The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Leigh Noffsinger

In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Lani speaks with collaborative divorce attorney Leigh Noffsinger. In 2022 Leigh launched a training curriculum -- complete with comprehensive templates, checklists, and client handouts -- to support collaborative divorce cases from start to finish. She is passionate about making collaborative divorce as efficient as possible by scaling the process to meet each family’s unique needs.  Leigh previously served as the president of the Collaborative Professionals of Washington and has been involved in various collaborative organizations and practice groups over the last 14 years. This episode dives into collaborative law, a powerful alternative to traditional ligation, offering a high-powered toolbox for navigating divorce. 

Transcript

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Alright, so we're gonna begin in 3, 2, one. Hi and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Family Log Podcast.

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We're in, we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law divorce.

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I am Ululani Akiona and today I have with me collaborative voice attorney and mediator Leigh Noffsinger.

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Leigh, welcome to the show.

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Thank you. I'm so happy to be here and I'm so happy that you're doing this.

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I mean, this is really one of my big pushes always in collaborative is like, let's talk about things.

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Let's think about how we can do things better. How can we meet clients needs better? So I love that you're providing a forum for that.

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It's wonderful.

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And exactly like 100% like let's meet our clients need better and I can't think of a better service in collaborative divorce.

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Okay.

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So let me to tell you about Lee, Lee has been voted the best lawyer on Bainbridge Island by readers at the Pain Bridge review and she has served as founder, president.

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And a conference chair and committee members of the different collaborative professional organizations in Washington State. She is the former president and board member of the collaborative professionals of Washington.

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Which is our statewide collaborative professional organization. And just before we started, Lee and I were talking about how it's called CPW for short is having their big conference coming up next month then we're both excited to attend to see each other in person.

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Yeah, thanks again.

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So again welcome to the show, Lee. Let's go ahead and get started. So you started your, your family law practice in 2,010.

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What like how did you get started in collaborative divorce so what drew you to collaborative divorce?

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Yeah, it was actually never my plan to even do family law. I didn't take that class in law school.

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Wait, how'd you get into family law?

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I, I was always planning to be a litigation, kind of my whole family. They're all trial attorneys.

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No kidding.

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Oh.

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My dad loves jury trials. It's kind of in my blood and I worked for jury trials. It's kind of in my blood and I worked for a federal judge for a couple of years after law school and and then I had my son and my 6 months of maternity leave after my clerks have ended.

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Kind of evolved to like 7 years of pro bono work and a little bit of contract work but mostly just doing the mom thing which was wonderful.

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And in the course of, you know, just trying to keep my license active and keep my hand in the law practice.

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A little bit, I called our local, we have a, I live on Cambridge Island and we have a community social services agency here called the helpline house and they have a food bank and they have social workers and they have a monthly legal clinic where people can come and get free legal advice.

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Huh?

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Meet with an attorney for, you know, period of time. And I called them and I said, hey, I'd love to volunteer with you guys.

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Yeah.

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What area of the law are people most needing advice in? And without hesitation, they said family law, we need people who can talk to clients about divorce issues, parenting, etc.

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Right.

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Okay.

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And since I didn't know anything about family law, I said, well, let me brush up on that.

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And I signed up for an all day CLE in Seattle on like the basics of family law.

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Oh, yeah.

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And that was, I don't know when that was, 2,007, 8, something like that.

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No kidding.

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And I was sitting in this conference room I think at the convention center and you know just taking notes thinking this was never going to be my area of practice I was getting enough information so that I could be mildly helpful to people who.

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Yeah.

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Couldn't do any better as far as legal advice then, you know, a free half hour with me.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So so I'm sitting in this CLE and it just so happened that Stu Webb who is known as kind of the father of collaborative law.

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Yeah.

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He's a Minnesota attorney who in 1990 kind of came up with this idea that like you know i don't wanna do divorce litigation anymore.

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Right.

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This is super destructive and he was the one who came up with this model and he the way the organizers of the CLE described it was just that he was like in town for some other purpose.

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And so they made half an hour on the day schedule. For him to come and just kind of give a little overview of.

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Wow.

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Of collaborative divorce. And I'd never heard of collaborative divorce and after half an hour of hearing Stu talk about this approach.

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Huh.

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I thought, you know what, if I ever opened my own law practice, That's what I want to do.

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It just really resonated with me even though I had no experience in family law, no real interest in doing.

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Divorce law, just the way that he talked about helping real people with real-world problems in a way that could be supportive and de-escalating of conflict and holistic like it just it really spoke to me.

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I love that de-escalating conflict, especially in family lots, what's needed.

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Yeah, so I came away from that and I and I kind of put the collaborative law idea on the back shelf because I wasn't really actively practicing a lot that time and I did some volunteer.

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We're just advising people with, you know, some pretty terrible. Family law situations as you might imagine.

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Okay.

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At the free legal clinic. And then. Around I guess it was around oh 9 my own marriage Kind of fell apart.

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Oh my.

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And. And so I got a divorce which prompted a couple of things. First off, a need to return to paid work.

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Yeah.

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For just from a practical standpoint, but also kind of a personal experience going through divorce and realizing how big of a life transition that is for people.

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Yeah.

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And how it touches every aspect of our lives, you know, from our parenting and our kids and our retirement plans and where we're going to live and you know our lifestyle and everything.

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So that seed that Stew Web had planted a few years before that, kind of sprouted at that point and I was just really determined I was going to open a few years before that, kind of sprouted at that point and I, was just really determined that I was going to open from from the beginning I never wanted to do any litigation divorce like I and there were a number of people, you

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know, mentors and experienced divorce attorneys who were working in the collaborative field who said you can't do collaborative law if you don't have any experience.

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Doing.

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No kidding. Wait, let me ask you this really quickly. Was your divorce a traditional litigation divorce?

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Okay.

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Oh, I see.

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My divorce was not a litigation divorce and it was also actually not a formal collaborative divorce. My ex husband is a stand up guy who seeks to be fair and balanced and we I didn't know how it would go.

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Yeah.

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He had separate property and resources that he could have used to make it. Really contentious, but instead we went out to dinner one night and he kind of outlined what he felt was fair and we talked about it and.

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That was how it got done. And the worst over dinner.

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Over dinner. Oh my gosh, so you folks didn't use attorneys to kind of do mediation and that you folks did it between yourselves.

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Oh, wow.

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Right.

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We did it between ourselves and and and I think that one thing that I learned from that is that I feel like I was very lucky that we didn't need professional support to talk that and I really credit my ex husband's generosity.

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More than anything like he had really been thoughtful and kind of putting together a proposal that he felt like was really fair to me and there was nothing to fight about.

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Okay.

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But a lot of people aren't in that situation and a lot of people if just left to their own devices need some support and grounding.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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To be able to have a good divorce process and outcome like I did. And, it was really a good divorce process and outcome like I did.

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And, it was really just, I mean, like I said, it wasn't to my credit at all that my divorce wasn't.

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Amazing.

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Ugly, ated, it was just kind of We were lucky enough to be able to work it out and he and I kind of saw eye on what a good outcome would be and did a pretty good job of co parenting our one son together until he was launched.

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He's now 21 and he has a good both both of us and I, I think we did a good job, but.

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Oh my goodness. Okay.

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Yeah.

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Under, you know, the circumstances wouldn't have needed to be very different for that trajectory to have been.

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Yeah.

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Dramatically. Different than my experience was. So anyway, fast forward, I started my own law firm and I.

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Put on my website, you know, collaborative divorce, that's all I do. And I always tried to kind of say, you know, no, this is what I'm doing.

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Okay.

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But when I started practicing, it was not a common thing. People hadn't really heard of collaborative law, even in Seattle.

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Okay.

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It was really just starting. There were a few people who had been around a little bit but so I kind of out of necessity found myself having to take some litigation cases just as I was building my business.

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And I'm glad that I did because it I do have more perspective, I would say, on kind of what the contrast is to how I hope my cases will go.

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Okay.

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And how they'll be different from litigation but but yeah I did have to spend several years doing litigation I had 1 3 year litigation divorce that was just

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I have one now.

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I know, I'm

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Not the same.

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Okay.

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Oh man, it is really tough and I've stayed friends with my client in that case. I mean, we were kind of like BFFs after 3 years together, but I know that He, I know that he and his ex wife like for some reason and he's like one of my favorite clients ever.

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And he tells me that his ex-wife still like won't speak to him, won't go to events that he's gonna be at and it's so sad because

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I was just gonna say that's so sad because they have kids. Yeah. Okay.

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They have 2 kids and the boys are now, adults and they're like, Dad, what why is mom so mad?

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And it is too bad, and especially because I have done so many collaborative divorce cases. That were the facts were so much harder.

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And the and the circumstances were so much more difficult than that case. There is no reason why that could not have been a successful That's the heartbreak for me.

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Okay, so what do you think? What do you think went wrong in that case? In that, okay, if mom is still holding on to things, it just kind of helps me think what type of trauma or fears or insecurity is mom suffering from and could that have been addressed in a collaborative case by a divorce coach?

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As

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Yeah.

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Yeah, well, I think that in a collaborative process, you know, it is, I often say that Collaborative divorce is an approach to family law that brings a really big dose of emotional intelligence, which just isn't really part of a litigation system and it's not even a fault but you know like courts are great at adjudicating conflicts between big corporations and, you know, And they're not good

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Right.

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at Doing with disputes between people who are gonna need to have a continuing relationship after the loss is over.

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So I think that in that case, like so many other cases, I think that the mom could have been very well supported in a collaborative.

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Approach, but sometimes it's hard. To even get. A spouse to like consult with a collaborative attorney.

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So hard. Yeah.

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I mean, usually if I, you know, people ask me all the time, well, I really want to do collaborative law, how do I get my spouse to agree?

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Okay.

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I said, well, you're not. You're yeah, I and it's often you know like when people are going through divorce They're not gonna be effective at convincing the other of anything.

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That's fair.

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Usually. So I usually say, you know, don't don't like Push your spouse.

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Too hard to do collaborative, just ask them like, hey, the process that we choose for our divorce is going to have a big impact.

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Will you just have a consultation with a collaborative divorce attorney before you make the decision on what process you want.

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In my experience, usually If a potential client sits down with a good experienced collaborative, collaborative divorce attorney.

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Okay. Yeah.

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Usually by the end of that consultation, that's the process that the client wants because Most clients want a process where there's gonna be, you know, minimal if any collateral damage and where they're gonna have professionals who can help de-escalate conflict but also resolve conflict.

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Like we don't avoid conflict in our cases, you know, collaborative law is a high powered conflict resolution process.

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I love that high powered collaborative law is a high power conflict resolution process. I love that.

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Yeah.

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We have so many tools to work with in a collaborative case, right? In litigation, you don't have a lot of tools, you know, you can write an offer letter.

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Or counter offer, you can make discovery demands, you can schedule motions, but you know, like the biggest tool that you have is kind of the looming threat of a judge ultimately making a decision and you lose total control over the outcome of your case, right?

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Yeah.

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But it's not like a whole toolbox of, you know, hey, we've got great.

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Mental health professionals who can serve as a divorce coach to help you process what this life transition is bringing up for you.

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We've got, you know, financial analyst who can be a neutral and just gathering the information about your financial situation.

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Yes.

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We've got lawyers who are trained not in writing beliefs, although we've all probably had training in that, but who are more focused on you know, taking classes like Pauling Tesler psychology of money class or, you know, conflict resolution mediation classes about how to kind of like hold the energy in the room and make sure that there's a level playing field and the spouse who has usually kind of gone along to

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Great.

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get along, still gets a voice at the table, make sure, you know, like we're too into all of those things.

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And work hard to use whatever tools are most appropriate. For the case.

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Oh, and what about the other tool about the child coach? Can you speak about that?

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Yeah, I I occasionally will have in the collaborative context we call this person a child specialist.

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And it's again a licensed master's level or higher mental health professional with expertise. Mental health professional with expertise in working with kids.

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So sometimes they have.

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History of doing therapy with kids or you know parent education like they really understand. Kids needs, you know, developmentally.

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Age specific kind of through a divorce after divorce, co parenting best practices, but Sometimes in cases.

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Parents really want to bring their children's voices to the table, especially when it comes to things like the parenting plan.

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And one thing that I have seen all the time and I'm I'm now in a blended family.

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I got remarried. My son and I merged households with my now husband of 10 years.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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And his 3 kids. And so between us, you know, we've we raised these 4 kids, all 4 with divorced parents and Certainly in my personal experience and my professional experience, I know that kids will say totally different things.

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Right.

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To parents who are separated. And sometimes even to parents who are happily married like teenagers or kind of experts at that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But, but so, you know, there's so many cases where, you know, mom will come to a meeting and say, well, the kids are saying that they are only comfortable at my house and they only want to live with me and You know, this has to be reflected in the parenting plan and then dad says.

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This is perplexing to me when the kids are with me, they ask why they don't have more time with me and you know when are we gonna switch to a different schedule and

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So you're talking about this is at the 4 way meeting with the 2 collaborative attorneys. And then the husband and wife.

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So this is what's coming out. Okay.

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Yeah, this will come out at meetings where parents are like, you know, look, that I should get what I want in the parenting plan because my kids are saying.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's what they want and kids. We know, well, I mean, they're hardwired to want to stay connected to both of their parents.

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Right.

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They want to please parents. And so having this child specialist who we can bring in, you know, we've got a few great child specialists in this region who are great at establishing quick rapport with kids and just sitting down.

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Being like, hey, let's talk about the divorce and what's working. And what's not working for you.

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Okay.

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And then we can have a neutral. Who can bring the kids voice to the table in a way that isn't filtered through one of the parents who might have other reasons for wanting what they want in a parenting plan.

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So.

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Right. So to recap then just for the listeners out there from what I'm hearing you say is that if you're in a situation where, you know, mom is hearing for the kids, you know, I want to be with mom and dad's like, well, the kids are saying they need to spend time more time with me, then maybe that's the time to bring in a child specialist.

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So the child specialist can talk to the kids and figure out, hey, what do you guys? Really want here.

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Yeah, but I am quick to add that.

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Okay.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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People ask me, well, at what age do kids get to choose where they live? And the answer is when they are not children.

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And there you think.

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And they are 18. So I think one of the things that's really important for clients to know and understand is that kids will say.

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Alright.

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Conflicting things to parents. As they're going through a divorce. And so assuming that. Your kid is, you know, saying exactly the same thing to both parents is not usually how it's going.

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So. You know sometimes it's not a matter of like oh let's hurry and bring in another paid professional to interview the child and you know get these parents to see what's really happening.

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Sometimes it's just about educating the parents. That, you know, hey, this is something that happens in divorce.

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And that's where a great co parenting coach, you know, We don't necessarily need to have someone interviewing the kids and bringing back a report if the parents are open to, you know, really being coached by the co-parenting coach who we use in our process about best practices for how to construct a parenting plan that meets kids developmental needs and I really worry sometimes about the way that we in this generation

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of parenting. It seems like kids voices. Are too often considered equally to parents voices like, oh, well, I don't wanna force my child to go to the other parents house because they just don't want to do that today.

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And you know, it's like, well, if your child said, I don't really want to go to school today.

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Okay. Yeah.

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That just doesn't sound super good. I'm comfy at home in my bed, you know, like, like there are times when it's like, well, you know, surely you would say to your child, hey, sorry, you have to go to school.

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But I hear this so often from parents where it's like, well, I don't want to force my kids to go to the other parents house and like it is critical that kids maintain a relationship with both parents.

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So that's again where another aspect of our process having that co parenting coach who's a great resource to just really helping parents understand that their kids are kind of going through a transition themselves right now and hear some of the behaviors that we see.

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Yeah.

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And one of them is they're going to say different things to each of you.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:56.000

And now couldn't be the couldn't that divorce coach also play that co parenting coach role as well?

00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.000

Okay.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:22.000

Yeah, so I kind of use the terms interchangeably. So. In a the way that in Washington a collaborative case is actually structured is that each client has their own attorney who's trained in collaborative law, a trained mediator, and then there's one mental health professional who can serve in the role of co-parenting coach helping parents to kind of have the conversations to draft a parenting

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000

Right.

00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:34.000

plan. Oftentimes they're super helpful even in cases where there aren't minor children because a lot of emotions come up.

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:35.000

Right.

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.000

Around divorce and just the uncoupling process that if there's no space for people to

00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:53.000

Kind of work through those. As part of their divorce process, sometimes that will blow up at the end and then.

00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:54.000

Yeah.

00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:59.000

People don't wanna sign final documents or, you know, they wanna prolong it because they're feeling like, you know, it's not yet resolved.

00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:08.000

So that mental health professional can serve in a number of different roles, but is a really critical support for.

00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:11.000

Clients going through a divorce.

00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:22.000

Fantastic. And can you kind of speak to the differences when you because you mentioned that you're doing family law divorce litigation for a couple of years or so.

00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:32.000

Can you can you speak to the differences that you saw? That between divorce litigation and your experience with collaborative divorce.

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:45.000

Yeah, well, I think that, There's so many kind of foundational. Pieces but a few that really Come to mind, like.

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:54.000

Even in my litigation cases, if I was writing an offer letter, I would try to take a tone that wasn't.

00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:01.000

So much like well your client is obligated to this and my client is entitled to that and you know your client shouldn't have done this or should do that.

00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:14.000

I would really try to draft my letters in a way. That was like, hey, you know, here's a possible outcome that could really serve this family well.

00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:21.000

And, you know, this could meet your clients needs for, you know, XYZ, which I'm hearing is important and it can meet my clients.

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:28.000

Oh.

00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:29.000

Yeah.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:33.000

And I once had a litigator friend and mentor. Who I admire a lot, but he was he was a litigation.

00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:41.000

He was kind of an old school litigation. He was very good. He was very experienced and he said, why are you writing me this letter?

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:50.000

Like, I don't. You shouldn't care about what is best for my client and I certainly don't care about what's best for your client like And I was like.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.000

Wow.

00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:20.000

Wow, really? He's like, look. I said, I'm not saying that like as a human being, I don't care about these people, but my job, I am hired by my client to get the most for my client.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:21.000

Yeah.

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.000

I am my client's advocate. I don't care what your client gets and I was just like Wow, well that's a pretty stark explanation of how the lawyers job description is really different.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:38.000

In litigation, right? And And I don't at all mean to sound like litigators. Never want an outcome that's good for both parties.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:38:00.000

Of course, you know, people who go into family law are not like cold hearted people who are just trying to get, you know, an extra buck for their client or an extra hour of parenting time.

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.000

Yeah.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:09.000

But the system that litigation is rooted in is an adversarial system design. And so that does kind of require lawyers to be like, you know, one on this side and one on this side.

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:17.000

So. That was definitely. An interesting anecdote that I think about a lot.

00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:19.000

Another thing that that

00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:39.000

Great, so how did you 2 were in that case though? Just.

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Okay.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:43.000

Oh, he was, you know, he was very good. Negotiator and he I appreciated that he really believed in the lawyers working together to like kind of go back and forth between the clients kind of as the clients mouthpieces and you know cobble together a deal that we could.

00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:47.000

Kind of lean on our clients to accept. So

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:55.000

Under the threat of if you don't accept it, you're gonna have to go to court and the judge will decide.

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:56.000

Correct

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:16.000

Right. I mean, that's always the underlying threat, right? The other thing that that always struck me about my litigation cases and again there were some exceptions to this but In general, if I had a litigation case and there were communications between me and the other attorney, they were very nice.

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:26.000

It didn't feel good. I remember once asking. An opposing counsel in a dedicated case. It's like, are you mad at me?

00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:33.000

Like what? Why are you talking to me like that? You know, like we're not getting a divorce.

00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:38.000

Alright, attacking me. I know.

00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.000

Right.

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:46.000

Why can't we just be the professional here and you know try to problem solve this. I have a I have a good friend who's also a collaborative attorney in the Seattle area and I love what she says.

00:39:46.000 --> 00:40:05.000

She says she also did years of litigation and she says, you know, I love doing collaborative law because I feel like I can be the same person at work.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:06.000

Yeah.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:11.000

That I am in my personal life. I don't have to like put on this mask where I'm like, okay, now I'm going to war and I'm going to talk in a certain way and I'm gonna really direct like she said you know I can be the same person.

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:22.000

Whether I'm talking with friends or talking with colleagues trying to work through a case or talking to clients or talking to my client or my client spouse like.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:31.000

I can be a warm compassionate caring. Professional who is here to help. And I really appreciate that.

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:51.000

Yeah. And in terms of in terms of collaborative law, Can you speak to what what are some ways of the process can be tailored to me people where they are?

00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:52.000

Oh, okay.

00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:57.000

Yeah, this is. This is kind of a hot topic for me. And I will just say that.

00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:14.000

I think it's a little political, some of my ideas about this are not necessarily well received by other.

00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:15.000

Okay.

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:27.000

Professionals and that's okay. Like thick skinned I can deal with that but one of the reasons that I and the way that you and I met was you came to the training that I did.

00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:33.000

Yes.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.000

Yeah.

00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:54.000

Back in when was that December of 2022. And we did a 2 day basic collaborative law training and the biggest reason that I wanted to do that is I, I feel like I have really battled ever since I started doing collaborative law.

00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:55.000

Oh.

00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:09.000

This idea that like This is what a collaborative case. Should be. And I. From early on people who I would meet in Seattle who are practicing collaborative law I would kind of describe cases that we had over here in Kitsap County and we're a much smaller county than King County.

00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:15.000

We currently have for experienced collaborative divorce attorneys in the whole county. On Benbridge Island. That includes me.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.000

Only does that include you, Lee? Okay.

00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:31.000

On Vainbridge Island where I live, there are 2 of us. And we don't have experienced collaborative divorce coaches here.

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:44.000

We don't have experienced financial analysts over here and Because we also have a very different kind of pool of clients here, like.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:43:00.000

I don't know how to describe it except that there is kind of a different level of tolerance for fees over here like I'm Vainbridge Island, there are some very wealthy high net worth.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:01.000

Okay.

00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:20.000

People and They still, you know, they're driving like rusted out Subaru's and they track their money very carefully and they don't want to spend money on on process if they don't really understand why it's helpful and necessary.

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:31.000

And so as a result of kind of all of these factors being in a smaller community, not having a, you know, pool of these.

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:32.000

Okay.

00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:37.000

Collateral professionals to support our cases. We've really had to

00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:38.000

Scaled in.

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:48.000

Per breath. Well, we've had to figure out ways to still meet clients needs and and it's worked well.

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:55.000

Like we, you know, I I haven't counted recently how many collaborative cases I've had.

00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:58.000

I don't know a couple 100 maybe. I've had very, very few cases terminate.

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:12.000

I mean, I, I think 5% maybe. Most of those for very good reasons, but

00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:16.000

When you see Terminate, can you explain to the listener what does that mean?

00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:29.000

Yeah, so in a, in a collaborative divorce process. Everyone at the beginning of the case signs a collaborative law participation agreement that kind of lays out the ground rules for, you know, this is the process that we're doing.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:45.000

These are, you know, kind of how we're gonna exchange information and what our expectations are of clients and and it's all reflected in Washington has a state collaborative law act.

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000

So it's all codified here in Washington and when a case can't be resolved within a collaborative.

00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000

Process. And like I said, in my experience, it's very, very few cases, but if it, if it can't be resolved and the process has to terminate, that's a very meaningful thing.

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:25.000

Because the lawyers both have to withdraw. And so clients don't want to do that. They're gonna have to start over with new lawyers, you know, generally any work product from the collaborative process, they can't just shift and take into litigation.

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:40.000

It's a big deal. If a case gets terminated and clients have to kind of go back to the drawing board and start from scratch.

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:41.000

Yeah.

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:45.000

So I guess back to what I was saying, you know, we were kind of finding that even though we were doing these cases.

00:45:45.000 --> 00:46:05.000

In our smaller county and they weren't exactly like. Cases that we heard about happening in Seattle where you know every meeting was you know both lawyers and the divorce co parenting coach and the financial analyst and the 2 clients sitting around the table.

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:06.000

Okay.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:13.000

So you've got 4 paid professionals billing by the hour. And, you know, we didn't.

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:18.000

Frankly, have the luxury of doing that. Because we didn't have those people in our small county.

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:30.000

So we've adapted and adjusted and we've successfully resolved lots and lots and lots of cases and many of them have been really challenging with mental illness concerns, addictions.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:37.000

Hmm. Wow.

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000

Okay. Wow.

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.000

We've had cases where there's been a history of domestic violence. We've had cases where there have been obligations of child abuse and and we've handled these within a collaborative process that isn't even this textbook like all hands on deck.

00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:10.000

We've got 4 paid professionals and every 2 h meeting is gonna cost thousands of dollars. Because the other thing is we don't have people over here who are super excited to pay those thousands of dollars.

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000

Hmm. Right.

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:18.000

I have lots of clients over here who are middle class people. And I believe that those people deserve to have a collaborative divorce process as much as the Microsoft families who have, you know, several 1 million dollars or more.

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:19.000

Right.

00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:24.000

Bye. I've struggled with this idea that there's this, you know, there's like the best approach to collaborative where we've got all 4 of these professionals.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:36.000

Very involved. At every step of the way and of course there are cases that absolutely need and warrant that.

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:37.000

Right, right.

00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:54.000

But there are also ways that lawyers can step up their skills in some areas that maybe the divorce coach would handle if You had the luxury of having a divorce coach in every meeting or you had clients who could afford to pay to have a divorce coach in every meeting.

00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:07.000

So I've just really become a strong advocate of like if we really want collaborative divorce.

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:11.000

Yeah.

00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:12.000

Which it should be.

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:17.000

To grow and to become more of the norm for divorcing couples. Which it should be. I think anyone who really understands this approach.

00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:27.000

And believes in it. Thinks that this should be the norm. Like court should be for those crazy outlier cases, right?

00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:28.000

But

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:37.000

Or should be the last resort, right? Should be the first go to which is what it is the first go to is let's get a chord and file a motion for temporary orders and let's be the first one to file for temporary orders.

00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.000

So we make sure we get what we want. Yeah.

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:46.000

Yeah. Yeah, but I think the problem is If we want collaborative to be the first go to.

00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:51.000

Yeah. Hmm.

00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:52.000

Alright. Yeah.

00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:56.000

It has to be accessible. Financially to a wide range of people. And there are different ways to approach that.

00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:09.000

You know, we could do more low bow, no cases where we're not charging our full fees.

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:10.000

Yeah.

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.000

We could do scale back teams where we don't have coaches and financial analysts at every single meeting because the lawyers have done extra training.

00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:22.000

How to manage the emotions in the room. And you know, like if you're a divorce attorney, those are skills that arguably you should try to build anyway.

00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:23.000

Right.

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:31.000

There's just, you know, in a 2 h meeting, there's not the bandwidth for for professionals to even be talking.

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:45.000

That much, right? Like we're, it's just, it's a lot of, I just think that we have to be as efficient as we can.

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.000

Yeah.

00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:53.000

With our process with the professionals who are billing by the hour with how we're going about structuring meetings.

00:49:53.000 --> 00:50:03.000

Structuring the professional team because I just, I think that if. Collaborative develops a reputation for being this bloated process.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:11.000

Wow. Yeah.

00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:12.000

No, right.

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.000

That's very expensive where the clients are saying why is you know why is this person at the meeting they didn't even say anything or You know, I did it I did a training.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:16.000

Okay.

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:22.000

In in Florida last year and their norm is that they have all 4 professionals. Attend every single meeting with the clients.

00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:32.000

So if it's a parenting meeting Now the way we do our parenting meetings is the lawyers don't go to those.

00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:37.000

Even though like, yeah, it'd be great to sit in on that. I'd have more understanding of the newances and all of that.

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:47.000

But that's where like, I, I don't want a bill for time to sit on the parenting meeting when I have a very experienced professional mental health.

00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:55.000

Person who has a higher level of training and expertise than I do who is perfectly skilled at navigating that conversation with clients.

00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:06.000

I don't need to be there and I wouldn't feel right billing for that time. So in Florida they have both lawyers and the mental health professional and the coach.

00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:11.000

At every meeting so if there's a parenting meeting All 4 of those professionals are there billing.

00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:24.000

If there's a financial meeting, all 4 of those professionals are their billing. If there's a legal meeting, all 4 of the professionals are their billing.

00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.000

Right.

00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:28.000

I, I certainly wouldn't. Yeah.

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:34.000

That is a very expensive process that Most of us wouldn't want to pay for, right? So I'm just, and you know, I've.

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:44.000

Been told since I first started doing collaborative law up until A week ago that I'm not following the best practices.

00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:50.000

For doing collaborative cases and

00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:51.000

You're a rebel!

00:51:51.000 --> 00:52:00.000

You know, well, I mean, I don't know, but you know, like I said, I think I've had over 200 cases, very few less than 5% of terminated.

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:07.000

My fees are usually between 8 and $13,000. Which is a lot of money for anyone who's listening is like, oh my gosh, is that low?

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:14.000

But you know, I mean, I hear about these.

00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:25.000

It is low and I'll tell you this it is along your tradition. Oh my gosh like I I can do a petition and temporary orders and the clients at $12,000 because it's so contested.

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:26.000

Yeah.

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:33.000

So you're saying 8 to $13,000 from start to finish and their divorce is finalized.

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:34.000

Okay, that's That's cheap. Yeah.

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:46.000

Yes. Of course, of course they're outliers. I mean, I. I have some cases where they give me a $6,000 fee deposit and they're getting some money back at the end.

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.000

That's crazy, Lee.

00:52:47.000 --> 00:53:01.000

I do have a few cases. We're so streamlined and. You know, like I do have those cases and I have cases that are $20,000 because I have a very emotional client who needs a lot of education and meets things repeated a lot.

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000

Right.

00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:12.000

There's nothing wrong with that. And if people can afford to pay for that level of. High touch service, that's one way that collaborative can be scaled up.

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:18.000

Yeah.

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.000

And support it, right?

00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:24.000

And we can have. Coaches at every meeting if that helps people to feel more secure. We can have a financial analyst who goes through all the tax returns.

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:46.000

We can also, as female attorneys with experience, work together to do our own spreadsheet. If it's a simple case with young clients who have a couple of checking accounts and they each have a car, you know, like That case doesn't need a financial analyst and those clients, at least in my county, can't afford to pay for one.

00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000

So.

00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:58.000

No, yeah, you're, you're seeing that there is a not to interrupt you, but, another turning and I hear it's in Hamish County did a financial divorce case and you know I'm sorry to collaborate a divorce case right?

00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:13.000

Over couple retired retirement savings and here I'm thinking we need the financial neutral. We need the financial neutral and the other attorney collaborative divorce attorney was like I don't think we do and she was kind of advocating how you're doing like let's be streamlined.

00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:20.000

Let's be efficient and essentially what we did is she created and asked an index spreadsheet.

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:28.000

We did a meeting with, you know, myself, my client, the husband, her client the wife, and we went through the asset and that spreadsheet.

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:29.000

Yeah.

00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:35.000

We just went through all the values. And it was so, and we sealed it without a financial neutral.

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:36.000

Or divorce coach.

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:51.000

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's wonderful. And I think that Like I would rather air on the side of.

00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:52.000

Alright.

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:56.000

Let's start streamlined. If there are reasons to right, I mean, believe me, I've got cases where I know from the get go, these folks need a coach and they need a financial analyst.

00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:57.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:05.000

And I'm not at all one who doesn't greatly value those. Professionals in our community.

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:14.000

But the beauty of having this approach where we have 3 professions represented. Is that we can divide and conquer.

00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:27.000

We can split up the tasks that need to be handled so that the person who's most appropriate to do those tasks is the one who's billing for the time.

00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:28.000

Right.

00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:39.000

Not all of us on every task, on every meeting, every conversation. I mean, that's like I said, even high net worth clients in Seattle, of which I have had many, I'm about half my practice now is in Seattle and half over here.

00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000

Wow. Good. Good morning.

00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:55.000

And even high net worth high income clients. Don't want to pay. For more process than they feel they need.

00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:56.000

Okay.

00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:01.000

So it's not just a matter of like, can they afford it? It's like. Can they afford it and do they need it?

00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:30.000

And can we help them understand? Why they need it if they do because I just you know I've heard so many stories from people who, you know, just neighbors on Bambridge Island, people who went to Seattle and hired collaborative divorce attorneys and will say, you know, gosh, it was just, it was so expensive.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.000

Oh no.

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:39.000

We, there were so many meetings I didn't understand like why we were having like our ninth meeting or you know why there were you know all these professionals at meetings and it seems like you know the issues were pretty straightforward or So again, I'm not always the popular voice in the room.

00:56:39.000 --> 00:57:04.000

But I just think. At this point in my career and my life, my priority is I want to be a good advocate for this process that I'm passionate about and for clients needs and part of being an advocate for my clients.

00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:21.000

Is being careful with their money. And giving them good financial counsel. Which doesn't always mean a full team at every single meeting and a full process that goes on and on and on.

00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:29.000

I tell clients all the time, like this is a time limited process. We're gonna have 4 or 5 meetings, maybe 6.

00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:36.000

If we're getting to 6 meetings and we're not effectively done, something's not working and we need to look at some other options.

00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:52.000

But if you set those expectations early on, like, hey, this is, we're not gonna keep having meetings just because one spouse is hemming and hying or doesn't want to commit or doesn't want the divorce or wants to keep talking over and over and over about things.

00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:53.000

Yeah.

00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:59.000

I had a meeting yesterday in the case where you know one spouse doesn't want the divorce.

00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:03.000

Okay.

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:09.000

It's doing everything possible to kind of keep a connection with the spouse. To have some influence and control over the spouse.

00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:17.000

And it came to be clear that to me that like we couldn't enable that by just being like, okay, well, it's not resolved.

00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:31.000

Let's schedule another meeting. You know, that was disadvantaging one client while the other client was.

00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:32.000

Okay.

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:39.000

Getting what he wanted by keeping, you know, the connection, keeping a conversation going with this person who He didn't want to be separated from.

00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.000

Anyway.

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:44.000

Yeah. So what what what did you resolve in that situation?

00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:58.000

Well, there are definitely times. Not infrequently where. I will say to clients and hopefully this is with the buy in of the other professionals on the case.

00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:08.000

But, you know, if I'm working with a lawyer who I've had a lot of experience with and we can both kind of agree that we see the dynamic that's going on.

00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:09.000

Yeah.

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:17.000

We'll say to clients like, okay, we're gonna schedule one more meeting and you know, here's a very tight agenda.

00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:25.000

Agreed on at that meeting and we're available to help you gather whatever information you might need, make those decisions.

00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:31.000

We're here to meet with you beforehand to prepare for that meeting, but that that's our last meeting in this process.

00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:32.000

Okay.

00:59:32.000 --> 01:00:02.000

I say that. Not infrequently and sometimes that's the wake up call the clients need you know, and I'll say, I don't feel good sending you my bill when I feel like we just had another expensive meeting and people weren't serious.

01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:55.000

Okay.

01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:56.000

Yeah.

01:00:56.000 --> 01:01:01.000

With more of a settlement conference style. Mediator like you would use in a litigation case. And if we can pivot to that and say, okay, this is kind of the last best hope.

01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:03.000

Oh, okay.

01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000

Let's give that a try before like, you know, we really don't want to terminate cases mostly because it doesn't serve clients.

01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:11.000

And you know. Okay.

01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:29.000

But it also doesn't serve clients. To let them keep going in a collaborative process. Thinking that they can.

01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:37.000

Okay.

01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:38.000

Oh, that's true. Right.

01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:45.000

Use the process for. You know, so they know they get to see their X, you know, every couple of weeks at these meetings or, you know, for whatever reason, or sometimes, you know, you're the spouse who like is being served by the financial status quo and you don't really want to wrap things up and pivot to like, oh, now I'm, you know.

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:46.000

Yeah.

01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:47.000

My life's gonna be changing, but I, this is kind of the drum I'm beating right now.

01:01:47.000 --> 01:02:00.000

It's just like we have to be efficient and we have to help clients understand that This is an efficient process.

01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:01.000

Yes, yes.

01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:11.000

And it's and we're gonna use the professionals in the in their highest and best roles and we're not going to have excess.

01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:16.000

Anything to the degree that we can tailor our cases to the clients.

01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:28.000

Yeah, I see. In that case where you've got one party who doesn't want to lose a connection, is that does that party, have a divorce coach to kind of help them process.

01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:31.000

That separation.

01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:41.000

We've had a divorce coach on that case who's met. Many times with. The parents, they've worked out a parenting plan.

01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:47.000

And again, it's, you know, the same clients like, well, we need more meetings with the coach.

01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:51.000

And the other spouse is like, we don't, we've got an agreed parenting plan.

01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.000

Oh, okay.

01:02:52.000 --> 01:03:06.000

We've had opportunities. You know, I think we have a professional duty to clients to say. Look, this is a good opportunity for you to go get some therapy for yourself.

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:07.000

Yeah, yeah.

01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:20.000

Have a therapist who's your advocate who's your sounding board. This process isn't intended to be this never ending, you know, support.

01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:21.000

They're cut it right. Yeah.

01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:24.000

Like our process is. Help you through a divorce process and it's time limited and it's efficient.

01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000

Yeah.

01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:34.000

And we've got professionals from 3 different disciplines who we can pull in to help you in the ways that you need to be helped.

01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:39.000

But we don't have to use all of those people. It's not a one size fits all.

01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:44.000

You know you were you were talking about, yeah, it's a not one size fits all approach.

01:03:44.000 --> 01:04:00.000

I think you just summarize it perfectly. In that case you were talking, I loved how you spoke to the fact that you know you've used successfully resolved in collaborative divorce cases cases that involves substance abuse mental health issues child abuse, domestic violence.

01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:11.000

In those cases, were you utilizing then the help of the divorce parenting coach? And the child specialists or is it just between the attorneys?

01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:12.000

Okay.

01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:17.000

No, absolutely. And cases like that, you know, I am.

01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:24.000

I am admittedly reluctant to require a client to hire professionals who they don't want to hire, right?

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:36.000

So if both clients were saying we are in agreement that we don't want to have a financial analyst go through our finances.

01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:37.000

Yeah.

01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:45.000

We both have transparency into all of our accounts. We still trust each other. We've created our own spreadsheet.

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:46.000

Right.

01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:50.000

I'm not going to say, well, you have to have a financial analyst or we're not going to say it's a collaborative case.

01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:55.000

In the same way, I think that,

01:04:55.000 --> 01:05:04.000

It's if there are cases where, cause some clients don't know, right? They don't know.

01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:16.000

They're gonna benefit from a financial analyst or not. So if there if there's a case where they say look We trust each other, we've got our own shared spreadsheet, then I'll say yeah, sounds like you probably don't need a financial analyst.

01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:17.000

Right.

01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:27.000

If I've got a case where my client saying I don't want a financial analyst because I have a degree in finance and I've managed all of our household finances.

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:39.000

Yeah.

01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:40.000

Okay.

01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:44.000

I don't want to pay that. Person. If the other spouse is saying, but I don't, I haven't been managing the family finances and I do want that neutral, then I'm absolutely telling my client, look, you've got to agree to this because you and your spouse have different needs for information, for reassurance, and this is a case where I am going to push on you to bring

01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:53.000

Yeah.

01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:54.000

Yeah Yeah.

01:05:54.000 --> 01:06:17.000

this professional onto our team because it's gonna help your case go more efficiently. Right. So again, to me, that is that should always be the bottom line question is what is gonna best support this case and being efficient and cost-effective for these real people who are dividing their assets and You know, nobody has a savings account that I've met yet set aside for divorce fees.

01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:22.000

Right.

01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:23.000

Oh, that's amazing.

01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:28.000

Although I did hear you can buy an insurance policy for that. You could like at the time of marriage, you can like, you know, buy divorce insurance.

01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:31.000

It'll cover all.

01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:32.000

I haven't.

01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:51.000

Wow. Wow. So is it sounds like then you're definitely saying in those types of cases where you're dealing with parenting plan and substance abuse and domestic violence issues, you are encouraging the parties of both attorneys to say, yes, let's work with the divorce coach to kind of work this out and help create a parenting plan that addresses these types of concerns.

01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:52.000

2. Yeah.

01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000

Absolutely. And there are cases too where I'll say to a client like, look, I totally respect.

01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:09.000

Your decision about not wanting to have whatever a divorce coach, but I'm not comfortable representing you in a process if you won't agree to have that support for your case.

01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:13.000

Yeah, yeah.

01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:14.000

Right.

01:07:14.000 --> 01:07:21.000

Because of you know a history of domestic violence or because of the dynamic between you and your spouse or because of you know allegations of substance abuse or whatever.

01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:28.000

So I mean that is every professionals prerogative, right? If your professional is like, I'm not comfortable representing this client unless I have this support and these other areas.

01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:51.000

Finance and mental health. I think that's good self-awareness and I think all of us attorneys doing divorce law would serve our clients by beefing up our skills doing divorce log would serve our clients by beefing up our skills in the holistic ways that clients need support from their

01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:56.000

Yeah, for sure, definitely. Like, again, just from where I'm hear you saying, it's just.

01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:01.000

It's not this, you know, there's best practices of collaborative law, but the same time.

01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:12.000

It's not one size fits all and let's as attorneys have the self awareness. Of what professionals can best meet our clients needs where they're at.

01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:13.000

Yeah.

01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:20.000

Right this moment without having to bring in the whole entire team just because this is what you do in a cloud of divorce.

01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:21.000

Wow. Yeah.

01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:29.000

Right, right. And one is not better than, right? Like it's not, there is not.

01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:30.000

Right.

01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:34.000

A right approach. The right approach is what is best serving the clients and sometimes that is a full meeting with all 4 professionals.

01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:48.000

And sometimes that is 2 lawyers in a room who can handle the occasional emotional outburst who can put together a basic spreadsheet of assets and debts.

01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:57.000

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, thank you. Thank you, Lee, for coming on today and just sharing your thoughts about collaborative law and talking about how the process can be scaled up or scaled down.

01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:05.000

Meet people where there are. So powerful.

01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:19.000

Well, thanks. Well, it's, it's been a pleasure talking with you.

01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:20.000

Yeah.

01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:24.000

I start talking too much when I get on this topic, but I am passionate about providing this option for people going divorce and we've got to make it accessible for as many people.

01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:29.000

As we can. That's how it will be a sustainable. Practice for all of us.

01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:43.000

I love that. I think that's par for, right there. . You know, be what okay, look before you before I let you go though, what is one thing that someone wouldn't know about you just by looking at you.

01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:44.000

Hmm.

01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:47.000

A fun fact, if you will.

01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:57.000

I once, co-hosted NPRs morning edition with Bob Edwards. Who just died this week.

01:09:57.000 --> 01:09:58.000

Okay.

01:09:58.000 --> 01:10:05.000

Actually, we weren't in the same room. He was in DC and I was in a tiny little radio studio in Southeast Alaska.

01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:10.000

So he doesn't know that I co hosted with him, but I was the local host. He was the national host.

01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:16.000

Hey, what is, what is that show? Morning admissions? What is that?

01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:17.000

Oh.

01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:19.000

Oh no, morning edition on NPR. Yeah.

01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:23.000

Wow! Oh, okay. No kidding.

01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:26.000

I was I was a journalist in a former life.

01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:31.000

You, oh my gosh, you were a journalist in a formal life? I never would have guessed that.

01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:36.000

And now journalists are like a dying breed, which is sad, but.

01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:37.000

Yeah, I never would have guessed that. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. It was funny.

01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:47.000

That's I was, I was thinking of going into journalism in college by end up being an English major.

01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:48.000

Oh, nice.

01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.000

But yeah, secretly had dreams of, you know, becoming a journalist too. That's just amazing.

01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:54.000

Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:54.000 --> 01:11:03.000

That's so cool. And Lee, how can people get in touch with you to use your services as a collaborative divorce in collaborative divorce or as a mediator.

01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:09.000

Oh, that's so generous of you. My website's not singer family law.

01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:10.000

Dot com.

01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:16.000

And, SING ER.

01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:17.000

Yes.

01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:25.000

You know, folks, also, we're, gonna have L's and information posted on the, our AKE on a LEASE and, information posted on the, our key on a law website when we pulse this podcast. We're gonna have our information there too.

01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:38.000

So again, Lee, thank you so much. For sharing your thoughts about collaborative divorce and how it's not a one size fits all approach.

01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:44.000

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for providing this great service to our community. I really appreciate you.

01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:58.000

Yeah, it's my pleasure. And to my listeners, out there again, thank you for listening to another episode of the Ocunal Law Podcast when we talk about in, thank you for listening to another episode of the Okuna Law Podcast.

01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:03.000

And again, thank you for listening to another episode of the Okuna Law Podcast, where we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law divorce.

01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:07.000

Until next time, I am Lulani

01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:10.000

Okay, and podcast. Thank you so much, Lee.

01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:12.000

Yeah, I'm sorry I talked too much.

01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:20.000

No, that was great. I mean, I was just fascinated and captivated and man, you're such a good speaker.

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:21.000

Hmm. I don't know.

01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:26.000

I forget, you're such a good speaker. Maybe it's part of your journalism NPR background.

01:12:26.000 --> 01:12:27.000

Yeah.

01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:40.000

I don't know. But, man, I just, I just loved your message about just meeting clients where they are and why does it have to be this way just because of this?

01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:41.000

Yeah.

01:12:41.000 --> 01:12:47.000

Let's be efficient with their clients money. That's how we can be of service. And how can we make collaborative divorce the, you know, the go to if we're, if it costs too much.

01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:54.000

Right. And if it, you know, if a typical King County collaborative case is costing $50,000.

01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.000

We've just weeded out a whole lot of people. Okay.

01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:05.000

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I want those middle middle income people to do collaborative divorce.

01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:12.000

Yeah, yeah, that's how we change the narrative about what divorce is and what it. Doesn't have to be.

01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:18.000

I love that. I love that. I'm all with you on that. That would be my mission too.

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:19.000

Huh.

01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:25.000

Okay. Yeah, well, we should do a case together one of these days. That'd be so fun.

01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:26.000

I'll come just now.

01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:31.000

Yeah, no, I'm hoping to. We will. Huh?

01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:32.000

Well, we might have to come in here or we go to your meeting place in Seattle, right? You have a, yeah.

01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:43.000

I'll come to Sure. Although I didn't even touch on this, but I am also passionate about Not Zoom.

01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:44.000

Yeah.

01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:50.000

Like the in person meetings or. So much more effective.

01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:57.000

Well, I'm putting out the universe. We will do a collaborative divorce case and we will meet in person in Seattle.

01:13:57.000 --> 01:13:58.000

Okay.

01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:00.000

That would be great. Love that. If not, let's have lunch or something.

01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:02.000

Oh my gosh, I would love that. Okay.

01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.000

Yeah, yeah, just I'll try to not be as difficult as schedule.

01:14:07.000 --> 01:14:21.000

Yeah, no, thank you so much. I'm so glad we got you here today. Thank you so much for being a service and spurting the word about collaborative wars because you know I too want to like get it out and have it be accessible to everyone.

01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:23.000

So thank you for your time in this.

01:14:23.000 --> 01:14:27.000

Alright