The Akiona Law Podcast: Parenting Plan Series with Meg Gluckman Part 3

In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast,  host Ululani "Lani" Akiona is joined once again by Meg Gluckman, divorce and co-parenting coach and host of "Welcome to the Other Side" podcast. In this third episode of the parenting plan series, Lani and Meg dive deep into dispute resolution within your parenting plan. They'll explore both informal and formal conflict resolution methods you can specify to navigate disagreements. Tune in as they break down key approaches like mediation, arbitration, and counseling, providing valuable insights on how to foster effective co-parenting.

 Update 8/19/2025: Since the recording of that podcast, Washington courts have released a new parenting plan form.

Specifically, the section we referred to as "Section 14. Other" in the podcast is now designated as “Section 10. Other” in the court’s new parenting plan form.

Transcript

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Two, one. Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce. And I am Ululani Akiona.

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And today we are continuing our four-part series with Meg Gluckman.

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Mig is a divorce and co-parenting coach. She is also a host of Welcome to the Other Side podcast.

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Meg specializes in supporting parents, whether they have toddlers.

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Tweens or 30 somethings navigate these types of challenging life transitions with grace and resilience.

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Meg, welcome to the welcome back

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Thank you, Lani. I'm glad to be back. Glad to be diving into this topic too.

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This is a really important one.

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Yeah, and thank you. You know, part three, what we're talking about is we're talking talking about the dispute res for those of you who haven't heard the earlier podcast.

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Part one, we were talking about the residential schedule, which is essentially the fancy word for Where's your kid going to sleep at night? Number two, we talked about decision making in terms of a parenting plan. And today is number three of this four-part series, which is dispute resolution.

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Conflict resolution. In your parenting plan.

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Yeah, so good.

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So, you know, okay, so thoughts. Thoughts how do we do

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Yeah. So my first thought that I'd love to share with folks is just to recognize that married parents have conflict.

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And non-married parents are going to have conflict. So it's really, really.

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All right. Good point.

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To have conflict with parents like we have different ideas about how our kids should be raised.

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And what our thought of, you know, quote unquote, what's best for them?

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Right.

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Is can be different whether we're married or whether we're not.

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This isn't something that's really unique to divorced parents, but we are required as part of the parenting plan to have a… dispute resolution process.

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Included in the plan. But just like… married parents would do.

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We're going to work out informally tons of conflict.

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Right.

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We're going to figure out problems left and right, you know, little things about drop offs and pickups and you know when things get left behind or, you know, should our kid go to this specialist or should our kid go to this summer camp?

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Like we're going to work out lots and lots of conflicts informally and the better the skills we have around communication the more things are going to fall into that.

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Bucket of informal conflict resolution Before we get into more of a formal process.

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And I just want to make a comment about, so the parenting plan, it outlines, you know, different methods about how are you going to resolve these conflicts.

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Bye.

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Like, for example, we talked about decision making, one example of decision making could be education and that can include summer camps so how did what happens if you and your ex disagree about where your child should go to summer camp or more, I guess I'm going to use a really common example, which is extracurricular activities.

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Sports, how many sports per season should your child participate? And just especially when a child gets older and a child gets into club sports and that type of intensity and practices.

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Which can then impinge on another parent's time. And maybe the other parent doesn't have the bandwidth or the time to take the child to all of these many practices and games that club sports require. So what do you do when there's a disagreement?

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And that's when the dispute resolution or conflict resolution kicks into your parenting plan.

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And there's a couple of methods that people can specify how to resolve disagreements in your parenting plan, such as extra extracurricular activities.

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One of them being mediation, the other being arbitration and the other being counseling and being counseling I'm going to just make a comment really quickly that in terms of the counseling provision.

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How I often see it utilized as in my collaborative divorce cases as utilizing the parenting coaching.

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Mm-hmm.

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To resolve a disagreement or if you have a child specialist in a case using that child specialist in lieu of counseling to resolve the disagreement in your parenting plan.

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Otherwise, in a traditional litigated divorce case. As a family law divorce attorney, I've always gone with the drawback of mediation. Did you have thoughts about that, Mick?

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Yeah, just on the co-parent coach option there. Even if you don't do a collaborative case, you can specify that we're going to use a co-parenting coach.

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Oh.

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Yeah.

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And you do have the option of putting a name in there. So if you have worked with someone before, you can put who your primary, you know, your preliminary or your first choice would be.

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To work with. But that's just It's an option. It's out there, you know, as well.

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Right.

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I have also seen folks specifically decide that they want to work with specifically a child specialist, which is like a child psychologist and so forth if it's something particular to that seems like they would be the right kind of person to help

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Help make those decisions. In mediation.

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I would say probably the vast majority of parenting plans specify mediation as that first dispute resolution process. If you're unfamiliar with mediation.

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Just to share a little bit, like in Washington state, you can hire a mediator.

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There's tons of them. You can hire one who is an attorney.

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And who has mediation training. You can hire mediators A family law attorney, yes.

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A family law attorney. Family law divorce attorney.

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Yeah, there's other mediators that have a mental health background, but went through a mediation training.

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Yep.

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And then there's also other mediators that you can work with, especially if you're in a low income situation that we have dispute resolution centers in almost every county in Washington state.

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Yeah.

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And so you can also go there and use a mediator who has The standard mediation training, but then also usually there's a specialty in family law.

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Or family issues. So just to give you a little more background on mediation.

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Right.

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Yeah, to chime in, there's a difference between mediators in terms of when I mentioned the family law divorce attorneys, those are your private mediators.

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And like, for example, in my litigated family law and divorce cases.

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After we go through your temporary order steering And the next step that we utilize to finalize a divorce case short of going to trial is mediation.

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And in that type of typical scenario, each side is represented by attorneys and they agree to use a private mediator often a family law divorce attorney who has practice, usually the meat eaters I use are those who practice for like 20 plus years because they really they really know their stuff.

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Otherwise, I do have a client that it's because the other side his baby's mama is unrepresented, he is going to save his money on fees he and her are going to utilize that dispute resolution center to see and to see if they can try and reach an agreement on their own.

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Because that way he doesn't have to pay me for my time.

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He doesn't to be there at mediation. He doesn't have to pay for private mediator because as you mentioned.

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In terms of the dispute resolution centers you don't have to pay those mediators an hourly fee. You pay them that that mediation fee that they charge And then you're good to go. And usually the mediation is it's a half, it's from 9 to 12.

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There you go. You know. Yeah.

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That's awesome. That's awesome.

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9 a.m. To 12 a.m. So… Well, because you just you're just emailing about today. I was like, hey, I can be available if you have questions and Yeah, that's something that, you know, think about as well.

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Where I don't, you know, honestly, I don't think they're going to be able to reach agreement, but you know, who knows?

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Who knows? You never know. What can happen?

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Right. I mean, and that's important to just like point out, even though it sounds it's probably pretty obvious to folks The reason to use the dispute resolution process is to reach an agreement.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Right. That is what you're trying to get to. And being able to go into those mediations or working with a co-parenting coach um and you know bringing a creative open mind to those conversations as much as possible to find a solution, right? Like being willing to go in and say.

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I don't know how this might turn out, right? We're feeling like we're in polar opposites of this issue right now.

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But maybe there's a third way. Maybe there's something we haven't thought of that somebody can help us get to.

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Because that's the purpose of it, right?

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Right. Having that. So mediators are objective, neutral third parties And so they don't have any skin in the game, so to speak. So it is nice to have that fresh set of eyes because your attorney is aligned with you. They're your advocate. And sometimes it's hard

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Mm-hmm.

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To kind of step away and not advocate not advocate And that's why you need that neutral third party. And just to also clarify, mediators cannot make decisions about a case.

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They cannot… They're not there to say who's right and who's wrong and this is what's going to happen.

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A mediator is strictly there to help parties reach compromise, reach an agreement.

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And hopefully, because you and the whole goal of reaching this agreement is so that you can be done.

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Mm-hmm.

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And you don't have to resolve your case any further in court, which the next step after mediation would be trial.

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Yeah, and maybe you can talk a little bit about that, Lonnie. Like, are there times when You can use arbitration.

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Instead of going to trial.

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Hey, you know what? That's a really good question, Meg. You know, I've done this before where i've done this before Man, this is what I love doing to do. I've done this in cases where, so let's say we're remediating a divorce.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm. Okay.

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Or a parenting plan or child support. And we reached agreement on the parenting plan Yet we don't agree on child support. So the next step is that with agreement between myself and the other parent's attorney, we tell the mediator hey

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Mm-hmm.

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Now that you spent like 10 hours with us And you've heard the issues about the child support Can you now arbitrate the child support dispute?

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Hmm.

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And I love doing that piece because then you've already have someone, again, that's been with us for like 10 hours has heard everything, understands the issue And because it is a family law divorce attorney who, like I said, has like 20 plus years of experience, they're pretty knowledgeable.

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And so it is, I prefer using that person to that person help me make a decision.

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Rather than my client spending all this time and money for trial.

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And hearing this issue before a judge and a lot of time When the matters go before judges, their former prosecutors are public defenders.

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And they don't understand family law issues as well as a mediator who was practicing family law for 20 plus years.

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That's what I like to do in terms of shortcutting things.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah, could you maybe for the audience, if Arbitrator is kind of a unfamiliar word Do you want to kind of define what the difference is and and What would shift?

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Like, how could you go from being a mediator to an arbitrator?

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You know, that's a good point. Well, so again, so like one of the ships, right, we talked about the mediator being someone who's neutral on objective and they don't make decisions. Well, when they shift to an arbitrator.

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Mm-hmm.

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They're essentially making a decision. They have the… power and authority to make a decision just as a jurist.

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Just as a family law judge or family law commissioner will be able to make a decision.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the next step would be is that myself and my counterpart attorney would agree that that arbitrator's decision is binding.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Meaning the parties are bound and have to follow what this person decides because I don't want to have the arbitrator hear everything And then maybe I submit additional writings, declarations as a part of the issue.

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The arbitrator issues a decision and then typically the statute allows that decision to be in a party to have it put before the court again.

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So then we say, no, it's binding. No going back to the court.

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Binding. Yep.

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I see. Yeah, right, right. And when you say that you and the other attorney agree to now have The mediator arbitrate It's actually not, I mean, the two of you are posing it to your clients and your clients are agreeing

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Yes. Versus going to court.

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To do arbitration versus going to court, right? So in the end it Like it still is the clients deciding yes We want this person who had been mediating for us now to arbitrate this last decision because we don't want to go to court.

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Right. And essentially arbitration is short for an informal hearing that results in the decision.

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And again, like as you mentioned, the parties will then agree that the mediator can then shift from a neutral person to a person who has authority to make a decision.

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Yeah.

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So that thank you for pointing that out. You know, I'm gonna one thing I wanted to segue and switch gears on is that you know, I do family law divorce mediations and it's funny to kind of shift from, okay, first of all

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I apologize to the family law attorneys that I've used as mediators.

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For any, you know, for me getting riled up during my family law mediations because man Now that I've mediated cases, it's like, woo.

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Hard work. It's hard work for sure.

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It is hard work. It is hard work, but it is also very exciting. I swear it is so exciting to help parties reach compromise and come up with that solution.

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And just kind of just brainstorm. I mean, I love it.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's so fun.

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And as a coach, I mean, I… Yeah, I also love, you know, helping folks come up with these solutions that they just like weren't even on their radar.

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Yeah.

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Right. For, you know, and like, I'll, I'll give you a really simple one. Well, I don't know that it's simple, but you know, a conflict When we have… One parent who wants one kind of residential schedule And one parent that wants

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A different residential schedule. So say the first one wants to go one week on, one week off.

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And the other person you know wants to split the weeks some way so that they're never a full week on a full week off right And there's been multiple times when I have brought forth the idea of Well, what if we did week on, week off during the summer?

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Mm-hmm.

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And we stuck to this other schedule during the school year, right? And their eyes just kind of like bug out of their head, like, wait a second, that's an option.

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Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

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Right. Like or like Sounds like because of the age of the kids, you're not ready to do week on, week off.

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Right. Mm hmm.

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Yeah.

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What if we waited two years And then we started that. Wait, that's an option, right? It's just like sometimes we get so stuck in just kind of a black or white or binary or You know, thinking it has to be a certain way

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Yeah, right.

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Just bringing in a… A neutral third party who might have some different perspectives or different You know, can ask some different questions can really shift everything. So I think it's important to to just… for ourselves that if we get to a point of

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Needing. Some conflict resolution support or dispute resolution support, it's not a failure.

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Right.

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Right.

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On our parts, you know, like we are just The next thing that we need to do And we're just continuing to co-parent together and move forward.

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Right?

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Yeah, that's a good point. Again, I think like there is something to be said about that dynamic is that, you know, when you're in that and because it takes a lot out of you.

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Mm-hmm.

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Energetically energetically it is sometimes, and you can, you can get kind of stuck in tunnel vision and it's hard to see the forest through the trees.

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And I personally love the fact that in terms of the way our court system here in Washington operates, that a lot of times if you've got a disagreement.

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About extracurricular activities you're required to do mediation before you bring that to court.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. And part of that, just like you're saying, right, it's because the court wants to save family's time and money going to court, but also because the court is busy enough As it is, right? And it doesn't want to

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Right. Yeah.

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Really decide whether or not Timmy should do sleep away soccer camp this year or not right like we got a lot of other big things that we've got to decide so You know, that's the idea is like, let's try these other methods of resolving conflict before bringing it all the way to the court.

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Should we talk about when mediation is not required in a family law divorce case? I feel like we should Okay.

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Yeah, go for it. You lead on it.

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Okay. So I think one thing we need to point out that there are situations where let's say if you've got a family law restraining order in effect.

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Or any type of domestic violence protection order mediation, you do not you are not required to go to mediation in that instance. Your parenting plan can say because there is a restraining order to domestic violence protection order in you can bypass the mediation and go back to court because a lot of times, right, there's that power imbalance

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And there's no sense that it's hard for a person not to kind of give into that we want to protect that person from that course of control that dominated that relationship between the I want to say the abuser and the survivor.

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Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out.

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Now, but I do want to point out too, now, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I've also done mediation with my clients when there was a domestic violence or protection order in effect.

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Because it was still cheaper for my client to go to court because we were on Zoom.

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Mm-hmm.

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So my client didn't have to worry about leaving the building when that person is there or running to the person in the hallway.

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You really are, you know, you're in separate breakout rooms and the media just goes back and forth between the breakout room. So I'm not safe in that, in that sense.

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There is a safe space for my client to participate in mediation with me there.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that really is a prerequisite to be able to participate in mediation is that both parties feel safe.

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Yeah.

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Right. And I have heard of examples of if there if there is a meeting in person Again, being able to use two separate rooms Where the mediator is going back and forth, we call it shuttle mediation where they're shuttling between

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Right.

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Like two rooms, whether Zoom rooms or actual different conference rooms And then also, you know, protection mechanisms so that say the person who has been abused you know who has been abused comes to the session 15 minutes after the other person has already arrived and leaves 15 minutes

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Right.

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Before the other person and has a a friend or a family member, somebody who's kind of a companion with them who might be waiting for them in the lobby, like that kind of stuff to make sure folks feel safe. Yeah.

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Very important.

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Yeah. Have you come across, have you done that in terms of your parenting coaching where maybe there was an extremely volatile issue or maybe something happened where you didn't have them together, I guess, in the same space. So you're kind of going back and forth.

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Okay. Okay. Oh.

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No, because I really don't do high conflict mediation in that way. So my role would more be around supporting one of the parties as they're preparing for their mediation.

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Okay. Ah.

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And helping them get into the best kind of mental state possible to feel grounded and calm.

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As they go into it you know and and that actually just, if I can make a little plug for myself like i have for myself Yeah, go ahead.

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Well, yeah. Well, let me ask you this. Meg, how do you support someone As a divorce coach through mediation, tell us your process.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, well, the resource I wanted to share that I have up on my website is called Five Questions to Help You Prepare.

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For any divorce meeting. So whether it's mediation or just meeting with your attorney.

00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.000

Okay.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:34.000

And so these are five questions that I have all of my clients when they're feeling anxious or stressed about going into a meeting like a mediation, I have them work through these five questions where they're really identifying like, what am I afraid of?

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:35.000

Okay. Mm-hmm.

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:50.000

What am I worried the other person might say? During this mediation, right? So we just like We take the steam out of any words that you think might really be hurtful or hurtful scary to hear the other person say, right? We just kind of predict it we expect

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:58.000

Those words to show up and then we show up Okay, how do I want to respond or not respond? How do I want to take care of my nervous system If the other person does say those words.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:04.000

Mm-hmm.

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:14.000

And then we really look for where do I have control? Where do I have agency in this process?

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.000

Ah, okay.

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:21.000

So what are the issues that I want to raise? What information do I want to make sure I get? What questions do I want to ask?

00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:27.000

What will make this a success for me? No matter how the other person shows up.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.000

Oh. Wow.

00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:38.000

Right. So how can I feel like this was a successful Use of my time and resources and energy.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.000

No matter how the other person shows up, because I can't control them.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:43.000

Yeah.

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:52.000

So for a lot of my clients. They will say, well, here's the information i want to be able to get out of this process.

00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.000

Right. Or this meeting. Or, you know, I just really want to practice saying out loud what I really want.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:00.000

Okay.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.000

Okay.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:10.000

For a lot of people, a lot of parents like a lot of people they haven't actually like they they haven't articulated What's really important to them. And for them to just say that out loud in a meeting is really

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.000

True.

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:24.000

It's really big, right? Yeah, so we try to just figure out what is in your control as you go into this meeting.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:35.000

And… Make sure they have a good understanding depending on what kind of meeting it is, right? Is it a mediation or is it, are they doing the collaborative process?

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:40.000

And they're having a full team meeting. Help them understand what to expect.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.000

In each of those meetings. No.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.000

Can you summarize your questions again, just really quickly? Yeah.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.000

I set them in a random order so Let's see if I can summarize them again.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.000

Okay.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.000

Um so Yeah. So like, what are you worried about going into this meeting?

00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:01.000

Well, just state them.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.000

What are you worried about? Okay.

00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.000

What are you afraid the other person might say? Yeah. What do you want to do if they say that?

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:14.000

Okay, what are you afraid the other person may say?

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000

Okay.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:29.000

And we kind of like go down and there's a few like follow-up questions about like like down that rabbit hole of if they say that What do you want to do? How do you want to feel? You know, sometimes it's just like, I just want to take a deep breath.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:30.000

How do you want to respond? Yeah. Right, right.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:38.000

And yeah, how do you want to respond? It might not be actually a response, right? It might just be Okay, I'm just going to let it land.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.000

And I'm going to doodle on my paper for a minute.

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.000

I breathe. Yeah.

00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:48.000

Because I'm just like not, I'm not responding right What do you want to get out of the meeting?

00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.000

What do you want to get out of the meeting? Okay.

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:56.000

Right. And then what will make this meeting a success?

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.000

Yeah.

00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:02.000

We'll make this meeting a success. Okay. Got it. You know, one thing that I think I was listening to somebody said this. Oh, I know. Yes, I was, I remember it was a podcast I was listening to.

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.000

Mm-hmm.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:14.000

And part of like, how do you want to respond? Like, I want to go back and touch upon what you said because a response doesn't necessarily have to be a verbal response like you mentioned.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:15.000

No.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:27.000

It could be like, all right. I heard about this is what I heard. Okay, so I hear it I recognize it. How does that make me feel oh I feel a little bit irritated.

00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:32.000

Ooh, I feel a little bit skeptical. Ooh, I feel a little bit annoyed. Okay, you know what?

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.000

I recognize that feeling and I'm going to let it go.

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.000

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:36.000

Yeah. There you go. Let it float away. Yeah.

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.000

I'm just going to lift it, you know, let it drift down the river I'm going to slow down.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:58.000

Yeah. And here's an example. A lot of folks are afraid of kind of grand statements that the other person might make, right? Like, I'm never paying child support or I want full custody or you're a horrible parent or a horrible

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:01.000

Yeah.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:04.000

You know, because you never feed them broccoli, you don't deserve to have them.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:09.000

Yeah.

00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:17.000

Ever.

00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:25.000

Or you're not getting a penny of spousal maintenance, even though you paid at home for like 24 years taking care of the kids.

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.000

Yeah. Right.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:33.000

Ever at your house, you know, or I'm keeping the house or you're not getting a penny of retirement like any of those Or yeah, spousal support right Right, right. So there's like all these grandiose statements And what I really emphasize is like, okay, let's just expect

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000

Let's expect that the other person is going to say those words.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:38.000

Let's expect it.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.000

Yeah. Uh-huh.

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:47.000

Right. And what we are going to differentiate between is them saying those words And the final outcome of this whole process.

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.000

Okay. Uh-huh.

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:54.000

Right. They say those words. That does not automatically mean it's the final outcome.

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.000

Oh. Point. Yeah.

00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:01.000

Right? They say… Right. I'm keeping the house.

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000

I'm keeping now. Yeah.

00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:09.000

And you're not like, you're not settled on that. That doesn't mean that's the final outcome by any means, right?

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:15.000

And when you're working with good professionals. They know that.

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000

Right.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:22.000

They know that there's going to be grandiose statements sometimes at the beginning of the process.

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:32.000

And we're still going to work through the process, whether it's a mediator, whether it's divorce attorneys, a divorce coach, a financial neutral.

00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:43.000

Like, they're like, yep, you can say whatever you want at the beginning of the process and we're still going to work through the process to get to get to get to get to our our final agreement.

00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:44.000

So differentiating between those grandiose words, well, yep, those are words that were said.

00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:50.000

Yeah.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.000

And we still have a whole process to work through. To get there.

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:06.000

And you know, it's really interesting. I think what, I mean, like in terms of that really big picture concept of mediation, when someone makes a grandiose statement in a way that's those are positions People come in mediation and they state their position

00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.000

Mm-hmm.

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:19.000

And what I like to do in terms of when I'm meeting, when I'm mediating cases, I like to get behind the positions and get to these values.

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.000

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:36.000

Values what is your goal? And I think that kind of comes in hand in hand with the whole collaborative divorce process and what your high end goal here like we're moving beyond a position where I want spousal maintenance.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:45.000

For the next, I want spousal maintenance of $3,000 for the next 10 years. That's like a position. And then we need to get behind it.

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.000

And figure out what's your goal here, what's your value behind this?

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.000

Yep. Yeah.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:56.000

And normally when you kind of dig a little bit deeper, then you find out A lot of times there's an underlying fear well Yeah.

00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:59.000

That's it. That's it, right? It's the goals. It's the values, and it's the fears.

00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.000

Yeah. Yeah, right.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:09.000

And nobody leads when you're hearing the grandiose statements, nobody's leading with their fear.

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.000

Right. But that's underneath it all. Underneath it all. Yeah.

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.000

That's underneath it all. Yeah.

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.000

Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.000

Wow.

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.000

So good.

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000

So good stuff. Trying to get behind those fears. Especially when it comes to kids.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.000

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's Yeah, yeah.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.000

Losing time. Yep.

00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:40.000

It's the big stuff, right? It's the big stuff The big heart stuff.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:41.000

You know?

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:53.000

Within there. Yeah. And what it means about you, you know, I mean, that's what does sharing custody or, you know, a certain kind of residential schedule, what does it mean about you? What do you make it mean about you

00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:59.000

Yeah, there's a lot of deep identity work. That's hidden in this process.

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:08.000

Yeah.

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.000

Mm-hmm.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:18.000

Yeah. And what would you tell someone who is you know because again we're going to go back to the example of the kids the residential schedule right where a lot of times people come in all the time with positions like I want a 50 50 parenting plan.

00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.000

Mm-hmm.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:29.000

So let's say if you were representing the party and let's just say it's a mom and let's just say it's a mom that wants a 50 50 parenting plan.

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:46.000

But… let's just say let's just say because of the mom's work schedule or, you know, let's say dad has more free time Let's say dad has more free time to take the kids to be involved in extracurricular activities.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:56.000

Let's say dad is the one helping the kids with the homework. We're not here to say that mom is not helping, but she's just operating a different aspect.

00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.000

Mm-hmm.

00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:02.000

Because she's, let's just say she's busy working And the mom is saying, well, I want 50 50.

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:03.000

Mm-hmm.

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:13.000

What would you like, how would you coach the mom that aspect going into mediation Do I make sense?

00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:14.000

Okay.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:18.000

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that there's a few different angles to it, right? So there's a very practical angle of like.

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:22.000

Okay.

00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.000

Okay, what would this actually look like? So if you can't be there.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:38.000

You know, after school with the kids, what are the kids what is your vision of what the kids would be doing, right? So it's like getting into some of the practicalities of what does that actually look like?

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:49.000

And then I like to, of course, go to the deeper level of So let's say it's a 60 40 or it's a 70 30 kind of parenting plan. What do you think that means about you as a parent?

00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:00.000

Mm-hmm.

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.000

So is it is a

00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:07.000

What kind of parent you know, is the 30 on a 70 30 Right. So like getting to their assumptions or their judgments.

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.000

About what that means about that parent.

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:15.000

Okay, so let's play this out. Let's say is a 70 30 where parent has every other weekend

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.000

I don't know what the exact schedule would look like, but… Sure.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:28.000

Okay, so let's just say it's like in every other weekend parenting plan, right? And so you have like mom and, you know, husband and wife, mom and dad, whatever, to be anyone.

00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:29.000

Mm-hmm.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:34.000

Two partners separating and so they're going from this two household seeing the kids all the time Again, going back to the mom, now the mom is looking at every other week for whatever reasons.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:41.000

Yeah.

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:49.000

So, okay, so let's just say too, even let's say a garden litem came on board the case and the garden litem was like, okay, hey, mom.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:57.000

You know, given the fact the age of your kid and and what the kid needs for school or whatever.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.000

Dad's going to have full-time and you, mom, are going to have every other the weekend. So your question is.

00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.000

Mm-hmm.

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.000

What does that mean to you as a mom if you don't have that 50 50 anymore you have every weekend And to me as a parent, I would be like.

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:11.000

Yeah.

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:15.000

Well, I think that means then that I'm a shitty parent.

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000

I'm less than. I don't care about my kid.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000

Mm-hmm. Right, right. And that's, yeah.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.000

And then that's our work to do. Right. To recognize that I can still be an amazing parent.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:32.000

Yeah.

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.000

That's hard. It's hard.

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:37.000

No matter how much time I have with my kid. And I get to decide. It's not easy. No, nobody said it was easy.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:49.000

Right. Yeah, I mean, just really deciding for ourselves. I get to decide when I'm going to make all of this mean.

00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:56.000

I get to decide. What my relationship with my kid looks like.

00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000

Yeah, that's

00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:06.000

It's coming back to like finding where our control is And our control is around the thoughts that we have about ourselves.

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:11.000

And about our relationship with our kid. Or kids.

00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.000

Yeah.

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:23.000

And you know what, too? And I am an advocate for this if if you If you can, because your insurance allows you to seek mental health counseling, I do encourage people to go through that because it really does because you're in grief.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:29.000

Mm-hmm.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:30.000

Yeah, completely.

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:39.000

You're losing a relationship and it doesn't matter if you wanted a divorce or not. You're still grieving The loss of this relationship, the loss of a dream.

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:47.000

And then once you separate and you move on your own and you're the parent who sees the kids less, you're grieving the loss of that relationship with your children as well.

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:52.000

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:08.000

And it's a lot cheaper to see a therapist, especially if your insurance can cover it, than paying your attorney's hourly rate. And in fact, even if you had a 200 bucks for an hour therapy session.

00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000

You know. No, but yeah.

00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:15.000

That's a lot cheaper than than a lot cheaper than bitching and I'm not going to say bitching about using your attorney as a counselor.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.000

Yeah. And that's not what your attorney is trained to do anyway, right?

00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:20.000

Therefore, yeah. Yeah.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.000

And I think, I mean, you just nailed it. There's so much grief here.

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:31.000

Yeah. Right.

00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:32.000

Yeah.

00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:39.000

There's there's grief about the vision that you had for the future. There's grief about your identity There's grief about people that aren't in your life as much as you want them to be in your life.

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:44.000

Thought it would be. So much grief.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:45.000

It is.

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:53.000

There's so much, right? And it's a process to move through and Sometimes what we do instead of dealing with the grief is we get in more conflict.

00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.000

Ah, yeah. Yeah.

00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:02.000

Right. And so the more that we can give ourselves time and space to be with the grief and work through it.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.000

We actually end up in less conflict.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:12.000

Oh my gosh. Yeah, you said it right there.

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:19.000

Mic drop. Mike Drop, and you've been through that And I'm going through a high conflict divorce and I'm going through it. And yeah, it's a lot. We hear you folks.

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:24.000

Mm-hmm.

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:25.000

Mm-hmm.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:33.000

We know it's not easy but it's easy Outside, yeah, outside resources as well in addition to your attorney.

00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.000

It's huge.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:44.000

Yeah. And I think as hard as it is it is Really, really important to also just take a real long-term perspective, right?

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000

Long-term, my gosh.

00:40:45.000 --> 00:41:00.000

You are going to have a relationship with your child for the rest of their life, for the rest of your life.

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:01.000

Yeah.

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.000

Right. Keep in mind, what do I want it to be like when they're like in their early 20s. What do I want my relationship to be like when they're in their early 30s and 40s and 50? You know, like.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.000

Right.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:17.000

Right. I hear that.

00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:18.000

Yeah.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:24.000

I… I still like, I may have less control right now But long term How do I keep that door open? How do I nurture this relationship so that it gets to develop into Whatever beautiful thing.

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:34.000

It is going to develop into.

00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000

Mm-hmm.

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:41.000

I hear you on that 100% because even right now too, right? I'm looking right now, this is just about this this period in time that I'm going through is such a small blip.

00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:42.000

Yeah.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:42:05.000

In terms of my relationship with my childhood that there is a part of like, I've got to look past that and see that big picture and look long term.

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.000

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000

Mm-hmm.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:17.000

Because, you know, my end, my big high end goal my values to have a healthy harmonious and happy relationship with my child And if that means for a little bit that I have to let go and give him what he needs, even though it's…

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:25.000

Conflicts with my rights and expectations as a parent I've got to see that big picture.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:26.000

Yeah.

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:35.000

Because it's about having a happy and healthy and harmonious relationship with my child. And this is just but a small little Small little blip a small little What's below a speed bump?

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:38.000

Mm-hmm.

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:45.000

I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:52.000

A small little you know a small little A little bump in the sidewalk over the small little bump as I'm walking along the sidewalk of life and my relationship with my my

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.000

Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. So good.

00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:06.000

Oh, my gosh. Well, I think we, wow, I think we talked a lot about dispute resolution.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.000

Did you have any more any other thoughts that you wanted to say about it?

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.000

We got it.

00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:23.000

No, I think… I guess I would just say that what you put in your parenting plan is, you know, the last resort And that's what it's there for, right? If nothing else works out, most of your conflicts, you're not going to use that

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:29.000

Oh, yeah.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:39.000

Dispute resolution process. You're going to work them out yourselves. But it's good to have it there. So that's kind of your backstop if you ever need it.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:48.000

You know, that's a good point. A lot of times the things you put in your parenting plan are in a way. So what happens if we can't resolve this on our own?

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.000

Then your default is your parenting plan. So… Thank you so much, Meg. Wow, we really kind of explored. We really went into this and beyond.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:05.000

Which I think is just fabulous and amazing. That's why we're doing this four-part series.

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:06.000

Yeah, great.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:27.000

And so join us next. Join us next time, folks, as myself and Meg Gluckman dive into The last big section of the parenting plan that we want to talk about, which is called Section 14, other and others usually spells miscellaneous types of provision um

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:31.000

Co-parenting. Sections.

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000

Mm-hmm.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:43.000

That we put in that may not necessarily be enforceable, but are good signposts, guidelines, reminders about what co-parenting looks like.

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:50.000

So join us. Until then, and Meg, how can people get a hold of you?

00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:00.000

Yeah, come visit me. Check out my website. It's just my name, Meg Gluckman, G-L-U-C-K-M-A-N.com. And you can download those five questions.

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That I mentioned earlier there too.

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Okay, great. Fantastic. Again, until next time, this is Ululani Akiona of the family of the Akiona Law, Family Law and Divorce podcast, wherein we talk about anything And everything that relates, intersects in the areas of family law and divorce. Until next time.

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Be well