The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Susan Guthrie

 In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Lani chats with former family law litigator Susan Guthrie, a nationally recognized mediator/divorce lawyer. She's teamed up with mediation legend Woody Mosten to create the Mosten Guthrie Academy. Susan and Lani believe in finding a way to settle things without going to court. They discuss how a mediated agreement is much better for families in the long run. 

Transcript

 Guthrie Podcast Transcript

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Alright. Or I'm gonna hit record.

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4, 3, 2, one. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast.

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We're in, we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law divorce.

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I am family law, collaborative divorce attorney and mediator, Ululani, Lani Akiona, and with me today on our podcast we have a very special guest and I am so excited.

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To have with me Susan Guthrie. Welcome, Susan.

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Thank you, Lani. I'm so excited to be here with you today.

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Okay, so before we get started, I've got to tell you all Susan has been it practicing.

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She is one of the preeminent mediators here. In our area, family and law divorce.

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She has been doing family law, divorce, and mediation for over 30 years. Specifically, she's been focusing on mediation and mediation training.

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And also this includes collaborative law training as well for the past 10 years. She is a vice chair of the American Bar Association's Dispute resolution section and Susan, you're going to be the chairperson next year of the section.

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Okay.

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Yes, yes, starting in 2024, late 2024.

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And this is how I got to know Susan. She is the co-founder of the Mostin Boston Guthrie Academy with Forrest Woody Boston and Forrest is a force up there with Susan one of the premier mediators in the country and I got to know Susan Susan because I took their 40 h mediation training and it was fabulous and it was wonderful and it was mind-blowing and again thank you so much Susan so excited to

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have you here in the podcast.

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Oh, thank you. And I love that you call it mind blowing. That's fabulous.

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That's exactly what we want. So thank you.

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It was life changing. It was transformative. And you know, I'm interested in hearing your story and your journey because I know you were practicing family law at a top law firm in California for 20 years, right?

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Okay. Sorry.

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Yeah, actually it was in Connecticut. I might the first, yep, first 26 years of my practice I was in Connecticut and New York.

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Wow.

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And practice solely in the area of family law, but very traditional family law, you know, mostly along that litigation framework.

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Because it's all I knew.

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Right. And so what propelled you on your journey to take off the boxing glove, so to speak, in litigation and then transform into mediation.

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Okay.

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Oh wow, wow.

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Yeah, well, and I love that you say the boxing gloves, cause I think it's a, there's a California firm actually that their motto is something like when the rings come off the gloves go on or something like that and that actually I only mentioned that because it really is a large part of why my journey shifted so drastically.

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I would have shifted from litigation earlier than 1210 or 12 years ago if I had known that it existed and how helpful it can really be to families who are restructuring through the divorce process.

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Right.

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Okay.

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But unfortunately, being as old as I am, having graduated from law school, 33 years ago, you know, mediation wasn't even a course that was offered.

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Bye.

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Dispute resolution, alternative resolution, as some call it, was not really a course of study nor really something that was was much discussed.

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So when I got out of law school, you really kind of learn when you join a firm, you learn from your elders, so to speak, your mentors, the older attorneys, the more experienced attorneys in the firm.

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Okay.

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And so I learned a very traditional, but effective way of approaching divorce through litigation. And I turned out to be good at it.

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Okay.

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There are aspects of litigation that go well with my personality and my skill sets. But what I noticed and it didn't take that long.

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Right.

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Is that unfortunately the outcome for the clients and I mean the entire family not just my particular client. The mom, the dad, the husband, the wife, but the whole family.

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Often they would come into the process already in a difficult place and they'd end up at the end in an even more difficult place.

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Emotionally, financially, etc. So it was really when I found mediation, one of my colleagues sort of steered me in the direction that it kind of felt like you just said about your mediation training.

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I felt the same way when I went to my first. I felt like Oh my god, there is a better way.

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Right, right, a better way because one thing about litigation and it just what I hate about litigation is that I feel like sometimes I'm not leaving.

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I feel like sometimes you're leaving people off in a worse place.

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Right.

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Yeah, most often that's how you felt. You got them out. You got the divorce done for them.

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Yes. Right.

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Right.

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But the process itself, because it is built upon an adversarial process really, you know, party a versus party.

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It's set up like it's a, you know, a car accident lawsuit, right? You rear-ended me, so you owe me.

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Bye. Hi.

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That's how it's set up to restructure families. And it's not really the same thing.

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Right, it's a very different thing. And so the the litigation system is actually the worst possible way to try and help people.

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Great.

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Find a different way to go forward, right? To find and forge new pathways. And so when we get them into that process of you know, fighting for the last penny or the last minute of their children's time or whatever it is, we're actually starting a conflict cycle that will continue long after the divorce.

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True, still true. And I think and it's interesting because first of all, if you folks, have to get on it.

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The occupant law YouTube channel and watches video because I cannot believe Susan you graduated lost with 30 years ago.

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33.

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Yeah.

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She, she is stunning folks, she is stunning. But, but yeah, but I'm when I graduated from law school back in the was I don't know 2,000 or something there was like one there was one ADR class and it was almost like an afterthought.

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Oh, yeah.

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It was just like, I guess I think it was a requirement or something, but it wasn't.

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Right.

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Or it was an easy filler class for your final semester of law school. So you could really be studying for the bar.

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Right? Yeah, yeah. And that's

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Right. Right. It's kinda like what's, what's the point? I'm never gonna use this.

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And that's or people take it thinking. Well, very often the court will order us to mandatory mediation before we can get trial dates or hearing dates.

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So I'll take a mediation course so I understand what the process is, but you know, again, it's not something that I'm ever going to do nor see the value of for my clients as an entire process, right?

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They see it as a little maybe. Road bump along the way to getting the case finalized and in fact It's it can be so much more.

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It can be the entire journey. And should be if if at all possible.

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Agreed. Right, and so for people out there who don't really understand the benefits of mediation, would you mind explaining to them?

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For example, like I'm, you know, I'm, let's just say I'm a mother of 2.

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I'm in my mid 50. I want to divorce my husband. I've been married for 20 years.

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And why should I consider mediation instead of just going according just getting as much as I can from him?

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I get you what I'm entitled to. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

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Yeah, or getting what I'm entitled to, right? You know, what? Yeah. That's the one that we hear so often as divorced.

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Right.

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I just want what I'm entitled to or the other one is I just want what's fair, to 2 phrases that don't work in the real world, right?

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Yeah, right.

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And just to briefly explain, no one knows what fair is. You know, you and your spouse will think fair is a very different thing very often.

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And what you're entitled to, I always tell people if it were that easy. We wouldn't need lawyers and we wouldn't need judges.

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Okay.

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If the law was that black and white about what you're entitled to. There'd be nothing to discuss.

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It would just be cut and dried. And in fact, we know it's very, it's very, it's very legit and it's very adversarial and it's very open to interpretation.

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But and that's why the mediation process is really that better way to go through this. And there's a variety of reasons and I will say at the outset.

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For each couple that I'll say comes to the table, we'll call it, right? They're coming to the mediation table.

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Very often it's different benefits of the process that might be what incentivizes them to come to that table.

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You there are so many benefits to the process but It doesn't have to be the same benefit that's relevant to each one of you.

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What's important is that you both choose the process and come to the table to find that resolution. And that's one of the first benefits, right?

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Voluntary.

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It's voluntary. The 2 of you are choosing to sit down in some fashion together. With your mediator and work through all of the issues of your divorce.

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That's the the most common way that we see people doing it. Start to finish divorce mediation.

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Okay.

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And in doing that, you are taking out the coercive nature of litigation. You're bypassing being told what you're going to do and being forced to do anything because as as appealing as it may sound that your spouse might be forced to do things, you also get caught up in that forcing, right?

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The the compelling the coercion of the court system is built upon telling you what you have to do in punishing if you don't do it.

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That is. Right? Yeah.

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Oh gosh, so true. So true. And if I don't know if people are like, I hate it when people tell me what to do.

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Right.

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Oh, no, he likes it, right? And that's actually something we know about mediated agreements versus litigation judgments or even litigation agreements.

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We know that most people who litigate still end up coming to an agreement. But when you feel pushed into an agreement, like you had no choice but to accept it versus Yeah, I don't love everything about my mediated agreement, but I picked and chose what I could and could not live with.

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Siltra. Yeah.

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There's a huge difference in the viability of those agreements as you go forward with your lives after the divorce.

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Yeah.

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Because that's what people need to remember. Your divorce is this finite period of time in your life, right?

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It does. Okay.

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It feels like forever. You and I know that. Yeah, but it will end. And then you have your whole lives to live after that and you don't want to be running back to court or running back to renegotiate or deal with, you know, someone not doing what the agreement said and when people feel coerced into agreements or told what to do like you just said.

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We know they don't do it. They'll fight doing it. Because it's the point, right?

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Right?

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And And so a mediated agreement is much more durable for families.

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Wow, did I love that right there. A mediated agreement is much more durable for families.

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That is so powerful. And I also kind of, I try to tell people too in terms of like doing mediation or even collaborative divorce.

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Do you want to be in control of what happens? Or do you want someone else to be in control?

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And I'm a control free. Like, I wanna be in control. Yeah. Yeah.

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Welcome to being a lawyer, right? I think there's a reason some of us are drawn to this profession. But you're so right.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I love how you say that, right? And it's funny, I had one of the people who was taking one of our trainings once said that a judge said to her client once so here imagine being in a courtroom 2 attorneys sitting at the table and each one of them has their client there and the judge asks the 2 clients to stand up.

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So I think it was a mom and a dad. And the judge turns to mom and says, do you love your children, ma'am?

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And of course, Mom says, of course your honor, I love them more than anything. And he turns to dad and says, how about you, sir, do you love your children?

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And dad says, I love my children more than anything. And the judge looked at the 2 of them and said, Well, you know what?

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I don't. So why are you asking me to make decisions about your children?

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I love that. I love that.

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Right? I've used it. That's why I'm tough, right? They're so powerful.

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Oh my gosh.

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I don't think anything drives it home. Better than that little dialogue. I can you imagine you could probably could have heard a PIN drop in that courtroom

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Yeah. Well, I love that. A judge saying, I don't love your children, so why are you asking me to make decisions about them?

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For the rest of their lives. Until they're 18.

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Yeah. Right. Yeah, well. We say that, right?

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Okay.

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As the step mother of a bunch of 26 year olds, I can tell you, you're still, you're still on the walk.

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But yeah, it's right. That's, I think that's so, that so sums it up.

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Right.

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For parents in a way, can you imagine those 2 parents standing there in that courtroom? It's kind of shocked to even be asked that of course I love my children, right?

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Yeah.

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Why are you even questioning me on that? And then the judge turning it around on them in a really, impactful way.

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I respect that in that judge because If you want 2 people to go back out in the hallway and work it out, figure out how to make this work and make decisions together about their kids.

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Oh. Thank you.

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That's a pretty powerful way to do it.

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Oh my gosh, I just got goosebumps. Cause I was imagining myself being that parent and just like hearing that and then going on the courtroom like I guess I got to figure this out because.

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Oh my goodness, yeah, that's what's about.

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Yeah. Right. Well, a little tip in a mediation, try it out in a mediation when the 2 people don't want to work it out.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Let me just, would it be helpful to hear a little story that a colleague told me about being in court one day and drop that into the conversation.

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Oh my. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's powerful. So let's, why don't you take us through like, okay, what, what do you do in your mediation?

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Like, what does your mediation start with? Again, this is for everybody who's, like I'm a client.

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I'm a consumer. I'm coming to you. It's for mediation. What are the steps that you're going to be taking me through?

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Yeah, and it's it stays. Pretty much the same. As we go along, but I do, you know, sort of get curate each mediation.

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Process to that couple. But, you know, usually I would start out meeting with each of them separately.

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So we'd have an orientation meeting where they're both together just to kind of get an understanding of how the process will unfold.

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I'm always surprised by how many people I speak to have been through a mediation process where they didn't really understand until it was happening.

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Okay.

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How the whole thing was would unfold, how the process went. So I always find it's really helpful in the beginning to just sort of sit down together.

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Either the 2 parties with me or the 2 parties and their attorneys and and me and just talk about you know how this is going to unfold because you and I both know right the divorce process in general No matter what process you follow is going to go through the information gathering phase.

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Right.

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The identifying issues phase, the negotiating those issues and generating options, the settlement phase and you know the conclusion wrapping it up.

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So it's all going to move along in same way. It's just how we'll do that in the mediation process.

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Right.

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So once we've had that orientation, I'll usually meet with each of them separately so we get a chance to know each other and people, you know, here's something that I also think is really one of the benefits of mediation is people feel very powerless.

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Yes. Yes.

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During the divorce process. Especially if you're in front of that judge who's making decisions for you, right?

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Yeah.

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That is the definition of no power, someone telling you what to do. But even in mediation or any process, you just.

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There's that loss of feeling of your own personal power. And I want people to know that they're being heard.

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Yes.

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That I'm there and one of my critical roles for both of them. Is to hear what they have to say to hear their concerns, to hear what's important to them, to hear what, you know, what matters and where they want to go.

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Right.

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And so a lot of that initial separate meeting with each of them will be that. And then we'll start meeting together almost always.

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I try to meet with them together and this is so that they get an additional benefit from the process. Of learning.

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You know, most people who hit our doorstep have gotten to a point where their communication is degraded, I'll say, right?

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Right.

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It's gone down to a point where it's either, you know, nasty little comments or sticky notes.

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Okay.

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That they leave behind on the kitchen counter or, but it's not usually optimal communication. And we know that to have a successful life post divorce, especially if you're co-parents.

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Learning new ways to communicate. In this new reality, this new life that you're going to have, this new future is really critical.

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Exactly.

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So that's another thing that comes out of this process. Right? They'll sit in this.

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Mediation session talking about very difficult topics, right? We're talking about your money in your kids.

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Yes.

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But doing it with your mediator who's a skilled facilitator and helping you have.

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Right.

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A better conversation, a better communication so that they're learning new ways and we do that with our skill set in a variety of different ways.

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Huh.

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But the idea is to identify all of the issues that the parties need to discuss. You know, you and I both, it all generally is around money or your kids.

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And then really dive into those dig underneath to, you know, what will work best for this family?

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Right.

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But they think.

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What do they think? Not what I think, what do they think works best for their family until we've resolved those issues and and you know the Really fabulous part about mediation is that the success rate in divorce mediation is upwards of 90% for couples being able to resolve their divorce.

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Oh my gosh! Amazing. Amazing.

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100% within the process.

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And I think for people just to kind of understand, you know, we'll break it down. When, when Susan's talking about identifying the issues, we, you start off big picture rate, like you start off parenting, you, you know, the house retirement accounts.

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So those are normally the 3 big issues and from there you go ahead and you tackle each issue separately and folks know everything does not get done and one day you're not doing this marathon 15 h mediation session.

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Heaven forbid. Yeah. Yeah.

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People do them it's you really don't want to do that right going back to that feeling coerced into making decisions, right?

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Or just exhausted. Yeah, making decisions out of exhaustion.

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Oh my god. Yeah. Ex exhausted, exhausted, that's what it is. I did a 15 h ADR and I was just a in a way I was frustrated at the the professional because I'm like we cannot function after 15 h.

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Okay. Great!

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But I don't care how many breaks you take and how many, you know, plates of cookies you bring in for everyone.

00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:08.000

Yeah, I'm, I'm not a fan. I, I generally will work in 2 h increments with people.

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:09.000

And I think that's important.

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:16.000

Right. Yeah, and I think that's especially to when you're tackling, I mean, when you're tackling issues about parenting.

00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:24.000

Good Lord, you're not gonna get even, look, it's to me best case scenario you're done in 2 h, but most likely not because there's just so much to impact.

00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:30.000

And I want to transition next. I think this is a good time to pick it up in, you know, holding the space.

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:40.000

Can you tell people out there, let let the people know, what does that mean in terms of the media when you're holding the space for a client?

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:49.000

Well, I would call that sort of creating that space where everyone feels that they fully have that opportunity to be heard.

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:50.000

Hmm, yeah.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:09.000

That all of those concerns that they have, all of the issues that have brought them to this place and all those I mean very honestly what I think we see so often for people it may manifest in different ways but the number one emotion we see for people It's here when they are with me.

00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.000

Fear. Yeah.

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:15.000

Right. And anger is, you know, I've heard it, it phrased as the other side of fear.

00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.000

Okay.

00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:21.000

Our fears, like you're right, it's a protective aspect that comes out of us for some people.

00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.000

Yeah.

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:31.000

When we're feeling very fearful for other people, it manifests more as sadness or depression or those and we see a lot of that in the room.

00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:48.000

And so when we're holding a space for someone or hopefully a couple if they're working together in that.

00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.000

Okay.

00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:50.000

It's to create that. Sense that what you bring into this room, whether I, you know, I do most of my mediation, all of my mediations actually online, but I consider this screen for those who are watching YouTube, right?

00:21:50.000 --> 00:22:14.000

This screen is our room. This is where we are holding our space and if we're in a conference room or somebody's you know office space then that's the the space but really where they feel that they've come in and we have they have gotten the proper amount of time support and information so that when they do make decisions.

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:25.000

They've had adequate time to discuss it. Think it through and make those decisions. We call them legally, we call them informed consent decisions, right?

00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:35.000

Like you're making decisions from a place of I understand what all the options are. I've thought them through as they affect both me and my family.

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:46.000

And these are the options that we choose to gather. This is what I can live with and this is what I cannot live with.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.000

Yeah.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:52.000

And that is it will sound odd to listeners but that is the magic. Because there's a very big difference from making decisions out of that place of fear.

00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:01.000

Or that place of anger or that place of, you know, all or being forced into making a decision or being told what you're going to do.

00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:08.000

And truly feeling like, okay, we've really looked at this from as many ways as we possibly could.

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:20.000

I'm comfortable with that. And I've I've thought it through with enough information. And support to make good decisions.

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000

Okay.

00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:22.000

I won't love them all. But I can live with them all.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:30.000

Yeah, and I think that's important for people. I think there's a saying that acceptance doesn't mean you have to like something.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.000

Very true. Wish it were, but no.

00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:43.000

Okay. Yeah, you don't have to love the decision, but you know, can you live with it?

00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:44.000

Yeah.

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:51.000

Well, and there's so that's actually a very powerful concept to grasp when you are going through this process because when you get caught up in me everything has to be my way and perfect.

00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.000

Per fair. Yeah.

00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:08.000

That's because it's right. If I don't get that, everything's going to be awful or it's a catastrophe or if I don't get that they get it and that's the worst thing that I ever happened and that actually keeps you locked in the conflict cycle.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.000

Okay.

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:18.000

It will keep you in that divorce process. It will keep you the phrase I've always used with clients is there is a dollar sign attached to your piece of mind and only you know what number is on that price tag.

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:31.000

And that is that point in time where you are making a decision that you don't love. But you can live with it.

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:42.000

And that's, that's the price tag. Whatever it was that you, you either paid or accepted or offered that was that little bit more or a little bit less than what you wanted.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.000

Or was optimal, that's where settlement happens. But it's also where you get your peace of mind and your freedom back and your future.

00:24:50.000 --> 00:25:02.000

And speaking in terms of. Transfer the law speaking in terms of the transformative power of mediation.

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:16.000

I mean, don't you see it at the beginning when you meet with a couple they're just stress their faces are kind of scrunched up maybe they're sitting with their arms crossed and at the end You almost can kind of see their faces relaxed.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:22.000

The body language is relaxed. Piece in some sort of way.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:49.000

Yeah, peace is the perfect word for it and a new relationship has been. I hesitate to use the word relationship, but a new partnership has been formed at the end of a mediation so often and that is really the beauty of that process and we do see that transformation throughout.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:53.000

Yeah.

00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:54.000

Thanks.

00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:04.000

Again, it doesn't when you have those marathon, 1215 h mediations, you don't really see this transformation because the the transformation is just from well rested maybe nervous people too exhausted and and you know people who have made decisions but when people have really worked through all of this process and get to the end, have learned to communicate better, have learned to respect.

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:19.000

The Maybe not love the decisions of the other party but respect the concessions they've made and that you have made and that you've worked together to really you know do what's best for your children optimize things financially you have crafted a new partnership, a new way of going forward.

00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:32.000

And I've seen, you know, I've seen people come into mediation. Everybody thinks it's a very kumbaya, you know.

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:38.000

And we're gonna start with a gong sounding and all that, which I've done, but.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:39.000

Yeah, yeah, when I was in California, I did practice in California. We had a whole mindfulness approach.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:46.000

Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.000

Oh.

00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:54.000

That people loved and I really enjoyed it. But Usually people come into the process and at the very least they're nervous and hesitant because they don't know what to accept.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:55.000

Alright.

00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:10.000

I've seen that transform into people who who walk hand in hand or arm in arm out of the mediation after the last one I've seen people, you know, hug each other crying after signing their paperwork.

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.000

Yeah.

00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:21.000

But not in a in a in a there's a sadness that something has ended There's also a respect for what they share together and for the actual There's a respect for each other having gone through that process and prioritized their family and their relationship and their future, whatever that looks like going forward together.

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:30.000

And that's very, very powerful.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:40.000

You know, typically how long does how long I guess how many mediation sessions kind of person expect anywhere from.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.000

Oh gosh, I would say if kids are involved, maybe 5, 8, depending.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:53.000

Yeah, that's exactly what I would say. And you know, you always have to throw it because that's the number one question I think we get in a in a consultation, right?

00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.000

How long is this going to take and how much is it going to cost me? Which are very good questions.

00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:00.000

Right. Right. Right.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.000

Yeah.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:05.000

And if we could answer those, we'd be magic. Because the typical lawyer answer is it depends.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:06.000

Exactly.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:15.000

But Yes, I would say in general if there it's between 2 and 5 sessions if there are very complicated issues and can go upwards 9, 10 sessions.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Yeah.

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:39.000

But I've seen very complicated cases go very quickly because people are ready to move forward. They've done a lot of the work and the thought beforehand they know what it is they want to achieve.

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.000

Right.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:47.000

They're well supported and I've seen other people with relatively simple issues but a lot of emotional context around it take much longer and and that's the other beauty of mediation is really it's a very customizable process.

00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:48.000

Alright.

00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:59.000

And that's in a variety of ways. The number of sessions you have, the people who are present, bringing in outside support professionals, financials, parenting advisors, therapists, coaches.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:05.000

I mean, we can bring in all different kinds of people if that's helpful to the parties going through the process.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.000

Okay.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:19.000

And so it's very, very customizable as you go along to make sure that people are getting what they need so that when they make those decisions they're actually making them from a place of strength and information.

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:27.000

And do you see typically maybe a lot of support people in terms of family members in the mediation?

00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:28.000

Okay.

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:39.000

You know, that's more rare and for good reason. I would say it's not something I generally encourage because I see a difference between support professionals.

00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.000

Yeah.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:48.000

And support people and I say this with all due deference to our friends and family who love us and want the best for us.

00:29:48.000 --> 00:30:07.000

But if they are. Not trained divorce professionals in whatever capacity they're being brought in very often their support is to support us where we are emotionally.

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:08.000

Okay.

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:11.000

And if our emotions are not in a great place, which very often they are not. They will often support that we're feeling very angry.

00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:16.000

Well, you should feel angry. He's a bastard. He did this. He did that.

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.000

You're feeling very sad. Well, you should be feeling very sad. Why wouldn't you?

00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.000

Okay. Right. Alright.

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:31.000

She left you for the pool boy or whatever these things might be. And they mean well. And they love you, but it's not helping your process.

00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:38.000

So I'm more supportive, one of my favorite things to suggest to clients is their support path, their support animal.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:44.000

You're support animal. Oh.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:49.000

Okay.

00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:50.000

Yeah.

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:56.000

Whether that's a formal, you know. Pat, who's been certified as a support in a service animal, but even just, having your dog or your cat there with you can be, you know, there's just a calming to our neurobiological system of patting our pets and having them.

00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.000

Yeah.

00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000

It's been one of the biggest pluses, you know, I went online for my mediations about 8 years ago.

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:14.000

And one of the big bonuses I often saw was that now my clients were at home. Going through their mediations and almost always their dog or cat was there with them.

00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:21.000

And so it brought down that emotional level for them. And so that's more the support that I see.

00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:26.000

So for those, I'm gonna disappear from the screen for 1 s. For those of you who are watching you too.

00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:33.000

I think we have a guest star. Yay!

00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.000

Hi, Chewy.

00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:38.000

This is Chubaka. He is my cockapoo. He is, 12 years old and this is my support.

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:41.000

Well, mine's right Teddy, who's 11, you almost 11 years old is Myhavanese is sleeping under the chair right there.

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:55.000

Yeah.

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:56.000

Huh.

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:09.000

And it's funny because when I had my law firm in Connecticut, I had, I had just opened my own firm and I was like, well, heck, I, if I want to take my dog to work, I'm gonna take my dog to work so at the time I had this adorable little yorky his name was sailor and I would take him to the office with me

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:10.000

Yeah.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:20.000

every day and I had glass doors on my conference room and they went all the way down to the floor so we'd be in the conference room and talking with the client and the client would look over and go, oh, and I'd look behind me and there'd be sailor in the window staring in at us.

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:21.000

Yes.

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:32.000

And Literally so more often than not he ended up sitting in my clients laps during depositions during during my practice.

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.000

Yeah.

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:35.000

I don't have clients stop by, they'd bring them little toys and treats. I had some clients who came just to see him.

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000

Oh no, I'm not here to bother you, Susan. I just want to see Sailor.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.000

Yeah.

00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:50.000

I was passing by. So the power of, and that's another aspect, right? That Eat a mediation if that's what someone needs that kind of support.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.000

Then that's the arrangement that we can make as long as it's agreeable to the parties.

00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:09.000

And if you really do want your best friend there or your mother or, you know, your next door neighbor, we can talk about that and see if that's, you know, going to be acceptable and helpful to the process because there's a variety of different ways you can do that.

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:24.000

Maybe they don't need to be sitting right in the room, but they're available by telephone or they're available in another room or on zoom even if you're in person so that you can go talk to them and get the support in those moments that you feel you need it.

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:27.000

So there's a lot of different ways to manage these things.

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:38.000

Right. And would you say that in terms of your in terms of the mediations, would you say that you're doing it more with people who don't have attorneys or people who do have attorneys in the rooms.

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:52.000

You know, for a long time when I first made the transition from being a litigation to a mediator, I would say it was much more often people who had attorneys but who had attorneys were not attending the mediation sessions.

00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:57.000

Okay.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.000

Right.

00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:02.000

They were sort of a support system in the background to give that legal advice and and understanding as we might clients went through the process.

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:08.000

As my practice has expanded and grown, now it's probably more 50 50 because it's attorneys who are bringing their complex cases to me.

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:19.000

So right now I do mostly high net worth and ultra high net worth families because they're very complex.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000

Right.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:31.000

You know, they, there's a lot of financial considerations that extend beyond the family and go beyond what you might see in I guess a more average financial case.

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.000

Be on the you on the 4 one K Okay. Yeah.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:37.000

And so, yeah. Yes, exactly right. You know people with foundations and you know family trust that extend on for generations and things like that.

00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:57.000

Which means not only do you have attorneys involved, you have multiple attorneys involved, right? The trust has attorneys and you you as a fiduciary, respond responsibly, you also need other.

00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.000

Hi.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.000

Professionals involved very often in those sorts of things. So you may have, I call it more a collaborative divorce style mediation in those cases.

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:04.000

Okay.

00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:10.000

So because I know you do collaborative law as well. It's like a big collaborative divorce with the meeting or sort of steering everything or mediators.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:17.000

Yeah. Yeah. It's.

00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:18.000

Oh wow. Sounds exciting. Okay.

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:38.000

Very often in those really big ones will have more than one mediator. Yeah. It is and honestly, you know, yes, those families are very blessed to be able to afford that many professionals, but At the same time, they're also very conscious because, you know, if they own companies or they have also very conscious because if they own companies or they have foundations that they have foundations that do a lot of terrible

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000

Okay.

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:44.000

work. Many, many people's lives could be impacted by negative things happening to those businesses or those foundations or those charitable contributions and all that.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:36:02.000

And we know that negative financial things happen very often in divorce. So very often it's really an effort.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:03.000

Right.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.000

To minimize that ripple effect of the divorce causing negative consequences by having it in this closely held but well supported.

00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:12.000

Group cadre of professionals, I would say.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:13.000

Fabulous. Yes, exactly.

00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:18.000

Or container collaborative voice we use at the container professionals. Yeah. So I, you know, you've been doing this for a long time.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.000

Yeah.

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:26.000

What is or horror story and about attorney that you have or attorneys of mediation that you're just like,

00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:35.000

You guys are making me pull my hair out! Yeah.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:43.000

Hmm. Okay.

00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:48.000

Okay.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.000

Yeah.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.000

Do I only get to choose one? No, I. You know, and this is this I will throw myself under this bus so that you know people understand because when I transitioned from being a litigation which is a very Very set mindset of advocating vociferously for your clients position.

00:36:51.000 --> 00:37:01.000

Understand, you know, that when we are advocating for someone, when we represent a client, our job is to take the facts of their case.

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:10.000

And take the law and smush those 2 things together in a rational way that gets my client as much of what they want as possible, right?

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:22.000

That's, that's how I would break down being a litigation. And so it's very much based on knowing your facts, knowing your law and arguing, like for those who can't see this, I'm using my air quotes, but arguing.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.000

Okay.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:33.000

For an outcome that benefits your clients. And so that is not a mediative. Outcome. That's not what we're looking for in mediation.

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:41.000

In mediation, what we're looking for is an outcome that actually checks as many of the boxes for both people as possible.

00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:54.000

So it goes from that 0 some negotiation to a Third possibility best of all worlds. Negotiation and they're very different.

00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.000

Okay.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:03.000

But what happens is attorneys like me when I first would go to mediations as an attorney. Who still think that.

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000

Right.

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000

The mediator in some way is a judge and they're arguing for their clients perspective. On the facts and the law.

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:15.000

And the reality of mediation is yes, the facts in law matter. As much as the parties want them to matter.

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:23.000

But if the parties think something else is gonna work better for them? They're 100% free to do that unless it's illegal.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:32.000

Right. And which is, you know, that doesn't come up very often. I don't get too many people wanting to do something illegal in in a way that's going to help their family.

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:39.000

It doesn't usually help their family to be do something. So The the number one thing that that attorneys do that's not helpful.

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:44.000

Okay.

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.000

Yeah.

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:52.000

Is that they they don't prepare their client for that open mindedness to finding the third way and they themselves present a barrier to finding the third way by arguing.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:56.000

Very much along the lines of, but this is what my client is entitled to. This is what my client, what the losses my client should get and not understanding that.

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:06.000

There's more to this than just. The law. There's more to this than just the facts.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:09.000

Alright.

00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000

There's a family that needs to move forward. Yeah.

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.000

Yes.

00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:36.000

There's family. Right. And that's what I think too in terms of just mediation, even clever divorce, just because something Like ultimately it's not my divorce as your attorney it is not my divorce it is my clients and my client ultimately has control and even though my client may be entitled to something by law, if my client feels in the interest of resolving things.

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:41.000

They can give it up, then I feel like I as attorney have to respect that. Cause I don't have to love with it.

00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.000

And it's very. Right, you're gonna go home to your life and family at the end of the day.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:50.000

They do! Yeah! Yeah.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:51.000

Yeah.

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:58.000

And so if it were going to affect that, But it's hard for people to understand because we go, you know, we go to law school for 3 years and people think what we're learning is the law.

00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:01.000

And yes, they throw some law at us in 3 years. But if you think you can learn all the law in the world in 3 years.

00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:11.000

You're crazy, right? We don't what we learned to do. In those 3 years is to think like lawyers.

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:12.000

Right, right.

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:25.000

And once that thinking is turned on, It's really hard to turn it off. And for the most part, that's who's at fault, who should pay for this, who, you know, how do I use the facts and the law to get to argue my clients position to get my what my client wants.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.000

To get what I want. Right.

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:34.000

And right it's very much That's the job and and we're trained to be good at it.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:41.000

Yeah.

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:42.000

Yeah.

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:46.000

And you know, those that are good litigators are really good at it. But it is not what a family needs.

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:56.000

Or even a couple. I keep saying family, but sometimes it's it's a couple without children or their children are grown or you know different things but they want to move forward in a different way than then.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:04.000

Feeling that they coerced each other into a conclusion. And, and attorneys have a hard time backing out of that mindset.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.000

It was, you know, in collaborative law, we call it the mindset shift. It's the same thing in mediation.

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:09.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:19.000

To successfully practice. I actually think collaborative attorneys have a little bit harder time than mediators because mediators we go from being an advocate.

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:25.000

To being a neutral, meaning I have no investment in either side. I'm just here to support the 2 of you.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:26.000

Right.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:32.000

The collaborative attorney kind of has to skirt the line of, I'm here to support you and give you advice.

00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:42.000

But to also help you be open minded to decisions that that might go, you know, might not be exactly what the law called for and it's a little bit hard more nebulous line.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.000

Yeah. Right.

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:53.000

Really skilled collaborative attorneys are very good at it. But it's a hard, that's a hard line to to learn to balance on.

00:41:53.000 --> 00:42:11.000

It's a hard line, it's also it's really hard because as a litigation you're so used like I'm so used okay this is a plan this is what we're gonna do and as a collaborative attorney, you got to take the step back and be like, well, you know, here's a suggest here's what you could possibly do but ultimately what do you want to do?

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:15.000

It's your decision. What do you think is best? I can't tell you what to do.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.000

I have to give it back control as a collaborative attorney.

00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:20.000

Yeah.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.000

Yeah, very much give up the control, but still make the client feel supported to a point where they can make those decisions, right?

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:31.000

Right.

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000

Yeah.

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:43.000

Because if you say, but it's up to you what do you want to do if they don't feel like they have enough information they're like I don't know tell me what to do and and you get stuck in that which is also a really difficult place for people they get stuck in the inability to make decisions and that's very frustrating.

00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:44.000

Right.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:55.000

It's frustrating to the person who doesn't feel that they can make the decision and it's really frustrating to the person who's like putting out suggestions and the other person won't isn't able to say yes or no to any of them.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:56.000

Okay.

00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:05.000

So there's a lot of a lot of work that goes into this. And I remember thinking that mediation was going to be the kinder, gentler, simpler way to get divorce and it's none of those things.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.000

Huh. Of those

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:20.000

It's harder in some ways. It takes more work. It's very complicated. It's also infinitely better and more successful for the people who go through the process.

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:31.000

You know, I just, I want to share, sir, because I just did a collaborative divorce recently and, all my cases have been really litigation and oh my gosh, it's collaborative divorce that I did myself and the other attorney.

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:40.000

I have not gotten a divorce finalized that quickly and that cheaply in years. And I was like, well, the power of collaborative divorce.

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:41.000

Right.

00:43:41.000 --> 00:44:01.000

It was it was just amazing and you know the agreement that these people crafted and they were older their retirement age so there was no kids involved or things like that and the agreement that they crafted it was something like It was not like what you would have gotten and I did air quotes too, not what you would have gone in air quotes per the law.

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:14.000

A judge would not have ordered this. But it was something they came up with and they were happy about it.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.000

Yeah.

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.000

And I was just. Amazed and so excited for them just how quickly they got it done. I was just mind blown cause I have some divorce cases for you and it's going on like you're 3.

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:23.000

Because people are stuck.

00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:24.000

Yeah.

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:31.000

Okay. Well, they're stuck in that conflict cycle, right? You know, the thing people don't understand is you argue over The dining room table.

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:38.000

Right, you argue, you argue. No, my mother, blah, blah, blah, you go back and forth and then you finally result fine.

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.000

Yeah.

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000

Yeah.

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:51.000

One on the conflict cycle to go talk about the next thing, but you're not because you've now ramped up animosity fighting over that table and whatever you said to each other about that.

00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:54.000

Yeah. Okay.

00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:58.000

And so that it's a spiral but it's an upward spiral. It's not a down, yeah, or a downward spiral into more conflict.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:01.000

And up. Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:07.000

And so that's where people, that's why divorces drag on, you know, they really people get caught just.

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:11.000

Same conflicts, different topics. Over and over.

00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:22.000

Reinventing that litigation or that conflict will. That's what it is. And speaking of that too, I just didn't.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:25.000

And it was just it was just funny because I'm just kinda thinking like this attorney in a way I can just see it like she's like very conflict.

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:35.000

Driven, you know, typical litigation attorney and in my head I'm like, good grief, you've got to get some collaborator training something.

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:41.000

But it was just this one little thing where it had to do with. But how to do with bank statements.

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:50.000

And we had identify it by a different account number and they had identified it by a different account number. And so I'm emailing trying to get some clarification.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:46:01.000

And I guess I, and I understood and I didn't respond fast enough to an email and the, got back was show me the 2 different bank statements.

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:02.000

Because I was just like. And I said, no, and I had an email back saying, I got it.

00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:06.000

Yeah. Right.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:13.000

I got it. I understand we're talking about the same account. But just that one response like show me the 2 different bank statements.

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:18.000

I'm like, give me a second here.

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:19.000

Give me a second.

00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000

Well, but and what was that? Give me the facts. Give me the facts so that I can then argue with you.

00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:32.000

On what those facts are very lawyer minded response, right? You know, the go to the facts, go to the law.

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:38.000

Well, the rules say you had to give me this or right that's That is what we're trained to do.

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:39.000

Right.

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:54.000

Unfortunately, that training is almost that those who go into family law should probably get a different kind of training than the regular litigation training that most attorneys get because we end up to be really good family law practitioners.

00:46:54.000 --> 00:47:18.000

I think we have to unlearn a lot or learn how to. Turn off a lot of that lawyer think that we learn over that period of time and unfortunately when we get out of school and we go into a litigation firm or a litigation situation it it only cements that now I've you know I spent the first 20 years of my practice going into courtrooms and taking the law in the facts and arguing for my client's

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:20.000

Right.

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:35.000

position. Very hard to turn that off after, you know, after that many years. Even though I now sit in a mediation room.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:36.000

Yeah.

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:46.000

So it's it's a it's something that I tell people one little tip for your for people who are listening or watching is if you are in the mediation process for your for people who are listening or watching is if you are in the mediation process the best of you are in the mediation process the best attorneys to have, the best attorneys to have supporting you, the best attorneys to have supporting you are collaboratively trained, the best attorneys to have supporting you are collaboratively trained attorneys and or

00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:55.000

mediation trained attorneys and or mediation trained attorneys and or mediation trained attorneys, attorneys who have that background and or mediation trained attorneys and or mediation trained attorneys, attorneys who have that background and understanding because they are much more able.

00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:03.000

To do the mindset shift that you as a client need. To be able to move through their process without getting caught in that conflict cycle.

00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:23.000

Right. And I think people need to be mindful there for people who are looking for maybe attorneys or just, you know, trying to gain more or understand more the benefits of mediation and and collaborative You know, to be, like one thing that hate about the parts is the litigation, it's very it, very eagle driven.

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:33.000

And what frustrates me is sometimes when attorneys are maybe pushing their clients to litigation because it's more about an eagle type of thing.

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:37.000

They like going to court, they like fighting. And you know, granted it's this may be necessary in some type of cases where you're dealing with serious issues.

00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:51.000

Maybe domestic violence or alcohol addiction where you can't be, you know, and you have a party that you have their party, the other side is, is just stuck and can't realize the harm.

00:48:51.000 --> 00:49:00.000

There the accountability that maybe but sometimes when you just have things like a disagreement about Time with the kids.

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:05.000

Litigation attorneys can do more harm than good when you have an attorney that's just like you gotta go to court.

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:06.000

So yeah.

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:13.000

Oh yeah. And it's exactly, I mean, we know the statistics are really clear. You know, that we know the statistics are really clear.

00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:27.000

You know, that we know that more than 95% of cases, that we know that more than 95% of cases, family law cases settle, meaning that more than 95% of cases, family law cases settle, meaning that somehow those 2 people come to an agreement which means that family law cases settle meaning that somehow those 2 people come to an agreement which means that less than 5% I think that somehow those 2 people come to an agreement which means that less than 5% I think you know there's arguments that it's 3

00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:36.000

to Need a judge to tell people what they're going to do that is a tiny little portion that actually need to go to trial.

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:55.000

But the problem is when you're on that litigation route, and this is what makes collaborative law so powerful, by the way, because this is not the path that you're on.

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:56.000

Alright.

00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:02.000

When you are on the litigation pathway, like trial is an ultimate possibility. For your case, then your attorney ethically, always has always has to be preparing as if you're going to trial.

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.000

Right. Yeah.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:09.000

Always have to be pulling everything together and making sure that if trial happens, they're ready to go and they're ready to advocate.

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000

Right.

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:16.000

Zealously for their client. I think those are the words that are in our ethical code, right?

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:17.000

Yeah.

00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:24.000

And, and So yes, you're trying to negotiate an amicable settlement. But if we don't settle.

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.000

I'll see you in court and I'm gonna beat you into submission, right, with the facts in the long.

00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:30.000

Yeah.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:31.000

Oh, God.

00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:43.000

Because that's my job. And, you know, collaborative and collaborative law, it's, it's clear from the outset that those attorneys will not participate in litigation.

00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:44.000

Yeah.

00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.000

Right, that's not going to happen. And so it takes that mindset off the table. And I don't think that.

00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:53.000

It's easy for clients to understand that difference. But for us as professionals. It's huge.

00:50:53.000 --> 00:51:01.000

It's huge this night and day folks night and day between a collaborative divorce trained mediator trained attorney and a litigation attorney.

00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:03.000

I mean, it's really hard. I don't know if I've even described it well, but I try to.

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:10.000

Because experiencing it as a professional, I know how profound those differences are.

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:28.000

Right. Yeah. And for the for the lawyers out there listening to this, what can, you know, what in terms of the Must and Guthrie Academy, what courses do you suggest those attorneys to hate to help them with that mind shift?

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:36.000

Yeah, you know, and I, we talked about it at the very top of the episode. I don't think there's ever enough training that we can do as good professionals, but we have the 40 h mediation training.

00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:37.000

Alright.

00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:45.000

It's the 40 h family and divorce mediation training. We do twice a year which is the one that you took.

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:54.000

I think that that's a must for every family. Professional really. I don't think you need to just be an attorney.

00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:55.000

Okay.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:00.000

I think we have financials who take it, we have therapists who take it, coaches, so many that we, so many different people we had remember somebody who was a designer and architect who took it in the last class.

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:13.000

But we also are holding in I think it's February or April of next year. We're gonna hold our very first introductory collaborative training.

00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:14.000

Oh, okay.

00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:30.000

We're going to hold our very first introductory collaborative training. And again, I think every, even if you are a litigator, I think you will benefit from taking mediation and collaborative trainings because You truly get into that space where you can help your clients when you stop seeing only 2 possibilities.

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:31.000

Yes.

00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:39.000

What the facts say in the law says and understand that for your clients there's very very likely very likely a third way.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.000

That will work best for them. And you need that training to help them get there.

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:52.000

Yeah. And Susan, you've been a mediator for over 10 years now and you still do 40 h trainings, right?

00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:56.000

Yes, I mean, I do them by teaching them, but I also take me, 40 h mediation trainings.

00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.000

Yeah.

00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:09.000

I take advanced mediation trainings. I go to God. I just got in the past 2 weeks.

00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:10.000

Oh my goodness.

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:14.000

I've attended or spoken at 9 different conferences or someinars or symposiums on advanced, you know, advanced skills and trainings.

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:23.000

Yeah.

00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:24.000

Yeah.

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:29.000

So I'm, I'm constantly in a training or leading a training and when I lead a training, I learn as much in those from either my fellow trainers or from the other people who are in taking the training.

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:35.000

So often like that story I told you about the judge who said, do you love your children? Do you love your children?

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.000

Well, I don't. That was something that I learned from someone who attended one of our mediation trainings.

00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.000

Oh yeah, yeah.

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:51.000

And, and so, you know, from that perspective of always, always be learning ABL. I just don't think you can take enough trainings.

00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.000

I enjoy them. I think I get better with everyone.

00:53:54.000 --> 00:54:07.000

Yeah, yeah, I could be a training junkie as well. I love trainees. I just love learning and improving my skill set and one day when I grew up I hope to be like you Susan.

00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:08.000

Well.

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.000

Still in experience in this fountain of wisdom about mediation.

00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:18.000

Oh, I having been in a training with you, I can say I my considered opinion is that you're already there.

00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:19.000

Oh, thank you. To them.

00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:38.000

So, and I love that you took the the mediation training to further, I mean I think it's just the sign of a top tier professional that someone wants to add to their skill set and is open minded and you you really you know you really were a wonderful participant in that 40 h training.

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:39.000

Yeah.

00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:41.000

I think you you're going to be taking the co-parenting training as well, which is one of our amazing trainings.

00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:48.000

Yeah, I, you know, I'm a I'm a Moses and Guthrie training junkie.

00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.000

It will.

00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.000

Well, we love our training junky family as we call you. So it's wonderful to have you in it.

00:54:52.000 --> 00:55:00.000

Yes. Well, thank you, cause folks, they are that good. They're that good. They're that amazing.

00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:16.000

They're that transformative where I just I just want to suck up all of your knowledge and wisdom because it is so powerful and you know more importantly helps me helps my clients and that's what's about helping people move on to that next step.

00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:21.000

In in a healthy and positive in healing way.

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.000

Yeah, you know, that's a really, really wonderful choice of words to say healing because people do not think of the divorce process as a healing process.

00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:51.000

They see it as a destructive process. And and it can be healing you can come out on the other side stronger and better different absolutely different it's going to be different but there's so much power in taking control of your own process and working together to do it.

00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:52.000

Yeah.

00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:02.000

And you and I have both seen that. So I really appreciate that that you're a professional who sees the power of learning more that's something that when Woody and I created Must and Guthrie the Academy.

00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:13.000

We really truly wanted it to be something where a Most and Guthrie trained professional was going to truly be able to be there to support their clients to that better path.

00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.000

Through. A divorce. So we're working hard at it.

00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:20.000

Right. Okay. Oh, thank you so much. You folks are doing a fabulous job.

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:27.000

And speaking of that, how can people get a hold of you for training or just contact you for mediation services.

00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:31.000

Yeah, the easiest way is just to go, for the training, it's to mastin gut 3.com, which is the website for the academy. All the trainings are on there.

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:43.000

If you're looking for a Most and Guthrie trained professional, just shoot me a quick email, tell me where you are and what type of matter that you have.

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:49.000

So if you're looking for a mediator or a collaborative professional financial professional, we have trained hundreds.

00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:53.000

If not thousands of professionals at this point, so we help try to connect people, you can send that to Susan at Boston Guthrie.

00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:03.000

Calm and my regular website for services is Susan, Susan Eguth 3. Com. So.

00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:04.000

And folks, we're gonna. Oh, go, go ahead. Can you see that again?

00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:11.000

Had to put my middle initial in. No, no, no, I was just gonna say it's Susan egot 3.com.

00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:15.000

So because there's another lovely lady who's got the name Susan Guthrie who grabbed that website.

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:16.000

Okay.

00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:20.000

So very often are like I couldn't find you. I'm like did you put the E in the middle?

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:39.000

And Guthrie is spelled G you. THRI E And of course, if you go to, the Oki on a law YouTube page or my website will have Susan's info there as well and A Kiona spelled AKI O and A.

00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:44.000

And Susan, no, people want to hear more of you. You have your own podcast as well.

00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:55.000

I do. I have 2. So for those who are listening who are going through the divorce process or just Throughout wanting to thrive in their beyond I have the divorce and beyond podcast.

00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:06.000

It's very much about getting through the divorce process, but I really try to focus on that fact that, you know, finite period of time in your life and then you have a whole future, a whole beyond.

00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:15.000

And so we have a lot of different topics. I think I have. 3, 350 different episodes there and then I also for professionals have a podcast.

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:16.000

Bye.

00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:22.000

Called Make Money Mediating. It's not just about making money and it's not just about mediation.

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:31.000

It's about a lot of different ways to thrive in your practice. So that one actually is the new season starting shortly.

00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:32.000

Yeah.

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:33.000

Exciting, very exciting. Susan, thank you much. Susan Guthrie, thank thank you so much for being on our podcast today.

00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:41.000

It's been a pleasure. Really enjoyed this.

00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:42.000

Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed our conversation.

00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:49.000

Yeah. And again folks you've been listening to another episode of the Okiona Law Podcast.

00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:59.000

I am Ulu Lani, Lonnie Akeona, and in our podcast we talk about anything and everything that intersects with the areas of family law and divorce.

00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:06.000

And again, Susan, it's been it's been a pleasure and I will see you at the next Must and Guthrie.

00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.000

I'm looking forward to it. Thank you so much for having me.

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.000

Alright, to my listeners out there, again, this podcast episode is available on the YouTube channel and we do have closed captions on as well.

00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:16.000

So everyone till the next time take care.

00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:24.000

Alright