building me up and you know it's getting more and more distance from him and that's how I was finally be able to leave because I

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:56.000

had someone that was making me feel good about myself, but it took it took a really long time. So 7 years off and on.

00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:09.000

Yeah, and that's fantastic. You had that person, another of the things that abusers do is isolation.

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:23.000

They try and take relationships with my family members. But there is this. Emotional isolation that was also taking place to where I was not telling them about all the things that was happening.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:24.000

Oh yeah.

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:30.000

Mostly because I think I would have been scared of the results if I had like gone back to him.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:31.000

Yeah.

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:37.000

Also I was just so confused about. What really was happening could really never quite make sense of it at the top.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:44.000

Yes. Yes. So we're gonna, so, and I think what's interesting, another sign of the selfishness.

00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:53.000

Which, you had mentioned when you folks moved to Vegas, you basically packed up your whole entire apartment.

00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:57.000

Yes.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.000

Yeah.

00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.000

I think you packed one box. I think you put 2 items inside, you said. And he kept on, you know, he was manipulating you.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:05.000

Because you would say, we gotta get, let's go, let's go and he'd be like, no, let's relax.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:17.000

You know, let's cuddle. And so. What resulted was, you know, he's so in a way it's hard because We know this needs to be done.

00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:22.000

But then yet here's someone we love saying, let's relax. Let's cuddle, you know, come hold me.

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:29.000

Let's watch maybe spend time together. So then you say okay, but then meanwhile the packing is not getting done.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:39.000

And so it's a subtle form of manipulation where then that's why you ended up doing yourself.

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Yeah.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:43.000

Yeah, definitely the form of manipulation of. I'm showing you I want to be there with you.

00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:50.000

I want to spend time with you. I care about you on one hand, right? But then it's like the fact that you can't do anything to help.

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:02.000

We have a clear deadline of like this is when we have to be there. This is we have the moving checks how long it's gonna take to drive there like this is when we have to be out of our apartment.

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.000

That is ignored.

00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:14.000

Yeah. Yeah, if, if you care about me and care about us. Then let's pack.

00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.000

Yeah.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:20.000

That's what tearing is. Partners help each other. Because you after all too he's the one that wanted to move to Vegas so he should have been wanted the majority of the packing.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.000

Right. Right.

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:30.000

Yeah, and then you guys get to Vegas and you have to do only unpacking, but you also mentioned too about his manipulation.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000

Hmm.

00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:36.000

Of his best friend. Clint who drove you to Vegas and Jason and Clint were supposed to take turns.

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.000

And when it was, no, maybe it wasn't client, maybe to somebody else. But somebody else, okay.

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.000

Mammy.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:55.000

Okay, and when it was Jason's turn, he told, he said something, along manage the line, he's like, well, Manny, you're such a good driver and You know, you're doing such a fantastic job and.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:06.000

So basically lifting it was a form of manipulating Manny to boost Manny up. And even marked in your book like how many chess kind of puffed up and he kind of beamed.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:15.000

And so instead of Jason driving, Manny drove you guys 24 h to Vegas. Which is crazy!

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.000

I feel so bad.

00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:22.000

Yes! Crazy, yeah! Yeah, Jason's manipulation made it feel like this is a sense of pride if you can do this.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:33.000

Yeah. And I thought it was so sweet that you even offered. Like you're like, hey manny, and then Jason kind of shut you down a basic because there's no man, he's got this.

00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.000

Yeah.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:41.000

Yeah, I was like, but again, it's just, it's not one thing that it's all these little things that add up.

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:44.000

And then you get we're gonna get to your wedding and again with your wedding to like I've read to that you basically kind of just did everything and I think he was complete.

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.000

Like I've read to that you basically kinda just did everything and I think he was complete. He complained like this is what it is.

00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:55.000

And I think he was complete. He complained like this is what it is. You, Hey, babe, you do everything, right?

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.000

And then when you pick something out, this is what it is. You, hey, babe, you do everything, right?

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:01.000

And then when you pick something out, like How are you?

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:17.000

Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. It was just like this is You know, you kind of framed it in a way like, oh, this is your special day.

00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.000

It's the bride special day. You know, you get to choose how you want it to be.

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:25.000

And I'm like, great, but it's for us. It's our day. So like I need your help on it.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:26.000

Yeah.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:33.000

But yeah, oh, let's relax. Oh, not right now. Like, okay, well, we chose a venue.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:44.000

We have a date. Again, we have deadlines. We have we have to do things.

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000

Hmm.

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:50.000

Yeah, and not only that to Kate, it's just, I mean, what we're missing over is that you also did like even even moving, you did all the research, you know, the apartments, line everything up, you even compromise where you wanted to live.

00:41:50.000 --> 00:42:00.000

In what neighborhood you wanted to live. And like, and that's, you know, you're doing all the searching and you're doing all the leg working or the footwork and yet you have to compromise to where he wants to be.

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:15.000

And with the wedding too, you're just, and so you're working, you talk about how you're working and you're doing all this winning planning at night and it takes so much time and effort and energy and meanwhile he's just playing his violent video games.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:18.000

Yeah, then that's why you're such a go getter.

00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:30.000

Yeah. Yeah, I am. I get that on something I want and then I just Go.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:39.000

But I mean now a little later in life I do take time to stop and reflect along the way about how things are going instead of.

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:44.000

Blindly pushing through. Checking in with my feelings. I think that's so important.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:52.000

To do to realize. How did I stop and check? And I'm not blaming myself here, right?

00:42:52.000 --> 00:43:00.000

But like how did I stop to check in with my feelings along the way? I would have had more indication about.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.000

What was going on perhaps?

00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:13.000

It's and again it's hard because when you're young and you're in love and you're determined and you have a You just look over it, cause you work out.

00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:23.000

Okay, cause again, and that's why it's tough because and you mentioned too that you're your empath and a very empathetic person.

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:40.000

So it's hard when and it's always. The impacts that. That tend to be with these types of like emotional vampires of users because they just kinda suck everything from us and we're like, you know, very positive and make it work and always looking for the best.

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:48.000

Always hoping for the best. But we I'm gonna talk about how on your wedding on your wedding day itself before the.

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:49.000

Yeah.

00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:54.000

You said you felt they were. You felt there's some signs. You're inside of you.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.000

There's something.

00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:06.000

Yeah, I felt super super anxious like Not quite a panic attack, but like on the verge of like, I just felt like a huge search of anxiety.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:07.000

Yeah.

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:19.000

Right before I'm supposed to get married and I don't know, like when you watch movies about people getting married and you see other people get married, you see that so much.

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:20.000

Oh.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.000

So I thought like, oh, maybe it's common. Maybe it's normal to be anxious right before.

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:31.000

And so again, I was a feeling that I dismissed.

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000

Yes.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.000

So again, but there's a difference between like an excited anxious mess. Nervous anxiousness.

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.000

Or was this like a like a dread type of anxiety?

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:41.000

Yeah, no, such a good point to bring out because the The physiological feelings we can feel in our bodies between anxiety and excitement are basically the same.

00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:57.000

It's elevated heart rate. It's our blood is coming faster. But it's like what emotion comes with it.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000

Yeah.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:02.000

Fear or joy and Yeah, I think I was definitely sliding more toward fear.

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.000

You are not towards joy. That was for sure.

00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:07.000

No, yeah, yeah.

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:13.000

You mentioned too that you couldn't, so when you had come down, I guess the stairs and.

00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:18.000

You couldn't, you couldn't see Jason's face in the crowd.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.000

Which was interesting.

00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:27.000

Yeah. Yeah, because Most of the time you can Pick out your loved one from the crowd. Quite immediately.

00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.000

Right. Yeah.

00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:41.000

But it was just like this whole big blur was kind of happening and and he was just in the sea of everybody and I thought a lot weird that I didn't like someone had to point him out to me.

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:46.000

Oh, he's over here. I was like, oh.

00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:00.000

Yeah, and by then it's just, it's too late. You're there, you go through with it, you just push The wedding night happens and that was the first incident of a physical abuse, right?

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.000

Yeah.

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:03.000

Yeah, what happened?

00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.000

He was like, it's our wedding night. We have to have sex and I was exhausted.

00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:12.000

We've been drinking too.

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:14.000

Of course you're exhausted because you're doing everything.

00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:26.000

I'm so tired and I'm like. Just barely able to like get this stress off and I'm like I can't I have no energy I don't have the energy to have sex.

00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:32.000

And he's like, you're my wife now. You have to do what I say. And I'm like.

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:33.000

Yeah.

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:39.000

What? Like. My initial thought was, are you, is this like your, teasing? Like you're not serious?

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:43.000

Like, And then that's when he slapped me.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:49.000

Yeah, and it, it was, interesting is that he's like, we have to consummate.

00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:55.000

And it's so old school, like, you know, back in the days where you had to consummate the marriage on the wedding day.

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.000

And that's what he was insisting you 2 do.

00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:59.000

Yeah.

00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:05.000

And then the whole pack, the fact that you're my wife, you have to do what I say.

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:06.000

Okay.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:14.000

I'm like, are we in the 1,500? I don't know. Good I step back in a time capsule because that's not how it happens but there was again it was at That no respect or consideration for your feelings.

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:27.000

It's all about him and his needs. Must satisfy my needs. And I think especially too when it comes to women and that whole power dynamic over sex.

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:34.000

With, you know, with abusers. It's You got to satisfy my physical needs.

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:38.000

Yeah.

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.000

Okay.

00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:45.000

And, and then to slap you. On your wedding night because you're too tired. Yeah, that was a clear sign.

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000

Go ahead.

00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:54.000

Right. But the Anything about that was that. I did not remember it happen until years later.

00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:00.000

Yeah! Can you, Can you go into that? Or is it because you're drunk? Is it?

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:07.000

I mean, sure, yeah, I was a little drunk, but no, I wouldn't say that's why.

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:08.000

Yeah.

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:12.000

Because now I can remember it, you know, very clear.

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:20.000

It, it was such a shock. System after we get married since we are a happiest day of our lives together.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:21.000

Yeah.

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000

I, I was just so shocked and then I was like. I just, I'm so tired I need to go to bed.

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:31.000

I can't do anything. I can't think. I don't know. What do I say and do?

00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:45.000

I'm just gonna. Fall right asleep and and then the next day it was kind of Like there's an apology and we're supposed to get on the plane to go to our honeymoon.

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:53.000

And so I was just like. Let it be as like we'll figure it out later. And I just push it to the back of my mind and

00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:06.000

Part of that is the way our brains protect ourselves. Self-protection to. Okay, if we don't remember something big and scary, then we can move on with our lives.

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.000

Yeah.

00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:15.000

But at any point I could have stopped everything, right? I was in Seattle for the wedding. I could have.

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:23.000

I'm gonna stay here, right? I could have changed my mind at any point, but when you get so wrapped into things.

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:24.000

You can.

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:32.000

And, into like this person and also just. I was just so confused. Like how could he have done this?

00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.000

Doesn't seem like him. It'll probably never happen again.

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:45.000

Again, it was on one type of thing. He was probably just tired, stressed. I should have even said 2.

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:53.000

I should have just given in.

00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:54.000

Like.

00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:58.000

I mean, at that moment. Sure, you know, why don't you think of all the options that would have made you stay safer?

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:05.000

Yeah, I mean, cause you kinda think it was my fault. A little bit, but I know I totally hear what you're saying in terms of.

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:13.000

You're just in such such a shock and then again to protect yourself your brain has to disassociate.

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:20.000

And then again, to protect yourself, your brain has to disassociate from the event. Because it's just too traumatic and hurtful.

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:32.000

And painful. I remember, oh gosh. Oh I remember there's this one time where my boyfriend at the time, we were driving.

00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:38.000

I was driving, we're driving on the freeway, we're in an argument. And he punched me.

00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:49.000

If you punch me like right in my face in my eye. And I had a black eye. And from one thing, just being shock like, oh my gosh, I'm driving on the freeway.

00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:56.000

And then to get punch like a lot you know a lot of times the relationship was you know it's very verbally abusive.

00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:08.000

I wouldn't say it was physical abuse, but it probably was a lot just kind of like holding me down, grabbing my arms, lot of pushing, using physical force on me.

00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:18.000

And but to actually get hit and punch. And. In fact, there's a pardon me right now that's still kind of disassociates myself from that.

00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:23.000

And I can't believe that it happened. And I can't believe I stayed with him after that.

00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:25.000

And you just like That was a mistake. That's not gonna happen again. That was just some one time type of thing.

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:35.000

I and I think I just felt so much shame too about. Letting that happen.

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:36.000

Yeah.

00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:42.000

Just even, yeah, it's tough. Like I said, even it's, so tough right now to even.

00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:45.000

Think about it because I don't want to. Hello.

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:56.000

Yeah, I mean, I think I felt just a tiny bit of dissociation even just now like going over that night because I'm putting myself and doing so.

00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:03.000

The shame is a really important aspect too, right? Like I had brought all my friends and family to.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:07.000

To the wedding, right? Like everybody was there had I. Made the decision to change my mind at any point, they would have supported me.

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:18.000

They're my friends and family, but. You know, when you look at collectively all these people that have made this.

00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:33.000

Sacrifice to be there. It would have been a whole bunch of shame and guilt. And even after I left him and like thought about like, oh my gosh, everybody came to be to this to this wedding to celebrate love.

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:42.000

And I guess it wasn't love. I still like had some initial thoughts of like, oh, I feel bad about that.

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:53.000

Hmm. But that's why I think it's these books are so important because it's just We have to normalize.

00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:54.000

Yeah.

00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:57.000

This experience and what we've gone through. To erase that Cause it's such a heavy burden for the survivors to carry.

00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:15.000

And that's why it's just in just to me for even you to write these books take so much strength because you know, for me, there's just so much disassociation and for you to kind of go back there and relive it and be in those moments.

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:24.000

It's so powerful. And you know, thank you for doing that. Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention and trying to engage in this conversation.

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:27.000

So.

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:32.000

So people who are going to see situation. Can see. Oh my gosh, that's me. That's me.

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:44.000

And it's okay. It's okay for me. To say to kind of just say like to send it for myself and be like, hey.

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:50.000

What I'm feeling inside is right, this isn't right how you're treating me.

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:58.000

So moving forward and I get it, right? So it's you're gonna go on your honeymoon, you guys are gonna go to, you guys went to the, Or something.

00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:07.000

Yeah. Yeah, same more and yeah, it was beautiful. I mean, so then we just had a great time on our hot even for the most part.

00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:09.000

Like. That's wonderful.

00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:20.000

Yeah, you folks have a wonderful honeymoon, lots of great memories. You go to Vegas, you folks start off on this new life together and everything is going good.

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:26.000

And what I want to jump to and I think this is another telling sign of selfishness and the compromises that you folks have to make.

00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:33.000

I think it was your, were your first, was it your first wedding anniversary? Where you wanted to go on a trip to celebrate.

00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.000

Hmm.

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:53.000

And so you. Oh my gosh, report it's just that I I can see it because I'm like yep that's What we do, we always compromise where you had wanted to go on a trip, I believe, to the East Coast, but it was too expensive.

00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:54.000

No, it wasn't that.

00:54:54.000 --> 00:55:05.000

Yeah, and I don't know that time I've already talked about the anniversary or not but I just wanted to go yeah I just wanted to like go on a trip together like when we were on our honeymoon everything was great and so let's go have that experience again but also it's I was just

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:08.000

like, okay, like I'm working, I'm in a marriage, like I'm bored.

00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:12.000

Like I need some adventure. And so I'm like, let's plan this trip.

00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:14.000

Right.

00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:20.000

Let's maybe we can go here. Let's look at different cities. That we could fly to to just go.

00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:25.000

They are to drive to and eventually it's like, oh, we're just gonna walk along the Las Vegas trip.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:27.000

Okay, great.

00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:36.000

Yeah, but that was. But that was but the thing is that you You constantly, you're constantly compromising.

00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:43.000

Like, you know, the first thing was let's fly somewhere. And then it was expensive. So you said, okay, so then you looked into states where you folks could drive.

00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:46.000

I believe in Arizona. I, you said Utah and then.

00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:50.000

Oh yeah, New Mexico is all right there from Vegas. Yeah.

00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:55.000

And he didn't want to go to Arizona because you had family there.

00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:56.000

Yeah.

00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:59.000

So, and he didn't want to see them or something.

00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:05.000

Just like, I don't know, sounds boring. We haven't. Like, I was just dismissive.

00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:11.000

Yeah, a family, California as well. He's just like, no, I don't know, we've done that boring, like.

00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:12.000

I don't know. They take isolation, I guess.

00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:18.000

And then. Yeah, isolation. My Arizona has a grand canyons. Like how's that boring?

00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000

We did eventually get to the Grand Canyon, but.

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:30.000

But here you are, you just learn ideas after ideas and then you just. Just end up going to the shrimp.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.000

And checking out the casinos. Different casinos and it's like

00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:40.000

Yeah, which we had already invented so many times.

00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:41.000

Yeah.

00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:53.000

And it's but that was Jason's thing. That was what Jason wanted to do. And you mentioned to like in a way Jason was happy doing the same thing, same thing, going to dive bars, going to casinos, hanging out the same duper fence.

00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:00.000

And that wasn't your thing, but you compromised because it was Jason's.

00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:01.000

And in the strip.

00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:13.000

Yeah. Happy then the happier that he would be or happier than the happier that I would be because there wouldn't be as much emotional abuse if he was feeling happier, right?

00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000

Also a self protective.

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.000

Right. Right. And you mentioned this. You mentioned this term called, You go into that.

00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:29.000

Hmm, yes. Yeah, so a lot of people have heard of free. Freeze or flight or flight or freeze, which are our bodies natural reactions.

00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:47.000

We get, A flood of cortisol, something is telling us we're in danger for whatever reason and we're either going to stop and not know how to react or like going to like a bear in the woods like you play dead like freeze.

00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:56.000

Or you. Like it's Friday, or you run away. Or you fight the bear.

00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:07.000

Or an emotional views we add. Good morning. Which is a way of like, I'm gonna give you compliments and I'm gonna Say nice things to you.

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:15.000

I'm gonna compromise and do whatever you wanna do. And that is my way of. Fighting but not running away.

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:20.000

It's that other response to it's the people pleasing.

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:31.000

People pleasing. Okay. Which is what survivors do in an abusive relationship, but it's like we have to do it to protect ourselves and keep ourselves safe.

00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:32.000

Exactly. Yeah.

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.000

Yeah, but we don't even realize it.

00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:43.000

No, right. It just becomes so. Part of like, oh, like you will be happier if I do what you want to do. Okay.

00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:46.000

And then it's just so ingrained. It's just part of daily life.

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:51.000

Yeah, and that's that's what it is. So, and you also talk to about gas lighting.

00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:52.000

Yeah.

00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:58.000

Can you can you define what that is and then are you able to give an example? In your relationship with Jason.

00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:13.000

Yeah, so in gas lighting there's It's basically the survivor says. X happened and the abuser says, no it didn't.

00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:22.000

And this survivors like, look, like I saw the sunrise today, the sun rose, the sun is in the sky and the gas lighters like.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:23.000

Hmm.

00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:26.000

No, no, there's no sun. No, never will be assigned. I only see a moon.

00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:28.000

Yeah.

00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:39.000

And they just continue the pattern, the cycle of that conversation to the point where it's like. Okay, fine, I guess, you know, if you keep talking about it all day, I don't see us done anymore either.

00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:53.000

Yeah. And it's a way to not only Well, it's a way to dismiss. Your feelings, your belief, and basically control the narrative.

00:59:53.000 --> 01:00:03.000

Yeah, control the narrative and. To like, it's another form of manipulation and emotional abuse to say.

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:11.000

What I believe happened happened and what you believe happened did not happen and it's most often. Used in response.

01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:17.000

I think it's used a lot throughout, but it's just like not. I don't know, I didn't notice it, right?

01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:20.000

But,

01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:25.000

But it's used to say, no, I didn't hurt you. No, I did not.

01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:33.000

Let's do this and so there is a time and that you said you're like at the halfway in the third book.

01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:41.000

So, there's an incident that's, you're about to read about in the third book.

01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:42.000

Oh, okay.

01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:46.000

Where he pushes me downstairs. And. He denies it happens. Yeah.

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:50.000

Wow. You just completely denies it.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:01.000

Yeah, it happens overnight. And then the next morning in multiple. Conversations. Hey, just the 9, happen at all.

01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:06.000

Oh yeah, that's a good example of gas lighting. And then let's get into trauma bonding.

01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:13.000

You mentioned this. Oh gosh, I think it was it's in the second book and I don't remember if this is the time.

01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:23.000

Where maybe this was the time that you guys I think you guys were talking about politics or the healthcare Jason and his dad cornered you and you were trying to leave.

01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:31.000

And then Jason took Jason with, oh gosh, she took your phone. You took your car keys. You were in the bathroom.

01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:38.000

You try to run out, he was telling you don't leave, he was running after you.

01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:42.000

And did he slap you again? He slapped you at that time.

01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000

So there were. There's the time that we had the conversation, the arguments about healthcare and I felt corner and I ran out and then there was another.

01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000

So then at the other time. He I've resume was feeling a masculated.

01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000

Yes.

01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:08.000

The shirt incident. It was after the Seahawks game. He had been drinking with his dad.

01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:16.000

You had made plans to see that. You had bought him a nice shirt. Which I thought was very thoughtful, very sweet of you.

01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:28.000

You brought and you guys were meeting, you brought in the shirt. And he felt emasculated by the fact you bottom a shirt.

01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:32.000

Right, which still, yeah. Makes no sense.

01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:40.000

Makes no sense. That was a very thoughtful thing for you to do and only that you had you had bought this you had bought like his original shirt.

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:47.000

And then you had gone out and do something very nice and at this time too you had gotten promoted again.

01:02:47.000 --> 01:03:00.000

You're making more money than Jason. So, so Jason, by the fact that you got promoted, you're making more money and then you bottom the shirt.

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:07.000

And. So can can you talk to you about what happened and what eventually led to that?

01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:09.000

Second act of physical violence.

01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:21.000

Yeah, so. We, yeah, he like is very upset about this shirt and he, I think eventually puts it on or doesn't put it on, I actually don't remember.

01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:22.000

On the

01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:29.000

Whatever I wrote in the book is what happened. Oh, good. And then we go to the show and he just like.

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:38.000

I don't know, still as angry with me, like there's just nothing's making any sense about why he's angry with me.

01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:39.000

Nothing he is I say can like elicit a good reaction even though we're at this like really amazing.

01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:54.000

Incredible show. And then. Like driving home, I just felt very like. Silence.

01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:05.000

And, and then we get home and. Actually, don't remember the exact like, I mean, yeah, I guess there is a part of dissociating even in like writing the book, right?

01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:18.000

And I'm like, exactly what happened? I'm not sure. But yeah, he swears the man calls me names and he slaps me and Yeah. In front of the dad.

01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:22.000

In front of the cat.

01:04:22.000 --> 01:04:23.000

. Yeah

01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:28.000

Yeah. Who does nothing? And at this point, I'm like. Okay, what like I don't wanna be here.

01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:35.000

I don't feel safe being here. And so I try and grab like some things to go.

01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:52.000

Phones like contact. Solution toothbrush, like just some things I need. And my laptop, because I felt like, oh, if you're in danger and all your you know, what are you gonna save in a time of danger?

01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:59.000

And I was like, I had so many pictures. On there and so I wanted to save my laptop and.

01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:16.000

So I'm packing this bag and he is trying to. Stop me from leaving. I want to pause and say, to anybody that's ever in a a relationship or just in general I think it's helpful to have but if you're in a relationship that you think Something could happen.

01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:27.000

Have a go back ready, but also like an earthquake could happen at any time, right? So like just have a go peg ready, of like just the basic things that you would need to.

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:41.000

To like go on a trip or go somewhere for a couple of days. Having copies of your IDs passports any like medical prescriptions, copies of keys that are hidden.

01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:47.000

Wow.

01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.000

Yeah.

01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:52.000

I think that's a really important thing to have ready to go. But yeah, so he tried to take my keys for me and my phone for me.

01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:59.000

And he was holding your phone and he's much taller than you. You're trying to jump and get at it and he couldn't.

01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:00.000

Yeah.

01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:03.000

You also threatened to stomp on your laptop, right?

01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:10.000

Yes, yeah, he was literally doing anything he could to prevent me from leaving. And it was terrifying.

01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:16.000

And so I like end up taking my nails into him to let him to get him to let go of me.

01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:17.000

And I run out the door into a neighbor's house and I don't have my phone or my keys.

01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:27.000

They can't go anywhere. But go to the neighbor's house and I ask them if I could use their computer and I got on Facebook.

01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:38.000

Messenger. And I message my neighbors or my friends. Who lived not that far away and they even met me and I stayed with them.

01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:40.000

Nice neighbors.

01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:42.000

Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:50.000

And I, I think it was hard to is that these friends or mutual friends of yours. And when you told them what happened.

01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:56.000

The woman basically said, Well, you masculated him.

01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:57.000

Yeah.

01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:09.000

So. And that's the hard part is that you don't have in a way you have a sounding board that's basically saying, well, it's your fault.

01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:10.000

Yeah.

01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:16.000

Right. I felt like If I was gonna talk to anyone, I was going to talk to somebody who is in our mutual friend group.

01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:24.000

Who knew him? I wouldn't know both sides. I felt like if I talk to, I think that's another thing.

01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:30.000

If I talked to my family about it, I knew that the second I talked to my family about it.

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:38.000

I would be pulled to leave. But I was ready for that. So I just talked to people that knew him just so like.

01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:44.000

Yeah, soundboard off of them and only to be met with like, oh, stay. You need to be there for him through these tough times.

01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:54.000

That he's dealing with his anger.

01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:55.000

Yeah.

01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:58.000

Yeah, and that's a tough part right there. You need to stay with him and support him.

01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:08.000

Yeah, and I think and the aspect of that is that many of my friends in Las Vegas were Latina and there's that cultural aspect of This is how it is.

01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:09.000

Yeah.

01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:14.000

It is in our family and this is how it's been for us. And so this is what you should do.

01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:15.000

No.

01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:21.000

I don't know. Like that's all people or anything, right? But there's just cultural aspects to be aware of.

01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:27.000

Yeah, and it makes, so when you're talking about how you don't want to tell your family, it, so.

01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:34.000

With my with my first boyfriend. My mom, my mom hated him so much. The, well, she disproved of him.

01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:49.000

So she said, you can't you can't bring them around our family events. So in a way that was kind of isolating because you know, it was just me hanging out with him in his family.

01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000

Hmm.

01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:54.000

And I couldn't talk to my mom about it because my mom was tired of hearing it. I was really trapped because there wasn't anyone I could talk to about it.

01:08:54.000 --> 01:09:11.000

And talk about how is feeling except for you know, maybe friends and and friends will tell me to leave but it's different when it's your peers and you know at the time too I still stubborn that even if my mom my mom had told me to leave I wouldn't because she was telling me, but in a way it was it

01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:16.000

was hard because I was I was so isolated and

01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:24.000

I don't have my own sounding board to. To basically tell me this is not okay. And then I was too ashamed to talk to my family.

01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:32.000

About it. I think the only person that really knew how bad it was maybe even she didn't know it was my sister where you are and half apart.

01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:41.000

But like everybody couldn't stand him because everybody knew. How he treated me. And so in a way that becomes isolating in itself too.

01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:47.000

Where I think you I think you talk about this too when you're saying you know the friends and the family members.

01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:57.000

It really takes this. Oh, I mean, it's really takes this understanding. To not be judgmental and to just be there.

01:09:57.000 --> 01:09:58.000

And just provide support.

01:09:58.000 --> 01:10:11.000

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And And it's actually not that uncommon for friends and family members to say, no, I'm tired of hearing about this person leave or stop talking.

01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:17.000

And I think that they're trying to be helpful, but I think they're also annoyed because hearing about it is hurting them.

01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:18.000

Right.

01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:23.000

But if we can get that message out to like. Be supportive, listen, be not judgmental.

01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:33.000

Understand it takes time to leave. I understand it takes time to untangle the trauma bonds and the code dependency.

01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:34.000

Yeah.

01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:43.000

To entangle the lies of the gas lighting. To, and when you, when things have been so tangled and there's so much dissociation, there's even greater separation between your mind and your body.

01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:44.000

Yeah.

01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:51.000

So it's like you have to do all this untangling and then. Put yourself back together.

01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:55.000

And then you might start understanding what's happening.

01:10:55.000 --> 01:10:57.000

And that doesn't happen overnight, people.

01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:15.000

No, and so our friends and family can help us by talking through this and And yeah, I just really wanna highlight like If a person, if you're telling a person like it's time to leave and they don't listen to you and.

01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:21.000

You're worried you're gonna like lose your friend over suggesting them. Like, oh, I'm not gonna have this friendship anymore.

01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:29.000

Right, but like if they stay in these relationships, they. They can literally be killed and then you don't have a friend anymore.

01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:37.000

So it's important to keep in mind you want to put The friends, the human above the friendship.

01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:51.000

Hmm. You want to put the human above the friendship? Yeah. And you, you say this in your third book.

01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:52.000

Yeah.

01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:55.000

You say be gentle with yourself and any survivors, you know. The process takes time. And it does, it does takes time and.

01:11:55.000 --> 01:12:03.000

Again, as a friend, it's just, we're just asking people that even though we know you're tired of hearing about that.

01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:11.000

It's so important for the friend to continue knowing that you're there. Support because if you shut yourself off and you say, I don't want to hear anymore.

01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:14.000

That's actually gonna isolate the survivor even more.

01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:32.000

Absolutely. And especially when I to that point too because then if you talk to a new friend who you haven't not a new friend necessarily could be a new friend, but a person you have not told any of the story to before about what's going on, it just start over.

01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:43.000

Telling them, okay, well, this is what's been happening all the way through, which is way harder to do than to continue talking with somebody that already knows what's going on at least a little bit.

01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:59.000

And so let's go into the trauma bond because When you come back after, you know, after this lap you mentioned that, you know, Jason had his arms outstretched and it was like blocking their doorway so you couldn't like he was forcing you.

01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:04.000

To have this intimate connection against.

01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:30.000

Yeah. Yeah, so there's no way for me to get in through the door without hugging him, which I certainly was not inclined to do after he had hit me.

01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:31.000

Hmm.

01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:40.000

So it's another form of manipulation and as we we bond with people we love we have that hormone of oxytocin and then it gets conflated in a trauma bond, the oxytocin of Love hormone is getting conflated with The stress hormone cortisol and then

01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:49.000

it's so and it's fine that you almost expect them to be together. Like should I have stress and love together?

01:13:49.000 --> 01:13:51.000

Just love to get.

01:13:51.000 --> 01:14:02.000

Like is that how it's supposed to be? But you're just so. I don't know, you still feel like love with this person and You're codependent, the lives are intermingled.

01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:13.000

I mean, by this point, we're married. I'm We've been in Las Vegas for a couple, oh, 3 or 4 years at this point.

01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:26.000

4 years probably. We have all the same friends. We still work at the same workplace. Like there's not much separate identity happening for myself.

01:14:26.000 --> 01:14:31.000

But you had no identity, cause you had no friends in Vegas except for your work friends.

01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:34.000

Yeah, I mean, and our mutual friends.

01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:39.000

Yeah, and you did everything that Jason wanted to do. You didn't have your own separate interest or hobbies.

01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:47.000

Yeah, I eventually do start like branching out to that in the third book a bit more. Which is helpful, right?

01:14:47.000 --> 01:14:58.000

I start. Learning how to garden and like going into these like weekly like gardening classes and

01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:02.000

Oh no, actually, the only hobby. I don't know. I think it's like it.

01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:07.000

Oh, I. I started doing yoga like I met this great yoga instructor.

01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:19.000

I was like trying to do other things like make myself feel good. Cause I could understand why I wasn't feeling good, why I was constantly feeling stressed and constantly having headaches and had gained a bunch of weight.

01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:29.000

Like I just. No, it's sense to me. So that was my branching out to my own hobby is to try and find nature in yoga, which are fantastic.

01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:30.000

Yeah.

01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:34.000

But did not explain. Good.

01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:42.000

So in terms of the trauma bond, one thing you had mentioned in the books is where it's almost as if like this, you know, your brain is releasing oxycontin or such.

01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:48.000

And then it's, you mentioned like it almost becomes like an addiction. This feeling.

01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:54.000

Yeah. So yes, I know it's funny. Is at Oxley Cotton, which is the, right?

01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:57.000

Oh. Hmm.

01:15:57.000 --> 01:16:01.000

Yeah. Great. So oxytocin.

01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:03.000

Oxytocin. Okay.

01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:21.000

And that's the same love hormone that is released. When mothers give birth and they have all these feelings of, All this love for this child and also It's soothing the pain of the childbirth.

01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:22.000

Yeah.

01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:27.000

And the oxytocin is flooded again through nursing and or even feeding without the nursing, right?

01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:38.000

There's still oxytocin and then through. Hugs and kisses and sex in a romantic partnership or even non romantic partnership.

01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:46.000

But all the ways that we show physical affection for one another is flooding our brains with oxytocin.

01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:59.000

Which is keeping us connected. Now in a healthy relationship, you will still have oxytocin and you'll have love and feel love when you're, being affectionate with your partner.

01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:10.000

But you can separate and you could have your own lives and you can know that if something happened, if for some reason something happens to my partner or to our relationship.

01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:18.000

I would still survive. But when you're a trauma bond, you have this feeling of I absolutely need them to survive.

01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:22.000

Oh yeah, yeah.

01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:28.000

And I get, gosh, it was so, Just kinda when I think back in terms of.

01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:36.000

The violent incidents that would happen between us and you know with with getting the pushing and the shoving and things like that.

01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:43.000

And then the. The makeup afterwards. You know, the I'm sorry, it's just, it's so intense.

01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:44.000

Hmm.

01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:52.000

It's just, and you just crave it. Yeah, you just, you just crave it so bad and you just in a way I'm like, I guess this is what.

01:17:52.000 --> 01:18:01.000

Love is like where you have these intense highs and lows, but it's like you said, it's love mixed with stress.

01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:05.000

And pain. And that's not what love is.

01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:18.000

I love it. Does not have a high intense highs and lows. I mean, there's gonna be some things that happen, right?

01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.000

Hey.

01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:22.000

But like. No, love does not feel like a roller coaster. But yeah, I need time that we.

01:18:22.000 --> 01:18:29.000

Have these intense lows and then we make up and we have these intense highs. That's strengthening that trauma bond.

01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:35.000

Yeah. And we get, it's like in my hands, like I get addicted to that.

01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:44.000

Like I'm, I'm because when it's when it's bad, your brain just latches onto the good times, the fun times.

01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:45.000

For safety.

01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:46.000

Yeah, but it's hard too because there is a pattern. It's just always up and down.

01:18:46.000 --> 01:18:53.000

And like you said, it's a circle. So, and so let's get into it.

01:18:53.000 --> 01:19:07.000

It happened. I still this, is another thing and it goes back into the warring signs of the parent relationship where you had mentioned that so this time the dad had moved up to Vegas too for work and one of the things that the dad had the data always.

01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:15.000

The wife back here in Seattle to, you know, can I get getting the wife's permission to go out and do something.

01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:20.000

And when Jason asked you for your permission, you're like, just go, you don't need my permission.

01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:28.000

But it was interesting because you mentioned that was a kind of a sign of code dependency where he kind of had to ask his wife every time to go out.

01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:34.000

But then it kind of goes into. So it goes into when his father witnessed a slap.

01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:40.000

And then later on you asked to talk to him about it. But then he said, That's between you and him.

01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:42.000

I'm not gonna get involved.

01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:45.000

Yeah.

01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:53.000

And it was shocking because part of you, you like, and I was, you know, you're, and I was hoping too that the dad would say, Hey Jason, you can't do that.

01:19:53.000 --> 01:20:02.000

You can't do that to your wife. And so it's so hard you have these friends, these mutual friends basically saying you masculated him.

01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:15.000

You gotta support him. And then you've got a dad basically condoning the behavior as well. So even more so I can see how that just Like, how are you supposed to get out?

01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:16.000

Alright, I must tell me everything's. Oh, this is. This is kind of okay, right?

01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:19.000

Cause it's just getting reinforced. That

01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:31.000

You are normalizing this. Behavior, whereas If I called my family and told them about this, it would absolutely not be normalized.

01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:39.000

Yeah. Yeah. And but part of you don't want it again. So the reason why you don't want to tell your family is shame.

01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:40.000

Yeah.

01:20:40.000 --> 01:20:48.000

You'll embarrassment and also you're not ready. You don't want to hear your family tell them to leave because you're not strong enough to leave.

01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:49.000

You just came in.

01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:57.000

Yes, yeah, his emotional abuse had definitely taken quite the toll on my self confidence, which I was a pretty confident person before and I am now.

01:20:57.000 --> 01:21:11.000

But you know, with, the emotional abuse, like the self-confidence. Withers down so much, but then there's Oh, so yeah, so there's lack of self esteem and filling like inner strength to be able to make these decisions.

01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:12.000

Yeah.

01:21:12.000 --> 01:21:16.000

Damon Guilt around like, oh, I guess I was wrong. I made the wrong decision about this person.

01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:28.000

Like. With or the way that he is making it feel in my head too is shaming guilt about not being strong enough to stay and make it work.

01:21:28.000 --> 01:21:29.000

Oh.

01:21:29.000 --> 01:21:32.000

You've promised to stay married. You should stay with me.

01:21:32.000 --> 01:21:33.000

Yeah. And.

01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:43.000

What is the sanctity of marriage, which I don't know why I felt like so, but I mean, his emotional views, his ways of manipulating me.

01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:54.000

I felt like, okay, we preserved the sanctity of marriage. Even though my parents are divorced and remarried and so happy and they're new, 20 plus years each.

01:21:54.000 --> 01:22:04.000

Marriages. So. I knew that divorce was an option. But I was just so in his.

01:22:04.000 --> 01:22:06.000

Manipulation.

01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:14.000

Yeah, and we wanted to women out there, I mean screw the sanctity of marriage. If you're an abusive relationship, get the hell out.

01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:15.000

Yeah, yes.

01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:21.000

Don't worry about this. And what side you would think of you? No.

01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:22.000

Yeah.

01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:29.000

No, worry about you and your own emotional mental health. And physical health and safety.

01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:35.000

Or so much more important than what then. Than a failed marriage and don't think about it as a failed marriage at all.

01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:39.000

Right.

01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:40.000

Yeah.

01:22:40.000 --> 01:22:43.000

And, and this goes for men to our abusive relationships. All we can do is just learn and grow.

01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:48.000

But, yeah, I get that too. The sanctity of marriage, the societal pressure.

01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:49.000

Hmm.

01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:53.000

Hmm. Right.

01:22:53.000 --> 01:22:58.000

So we're gonna we're gonna jump into Oh gosh, due to time constraints, we got, we got a jump.

01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:05.000

There's a really bad incident. That happened at, I believe it was after the Seahawks play off game.

01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:06.000

For the 49 years game, right?

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:14.000

Yeah, yeah, classic historical game kind of.

01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:15.000

Yeah, yeah.

01:23:15.000 --> 01:23:23.000

That awesome game was that back in 2014 2015 the oh. And it was like such a good game and such a wonderful night and yet this horrible, terrible thing happened.

01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:37.000

We're Jason and it wasn't against you. It was it was against you. You had gone to bed and Jason and a woman one of your friends was downstairs talking and you got Wolken up with your friends screaming Kate, help me, help me.

01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:46.000

And then you go down and you see Jason, she's on the stairs. And Jason is just tiring over her just punching her in the face repeatedly.

01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:56.000

And so you call the police. You guys leave, you get to safety and I'm gonna fast forward a little bit, but.

01:23:56.000 --> 01:24:08.000

A conversation happens with Jason. Where you said you had Okay, first of all, Jason was mad because you called the police and you're, he's like, you're my wife.

01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:14.000

How could you call the police? Well, I didn't. You were punching her repeatedly 13 times, she said.

01:24:14.000 --> 01:24:27.000

13 times. I don't even know how this. Oh, this poor woman. And Jason gets pressed with charges and then you mentioned how he had some, scratches on his hands and first he didn't remember at all races.

01:24:27.000 --> 01:24:42.000

I don't remember. Then he saw the scarf and cuts on his hands and he goes, oh, now I remember, she, she hit me with a beer bottle, see you with self-defense, and you had mentioned to Jason, well, weren't you holding her phone or the garbage And he said, yeah, but

01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:48.000

it was self-defense. And you, and you, and so you guys were having having this argument where you're like.

01:24:48.000 --> 01:25:06.000

That doesn't warrant you punching her in the face 13 times. And as just so interesting because, and again, this is how the, like, it's just, and you, talk about he had no remorse, no empathy whatsoever, and he just kind of persisted in this narrative.

01:25:06.000 --> 01:25:10.000

Well, I was justified in with self-defense.

01:25:10.000 --> 01:25:30.000

And, you know, that's, that, that was horrible. You know, it's a heavy moment and it's just there's no human being deserves getting punched in the face 13 times unless someone has your children and you've got to intervene because imminent harm is going to come to a child

01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:35.000

or a family member, but it wasn't. He was just drunk, he was just angry, he was just an asshole.

01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:43.000

Yeah, he isn't a hassle. Yeah. Yes, and I do wanna.

01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:49.000

Just clarify one part because it's important for safety. I got my friend out of the situation and then I called the police.

01:25:49.000 --> 01:25:52.000

Yeah. Oh yeah.

01:25:52.000 --> 01:26:06.000

So yeah, I just wanted like putting safety out there. Get the person. Out of the situation. So we like we ran like 2 blocks down the road and then I called the place from there.

01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:07.000

No, go ahead.

01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:10.000

Yeah.

01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:20.000

Yeah, police came and made sure that like, you know, got her like the medical attention she needed, which thankfully was not serious.

01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:26.000

Like, obviously was serious, but like, She didn't have to go to the hospital that night, I guess.

01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:44.000

And they the police came and intervened. And going back to like us watching all the same TV shows like we watch Law and Order SUV like every night it was on.

01:26:44.000 --> 01:26:45.000

Use it.

01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:47.000

Just a lot of nights, I don't know, maybe it's the new ones, but anyways, and we have discussions watching that show.

01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:48.000

Well.

01:26:48.000 --> 01:26:52.000

Where he can sometimes be victim blaming and

01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:53.000

. Yeah

01:26:53.000 --> 01:27:03.000

Yeah, and he would talk about like And sometimes in those kinds of cop shows, the other shows you watch too, I had cops in it.

01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:10.000

And he would talk about like, oh, the wife has. Has like confidential production.

01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:26.000

You can just say like I'm the wife, I'm not gonna say anything. And we just had so many conversations about that regarding.

01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:27.000

Yeah.

01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:30.000

TV shows and then conversations about like not telling my family about when he had hit me. In the moment I was just like.

01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:37.000

Okay, I'm invoking husband wife privilege. I'm not saying anything. It felt like the right response.

01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:41.000

Yeah.

01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:44.000

I mean, maybe it was the response that kept me alive. I don't know that.

01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:48.000

You know, it's really interesting too, cause when you say that response, like, how does she know that?

01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:54.000

But after watching lawn order, SUV. No, I get it too. I feel like I.

01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:59.000

You had to do that. Your brain has to do that too to protect yourself, especially after seeing something so horrible.

01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:09.000

And frankly, I was just, I was in press that you called the cops. Because, you know, that was, that was big of you because you don't know.

01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:15.000

What type of retaliation? That would have led to.

01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:16.000

No, I did not. Yeah.

01:28:16.000 --> 01:28:28.000

That was that was a big moment that was that was wrong and You had stayed away, but yet when you went back to the house and again, he did the same thing, right, where he had his arms outstretched.

01:28:28.000 --> 01:28:32.000

Forcing you to have this intimacy again.

01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:33.000

Yes.

01:28:33.000 --> 01:28:40.000

Can you talk about how you felt?

01:28:40.000 --> 01:28:41.000

Hmm. Higher.

01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:51.000

Tired. That was the biggest like. Just depleted. Just confused emotionally.

01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:59.000

Warren the F down like just gone at that point.

01:28:59.000 --> 01:29:06.000

I think what What prompted me to call the police was that you was hurting my friend. It was not hurting me.

01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:16.000

And so what prompted my protective. Qualities I can or protective behaviors were. To protect my friend.

01:29:16.000 --> 01:29:17.000

Yeah.

01:29:17.000 --> 01:29:20.000

And so.

01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:27.000

After that had happened. And I just I stayed with my friend that night. I went home and it was like I guess I need to go home.

01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:36.000

I don't know. I, I just. I was just so Confused. And all of his.

01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:46.000

Emotional abuse and witnessing the physical abuse, all this manipulation I just Don't know. What?

01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:54.000

Was going on? And so I started. Being able to find my voice a little bit at that point.

01:29:54.000 --> 01:30:06.000

Trying make some sense from him like I very, rare would there be just basically the only explanation that you had to where somebody would punch somebody.

01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:19.000

But I was just like, there's no excuse like why, and I'm starting to see through him at this point, but I still was so wrapped up in.

01:30:19.000 --> 01:30:22.000

His stuff.

01:30:22.000 --> 01:30:38.000

Yeah. Well, like you said, it's a process. It takes time. And again, you're just around people that just normal

01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:48.000

Yeah, a friend from, from home, so from out of town from Vegas had come over and like months later.

01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:56.000

After that happened and And Jason was able to talk to his friend about it and his friend like.

01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:04.000

Didn't seem surprised.

01:31:04.000 --> 01:31:05.000

Yeah

01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:12.000

Yeah. Which is something in itself. Surprised. And then didn't you have some other friends that basically said you need to support him through this court case?

01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:22.000

Yeah, yeah, I did. That was like our closest. Couple friends. We have like this set of different couples that we are friends with.

01:31:22.000 --> 01:31:33.000

Yeah, they said to support him and be there for him and. What if he goes to jail and what if he what happens to your house?

01:31:33.000 --> 01:31:37.000

Like, those aren't the questions to be asking.

01:31:37.000 --> 01:31:45.000

Yeah, you kept on, you kept on saying, you know, your friend's name was Mary. Well, what about Mary?

01:31:45.000 --> 01:31:46.000

What like It was all about Jason.

01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:50.000

Yeah. Yeah, right.

01:31:50.000 --> 01:32:01.000

So again, it's so like you have to be. You know, you really have to be kind to yourself because Everybody else was just normalizing this behavior.

01:32:01.000 --> 01:32:06.000

And you even mentioned to in the book that you had said it was our case. It wasn't even his case.

01:32:06.000 --> 01:32:08.000

It was our case.

01:32:08.000 --> 01:32:12.000

I felt like I was part of the legal. Thanks.

01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:21.000

Which just shows how just that level of just inter. You know, intertwine this in measurement, codependency to say it was our case.

01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:22.000

Yeah.

01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:31.000

And so then you guys go to court, you know, he kinda just gets nothing, just gets a slap in the breast and then you wrote down he said let's go on and celebrate and you're like celebrate for what and he goes I didn't go to jail.

01:32:31.000 --> 01:32:41.000

All I had to do is pay fines and I have the money to pay the fines. I want to go celebrate.

01:32:41.000 --> 01:32:42.000

So gross. All gross.

01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:49.000

Oh! You like, yeah, and even Charles like, oh my, okay, but in a way too though, I could.

01:32:49.000 --> 01:32:58.000

Oh my gosh, just kind of being. Just kind of being stuck in there. Okay, so I remember in one incident with my abuser.

01:32:58.000 --> 01:33:12.000

You know there was there was a court case. And you know the prosecutors sorry contacting me and of course I just completely fakeaked out. Oh my gosh, I don't even know how the police got called to that one incident.

01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:21.000

I don't remember what I completely disassociated myself. Whoa, but and it just came back to me right now about this.

01:33:21.000 --> 01:33:31.000

So I didn't, you know, I didn't show up the case in getting dismissed. And I think I remember when we got the news that it was dismissed, I just remember feeling so relieved.

01:33:31.000 --> 01:33:32.000

Yeah.

01:33:32.000 --> 01:33:43.000

IT. So coodles to you because when you're so in mesh like that I maybe would have celebrated him not going to jail.

01:33:43.000 --> 01:33:52.000

Oh gosh. So I love the fact that you said like, no. I'm not celebrating this.

01:33:52.000 --> 01:33:54.000

Yeah.

01:33:54.000 --> 01:33:56.000

Yeah.

01:33:56.000 --> 01:34:03.000

No, yeah, absolutely not. I'm going to watch cartoons, which I almost never did.

01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:11.000

I was like very much retreating to a younger version of myself that I knew. Needed some nourishing in care.

01:34:11.000 --> 01:34:15.000

Yeah, so you were, I mean, I thought that was so it's like, oh, there she is.

01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:23.000

She's getting a as hard as it is, but I'd like, mute you, you have talked about, you have talked about too, I think before the court case.

01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:33.000

You had gone in sick and we see there 2 or 3 weeks that you're really dizzy and you saw a doctor you saw an E and no one can tell you why you're dizzy.

01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:34.000

You go into that.

01:34:34.000 --> 01:34:52.000

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I feel like the symptoms were somewhere between cold and flu symptoms right like something along the lines but I also just felt Like the world was spinning, I didn't, I couldn't have.

01:34:52.000 --> 01:35:01.000

I kind of stand up on my own. And like to pause here with these terms that we also like use colloquially, the world was spinning.

01:35:01.000 --> 01:35:07.000

I literally felt dizzy, but like my world was fitting. I was like, I can't make sense of my world anymore.

01:35:07.000 --> 01:35:13.000

I don't know what's happening. This is not feeling safe and I don't know what to do.

01:35:13.000 --> 01:35:22.000

That there's all those, Like, figuratively, my world was spinning. Physically I was feeling busy.

01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:28.000

And then feeling that I couldn't stand up. So I was not standing up on my own 2 feet.

01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:40.000

Figuratively. Or physically. So I went to different doctors and try to figure out what was going on and They did not ask.

01:35:40.000 --> 01:35:42.000

If I was being abused.

01:35:42.000 --> 01:35:45.000

Hmm. Yeah.

01:35:45.000 --> 01:35:53.000

It has been. Recommended by the Who, the World Health Organization, that doctors screen for this.

01:35:53.000 --> 01:36:04.000

Their recommendations are as to screen people who are basically like childbearing age women. I think everybody should be screened for it regardless.

01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:09.000

Doesn't matter if your child bearing age. But yeah, there's recommendations for doctors to be screening for this just like to be screening for anxiety.

01:36:09.000 --> 01:36:21.000

Like I think Biden said like last year, everyone wants to every doctor should be screaming for anxiety.

01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:30.000

And depression. These things should be screened for when I went to 3 doctors asking for help. That would that could have been.

01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:32.000

The time I got help.

01:36:32.000 --> 01:36:38.000

Yeah, they could have giving you some resources you had mentioned if somebody had just asked.

01:36:38.000 --> 01:36:39.000

Yeah.

01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:49.000

And so it kinda goes into like, so your body. Is reacting physiologically to the stress that you're under.

01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:50.000

Yeah.

01:36:50.000 --> 01:37:02.000

You had talked about that you were gaining weight. And you just said it earlier, constant filling stress and you were drinking a bottle of wine and I tell cope with that.

01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:10.000

Can you explain, can you, go into that a little bit? How your body was. What you're experiencing.

01:37:10.000 --> 01:37:14.000

Yeah, so

01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:21.000

As we were talking about earlier and like the beginning of the story in the beginning of this podcast earlier.

01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:40.000

Being able to connect with your body and Like had I been able to. To have a connection to my body at that time more than I would have been able to listen to got instincts and feelings and paying attention to these jokes that were actually like.

01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:41.000

Put downs. Yeah.

01:37:41.000 --> 01:37:54.000

Quite harmful put downs. Yeah. And so over time, the more and more emotional abuse I was in during and like confusion that comes along with the manipulation, the gas lighting of the emotional abuse.

01:37:54.000 --> 01:37:55.000

Yeah.

01:37:55.000 --> 01:38:03.000

The more and more I dissociate from my body. And then I believe that my body responded, you are sick, something's wrong, which I believe it does.

01:38:03.000 --> 01:38:11.000

I believe our bodies will. Slow us down when we need to. To try and re-establish getting back in balance.

01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:16.000

And.

01:38:16.000 --> 01:38:22.000

Yeah, I just, I couldn't, I couldn't quite put it all together at that time.

01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:32.000

And And the more that I was starting to put things together, the more it was like very confusing and hard to come to terms with.

01:38:32.000 --> 01:38:40.000

So drink more and don't make sense of it and forget it all.

01:38:40.000 --> 01:38:41.000

Yeah.

01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:43.000

Forget it all. Right. Let's not feel it. Yeah.

01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:48.000

So let's talk about. How you're finally able to leave.

01:38:48.000 --> 01:38:53.000

Yeah.

01:38:53.000 --> 01:39:04.000

Well, I I'd planned this trip with my cousins and my sister and her husband. We were gonna go to Arizona.

01:39:04.000 --> 01:39:16.000

And. Prior to this trip. I started thinking maybe I need to talk to my sister and if I don't Say something to my sister.

01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:22.000

She's gonna know something anyways. She and I are very close. She's one of my best friends in life.

01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:25.000

Like, She'll know something's up.

01:39:25.000 --> 01:39:27.000

Yeah, she could just look at you and know.

01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:33.000

Yeah, so I'm like, I probably should say something to her, but I don't know that I'm ready, right?

01:39:33.000 --> 01:39:40.000

And so I had this really close, amazing friend. We're not as close with now, but we're still friends.

01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:49.000

But, I talk with her almost every day because we work together and then we just became like super close friends because of that.

01:39:49.000 --> 01:39:53.000

Anyway, so we're talking. And I asked her. For advice on whether or not I should tell my sister.

01:39:53.000 --> 01:40:05.000

And she. Yes, beautiful, non judgmental listening did not make any decisions for me. Let me come to terms.

01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:08.000

Myself that I should probably tell my sister.

01:40:08.000 --> 01:40:10.000

And you had to tell her the whole story, right? Yeah.

01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:20.000

Oh yeah, yeah, sorry. So I told her the whole story and then. The next day we're all like.

01:40:20.000 --> 01:40:29.000

The 4 of us, Jason. My sister and her husband are gonna go drive to Arizona and see her cousin.

01:40:29.000 --> 01:40:36.000

And. And that was when they pushed me down the stairs.

01:40:36.000 --> 01:40:37.000

Hmm.

01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:47.000

And my cousin, my sister, protected me staying with me and my brother-in-law. Protected me by staying with Jason and keeping him apart.

01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:49.000

Wow.

01:40:49.000 --> 01:40:57.000

And. We ended up driving back to they guess like. Our house is there the.

01:40:57.000 --> 01:41:04.000

My sister and her husband had their plan to get booked out of Vegas. I had to get we had to get back.

01:41:04.000 --> 01:41:05.000

Yeah.

01:41:05.000 --> 01:41:13.000

And All along the way, like my sister's kind of. You know, are you like, do you want to be with them?

01:41:13.000 --> 01:41:21.000

And I'm like, I just don't know. I don't know. And then we get back to Vegas and I am like.

01:41:21.000 --> 01:41:22.000

Yeah.

01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:26.000

What the hell are you pushed me down the stairs? And he's saying he didn't. And so I explained to my sister like he says he didn't.

01:41:26.000 --> 01:41:30.000

And she's like, that's gas lighting and I'm like, what's gas lighting?

01:41:30.000 --> 01:41:31.000

Oh! Yeah.

01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:39.000

Yeah. So she explains that and she's like, it's probably been happening this whole time.

01:41:39.000 --> 01:41:40.000

Oh gosh.

01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:43.000

You probably just didn't know because the, but you know, how converted it can be.

01:41:43.000 --> 01:41:44.000

It is.

01:41:44.000 --> 01:41:56.000

And. My sister and I and, and my sister's husband, we devised a plan to get me on a plane with them.

01:41:56.000 --> 01:42:01.000

To Seattle after that. And I left.

01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:14.000

Wow. And how, how did Jason react to you leaving?

01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:15.000

Oh.

01:42:15.000 --> 01:42:18.000

There's so much detail in here. I'm like, okay. But, he.

01:42:18.000 --> 01:42:28.000

Basically, I sent him a text saying this is where I we shared a car. So I sent him a text saying this is where your cars parked at the at the office.

01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:38.000

And he had his key and I just said I'm gonna be. Like going. I'm going home for a little while and I I'm not sure how long I'll be there.

01:42:38.000 --> 01:42:39.000

Oh!

01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:43.000

I just need to figure out because I also did not know that I was leaving him permanently at that point.

01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:44.000

Okay.

01:42:44.000 --> 01:42:53.000

I just, I like my sister's goal, rightly so, was like, get away from him long enough to think about what.

01:42:53.000 --> 01:42:54.000

Right.

01:42:54.000 --> 01:42:57.000

Heck it's been happening.

01:42:57.000 --> 01:43:14.000

Yeah, and then I from the airport called his mom to try to. Tell his mom about all the awful things that has her son had been doing so she could maybe talk some sense into it and she yelled at me and was like, I've known these things don't come between me and my family and.

01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:17.000

Whoa!

01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:18.000

Yeah.

01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:32.000

Yeah. And I heard from him. When he asked me where like the information about the whole warranty was like a couple of weeks, like maybe a week after I'd been there less than I just texted and I was like.

01:43:32.000 --> 01:43:44.000

It's on the side of the fridge, this magnet. Like. And the next I heard from him was being served with divorce papers.

01:43:44.000 --> 01:43:45.000

Yes.

01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:50.000

So you're lucky. Yeah, he didn't try and come back and try and woo you back with his grand dressers and promises.

01:43:50.000 --> 01:43:57.000

I'm gonna change, I promise.

01:43:57.000 --> 01:43:58.000

So how did

01:43:58.000 --> 01:44:04.000

No, we have been through all of that through like every time something had happened, right? Was I'm gonna change.

01:44:04.000 --> 01:44:13.000

Although I think. I mean for one like I'm in a different state like I flew home to Seattle from Las Vegas.

01:44:13.000 --> 01:44:14.000

I think not. Yeah.

01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:24.000

Yeah. But I think also once I talk to his mom, maybe that also put the nail on the coffin so to say maybe that mom was like Look, don't talk to her anymore.

01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:31.000

This is what she called and said. Maybe ended up being more helpful than I realized.

01:44:31.000 --> 01:44:39.000

Yeah, and I think, and again, just being around your family and being protected and save and then.

01:44:39.000 --> 01:44:48.000

Those people kind of lifting you up and you're like, no, it's not okay because again, like you're talking about, you're just sewn mesh, you're so entangled, it's almost as if like.

01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:57.000

Your judgment becomes so skewed that you don't know between good and bad, right and wrong.

01:44:57.000 --> 01:44:58.000

Yes.

01:44:58.000 --> 01:45:04.000

And in terms of how you should be treated. And it takes so much time. And you had gone through and.

01:45:04.000 --> 01:45:10.000

What made you start going to see, going to a support group for domestic violence survivors? How did that happen?

01:45:10.000 --> 01:45:19.000

So my friend, the first friend that I called to actually like talk about, should I talk with my sister, this friend.

01:45:19.000 --> 01:45:20.000

Oh.

01:45:20.000 --> 01:45:27.000

Kept told me to call the National Domestic Violence hotline and I was like, I don't know, is it domestic violence?

01:45:27.000 --> 01:45:28.000

Yeah.

01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:35.000

That's how little I knew. I had no idea. And my friend was like, please call them, please call them like just like every few days.

01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:44.000

Have you called them yet? You know, she would text me, email me, like, please, like even if you don't know if it's domestic violence, like they can help you figure that out.

01:45:44.000 --> 01:45:46.000

Oh, good.

01:45:46.000 --> 01:45:54.000

Yeah, yeah. She this friend had actually been, doing volunteer training for DV.

01:45:54.000 --> 01:46:03.000

So she was learning about this. Coincidentally the timing right like the timing was just she's learning about this.

01:46:03.000 --> 01:46:07.000

And I'm going through it.

01:46:07.000 --> 01:46:08.000

Yeah, so just.

01:46:08.000 --> 01:46:11.000

Whoa. Oh my gosh, it's crazy. Mary Carmichael.

01:46:11.000 --> 01:46:22.000

Yes. So eventually call the hotline and I tell them what happened. Like in just few sentences.

01:46:22.000 --> 01:46:26.000

And they say, yeah, that is domestic violence. And I'm like, but I don't understand what to do.

01:46:26.000 --> 01:46:33.000

Like, how can I ever talk to him again? And this was what was so helpful. They said.

01:46:33.000 --> 01:46:34.000

You're losing.

01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:39.000

You don't ever have to talk to them again if you don't want to. I was like, how?

01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:40.000

Yeah.

01:46:40.000 --> 01:46:47.000

The lawyers. You have to talk to him again if you don't want to. Your lawyers can do talking.

01:46:47.000 --> 01:47:01.000

I was like, oh. And that's what I thought like. Okay. Maybe there's some, I have a stronger sense of safety of.

01:47:01.000 --> 01:47:02.000

Yeah.

01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:07.000

Like I just did that if I had to go back and talk to him and figure out. What to do next with the house and the marriage.

01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:12.000

If I had to try and make those decisions with him, I was not going to be safe.

01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:19.000

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a really important to realize again that you are in this relationship for how long again?

01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:20.000

5 years.

01:47:20.000 --> 01:47:41.000

5 years. And again, it's just it all starts off with just little steps and the violence escalated with with the first slapping and then punching your friend pushing you down the stairs and it's only matter time before you would have gotten punched.

01:47:41.000 --> 01:47:42.000

Bye.

01:47:42.000 --> 01:47:47.000

Or something worse because once he Why? He's not gonna go back. He's just gonna continue to push it forward.

01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:48.000

So.

01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:55.000

Yeah, yeah, cycle of violence that escalates. It gets worse and worse. The violence gets worse and worse over time, starting emotional and physical.

01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:56.000

Yeah.

01:47:56.000 --> 01:48:02.000

And it gets more. Frequent. There's less time between instances as time goes on. So had I stayed in there.

01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:05.000

It would it would have been much worse.

01:48:05.000 --> 01:48:11.000

Yeah, he was he was definitely escalating. So it was a good thing too that that that incident.

01:48:11.000 --> 01:48:19.000

Was with a where you could they could get you out of there because you know you wouldn't have left.

01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:20.000

You would

01:48:20.000 --> 01:48:23.000

I don't, I mean, there is even times my sister was. We're having these conversations like as we're driving back to.

01:48:23.000 --> 01:48:31.000

Dr. Vegas from Arizona. My sister is like.

01:48:31.000 --> 01:48:41.000

You know you need to think about leaving and you know. I was like, but I have my house and my work and my family and she's like.

01:48:41.000 --> 01:48:50.000

I had actually been working from home for a company based in the Seattle area. So like my work was not actually keeping me there.

01:48:50.000 --> 01:48:51.000

Yeah.

01:48:51.000 --> 01:48:58.000

Anyways, and I'd planted this pomegranate tree and said to my sister, but my

01:48:58.000 --> 01:49:02.000

You're your baby. You put so much love into it.

01:49:02.000 --> 01:49:09.000

. I was so proud of this little But that's what I was thinking about. Not my safety.

01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:11.000

Yeah, yeah.

01:49:11.000 --> 01:49:15.000

Why not the Not the humans.

01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:27.000

No, but it's like, well, how do I leave? How am I and it can you just You're like, how do I and it's you talk about 2 you're just you're born emotionally strong, you weren't emotionally ready.

01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:30.000

And even when you make that decision, Do you really need that support system because your brain literally cannot think, well, how do I leave?

01:49:30.000 --> 01:49:38.000

What about my polygryanry? You're not thinking about your own safety.

01:49:38.000 --> 01:49:47.000

Yeah, because of that emotional abuse, right? That's what wore me down to not. Have that confidence and someone others.

01:49:47.000 --> 01:49:52.000

Here they're like, well, how did they, how did they not leave? I mean, there's the trauma. How did they not leave?

01:49:52.000 --> 01:49:58.000

I mean, there's the trauma bonding, there's the code dependency, there's the The shame and the kill, the societal reasons.

01:49:58.000 --> 01:49:59.000

Oh.

01:49:59.000 --> 01:50:06.000

And there's the emotional abuse that predicates the The physical abuse that wears the person down to begin with.

01:50:06.000 --> 01:50:12.000

It's almost it's almost in a way like when like almost kinda think the emotion abuse is grooming.

01:50:12.000 --> 01:50:13.000

Yeah.

01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:21.000

You're being room to the views and you accept it and it's part it's normalizing it and it's again it's just so insidious you don't even realize it.

01:50:21.000 --> 01:50:34.000

When it happens. Oh gosh, it just kind of makes me think of. When you when you said when when you said, well, is this domestic violence?

01:50:34.000 --> 01:50:44.000

And I remember thinking that too. Like, is this because in my head domestic violence, right? Like, okay, I grew up in the area, of the fair faucet, remember the burning bed movie?

01:50:44.000 --> 01:51:01.000

I don't know if you remember the fair faucet. She one of great movie where she portrayed a domestic violence victim and she was just getting feet all the time and you know black eyes and things like that and eventually she ended up sending fire to her views because she still beat.

01:51:01.000 --> 01:51:06.000

But in my head that wasn't domestic violence. So I'm like, well, how can this be? Because she's still beat, but in my head, that wasn't domestic violence.

01:51:06.000 --> 01:51:10.000

So I'm like, well, how can I'm not getting beaten up. Sure I got I'm getting pushed.

01:51:10.000 --> 01:51:13.000

I've got bruises on my arms. Sure, I've been slapped a couple times.

01:51:13.000 --> 01:51:18.000

Sure, I punch once, but. That's not domestic violence.

01:51:18.000 --> 01:51:19.000

Right.

01:51:19.000 --> 01:51:38.000

Yeah, and the emotional views too, just constantly. You know, being put down and just feeling so bad about yourself all the time and just, and I think what people don't realize too and especially as women when someone puts down the way you look in your parents You just internalize it so much.

01:51:38.000 --> 01:51:50.000

Yeah, there's such a. Societal need to you to look a certain way and especially if that way is to make your partner happy.

01:51:50.000 --> 01:51:55.000

And it's and what people don't realize too is that when someone is putting you down, it's just constant.

01:51:55.000 --> 01:51:56.000

Oh yeah.

01:51:56.000 --> 01:52:00.000

It's like every day where you just constantly getting criticized.

01:52:00.000 --> 01:52:07.000

And it's so normalized then you internalize all the messages because it's just that's what you hear all the time.

01:52:07.000 --> 01:52:11.000

Yeah, so when you're constantly getting criticized. Concly, you're not good enough.

01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:17.000

You don't look good enough. You're fat, whatever, you internalize, I'm not good enough.

01:52:17.000 --> 01:52:23.000

Hmm.

01:52:23.000 --> 01:52:24.000

Right.

01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:27.000

And this person makes me feel good and only he can make me feel good or she. And again, it's not something that happens overnight.

01:52:27.000 --> 01:52:34.000

It takes time. This is a grooming process that they do on you. And when the good moments happen, that's what you.

01:52:34.000 --> 01:52:44.000

That's what your brain launches onto for safety. So. You know again everyone I'm just gonna read again that quote from your from your third book because I think it's just so important.

01:52:44.000 --> 01:52:54.000

Be, you know, again, everyone survivors, friends, families of survivors, please be gentle with yourself and survivors, you know, because the process takes time.

01:52:54.000 --> 01:53:03.000

Kate, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and being so brave to, write these books.

01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:15.000

You know, I just, I get chicken scan. I get goose phones just thinking about it and just.

01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:16.000

Yeah.

01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:18.000

Just help brave you are to just to just write about it. Cause it's tough. And thank you for talking about it.

01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:20.000

Tell us what you're doing now.

01:53:20.000 --> 01:53:25.000

Yeah, well, and just in response, thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to share about this, to help people, right?

01:53:25.000 --> 01:53:35.000

The idea is that If you've been through it, then these looks will help you understand it if you have been.

01:53:35.000 --> 01:53:37.000

Yes.

01:53:37.000 --> 01:53:45.000

Known so much gone through it. It'll especially help you understand what has happened. And if you haven't.

01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:52.000

Then it'll help you prevent it by knowing. So anybody can read these and so I appreciate just.

01:53:52.000 --> 01:53:56.000

Anybody can learn something from the conversation that we had. .

01:53:56.000 --> 01:54:07.000

And again, your books are card warning signs. They're a memoir about domestic violence. There's 3 volumes, all easy to read, very engaging to read.

01:54:07.000 --> 01:54:10.000

It just pulls you into your story. How do people get your books?

01:54:10.000 --> 01:54:30.000

Yes, so, on my website, so, for that in the show notes or however you do, my website is K A T E M A G E A U.

01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:35.000

So on my website you can find that links to my books. You can get, ebooks directly from the website.

01:54:35.000 --> 01:54:39.000

Print books from Barnes and Double or Amazon. And then you can also see about my counseling.

01:54:39.000 --> 01:54:57.000

So I do individual counseling with people ages 12 and up. On domestic violence, anxiety, depression, PTSD, working with people with biodiversity such as ADHD and people on the autism spectrum.

01:54:57.000 --> 01:55:09.000

Or get people who have experienced trauma, people are just wanting to explore like academics and career moves next, all sorts of different things.

01:55:09.000 --> 01:55:20.000

And I'm also working on creating some counseling groups. So for people wanting to get that support in a group, which I find to be super, super helpful.

01:55:20.000 --> 01:55:26.000

And I have empowered dating workshops, which are on the third Thursday of every month.

01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:31.000

So the next one is gonna be June fifteenth. Is that rainy or hair studio in West Seattle?

01:55:31.000 --> 01:55:38.000

So. Out to Megan, the owner there and her letting me use this place to collaborate.

01:55:38.000 --> 01:55:43.000

All the information for all that is on my website.

01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:48.000

And it's the Empower Dating Workshop. It's gonna come up on June fifteenth.

01:55:48.000 --> 01:55:58.000

7 to 9 pm at Brainer here studio again that's in West Seattle and you have that empower dating workshop is that every third Thursday.

01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:13.000

Every Thursday, yeah. So the idea is that we talk about warning signs. We talk about boundaries, talk about being setting, when it to being chosen to check.

01:56:13.000 --> 01:56:31.000

Looking at the the profiles look at your own profiles if you want looking at messages Just explaining and understanding things and working together interactive as a group in the workshop to make sure that we are arming ourselves with knowledge to feel.

01:56:31.000 --> 01:56:37.000

Safe and confident about dating and meeting new people.

01:56:37.000 --> 01:56:38.000

$45 per person.

01:56:38.000 --> 01:56:42.000

And how much are their workshops? Oh, okay. $45 from 7 to 9 p.

01:56:42.000 --> 01:56:57.000

M. So important. And again, her book is called Morning Signs. We've got Kate Mageau here, a memoir about domestic violence, check it out, go to her website, Kate KATE, K A T E.

01:56:57.000 --> 01:57:08.000

Mageau is felt m a G E A u.com. Thank you so much, Kate, for sharing your story and talking about this difficult subject.

01:57:08.000 --> 01:57:14.000

Thank you so much, Lonnie. I really appreciate this experience and the collaboration with you.

01:57:14.000 --> 01:57:23.000

And thank you all for our listeners out there and hope you enjoy this this this other episode of the Oakyama Law Podcast.

01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:29.000

We're in, we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the area of family long collaborative divorce.

01:57:29.000 --> 01:57:39.000

Until next time, I am Lani Akiana. Be healthy and be safe.