The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Kristyna Larch

In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Lani speaks with certified divorce financial analyst, former president of King County Collaborative Law, attorney Kristyna Larch. We untangle the threads of two major mediation styles: shuttle and facilitative. We also explored the diverse team that can support a successful mediation journey.

Transcript

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Yeah.

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What's all this? Okay. Okay, there we go. Okay.

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Alright, I'm just count down. 5, 4, 3, 2, one. Hello, I'm welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast.

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We're in, we talk about anything and everything that intersects with the areas of family law and divorce.

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And today I'm excited to have with me collaborative law attorney and mediator Christy Larch.

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Christy, welcome to the show.

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Good morning, I'm so happy to be here.

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Yeah, thank you for being here. So Christie has years of experience working with in the legal system.

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She has been an advocate for victim as domestic violence. She's also worked with victims of sexual assault.

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She's worked with family law commissioners. She was a court appointed special advocate and dependency cases and then she decided to become a lawyer.

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She's been a lawyer for 14 years and she's a former divorce litigator but now again she's working she is just doing collaborative divorce.

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And mediator. She's also a former president of the King County Collaborative Law. King County Collaborative Law Group here within the state of Washington.

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I think that's pretty complete.

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Christy, did I leave anything out? Yeah, you've got like tons of experience.

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I'm one of those people that's a hard time sitting still and that's been a nice portfolio career.

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Yeah.

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It's all bit together really well, built upon itself and all of those skills from all of those different areas.

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Have translated into what I'm currently doing.

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Hi. I think it's fascinating how you have all that different experience and just these, you know, you're just more than a family while litigation and now you're transitioned over to collaborative law and being a mediator.

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I really, really enjoy this work. It's frankly one of the reasons or one of the things that I focused on in law school.

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Alright.

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Collaborative law was fairly new at the time. There had been a number of people here in the community that had been doing it and really growing the practice area and the practice of.

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Cooperative law and was came out of school prepared to do that went to work for litigation from because those are the people that I knew I knew everyone in the court system at the time.

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And they the. Firm owner, let me practice, so I practice litigation because that was where most of the need was and then grew a collaboration because that was, where most of the need was and then grew a collaborative practice while I was there.

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Okay, so you've been doing collaborative laws since you became, since you became a lawyer then.

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Yeah.

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So when did you start doing collaborative law full time?

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Okay.

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You know. It's always a question, right? What percentage of anyone's case load? Handle through the collaborative process.

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Okay.

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I would say about 6 months ago, I gave up the remainder of my litigation cases. So up until 6 months ago I had a little of those mostly collaborative for probably the last 6 years or so.

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And you also do you also are a family law divorce mediator. Tell us about that. How did you get into doing that?

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Okay.

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Yeah. Right, so the type of mediation that I offer is facilitated mediation and so the individuals are with me either in Zoom or in person, but we're face to face.

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And so it's interest based. We don't come in, neither of the clients comes in with positions already prepared.

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And we work through very much like in the collaborative process gathering information, understanding the information. Making sure that's the data set that's complete for both individuals.

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Get the amount of transparency they need and to be able to consider all of the variables that are important to them and ultimately making a decision.

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About how to allocate their resources between the 2 of them. As they're divorcing and restructuring.

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Versus shuttle mediation. Where people are in separate rooms and the mediator is shuttling offers back and forth.

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They've already come in with positions. I need to receive and I have a right to this. And the other person says the opposite.

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Okay. Right.

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And they're working from those 2 places. And this is instead a much more holistic. Way of doing it and there are many of us in the community to mediate this way.

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I have.

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Now, let me ask you this. Have you done shuttle mediation before? Okay, and. I can tell it you didn't like it.

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I fair to say. Yeah.

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Okay. Right.

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Well, you know, it's funny. I, that's great. No, I did it both as a and as an attorney for years and litigation because That's our go to in litigation.

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It is. It is.

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Yeah, and also used some of our and it's better because I'll give their names out even now that I'm mediating.

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In a facilitative style myself. Other facilitated mediators in our collaborative community who I really, really respect, had used them over the years.

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And I always prefer to use them because people would spend 2 h with their mediator at a time.

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Oh.

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Right.

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It's more of a conversation. It's easier for most people to endure 2 h of that business and of those conversations than it is for them to get thrown in a room.

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After reading a letter from the other person. That said some things that were probably really, really hurtful.

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Yeah.

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Great.

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It is in building the other person's positions and setting the bar as high as they could. They naturally said things that hurt the other person.

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Yeah, that's so true whenever we do our mediation, mediation, and, I always have to prepare the client.

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Okay, don't get upset. They're just They're coming out and they're saying, they're trying to position themselves in the best light possible.

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So they're gonna say negative stuff about you and if they're asking for $20,000 in spousal maintenance, don't freak out.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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They're just trying, they're trying to go for the mood, knowing that you gotta come down and bargain.

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But yeah, it's just, it's almost like such a gut punch. To the client to to be in that process.

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It is. And what a horrible place to start a conversation. So then everyone shows up the next day or a couple of days later ready to do battle.

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Exactly. Yeah.

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And you have an 8 h day. Which to a 10 or 12 h day, which is horrific for people.

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Hey. It is.

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While the mediator in that type of a setting puts pressure on each of them in their separate rooms and tells them each.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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These are your risks. And the attorneys that always call the other attorney out in the hallway. Can we talk?

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Okay. Yeah.

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Does your client have space to do XY, and Z? And let them know too, you know, where my client just does not.

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So again, with facilitated, and it feels that it removes a lot of the gamesmanship.

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The gamesmanship, yes! Yes. Yeah.

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And it's much more straightforward. Talk about what you really want. Not which you believe you have to say.

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Okay.

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So that you can come down and agree to the that you really agree to. It eliminates if people are amenable to that.

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All of that stuff in the middle.

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Well, you just, you really describe really perfectly the shuttle mediation process. And it's a stressor process and you know it is the gamesmanship is frustrating and it's especially frustrating to when you're dealing with, a lawyer on the other side and it's that's kind of entrenched almost in that gamesmanship in that in that battle.

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Yeah, that's when we go to the 1012 h.

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Right, right. And you know, I've been guilty of being the one I so often was the one who would set the boundaries with my client and with the mediator and with the other attorney.

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If the parties haven't made traction by about x time. We should respectfully schedule another session and leave.

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Everyone's too tired. They're going to make bad decisions. And but I have also been the person who got sucked into maybe they're going to be able to do it.

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You know what, if they haven't done it in the eighth hour, they need a break. They're not gonna do it today and if they do they're not gonna do it well and they're gonna wake up upset with the agreements they made.

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Right.

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So, but you know, with facilitated mediation, the other thing that's really different is that people don't have attorneys present.

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Yeah.

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And that's a really different dynamic because we have.

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Right, hold on, hold on a second. Can I pass you? Is that, are you talking about like all the time there's no attorneys person.

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Sometimes there's a Chinese person, right?

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Yeah, okay.

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Sometimes they are, yeah, generally not, but sometimes they are. And that can happen in a couple of different ways or for different reasons.

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Okay, so let me not, okay, so you were saying in the facilitated process a lot of the times people don't have their attorneys present.

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Right.

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And what's the dynamic like with that? Cause you know, as a person, I feel like, oh no, I need to have my attorney present.

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How do I know I'm gonna be I'm gonna get what I want my interests are being represented.

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Absolutely. So, you know, shuttle mediation and again, it serves a purpose. There are things about shuttle mediation.

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Yeah.

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It's also called evaluative mediation. That it's right for some people. One of the things that does is it's a space where the attorneys are still arguing for the clients.

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Yeah.

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A mediator is talking directly with the client, but the attorney is interjecting and they're arguing, but they're in a different room.

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Yes.

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So the other spouse, the other partner isn't hearing what that attorney is saying about them. So there's a little bit of a shield which is helpful.

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In facilitative mediation. People are being encouraged to speak in a way that they can actually be heard by the other person.

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Huh.

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And the other person has space to hear. And the understanding can be checked. And then there can be a response.

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But it is. Even though people have a tendency to want to go to a place of argument. I want what I'd like because We try to not do that.

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Again, more of a conversation. What are their needs? Build on that. And they have to also be considering the other person's needs.

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So I do ask everyone. Sort of a soft requirement to have attorneys when they're at a facilitated mediation process because they do need to be able to consult with an attorney and get people advice.

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And I'll sometimes send them away with a question for the attorneys. And it's transparent. And I'll usually ask them to ask their attorney what they would advise the other client.

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If they had the other client so that we can bring a full set of data from the attorneys and from the legal advice position back into the room.

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Wait a minute, let me pause you on that. So you have, okay, so like I'm the wife, right?

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And I'm saying I want $5,000 maintenance for let's say 5 years. So you're gonna, you're telling me, okay, go to your attorney.

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And oh gosh. I can't. My brain's not functioning. You said, you said something about you're gonna have me as the wife client go to my attorney and have him give me advice about whether or not the husband can pay me $5,000 plus.

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I know I'm not saying it right. Okay.

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No, that's it's a great way to ask that though. Yes, and we do that transparency transparently.

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So as the mediator, I have both of the clients and all of the conversations. And I will say, I think here that might be a data point that would be really helpful.

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Especially if someone is struggling with whether it's their own ideas or a lack of clarity around the law, which is a whole other topic because the law and family law is so gray.

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It's all discretion, right? And it really comes down to would you like the court to make the decision for you?

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So people need that or would you like to be the ones who make your own decisions and that does involve things that work for both of you.

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But yeah, we'll have a very specific question quite often, not always. And that's a great example.

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Yeah.

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Huh.

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Right.

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Why don't you go and talk to your attorney about their ideas around duration? At amount under your circumstances and again, please ask them what they would say to you if you already other client, if they have the other

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Okay, like considering, cause like, like in this scenario, the husband's like, I take home 6 grand a month.

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I can't pay you $5,000 a month. I can't pay you $5,000 a month.

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Right.

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And so the wise attorney is just basically advising her like, okay, well. You know, I'm not representing the husband and I would tell him that, you know, if you're taking home $6,000 a month, if you're paying her $5,000 a month, you can't afford to pay your own bills.

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Right. And that attorney is gonna say things like, and the court won't make you do that.

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Yeah, right.

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Right. And so they'll also get some other. Sort of.

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Contours.

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What's the word I'm looking for? Contours or boundaries around that because they're attorney as their advocate and the one providing them with legal advice.

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Can help them to look at those pieces because it's never just this amount. Of support based upon this.

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Hmm.

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Of income. Again, why there is discretion. And I also talk a lot with people about. And then it's helpful after we talk about what I'm gonna say for them to be able to have the conversation with their attorney who is their advocate who is providing them legal advice is the idea that It's all a matter of discretion.

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Especially when we're talking about something like spousal support. Very discretionary. We talk about the statute.

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Yeah. Yes.

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Okay.

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What are the factors the court has to consider? And a part of that is and anything else. And then we also, you know, so would you like another person, a third party who's the judge, even if it's a great judge.

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I have so much respect for the people on the bench. King and Saunders County are the 2 counties that I practiced in.

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They work so hard. You know, most of the time they do their reading and some of them even read it twice.

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Yes.

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So not afraid of that. It's just that would you ever like another person exercise discretion about your life no matter who they are or would you 2 like to figure it out even though that requires some compromises?

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But we also talk about the standard for appeal. Abusive discretion. Because

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Oh, you talk about the standard for a few? Wow! Okay.

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Huh.

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Right.

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I think it really helps people to understand the discretion of the court. If the standard on appeal is abuse of discretion, and you are given broad discretion, how do you know when someone's abused their discretion?

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It's tough.

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Not very often. You're not going to abuse it very often probably because the default is that you have discretion.

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And you have to do something out of bounds.

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And when you see. And when you say you have discretion, you're talking about that family all judge has broad discretion.

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Yeah.

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To decide was. To decide what's fair and equitable in a family in a divorce case. For hot discretion.

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Absolutely.

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What's fair and equitable? It's a really big It's not. It's a big hula hoop.

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Yeah.

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And isn't it, right? Right and how that person sees it. Based on the facts that are before them and the rules of evidence that have shaped those facts and limited those facts or expanded them.

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Right.

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And the things they don't get to hear because the rules of evidence exclude them. And I think sometimes I hope it is helpful for individuals who don't know it's their first radio.

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They don't have experience doing this. It's their lives. To understand a little bit about what it means for someone else to have discretion.

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They can do it good job. They can do their job very, very well. But they're gonna pick.

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Yeah, and I think it's what's interesting is that and I remember I had this problem too when I was a new lawyer and I was working with a new lawyer in a case and I was talking to him about also you can do continue to family afterwards and he said, I don't know.

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I don't really like family law because it seems like the courts and the judges don't follow the rules like they don't follow the case law and and then I had to say well it's not what people don't understand is that there's no black letter bright line rule in family law or divorce.

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The answer is it depends. It depends on the facts and circumstances in the case. It depends on your jurist and their own experience because in family law, the court has broad discretion.

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To do what's in the best interest of the children. To divide asits and debts in a fair and equitable manner.

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And that is so, such a huge pinstroke. And they have so much, What's the word?

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I'm not thinking liberally. But you know, they There's that other synonym for when someone has they can exercise broad liberty, but I don't want to keep on saying discretion.

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Right.

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But they have a lot of authority within their, their scope. To make decisions and family long divorce that doesn't necessarily follow black letter law because you can't that's not the way.

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The family law court system and the case law structure.

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Great.

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Right, and it's really unfortunate for individuals who you know, they may have a good case, you know, as a, so often I would need someone hear their story.

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Ask some questions and after interviewing them realize Well, I'm so saddened by their circumstances and so concerned for them.

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Oh, they have great facts. Yeah, a great case. And what a strange thing to say to another human being.

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Yeah.

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Right! Oh my god.

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You have a great case because things are so clearly horrible. It's really horrible. And because then you assume that the person who's hearing those facts.

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Right.

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Is gonna operate in a much more narrow range of discretion. You, but it is always the case. And I think that people don't always realize that They don't see anything they want.

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They're not going to convince the judge necessarily, cause again, it's another person outside of your own head.

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And your own circumstances. And, we burn ourselves when we're exercising our discretion when we're making a ruling that we're doing any of that.

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Right. And I think that's, you know, like the more I practice law, like you're probably like this too when you're newer, you're like, we gotta go to court, we gotta go to court.

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Right.

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Let's have the judge decide and the more that I practice law I'm like, no. I don't I don't want the court deciding because you just you don't know you may have good facts but you still don't know and it's just so much more powerful for you to decide.

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And that's what I love about like you're talking about this and again, like your, it's you explain so well the difference between shuttle mediation and facilitated mediation where the shuttle mediation you still have that pressure for the media and well the pressure from the media in the sense that well if you don't settle today then you're gonna have to go to court and this is how the

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court might rule. So still that subtle pressure to resolve things. And so talking about facility base mediation.

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So I'm here. Right, I'm the wife trying to get divorced with my husband.

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We've got 2 kids ages 12 and 14. I was a half I was a houseway so I need maintenance to transition back.

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And so you're starting off with me and my husband in the room. And then so you start off with basically saying, tell me, you know, tell me, Lonnie, what are your interest here?

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Are you putting it down like on a whiteboard identifying like the wife's interest and the husband's interest?

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Bye.

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It depends. So we usually start with high goal, just like in a collaborative matter. So that both people have the opportunity both of the clients to become really clear on and, and, Great.

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Okay.

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Kind of their own vision board. What they would like things to look like. During their process when they're done and sometimes a ways out.

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:56.000

And when we do that and we work with those high end goals and then they are interest based, we can.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:07.000

As individuals have a much better sense of where we're going, where we're trying to get to.

00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:08.000

Yeah.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.000

You know what those goals are and then we can find lots of ways typically to meet them. This is with a position, there's only one way to meet it.

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:17.000

So it's often not going to get met. Yeah.

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:18.000

Alright.

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:22.000

Yeah, and it's like, agree to my proposal or take your leave it. I've done that.

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:29.000

I've done that. I've done that. You know, when you're going back and forth between your counters and art or counters and can't offers and camera offers.

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000

Yes.

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:36.000

I've told the meteor to before, okay, this is our This is our best and final offer.

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.000

Take it or leave it. Tell the other side that.

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.000

Okay.

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:47.000

Oh goodness. But okay, so let's so we've got the high end goals, right?

00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:53.000

And so I've got spousal maintenance. I've got child support. I've got, my own home.

00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:02.000

So in terms and just, this is just going back again to where we're not doing that 8, 1012 h mediation where everybody's just dead.

00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:15.000

So we're kind of breaking it up. Where we're like, so you're asking me, my spouse, okay, we've got these, we've got white high-end goals, we've got husbands high in goes, what do you guys want to tackle first?

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:34.000

So we say, I want to talk about spouse and maintenance. So if we talk about spouse maintenance for 2 h, do you then say, okay, and let's say we reach an agreement and you say, okay, do you guys wanna continue going to talk about child support or do you say, in here as schedule second session to talk about trial support because it is still tiring.

00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:35.000

Even after hours

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:38.000

That is such a good, yeah. And I apologize, I'm turning the sound off on my phone.

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:48.000

I had a, family emergency thing occurring earlier. So I had left it on but I've turned it off and I apologize for that.

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.000

Oh. I didn't hear anything. I just heard. I just heard my own voice.

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:59.000

You know, oh good, good. Good. Okay, good. I feel like you know those teams and things like that can be so distracting.

00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000

Good.

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.000

Which is a part of the conversation, by the way, about the returning to in person that so many of us were having.

00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:11.000

I know you're involved in those conversations all the time. But what I do is we work from an agenda.

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:24.000

And so every time that we're going to have a meeting, we have a very specific agenda for that meeting based on that couple based on what's going on with them so that everyone is prepared for those conversations.

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:30.000

Then we will sometimes end early. And that may be because we've done all that we've come to do.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:42.000

Or. The individuals aren't really ready to move into the next part of the agenda. Somebody is really flooded, someone now got some new information and need some additional information.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:57.000

But it's structured in a very methodical way that's individually tailored. And I usually, you know, if we're working on parenting, we typically won't work on that during a financial meeting.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000

Yeah. Okay.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.000

It'll be one or the other because I think that's very hard for people to shift from those 2 spaces.

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:03.000

It is hard.

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:10.000

But we'll often do it where we're talking about property as one meeting. And then at the next meeting, we'll talk about support, as one meeting.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000

And then at the next meeting, we'll talk about support, usually spousal and child support.

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:21.000

And then often we'll come back and pull all of those pieces together. And sometimes we may be pulling some aspects of the parenting plan back in at that meeting.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:35.000

But it's always thoughtful and tailored to. Who are the individuals and what do they need and what's going to work well for them.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.000

Alright.

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.000

Because everyone is so different and how they process and function and what their tolerances for conversations.

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:49.000

And Christy, you mentioned the term. Just to kind of define things for some people. You mentioned the terms flooding and I think you also talked about holding the space.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.000

Can you explain what those terms mean?

00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:04.000

Right. So when someone's flooded. They have a really hard time processing. They don't even always realize it.

00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000

Yeah.

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.000

The data that's in front of them, even if it seems like simple data. The words the other person is saying.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:15.000

It's sort of like all the blood flowing to Wind Center. Instead of needing to be out in all the extremities.

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000

Yeah.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:22.000

And you know, at best, sometimes someone can let me know when they're flooded, which is really lovely.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.000

Wow. Okay.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:32.000

They can say I'm feeling this. Or they can tell me I'll sometimes ask again, depends on the individuals that I'm working with and why I may or may not ask.

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:41.000

How will I know? Can you give me an idea of what I might see or experience when you're feeling flooded?

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.000

Because many people it isn't obvious. They don't wear it on their sleeve. And, so that we can look for that.

00:25:45.000 --> 00:26:04.000

But I do find that a lot of people because we the 3 of us develop a relationship together. And there the idea is that we have a high level of trust and the ability to be vulnerable and the ability for it to be a safe space.

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:05.000

Huh.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:08.000

So that someone can say, I need a break. I feel really flooded. I just stopped hearing what that person was saying.

00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:22.000

I can sometimes see it in A person will repeat something. Or It's clear they're not responding to the question the other person asked or the idea that the other person expressed.

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.000

And so sometimes that'll give me an opportunity to check in with them.

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.000

So you'll be like, let's take a 5, 10 min break for a second.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:31.000

Yeah.

00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:35.000

Okay. And then can you talk about holding the space for someone?

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:39.000

Oh yeah, so holding a space looks a little different depending on the individual who it is that I'm working with.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:54.000

It in one way it manifest as a space where they can both come and be heard. So one person speaks, I might think it's really clear what I just heard.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:00.000

Check in with the other person because for the other person it may not be as clear. Because they have a history together.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.000

Yeah.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:08.000

They might be flooded. They might be hearing the dialogue in their own head. You know, it's just the re human being sitting in a table together.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000

Right.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:18.000

And the other piece of that is if someone has said, I have a tendency to cave and say yes too easily to the ideas of the other person because this is just so uncomfortable for me to have to do any business with them.

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:37.000

It always has been. And so it may be that I see something happening and we pause and we either take a break or we just verbally note it.

00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:48.000

I see this happening or I wonder if when I see you do this. So different ways that we can do that.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.000

Yeah.

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:56.000

Holding a space, sometimes it's boundaries. If someone is supposed to go get legal advice and come back and bring that data back to the meeting so there can be a deeper and more.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:08.000

I guess a broader conversation with more data points. And they haven't done it. Part of holding that space might be rescheduling.

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Because the other person may be feeling really, really frustrated. That the other spouse hasn't done the homework.

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000

Right.

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:25.000

The way they understood it to be assigned. So holding the space, I'll use that in a lot of different contexts, but it literally is meaning.

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:36.000

We've all agreed we would do this a certain way, but going to do it a certain way and I'm going to be the one who monitors that and watches that along the way.

00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:44.000

And I know just, you use the term data points too. Can you explain to the listeners, you know, to to the lay person, what does that mean when you

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.000

Right, so we often think of data points as an account balance. Or a date that we obtain that account balance.

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.000

Okay. Okay.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:09.000

But data points are other things as well. If we're talking about a house that might be a house that had a tremendous amount of deferred maintenance and both of the individuals say, yeah, we know there was a lot of deferred maintenance and so some additional data points they may need to get are what would it cost to repair this, how light it impact sale if they're selling at the time.

00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:32.000

But it also data points are also Why does something matter to someone? So it goes again to those interests and needs.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.000

Oh.

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:38.000

It's more values based. And so some data points are value based. And really understanding why something is important to someone.

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:47.000

Is another type. But another type of data point is the law. And as you talked about, the law is not magic in family law.

00:29:47.000 --> 00:30:03.000

It's not. It's a lot of experience people working based on their experience. Both in the court system and in the collaborative process, you know, the voluntary process.

00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.000

Right.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.000

So, a lot of times the data point will be the legal point of reference. What do the attorney say?

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:12.000

Sometimes the attorneys will give very similar advice if they understand the context and have the whole picture.

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:20.000

Okay.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:21.000

Yeah.

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:26.000

So all of the data points. Amount to something. A bucket of information. Hello people to make really good solid decisions that are what we all refer to as durable.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000

Wow.

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:37.000

Because they're agreements that they're going to. Want to abide by once they become a corridor once they become assigned property settlement agreement.

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:44.000

Because they made them knowingly willingly with a full understanding of all of the very data points.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:51.000

Yeah, that's That's a beautiful explanation. Were you ever a teacher? You explain things so beautifully.

00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:58.000

Okay. Thank you. That is a huge compliment. Thank you.

00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:07.000

I feel like you should be like a law school professor teaching the differences about mediation and all of this.

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:16.000

Okay. Thank you.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000

No.

00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:35.000

Okay. Oh my gosh. So just to kind of just to kind of recap in terms of the facilitation, process, you know, cause if I was a person looking to get involved with this, it kind of sounds like to me that first meeting is, is you're talking about identity, you know, identifying what are your interests, what are your high end goals like for a wife a high end goal would be, you know, to have my own place with the

00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:45.000

kids. So that's what you're doing at that first meeting. You're identifying interest high and goes and then let's set our agenda for the next meeting.

00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:46.000

Is that correct?

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:58.000

Pretty much. Sometimes with people and we'll use sort of a hybrid agenda or a check in agenda initially depending on how we met, what they've done in the interim and what the circumstances are.

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:09.000

Because again, we want to be really thoughtful with both the use of the resources and I always wanted, I always think about people's capacity to work in a voluntary process.

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.000

And so I want to do the things that I can do to be aware of what they need to work at their maximum capacity, meaning sit and hear from the other spouse.

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:30.000

Sit and share ideas openly or say. I heard that I don't know yet. I need some time to think about whatever it may be so they can be their best.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:40.000

But usually what we'll do is I'll give them homework when they first hire me and we'll set the first meeting based on that homework likely having been done where they've said, I think that's about enough time.

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:43.000

Okay.

00:32:43.000 --> 00:33:02.000

And so I'll put all their financial things together in a spreadsheet or in a report and then when we have the first meeting, one of the things we will do after we talk about the high end goals, if it's a financial meeting is we'll check through the data and see what else either or both of them need to know.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:07.000

In order to start working with their financial data.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:16.000

And so then I guess in the typical, facilitated mediation process, it sounds like there could be, especially if you're dealing something with kids, right?

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:21.000

We've got to do with custody. We've got to deal with a house. We've got to do what spouse will mean and child support.

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:28.000

It sounds like best case scenario. We're talking about 5, maybe 8 meetings. Sometimes more, of course.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.000

Right, right. And I have some people who will do it in fewer meetings. But I always let them know I can't know.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:44.000

Unless they told me certain things initially. But quite often that just doesn't manage us. People don't know and I would have to have a crystal ball.

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.000

And so I always have my eye on. Could we do more in this particular meeting? I've got a couple of couples right now where we're doing 1 h.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:56.000

With all Oh, okay.

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000

Which is not, I don't usually do that, but for them that makes a lot of sense.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:06.000

And so we're just having essentially conversation about these things for a shorter period. They'll go away checking with the trains, etc, come back and have the next.

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:20.000

But I think for people to expect to spend. 5 to 8 sessions figuring out all of their agreements and arrangements and understanding their data and their information.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:31.000

Mutually to make those arrangements that are for quite some period of time usually. Depending on what part we're talking about.

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:41.000

That they would spend 5 to 8 2 h meetings over a period of time. Is that actually really sensible?

00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:42.000

Yeah, that's yeah. I like that.

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:49.000

Yeah, and I think for most of us, we can see that. I think that's a hard thing for people when they first hear that.

00:34:49.000 --> 00:35:01.000

I think people I think it's a hard thing but at the same time, you know, we've done this and we just I know that the capacity It's 2 h because then it's just it's so emotionally tiring and taxing.

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:06.000

Yes.

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000

Yeah.

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:08.000

I'm in a patient person like I want to get things done. But these types of things, right?

00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:20.000

There's just so much thought. That comes into it. If you can, yeah, burnout is, a real thing in this type of scenario.

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:26.000

Absolutely. And I didn't mention in this context the use of other professionals. But I think there were some other things that you and I are going to talk about.

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:42.000

And we'll talk about those professionals, but I often even in a mediated session, I'm always assessing for whether there is value to clients of having an interdisciplinary team.

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.000

And so sometimes and we'll. We can talk about this or not. I think because this is one of these things.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:36:02.000

Where it gets a little more in depth. We might use a collaborative participation agreement for mediation. So that there's needed higher level of transparency involving attorneys who aren't present in those mediation sessions.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:03.000

Yeah.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:12.000

And the other reason is because, you know, we have fabulous child specialists. With fabulous divorce coaches and parenting coaches.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:17.000

And so, and we have fabulous financial neutral. It just depends on, you know what it is.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:25.000

So. I'm always when I meet people assessing for, you know, who are the people that could help them to.

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:31.000

Do this in a way where they're not only efficient, but they're effective and again have created something really durable.

00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:35.000

With the support that they need that's unique to them.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.000

You know, how often we're, you know, we're talking about facilitated mediation.

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:48.000

How often do you use some of those professionals? You talked about the divorce coach or child specialist of financial neutral.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.000

Oh.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:53.000

Oh, that's a great question. It's a hard one to answer because it is always on my mind.

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:54.000

Yeah.

00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.000

So in terms of how often do I assess for that always, how often do I use them?

00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000

Okay.

00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:06.000

It really just depends on the circumstances. So sometimes I'll have people who they've already met a pairing coach.

00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000

Oh wow.

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:17.000

And so, yeah, so they have the advantage of, you know, using that person for their parenting plan.

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000

Hmm.

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:33.000

And then I'll work with them through the financial pieces and the legal pieces. Sometimes I'll have people where They're particular circumstances, it just makes sense to have 2 separate professionals working with them and really separating the parenting and the finances.

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:39.000

So they're just unique reasons. So how often is it great question? I don't actually have a number for.

00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:58.000

Yeah. And you know, let's going back to these professionals, can you, can you let our listeners know out there like we talked about the financial neutral we talked about this financial specialist you know the child specialists and the divorce and the parenting coach or divorce coach Can you, let the listeners know out there?

00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:09.000

I guess define what each professional is and why would you want to use them?

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.000

Okay.

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.000

Absolutely. So I think the easiest way to answer the question is to shift process. So in a collaborative process, as you know, in a collaborative process you have an interdisciplinary team.

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:23.000

They are all working for the couple and you know this this is for the listeners. The parenting coach is also the divorce coach.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:29.000

So even if people don't have children, they have a divorce coach. It's a mental health professional.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:42.000

Who has specifically trained to do this particular work? And we all get to know each other, we all build skills with one another and we all work together because we trust one another.

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:52.000

And so it's a team approach for clients so that they have the inter disciplinary team to do a really thorough job for their family for themselves.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:00.000

And so the divorce coach will do anything from managing emotions and conversations, helping people to ideally be at their best doing their business together when they're in the room together.

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:13.000

When they're working as a parenting coach, you know, as an attorney on a collaborative team.

00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:22.000

I love the pairing coach role because clients get to sit with that one neutral in that person's office and work through things that the attorneys would have traditionally done with them.

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.000

And I think that's a great setting for that work.

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000

Like a parenting plan. Okay.

00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:44.000

Yeah, and so we'll have them create the whole thing with the pairing poach. A child specialist is someone who If for example parents might be working with a parenting coach, they might be working with a mediator and doing their parenting plan with their mediator.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:50.000

The child specialist is someone who they'll meet the children. As well as the parents.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:05.000

And the children have a space where they can say something to again a mental health professional. Who is gonna soften that and really protect that information when they take it back to the parents?

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000

To give the parents a additional data to make decisions with about the children and for the children for themselves as parents.

00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:19.000

And an example for me is one years ago, one of the child specialists that we all work with.

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:27.000

Met with a family and the children and the other attorney I had known this couple for quite some time because this was probably midway through their process.

00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:41.000

When they were ready to work on this piece and said, Something I learned about your children is they really miss the tactile experience.

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:53.000

Of the other home. And explained what that was to the parents and to both of the attorneys and the parents were able to do a very simple things like the same set of sheets in both houses.

00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:54.000

Oh.

00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:02.000

So when the child and I so I apologize, it was 2 children but one child with this particular concern, but their head down at night.

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:10.000

It felt the same across households and that comfort in from that small thing but that was important for this child.

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:11.000

Yeah.

00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:12.000

So the child specialist is gathering data directly from the children. They're not asking who they want to live with.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:21.000

They're not going to write a report to the court. They're not telling the parents exactly what the children said.

00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:22.000

Yeah.

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:35.000

But they're ringing that additional information in. I noticed about your child. And they're things that as a parent, you know, there are parents who often will know my child has very high tactile needs or.

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:43.000

Discomfort or whatever it may be. But this person as an outsider is getting a fresh look at their children.

00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:44.000

Right.

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.000

And so for parents who are like, I would have never thought of that because my child just goes to sleep.

00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.000

Okay.

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:59.000

Yeah. That child like I always kinda think the divorce coach. Helps is the emotional interpreter translator, especially in people are flooded.

00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:08.000

And then the child specialist. Gosh, and I just I just had it and I just lost it.

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:09.000

Okay. Okay.

00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:21.000

But it's essentially. It goes back to what you're kind of saying first because like you were saying sometimes like, oh, as a parent, yeah, my child just goes to sleep, but they provide that objectivity like, oh, this aha.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:29.000

Kind of like, oh yeah, oh, aha, about your child that you know as a parent but You just internalize it so much.

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:35.000

It's just. It's almost like breathing area. You don't kinda stop and think and define what it is.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:36.000

Got makes sense.

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:44.000

Right, right. Yeah, so they do a lot of that. They can help parents to make decisions by having some additional pardon me data having met directly with your children.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:59.000

And also to allow the children to maybe say things that they can take back for the parents to use in a constructive way without having to see that thing.

00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000

A team.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:05.000

They can provide a bit of a buffer and an example. Might be with the team. And the parents can then try to work with that.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.000

Those teenagers.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:20.000

Yeah, so that's another layer that's sometimes important. The other thing is you know in a collaborative matter we have the certified divorce financial analyst the CDFAs.

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.000

The financial neutral.

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:27.000

Right, right. And so people have a neutral person looking at all the finances and that person is essentially a clearing house, which might sound like not a big deal.

00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:46.000

And it really is because you can either have 2 attorneys being your clearing house. I hope they can agree about the data and how much of it where you can have a neutral that you do all of that with and it's far more efficient and that's all they do.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:50.000

Then they also are going to be the ones that are the holder and keeper of the data. So they're gonna compile everything.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:51.000

Yeah, the financial data. I answered.

00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:59.000

Everyone will work from that one place and make sure that it's an agreed universe of data.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:07.000

And then they can help to. Look at how might that look if it's allocated that way as these 2 people are thinking about it.

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:08.000

Yeah.

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:17.000

And be able to. You know, illustrated in a certain way so that someone who maybe isn't.

00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:26.000

You know, everyone sees and visualize things differently. Illustrated in a way that everyone again can be on the same page about what is it we're actually looking at.

00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:34.000

That we think we're discussing that we think we might be doing in allocating our assets and our income resources.

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:40.000

And the thing I like about the certified divorce financial analyst is that, you know, when you're attorney and you're trying to structure.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:47.000

A fair and equitable settlement at mediation. I don't know if the monies you receive now.

00:44:47.000 --> 00:45:06.000

I don't know what that's gonna look like or what you need 1020 years from now, but the certified divorce financial analyst, the CDFA can run that those projections out, which to me I would think is Is a true value because I don't want to know if I were divorcing person.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:12.000

I don't want to know what's for an equitable right now. What is that going to look like 20 years from now?

00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:23.000

Right, some people really, really like that. I tend to be someone who

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:24.000

Oh!

00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:30.000

I like people to use their financial planner when they're gonna make longer term decisions because And that's another thing on a collaborative case.

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:44.000

The cooperative team is having transparency around use of other professionals like that. If someone's using a financial planner, they'd like to, you know, we have so many who are collaboratively trained, who are a part of the collaborative community.

00:45:44.000 --> 00:46:04.000

So they are working. On the, problem solving. Part of things. They're at the table and the problem solving as opposed to creating positionality or planning and isolation of the reality or in isolation of everything.

00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.000

Okay.

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:10.000

So yeah, the CDA base can do that modeling. And sometimes long people work with their financial planners and then bring that information back.

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:19.000

Yeah. And I guess I'm talking about the aspect a lot of times I've used CDFAs, they've had that experience as being financial planners also.

00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:20.000

So then you get the best of both worlds.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:25.000

Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, and I think for some couples it's helpful for them to have that.

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:31.000

I tend to work with a lot of people who They don't opt for that because of all the assumptions that have to be used.

00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:42.000

Along the way, it just depends on the individual. But you're right, you know, for some people that has a lot of value and you're not going to get that from the attorneys.

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.000

We just don't do that.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:53.000

We don't do that. But another thing I like about the CDFA is that it really kind of, Yeah, you know, usually in a marriage, right?

00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:54.000

One person is almost like in control of the money, but just their usage is handling the expenses and the other person doesn't.

00:46:54.000 --> 00:47:06.000

So when the person wants spousal maintenance or something like that, sometimes they don't really understand the money coming in and the money going out.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:16.000

And it's not the husband wants to. Shortchange you the husband legitimately can't pay all of these bills and meet your desired financial need as well.

00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:39.000

And the CDFA can really break it down and be like this. This is the money coming in after taxes and after these bills and these bills and these bills and these bills, this is what's left over.

00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:40.000

Absolutely, especially as people are creating 2 households. An entirely new setting.

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:48.000

So it really kind of. Illuminates the you know, the finances of the household and what's doable and what isn't doable when we're looking at sp Yes, that's Yeah, 2 households now are doing.

00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.000

Right.

00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:08.000

Yeah. Well, thanks for, going over to explain those different positions. I kinda wanted to, again, just kind of circle back to the whole process of facilitative mediation and we were talking about scheduling these these maybe anywhere 5 to 8 meetings 2 h just to kind of in terms to keep them momentum going.

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.000

We're talking about scheduling these meetings on a weekly basis. Every other week. Okay, a couple of weeks, okay, to do the homework.

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:19.000

We just schedule a couple of weeks apart at least. Some people schedule 3 to 4 weeks apart depending on.

00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:20.000

How much time they need for homework in between.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:36.000

Oh. Right, right, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And so at the end, and now we're gonna circle back on to the end of this process are let's say these people don't have attorneys so they don't have their attorneys to prepare the final orders.

00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.000

Are you preparing the final orders for them or you just preparing?

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:47.000

Yeah, generally I am. And if they have attorneys and they've authorized me to talk to their attorneys, I'll always ask the attorneys if they have a preference as well.

00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:52.000

And I provide them in a Word document. I let people know your attorneys are going to possibly want to make edits.

00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000

Okay.

00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:01.000

They're gonna give you final advice and I just want the attorneys to have the fluidity as they work with their clients and the clients to have that fluidity.

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:17.000

But yeah, I'll put their agreements right into the property settlement agreement or any final orders because I don't see the reason to make people have to cut and paste that when they've made all of those intricate decisions.

00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:20.000

That are just being stated in that format.

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:28.000

So you're doing the final divorce order, the child support order, final parenting plan, the property settlement agreement.

00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.000

Wow, that's really valuable.

00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:46.000

Right. There's, yeah, there is a lot of efficiency and I just never want anyone to think that in doing that they can cut out attorneys because they do still need you know attorneys offer so much value.

00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:47.000

Yeah.

00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:56.000

Even if they've had a light touch. So when I'm working with clients and I'm not the mediator and I'm one of the attorneys representing or actually consulting for or with a client who's in mediation.

00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:06.000

I want to have a light of a touches works for them. And so when I get those final documents from Mediator, if they put them into the documents rather than a memorandum of understanding.

00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:15.000

I can see all the parts together. The nuances of it, make sure it really all works for my client in the full picture.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:16.000

Okay.

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:29.000

And then if there's something that needs to be altered, I can get a sense from my client of how the other client might feel about that or maybe I don't talk to the other attorney because of the agreement we all have.

00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:30.000

Yeah.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:38.000

It just depends. So yeah, I do, but they still should run them by their attorneys just to make sure that they have independent legal advice.

00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:41.000

And that someone doesn't have an attorney.

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:49.000

Once in a while someone doesn't and that's entirely their choice. You know, they have sufficient time to review things and that's part of the process.

00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:00.000

It's really important to me is that no one has ever rushed or coerced into signing something.

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:05.000

It happens on a timeframe that works for each person.

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.000

And you mentioned a memorandum of understanding. Can you explain that?

00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:19.000

Right, right. So. Sometimes when people mediate and this is perfectly normal as well and again, it's an option that I offer.

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:25.000

Their agreements will be put in a writing that just isn't in the final documents. It's separate from that.

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:35.000

It may be as comprehensive and then they sign that and that gets turned over their attorneys who will then put it in the final drops turned over their attorneys who will then put it in the final drops into the final.

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:44.000

Okay, now for the member it sounds like the member memorandum of understanding is similar to that. CR to a settlement agreement.

00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:49.000

Very similar and anytime

00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:00.000

So in facilitative mediation. And free. I'm gonna say an all mediation. It's a little more nuanced than that.

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:13.000

No one is signing anything until they get to the end. And they have global agreements. And so they've been able to measure the whole thing together and make sure that every part of it works and then it all works together for each of them.

00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:17.000

They.

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:26.000

We'll wait and sign it until it's complete. And again, after they talked with attorneys and received advice because it's binding once it's signed.

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:38.000

And that's that court role that you're talking about, which is once Parties have signed something if they're not represented and if they're represented they in their attorneys have signed it's impossible.

00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:46.000

And the courts generally gonna add full whatever those agreements are. So in mediation, regardless of where other people are represented.

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:57.000

We're really thoughtful about the pacing of that. And making sure that structurally people have all the information they need to have before they say yes to something.

00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:04.000

Are you? So after each meeting, are you just kinda doing like this a meeting summary kind of like in collaborative law, right?

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:12.000

The great question. Yeah, because some mediators do that. I tend to not. I'm in the camp of mediators who do not.

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:20.000

And the reason is most people are taking their own nodes. In a way that is helpful for them.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:28.000

The notes that I'm taking are to track process, to remember something about a conversation that happened that's going to be helpful for everyone later.

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:32.000

But they're geared towards what the work that I am doing for them. So I will prepare.

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:47.000

Meeting summary if people want it. The reason that I don't and this is always, you know, there are right and wrong pieces to both ways of doing this.

00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:48.000

Okay.

00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:52.000

When you prepare a meeting summary, it often isn't yet agreements. It's we considered you considered.

00:53:52.000 --> 00:54:09.000

You've asked for some additional data. You're going to do this next. Again, a lot of that people have just written down because most people will take a note that I need to call the realtor with my partner tomorrow.

00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:15.000

And we agreed that these are the things we want to ask them.

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:24.000

When you sent the meeting summary and again, there's no right or wrong. It's you know we all

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:25.000

Okay.

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:30.000

There just tend to be 2 camps of this. When you send a meeting summary, it can do a couple of things.

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:31.000

Okay.

00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.000

Number one, sometimes no one reads them. So it's something someone paid for that no one read.

00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:37.000

And then the other thing that can happen is someone forwards it to an attorney. Who they tell anybody they were working with.

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:40.000

Oh.

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.000

Who is in collaboratively trained? Do they have not bothered to invite into the process transparently so that that attorney can have context.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:52.000

Oh. Bye. Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:52.000 --> 00:55:04.000

So it's just a part of keeping it private for people, keeping it streamlined, keeping it cost-effective, but I will always ask and there are times where I will very specifically offer.

00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:11.000

Because in that moment it seems it would be a value to people and of more help then. 10 pendrums.

00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:15.000

There's just a lot. Discussed in a meeting.

00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:20.000

There is.

00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:21.000

At the end of a mediation process.

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:26.000

Are you always doing the memorandum of understanding? Yeah.

00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:27.000

Okay.

00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:33.000

Usually we're doing final orders. So property settlement. All of the things that would be in that memorandum of understanding in the full context.

00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:41.000

Well, so it sounds like you're only doing the memorandum of understanding if you perhaps aren't preparing the final orders.

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:48.000

Yeah, that's the only time I'll do that. So that again, there are additional layers unless someone had a need for that layer.

00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:59.000

Okay, got it. And Christy, how can people get in touch with you to work with you as a collaborative law lawyer or to have you be their mediator.

00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:10.000

Yeah, through my website, it has a contact button. Large law.com I have it posted recently, but I also try to put.

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:17.000

Small blog posts or information for people about some of the common questions that come up usually around the law.

00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:24.000

And large is spelled LARC H. Law lew.com. Okay.

00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:27.000

Yes, yes, large like the tree. Yeah.

00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:34.000

So that. That's it. So that's the best way for people to get contact with you then.

00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:35.000

Great.

00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:42.000

Yes, and then usually what I'll do is I'll set up a short, meet and greet with people so that I can meet both of the spouses.

00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:50.000

They can ask me questions about what is this process, especially as it pertains to them. And the 3 of us get a sense of what we want to work together.

00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000

Oh, okay.

00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:57.000

And then I'll have them sort of step away and talk amongst themselves and then let me know if they wanna work with me.

00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:05.000

Usually they're people I want to work with because usually they've either looked at my website and We have similar views about the world.

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:06.000

Right.

00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:11.000

And how we treat each other, you know, with the transparency and compassion and honesty and.

00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:22.000

Yeah, yeah, I love that transparency, honesty. Compassion. That's that should be the model for getting divorced.

00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000

Yeah.

00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:29.000

Instead of, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, when it all cost.

00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:34.000

Okay.

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:35.000

Oh, sure else.

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:39.000

Right, right. And it adds to the expense when there's a lack of transparency. Because someone's having to struggle to get the information they need.

00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:48.000

From the other person. So I really appreciate when people are able to recognize the other person needs the information to make decisions.

00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:51.000

Not gonna go any faster without it.

00:57:51.000 --> 00:58:15.000

And Christy, thank you so much for your time. And explaining the process of mediation, shuttle mediation and facilitated mediation, which is what you do, just amazing information you've given us, and before you go today, Christy, can you tell us a fun fact about yourself that maybe some wouldn't know just by looking at you or.

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:16.000

Yeah.

00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:24.000

Yeah, I like that.

00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:25.000

Oh!

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:27.000

When I was younger, old teen, I was a figure skater. And nice. Not for a while, yeah.

00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:39.000

And then I used up for a while and then I went back to the young adult and did it for a while again and it was the fattest part of my day and it was I'm old enough that it was when we also had to do compulsory figures.

00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:50.000

So you'd rent a patch of ice and you actually had to do figures and then you would get your open freestyle time on private ice with the other freestyle skaters.

00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000

That's the, so you were competing as a figure skater?

00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:04.000

I know I did not compete because I left the first time before I got to that point. And then, but I, so I put all of that effort into it to not compete because I loved it.

00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:08.000

So you can do like those crazy spins and stuff. That's crazy!

00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:21.000

Yeah, yeah, it was like flying. It was like flying. It was the most amazing feeling. So it's funny, I haven't thought about that in a while.

00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.000

Yeah.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:28.000

Oh my gosh, that is a fabulous fun fact. Okay. And folks that was a completely that she did not prepare for that question at all.

00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:32.000

That's completely off the cusp. Well, thank you so much, Chrissy. It's been a pleasure.

00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:38.000

Oh my god. Well, and thank you so much for having me. You so appreciate you take the time to do these.

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:41.000

These are really just a great way to get information out to people.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:49.000

Yes, and that's the whole purpose just to get that information out. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, Krish.

00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:50.000

That was a great waiting. To end today.

00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:54.000

Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:05.000

And for, those of you out there, thank you for listening to another episode of the Acuna Law Podcast and hope to have you back next time until then be well.

01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:09.000

Okay, so we're gonna go ahead and end it. Well, thank you, Kristy.

01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:10.000

That was fabulous.

01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.000

Thank you. For making that so easy. Good lot of fun.

01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:22.000

And I see that. This is what happens, right? We had, we're supposed to talk about collaborative law and then I just got some, we're talking with you about mediation.

01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:26.000

And the differences, I was like, we're just gonna go here now. Okay.

01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:34.000

Well, I love it because if your background, you know, you have both the litigation piece and the collaborative off piece.

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:43.000

And I just. I think when you have that litigation background, it just brings a lot of Pigmatism.

01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:44.000

Yeah.

01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:47.000

And it takes away a lot of the mystery.

01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:54.000

And I really loved how you explain the difference between shuttle and facilitated mediation and I really wish facilitative.

01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:57.000

I wish you moved to that model more.

01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:10.000

I do too because there are a lot of good facilitated mediators. The thing I didn't say I almost did is I will sometimes Give other names out, you know, if I need a couple of they're really discerning.

01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:21.000

Did he met me maybe a little more randomly than some? I'll ask that they want other names and I'll give them other names so that they can get a sense of how processes might differ.

01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:27.000

Even within a facilitative process because it's a relationship where I want it to be a good fit for people.

01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:35.000

Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much, Kristy, for your time. This was a fabulous podcast.

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:36.000

Okay.

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:40.000

Thank you. Oh, oh my gosh, that makes me feel so good. You did a fantastic job.

01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:41.000

No, Christie!

01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:45.000

Leaving it, facilitating it. And you made it really easy.

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:54.000

Well, you're such, Christy, you explain things so well. That's, I'm like, really, you should be like a law school professor part time.

01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:58.000

I love that partly because I have so many clients who are teachers and I think so much of them. I don't even know how you do that job.

01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:03.000

So I really appreciate that.

01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:13.000

Yeah. So we'll let you know when, you know, when this is up and ready to go so you can post it on your own.

01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:17.000

If you haven't sent us a headshot, we're gonna ask you for headshot.

01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:18.000

Okay.

01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:35.000

Put our 2 faces on there. And we kind of write a little blurb to describe the podcast and then we're gonna talk about like the thing is going to be about facilitative and and shuttle mediation and they'll kind of send it to you for like final looks.

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:39.000

And then we'll make it go live.

01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:40.000

It's fabulous.

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.000

Oh great. Right. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much and thanks for your patience and getting it set up.

01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:45.000

That took I know quite a while.

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:54.000

No, no, thank you for your patience. Thank you, I appreciate it. I appreciate your time and I appreciate you showing up despite, you know, again, I'm sorry about your aunt.

01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.000

Thank you.

01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:04.000

Well.You too