Akiona Law Podcast
Join us as founding attorney Lani Akiona interviews industry experts on everything you need to know about Family Law and Divorce in Seattle Washington. Akiona Law: Caring for You in Your Time of Crisis.https://www.akionalaw.com/**The information in this podcast is general information only and should not, in any respect, be relied on as specific legal advice.
Akiona Law Podcast
The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Caroline Plummer
In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with Parenting Coordinator, Caroline Plummer. Caroline is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) and serves on the board of the Washington Chapter of the AFCC (Association of Family and Conciliation Courts). She has a specialty in parent coaching, where she focuses on increasing the parent-child bond, improving child's self-esteem and decreasing behavioral issues using therapeutic methods, such as, Trauma-focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (TF-CBT), Alternatives for Families-CBT (AF-CBT), or Parent-Child Interaction Therapy (PCIT). Caroline is an expert in “resist and refuse” child dynamics or in cases involving “parent child contact problems” (PCCP). Lani and Caroline discuss how to set these cases up for success and create healing for the rejected parent and child.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:01:02.000
Hello and welcome to another episode of off the Akiona Law podcast. We're in we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce.
00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:11.000
And today I'm excited to have with me licensed mental health counselor. Caroline Plumber, Caroline, welcome to the show.
00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:15.000
Great to be here, Lani. Thank you for having me.
00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:21.000
Okay, and before we get started, let me tell you a little bit more about Caroline. So again, she's a license mental health counselor.
00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:31.000
She provides therapy to individuals. Children, couples and families. She serves on the board of the AFCC.
00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:38.000
Washington chapter which stands for oh gosh I just had it and I just lost it associated
00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:42.000
Association.
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:43.000
Of family conciliation courts. I know it's a mouthful.
00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:52.000
Association. Yeah. Right. Yeah, association of family and conciliation courts.
00:01:52.000 --> 00:02:00.000
It's a great association to belong to. It teaches you how to. Resolve high conflict cases.
00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.000
I always love their continuing legal education classes, Caroline. She follows the AFCC guidelines in her work.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:19.000
She has servedifications and trainees and several therapeutic interventions including extensive training and parent child contact problems.
00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:35.000
And she is certified and parent child interaction therapy. PC IT for short and she teaches caregivers positive parenting tools to decrease the children's disruptive behaviors.
00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:53.000
Now her work focus is working with other attorneys. And professionals in the legal system in both high conflict family law cases and non divorce related cases and she also also works as a parenting coordinator as well.
00:02:53.000 --> 00:03:03.000
In the family law, non divorce type cases or divorce cases and she frequently leads a team, a therapist.
00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:12.000
To intervene in cases such as where there's problems going on with the parent and child such as resist refuse cases.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:18.000
Caroline, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you so much and I'm so excited to talk to you today.
00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:21.000
Great.
00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:40.000
So what I'm excited to talk about and what you all need to listen to again is Caroline is an expert in the resist, refuse child dynamics or it's called PCCP, which stands for Parent Child Contact Problem.
00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:49.000
Caroline, can you give us like for the for the you know even for the general listeners or those attorneys legal professionals newer to this area.
00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:57.000
What is cases that involve parent child contact problems? What is that resist refuse dynamic?
00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:13.000
So good question and this is these are. Dynamics that happen. Frequently in high conflict divorce cases where there's a lot of polarization between the the caregivers.
00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:23.000
And often cases involving high litigation because the more litigation, the more polarization there is between the parents.
00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:36.000
The more that the children get pulled into that polarization. So. Often what happens is children in these cases sort of get sucked up into the conflict and they'll align with one parent.
00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:37.000
Hmm.
00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:52.000
And we call that parent the favored parent. And then they'll resist, reject. The other parent and we call that the rejected parent or the non favored parent.
00:04:52.000 --> 00:05:05.000
Okay. And now wasn't this termed parental alienation back in the day.
00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:06.000
Okay.
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.000
Yes, it was and I think we still do talk about alienating behaviors. We do still talk about that and those can still exist.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:20.000
But we also, there's a much broader model now that we use to assess these. Resist refuse dynamics.
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:26.000
In these cases because They often involve multiple factors.
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.000
Okay.
00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.000
Oh!
00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.000
And I do have a diagram for that. If you'd like me to show it at this time.
00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:48.000
Perfect. Let's take a look at that. And I'm afraid for those you are listening to this on a podcast, you're gonna have to come and actually watch out this recording on our Acuna Law YouTube channel so you can see Caroline slides.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:55.000
Yes, and I'm looking for them right now. Okay.
00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:01.000
Okay, is this showing up for you, Lonnie?
00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:02.000
Yeah, there it is. Good. I just wanted.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:06.000
Yeah, I'm seeing factors contributing to sustaining parent Yeah.
00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.000
Okay.
00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:16.000
So this is called the multi factorial model. This is a. A very I would say this is the most current model to assess.
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:32.000
Parent child contact problems. And the key. Point that This model shows is that The there's all of these factors you can see here child's response in the middle, right?
00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:33.000
Okay.
00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:39.000
That would be, for example, the child resisting contact with one parent. That's what they're talking about.
00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:47.000
So you can see that there's a multitude of factors that influence. This resist refused dynamic. It's not just the rejected parent.
00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:58.000
That used to be the old model. You know, that the rejected they would put the therapeutic intervention would focus on the rejected parent and the child.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:08.000
Effective at all. It never was. Because the all of these factors really need to be assessed and addressed so for example Just taking a couple.
00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:19.000
The child's age is the factor. A 14 year old is going to be much more difficult. To work with on these resist refuse dynamics than a seven-year-old, right?
00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:39.000
Because teens are individuallyating. From authority they don't like to really follow anybody's rules so when we get a teen we have to handle the intervention differently than we would if we get a six-year-old or a seven-year-old.
00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:49.000
That's 1 example. You can see that the personality of the aligned or favored parent also needs to be assessed.
00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:02.000
The aligned parents parenting. So for example, when we do these cases and do the assessment. I always look at what kind of parenting style does favored parent, aligned parent use.
00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:17.000
What kind of parenting style does the rejected parent use see down here and so if if the favored parent is using a permissive parenting style where sort of anything goes.
00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:23.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:24.000
Hmm.
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:31.000
And the rejected parent is using. More of a authoritative or authoritarian style, you can see how hard that is to intervene.
00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:43.000
Because basically what happens if you've got a permissive parent with a child. Versus a parent that's more strict, who do you think the child is going to be aligned more with?
00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:44.000
Right. The permissive.
00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:51.000
Right. The permissive. So one of the things we do in these cases is we try to get both parents.
00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:04.000
To move towards the gold standard parenting style, which is authoritative, which is a combination of warmth, nurturing, but also boundaries structure.
00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:12.000
Certain level of what we call demandingness. So that's another example of, you know, part of the assessment and you basically have to go through all of these factors and address them.
00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:22.000
Which is why these cases are so complex.
00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:41.000
Okay, so just to kind of. Break it down here. In terms of the, okay, so we're talking about the intervention, we're talking about maybe the court system or legal professionals intervening with the child who doesn't want to see a parent.
00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:49.000
And the professionals are trying to come together and you're trying to look at, okay, what's, let's just say.
00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:57.000
Let's just say the parent is aligned with mom. No, let's just say the child is aligned with mom.
00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:07.000
And the child doesn't want to see that. And so the professionals are coming in and saying, well, it's not healthy for a child.
00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:18.000
To reject seeing their father. That child needs, cause that child needs to have their dad in their lives, you know, whatever has some sort of contact.
00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:30.000
And you may have mom saying, well, I try to get kid to go on the visit and I know you mostly see this I see this mostly a lot with the teenagers well I try to get my 14 year old to go on the visit but It is a warning.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:39.000
And what can I do? I can't force him. What do you say to that?
00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:47.000
Yeah.
00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:48.000
Hmm.
00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:54.000
Well, what you say is what what we say is and this is this is also what the experts say like Bill Eddy and you know a lot of the experts who do high conflict work they say Do you get your child to go to school?
00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:59.000
Hmm.
00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:00.000
Yeah.
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:04.000
Do you get your chat? Are you able to get your child to go to the dentist? You know, and so it's, you know, we sort of challenge.
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:14.000
That like you know it's it you know really it's It's your responsibility to get your child to comply, right?
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:33.000
If you're the parent, you, you need to get your child to comply. And that really, that responsibility is really on you and you know if you're able to get your child to go to bed or obey a curfew or get to school, then certainly having a relationship with their other parent.
00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:42.000
Has is equally if not much more important than those other things that you're able to get your child to do.
00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:52.000
Okay, and what is this I see in your in the slides you have up it looks like you have something that says humiliating separation.
00:11:52.000 --> 00:12:13.000
Yeah, so you know these are I mean the whole the whole humiliating separation. Intense marital conflict, lack, lack of functional co parenting, divorce looked in litigation, all of these aligned professionals, education, health, and legal.
00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:28.000
These are all things that can contribute. To the additional resistor fuse problem. So the more sort of conflictual and high conflict the divorce and separation is.
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:55.000
Divorces, the worse it is to intervene in these in these cases and the other big thing that those of us who are doing these these cases now really For example, right here in this quadrant or this this square, a Lyon professionals health, education health and legal.
00:12:55.000 --> 00:13:15.000
Yeah.
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.000
Yeah.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:17.000
I, when I start, start assessing the case, I always talk to the attorneys involved and I actually send out a sort of a You know, this is what I if you want me to take this case then I need you both I need the attorneys to decrease litigation and calm it down because I can't we can't do these cases if there's really high litigation because litigation just creates conflict and that definitely spills
00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.000
Right.
00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:39.000
down. To the children and that polarization that I talked about earlier.
00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:47.000
Right.
00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:48.000
Right.
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.000
Yeah, I'm just kinda thinking in my head some, I'm thinking in my head examples where you have and as attorneys we do this all the time we can't help it unless you've gotten some training from the AFCC where you align yourself with your client and you almost say, well, You know, I talked to mom, mom said the kid doesn't want to see dad.
00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:51.000
Right.
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:58.000
That's you know mom tried or and this used to be back in the in the day like 10 years ago.
00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:19.000
Where We would have. The the child see a counselor and the counselor would then determine whether or not the child should start seeing the rejected parent and the counselor would then say, well, I spoke with the child and the child doesn't want to see dad.
00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000
And then dad's like, what do I do?
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.000
Right. Right. Yeah, that's that's it. Yeah, and that still happens, believe it or not.
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:25.000
Yeah, I believe it.
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:31.000
And that that is very, that's another thing that's that you're talking about, Lonnie is this aligned professionals right here.
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:36.000
Hmm, yeah.
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.000
Yeah.
00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.000
You know, when you've got a therapist. That is aligned solely with their client. They're working in a silo.
00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.000
Hmm.
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:54.000
They're not, you know, according to AFCC guidelines going back to that any court involved therapist really needs to be looking at the entire family system and and considering multiple hypotheses.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:12.000
And not working in a silo. So for example, now cases, especially moderate to severe cases of parent child contact problems.
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.000
Okay.
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.000
That I do parent coordination on I actually only will do it if I can hand pick a team of you know and ideally the the team involves a therapist for each parent.
00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:26.000
As well as the child. And this is this is a lot of professionals. It's expensive and again this is for more severe cases but really you need the therapist involved in this process.
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:43.000
To not only work for and you know their client and and advocate for the client you also need them to addate and support.
00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:50.000
The those family members to support the port order in the reunification. Right? They have to be able to do both.
00:15:50.000 --> 00:16:04.000
So that's very key.
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:05.000
Yeah.
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:08.000
I know how does this how does this align with like in snow in Snowamish County we tend to use Guardian a light Garden Man items a lot GA l's over parenting coordinators or even your parenting evaluators.
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.000
So how do you do it? Let's say you have a garden and light up and then you have a parenting coordinator PC such as yourself.
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:30.000
Would you the PC Cause you see, you know, you've seen it like good GA l's do not align themselves with either, but you see it in cases where you see a GL aligning with a parent.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:47.000
Would you as a PC parenting coordinator step in and say, Hey, GL. You're aligning yourself with the favored parent and maybe you should be considering XY, and Z.
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:48.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:56.000
Yeah, it's a good it's a tricky one because on it's a tricky one because you have to be careful of how you do that but In general, I guess what I would say is that
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000
I've worked with several GLs who are great at what they do and They aren't educated in how to handle parent child contact problems.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:09.000
Yeah. Right. Right.
00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.000
Okay.
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:18.000
So a lot of times what I'm doing as a PC is educating the GAL. On how to do the case, which you know quite frankly is a lot of work, right?
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:28.000
Okay.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000
Okay.
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:39.000
And so you know, one of the things that we're trying to do with the people who do these cases, are, you know, our, educate the GLs for sure and also, you know, you, you end up having GLs to understand how to do the case and so you kind of you know, you're like, if, if, you know, if you have a choice of working
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:47.000
with the GL who, who understands PCCP and one who doesn't, you're gonna work with one who does, right?
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:56.000
Okay.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.000
Hmm.
00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:03.000
So it's a combination of educating. The GALs, attorneys. You know, the parent evaluators in some cases, you know, they need a lot of the parenting evaluators don't have a lot of training in PCCP cases either.
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:08.000
You know, there's a couple that do have good training. But many do not.
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:17.000
Okay. Okay, so going okay you have mentioned so we're talking about PCCP again which stands for the parent child contact.
00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000
Parent.
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:21.000
Correct.
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:26.000
Parent child contact problems. And you had mentioned earlier about there's different types of levels. There's moderate and severe.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:30.000
Can you go into that?
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:47.000
Okay.
00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:48.000
Hmm.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.000
Right, sure. I'm gonna get this one off the screen. Yes, so the the experts on these cases these parent contact problem cases have come up with a kind of an assessment where you're you're based upon certain behaviors resist refuse behaviors, and there's like a whole list of them.
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:57.000
You, you, you, kind of grade the. Resist refused dynamic is mild, moderate or severe, right?
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:15.000
So for example, an example of mild resist refuse would be the child's going to see the non-preferred parent.
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:26.000
They're doing the visitation. They're doing they're having some interaction, but maybe they're coming back to the favored parents home and they're complaining a lot about the rejected parent.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:34.000
And they're starting to say things like, I really don't wanna go. I really don't, you know, it's that type of thing.
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:41.000
They're still going, but they're starting to develop some resistance. That would be considered a mild case.
00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:53.000
Now, to it's very important. And you know some of the good parent evaluators out there who really understand and GLs who really understand.
00:19:53.000 --> 00:20:04.000
Parent child contact problem cases. They, when they start seeing that in their evaluation. They will like put in an intervention.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000
To kind of combat that resist refuse dynamic right away, right? And that's really important because you want to catch these resistor fuse dynamics on the front end because the more the worse they get the harder they are to change.
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.000
Yeah.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:21.000
Okay.
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:26.000
So an example of a severe case would be That's how I'm saying. I don't wanna go.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:27.000
Yeah.
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:42.000
I'm not going and they're refusing to go. I mean, I have a case right now that I am I am grading as severe because even though the child's going it's with a lot of work and the child is not talking to the rejected parent at all during the contact.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000
So I'm, I'm not at all.
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:48.000
Hmm, not at all. So the child is at the visit and not speaking with a direct parent at all.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.000
Wow.
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.000
Yeah. Correct. And that's with a lot of therapeutic support. You know, I mean, that's with a lot of therapeutic support.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Wow.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:05.000
So, you know, that's gonna be, it's a 13 year old, right? So you've got, you've got a lot of things, you know, and, and, and here's the other thing.
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:14.000
This child had had no contact with the father. In this case, the rejected parent for almost 2 years.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:15.000
Wow.
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:30.000
So the longer the the more you have no contact the harder it is to put this case these cases together so one of the things we really recommend is like If there's, you know, if there's any kind of safety issue, obviously that needs to be assessed.
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:40.000
But even with the safety issue, you can still do supervised visits. And that contact with this with a supervisor still gives that child and the rejected parent the ability to stay connected.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:55.000
And that is a really good way. To keep some kind of contact going until maybe a parent evaluation is done.
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:56.000
Right.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:04.000
Which you know can take. I've 6 months, right? So, you know, getting that contact going even if it's supervised is really important.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:18.000
And would an example be like maybe 4 to 6 months of minimal contact with the rejected parent child shows up at the visit and just basically says I'm not going to just sits in the car or.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.000
Oh, okay.
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.000
That would be an example of more like a severe, right? A severe, yeah, severe resist refuse dynamic.
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.000
Hmm.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:37.000
Yeah. And those are hard. You know, those are really, really hard. I mean, one of the things that that I really want to start doing and I do a consultation with or other highly trained therapists in this area.
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:47.000
We consult twice a month on these cases and one of the things we're really starting to think about doing more is How do we rule out?
00:22:47.000 --> 00:23:00.000
The cases that really just Don't have a very Hi. Chance of working, you know, because And and which ones do we take and which ones do we say we can't take?
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:10.000
That's kind of where I'm the next step for me is like because it's such a it's such a tremendous amount of time and resources, right?
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.000
Hmm, right.
00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:18.000
To do these cases. They're very, very involved. And, you know, there's definitely certain things that certain factors that make these cases less likely to succeed.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:32.000
And I think we're doing the client. You know, and ourselves, just, and honestly the community, a disservice when we're taking a case.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.000
That does not have a high chance of succeeding.
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:41.000
Okay, so could you give us an example of a moderate resistant refuse case?
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:52.000
Sure. I would say moderate would be something like, you know, the child may be going.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:00.000
Okay. Okay.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.000
Oh, okay.
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:05.000
To the visit but not interacting very much with the with the rejected parent or sometimes a child goes and sometimes child says I don't want to go right kind of that would be kind of a moderate example.
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Okay, okay. Well, Caroline, how do we set up these? Parent child contact problem cases for success.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.000
Okay.
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:31.000
So what we want to do with that is Number one, you need providers that are trained. You know, in this in this area because if you don't have train providers, you actually can do more harm than good.
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:43.000
Because one of the things that we know is that a failed intervention on cases like this makes it very, very hard to have a successful intervention after a failed intervention.
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:56.000
So we because it when it fails You're the the polarization and the resistor fused dynamic is just becoming more entrenched and it's hard to break through that.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:06.000
So So really the best way to set this, these cases that for success is number one to have. Parent evaluators and GLs.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:23.000
Be able to see if there's a dynamic, 1st of all, you know, to like if it's mild to be able to put.
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:24.000
Yeah.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.000
What recommendations in their reports that you know there's this is a mild it's we're starting to see some resist refuse and you know this needs to be addressed right away before it gets worse.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:45.000
For example, I had a mild case a couple of years back. Where the children who are resisting the father a little bit and the parent evaluator understood Brazil.
00:25:45.000 --> 00:26:02.000
And she put in a you know some sheeps put in that it was happening. And that it needed intervention and she also did give the PC in this case, which is which is the role I took.
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.000
Hmm.
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000
To make temporary custody change. And if it if the dynamic didn't, decrease. And that actually sounds really severe.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000
And it's highly effective. It's highly effective.
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:23.000
Wow. Yeah. Wait, wait, did you say the court gave you the authority as a parenting coordinator PC to Change the, you said the custody.
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:24.000
Temporarily, okay, wow. That is amazing.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:29.000
Temporarily, temporarily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because the PC can't ever make a permanent change.
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:35.000
Right, right.
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:47.000
Okay, okay.
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:48.000
Yeah.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:56.000
But they in this case, because that is one of the interventions for these cases is a temporary custody reversal because what has to happen is that there needs to be a the pattern the habits broken with limited contact with these more severe cases with the favorite parent and then a lot of contact with the rejected parent.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:09.000
Yeah.
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Right, right.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.000
With therapeutic support because that gives the child exposure to be able to, you know. The child's kind of forced to be able to work through these conflicts with the rejected parent again with therapeutic support.
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:25.000
And Yeah, and so. That is a recommendation in the in fact, let me just pull up.
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:36.000
Another. Let's see.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:46.000
Here we go.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Okay, here we go. So this slides a little hard to see, but I'm gonna expand it.
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:58.000
So for example, you can see, by the way, this, okay, so 1st of all, this continuum.
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:07.000
Is was developed by Polic and Feeder who are experts in the, can see it right down there, Pollock and Feeder.
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:16.000
And this is basically, sorry about that, how you intervene in these cases. So for example, and I know it's hard to see, but you've got up at the top.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.000
You can see here, this is mild cases. This is moderate to severe, and this is most severe.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:38.000
Okay, so basically what they've got, they have recommendations of the different types of intervention, you can do depending upon the severity.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.000
Right.
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.000
Remember we talked about mild, moderate and severe. Here they are. So you assess the severity and then you look at your treatment options.
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.000
Okay.
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:53.000
So for example, You can see option one. Moderate to severe cases of alienation and hybrid.
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:54.000
Okay.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:10.000
So option one. Legal custody with rejected parent. Interim suspension of contact with favored parent detailed court order or no end and no intervention.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.000
Hmm.
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:15.000
Option 2. Favored parent attends individual intensive psycho educational intervention, option 3. Is a combination.
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:29.000
So, you know, I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but. I'm trying to educate judges and when I can when I get in front of a judge and I'm asked to do a report or I'm doing a status hearing I'm educating these judges now on this model.
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:31.000
Yeah.
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:45.000
Because it's very important that they understand that this is what the experts are recommending and You know, I think a lot of times you don't have to go go to a temporary custody reversal.
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Okay.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:30:01.000
However, what I will say is that if a good evaluator sees the resist refuse dynamic developing and they put in their parenting or in their recommendations, which makes it into a parenting plan that.
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:08.000
The PC can make a. Temporary custody change. That really helps keep everybody accountable. And one of the big things about these cases is accountability.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:15.000
And strong judicial oversight.
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Yeah. Strong judicial oversight. So that means like status review hearings every 2 to 3 months. What about monthly?
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.000
Monthly is too much? Okay.
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:35.000
Yep. And now, I have, I have had, I had one case, last year where the judge wanted monthly status hearings for 4 months.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:43.000
Right now I'm on a case where I've I requested the judge to give me a status hearing every other month for 3 months.
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.000
Yeah.
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:54.000
Because it increases the accountability. And also then when I go to the status hearing, I do a report and I make recommendations and usually the judge supports those recommendations and they'll put them in a court order.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Right? And again, that just keeps, it's clear, it keeps everybody accountable.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Okay, yeah, no, it makes sense. in fact, I think I was just at a review hearing the other month and, of course, the other parent didn't do anything that the court ordered them to do at the last hearing about a month ago.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:21.000
Yeah.
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:25.000
Which is, you know, they're supposed to do. The favorite parent was supposed to do search and steps and they didn't.
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:26.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:36.000
Oh, but so going back to that slide, you had there was this not you had the slide had like And I believe it was the model for.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:46.000
Moderate and one of the options was Okay, right. Okay, thanks. So it was moderate to severe option 2 favored parent attends individual intensive cycle educational intervention.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:51.000
Okay. Cycle-educational intervention is a very fancy word. What does that mean? What are we talking about?
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:57.000
What's an example?
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:04.000
Yeah. Well, an example is that 1st of all, you see it's the favored parent that needs to attend that not the rejected parent.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:06.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:13.000
That's a key point, okay, because the favored parent is the key to the entire thing.
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:14.000
Okay. Why? Okay. Huh.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:23.000
The favored parent has the most power and the most influence. And if that favorite parent isn't actively supporting.
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Hmm.
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:33.000
Oh.
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.000
Okay.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.000
The process. It's doomed. Doomed. And so that's where we give the favored parent a lot of, a lot of work.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:44.000
Again, why often the favorite parent needs their own therapist who's part of a team who stands the importance of.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:57.000
The child having a relationship with both parents. We give the favored parent a lot of education and therapy on how they can support the relationship.
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:11.000
With the other parent why it's important. In some cases it involves training the favored parent on how to increase their parenting style to more authoritative if they're permissive like I talked about earlier.
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:12.000
Okay.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:20.000
In some cases, it's. Teaching the parent parenting skills on how to get a child to comply.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:32.000
With their, you know, with their. Direction and requirements getting the parent to require more from the child using behavioral incentives and consequences.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:39.000
You know, incentives if they do and consequences if they don't. Like for example, get out of the car and go to the home of the rejected parent.
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Right.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:48.000
What's the consequence going to be? Right. So a lot of it is those are some examples of what intensive cycle, psycho educational intervention is.
00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:02.000
Okay, so it's not so much a class that they can take. By the favorite parent.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:03.000
Okay.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.000
I mean, in some cases, if I had a favored parent that was really permissive. I might, I might ask, I might appoint because as a PC, I can appoint additional services.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Okay.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:15.000
Oh. And.
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:28.000
I might say favorite parent you need to work with parent coach so and so. You know, doing some in homework with you so that you can learn how to use to, you know, learn some positive discipline and parenting skills.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Okay, so it's not so much that the court says, hey, favored parent, see a therapist.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:47.000
The court actually has to say, see therapists 1, 2, 3, 4 who are trained in the parent child contact problems.
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:54.000
Okay. Yeah, they don't know.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.000
Okay. Wow.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:02.000
And usually the court doesn't usually know who, you know, usually, usually the PC or, you know, a PC or a parent evaluator who understands these cases, they'll make the recommendation to the court and hopefully the court, you know, follows those recommendations.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:03.000
I, I have found the court to follow my recommendations.
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:15.000
Okay. Okay, okay. Let's see here. And I just had a I had a question and I lost it and I hate it when that happens.
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Okay.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Because it's such a such an interesting topic and I'm trying to keep all the questions in my head together.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Okay, so we talked about is there anything else that we may have missed in terms of the interventions that you use to treat these parent child contact problem cases.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:36:02.000
I mean, I think the final piece I would say, which is very important is that Often the rejected parent may have done some things that were, you know, insensitive or, you know, I mean, I've worked cases with, with resist refuse dynamics where maybe the rejection parent has.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:03.000
Thank you.
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:07.000
You know is is has relapsed from addiction or has done some things during and during a relapse that were hurtful to the child.
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:16.000
So a big part of this intervention is also teaching the rejected parent how to listen and validate the child's feelings of why they don't want to see them.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:24.000
And to learn how to make an apology. A sincere apology. And take responsibility for what they did that was wrong.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:38.000
So a lot of it's about that because that relationship between the rejected parent and the child, usually there is a rupture and that needs to be healed.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.000
And that involves a lot of work. With the rejected parent.
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:47.000
Okay.
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:48.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.000
So you see, it's a family systems intervention. You're working, you're working with with the favorite parent, the non favorite parent and the children.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:37:12.000
Sometimes you're also working with, you know, a grandmother or, or a nanny because, you know, what happens is all these people get aligned.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.000
Hmm.
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:19.000
And with one side and they can kind of derail it. So you sometimes have to work with the entire family system to get everybody sort of on board to support this.
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Okay, so let me let me ask you this question. So rather than the court saying, Dad, you see a therapist.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:41.000
Mom, you need to see your therapist. Child needs to be see a therapist. Would you as a parenting coordinator would say, hey, I want mom, dad, and child to work with Susan Smith.
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:50.000
As a therapist because she is trained in these. Parent child contact problems. Is that how it's supposed to go?
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Okay. Okay.
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:03.000
Severe. Yeah.
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000
Yeah.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000
Yeah. Well, that's what I that's what I require if I if I'm going to take a case I depending upon the severity like on this if it's a severe case I'm gonna say to the court if they want me to take a case or the attorneys I'm gonna say here's what I need to take this case.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.000
Hmm.
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:20.000
You know, I lay it out because, and I usually after I do, before I make that recommendation though, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm requiring that I get to see any parent evaluation or GL report.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.000
Okay.
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:27.000
I'm requiring that I see any relevant legal docs. I'm doing a review of the case.
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:28.000
Okay.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.000
I'm doing an assessment and then you know also talking with the attorneys about what's going on.
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:45.000
So I'm getting a lot of information. And sort of doing an assessment on what's this case gonna need to be successful?
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:46.000
Yeah.
00:38:46.000 --> 00:39:10.000
How can we set it up to your 1st question? A few minutes ago. And then often what I'm doing with that is some of the people who really know what they're doing, they're, they're, they're, they're calling me or another person, another expert who does this while they're developing their CR 2 way or their parenting plan and and I'm able to give them information
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:17.000
to put into that plan. See what I'm saying? So that that because obviously that parenting plan becomes a court order.
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:18.000
Right.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:38.000
Again, that's like that's like heading it up, you know, getting in there. At the early kind of at the at the ground level that doesn't know what's happened and sometimes if I have a parenting plan that with a resistor fused dynamic that's locked in stone and it just doesn't seem like.
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:43.000
It's I'm gonna be able to do it the way I think it needs to be done.
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Okay.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000
I just say that I just say I can't do it You know, I don't feel this is what I would need to do it and.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.000
Right.
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.000
You know, either they need to do it, sometimes they'll do another. Oh, like a modification or, you know, they'll put in like a reunification therapy order like as an adjunct to the parenting plan.
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:58.000
Oh. Oh. Okay. Yeah.
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:06.000
You see what I'm saying? And sometimes, yeah, you know, you just pass, right?
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Yeah.
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:22.000
You just, I just pass and, and the attorneys need to find somebody else. And, you You know, because I do require a lot, a lot of like front loading because these cases need it and I don't want to work on a case if it's not doesn't have a good chance of succeeding.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000
So can you go into that front loading? What does that mean?
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:34.000
It means, It means and is in more of a high moderate or severe case. It means usually assigning a parent coordinator.
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:45.000
Okay. Okay, parent coordinator. Okay.
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.000
Yeah.
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:51.000
You know, you really need, you really need one because you can't if you are only doing the K is a reunification therapist with no PC, you don't have the court authority.
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:59.000
To sort of really hold the parties everybody accountable and you're creating kind of a dual role where yourself because you're supposed to be a therapist, right?
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.000
Okay.
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000
Right, right.
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:19.000
Kind of relationship building with the client and all of a sudden you're in charge of like. You know, making, you know, recommendations to go to the next phase and all that.
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:20.000
Yeah.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.000
It really puts the therapist in a very tough position. So in a dual role. So number one, PC, who knows what they're doing.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:43.000
Number 2, you know, really some of the, some of the more well trained, psychologists know who are doing parenty vows, they're actually recommending immediate intervention before the evaluation is done.
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:56.000
And they will like send a letter out and say. This they need there's a resist refuse dynamic and they need a meet intervention with a you know and they'll say that needs a PC and the PC should be able to appoint a team of therapists.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:07.000
And I will be, then I will be evaluating how the parties do in the intervention. And that is going to become part of my parenting evaluation.
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Do you see what I'm saying?
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:20.000
Okay. Yeah, so when you say a team of therapists, you've got to, reunification therapist, reunification therapist, any other therapist.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:29.000
Yeah, often you often both, you know, you often have a reunification therapist. Again, this is for more high and moderate to severe cases.
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:35.000
You often have the therapist and then, you know, potentially a therapist for each one of the parents.
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.000
Potentially. Okay.
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Well. It's a lot of it's a lot of people. And it's called a multimodal, therapeutic intervention.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:53.000
And it is a lot of people. And a lot of money. You know, and certainly many families cannot afford this.
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Hmm.
00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:01.000
But this truly is the most successful way of intervening.
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:17.000
So when you have a reunification therapist and let's say you have individual therapists from mom and dad, those individual therapists, they don't necessarily have to be trained in the parent child contact problems.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Okay.
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:23.000
You know what I would say is it would help if they were, but normally is a PC, I can, I can educate those therapists.
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000
Okay.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:30.000
I do, I do like them to have experience with family law cases because you know that's it's own.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:45.000
Wow.
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:46.000
Oh. Wow.
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:55.000
You know, thing. But I can usually get those therapists to move along before I would put hand pick a therapist though for mom or dad I would interview them and say you know it's and I would send them the AFCC guidelines and I would say this is different than traditional therapy because you're you're actually having to also take into consideration the court order.
00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:00.000
That these parents are required to follow.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:20.000
You know, just kind of listening. It's like you I so you're really kind of do a lot of work in terms of the PC the parenting coordinator again like you said you front load these cases for success and I'm almost kind of thinking now it would seem like when I'm in this type of when we're in this type of resist review, we resist refuse dynamics, the most important
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:27.000
person we need to get on board is the PC. The parenting coordinator.
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:38.000
I think I think I think for particularly for moderate, high moderate to severe cases a hundred percent.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.000
Yeah.
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:49.000
Sometimes for a mild case, you might not need one. You if you have a trained reunification therapist who really knows what they're doing And if the reunification therapist requires a strong court order.
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:57.000
You know, for example, when I do, I do take a few cases every so often as a reunification therapist.
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:07.000
For a milder case. But I require a very strong order and I have it lay out exactly what I need from the parties.
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:18.000
And that can help. To help hold the everybody. So there there is a way around the PC if it's a mild case I would say.
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:27.000
Okay, and I was just thinking too at the same time, I guess if I'm thinking in my account and we have garden and items.
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.000
Garden Lightam could essentially act as a PC.
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:37.000
They could. They could. And that I have, we have done that. I have done many cases.
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.000
Okay.
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:51.000
Yeah. Quite frankly, most of them don't know how to do PC. Parent child contact, that they're starting to learn because the people that are doing these cases are training them, right, how to do them.
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:53.000
Right.
00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:04.000
They're starting to learn but it's still hard like You know, you've gotta get a piece at GAL who's really willing to sort of take guidance from you.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:07.000
You know, and, and, you know, I'm usually pretty upfront about that. I say, look, are you okay with me kind of training you on these cases?
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:22.000
Are you comfortable with me in that role? As a therapist. You know, because really there's there is a little hierarchy here, right, in the system.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:30.000
I mean, the GAL, I think is you know, has a bit of power and court authority and the court really listens to the GL.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.000
They do.
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:34.000
So you have to respect the hierarchy as well. It's a little bit of a You know, you're straddling.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Hmm.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:41.000
Politically a little bit of a thing there if you get what I'm saying.
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:51.000
I do. I want to circle back to you you were talking about I like to have a certain type of language in the court order.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:54.000
Can you give us an example of that?
00:46:54.000 --> 00:47:03.000
Sure. It would state things like the favorite parent must support the prioritize and support the therapeutic schedule.
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:18.000
You know, the the visits. The favored parent will actively support the process will actively support the reunification process.
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:34.000
The, Let's see. Often I will put in something like, you know, the reunification therapist can make status reports.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:48:00.000
To the GAL or the court. If necessary, you know, something like that. So Yeah, things like does that help those are some some examples of language that I would want in my in my my court order.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:01.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:04.000
Would you also want to include something in your court order about like if the if the favor parent does not support process or have the child, what like how would you handle that situation?
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:05.000
What kind of language would you put in?
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:15.000
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's a really good one and it's a very good one and you know, I usually like to have a GAL put that in there if they if they're willing to do it.
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:26.000
Or the or the you know again some of the parenting valuators are putting in there now things like If the child does not.
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:37.000
Do the visits with the rejected parent, this could be, this may be considered a 1 9 1 restriction for abuse of conflict against the favored parent.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:44.000
So that would go on the order. And then the court can then decide.
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.000
Okay. It may be considered.
00:48:45.000 --> 00:49:01.000
Yeah. It's hard. It's I mean, I don't really. Right, may be considered, you know, again, and, and, you know, I'm, I'm using that language because a couple of evaluators who really understand these cases have used that language and it has gotten transmitted into an order.
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.000
Okay.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:06.000
It's a little tricky. For me as a reunification therapist to put in such a strong statement like that.
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:13.000
Of course, I have to get the attorneys to agree for that, right? And that can be tricky, right?
00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:31.000
So there's You know, you get it, right? It can be tricky. So, you know, some of it is.
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:32.000
Okay.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:35.000
I is if I'm gonna take on a case with as a reunification therapist number one I need to be supported Hi, and I need to determine if they're gonna support the process.
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Yeah.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.000
And if I don't think they are, then I'm not going to take the case. Right.
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:48.000
And so, you know, it's because they have a lot of power with the court and they have the ear of the court.
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.000
Yeah.
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:59.000
And I'm not I'm not bashing jails because I think there's some really good ones who really do want to support the process.
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:12.000
And it does require a different. Some GLs, you know, they don't wanna be as involved and start making demands against the favored parent if they haven't done their assessment yet, their whole, right?
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:17.000
And so that's a little tricky. Unless of course it's opposed to CG. Al, right?
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:33.000
So. Yeah, it just each case has to be looked at, you know, and and kind of you do I mean you do the assessment and you let the GL or the parent evaluator know what you think you need.
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:44.000
And you know you try to get and you then you got to get the attorneys to agree on what you think you need and you know it's a lot it's a process for sure.
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:48.000
Now, what did you say something like a pre GL?
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:54.000
Host, a post decree. So you know, yeah, yeah, post decree, a post to.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.000
Yeah.
00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:03.000
Oh, oh, okay. Post to Okay, okay. Would you as a PC parenting coordinator show up to court at a hearing with a GL?
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:05.000
Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:15.000
Or no. Okay. Just wondering. Can you pull up there was there was something that I saw that that slide in terms of the intervention.
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.000
Continuum.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:21.000
There was something It was something of like one of the intervention systems for mild case and it said something about like Where was it?
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:29.000
Yeah. Here.
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:30.000
Right.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.000
Oh, okay. So like a multi day family intervention. For a mild and some moderate cases of rejection.
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:35.000
Yeah.
00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:39.000
Like what would a multi-day family intervention look like and who would it be with?
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:54.000
Well, that's really exciting question because we actually I actually just did a I called it a family, you know, a weekend family therapeutic retreat.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:55.000
Wow.
00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:58.000
And we just did one of those. On a case last weekend. And it was actually more of a severe case, but we, it's the 1st time I've done that.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:09.000
Wow.
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:14.000
What?
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Wow.
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:19.000
And I tried it because there are there are you know family sort of reunification camps out there where Oh yeah, there this is for very severe cases that have not been able to get any you know resolved just with normal intervention it's kind of a last resort.
00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:23.000
Okay.
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:43.000
You know, you can actually like a couple names are family bridges is one of them turning points for families.
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:44.000
Okay.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:54.000
I think there's a couple more out there, but. They literally bring you the whole family they have different combinations of how they do them but in general the family goes and they are literally in a kind of this therapeutic camp.
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:55.000
Hmm.
00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:57.000
With lots of providers, therapists for each person plus a, you know, plus a reunification type.
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:00.000
Wow.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:24.000
And it's very intensive they do. You know, the psycho and all of this working with each each member of the family and then bringing the family together and doing the repair work between the rejected parent and the child or children and you're doing this you know over the course of you know a long like usually a week or 4 days well in this case we did a.
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:45.000
Along just a weekend all day Saturday and all day Sunday. On a case that was quite severe and, you know, I'm hoping that it helped because what happens is You also part of the success of this intervention is you have to get the child exposed.
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:46.000
Good morning.
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:48.000
To the rejected parent. Some of this is exposure therapy. Because there's a lot of avoidance and the way to overcome the avoidance is the exposure.
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:49.000
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:49.000 --> 00:54:00.000
So and we did a lot of, We did in addition to doing just therapeutic.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:09.000
You know, talking about feelings, which is intense, right? We did some of that. But we also did a lot of activities.
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:30.000
Oh.
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:31.000
Hmm.
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:37.000
For the family to do. For example, we did a therapeutic meal. Where they prepared a meal together and you know we're cut chopping and hearing food and working side by side and in this case the the rejected parent and the child were working side by side chopping, you know, food for, and so we, and we did some games, you know, and so it was really, it was
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:45.000
integrated with both activities and like straight kind of therapy type stuff over the weekend.
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:46.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:56.000
Over the weekend. Wow. So it was, so it was yourself. Mom, dad, child and anyone else?
00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:57.000
Okay.
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:59.000
Yeah, there was the the child therapist was there and then the dad's therapist was on tall.
00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:00.000
Okay.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:07.000
He couldn't come, but he was on call. So, yeah, it was pretty intense. It was a lot.
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:26.000
And, you know, and I think some progress was made. And that is the 1st time we've tried that, but I think that's a model that we're definitely gonna repeat because I think that doing that intervention over the course of a couple days like that with that intensity can really help get you over the hump.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:36.000
Yeah, what made that case a very severe case?
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:37.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:43.000
Well, I don't I have to be careful. I don't want to give too many identifiers, but But, bottom line, the child had not seen the rejected parent for about a year and a half.
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:48.000
Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense.
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:49.000
Oh, okay.
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:54.000
Yeah, and so that and also there was a failed intervention. A previous failed intervention. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:55:54.000 --> 00:56:09.000
Okay, so you have this prolonged period of no contact with the rejected parent. And a failed intervention where in my head I'm thinking, let's say like a supervise visit was scheduled and child's like, I'm not going.
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:10.000
Something like that.
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Right. Well, I think when I say when I say the failed intervention, I mean there was a there was a previous reunification therapy intervention attempted and it did not it failed.
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.000
Oh. Oh.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.000
So there was already another therapist who had tried to work with this family. And it did not work.
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Okay, okay.
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:38.000
So when you're when you're doing, trying to do an intervention on top of a failed intervention, it's very hard.
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:39.000
Very, very hard. Yeah.
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:49.000
Okay. Now, I'm curious if that and I'm just speaking hypotheticalically, if one of the reasons why that previous reunification therapy did not work was because.
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Maybe that reunification therapist was not trained. And the parent child contact problems.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:58.000
Okay. Okay.
00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:16.000
You. Yeah. I think I think that definitely can happen for sure and I also think to be fair alarm the greater percentage of these interventions.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:22.000
That is sad. That's sad.
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000
Okay.
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:29.000
Do not work. You know, a great much more so than we want to. There you know you know you can throw everything you have at it and sometimes they still don't work so they're very very hard cases and you know and that's 1 of the things I'm putting into my court order now is like There's just no guarantee.
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:36.000
I can't, we can't guarantee success and the parents go into this knowing that. You know, we try our best.
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:45.000
But we there you know especially for a severe case. The the the harder the more severe the resist refuses.
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:50.000
The more chance you have of it just not working because also the court can only do so much, right?
00:57:50.000 --> 00:58:01.000
Like the court can only have so much accountability and But, well, let me just show you on the.
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:10.000
On the severe. Okay, I have to. Just decrease it, but where does it say goodbye for now?
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:23.000
One of the recommendations for
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:32.000
That's child has trauma history. One of the one of the, I don't think it's on here, but should be.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:39.000
It might be somewhere, but it's just really this diagram. Needs to be like redone so we can all everybody can read it.
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:47.000
Same good guy for now is one of the outcomes, you know, ultimately. Oh, here it is.
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:53.000
I see it. Option 3. Under severe case. Look at that.
00:58:53.000 --> 00:59:03.000
Rejected parent may not wish to pursue custody or access and say goodbye for now. Combined with the facilitating parting and a court ordered framework.
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:15.000
Or indirect or and or potential communication. So, you know, sometimes you the court just can't handle.
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:27.000
Resolve every single every single conflict, right, that comes into the family court system and you know, when you've tried everything sometimes.
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:41.000
The rejected parent might have to say goodbye for now. And we hate that. We hate that. But and it usually takes a lot to get there, quite frankly, but it is it is an option and then you know we help that parent write a goodbye letter and and all of that.
00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:42.000
Yeah.
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:47.000
Oh, wow. And I want to stress that's not going to be the 1st option you jump to in the severe cases.
00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:48.000
It's the very last. It's the very last option.
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:53.000
That's all the turn. Yeah. That's the last option because I can see some attorneys.
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:59.000
Sorry for my fellow litigators out there being like, oh, okay, well, so and so said this could be an option.
00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:04.000
So let's just jump to it. It's the very last. After everything else has failed.
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:05.000
Everything else felt.
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:16.000
Yeah, no, no and Yeah, very last. Very last and you know and what I will say is I think our Washington family court system really has done an excellent excellent job of handling these cases and prioritizing.
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:20.000
Okay.
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:30.000
That's the relationship. That these children have with their parents. They really believe and stand behind. The fact in most cases that children need.
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:33.000
You know.
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:44.000
Will do better when they have a healthy relationship with both of their parents. And when the judges really have gotten behind that and the commissioners and I think that's good.
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:53.000
Can, can you discuss best practices for the most severe resistant refuse cases if we haven't covered that already?
01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:54.000
Okay, okay.
01:00:54.000 --> 01:01:07.000
It we kind of have, but I'll summarize it. The severe cases need. Usually a PC who can support who who can hand pick a team they need strong judicial oversight.
01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:20.000
They benefit from one judge having jurisdiction. They benefit from status hearings. Regular status hearings. Yeah, that's it.
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:29.000
Okay. Let me take a brief pause right here because I'm on my laptop and I just said my battery is gonna die.
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:33.000
So Ashley, you're gonna have to cut this part out.
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:35.000
Take it!
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000
And I think I have to get I need to end here Lonnie pretty quick.
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:57.000
Okay. Yeah, I which is Let me just. Plug my computer in so great. Just be.
01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:06.000
Okay, so let me just
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:13.000
Okay. Okay, so Ashley, you're gonna cut all of this out and Let's see, so I'm trying to figure out how I can close this now.
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:24.000
Cause we were on a really good role. And, maybe I just say something like, any last.
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:27.000
Words or thoughts for these types of cases?
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:28.000
Sure.
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:34.000
Okay, so no, let's just keep on doing that right now and then.
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:40.000
Okay. Okay.
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.000
Okay.
01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:45.000
And I can use this last slide to kind of go over that too.
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:49.000
Share.
01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:52.000
Here we go. Okay.
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:58.000
Okay, alright, so Ashley, if you can, we're gonna start back up again.
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:02.000
Caroline, thank you so much for for talking to us about the resist and refuse dynamics. Or the parent child contact problem.
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:11.000
What is your final thoughts on this subject? I see you have a slide pulled up.
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:21.000
Yes, I think my final thoughts would be this is a It's a post divorce conflict. Parenting typology by Dr.
01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:41.000
Lisa. Wood who is from the University of Washington and I always have my parents. Who I'm working with on these cases look at this because This slide shows how the characteristic of the parenting relationship post divorce.
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:52.000
You, so you hear have chronic high conflict. You know, parallel cooperative and collaborative. And you know, obviously chronic high conflict is the worst.
01:03:52.000 --> 01:04:02.000
Characteristic of the parenting co-parenting relationship after divorce and then it slowly improves up to collaborative and it gives you examples of what that looks like.
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:12.000
Then here's the key. This is see over here impact on children. So a chronic high conflict dysregulated.
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:22.000
Cop parenting relationship. This is what it how it impacts your children. They're anxious. They are distressed.
01:04:22.000 --> 01:04:41.000
Self-blaming, serious psychological symptoms, difficulties with peer in school, regressed behavior. Demands for indulgence, clinging or withdrawal.
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:42.000
Wow.
01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:52.000
And this is this, you know, and then as the parenting relationship. Co-parenting relationship improves post divorce you can see how much better these children do.
01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:53.000
Wow.
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:59.000
When their parents are being cooperative or collaborative. So my big message at the end would be that you know.
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:09.000
Karents need to be able to put the past. Behind them or compartmentalize it, work with their own therapists.
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:30.000
And they need to prioritize. Their children after they get divorced. And realize that when they co-parent in a more positive way, it directly benefits their children and when they're fighting and litigious and blaming It, it dramatically hurts their children.
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.000
That's my big lesson on this.
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:38.000
Hmm. And I can't think of a better way to end this than that, Caroline. Thank you so much.
01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:49.000
Has been such a wonderful learning opportunity. I feel so blessed and privileged to have you share your your wealth of experience on on this subject this very difficult subject.
01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:53.000
Thank you so much Caroline for coming on today.
01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:56.000
My privilege, Manny. Thank you.
01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:09.000
And thank you those of us who, joined us on the Aki Na Law Family Law Podcast today, Warren, we spoke with Caroline Plumber, mental health, counselor, and parent coordinator where we talked about the parent child contact problems.
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:15.000
Until then, be well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Caroline, and I'm so sorry about this.
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:16.000
Johnny enjoy Hawaii. Enjoy Hawaii. I hope the weather's beautiful. Thank you.
01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:19.000
OkayYeah