The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Meg Gluckman

In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Ululani "Lani" Akiona welcomes Meg Gluckman, a seasoned divorce and co-parenting coach and host of the "Welcome to the Other Side" podcast. Meg shares invaluable insights on how coaching can equip you with the tools to communicate effectively, manage stress, and clearly identify your needs and wants as you move forward. Learn how coaching can transform your co-parenting dynamic.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law podcast.

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We're in, we talk anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce And today I have on with me divorce and co-parenting coach Meg Gluckman. Welcome, Meg.

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Thank you, Lani. I'm thrilled to be here.

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And so to give you a little bit of introduction about MIG, so Meg is a host of Welcome to the Other Side podcast.

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She is, as I said, she is a divorce and co-parenting coach.

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And she specializes in supporting parents. Whether they have toddlers, tweens, or 30 something.

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Navigate through challenging life transitions such as divorce, but doing it with grace resilience and respect and courtesy for the other.

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So Meg, tell us about yourself. How did you get into divorce and co-parenting coaching?

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Yeah. Well, like so many others in this field, I had my own personal experience of it.

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Oh, sorry.

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So I went through a challenging divorce and As so many of us do. And I really Yeah.

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Wait, wait, can I ask you, Mick, how many years past are you through this challenging divorce?

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Okay. And you're thriving, living your best life, right? Okay.

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Eight years. So, and I'm thriving. I'm loving my life. So my kids are now um 10 and 14, they were two and six when we went through the divorce.

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Wow. Young.

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And I did not have a lot of support going through the divorce. I did not know what I was doing, where I was going. I was super nervous about my financial future. I was super nervous about how my kids were going to adapt.

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To two households and how I was going to co-parent with my ex And so I dove into a lot of learning.

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Right.

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Around co-parenting. And I came across one of our mentors, Karen Bunnell.

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Oh.

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And started consuming everything that she had. And that was Yeah.

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Wait, Meg, for the listeners out there, can you explain who Karen Bunnell is, please?

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Yeah, Karen Bunnell is a… A co-parenting coach and mediator, she has written multiple books about co-parenting and teaches a lot of professionals, especially in the collaborative divorce community how to support parents going through divorce and her resources and her philosophy is really about

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Yeah.

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How do we center the kids during divorce and during co-parenting after divorce without putting them in the middle.

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Right.

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Wait, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Was she your mentor?

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So I love that like conundrum of like, how do we center them without putting them in the middle of the conflict. And so I learned a lot from her and um Yeah.

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Yeah, I have worked with her for years now. Yeah.

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Okay. Okay. And the reason why I say that, folks, is because Karen is retired.

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So you need to work with her mentor like me. Mentee, thank you.

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Right.

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Mentees, yeah, exactly. There you go. Yeah. And I mean, her books are the resources that I'm most recommend to all of my clients. She has the co-parenting handbook, which is great for anyone at any stage but whether you're just thinking about getting divorced or you're divorced and you're co-parenting, it's a great handbook.

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Yeah.

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She also has the stepfamily Handbook. Which is great even if nobody's dating yet, right? But you're wanting to think about it It has a lot of great perspectives and strategies on on how to eventually incorporate new people into your family.

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Yeah, so working with her and um Also getting incorporated. I do a lot of work with the collaborative law community As well, I love supporting parents who I want to stay out of court. So whether it's going through mediation or going through the collaborative process or

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Doing it on their own kitchen table style. I love supporting parents in that.

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In those kind of different divorce pathways. Yeah. So it's been an evolution. I've been coaching for five years.

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Okay.

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And just love working with my clients. I work individually with parents.

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So I am only working with one parent at a time.

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Okay. Okay.

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But they're able to take whatever we You know, together in our sessions to their mediation, to their collaborative process.

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Or to their spouse around the kitchen table to work things out.

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Okay.

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Wait, so I just want to dial back a little bit. For those people who may be listening to this podcast for the first time and don't know what is collaborative law, can you briefly describe what is collaborative law.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Though I know you could do it probably even better than I could. So collaborative law is a way of navigating the whole divorce process with the support of a team. And the team consists of an attorney for each party

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A divorce coach who's actually a mental health practitioner who facilitates the process and then a financial neutral.

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And so all of those professionals are on a team essentially together to support both of you.

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You and your spouse and your kids as you navigate through this process.

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And it's different than doing litigation. Where you're actually adversarial.

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In your approach. In the collaborative process, you are sharing all your information readily and being extremely transparent with the other party.

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And um you're essentially committing to working it out in this container As opposed to going to court.

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Right. And in a nutshell, litigation means folks that you're going to court and you're fighting.

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That's where the mud slinging, throwing crap on the wall happens.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But in collaborative law, you sign an agreement basically stating that we will not go to court to resolve our differences and we will work within this container, as Meg described this team of professionals who are there to support us to figure things out and to truly

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In a truly collaborative manner, which means we come together as a group And we problem solve. We work things out. We talk things out and we try to figure out the best solution.

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For all of us in a really kind, authentic and transparent manner. And when you do it that way.

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That actually saves on cost in the long run.

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Yeah. Yeah. And I love all of that and I'll just grab onto the word kind.

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Right. That you shared. Because I think sometimes the word collaborative can make folks feel like, okay, the only folks that can use this process are ones that are like best friends still they get along. They agree on everything. It's going to be smooth sailing, right?

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Right.

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And in reality, you do need to be respectful. As you're working through this process.

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But you don't have to agree on anything. Other than we're willing to use this process to make all of our decisions and come to an agreement.

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Good point.

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So even if you're not really talking to your spouse or if you feel like you're going to be opposed on everything, the parenting schedule, how to divide up the assets, who gets the house.

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Right.

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You can still use the process if you both agree. To sign the participation agreement and to be transparent.

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Through the process, yeah.

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Right. Yeah, that's a good point, Meg. Because it's still hard. It's very, very hard. Yeah.

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It's still hard. Yeah.

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So going in. To, well, okay, here's a question.

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So as someone says, I already have a lawyer. How would a coach help me?

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What would you say?

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch of different ways. One, a lawyer is really there to provide you legal advice, right? They can explain to you what's what's needed what different options are for your divorce and so forth. They're not there to do emotional processing.

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For you, they're not there to help you necessarily Think about how better to communicate what you want and what you need to your co-parent right um they're not there to help you really uncover like what are your fears behind

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X, Y, and Z, right? I have a lot of clients who come in and say, well, I'm scared to go to mediation because he's going to say he wants the house.

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And we go through a session of like, well, why are you afraid to hear that?

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Okay. Oh.

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Yeah.

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What is the fear of him saying those words? And can we pull that back and uncover okay you know, maybe it's something like, well, I'm just going to give in to him or He's going to fight or what, you know, whatever it is but like we do a deeper digging around what your fears are so that you can come into meetings, whether it's just one-on-one with your attorney

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Or in mediation or in the collaborative process. And feel much calmer and clear about what your needs are, what your wants are moving forward.

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A lot of folks feel like in the beginning of the divorce process.

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That the process is kind of driving them like it's out of their control Right. Or it's the other person kind of pushing them through it.

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Yeah. Right.

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And things can really shift and you can feel a lot more empowered If you can go into those meetings knowing what you want to get out of the meetings, knowing what's on the agenda knowing you know knowing all the issues that might come up.

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And that's just like deeper work that you can do with a coach versus your attorney.

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Okay.

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Who's going to prepare you with an agenda, but isn't necessarily going to do the the emotional work that's behind.

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All that stuff.

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Yeah, that's a good point. Nor do you want to pay your attorney to do that emotional processing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, you too.

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Absolutely. I am a lot cheaper than attorneys. Divorce and co-parenting coaches are going to be a lot cheaper. And we've had the training for it, right? Versus attorneys best of intentions, that's not what their training is in. Like use them. It's like using the right tool for the right

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Occasion, right? Like use them to help you with the legal piece of it and use coaches to help you But the emotional piece of it.

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Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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Right. In a way, it's almost like that coach is that your backbone that can lift you up and support you And the attorney's like, well, this is what we can do to get you through it in terms of structuring things that

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Hopefully work out best for you and the kids.

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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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So my next, it just popped in my head is like, okay, so you had mentioned earlier that is a co-parenting coach that you only work with one parent.

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Now, maybe I'm just being naive, but Wouldn't it make sense that a co-parent work with both parents together to coach them to stop being shitty in a way You know what I mean?

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Yeah, yeah. The beautiful thing is it really only takes one person.

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Okay.

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To change the system. As one parent changes, it creates ripple effects with the other person.

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The reason I only work with one person and there's definitely co-parent coaches out there who work with both parties together right I work with one person because I want to go deeper with them.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Right. And the ability to go deeper and be more vulnerable and get to the root cause of like Okay, why does that text from your ex send you into a spiral for three days, right? Like getting to the root of what's going on for you

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You wouldn't necessarily be able to do that If the spouse is sitting in the same room.

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Right, right.

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Yeah.

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Talk you know listening to it, right? They want the privacy of like being able to do that deep work And then… I'm also like a lot of what we do is allowing the other person to show up however they're going to show up.

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Oh. Okay.

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However they're choosing to show up. And you… being okay.

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No matter what.

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Because we can't control people, places, things, and situations. Oh, we can… control is how we show up and respond.

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Yeah.

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I… Right, right, right. And the other person is going to change. They're going to do whatever they want to do if they want to do it.

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If they want to.

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So we talk a lot about you can still make a request that they behave in a certain way right so You don't like that they take five days to respond to an email request that you send.

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Okay, you can ask them, can you please respond? In the next 24 hours so that I can move forward.

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Mm-hmm.

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And they still are an adult. They get to decide what they're going to do. We don't have control over them.

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About whether or not, but how can we be okay okay if they don't respond, what am I going to do?

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Right.

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How do I not let it bother me and I still am able to move forward and create the life that I want to be creating?

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That makes sense because then it's tough because what comes to my mind when you're talking right now is you specially need support when the co-parent On the other side is emotionally dysregulated.

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Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

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And that, you know, and that and you have been in a situation, if it feels like everything is all your fault.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And in fact, there is Bill Eddy has a podcast called It's All Your Fault. And Bill Eddy He was a psychologist, therapist slash lawyer and now he runs the high conflict institute new ways for new family where he teaches people

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Yeah.

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How to parenting skills when you have a high conflict parent And in a nutshell, high conflict personalities He characterizes they exhibit signs of maybe like a narcissistic personality trait, a borderline personality disorder antisocial, histrionic. Anyway, it's a whole listen to his podcast. It's or your fault. It makes you realize you're not going crazy.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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But going back to what Meg was saying. When you have a co-parent like that, you feel crazy.

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And so that's why they need you to be like, okay, someone's saying, hey, look.

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We're on this 50 50 one week on one week off parenting plan and last semester our son got straight A's and now it's your week and now in just this one week he's with you he's failing his classes.

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Yeah.

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Tell me, you know, then you'll be able to tell them Like, what would you say to this co-parent that's freaking out at you?

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Yeah, yeah. Well, okay. So one of my The first things that I love to do with folks is i love them to tell them Pretend like I was going to be an actor.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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And I was going to act like I was going to embody the role of your spouse or your ex, right? Like describe everything to me, like describe how they behave, describe how they make decisions, describe how they react to your text describe how

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Wow.

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Ah.

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You know, they are going to feel about you know, something your kid does or whatever, like give it all to me okay And so that I can really embody that person. Okay. And they, as soon as I opened the door there for them to tell me that it just like floods out, right? Like.

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Yeah.

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It's like they know exactly what's going to happen, right? It's so highly predictable.

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You're right. Yeah.

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Right. And so I say, okay. So it's really clear.

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Like how they're going to behave. Why are we surprised when they behave that way?

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Because we think We hope that they're going to do better.

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Right? Yes.

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Right. Right. So we hold out that hope that somehow it's going to be different.

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Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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But the impact of that on us Right. Is that we're in this constant state of like disappointment and frustration and resentment.

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Here we go again.

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As opposed right as opposed to us just being like oh Yep, it's a Tuesday.

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You know, in February, like, oh, it's time for them to Say it's all my fault and explode.

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Okay. Yep. Great. And so when we start really accepting them for how they behave.

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Then we start designing our life around, okay, this is probably how they're going to behave. And it might be option A, B, and C, right? Like it might not just be one, but this is my guess.

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Of like when I send this text, this is what they're going to do Oh, they chose B this time. What a surprise. Great.

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And now I'm moving forward. In a way that I had already planned out.

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Works real. Wait, what is this? What is this?

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And I have a force field down, right? I love talking about the force field. It's like my force field, right? So their emotional weather, I'm telling you, I'm telling you.

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Okay. Okay.

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Their emotional weather. Can't impact me. It can't get through to me.

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Because I have my force field. Okay.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yes. Yes.

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It's a force field. Yes. Okay, so they get to have all their big emotions. Woo, you're having a lot of big emotions, right? I mean, it's In a lot of ways, it's no different than when we had a toddler who was like, I don't want to get in the car seat. You are not going to buckle me in this car seat, right? And they're having all these big emotions and you're just like.

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Big emotions.

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I know, sweetie, you don't like it. That's okay like that's okay that you are having this temper tantrum because I'm still going to move forward.

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Right. And I'm still going to buckle you in your car seat and we're going to And we're going to keep going, right?

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Yeah, take a deep breath. I'm going to take a deep breath.

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I'm going to take a deep breath. You're allowed your big emotions and I keep going.

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Feel it. I keep going. Yeah.

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It's mine, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah, that's, you know, when you're dealing with that type of just emotionally dysregulated person, it is literally an adult, it is a toddler having a temper tantrum in an adult body.

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And that's what you've got to tell yourself. All right. Even though this is a 47 year old man.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Emotionally, he's acting man or woman. They're acting like a four-year-old. This is a toddler temper tantrum right now.

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Yeah. Yeah. And what they don't realize, right?

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They don't realize it. Mm-hmm.

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They think that everything that you do determines how they feel.

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Which is so odd. Right, because…

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Right? Right. But they are giving you the power They think when you text them this thing about a change of plans or a request for something.

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You know that that that impact like that determines how they feel.

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They don't realize they don't realize that how they feel is really about how they frame anything in their life, right? How they think about a text. They don't see the optional ways to think about.

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Mm-hmm.

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Something. Okay. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Just getting back to this is why I do one-on-ones work, right? Because getting that skill down so that you start predicting how they're going to act and You have your plan of how you'll respond.

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And you build the the Jedi level skill set of not letting their emotional weather impact yours?

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It's really a one-on-one kind of work to do.

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Yeah, that makes sense. I guess in my head, I was, and I get it, there are some people that could do this.

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And I think it's like in my head, I was almost kind of thinking sometimes, okay, so when you have something that When you are dealing with emotional dysregulation, my thought would be, okay, well then The coach works with mom.

00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:59.000

And then the coach works with dad. And then the next section, the coach can bring them next session, the coach can bring them together and say, hey.

00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:17.000

You know when Johnny got a got a C on his math quiz And then dad, you know, dad went and catastrophized like, oh my gosh, now he's going to fail And then, you know, can we like talk about that as a group and

00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:27.000

Or is that far-fetched?

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:32.000

Ah.

00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.000

Right.

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:41.000

Yeah. What? This to me is part of the transitioning from being spouses where we are… like emotionally entangled in a good way like i mean we are there to support each other, right? We are there to help meet each other's needs like we're there

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:48.000

As intimate partners like Because we want to be so close and we want to be so supportive of each other.

00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.000

Okay.

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:57.000

To this place where we're co-parents who were in the business of raising kids together.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000

Right. We are like business colleagues. We have this big project.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:04.000

Okay.

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.000

Yeah.

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:13.000

To raise these kids right But we don't depend on each other for help emotionally regulating.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000

It's not the other person's job anymore.

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:20.000

All right, say that again. Say that again. You got to say that again because that was… Really good.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:25.000

Yeah. So when we're in just co-parents now, instead of intimate partners.

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:26.000

Right.

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:32.000

We're not responsible for helping each other regulate our emotions.

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:42.000

And that's the crux of it right there. It's hard.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.000

Yeah. Business.

00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:48.000

Yeah. It's hard. And the pathway to get from the intimate partners to the co-parents who operate in kind of this business relationship is messy.

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.000

Right. It is.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:25:00.000

It's messy to get there. And generally, there's one party That's a very legal term. There's one person who it clicks for sooner than the other person, right? So if one person is like, okay, I'm not going to do emotional processing.

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:05.000

Yeah.

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:18.000

With my spouse anymore because that we're changing our relationship, right? And they lean on other people. They lean on friends. They lean on coaches or therapists to do the emotional processing.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:31.000

And they start communicating in a very direct. Clean, clear business like requests and expectations kind of thing.

00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:36.000

While the other person is still kind of like emotionally entangled.

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:47.000

Right. And so that can be part of like One of the most challenging parts of this is when you're starting to communicate differently.

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:59.000

But eventually, most folks Most folks, not all, get to a co-parenting relationship where both parties are just communicating very clearly.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:06.000

Oh, you know, Johnny's dentist appointment got canceled. It's now on Tuesday instead of on Monday.

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:12.000

Right. Or, you know. Would you be able to have the kids for one more night?

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:17.000

On this weekend. Yes or no, can you tell me in 24 hours? Thank you.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:31.000

Right. But it can be muddy to get there.

00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:32.000

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:41.000

Right. Okay, so I got it. So let me figure this out. Okay, so in my example where let's just say dad is freaking out because dad's like, I checked online and Right now, Johnny is failing four out of six classes during your week.

00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:47.000

Like what's going on? Junior year, it's Johnny's most important year and He was an A student and now he's failing half of his classes during your week.

00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000

Yeah.

00:26:51.000 --> 00:27:02.000

So instead of mom getting riled up in a way and saying like, why are you Like, why are you blaming me? It's like been one week. Let's have a reality check. You know, it's just.

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.000

Yeah.

00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:09.000

Mom could say like, hey. So if you apply, if mom disemotionally disentangles herself, because it's hard. It's hard, mom. Like we get it when someone is blaming you.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:13.000

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:20.000

And saying it's your fault. And it's hard not to get defensive and reactive. But if you think, okay.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:31.000

What are we, we're no longer this entangled, enmeshed spouses. We are in the business of co-parenting johnny So mom could say like.

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:51.000

You know, I understand, you know, I understand your concerns You've read some you've raised some good concerns here and you know what? I talked to johnny And Johnny's having a really hard time this week with transitioning And he's having a hard time focusing in school. And you can see that's impacted on his grades. But you know what?

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:59.000

If we show up there, if we show up together and support Johnny and say, you know what, son, we know this transition is difficult.

00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:06.000

And we, as your parents are here to support you through this.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:07.000

Mm-hmm.

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:19.000

He will get through this. And you'll come out better because he'll learn. He'll see it's in a way it's um When the child is transitioning and going back and forth, that teaches your child flexibility.

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:26.000

And isn't that a wonderful skill to learn in life how to be flexible, how to adapt to situations?

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:31.000

Yeah. And there could be a transition time where it's rough.

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.000

Yeah.

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:44.000

For some folks.

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.000

All right.

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:52.000

Right? Like you're saying. So I think the example of the response that you gave might work for some folks. So I think that this is like This is very customized, right? Again, knowing how your spouse tends to react. We're going to predict it. What do they need to see?

00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:02.000

In communication that you know best sets you up. Now, we can't control them how they're going to react, but what do they need, right? So someone else in that same situation might say.

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.000

Yeah.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.000

I hear your concerns. I encourage you to talk to Johnny about how he's feeling.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:10.000

Mm-hmm.

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.000

Oh, oh. Just like that.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:17.000

Yeah.

00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:28.000

And like what's going on for him, right? We're dealing with a high school We're dealing with a high schooler, right? So like if you're you're at home and you've talked to Johnny and you have a good sense of what's going on.

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.000

Hmm.

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:36.000

But you know that words from your mouth or words from your text don't land, right? Like they just aren't valued in the same way by your co-parent.

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:44.000

Then the encouragement be, okay, you have a relationship. I encourage you to talk to him.

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:45.000

Oh.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:58.000

When he comes back and figure out, right? Someone else might say I appreciate that. I also I'm concerned. I don't want his grades to drop Let's see how it goes for the next month.

00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000

And then check in on it. Right?

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:08.000

Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, a kid's not going to fail school just for getting bad assignments for one week.

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:22.000

Right, right. Like, who knows? Like, who knows what else is going on and what else is going to evolve so I think there can be a lot of different ways to respond but

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.000

That's why you need a coach.

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:28.000

All of the ways though, but all of the ways, let's point this out, all of the ways that we've given all the examples, right?

00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:33.000

Okay.

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000

Super cool. Five paragraphs.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:43.000

Are super simple. This is not this long diatribe around, well, here's the reasons or defending yourself Right. Or saying.

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:47.000

Well, if this hadn't happened a year ago or like, it's none of that. It's like super super Simple, right?

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.000

Right, right. Right. No, you definitely don't want to get defending because then that's just going to go this back and forth, back and forth.

00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:58.000

So, yeah.

00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000

Mm-hmm.

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:03.000

Bill Eddy talks about, and I have this book, it's called Biff or co-parents, and it means brief.

00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:08.000

Yeah.

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.000

Yeah.

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:17.000

Informative, friendly, and firm. And you don't want to write more than like three sentences, four sentences at the most, but it's an excellent resource and I give it to clients.

00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:21.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.000

I use it myself a lot in just all aspects

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:30.000

Yeah. And I love it too. I also give it to clients and the friendly, sometimes I tweak that, right? As opposed to friendly, I like to think about like business professional.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:39.000

Okay. Yes. Yes.

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000

Right, right.

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:51.000

Right. Like that's kind of the level like you're not trying to be buddies You're trying to be like a respectful business colleague. That's the level that you interacting on. And what I have found, I've tested this. It's kind of fun, is if you draft an email.

00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000

Okay.

00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.000

And then you go and you put it in like a chat GPT or one of the AIs and you say to it.

00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.000

Make this biff. And you just say BIFF, It knows it. Yes. And it spits it out to me.

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:07.000

Being old Biff? Because I've i've… I am dying because I've done this. Make this better.

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:11.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000

I love that. I'm going to try it.

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:18.000

Make it Biff. And it like whoop. Cleans it right up. And essentially what it's doing is it's taking out the emotional piece of it.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:22.000

Wow. Yes.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.000

It's keeping it factual. It's keeping it clean and simple. Yeah.

00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:40.000

Oh my gosh, you just blew my mind right now. This is going to help me with my clients so much when they're dealing with Because, you know, I get it. My clients can't afford to be in a way emailing me all the time. So I'm going to tell my team to suggest it to my clients.

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:47.000

Yeah.

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:48.000

Yeah. So good.

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:54.000

Like, hey, use chat GPT, use AI, say make it. Wow. Wow. And this is for Gemini too, right?

00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000

I'm sure. I'm sure it's in all of them. Yeah, okay.

00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:00.000

I use a Gemini. Oh, so exciting.

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:03.000

Okay, so the next thing, and maybe we touched upon this.

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:19.000

Going from like is there a specific… or tool other than what we talked about, how you go from emotionally connected spouses to business like co-parents.

00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:20.000

Okay.

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:27.000

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important to find other support for processing what's going on, processing how you're feeling. And it's really important that that support is not your kids.

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000

Oh. Oh, true.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:37.000

Let's just point that out. You're not going to process with them how well dad didn't respond To my email yet.

00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:50.000

It's all on him and he's really bad at responding like that is not… not helpful to them, right? It harms their relationship. It makes things more complicated For them, you're putting them in the conflict.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.000

But you can have friends, right? You can have friends where you have a venting session and you're like.

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:56.000

Yeah.

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:03.000

Okay.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000

Okay.

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:11.000

This drives me crazy, right? So definitely it's not about like, oh, I shouldn't have any feelings about what he emailed me or she emailed me, right? No, you can have all your feelings just have an outlet for them.

00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:23.000

Okay. But I think that goes to where in a way as part of you being the divorce co-parenting coach, you're teaching your clients the skill set, the tools, how to, in a way.

00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:28.000

Disconnect or disengage from this intimate partner relationship to being co-parents.

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:29.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:37.000

And it's not so and it's not so it's It's a series because it's a series

00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:38.000

Yeah.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:45.000

It is. I mean, because it's an identity shift. I mean, it's a huge, huge identity shift, right? And with any big identity shift like this, whether it was our choice to get divorced or not.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.000

Yeah.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:35:00.000

There's grief. There's grief that's a part of it, right? And it's complicated because we don't know what the future, like what we're going to feel like in the future like who are we going to be when we're not married and Yeah, exactly.

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:05.000

Who are we? Yeah, we lose this identity of being a spouse um Yeah, you're right.

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.000

Oh, it takes time. You know, it takes time.

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:24.000

It takes time. I kind of almost like visually see it right in Especially if you're in a, you know, you're in a long-term relationship, whatever, and you have all of these different cords that connect you in this intimate partner relationship

00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:37.000

And part of that, as you go through this process is learning how to cut or disentangle those cords and It is not an easy process. And how do you do that without blowing up your life and blowing up your life

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:44.000

The kids in the process as well by getting them involved. And that's why they need someone like you to kind of coach them through it.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:51.000

Yeah. And I always emphasize like get yourself a lot of support.

00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:52.000

Okay, like therapists, right.

00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:07.000

Through this process. Folks if folks Yeah, most of my clients have a therapist um Parents often come in and say, well, should I get a therapist for my kids?

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:08.000

Yeah.

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:19.000

Right. And there's a few different factors on that. One, it depends on their age and what's really going to be useful. But what I say is, are you supported enough? Because you already have this close, close relationship with your kids, right?

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:24.000

They like they're going to feel most comfortable, most at ease just with you right now talking to you about what's going on.

00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.000

Okay.

00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:34.000

Do you have the support to be able to talk to them and support them? And then if they need more support, we can talk about like, okay.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:40.000

Finding a therapist for them. But remember that as they're going through this whole process.

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:49.000

If we're saying okay Like, let's try therapy for them they have to develop a whole new relationship with a trusting adult, right? It's not going to be a snap your fingers and like suddenly they're able to process everything and so forth.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:54.000

Yeah.

00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.000

So I always back up and say first for the parent.

00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:06.000

Do you have as much support? Can you be in a conversation with your kid about how they're really feeling as they're navigating this?

00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000

Okay.

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:12.000

And if you don't feel like you can have that kind of conversation, then you need to get to that place where you can.

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:19.000

Where you can be in that conversation with them. Before you're trying to kind of outsource that conversation too.

00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000

A therapist. That's my two cents on it.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:25.000

Oh, okay. Okay, that makes sense.

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:35.000

I'm not opposed at all to therapy for kids you know, all of that but all of that I think sometimes We can jump to that.

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:38.000

Before we do the work for ourselves to be able to support our kids in that way.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:53.000

You know, that's a good point because it ultimately you've got to you know going going through a messy divorce, I see my therapist weekly and it is tremendous for helping process through things and also how do I show up for my kid?

00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:56.000

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.000

How do I be there and support my kid?

00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:04.000

Yeah, that's awesome.

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:16.000

Now, in terms of a co-parenting coach, like, how does a co-parenting coach and work with customizing a parenting plan.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:31.000

Yeah, so we can… I can work with… any of my clients on going through the parts of a parenting plan and explaining to them what they are, right? So we've got like the residential schedule or how decisions are made

00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:47.000

And we can brainstorm You know, for your specific situation what might feel really good to you?

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.000

Okay.

00:38:48.000 --> 00:39:00.000

What are some of the different options? What is unique to your family situation right like Um… And we kind of like have all those ideas so that they can kind of get to a place of like this is this would, you know, these three options would feel really good to me.

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:14.000

And then they can go into a meeting with their attorney or collaboration or mediation and already kind of have a sense of like Here are the things that are really important to me.

00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:17.000

And here's some ideas of how I think things might work.

00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:27.000

You know, always with the idea of like it takes Going to take both of you, right? You both have to agree to it.

00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:31.000

You can start by better understanding what you would really like.

00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:38.000

So what are, can you just briefly touch upon just what are the four main parts of a parenting plan that you would help someone?

00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.000

Yeah. So decision making. Right? Conflict resolution.

00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:47.000

Decision-making is one. Conflict resolution.

00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:50.000

Right. Parenting schedule for the residential schedule as it's called, right?

00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:04.000

Parenting. Right. Residential schedule and four.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.000

The latest other provisions? Yeah.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:12.000

Yeah. And then four, I kind of just, I mean, you might have a different category, but I have like all these miscellaneous things, right? There's There's the other provisions, which sometimes we put into the legal parenting plan and sometimes we actually

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:28.000

Will craft, I won't craft, but they can work with their attorney or mediator to craft kind of a co-parenting agreement So there might be things that aren't really legally enforceable, right? But are important to you.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:29.000

Okay.

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:42.000

Right. So, okay, we both value the kids getting to spend time getting to spend with their grandparents who are getting really old.

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:43.000

Okay. Yeah.

00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:51.000

And so we're going to both support an annual visit to see grandparents right or you know some you know something like that. Or here's how we want to handle the first cell phone Or here's how we want to handle driver's ed. We can put kind of intentions

00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.000

Yeah.

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:56.000

Okay.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:01.000

And that's kind of, it's nice to be able to work through all of that stuff, even though it doesn't necessarily need to be in the legal parenting plan.

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:13.000

Right. Got it. And you know, Meg, I would love to continue this conversation with you and have you come back So we can dive into like the four different parts of a parenting plan.

00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:18.000

Yeah.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.000

That would be awesome. I would love to do that. Yay.

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:35.000

Yay. Well, there you go, folks. You just heard it. We're going to come back and we're going to devote the next four episodes into The four main parts of a parenting plan.

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:36.000

Yay.

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:52.000

With divorce and parenting coach Mae Gluckman. Meg, thank you so much for coming on today. And I'm really excited to dive into you on The next four part series of how to create a parenting plan and with a… Is this just in the collaborative law context or

00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.000

No, I think it really could be. Let's say that it's for outside of court, right? So it could be collaborative, it could be in mediation, or it could be a DIY.

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:01.000

Okay. Yeah. Diy. Ooh, love it.

00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:04.000

Yeah. Kitchen table. Yeah.

00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:11.000

Yeah, I love it. Okay. Well, there you go. And Meg, oh my gosh, how can people get a hold of you to work with you?

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:17.000

Oh, thank you. So I have my website, which is just my name, megluckman.com.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:18.000

And you can go there. Yep. G-l-u-c-k-m-a-n.

00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:23.000

Spell your last name, please.

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:37.000

And I have my podcast linked there. Welcome to the other side. I have a blog. I have a ton of resources you can download from there as well. And then if you're interested in learning more about coaching yourself, you can schedule a consult call with me.

00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.000

From there.

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:45.000

Awesome. And before you sign off, Meg, what is a fun fact about yourself that we wouldn't know just from today or looking at you.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.000

Oh my gosh. Well, the first thing that came to mind, because I'm already starting to think about gardening is like my number one favorite thing to garden is potatoes.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:55.000

Okay.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:03.000

Because it's like such a surprise, right? Like you have no idea what is under the ground?

00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:04.000

And I'm always like, every time I harvest potatoes, I'm like Jackpot.

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:12.000

Wow. Oh my gosh. I love potatoes. Can you give me some?

00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:16.000

I thought for sure you're going to say some sort of flower. I would never have.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.000

Oh, no. I love growing potatoes.

00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.000

All right. Well, you better give me some when you start growing because you don't look, we don't live that far away.

00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:26.000

All right. No, we don't at all.

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:45.000

Okay. All right. Well, there you go. And again, join us back next time when we have our Featured and distinguished guests may gluckman join us for a four-part series about creating a parenting plan.

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:46.000

Thank you, Lonnie. Appreciate you.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:44:07.000

Thank you again, Meg. This is so much fun. Okay, and thank you all my listeners and you podcast viewers for listening to another episode of the Al Qiona Law podcast. We talk about anything and everything that intersects with the eras of family law and divorce. Until next time, be well.