The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Caroline Pak

In this episode, Lani speaks with Caroline Pak, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Divorce and Transitions Coach, who helps people going through divorce navigate the financial and emotional challenges of the process.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast. I am Ululani, Lani Akiona and in our podcast we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce.

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And today I am so excited to have with me Caroline Pak. The founder of Foundation's Divorce Solution.

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Welcome, Caroline.

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Hi, Lani. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

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So glad that you're here today and Caroline has over 20 years of experience in finance and world management.

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She is, she's got a lot of certification. She's a certified divorce financial analyst, a certified divorce coach, a certified divorce and transitions coach.

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And a divorce mediator. And again, welcome to the show, Caroline. We're so.

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Excited to have a year because one of the reasons I became a lawyer was because I'm not good with.

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Finances and math and stuff. So, so happy to have you here to kind of break down what it is that you do in terms of finance in the areas of divorce and family law.

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Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

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Okay. Yeah. Okay, great. So I noticed that you began work as a personal banker.

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So why don't why don't you tell us about that? So you got started in personal banking and then.

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Okay.

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Continue my financial journey. Essentially when I started as a financial or personal banker, Did the job description was to work with people and helping them find solutions?

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And helping them learn and understand their finances. And when I read the job description I was like this is exactly what I want to do.

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I want to sit with people. Really get to know them, understand their needs, their wants. And really put together.

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A plan for them. Or to say, okay, what can we do next? And so that's how it all started.

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Cool.

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I actually started off as a teller for like a minute. A minute counting the pennies that was not my gift but sitting with the clients That was my joy.

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Okay.

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That was where I thrived. And so after being a personal banker, I became a business specialist and started working with the small businesses around me and getting to know.

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Our local business owners and What makes them Do what they do. And keep doing what they do. Right?

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Right.

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As we talked a little bit earlier, what was their why? Just as what is our why, right?

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Right.

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What is, what is that? I don't.

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So yeah, getting to know the local businesses and then I got registered. And got my series 7 and 3 6 6 And I'm over, it's, Finra licenses.

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So Series 7 is so that you could sell stocks, bonds, mutual funds, do investment trading.

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Oh. Okay.

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Series 6 6 is, it's the blue sky law. Basically so that in the state that you're registered in, you can continue to do investment advice and such.

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Okay.

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So that would. Way into wealth management. When the financial crisis, had hit. Around 2010, I moved over to the investment side and left the banking side.

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Okay.

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Oh.

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And started learning about wealth management and working with different teams. Before i launch foundations divorce i was working with ultra high network clients in Wealth Management Teams.

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And so I got to understand and learned quite a bit about. The different strategies. That our clients utilize.

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To maximize whether it's earning dividends and how to utilize that as income or doing tax loss harvesting so that they could minimize their tax payments.

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Wow.

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Right.

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Just little things within, you know, the little tricks of the trades that you learned by being in the industry for decades.

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So that is how I started my financial career. Yeah.

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Wow. And so you started foundations divorce solutions in 2020. And so you started it during the pandemic?

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Wow.

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I did. I did. So my passion.

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And understanding that there was a need. Within the divorce realm. Came from one of our, private client groups clients.

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Okay.

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She came to us post divorce. And it was clear that. She did not have anybody set her down.

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And go over the basics of cash flow and day to day budgets. And it was clear that The life she was living, she was no longer able to live.

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But nobody really sat down with her to explain. That some things really needed to be adjusted. Or based on the budget to go back and have conversation with her attorney.

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Okay.

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To say look, I'm in the red every single month. I think I need a little bit more in child support and spousal maintenance.

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Is it possible?

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Wait, did she count? I'm sorry, did she come to during the divorce or after the divorce?

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Okay, so after the divorce. Oh, right.

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After, after it was all said and done. So there was nothing we can do. Right? Whereas if we had sat with her prior to.

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Right. Yeah, yeah.

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We could have gone through her budget. We could have said, hey. Is this a balancing of?

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Needing to shave off a little bit. Or asking for more. And those are 2 very real options.

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Right.

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Right? But when somebody comes after the divorce, It is what it is. You're stuck. You're stopped.

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You know, and so.

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It's you're stuck. Yeah. Wow.

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Really?

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I was getting phone calls from her like every couple of weeks asking for money. Out of her retirement account.

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Wow. Wow.

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Yeah. And she wasn't taking. Tax deductions.

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Oh.

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She was at that time, 43 years old. So she was essentially getting double tax and didn't know she was.

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It was not a good situation. Knowing that short term, she didn't have the cash flow.

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Midterm, you know, she was a stay at home mom. But when her husband was making almost a million a year, they had a certain lifestyle.

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Wait, what did her husband do for a living?

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Oh, oh shoot, okay, but I can guess I'm gonna guess he was a financial advisor.

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That's my guess.

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That?

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A 1 million.

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I'm not going to disclose that. Ha! Really? There's a lot of people who make over a million or around a million, you know in our in Seattle metropolitan area.

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Yeah, we have a lot of people who make a lot of money.

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Okay. You know what I forget that's a good point right they don't he was There is some big wig white color guide.

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Okay, that's true. Maybe working for Amazon, maybe working for Microsoft. Something right at Google.

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So. Microsoft, Google, you know, there's so many different options in Seattle.

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Hey.

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Okay, so she's a gosh stay at home husband making a million a year So sound like she really could have benefit from someone like you to guide her through the divorce to negotiate what she really needed.

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Right.

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Just to have conversation, right? Just to have conversation and knowledge because Something that I do with every single one of my clients is the spending plan.

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He's fine.

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Okay.

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I sit in detail. The budget essentially to say what's coming in, what's going out.

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Yeah.

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We talk in detail about what's going out. And that's where we get to have conversation to say is this need or is this a want?

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If it's a want, is this something that we can pause on? For just a little bit until there is more cash flow.

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Yeah.

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Right? I mean, It's a joke, but it's not a joke. There's a certain lifestyle and a certain way of living that our clients get accustomed to.

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For many of my clients, I'd hate to see it. The Metsball budget is real.

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Okay. That's

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It's, it's real. The Met Spa budget is real because there's a certain image that they have to project.

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Wow, great, right.

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For the society. That they they are, you know, in, right? If If a spouse is making a million dollars, there's a certain image.

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Hmm.

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Or a certain way of living that one has to project. It's just part of the game, right?

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So for me to have conversation with my client to say, okay. I'm seeing that your monthly or your quarterly or, you know, your annual Met Spot budget is X amount.

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Wow.

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Is there any way we could extend the time? Between your visits. So instead of going to get Bo Talks every 3 months, can we extend it to 4 to 5 months?

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Yeah.

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Wow. Wow.

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Is that possible so that we could stretch the dollars, right? It's a silly conversation. But it's a real conversation.

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Right, right. No, I just

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Right.

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Right? Even when clients are divorced, they're still an image for the ex spouse. To hold up.

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It's part of the agreement.

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Well, especially when there's, yeah, when there's kids involved too. Cause she's gonna be seen at these different things with Get right.

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She's gonna be seen. Right? He's gonna be seen exactly.

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She still has to put up that image.

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You gotta look still a good. Okay. Wow, I didn't think about it in that sense, but it makes sense.

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The meds fall budget.

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It's, I know it sounds so silly, but when we're talking about high net worth clients.

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Okay.

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These are some other concerns. These are some of the concerns. The restaurant budget is different.

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Than a middle class income budget, right? There are certain areas that the family had gone to be seen.

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Okay.

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To network. This is all part of how we accumulate wealth. We don't talk about it, but it comes up.

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We have to. So for this particular client I was, I was brokenhearted every time I spoke to her.

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She was weeping every single time because she stuck in a rock in a hard place.

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Okay.

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Right.

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She was stuck because The divorce was finalized. There is no way to go back. Right? The negotiations were already done.

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Yeah.

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Whereas if we had sat down and just had conversation.

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I could have had to come to Jesus chat with her. Or we could have said, hey, let's go back to your attorney and see.

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Okay.

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We can make sure that your financial solid and that we can have conversation. About the ramifications of not having the often spousal maintenance.

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Right.

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Even if the negotiated spousal maintenance is bigger upfront and it tapers down over time. So that it gives the lesser earning spouse time.

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To get acclimated into a new job. And get their income. Just conversation.

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Okay. Go ahead.

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So you're working? No, some trying to frame my question in my head. So you're working with this client.

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There's a

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And then in your head you're like, oh, so there's there's a need for other people to kind of get, I guess, in a way.

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Coaching or structure guidance.

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Okay.

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Yeah. Again, once the settlement has been agreed to. The CR 2 A signed. It's over.

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It's over. Yeah.

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Right, and the CR 2 A, I'm sorry to interrupt you. The CR 2 A is called a, it's the CR 2 A.

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Yeah.

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Solomon agreement and when you go to mediation of the what the whole goal of mediation is to to reach compromise to reach an agreement and see our 2 ages stands for the court rule that references the settlement agreement.

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Yeah.

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So legal speak it's just CR to agreement means the settlement agreement. That memorializes what the parties agree to at mediation and what it is when everyone the party sign off on it and their attorneys that they have attorneys and it's essentially minding.

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It's binding on the parties. So that way people the next day of the have buyers or more, they can't back out of your agreements or check, change your minds are stuck.

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I can't back out. Yeah, you're stuck. Yeah, you're stuck. You made an agreement.

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You, Yeah. Yeah, it's a yeah, it's a contract.

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It's a contract. Right? So before you sign the contract, let's get all the information.

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Yeah.

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Hmm.

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Let's make sure you know black and white where things stand. You know, for my mediation clients, the things that I relate to them in the initial premediation meeting is The numbers are easy.

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Oh.

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Great.

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They're black and white. It is what it is. But how do we divide them? Is based on the emotion.

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Right.

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It's based on where the mind is set. And are we able to have conversations so that if there is any anchoring for both parties that we're willing to release a little bit of the anchoring.

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And allow for movement towards middle so that we can. Maybe not get the perfect settlement. But get settlements that work for both parties.

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Again, numbers of black and white. We can't add in dollars. When there isn't any, right?

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So what do we have that we can work with? Again, that's part of where we might need to have a come to Jesus chat.

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Right? We're going from. Many times one or 2 incomes and one household and now going to 2 households.

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Right.

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And you know?

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It's not cheap to go to 2 households. Rent in Seattle. Is not cheap.

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And then just kind of just switching gears because I don't want people to think that oh well you're she only works or she's only for ultra Network clients ultra high network clients.

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No.

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Yeah, what your services are good for people going through divorce and Need help figuring out how do you go from 2 incomes to one incomes?

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Yeah.

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And how do you help people do that?

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Again, part of the foundational. Key items that we do is going through the spending plan.

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Okay, right.

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Right? We look at everybody's incomes. Bring it to the table. We talk about.

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What are the needs? What are the wants? What are the assets? How can we make sure that everybody's wants are on the table from the gecko and then from their figure out is it possible?

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If it's possible, what do we need to do to make it happen?

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Oh, okay.

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Besides the finances, actually. The thing that I work with most, I believe, is truly to hold space for my clients whether it is a mediation client or it is a litigation support client.

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Really is to hold space. Right now going through divorce. They are in the middle of trauma. Whether they recognize it or not, it is traumatic.

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. That's correct.

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Okay.

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And so they're fight flight or freeze, the parasympathetic nerves are engaged.

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Yeah.

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And I don't know for how long their parasympathetic nerve has been in this fight flight or free state.

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It takes a little time to undo and get to a place where they feel grounded and off. That they are now in their.

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Excuse me, they are in the sympathetic nerve. To get them into the parasympathetic nerve so that The cortisol levels are lower.

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So they drop down.

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Right.

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And the clarity of mind comes. And in the clarity of mind. Is where now the decisions can be made.

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Yeah.

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When you're totally triggered. It doesn't matter what good thing is being said. All you're thinking about is I am written anxiety.

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I can't think straight. I've got brain fog. I just want to be away from here.

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Right.

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Right. So the work that I do really is to help them. Settle back down into the parasympathetic nervous system.

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And when they are finally feeling grounded enough. We start to have conversation. And as soon as I recognize that they are back in their sympathetic nervous system.

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We say pause for this time. We'll meet again. At another time to discuss the next items.

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Holding space, go ahead.

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Okay. And so. No, go ahead.

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Holding space I think is something that most of us are unfamiliar with.

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Yeah, true.

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And so when we do receive it, it's sort of like this. Big gentle hug. A warm refreshing breeze just blowing on you.

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And there's just some comfort.

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Yeah.

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Let's see. Do you mind if we try and role play this for a second? Cause I think it's really hard to, to grasp, that term honing space.

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Yeah.

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So let's say I'm, I don't know how you want to do, do you want me to be the mediation client?

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Okay. Sure.

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And you're the mediator or do you want me to be like I'm the housewife, the stay at home mom, and you're helping me do my budget.

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Which one do you want? Okay.

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Yeah, yeah, whatever you wanna choose. Go for it! Hmm.

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Okay, I have to have to get into character. I gotta figure out which one I wanna do. Okay, so I guess I'll just be, so you're the mediator.

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We're in our, is the husband with me or are you meeting with me separately right now?

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Okay.

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I normally try to meet with them separately for the reason that You're getting divorced. Sometimes it's happy, sometimes it's not.

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You know?

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It's It's tough. Okay, so you're meeting we're doing our individual meeting or caucus.

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Yeah.

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I'm upset Caroline, I'm so upset, you know, I've been staying at home taking these kids for taking care of these kids for 15 years supporting him while he's building his career.

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And now, now that he's making a million dollars, he just wants to screw me over. I can't, I can't get by on $500 in child support.

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That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. How am I supposed to, how am I supposed to pay my bills? How am I supposed to buy a new home?

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I don't know what to do. I'm so upset. I'm in any time to go back.

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I haven't worked in 15 years. I don't even know. I don't know how I'm supposed to go back in and work again.

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Where am I gonna get hired? I've gotta get training. I need to look into that. I gotta take Jimmy and Tanya, Jimmy's in soccer, and the Tania wants to do gymnastics?

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:29.000

He's so unreasonable. He's so selfish. He doesn't appreciate anything that it done.

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:38.000

Yeah, I think I'm done. I don't know what else to complain about.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.000

Okay. It's a lot. That's a lot that you're processing right now. I completely understand the overwhelm.

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:52.000

And you have every reason to be. It is scary. It is so scary to go from. Being married.

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:59.000

For 15 years. Staying at home. To now thinking about. I don't know if I'm gonna survive.

00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.000

Right. Right.

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:18.000

Yeah. Are you open to sitting with me and looking at some of the expenses that you have currently and then looking at possibly what the expenses might look like in in the near future immediately after divorce.

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:25.000

And then making sure that we stay in the black. So that at least for your peace of mind, you know.

00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:31.000

That you're not going into debt or that you're gonna have any lack. How does that sound?

00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.000

Yeah, that'd be really helpful.

00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:35.000

Perfect.

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:42.000

Wow. You have such a soon voice too. It's just immediately calming. Yeah.

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.000

Thank you.

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:47.000

Oh wow.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:53.000

You know, one of the stories that I like to share. So actually, I give an assignment to all of my consultations.

00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.000

Okay.

00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:03.000

And to every single client, I always continually ask. And it's the best life best self exercise.

00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:06.000

Oh.

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:18.000

The exercise I give them is a little, but it's still scientific. It seems,oohoo initially, cause I'll ask them, can you please ride out on paper?

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.000

Right.

00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.000

What your life will look like a year to 3 years after divorce. What would your ideal life look like?

00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.000

Wow. Okay.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:34.000

I say as you're writing it out Let that happy feel rise up. And as it rises, just sit with it.

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:35.000

Okay.

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:41.000

The Woohoo Part is. But it's a little bit of dreaming, a little bit of visioning.

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:50.000

But there is an actual physiological change that happens as the happy fields rise up. Your cortisol level goes down.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:57.000

Right.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000

Yeah.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.000

So for many of my clients. Not sleeping through the night? Not an easy thing. Once they write this out, I ask them to think about it.

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:07.000

As they're going to sleep. Let the happy fields rise up again as they're about to go to sleep.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.000

Wow.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:13.000

Imagine where they're living. Imagine what they're doing, who they're spending time with.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:19.000

Are they vacationing? You know, how are they spending time with their children if they have children? Are they dating?

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:35.000

What is their new relationship look like? Right it out. Are there? Different things that they used to do before marriage.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.000

Oh gosh.

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.000

You know, whether it's like for one of my clients, it was stained glass art. He had stopped doing his art.

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:49.000

Because the family life got really busy. And so I said, how does that look like to incorporate your art back into your life?

00:24:49.000 --> 00:25:01.000

And just a big smile comes out. So every time I meet with them. I ask every consultation, this is what I leave them with.

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:10.000

Because outside of just the cortisol, the parasympathetic, it really is actually to say this is where you want to end up.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:22.000

Can we budget it? In the divorce settlement. Can we help? Foundationally fill the steps to get to that place in a year to 3 years.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:30.000

Is it possible? And if it is. How do we request? Asset divisions.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:40.000

Mate, spousal maintenance, child support, so that we can build that place. So that we can actually integrate each step.

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:51.000

To get to that person's best life and their best self. What are my clients? Who came to me initially.

00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:52.000

Yeah.

00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:59.000

Was scared to get divorce. No, I worked with her as a coach more than I was not the mediator in the situation, but.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.000

Okay.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:08.000

Met with the husband and the wife and the husband's like, we gotta sell the house. And she's like, I'm not selling the house until our kids are out That's at least another 2 years, right?

00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.000

Right, I hear that. I hear that a lot. Huh.

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:27.000

But she took the brave step. Writing out her best self and best life. And in our next meeting we had a conversation she said you know Caroline I don't wanna live in Seattle anymore.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:38.000

Is it okay? Where would you consider moving to? Oh, have you ever been there? Just like, But.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.000

Wait, where does she want? To?

00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:42.000

Oh, a different state. Hmm.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:48.000

2 different states. She's like, I'm, yeah, I, she said I'm done with, you know, Washington State.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.000

Right.

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:56.000

So I said, have you ever been to the state? And she's like, no. I said, would you be willing to schedule a trip?

00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:08.000

Maybe we could find some realtors in the area. And figure out if The neighborhood suits what you need.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000

Okay.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.000

The school district fits what your son will need. She's like, let's do it. So she booked a trip.

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:20.000

We found her realtor. She met with a realtor and ended up finding a new community build.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:21.000

Oh goodness.

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.000

And Kame back and said, I'm ready to sell the house. She ended up selling the house.

00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:24.000

Wow. Wow.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:34.000

Yeah, she ended up And she was. She worked part time. Fairly we're making like $30,000 a year.

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:35.000

Yeah, well.

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:45.000

So nothing, right? But they sold a house at the height of the market. And so she had more than enough cash.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:56.000

After paying off all their debts. Paying back all the taxes. She was able to buy this new built house.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:04.000

With cash. So she has no mortgage payment. She was able. No mortgage payment.

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:05.000

She was able to move to the new state. She now owns an asset. Yeah.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:15.000

No mortgage payment. Oh Oh my god. Is it? Wait, was a new was it was a new state funny?

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Shoot. Part time but

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:21.000

Part time, but I think You found it, but they still get some weather.

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.000

Sunnier than Seattle? Okay.

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:31.000

Sunnier than Seattle for sure. Yeah. But she has. No mortgage payment.

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:32.000

Yeah, amazing.

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:40.000

She had enough cash left in the bank so that once she moved to the new state. She was able to take a little time.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:53.000

To settle in. Start building her community. 2 start her new life post divorce. Something that when I first met with her and her husband.

00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:58.000

Okay. Yeah.

00:28:58.000 --> 00:28:59.000

Yeah.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:05.000

It's not on the radar. By doing this best self best life exercise. It opened her up for new possibilities, new hope, new dreams, new visions.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:14.000

And in that, some very difficult decisions were made. Some anchoring. Was released.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.000

That's the

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.000

Yeah.

00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:24.000

That is so amazing some anchoring was released. Wow. No, cause you hear that too a lot.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:36.000

It just, you know, people get stuck on the home all the time. And to kind of help them in a way shift their perspective, shift their mindset release at anchor and just the financial freedom that she now has.

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.000

It's transformative. That's what it is. Yeah, working with you, transformative.

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:44.000

Right? So. It's, It's the magic. It's the transitions.

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.000

Yeah.

00:29:46.000 --> 00:30:01.000

That really are my passion when I can see that light in my client size is there like. This is not what I expected going through divorce.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:02.000

Right.

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:13.000

I said, who said your life's over because you're going through divorce? Who said that the shifts that you are having now is to help you?

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:14.000

Right.

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.000

To have confidence enough and agency enough in your own self. To understand your own worth. That you can walk into that best life.

00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:27.000

That you deserve it and that with some strategic steps. Some shifts in our mindsets. All this possible.

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.000

We can do it.

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:39.000

You know, I think is uniquely fascinating about you, Caroline, is the fact that you've got, you know, you got your experience in financial and wealth management.

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:53.000

And then you're a divorce coach and transitions coach so you're not only walking people through this emotional aspect but then you're able to Look at, you know, help them plan a new budget.

00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:54.000

Yeah.

00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:00.000

Help them financially figure out what's that like and that's. That is such unique combination?

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:01.000

It's a niche. It's a niche.

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:14.000

It's cause I know and just for people I think I'm up we're gonna have to explain to people what it is exactly, you know, what would a divorce financial analyst is, what do you do?

00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:15.000

Yeah.

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:20.000

And then what a divorce coach is because I know people that are divorced financial analysts and they have an accounting background.

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:28.000

I know people that are divorced. Coaches and they normally come from like a psychology background, but you have both.

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:35.000

So can you explain like what it is a divorce financial, certified divorce financial analyst is?

00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:53.000

So essentially, I look at the finances of the couple, you know, whether it's the basics of the budget or the spending plan, the budget or the spending plan, or looking at the assets to say strategically, how do we divide the assets to say the budget or the spending plan or looking at the assets to say strategically, how do we divide the assets so that there is a lease amount of Tax

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:54.000

Okay.

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:09.000

liabilities. How do we, again, utilize something such as a tax loss harvest? So that both parties are not left with a huge tax bill, whether it's capital gains or due to income.

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:16.000

How do we look at all the aspects of the finances, understanding the short term, the midterm and the long term?

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:17.000

. Okay

00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:33.000

Finances, whether it's cash flow in the the day after divorce to midterm can I put money away for my retirement and then in retirement do I have enough on what does my lifestyle look like in retirement?

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.000

Long term, right?

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:49.000

Yeah. So to look at all of that, also, you know, if my clients have joint brokerage accounts outside of the retirement accounts How do we look at how to divide?

00:32:49.000 --> 00:33:02.000

The shares. And depending. How do we make sure that one or the other is not left with the entirety of the capital gains taxes in the case.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.000

No. Right.

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:10.000

They need to raise money. Right? That their strategy behind that.

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:11.000

And the, go ahead.

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:21.000

The majority. The maturity of non financial people, especially people who haven't worked in wealth management or investments.

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:32.000

Management wouldn't understand how the capital gains works or the nuances of the back office of how to structure the transfer agreement.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:41.000

To make sure that It's clear. That one person is not stock. Having to pay the majority of the Capitol's gains taxes.

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:48.000

If they have to sell their assets. Some of my clients do have to sell their assets to raise cash.

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:49.000

Okay.

00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:53.000

So how do we make sure that it is equitable? Hi, RAY. How do we make sure that it's fair?

00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000

Right.

00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:05.000

Right. Right. And I think what's important for people to realize that even if you just have, even if you're going through divorce and the biggest asset you have is your home and retirement accounts.

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:26.000

The benefit of working with a certified divorce financial analyst such of yourself or CDFA is the fact you said it, you can help them figure out short short-term midterm and long-term.

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.000

It's.

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.000

That financial strategy, whereas attorneys, we can only figure out the short term. Like the day after that of course, what does this division look like?

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:38.000

Yeah, it's literally what does the division look like and there's no planning involved. That's not your specialty, just this law is not my specialty.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.000

Alright.

00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:42.000

We might know the periphery of it. But that's not something that we know in death, right?

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:49.000

Right. Right.

00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.000

Yeah.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:35:04.000

So for my clients as the CDFA, like right now, a lot of the conversations are.

00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:05.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.000

How do we put together? An agreement that uniquely fits their needs. With the housing prices so high, the interest rate so high, how do we make agreements?

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:18.000

So that neither of the parties are in. Financial dire situations, especially regarding, do they have a home to live in?

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.000

Right.

00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:25.000

Right? If the basic needs aren't met. Come on now, they are going to be in fight flight or freeze.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:35.000

Automatically. So how do we get them out of that, right? How do we put together a creative situation that works solely for this couple.

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.000

Most of it is having open conversation. Keeping a space that feels safe enough that they're willing to throw out ideas.

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:52.000

I'm also one of those types of people where I throw out ideas. I let my clients know I'm going to toss out thoughts.

00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:53.000

Ha ha.

00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.000

And it's going to be like spaghetti. Chicks on the wall? Great.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.000

Yeah.

00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.000

Right.

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.000

If it doesn't, Let's try to figure something else out. And you know, you had mentioned like My style of mediation, my style.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:18.000

Litigation support is very different. Then some of my counterparts. Part of it is because I hold space for both.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.000

Huh.

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.000

All different types of scenarios. So I try to meet my client exactly. Where they're at.

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:23.000

Yeah.

00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:30.000

But still creatively put together a package that works for them financially. While holding that space so that they feel safe.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000

Right.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:41.000

That they feel heard, that they understand that the decisions that they're making, we're trying to get all of the blind spots lit up.

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:55.000

So that they take into consideration all the different factors. And in understanding and learning. They now have agency.

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:56.000

Right.

00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:00.000

And in the agency. The fear of divorce, the fear of the unknown. It's just a little bit less.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:01.000

And that's when the magic happens.

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:13.000

Okay. And I think that's and I think that's a good way to try to transition into explaining your role as being a certified divorce coach and transition coach.

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:17.000

Could you go into that?

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000

Right, great, yeah.

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:23.000

So again, it's all integrated, right? The transition starts from the start. The first meeting.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:28.000

. Okay

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.000

Their best life. Okay, that's a transition piece, right?

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:38.000

When I ask them to write out their best life themselves. Right? That's the transition piece. It's having them understand that it's not just some pipe stream.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:39.000

Okay.

00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:50.000

It's something that we can look at, that's the future. Now with the finances, lock it backwards.

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000

Oh.

00:37:51.000 --> 00:38:00.000

Now with different mindset shifts, walk it backwards so that each step that they take. That is reality.

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.000

So helpful. Okay.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:06.000

That is reality. I'll give you an example. So I have my own best self best life exercise, right?

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.000

I've got short term. Oh yeah. You know, I have to like, and for a while I did it because I'm a very big picture thinker.

00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:12.000

Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:20.000

So I have very long term goals already. Mpped out for myself and then I'll break it down.

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.000

Okay.

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:32.000

But I never wrote out. My best self and my best life in the next year. One of the things that I had written down was that I'd like to take up running again.

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:37.000

Oh. Oh.

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:38.000

Wow.

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.000

I'd like to run, you know, 3 to 5 miles. Every day every other day. That was what I wrote down.

00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:53.000

And I tried. I actually downloaded the couch to 10 K and was starting to do that and it just wasn't fitting for me.

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:54.000

Okay.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:12.000

It just wasn't. So then I dropped it. Then recently I started walking again. Part of part of my journey this year has really been if I'm gonna meet with my clients on a parasympathetic level.

00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:13.000

Great.

00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000

If I am working so hard to safety and security. I need to do that for myself. And so I've been working on a lot of somatic exercises.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:30.000

You know, doing the yin and the restorative portion of yoga so that I'm constantly allowing myself into the parasympathetic state.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:40.000

And so walking is also part of. The somatic part of the parasitic. So I'm averaging like 3 miles a day.

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:41.000

Wow.

00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:49.000

And literally just the epiphany happened yesterday as I was walking. I'm like, I keep this up, my legs are going to be strong enough.

00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:55.000

I'm gonna have endurance and I'm actually naturally just gonna start jogging.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:04.000

And in that I was like I wrote this down in my short term, best life best self. It's happening because I had already thought it.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.000

Wow.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:17.000

And in the subconscious things are starting to just shift and move towards that goal. Not that I, not like when I actually downloaded the app to be like, I'm gonna run 10 K.

00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000

Right.

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:25.000

No, this is. Organically happening on the subconscious level. A meeting, right? Yeah.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:30.000

That transition. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.000

Yeah.

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:34.000

Yeah, I just.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:35.000

Yeah.

00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.000

This is not the conversation you thought we were gonna have today, right? Yeah.

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:44.000

No, no, I did not but in my mind is still fish it's my mind is blown right now.

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:52.000

It's just very so It's so intuitive and just so organic and just so important.

00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:58.000

The, is just this whole thing. I just look away how you explain that like it's transitioning.

00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:03.000

From your life isn't over just because you're getting divorced.

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:08.000

Right.

00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:09.000

Yeah.

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.000

Oh, absolutely not. I think that's so scary for our long term. Marriage clients. If this is their only identity for the last 30 years, 20 years.

00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:19.000

Yeah. Right? 20 years, yeah.

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:20.000

It's scary.

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.000

It's super scary. To think of what's next.

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:28.000

Exactly.

00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:29.000

Is there Oh.

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:38.000

Right? To think of is our hope. I have met, is there hope, right? I had met with a friend of mine recently who is considering divorce.

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:39.000

Oh.

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:47.000

Who, who is? Who's been married? Probably like. 2530 years?

00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:55.000

And he said, Caroline, I am scared.

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:56.000

Yeah.

00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:02.000

I am scared. I said all of it's gonna be scary. Whether you stay in a marriage.

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:13.000

That is no longer working because over the last 25 years you guys have created patterns. And these patterns are no longer working for you in this present moment.

00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:21.000

Oh my goodness. Oh.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000

Yeah.

00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.000

So stay in it is scary. To transition and ask for change. And be vulnerable when you have chosen not to be vulnerable one or not with one another.

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:32.000

For some time now, that's just as scary because the rejection factor is right there. Right in your face, right?

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.000

Right. Thanks.

00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:37.000

To be single. And to start new is scary.

00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:43.000

It's scary to me. Oh, well, I'm not single, but I can, scary I can imagine.

00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:53.000

Scary, right? And then to be in a new relationship. To learn how to be. Transparent and vulnerable.

00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:56.000

Yeah.

00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:57.000

Yeah.

00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:01.000

Even that is scary. Either way, no matter which road you take, it's 3, no matter which road you take.

00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:13.000

You have to be real with yourself and honest with yourself. No matter which path you take. Bulnerability is required.

00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:14.000

Yeah.

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000

So yeah, it's scary. But it's in sitting with yourself and I gave my friend the best self best life exercise.

00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:21.000

Oh, okay.

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:29.000

And I said, think about it. Think about how you imagine. Your best self in your best life.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:38.000

Is it to be divorced? Or is it to be with your wife? But is it in the same manner that you guys are currently in or how do you want it shifted?

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.000

Yeah.

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:46.000

How do you want your relationship to look if you stayed married?

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000

Yeah.

00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:53.000

So in a way, it's a little bit of that. It's called a divorce discernment counseling.

00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:54.000

It's the coaching. Yeah.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:01.000

So. Yeah, kind of figure out, you know, is divorce the next step or not.

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:10.000

I'm curious if he did he get back to you about what his best life plan is to stay married.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.000

Oh. Okay. Oh my gosh, I'm dying. Ha ha.

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:17.000

We literally spoke last week, so. Yeah. So I'll circle back. You know?

00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000

Yeah. Wow.

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:25.000

You know, I've known him now for over 10 years.

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:26.000

Wow.

00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:33.000

For over 10 years I've known him. And part of my conversation with them was I was like, I've known you for a long time.

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:42.000

And the light you once used to shine is not shining as brightly.

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:43.000

So how can we get back to you shining your light? I don't think it's about the marriage.

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:47.000

Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:59.000

I think it's about the internal work. Something happened. That triggered you and now You are no longer allowing your light to shine away at once used to.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:04.000

What can we do to get you back to shining that light? Because his light was prayed. His light was glorious.

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:07.000

Yeah.

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:17.000

So. You know, when I follow up with him, it's probably gonna be less about the marriage versus.

00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:18.000

Right.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:27.000

About his heart. His mind. Where things need to shift for him because in that shifting as he starts to shine his life, it's gonna radically change his marriage.

00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:31.000

Right. That makes sense.

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:40.000

It kind of makes me think of this example in terms of let's say. I've read the story where, a dog is barking.

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:53.000

And the person was so irritated that you know his this dog was his dog was barking and you know where are their neighbors gonna think people are gonna be so upset with and that is dark as barking and he was just so bothered by this.

00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:00.000

And then the next week the dog was still barking but he wasn't upset anymore because he realized, you know, I don't have control over this.

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:07.000

It's not, it's not anything I've done in intentionally. So the dog didn't change, but within himself, his

00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:10.000

Exactly. Yeah.

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.000

So kind of the same thing. Oh. Yeah. How long do you meditate for?

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:23.000

I do a morning meditation. And It's actually a guided meditation. It's about 8 min on inside timer.

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:24.000

And literally Yeah, literally one of the The mantras is I'm willing to see this differently.

00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:33.000

Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, yes.

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:44.000

I am willing to see these situations differently. I am willing to see these and all difficult situations in my life differently.

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:45.000

Hmm. Right.

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:53.000

Just to sit with that. Because we have been so entrained to see things a certain way.

00:46:53.000 --> 00:47:04.000

And this is what what we know. This is all we know. What would it look like if we actually just .

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.000

Just a little bit.

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:06.000

So, that's what I'm going to do Just a little bit. Yeah, doesn't have to be radical.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:14.000

Just has to be one little degree. And in that degree, Again, I use the word magic a lot.

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.000

Okay.

00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:20.000

But magic happens. Change happens. Growth happens. Feeling happens.

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.000

Right.

00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:33.000

And that little shift. So much good comes out of it.

00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:34.000

Yeah.

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.000

And healing is so important and needed and necessary. Well, you know, thank you so much, Caroline.

00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:46.000

It was such a pleasure to have you on. And just kind of learn about divorces and mean, your life has to be over.

00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:55.000

And how do people get in touch with you so that you can help them walk through this process not only emotionally but also financially as well.

00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:03.000

You can find me at Foundations Divorce solutions.com. I know it's a long.

00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:11.000

You are. I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Foundation's divorce or Caroline Pack CDFA.

00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:12.000

Okay.

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:25.000

On my website you can book a consultation if you would like Or you could email me at Caroline at Foundation.

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:26.000

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:32.000

And then foundations is with an S. And solutions also has a pass. So Caroline at foundations, Divorce Solutions.

00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:34.000

Divorce. Yes.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:42.000

Dot com. And of course, you know, for those of you, this podcast is going to be featured on the WWW.

00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:52.000

Dot com website and we'll have Karen the Caroline's information up there too. Caroline, it's been a pleasure.

00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:58.000

Thank you. Okay.

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:05.000

Thank you. You know, again, I think part of that has come. If you had known me.

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:20.000

Prior to 2020. I mean, I was very type a very driven, very masculine energy and over this past year, truly working on the feminine energy.

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000

Okay.

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:30.000

And to really meet my clients in a very soft. And tender space. Because our clients are in tender spaces.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:31.000

Yeah.

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:39.000

Right? So if I can meet them where they are at and help them have hope. Their lives can actually be better.

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:45.000

That they can actually control the direction of their lives. Why not?

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.000

Well, afterwards you're gonna have to tell me what she what she did to effectuate that transfer.

00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:59.000

Because I feel like I have a lot of masculine energy in me and I'm sure my husband would like me to have more feminine energy.

00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:03.000

Until then, again, thank you so much, Caroline. Oh, just absolutely just mind blowing such a pleasure and thank you to all my listeners.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:15.000

Out there and this is Lonnie. Achiona from the Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Acquona Law Podcast.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:24.000

We're in we talk about everything and anything that intersects with the areas of family. Law and divorce until then we'll see you next time.

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.000

Thank you, Lonnie.

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:30.000

Okay