The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Gwen Mathewson

In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks to collaborative divorce attorney and mediator, Gwen Mathewson. Gwen is a past president of King County Collaborative Law and member of Collaborative Professionals of Washington. She is also a member of the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals and she recently completed a yearlong leadership academy with them. Lani and Gwen discuss Collaborative Divorce, a process built on compromise and creativity to help you heal and move forward. They explore the power of compromise, emotional relief, and healing for the future. 

Transcript

00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:27.000

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast. I am Collaborative divorce attorney, mediator, family law, lawyer, And in this podcast, we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family, law, and divorce.

00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:33.000

And today I have with me collaborative divorce attorney and meteor Gwent Matheson.

00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:42.000

So Gwen practices in King and Jefferson counties here in Washington. She is a past president of King County Collaborative Law.

00:01:42.000 --> 00:02:02.000

She is a member of Collaborate Professionals of Washington. She is also a member of the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals and she recently completed a year-long leadership academy with the IACP International Academy Collaborative Professionals.

00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:15.000

And she helped develop for King County Collaborative Law and access to collaborative program to help people be able to find affordable services in collaborative law.

00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.000

Welcome, Gwen.

00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:19.000

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:28.000

Yeah, yeah, so excited to have you here and and talk about collaborative divorce and mediation. So let's just get right into it.

00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.000

What is a collaborative divorce?

00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:44.000

Sure. Collaborative divorce is a process in which the parties are agreeing to stay out of court primarily and we enter into a contract that ensures that everybody is going to stick to that agreement to work together.

00:02:44.000 --> 00:03:05.000

Cooperatively and creatively to try to come up with solutions that work for their family. We usually do it in professional teams, so we've got an attorney for each client, a financial professional and a and a coach who's somebody who has a mental health professional background.

00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:13.000

Okay. And they come to help.

00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:14.000

Yeah.

00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:21.000

What's the right verb they come to help with with the incredible emotional content that is always available always present in a divorce and they do a lot of team facilitation.

00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:36.000

And, helped with creating parenting plans. They give some very pragmatic coaching to couples who are transitioning from a 1 household family to a 2 household family.

00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:54.000

Particularly when they have children and they need to keep working together as parents in the future, some very good parenting planning is a really important part of the divorce and the coach is very instrumental in helping that happen.

00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:02.000

I like to think when in a way of the coach being the party's emotional. Emotional translator.

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:10.000

So if you're in a meeting with the team and the coaches there and the wife and away is saying, Gosh, you know, he's such an asshole.

00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:31.000

He has to control. He's always controlling my spending. And then the coach will kind of step in and be like, well, what your wife is trying to say is that she's really frustrated because she feels as if she can't make independent decisions about the finances without your approval.

00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.000

Yeah.

00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:37.000

Yeah, I that's certainly some of it. And that can happen in full team meetings because in collaborative cases, we usually are meeting together.

00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:41.000

So we'll have 4 people, 5 people, 6 people in a meeting, whether in person or on zoom.

00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:55.000

So all of us on the professional team are trying to to help reframe those strong emotions so that they're they're better understood by the other spouse.

00:04:55.000 --> 00:05:05.000

And then there's also this additional piece that where things are very challenging, the coach can also understand it.

00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:14.000

Differently often than attorneys do, right? We don't have that same, same training. And can help.

00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:19.000

The team do some brainstorming around. How do we help? How do we help support folks so that they can really show up in this conversation even given this very complicated emotional context.

00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:49.000

So the coach is working with the divorcing couple or separating couple and they're also helping with team facilitation working with the professional team as we do some some brainstorming together without the clients present about how we can best support this family to move really efficiently and effectively through this this difficult process.

00:05:53.000 --> 00:06:00.000

I'm gonna back up a little bit. To talk about in terms of what, how, okay, how long have you been doing collaborative divorces?

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:10.000

I 1st started in about 2,008. I was trained, in 2,007, which was right after I opened my own solo family law practice.

00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.000

Okay.

00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:22.000

The training to do collaborative divorces includes a three-day basic training and then mediation training of another 5 days so I completed those pieces and then started taking cases in 2,008.

00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:34.000

And then most of us who do this work are training all the time. There's so much to learn about helping people, through conflict.

00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:35.000

Right.

00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:41.000

And, so that was just the beginning, but I, started taking cases at the very beginning of 2,008.

00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:47.000

So what drew you to this collaborative divorce process?

00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:51.000

It's, I believe that for those families who can do it, which is not everybody, but for those who can, it meets a real need.

00:06:51.000 --> 00:07:17.000

There are lots of families that that need to transition out of a marriage and into 2 homes. But they still have a basic amount of empathy and respect for one another or they have kids together and they need to stay on the same page.

00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:18.000

Yeah.

00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.000

They don't want to litigate. There's a huge market for people who, who just don't want to litigate.

00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:23.000

They want to get through this as smoothly as they can with as much dignity and grace as possible.

00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:33.000

But, but it's complicated. So they need help in doing that. They don't know what the answers are to all of their questions, but they do know that they don't want to slug it out in court.

00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:46.000

And so They're really not interested often in hearing, you know, what am I entitled to?

00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.000

What can I get? How can I get the most out of this? I want the most time with my children as I can.

00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:02.000

They're not approaching it with that sort of adversarial mindset. And so keeping them out of a system that in some ways encourages people to think in those terms.

00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:03.000

Right.

00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.000

Is, is generally a good thing if they are willing to commit to really trying to work together.

00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:25.000

To compromise, to empathize. And to think creatively as much as they can about what's going to work in the long term for their families so that any agreements that they make in this process are durable ones.

00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:37.000

Thinking it, you know, they're, they're at peace with their, their, their settlement and, and their agreements going forward.

00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:38.000

Yeah.

00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:40.000

Okay. There are a lot of people who want that it's just they don't know how to get it they don't know how to go through this with a lot of dignity and grace and generosity.

00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:51.000

While at the same time protecting their own interests and having their fears and their their deep concerns addressed.

00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:01.000

So anyway, there are a lot of people who want it. I enjoy providing that kind of service. I think it's It's in the best interest of children.

00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:10.000

And that's a big motivator for me. This is about helping to protect the next generation and making sure that they can thrive.

00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:11.000

Okay. Yeah.

00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:37.000

Because kids get scarred in their parents divorces when there's high conflict. So to the extent that we professionals can help people manage that conflict, get out of conflict by understanding more deeply what what they need and what their co-parent needs, then we're doing a service to kids and that's very meaningful to me and.

00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:43.000

And so that's largely why I do it. It's also just a very nice way to work.

00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:55.000

And it's, it fits me and my personality and my values, a little better than, a traditional litigation model, a lot better actually.

00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:04.000

In terms of, you know, what I'm hearing in terms of what's people have, you know, people trying to decide is collaborative voice a good fit for me.

00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:11.000

It's I heard you mentioned you know it's a process to allow people to treat each other with respect.

00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:12.000

Right.

00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:19.000

And empathy, be creative and trying to fashion their own solutions, how to navigate this process.

00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.000

Yep.

00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:29.000

But also durable agreements because I don't know about you but in my divorce litigation practice you know I've seen it where people reach agreements out of mediation.

00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:39.000

Yeah.

00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:40.000

Right. Right.

00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.000

And, you know, the, the mediation process in your regular divorce, your, your litigation divorce, it's more of a of muscle mediation where you've got the mediator applying that pressure under the thread.

00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:46.000

If you guys don't come to your agreement, you're gonna go to trial. You're gonna court and the court's gonna decide decide for you.

00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:53.000

Right. Right.

00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.000

Yeah.

00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:02.000

So these people are doing mediation typically 10 h. And they're creating these, they're fashioning these agreements out of duress and then 6 months a year later.

00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:03.000

That doesn't work for me. It's not horrible. Excellent. Yeah.

00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:09.000

Sure. Right? Sometimes the next morning they wake up and they say, what, what did I agree to?

00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:10.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:17.000

I was really tired at the end of the day and I was told I needed to sign this thing. So I was told I needed to sign this thing.

00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:18.000

Yeah.

00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:23.000

So yeah, those marathon sessions that people. So yeah, those marathon sessions that people often do, which is called I needed to sign this thing.

00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:32.000

So yeah, those marathon sessions that people often do, which is called mediation often, but really is something different.

00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:33.000

Okay.

00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:39.000

Of those as settlement conferences where again you've got you've got a neutral party who's going in between separate rooms often trying to broker a deal simply because people don't want to go to trial.

00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.000

Yeah.

00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:47.000

And so they are done under a lot of pressure often and you know, they're not collaborative in nature.

00:11:47.000 --> 00:12:05.000

It really is about, you know, trying to get out of this without incurring more expense and, and, the anguish of going to trial.

00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:06.000

Yeah.

00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:28.000

So that is a very different kind of process than, other forms of mediation, which we can talk about in a minute, but, It it is essentially a evaluative process that's about well what would happen if this got in front of a judge what's what are my risks how do I cut my losses which is a very different sort of question for people to be asking than what's going to help our family

00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:29.000

Oh, right.

00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:36.000

thrive. It's just a really different, a different inquiry and a different approach to trying to, reach some sort of settlement.

00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:44.000

And, and yes, to your point, they are, it is a muscle mediation in that people are being rest to agree to something.

00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:45.000

Pressed.

00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:52.000

Just so that they can go home and go to bed. And, and they might not feel good about it later.

00:12:52.000 --> 00:13:02.000

And so one of the things that I really like about, about collaborative practice is that we don't ever put somebody in that kind of a pressure.

00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:18.000

Cooker, you know, everybody gets to think and really reflect and and analyze and decide whether okay yeah this this this is a good way to put the pieces of the puzzle together and I'm gonna feel comfortable about this in the future.

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:26.000

And if I don't love it, at least I know why this was our solution because we have really vetted all of the other options.

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:27.000

Right.

00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:33.000

And this is the one that's the best imperfect as it might be. And I think that leads to a different.

00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:37.000

Degree of.

00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:47.000

Peace really you know just an ability to say okay we're done with that now I'm okay with it and I can move on in my life.

00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:48.000

Yeah.

00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:56.000

I can do my own healing from this difficult thing I've just been through and I and I and I'm not still full of of the anger and resentment.

00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:57.000

Yeah.

00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:05.000

And I'm never gonna have to revisit these agreements. We're not going to be disagreeing about it in the future because we know why we're here and we've done the best we can.

00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:12.000

Yeah, because that when you reach an agreement that you felt in a way pressure to get into because you're just tired, whatever you're trying to be over and done with.

00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.000

Great.

00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:18.000

That bitterness and the resentment and the anger that is that's a lot for people to carry and they don't get to Yeah.

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:22.000

It is. It leads to a lot of second guessing. You know, why didn't I do this?

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.000

Yeah.

00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:28.000

Why didn't I do that? You know, Damn it, he pushed me to make this decision or whatever it might be.

00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.000

Okay.

00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:43.000

And so if you relieve people of that burden of all of that emotional uncertainty and resentment. You know, they, the air is clear and they can get on and.

00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:50.000

And heal and step into the next chapter of their lives. Much less burdened.

00:14:50.000 --> 00:15:00.000

And that's what I like about the collaborative divorce process because it truly is. It's like the magic of the process is that it really is transformative.

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:07.000

As much as it can be, but in a positive way. I'll say that helping you. Yeah.

00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:08.000

Yeah. Right.

00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.000

Yeah, in the best circumstances it really is. It isn't always, I mean, you still get people who who are frustrated at the end, they've they've made decisions that they wish they didn't have to make.

00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:31.000

But again, I think going through the collaborative process and reaching those. You know, less than fabulous results.

00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:32.000

Alright.

00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:42.000

Is a whole lot better than having those less than fabulous results forced on you. And, again, there's context, there's perspective, there's an understanding about why something needs to be that way.

00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:47.000

You know, for example, there's not always enough resources to go around. Sometimes people leave a divorce feeling.

00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:57.000

Stretched financially. But again, if they've had a chance to analyze the whole picture from both sides and thinking about their kids, they might understand, okay, this this is this is what I have and I'm gonna figure out how to work with it.

00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:09.000

As opposed to resenting somebody else for putting them in that difficult financial position.

00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:15.000

Right. Right. And we talked about and I just have to put a disclaimer. I did not come up with the term muscle mediation that came from.

00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:16.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:33.000

Just sent a lot to. Who Gwen and I just recently did a continuing education introduction into insight mediation which is this fabulous program that Gwen has received joint training as an insight mediator.

00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:34.000

Yeah.

00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:44.000

That's just sent a coin that term muscle mediation. And, yeah.

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:45.000

Oh, yeah, we'll have to ask her. It is a great term. Yeah.

00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:57.000

Are we certainly heard her use it last week whether she coined it I don't know we'll have to ask her but yeah it is a great term and I think it captures a lot about how those so-called mediation sessions often work.

00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:58.000

Yeah.

00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:06.000

Yeah, I just love that. I just I that's what it feels like exactly, but we so we talked about like who collaborative divorce is a good fit for and you touched upon well it's not the it may not be a process for everyone so can you speak to that?

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:20.000

Yeah. Let me back up a little bit to say that it, You don't have to have an easy situation for collaborative to work.

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:21.000

Hmm.

00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:33.000

I think sometimes there's a misapprehension out there which is that you know collaborative is for for when it's easy and and it's just not that there's not much conflict it's not that complicated.

00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:42.000

And I, and I think it's the opposite really that it is. For folks who have a lot of questions.

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:43.000

Yeah.

00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:48.000

Their situations are complicated, which is exactly why they need robust professional support. If it were easy, they can do it on their own.

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.000

That's true. Yeah.

00:17:49.000 --> 00:18:03.000

They don't need us. But, but if it's complicated, they do, you know, we, have a lot that we can offer to help people get through it smoothly, they do. You know, we have a lot that we can offer to help people get through it smoothly.

00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:06.000

So what it does require is a real commitment to working together, and to, to showing up and participating.

00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:11.000

People who are in a collaborative divorce process don't get to hide behind their attorneys. You know, they can't say, you go deal with it, you know, get me as much as you can.

00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:38.000

They need to show up and participate in the conversations and do some really hard work. So if people aren't up for that, then it's not a good process for them if they really feel that the only way they can express themselves.

00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:39.000

Okay.

00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:54.000

If if their attorney does all the talking for them, it might not be the best place for them. And the other folks for whom it's, it's a, not such a good fit is people who just don't have the capacity to empathize.

00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:09.000

With a spouse for whatever reason whether it's a history of trauma, or if there's been DV in the relationship, if, you know, for whatever reason.

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:10.000

Personality disorder. Yeah.

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:17.000

Some people just don't have the ability or the interest. You know, trying to put themselves in the shoes of the other.

00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:21.000

And if that's the case, it's also not not a great fit. Okay.

00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.000

Yeah. So let's hold it up. Okay.

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:34.000

For everybody else, you know, if they've got the both the capacity and the desire to do the work, I think He can work even when it's very, very complicated.

00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:49.000

And again, that's where a good professional team comes in.

00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.000

Yeah.

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:54.000

Yeah, and just in terms of you complicated, like I've heard some really great stories from divorce coaches as well about when you're when someone is struggling with substance abuse issues, let's just say alcohol, using that collaborative voice process is a really good container or piece to.

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.000

To help people create a parenting plan, taking all addictions into concerns.

00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:12.000

Yeah. Right. I love that you use that example because I think that's another one that people are, you know, really think wouldn't be a good fit for collaborative.

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.000

Yeah, mental health.

00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:14.000

You know, if you've got, mental health or substance abuse issues, but, but again, I think it's just the contrary.

00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:27.000

That if you have somebody who has an addiction issue, but who you know, is willing to show up and address it in a realistic way, then it's a great process.

00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:38.000

Because it's out of that adversarial, you know, adversarial mode, whereas in court, if somebody has an addiction issue and the other spouse is concerned about the kids safety, for example.

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:45.000

Bye.

00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:46.000

Yeah.

00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:56.000

Then you might see a whole bunch of court filings that talk about the addiction issue, which you're going to inevitably make the person who has that particular issue feel defensive and attacked and all kinds of other other things, right?

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:13.000

If they're already dealing with their own struggles and trying to maintain some connection to their kids, but you know, it gets really complicated and the legal adversarial system isn't designed to just provide support and safety.

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:40.000

For that particular person who's struggling with the addiction in collaborative we can look at both sides of it we can look at the person who's struggling and the particular challenges that that person is facing and provides support.

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:41.000

Okay.

00:21:41.000 --> 00:22:02.000

And at the same time provide a safety plan for the kids. And so I've had some cases where we have very real active addiction issues where the the family has been able to work really well in collaborative, the kids end up safe, they end up maintaining contact with both parents as appropriate as as much as possible and the other parent isn't frightened about what's going to happen because again we've got

00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.000

Hmm.

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.000

a good safety plan in place. So that requires creativity and it requires both spouses to really show up for some difficult conversations, but it can be done.

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:23.000

And I've had some great successes in cases that we've had. Because we've had a good team that's been able to.

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:30.000

Really work with them to meet all of these really really difficult challenges that they're facing.

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:38.000

Yes, and that's a i wanted to talk about because you mentioned this several you mentioned this a couple of times about showing up.

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:45.000

So can you speak to, I guess, What is the, what is the client's role in the collaborative divorce process?

00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.000

You know, what, does, what does showing up mean?

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:57.000

Showing up means having difficult conversations. Initially with one's attorney, because we always do some do one on one preparation for the process.

00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:18.000

It requires a certain amount of vulnerability and willingness to to. Except professional guidance. That's an important piece.

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.000

Okay.

00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:25.000

The folks who show up and they think they already have all the answers sometimes also are pretty rigid. And that makes it harder to be collaborative and creative.

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:26.000

Okay.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:42.000

So it requires some flexibility. And a willingness to have hard conversations. So after the one on one conversations with an attorney, there are other conversations that happen with the coach which might be both spouses or partners with the coach.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.000

It might be both of them with the financial person and then they'll come back into a space with everybody on the whole team.

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:59.000

So, I think of it is very much like a business meeting in the sense that you've got a group of people trying to solve a problem together.

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:00.000

Okay.

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:12.000

But for that to work well. Everybody needs to participate. So if if somebody just doesn't want to participate, doesn't want to have these conversations, then it doesn't work well.

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:23.000

So, so that's the work that a client needs to do is be prepared, do your homework, and and be willing to have difficult conversations.

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:31.000

And when you say do your homework, can you speak to what that is?

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.000

Oh.

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:45.000

Sure, some of it is financial homework. You know, you got to get the documents, all of the financial information out and sometimes that's a certain amount of work to pass on all of that information in document form to the financial professional.

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.000

And then there's also the emotional piece. There's hard work sometimes around doing a deeper dive into.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:25:08.000

That those tender areas that everybody has when going through a divorce and really trying to them so that they can be addressed.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:18.000

If if folks come in fully defended. Like, you know. I didn't do anything wrong and I'm not participating with this.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:24.000

Sometimes that's an easier place for people to be, right? Because then you can like end of conversation.

00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:30.000

Yeah.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.000

The walls.

00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:39.000

I'm done. So the hard work is in letting down those those barriers and those defenses enough to let in new information and create flexibility and a capacity for in oneself.

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:50.000

So some of it is just introspection. Work, which can be done. With the coach with the attorney one on one on one's own.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:03.000

With the whole team but It's it can be hard. And so I consider that work that the client needs to do.

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:14.000

Yeah, and it is because you touched upon it earlier, cause in a traditional divorce litigation, you mentioned that The client, they can just they're showing the attorney shows up.

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.000

Right. Right.

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:23.000

Not the client. And the client can in a way, use that attorney as their shield, whether to be attacked the other person.

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:30.000

That's right. Right.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:31.000

That's right.

00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:40.000

Or just not just you don't have to participate in that collaborative flexible you don't have to make yourself open you don't have to have introspection into your own behaviors divorce litigation like you said it's adversarial it's pointing the finger at the other side.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:50.000

Right. That's right. There's there's a there's a lot of that.

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000

Yeah.

00:26:51.000 --> 00:27:00.000

Now, you know, a lot of more traditional family law attorneys also are very creative. And they do great work with their clients to help them understand the context and make appropriate compromises.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.000

Yeah. Alright.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:08.000

So it's not like we in collaborative have a monopoly on guiding clients through divorce that's difficult without it getting crazy adversarial.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:19.000

That's not the case at all. But we do do it differently in collaborative. With the different emphasis that, that does.

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:30.000

The doesn't and enable, let me start that sense again, that doesn't enable a client to say to an attorney, just tell me what to do.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.000

Oh yeah, that's a good piece.

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:38.000

Right, so because we We can't. You know, we, we don't have all the answers.

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:39.000

We don't know exactly what would happen at trial. So, so we can't say, you know, this is what you must do.

00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:52.000

This is what would be ordered. And generally our practice and collaborative. Is to.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:11.000

Not take that invitation. So if I client says to me, just tell me what to do. I'm not gonna give a straight answer, because I want the client to, remain open and flexible and, create space for real discussions.

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:20.000

And every decision has to be made. With both parties. I can't tell a client where to land.

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000

The client then turns around and says, well, this is what my attorney told me to do. And I'm not going to flex on this point.

00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.000

Yeah.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:34.000

And collaboration is over. So That's that is a big difference in. In how it unfolds.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:45.000

And if somebody just wants to be told what to do. And sticks to that desire because a lot of people at various times want to just be told what to do, right?

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.000

Yeah, it is.

00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:04.000

It's just easier. But, but, but if they really are not open to, Exploring options deeply and owning the decision themselves, then collaborative is going to be tough.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:15.000

Passinating. I really like how you you explain that in my head. I'm just thinking in terms of collaborative divorce, you know, as a client.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.000

Yeah.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.000

You know, you have to be prepared to like roll up your sleeves and be present. President get get down into it even as uncomfortable as it is.

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:23.000

Right.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:24.000

Right.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:30.000

You know that there's a team, your divorce coach. Maybe a parenting coach if kids are involved, the collaborative divorce attorneys, they're all there to support you.

00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:42.000

Yeah, yeah, but I think it's important for all of us to understand the discomfort. This is hard.

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:43.000

Yeah.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:50.000

You know, this is somebody they're divorcing or separating from and they're scared. Usually about about their financial wellbeing, about where they're going to live, what life is gonna look like, what are, how's this going to affect their kids?

00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:02.000

There's a lot of fear. And just tumult, you know, the, the worlds are being turned upside down and whether they ask for the divorce or not.

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:17.000

And so. We all need to be really sensitive to and and educated about what that emotional experience is like for folks so that we can help support them.

00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000

Through it and the answer is not to take over and say, okay, I'll just tell you what to do.

00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:29.000

You know, the answer is to provide, deeper emotional support and really understand what is feeling.

00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:38.000

Threatened why somebody feels fearful. And, and bring those things to the surface so that they can be addressed.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:51.000

Right. And I want to talk about and I you as you being part of the King County Collaborative Law Program, KCCL, can you talk about the access to collaborative program that you help develop?

00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:52.000

What is that?

00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:00.000

Sure. Yeah, I yes, I'd be delighted to. We have developed a program that is a sliding fee scale program.

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:08.000

We would like collaborative to be available to more people. It is expensive because All legal services are expensive.

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:17.000

It's not more expensive than litigation. In fact, I think it's, a lot less expensive than real litigation.

00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:18.000

Yeah.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:30.000

And still, you've got 4 professionals on your team who are being paid at pretty high hourly rates, and still you've got 4 professionals on your team who are being paid at pretty high hourly rates.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:43.000

So the sliding fee scale program to have a complete team of professionals and get all of the professional services that they need to deal with their complicated situations and not have to pay so much.

00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:54.000

So, it sets ourly rates based on income levels of the clients. So for example, we have reduced hourly rates that the whole professional team would commit to.

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:16.000

For clients earning up to a total of a hundred $2425,000 a year so folks whose joint income is less than that might be eligible to receive these reduced rates from their professional team.

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:27.000

There are some additional vacations. there's an asset limit. With a whole bunch of things excluded.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:35.000

So for example, your house is excluded, your retirement accounts are excluded. Your cars are excluded.

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000

But if after those exclusions you still have a lot a lot of money in the bank, you might not qualify.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:51.000

Right now the liquid assets cap is about $30,000. That might shift depending on how it goes.

00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:03.000

As people come into the program and we get more information about where the needs are because the bottom line is that we would like to serve people as much as we possibly can.

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:28.000

So if folks are lower income and they don't have much in the way of available assets, then they might qualify and they can reach us through the King County Collaborative Law website where people can fill out an initial eligibility questionnaire and then if it looks like there's a fit, we refer them to members in our community who are willing to work at these reduced rates for for further.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:39.000

Discussion about whether this is a good match.

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:48.000

Well, that's exciting. That's exciting to be able to make collaborative law affordable to to everyone.

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:49.000

Okay.

00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:56.000

Yeah, I think so. And I think it, it really should take in just about everyone, because our, fee scale goes, goes pretty low.

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:02.000

And you know, of course, if people don't have complexity, then they might not need a full team.

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:19.000

And that also further reduces the, the cost or they might still be able to do it on their own or choose a different process but again for people for whom there are a lot of moving parts and it's hard and maybe it's that couple where there's an addiction issue.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000

Yeah.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:27.000

And they really do need some robust support to figure out how to manage it. Then it might, it might be a really good option.

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:45.000

Okay, so to recap then if my spouse if myself and my spouse made under a hundred 24,000 and let's just say we had we had a home we had retirement accounts we each have retirement account, know their liquid assets beyond that we would be eligible for this program.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.000

Right.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.000

Okay, but do we have to live in King County or good people outside of Can County qualify?

00:34:49.000 --> 00:35:01.000

No, it can be outside. It is a program of King County collaborative law. so most of the professionals who would be working on the program are probably located in King County.

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.000

But not entirely. I'm, I'm working on a case right now where we have some folks from outside.

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:26.000

County on the professional team, but we all agreed to follow the King County on the professional team, but we all agreed to follow the King County Collaborative Law, but we all agreed to follow the King County Collaborative Law Protocols regarding what rate we're charging.

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:27.000

Oh, that's so.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.000

And on that case, we're all at $170 per hour, which is a pretty deep discount from what people are, usually paying.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.000

Yeah, that is a good count.

00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:40.000

Yeah, and it's working. It's it's good. So many of us are working on Zoom.

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:41.000

Yeah.

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:47.000

We can reach people, you know, really all over the state. So I there's a lot of availability there for people who are interested

00:35:47.000 --> 00:36:17.000

And I just, and you kinda touched upon it too where it may seem like, It may seem like when you have this team of professionals that collaborative law can be daunting financially, but as as a reform divorce litigator that myself that is coming out of diverse litigation.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.000

Hmm.

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:29.000

Let me tell you this ever since the pandemic the cost of divorce litigation has skyrocketed. Where now I can see, yes, because I did do a collaborative divorce case and that got resolved so efficiently and cheaply than my traditional divorce litigation and earlier that was a flip collaborative voice was more but now it's not it's actually cheaper folks it's cheaper than litigation and going to court in fighting Yeah.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:37.000

Interesting, interesting. Yeah, I there is data out there that shows that collaborative really is cheaper.

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:38.000

It is now.

00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:47.000

Of course, the range of litigation cases that are in that data set include ones that went all the way to trial, you know, which is a wholly different beast.

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.000

Oh gosh, that's a

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.000

6 figures.

00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:57.000

You know, those, those are 6 figure. Professional fees, whereas that never happens in collaborative as far as I know.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:14.000

But even if a case is in a more traditional process and it begins with some motions early on, you know, I used to think every motion is gonna be a $5,000 per attorney kind of project.

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:15.000

Yeah.

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:23.000

Oh, it's more. It's actually the motions actually are now minimum cost. 7,500 to $10,000.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:24.000

Right. Yeah.

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:29.000

I'm talking about those complicated motions. Where we're dealing with kids. So parent plans, spousal support, child support, it's $10,000.

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:33.000

Right. Right. It's per side.

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:37.000

Percy!

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:43.000

That's a chunk.

00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:52.000

Yeah.

00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.000

Yeah.

00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.000

Yeah, so that's a chunk of change. Whereas we have collaborative cases. That can almost be done for that much you know some are more so i don't wanna make false representations but i have had collaborative cases where my total fees are less than that and, and others where they're twice that or maybe 3 times.

00:37:54.000 --> 00:38:09.000

But it doesn't get much higher than that for me. And so It really is. I guess I would say it's a more efficient process.

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.000

Yes.

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:24.000

Sometimes when we're sitting in 2 h meetings in there for But professionals on the clock, which is really a 3 h block for the professionals because of some preparation before the meeting and then a debrief afterwards.

00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:31.000

Clients do Get really, you know, like, oh my gosh, how many how many dollars per minute is this meeting?

00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:44.000

So that's that's how many dollars per minute is this meeting. So that's that's expensive and that's hard to absorb.

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.000

Right.

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.000

But what is not happening is all of the individual prep time that it that an attorney does in an adversarial process where the attorney is gathering and reviewing all of the financial information, you know, making her own spreadsheets, preparing her motion, writing declarations.

00:38:49.000 --> 00:39:05.000

Showing up in court. That's enormously time consuming. And that's stuff that clients don't often see.

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.000

We don't do any of that in collaborative. You know, the attorneys don't have to do that same sort of intensive review of all of the documents.

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:22.000

Because we know that our financial professional is gathering that information and preparing a really good financial report that we can roll on.

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:37.000

You know, I might look at it. Check something in the documents. I certainly need to spend time understanding those numbers, but I don't have to gather them verify them, put them all together myself and the counterpart attorney on the case also isn't doing that.

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:59.000

So you've got one really highly trained profession. Professional who's doing it efficiently and we're not duplicating efforts and that's a huge cost savings.

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.000

Right.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.000

That you're talking about the financial neutral and that's huge because what you're talking about is the financial discovery aspect and traditional litigation divorce, which can cost each side $10,000 a piece.

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:04.000

Yeah.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:09.000

Especially when there's a lot of financial information involved.

00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.000

That is daunting. Yeah, don't have to do that.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:17.000

Right. And we don't have to do it. Right. And this is where we rely on the clients, right?

00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000

Right.

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:23.000

This is where the homework is involved. They've got to gather those those documents, but they would in a discovery process.

00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.000

What?

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.000

Anyway, they still have to gather the documents. What's not happening is that an attorney is not spending time making those particular document requests.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:35.000

And you know, running doing all the paperwork involved to force somebody to deliver those documents. It just happens, right?

00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:52.000

People work together, they get their bank statements, they transfer them to the financial person. And there's very little cost involved in that piece of the process.

00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:01.000

Yeah, that's that's the aspect I love about collaborative. Collaborative horse and most about how streamlined that financial process and how costs effective it is.

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.000

Yeah, it's a huge advantage to the process. Really is.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000

You know, switching gears because I know you also do meet, you're some mediator as well.

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:10.000

Correct.

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:21.000

Yeah, what type of I know there's different types of mediation. What like there's facilitated mediation.

00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:22.000

Right.

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:31.000

There's the interest base mediation and just sent this program the insight mediations. What do you do for how do you work or what model do you use as a mediator?

00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:32.000

Okay.

00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.000

So I'm moving more and more into the insight model, because I think it's, just so good.

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000

And can you speak to that?

00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:48.000

And so in the inside approach to mediation grew out of. of learning theory.

00:41:48.000 --> 00:42:18.000

So it was developed early by philosophers at universities who were investigating what happens to people in conflict. And how do conflict behaviors express themselves and how are they generated, what, you know, what's happening to people when they're in conflict.

00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.000

Yeah.

00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:34.000

And one of the great insights of the insight approach is that when people are in conflict, they, their, their brains are have shut down, you know, they can't be creative anymore and they can't take in and learn new information.

00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:35.000

Yeah.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:59.000

So understanding. Why people shut down is super important and sort of a taking that apart a little bit. When people feel threatened when something is that is important to them that they care deeply about feels threatened whether they recognize exactly what it is that's happening or not, they will defend against that threat.

00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000

Yeah.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:07.000

Often the thread is based on a misperception. It might be that somebody doesn't mean to threaten them in any particular way, but there's there's something that another person is is doing or saying that that that triggers that defensive response.

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:19.000

So if we can understand what it is that they deeply care about that is being threatened in that situation. What is their perception of threat about?

00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:33.000

Then we can start to diffuse it a little bit. We can start to help people feel heard. We can help them clear up any misunderstanding that might be triggering, triggering that defensive response.

00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:54.000

And That often happens with the 2 people in the room. Right, if Spouse A gets really triggered by something spouse B says, let's understand why, why that is and verify with spouse B, is that what was intended?

00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.000

Yeah.

00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:14.000

Because sometimes it wasn't. And so helping folks understand their communication patterns better and understand what exactly is feeling threatened and why can help to help them walk through it and get to a place where those miss understandings are cleared up or real differences in their concerns and needs can be dressed, addressed directly and creatively.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:23.000

So that they don't need to be defending against the other and they don't need to be in the same kind of conflict.

00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:42.000

So if that conflict can be reduced through that kind of a process, then people can show up. With some ability to learn and be creative and come up with real solutions.

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:50.000

So really insight mediation is trying to get to the core of the conflict. In a way that enables people to find a different and better way to.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:57.000

Move forward.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:05.000

I like how you describe that, Insight Mediation is helping people get to the core of the conflict as contrasted with interspace mediation.

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.000

Well, what is your interest here? Is your in your financial security?

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:22.000

Right. Yeah. Yeah, the difference is the emotional piece. Because on one level, we can identify those interests, which can be, you know, objectively very clear.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000

Yeah.

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:39.000

And we can figure out ways to meet. Both of those interests, if everybody is able to think.

00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:40.000

Okay.

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:51.000

Really rationally, but a lot of conflict happens in such a way that people aren't thinking, can't think rationally anymore because of what's happening to them physiologically because of because of the underlying conflict and all of the emotion that is there, which has to do with those very core values, those concerns and needs that are being threatened.

00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:07.000

So if you you embrace more fully what is happening for people in conflict, then you can get at it in a in a way that is a bit deeper and ultimately I think is more flexible.

00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:17.000

It's a more expansive approach can deal with other kinds of issues. In a productive, helpful way.

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.000

To help people get to durable agreements. So sorry, that was a mouthful.

00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:36.000

No, I would just, it's so funny because you're talking about this and I was thinking.

00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:37.000

Okay.

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:48.000

I was thinking about an argument I have with my husband this very morning and just what you're talking about like oh my gosh I wish we had an insight meteor between the 2 of us because I was feeling threatened and I just went into like defend and attack mold and no, but literally my brain just shut down.

00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.000

That's what happens. Right.

00:46:49.000 --> 00:47:03.000

And out that my bridges shut down, went into attack defense mode. And of course what happens is that then we're both yelling and not really hearing each other and when you know listening to you talk well what was Well, what's behind it, right?

00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:13.000

And I I can analyze it like, okay, his has to do with financial security and minds his mind has to do with I want financial independence.

00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:14.000

Right. Perfect. Right.

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:17.000

So those are the 2 different values that were that were in contact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no in the moment.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:23.000

Well, and you're probably able to analyze it later, but not very well in the moment. And, and that's what happens to all of us.

00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:24.000

Not only cause I was flooded.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:34.000

I mean, I, I, it's amazing how this training, you know, as I mentioned, I've been doing training for years, right?

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:48.000

Yeah.

00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.000

Yeah.

00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:56.000

Trying to more deeply understand and improve my own skills for meeting people in these places. But oh my goodness, it makes me think retrospectively about so many things I've done in my life and conflicts I've had and the ways I parented and all of it.

00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:59.000

Okay.

00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000

Yeah.

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:09.000

Oh my gosh, I just, I want to have a redo for all of it. Unfortunately, not all of it, but some of it for sure, because there's, just so much that I've learned, but some of it for sure, because there's, just so much that I've learned and I'm so grateful for my trainers over the years and, and my colleagues and

00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:13.000

my trainers over the years and, and I'm so grateful for my trainers over the years and, and my colleagues and my clients who've helped me learn so much over the years.

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:29.000

But anyway, I try to bring all of that to, to mediation. And I'm still working on and I probably will be working forever on the inside approach and all of the.

00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:34.000

Richness that I think it brings to the mediation process.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:41.000

So how do you, cause how do you help clients as a mediator? How do you help your clients prepare for mediation?

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:50.000

So thanks to Justin to go out and the the work that she has done in, bringing insight mediation to our community.

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:59.000

I've got a wonderful set of workbooks which which she wrote that enable clients to do a lot of their homework on their own.

00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:06.000

A lot of the introspection about what is really important to them. And it also provides information that people can use.

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:25.000

In discussions with their spouses, but primarily it's it's it's about the introspection piece enabling people then to show up and identify what's happening in those moments of conflict.

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:37.000

Oh right, that's because this is super important to me, you know, I, I really value

00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:44.000

X and my smart partner is really valuing why and that's why we're not hearing each other.

00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:54.000

It's, It's helping people bring those things to the surface. And a good mediator is there to, to help that happen.

00:49:54.000 --> 00:50:02.000

But a lot of the preparation can be done by clients. Thanks to this really great set of workbooks that Jacinta has produced.

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:13.000

And so when you were before you were trained to be an insight, and when did you receive that training again with Jacinta?

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:14.000

Okay.

00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:29.000

I started with her in 2019. She appeared at the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals Annual Forum, which was in Seattle in 2,018.

00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:30.000

Oh wow.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:31.000

And then she did a Zoom training group in 2019. It was my 1st time on Zoom before the pandemic, but it was a wonderful experience because we had people from around the world who were in that training group.

00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:49.000

So I did that one and then, I did. 2 years ago, I guess now, a year long series, with her in Insight Mediation.

00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:56.000

And, and I'm in another one right now. So it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing thing.

00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:06.000

Wow, you have gone a lot of training because you just completed the year long training with, International Academy, of Collaborate Professionals, right?

00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.000

Wow. Oh, okay.

00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:16.000

Yeah, that was a leadership academy. So, that was, yes, a, a different sort of training and that that was another year-long program.

00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:26.000

I love that. Cause I think we should, I think, especially to as attorneys, lawyers, we always need to be developing and growing our skills to truly be able to help our clients.

00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000

I agree.

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:40.000

So, so with you, you know, kind of I guess playing that role as a traditional meteor, you know, kind of, I guess, playing that role as a traditional meteor, let's just say interspace and then insight now doing the insight.

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:48.000

Training, a dream mediation that way. Can you speak us to like As to the 2 differences that you've seen.

00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:56.000

In terms of your mediation practice, when you're doing interest phase as to now, which is more insight.

00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000

Oh, okay.

00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:10.000

I think it's just deeper. And it's given me a, a richer.

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:23.000

A richer theory, to draw on so that I can understand. What needs to happen next and I actually have some some real approaches.

00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:27.000

I think that.

00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:49.000

Not articulating this very well, but I think it's just richer. And it, Because it's tied so much to human behavior rather than simply to, you know, what people already know they need.

00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:50.000

Okay, okay, that makes.

00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:01.000

It's more flexible in responsive to real conflict, I think. And so for me, whether I'm using it in a mediation or I'm bringing those same.

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:12.000

Insights to bear in a collaborative case. It has helped me shift the kinds of questions I ask and what I expect.

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:18.000

To happen. So It's helped me become, I think, very. Tolerant of conflict.

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:33.000

I'm not uncomfortable. Being in conflict. And, and has helped me intervene, I think, more effectively for my clients.

00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000

Yeah.

00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:46.000

Helping them feel heard and understood. And so that's what has made it, I think, most meaningful for me and, and I'm just, just scratching the surface.

00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000

Yeah.

00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:53.000

I mean, I think there's so much more to learn and I have a lot of room for improvement in in my own skills as an insight mediator.

00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:05.000

I think I can make this my lifelong project now. Now that I am in the last act.

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:06.000

Yeah.

00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.000

I've just got a There's just so much there. I want to delve deeper and become, better at it.

00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:14.000

And then you're gonna be giving classes and training on inside mediation. Okay.

00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:21.000

Well, that would be great. I would love to. Yeah, I'm not I don't feel

00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:22.000

Yeah, I, yes, yes, I would love to. Okay.

00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:32.000

Yeah. But I heard you, I heard you mentioned I wanted to go back there. You talked about real approaches.

00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:36.000

Is, is that something you could get an example of or speak more to?

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.000

What did I say? Real approaches?

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:50.000

Real approaches, right? And this is why I thought it, this is what came to my mind. And I think we touched, I think we, maybe we touch upon this when we were in our in our training with Gasenta.

00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:51.000

Okay.

00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:58.000

Okay, so let's pretend right. So we're collaborative divorce meeting. We're in mediation and I'm the woman.

00:54:58.000 --> 00:54:59.000

Yeah.

00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:05.000

But so you see me and my husband is talking about money and finances, whatever, and my husband is talking about money and finances, whatever.

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:06.000

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:12.000

And I'm sitting like this. Sign, I'm rolling my eyes. What's a real approach that you would do?

00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:13.000

Yeah.

00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:17.000

Do you see my body language?

00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:21.000

I'd start by noticing it out loud. In the meeting. Yeah, I'd say, you know.

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.000

Go ahead, list for 10.

00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:36.000

You know, Lonnie, I noticed that you've just moved back from the screen and you're not saying much and I'm curious what's going on for you in this moment.

00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:41.000

Okay, so I'm so we're real playing right now everybody in my arms across I'm leaning back in my chair.

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:49.000

I'm actually looking up at the ceiling right now. Gwen just asking this question.

00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:56.000

I don't know. I don't know, Gwen.

00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:03.000

So Lonnie, you're not sure what's what's happening. But I'm, I'm going to imagine that something that has been said has, has made you feel like you can't really respond.

00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:10.000

Is that right?

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.000

I'm making her work for this folks. I'm making her work. I gave that tough thing.

00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:16.000

Yeah, you are. Yeah.

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:23.000

I don't know. Well, yeah, you know, Gwen, I just I just feel really frustrated.

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:29.000

I just were really frustrated and upset right now by what he said.

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:33.000

So you're frustrated because he has said and let's make something up more specific, right?

00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:35.000

Okay.

00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:38.000

So What is he said that frustrated you? We're sort of stepping out of the role for this woman.

00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:47.000

Yeah. Well, and the bliss and then also to she has to make me work too. Gwen has to help me define what it is that makes me feel straight.

00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:48.000

Right, right.

00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:54.000

So I love that you ask that going because now I have to think about it, right? Okay. Well, Okay.

00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:59.000

So let's go back into role. So I, so I could say in that moment, can you be more specific?

00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:01.000

What is it that's frustrating? You know.

00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:10.000

Yep. Well, I feel frustrated because it just, it just kind of always seemed like money. Was always.

00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:35.000

This big thing for him. Where is I know that together our incomes we make under together our combined incomes are 2 let's just say 200,000 okay but He makes me feel the way he's talking about it like we make $60,000 and we can't support 2 households like does any understand I'm frugal too.

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:42.000

I'm trying to, I feel like I'm getting attack, like he doesn't feel like I can't come up with a budget.

00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:51.000

Like I'm trying to live beyond our means and that's what's really frustrating. I feel like I'm not getting their respect.

00:57:51.000 --> 00:58:05.000

I'm not getting the respect. And the recognition, the recognition that I'm financially. Savvy or I'm financially responsible as well.

00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:08.000

That's what really frustrates me.

00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:15.000

So you're feeling. That you have the ability to work within your available resources, but that ability is not being respected.

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:21.000

Is that right?

00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:36.000

Yes, yes. That's so that's why I'm here husband like can can you understand that I understood but I do think that if we come up together with a budget, can you understand that I, but I do think that if we come up together with a budget, we can work to figure out.

00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:40.000

How to make sure there's enough for us both post divorce.

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:54.000

So I want to. I wanna turn now to. You're spouse. And ask is that what you intended to communicate?

00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:55.000

Yeah. The spouse.

00:58:55.000 --> 00:59:05.000

Tulani. And so then this is where he might then respond and say no I don't mean that at all you know I'm just freaked out about XY or Z.

00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:30.000

And then and then we would take it but the the the The innovation in insight mediation is that when when you're talking I'm, gonna be watching him to see how it's landing on him and then ask him to engage and to to verify his own intention.

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:40.000

He has said something that upset you. And so 1st thing we want to understand is Did he mean to say?

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:41.000

Yeah.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:46.000

What upset you, right? Did he mean to imply that you're, you know, reckless with money and have no ability?

00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:51.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:52.000

Yeah.

00:59:52.000 --> 01:00:01.000

To function with a budget because that's triggered you you know you have some value around your competence as a person who's managing money and you felt that was challenged.

01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:02.000

Right.

01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:12.000

And was threatened. So my engagement with you is to is to understand the threat that you feel. And then to check out with him.

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:26.000

Is that what he meant? Did he mean to threaten you in that way? And it might be no that's not it at all but but he's really frightened about something a little bit different.

01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:37.000

Yeah. And I, as as a client, when I was in that when I was a real plane, it does feel really good to have you take that moment and to kind of ask that why to be curious as a mediator even as a profession be like, well, why?

01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:50.000

Because then I have to think for myself and I really have to go in deep into what are my values and by lead believes that I then feel threatened.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:51.000

Right.

01:00:51.000 --> 01:01:00.000

So does it feels good for me to have you be curious? And then, restate what you heard me say.

01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:01.000

Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:08.000

Great. And that's the point, right? Is to help people feel heard, feel understood, which enables them to relax.

01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.000

And I did.

01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:13.000

So if I had turned to you at that moment and said instead, oh, that's not what he means.

01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:34.000

And or I had said to you, you know, Actually, you know, I know you, you can do it if I'd said something like that to try to reassure you, it how would that have felt?

01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:37.000

Not good. I'm still frustrated and upset because now you're telling me. Yeah.

01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:57.000

Right. Right, exactly. Because it because of something he said right so my intervention that's intended to calm you down or tell you that you're gonna be okay or to tell him, you know, oh, actually.

01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:03.000

Okay.

01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:04.000

Right.

01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:07.000

You have $200,000. That's plenty. You know, that's not going to calm him so, so my echoing the position of either of you isn't going to help the contract this conflict at all.

01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:23.000

It's between the 2 of you and the ways in which you feel threatened by your circumstances or by one another and then trying to understand by your circumstances or by one another and then trying to understand the nature of that threat.

01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:24.000

Yeah.

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:29.000

Bring it to the surface and and and check it out and enable you then to feel calmed simply because you've been heard and understood.

01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:38.000

Enable you to learn something new. From him and vice versa that might then enable you to start getting creative about problem solving.

01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:48.000

Yeah, I and I could feel that I felt my brain shift out of defensive moment. You're asking these questions and I actually felt my body relax as well.

01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:49.000

So I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

01:02:49.000 --> 01:03:06.000

Great. That's that's the that's the intention, right? So the learning for me as a mediator is learning how I can most facilitate that kind of response which enables people to relax and to learn and to come back into creativity.

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:21.000

And what's I think what people need to I think was also good to point out to Gwen isn't this not only works in terms of being a mediator but this also is part of the process of the client showing up in a collaborative divorce.

01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:22.000

Right. Right.

01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:29.000

And kind of. Being in that type of a sense. Like I'm in my head almost kinda thinking if you were my collaborator divorce attorney and we were in a in a meeting.

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:38.000

With the with the team that's also something that can happen as well where I could feel myself shutting down.

01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:39.000

Right.

01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.000

And then you help draw me out. Which it's not the same thing that happens in a traditional litigation divorce.

01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:45.000

No, it's not. It's not. It is pretty different in that way.

01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:55.000

Right, and that's why I like if you know my the values are in address and I'm just wound up throughout the whole process.

01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:56.000

Yeah.

01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.000

Right, right. And I think that's often what happens for folks.

01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:08.000

Well, you know, thank you so much, Gwen, for being on and talking about the the collaborative divorce process and how a client can show up.

01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:24.000

Talking about the access to collaborative program that you helped develop. That can make collaborative law more affordable for people here in the state of Washington and also talking about insight mediation and what does that mean.

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:29.000

So truly appreciate it your insight.

01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:36.000

Thank you so much for doing this and and having me here to have this chat. I really, I really do appreciate it.

01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:42.000

And how can people get a hold of you if they want to work with you as a collaborative divorce attorney or as a mediator?

01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:49.000

So, gwen@matthewsonlaw.com, MATH EWSO nlaw.com.

01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:52.000

I am going to be beginning a little bit of a in the next few months. So I'm not going to be available to take new clients.

01:04:52.000 --> 01:05:02.000

Until probably early in the fall. But, but if for folks who are looking for good collaborative attorneys, start at King County Collaborative Law website or collaborative professionals of Washington website.

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:21.000

And start having conversations. With folks that you, that you find there. I'm also happy to refer people in the short term, to other attorneys.

01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:26.000

But there are lots of good folks out there, yourself included. And so I encourage people to reach out to you.

01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:27.000

Thank you.

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:33.000

And find, find their way into collaborative practice that way.

01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:40.000

Thank you, Gwen. And what's, the before we, before we sign off, what's a fun fact about you that somebody wouldn't know just from looking at you?

01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:41.000

Secret, super power, skill. Yeah.

01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:49.000

Yeah. Yeah, gosh, I don't I don't have I don't know I spend.

01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:50.000

Okay.

01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:57.000

I'm working totally from home in part because I split my time between Jefferson and, Jefferson County and King County.

01:05:57.000 --> 01:05:59.000

Good.

01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:08.000

So I, guess a fun fact is that I spend a fair amount of time on the road. But I guess that's It's not that much fun, actually.

01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:09.000

Yeah.

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:12.000

Let me ask you this then when you're younger, what did you want to do when you when you grew up?

01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:17.000

A veterinarian.

01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:18.000

Really?

01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:21.000

Oh my gosh! Really? I would switch y'all the path to law then that's amazing

01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:26.000

I don't know, sometimes I wonder that, but, but somehow it's worked out well.

01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:36.000

Yeah. Oh gosh. And, yeah, and Gwen has has a beautiful, is your dog around?

01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:42.000

You're Okay.

01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.000

Oh.

01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:46.000

He's not. He's, I'm upstairs in my attic home office and the stairs are too steep so he doesn't like coming up, but I have a collie and, yeah, he's, tons of fun.

01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:49.000

He's my best companion.

01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:54.000

Long haired collie too. So how often are you, your dog?

01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:55.000

Oh, okay. Okay.

01:06:55.000 --> 01:07:00.000

Yeah. Not as much as you might think. His coat looks pretty good, but yeah, he's a lassie lookalike.

01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:01.000

Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:08.000

Yeah. I love Lassie's until I realize I'm like, I don't want to do that work of grooming.

01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:12.000

Yeah.

01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.000

Yeah.

01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:22.000

There you go. Yeah, you know, he does shed. It's true. So.

01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:23.000

Thank you.

01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:29.000

I'm sorry. I've got I've got my dog Chibaka over here who's who's a poodle slash cocker spaniel no shedding love it Hello, Yeah, well, thank you so much, Gwen, for coming on and, everyone when we have this podcast up, you'll be able to.

01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:37.000

And, everyone, when we have this podcast up, you'll be able to, we have this podcast up, you'll be able to we have this podcast up, you'll be able to, we'll have Gwen's information as well in the link.

01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:43.000

And until then, oh, I guess a little preview. I didn't tell you this, Gwen, but yes, Jacinta is going to be on the podcast as well talking about insight mediation.

01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:44.000

Okay.

01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:47.000

Fantastic. So she'll do a much better explanation than I just did so people should should listen to both

01:07:47.000 --> 01:08:00.000

Yeah, so tune in folks. For another episode of the Okiona Law. Podcast where we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce until then be well.

01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:03.000

Great. Thank you very much.

01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:10.000

OkayAlright