The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Kathleen Burgler

 In this episode, of the Akiona Law Podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with health and wellness coach, and certified divorce coach, Kathleen Burgler. Kathleen is also the author of “Forge Your Path: a workbook for intentional growth during end of marriage, divorce, and healing." The discussion highlights five essential keys to healing—including grounding and self-compassion—designed to help individuals reclaim their personal power through structured exercises.

Transcript

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2 and 1. Hello, and welcome to another episode of theAkiona Law Podcast.

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We're in, we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce.

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And today on this podcast episode, we are featuring…

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certified health and wellness coach, certified divorce coach, and mediator Kathleen Burglar.

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Kathleen, welcome to the podcast!

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Thank you very much, I'm super happy to be here.

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Now, Kathleen, um, Kathleen is experienced,

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And helping clients navigate transitions

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Uh, especially divorce.

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And she does it with, um, calmness.

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competency, and of course, compassion. And this is because you, Kathleen, have over a decade of experience, right, in the wellness field.

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And, um, interestingly enough, you've also are, I believe, certified in restorative yoga?

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Um, yeah, I have a deep background in, um, sort of the more nervous system-focused, um,

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aspects of yoga, and yoga for Parkinson's and MS, um, working privately

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Okay.

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with clients that way, and also teaching group restorative classes, yeah.

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So, Kathleen, why don't you tell us a… I mean, that's such an interesting background from doing restorative yoga to now becoming a certified divorce coach and mediator.

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Can you tell us what happened to cause you to do that shift?

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Um, honestly, I kind of, uh, became a yoga teacher and a health coach around the same time, around 2011,

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And, um, had a business working with all types of folks, and sort of blending those two modalities, and also went to school for nutrition, and…

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Um, sort of being a cog in the wellness industrial complex.

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And…

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Ah.

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When I went through my own divorce, I was really fortunate in that I had the tools and resources at the ready internally, as a coach. And, um, all of these nervous system techniques and, you know, mindfulness, etc.

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So, I was able to tap that and really utilize that going through my divorce. I did…

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Great, Kathleen, can I… can I pause you for a second? So, when you were going through your divorce, you did not have the certified divorce coach training yet?

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I did not.

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Okay, all right, that's…

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Wow.

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No, I was a… there's a national board certification for health and wellness coaches, I had that, um,

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Okay.

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I was working with groups and individuals then.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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And, um, and… but I found a divorce coach, and she worked with us, and she was an integral part of

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what we were doing and how we were able to really utilize the collaborative process.

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But even in that, if I hadn't had my own

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inner resources, I think I would have… I think it…

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I wouldn't have been able to approach the process

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with as much clarity and purposeful drive as I did.

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And so that aspect…

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And it was actually our divorce coach

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said to me at one point, she's like, have you thought about becoming a divorce coach? And I was like, I didn't even know they existed at first.

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Um, so then I took some trainings and, um, did a few of those, um…

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medical clinic that I was working in as a health coach at that time.

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Uh, got bought out, corporate, gross, awful, and it was, um, so I just made the switch, and…

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sort of focusing on divorce coaching.

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And really felt compelled to share

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Correct.

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the part of my journey that was, um, so critical in the way that

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kind of the smoothest transition that I could have afforded myself in that. And so I created my workbook, um…

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forge your path, and…

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that really, um, took a lot longer than I anticipated.

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But it was really a way for people to sort of have a pocket coach.

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Okay.

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Um, something that they could, um…

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utilize that isn't… it's structured, but it's loose, it's not…

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Okay.

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It's not super formulaic.

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Um, so people can…

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you know, not everybody wants to use a divorce coach, not everybody can, not everybody can have access to it or can afford it, and so this was my way of…

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sort of providing that…

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service to folks.

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Hmm. So, going back, you and your spouse, your husband, you folks are doing an agreed collaborative divorce?

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Mm-hmm.

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Okay, so you were in that collaborative divorce container.

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Yes.

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Okay, with your collaborative attorneys, a collaborative divorce coach, a collaborative financial neutral…

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And… okay. And…

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How long did it take, even with that collaborative divorce process and your, um…

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I guess your own skill set from being a health coach. How long did it take you to go through that process?

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Uh-huh.

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The divorce itself took, um…

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I would say, really, two active years.

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Um, I think it's one of…

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Um, one of the drawbacks that I see to the collaborative process is that

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There really has to be…

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motivation and drive from the clients.

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Right.

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sometimes the process can

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feel… I mean, some of it is just, you know, the process, and it gets a little bit slow, and if you're in the process, you're like,

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Let's go! Um…

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Let's go.

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But, um…

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Yeah, I mean, you know, you gotta be motivated to make it work.

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You know, I gotta say, 2 years for a collaborative divorce sounds pretty long.

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Usually gets done a lot quicker than that.

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Um, in my experience.

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We'd still be doing it if it weren't for me.

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Oh, okay, so you have… but when someone drags their feet,

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I can understand it. Well, I guess more importantly, the question is…

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how long did the process take for you, the healing process?

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resulting from the divorce.

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Well, you know what's interesting is I was just, uh, having a conversation with somebody recently about the idea of healing from

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whatever kind of…

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trauma and whatever. And in my situation, I was blindsided. There was infidelity. There were all of these things that really disrupted

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Yeah.

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Right. Untethered.

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you know, perception, right? And I felt untethered. And the word that I always come back to is disoriented.

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Like, it was just so…

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Wow.

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Here was the reality that I assumed was real, and then it turns out it's not, and, like,

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Because how long… how long were you and your spouse together?

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Mary?

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We were together for 25 years, married 23.

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25… and you just got blindsided by…

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The infidelity.

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Yeah, I mean, certainly you can look back and go, mm,

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you know, whatever. Um…

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Now, still, no one expects that.

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No.

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No, and uh… so the healing, the conversation I had recently was that

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I don't think there's a point at which you say, I'm healed!

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Right.

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Volume 2.

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that this is… this is what I like to refer to my post-divorce life as Volume 2. It's not Chapter 2. It is its own separate book.

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And it refers to Volume 1.

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Okay.

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And there's definitely some, you know, through lines of theme and mood, etc., but it's really its own book, and so I'm here

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I, you know, like, seriously,

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Um, I'm so motivated by utilizing Volume 2,

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Okay.

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to…

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Like, do hard stuff. Be vulnerable. To really look at the idea of healing as not

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An end goal?

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But… but… an ongoing…

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It's an ongoing unveiling. It's a curiosity. It is a…

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it's… it's growth, and you don't… like, I am not going to stop growing. I'm going to keep on being curious. And maybe some things will feel very resolved, and…

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put to rest and no longer…

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They no longer inflame or, um…

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Or, you know…

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I get triggered, get emotionally dysregulated, start crying…

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Right, well, even in that,

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Yeah.

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I think…

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the… one of the things that I… that was really brought to the surface for me during

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um, the drama of my divorce.

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was that, um, I would say to myself all the time,

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The depth of the pain that I'm feeling, the depth of the range, um…

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Uh-huh.

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the… the fear, all of that,

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Yeah.

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is in direct proportion to the depth of my capacity to love, and I will not.

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I will not obscure that. I won't negate it, because

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Wow.

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Oh my gosh!

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Oh, and I just said, how amazing is it that I have this capacity to love

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so fully and so deeply. And why would I… why would I deny it?

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Oh my gosh, Kathleen, I so needed to hear that when I was going through my own divorce, because…

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Um, Kathleen and I have actually talked before this, and we've actually

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shared and bonded over, uh, our traumatic divorce experiences. Those different?

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Mm-hmm.

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Still very the same thing, right? Pain and anger, and sadness, and…

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It's a lot, and just, um…

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I gotta tell you, just…

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Just to hear what you said right now, that is demonstrative of the capacity that you and I have, that we have folks to love. That's why we feel so much.

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That's beautiful.

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Yeah.

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So, let's… let's… let's get that, I mean, because again, like, I wish I had you in my back pocket going through my divorce, and…

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But let's go into this, into your workbook here, Forge Your Path.

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Sure.

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So, you created this?

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out of… out of your divorce.

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out of my divorce, out of, sort of,

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Okay.

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what I learned through it and post-divorce, and…

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like, the things that really drove me… I have always, for the entirety of my coaching career, I have always started with some values work with my clients and my patients when I was working in clinic.

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Okay.

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Because it's something that, um…

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Okay.

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Most folks are sort of out of touch with. They might think about it. If somebody asks them, I often would get, you know,

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you know, family and faith, and my… my…

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question, then, is, you know, tell me how it shows up in your daily life.

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Okay.

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And so when I was dialing in with myself, you know, like, there were all of these different things,

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that…

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We're sort of like these…

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little bright lights in the long, dark tunnel.

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And… and so I said, how can I formulate this

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into something, into some kind of cohesive…

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manual. And, um, because there's no manual, right? We all have our…

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There is no manual.

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Now…

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stuff, right? And so, um…

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Yes! Yes!

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you know, it came… and… and because, you know, our brains want some kind of an order and structure, I gave it a little bit of loose structure.

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With this… these five keys. And I really wish, looking back, I wish, because I wrote them as 5 keys to Healing from divorce,

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And I really wish I would have said,

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you know, 5 keys to healing through divorce.

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Mmm…

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Yeah.

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It's the true… it's not… we're not, you know, it's…

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feels more organic, and that's semantics, but I'm a wordy lady, so…

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Um, yeah, and it's…

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Again, it's… it's… it's not a formula.

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Uh-huh.

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Um, their activities and, uh, prompts and, sort of,

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things to entice people to sort of dig a little bit deeper when they are in this

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really tough…

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potentially traumatic, often just disorienting,

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Um, period in time.

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traumatic, disorienting,

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Um, my, my word that my counselor would use to me all the time was emotionally dysregulated.

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experiencing so much emotional disregulation, and that I did not anticipate.

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And it's tough, folks, because when you're emotionally dysregulated, it affects your, uh, cognitive functions, which means your thinking abilities.

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Your ability to focus.

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Right. Absolutely! And I literally…

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Not fun!

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And for me, like, and this is it, like, I had…

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Yeah.

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I had years of experience as a meditator, a pretty casual meditator, but I'd done a lot of mindfulness stuff, I've taught mindfulness.

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Yeah.

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I, you know, have all of these different, um, nervous system tools,

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Okay.

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And… and so just, like, if I hadn't had that… and I was still dysregulated, even with all those

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I know, I know.

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pools. And so, you know, if you take somebody…

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Yeah.

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who doesn't have any of those tools or no familiarity with any of that.

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you know, what they can do, or what is actually happening physically.

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Um,

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then yeah, you can't make a… you can't make a solid decision in real time, and you might not be able to find your voice to say, wait a second, I can't make a decision in real time, I need…

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I need space to think about it.

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He might not even have that.

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That's true. That's true, because it is, it's that ability to find…

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Your voice through the hurt and the pain that you're experiencing of your divorce, it really is hard to do that.

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I've discovered that.

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And… it's, um, one thing that I do like here is that it just starts off right here, folks. It starts off

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Where she talks… Kathleen, you talk about the five keys to healing from divorce, which you mentioned is from your book.

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Mm-hmm.

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Is that book available on Amazon?

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Okay.

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It's available on Amazon, and there's another link, too, if you don't want to support Bezos, you can, uh, there's a link on my website that takes you to a direct, um, purchase place, but…

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What's your… what's your website?

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KathleenBerglar.com.

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Okay. And burglar is spelled B-U-R-G-L-E-R?

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Correct.

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Okay. And then, so we got right here, starts off, folks, the five keys to healing from divorce, and it starts off with grounding.

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surveying, planning,

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building and developing. And developing, it says, reinvesting in self,

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Positive affect, self-confidence,

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Empathy and forward focus.

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That's… that's beautiful, and I love… and her book starts off right here. Again, we're talking… we're going into Kathleen's workbook.

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forge your path, and it starts off right here, right here with grounding. Acceptance,

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Self-compassion, acknowledgement, and gratitude.

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You know, I love that, I love that. So, it's so beautiful, and when I get to the grounding page, it says right here,

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You are here, you are deserving,

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And you are worthy.

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And when you are going through a divorce, especially, you know, you and I were both involved in long-term

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marriages and relationships is 25 years.

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you're… and I'm gonna start crying now?

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your worth

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just get so, um… you just get torn apart.

00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:34.000

Where you feel that you are not deserving, and you're not worthing, you're not worth… worthy.

00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:42.000

And to have someone tell you this, and to give that exercise?

00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:47.000

about, um, to help you… to help you become grounded, to help you, in a way, um,

00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.000

talk yourself back into believing in yourself.

00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:54.000

And being positive, and…

00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:59.000

accepting yourself. And I guess more so, just accepting the pain.

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:10.000

This is… part of it, too, is, you know, the idea is, you know, Tara Brack is a meditator and meditation teacher and author and all of those things, and

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.000

The idea of radical acceptance. This…

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:16.000

It is what it is, and that just…

00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:22.000

I had familiarity with it at the time of my divorce, but for some reason, it just was like…

00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:27.000

I suddenly entered this bubble of radical acceptance of

00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.000

this is what's happening. This is real.

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:36.000

And… I don't like it, and it makes me scared and angry.

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.000

And so sad, and um…

00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.000

you know, all of the things…

00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.000

But this is happening, and to not just…

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:53.000

sit in the resistance of…

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:54.000

Right.

00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:55.000

of the… of the scary feelings, of the bad feelings, but just going, you know, starting to

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.000

do this little switch of, this is what…

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:02.000

This is what deep sadness feels like. This is what betrayal feels like.

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.000

in my body, I can feel it in my rib cage. I can feel it in my belly.

00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.000

Yes. Yeah.

00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.000

I feel it in my hands, on my shoulders, on my jaw.

00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000

And, um…

00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:17.000

it was… it was… that was a really…

00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:23.000

critical piece, and I already had some gratitude practice that was kind of, you know,

00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.000

But it became almost like a mantra.

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:32.000

a daily, sometimes, um, a few times a day, where I would be so grateful.

00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.000

For all of the roadblocks, the detours, the dead ends that have…

00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:45.000

occurred in my life that have brought me to the place where I…

00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:46.000

Hmm. Yeah.

00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.000

can feel perseverance building. I can feel tenacity building. I can feel…

00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.000

self-efficacy. Um…

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:59.000

agency, autonomy, you could just start to feel that just the tiniest tendrils of those buildings, and I would just be…

00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:03.000

I would be grateful.

00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:07.000

I know it's hard, it's hard when you're, um,

00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.000

It's hard when you're going through that.

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:12.000

to… to kind of just take that moment

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.000

And then acknowledge and accept that pain, and…

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:20.000

And have gratitude for it, because again, it does…

00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.000

I personally kind of learned a strength and a self-resiliency.

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:30.000

Uh, and I know I'm a stronger person for it, but yeah, I mean, it still sucked, but…

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.000

Right, and those two things can coexist!

00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.000

Yeah, they can coexist! Yes!

00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:35.000

Right?

00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.000

Two things can be true.

00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.000

Even if it's the same opposite of each other.

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:41.000

Mm-hmm.

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.000

But I just, like, I, like, you have this on page 28 power statement.

00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:55.000

Where you have right down your top 2 or 3 values, and you cover that. Now, write two of your 3 biggest strengths, and it's so hard. Why is it so hard for us to identify strengths about ourselves?

00:19:55.000 --> 00:20:00.000

Well, I would offer that it's, um, in my experience, um, it's

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.000

harder for women.

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:09.000

it's really easy for us women to describe the strengths of our

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:19.000

women friends of our, you know, sisters, mothers, aunts, and, um, you know, all of our… the males in our lives as well. But I think we can see the strengths of others and

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:29.000

We… very broad generalization, but we tend to minimize our own. Oh, well, everybody does that. Well, everybody can do that. Like, it's nothing.

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000

And sure, maybe everybody can do that.

00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000

it doesn't then…

00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000

make it not a strength.

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.000

Like, a strength isn't…

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:44.000

something that nobody else in the whole wide world can do. It just means that you can do it, too.

00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:50.000

And for some… sometimes, in certain periods of people's life, their strength is that

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.000

they get out of bed every day.

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.000

like,

00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:55.000

Or they make… they get out of bed, and then they make their bed.

00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.000

make their bed every day, yeah.

00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000

Um…

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.000

But that… that power statement, um…

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.000

I… I love that exercise. Actually,

00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:13.000

I don't know if it's original to me, but, um, I came up with it years ago when I was, uh,

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:20.000

I had a class that I taught called Your Personal Food Revolution, and the idea with that class is that we would

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:23.000

kind of clear away the static of…

00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.000

Um…

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.000

of, like, diets and…

00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:34.000

clean eating, and this, and all of the noise of how you're supposed to eat, and instead…

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:39.000

revisit what food is to us, what it is culturally, what it is, um,

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.000

energetically, and all of those things, and we would come up,

00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.000

True values work and other staff.

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.000

A really concise little sentence that would reflect

00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000

how we wanted to really

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.000

Okay.

00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:55.000

be in relation with food. And I had somebody, um…

00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:01.000

text me or message me on social media a couple years back, and she had taken that class back

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:05.000

10 years ago, and she messaged me, and she said, I gotta tell you,

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:16.000

I still use my food credo, my personal food credo, and I still remember hers because it was… I always know where my food is grown.

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:17.000

Okay.

00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:21.000

And so that was what was most critical for her. And the idea was that she could have that, you could have that kind of little…

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:23.000

concise sentence.

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:29.000

And be at a gala dinner, or around a campfire, or wherever you were, but you knew what was

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.000

kind of an overriding

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000

desire of yours. And so with this, in this context, I'm like,

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.000

You've got somebody totally emotionally…

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:41.000

dysregulated.

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.000

Right.

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.000

triggered, potentially, um…

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:55.000

And not able to connect with the higher values in the moment, in real time, because of all of that emotional…

00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:56.000

Yeah.

00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.000

chaos. So how do you dial in and give somebody just a

00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:09.000

Sweet little sentence that they can literally write down and put in their pocket, or if they're virtual, they can write it down on a post-it note, have it right there, and reconnect in real time.

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:14.000

My, you know, my opinions matter and deserve to be heard.

00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:18.000

I am a good parent, and I can…

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.000

Um, and my views…

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:23.000

are, you know, valued.

00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:27.000

And to just give people…

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.000

that ability to…

00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:36.000

connect with who and how they want to be through this process when they aren't feeling.

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.000

super connected to that.

00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:43.000

Do you mind sharing, uh, your personal… your power statement?

00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:54.000

My power statement when I was going through the divorce, for most of it, um, I don't know if I remember it completely, but, um, it was, um…

00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.000

Um,

00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.000

I am a compassionate person.

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.000

I conduct myself with integrity.

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.000

And intention,

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000

And I strive

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:16.000

I think I strive for fairness, or something like that. I know that, um, compassion and integrity.

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:17.000

Okay.

00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.000

Uh, we're definitely part of it.

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:24.000

Mine's was, aside from telling myself, reminding myself that I'm a good mom.

00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.000

And, uh…

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:31.000

you know, I'm there for my kids and provide them with unconditional love and support was that, um…

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:35.000

I will not capitulate to my husband's demands,

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.000

as I did during my marriage.

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:45.000

Meaning, during the divorce, I'm not going to give into his demands as I did during our marriage, where I just gave in.

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.000

Gave in.

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:54.000

And I would have dialed in, if you were working with me, I would have dialed in a little bit, and

00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:55.000

Oh,

00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:56.000

done and finessed it, so you're completely leaving him out.

00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.000

Oh, okay.

00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:59.000

So it was just you.

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.000

Yeah.

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:07.000

What are you wanting to do? How are you… so, I want to be strong in my convictions of what I deserve.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:08.000

Ooh!

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000

I am… I know…

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.000

I know what I am worth.

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:15.000

Yeah.

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.000

I am clear in my, you know, like, whatever it was.

00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:23.000

So that it is really, truly, it's you. Nobody can come in

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:30.000

And point a finger, and erase anything, or sand down the edges, because it is all yours.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:35.000

Um, the thing is, though, Kathleen, is that I didn't know what I was worth.

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:36.000

Yeah.

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.000

That's all part of it.

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:39.000

Yeah!

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:43.000

was through the work of a counselor, you know, getting my self-esteem.

00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:50.000

But going through your workbook would have definitely helped me in terms of my values and my strengths, and just my own…

00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:01.000

power statement, and just kind of grounding me and centering me, helping me identify these things, because I did. I've, you know, you're with someone for 25 years, you lose yourself.

00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:02.000

Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000

You have to build yourself up again and get in touch with yourself.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.000

Yeah.

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:11.000

It's not easy. So, let's… again, going back to…

00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.000

Man, I wish I knew you back then when I was going through my divorce. Um…

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:25.000

To help… to help other women through… through this, or not even other women, men as general, too, what are you doing now with this Forge Your Path workbook?

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000

Um,

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:27.000

Are you offering any type of classes or anything?

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:33.000

I am. I'm currently kind of fine-tuning, um, and writing some of the curriculum for a… it'll be a 6-week class,

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:36.000

Okay.

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.000

Um, and it'll be online.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:39.000

Fantastic.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.000

I… and, uh, offering it in the fall.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:49.000

Uh, I don't have the specific dates yet, um, but my goal with it is…

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:57.000

Um, my goal, whenever I groups, is for the group dynamic to also be a player.

00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.000

Okay.

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:04.000

in the… in the room, right? Because a group dynamic can offer so much richness and so much more.

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.000

Right, it does.

00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:07.000

It's such a different dynamic.

00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:12.000

Um, and so I'm really excited for that. I love working with groups.

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.000

Um, and my hope is that it really

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.000

can allow people to

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.000

Experience a trajectory of growth?

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.000

Okay.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.000

to, like, see it in themselves,

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:29.000

and B, see it reflected in other people, and to watch

00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:34.000

That… that is such a powerful reinforcement of, um…

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.000

of process, of…

00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:42.000

empowerment, sort of the unfolding that happens when you've, um…

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:47.000

You know, when you've been kind of shattered and shaken up by divorce.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.000

Plus, too, divorce is also very…

00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:52.000

lonely and isolating.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.000

And she… I can't imagine how much, how…

00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:02.000

supported and lifted up, I would have felt, if I was in this group, and we're all kind of working through this workbook.

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.000

Together.

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:09.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.000

That's correct.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.000

Amazing, and fall 2026 is when you're gonna start this, and it's going to be, like, once a week for the…

00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:14.000

Gonna be once a week.

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.000

2 hours, okay, 1 hour?

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000

Okay, 90 minutes? Okay.

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:20.000

Um, I think we'll go 90 minutes. I put out a little… I did send my, um, my newsletter list

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.000

a little, uh…

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:31.000

quit… not a quiz, a survey to kind of gauge where people were looking and, um, so…

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:38.000

trying to figure out what will work best for myself, and just with the feedback I've received.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.000

you know, 90 minutes, I think, would be the top. I think that would… that… that…

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:46.000

you could get into some good stuff and, um…

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:51.000

It wouldn't take away from too many people's, you know, lives.

00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000

Um, but I want to say something, speaking to you, too.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.000

Yes.

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:59.000

I, um, I have a once-a-month group, uh, that's in person here in Everett.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:03.000

Um, and…

00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.000

overwhelmingly, the number one reason.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:11.000

the people come, as they're looking for community. They want connection, they want…

00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:15.000

to be able to share their story,

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:20.000

Um, you know, in fellowship with other people, with other women. I mean, this is a women's-only group, so…

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:21.000

Okay.

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:28.000

Um, they…

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.000

Right.

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:32.000

our friends and our family get tired of hearing about it, right? And they aren't necessarily… if they haven't gone through it, or…

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.000

They don't have a lot of…

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:41.000

you know, availability to their own sympathy and empathy there, then you probably aren't.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:49.000

Right? And you're feeling like you're being a burden because you keep talking about the same thing, and they're like,

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:50.000

Yeah.

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000

Can we talk about something else? And so coming to group and being where

00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:55.000

There is so much…

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.000

just openness and kindness,

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000

And, you know, it's not about just

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:06.000

spinning your wheels and, you know, my ex is a jerk, and this is terrible, but it's like, yeah.

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.000

Right. And it hurts. Yeah.

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:08.000

sucked in.

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:14.000

I remember going, um, well, going through the… when it was really bad, and talking to some of my friends about it,

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.000

And then when they would switch the topic, 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:20.000

it was almost like…

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:26.000

How dare you? Like, don't you want to hear about this some more?

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000

Yeah!

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000

And of course, in my head, I was like, oh, wow, I guess I really am dominating the conversation about my divorce.

00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:35.000

Have an asked them about what's going on with them.

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000

Yeah, because it's all-encompassing, though.

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:39.000

Yeah.

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.000

take the…

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.000

It takes over… it takes… I mean, it has physical…

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:47.000

literal physical effects. It has, you know, which then reverberates in all of the…

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:50.000

Nervous system, emotional life, and…

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:51.000

Oh, great.

00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.000

the way you are out in the world, and the way that you're interacting with everybody, and…

00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:00.000

you know, we… our tendency as humans is we want to debrief and, like, just let me word vomit all over you.

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.000

Be brief! Yes!

00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:04.000

Yeah.

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.000

Please, but that's what you're there for!

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000

That's what I'm there for.

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000

People can contact you.

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:15.000

And then you… they can whir vomit on you, and you can give them your wonderful, beautiful nuggets.

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000

Sure.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.000

of wisdom to help them navigate through this.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.000

Yeah, yeah.

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:21.000

Yeah.

00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:28.000

So… so… so people can contact you to work with you one-on-one as a divorce coach through your website.

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:29.000

Mm-hmm.

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.000

Kathleenburglar.com.

00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:37.000

And, um, you also will be starting a 6-week divorce workshop about

00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.000

Um, and it's meant to go through the workbook of Forge Your Path,

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:46.000

workbook for intentional growth during end of marriage.

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.000

Divorce and healing.

00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:54.000

So that's going to be another way that people can work with you in fall 2026, and until then,

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:03.000

Uh, you also have your monthly Woman group… sorry, man, it's women-only divorce group meeting once a month in Everett. Is that on a Saturday?

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:07.000

It's on a Saturday, the third Saturday of every month, and it's on Meetup, so, um, if you just look up

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.000

Okay. On Meetup? Okay.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.000

uh, Kathleen Burglar on Meetup, you'd see the event there.

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000

Okay.

00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:23.000

are you gonna do anything, um… oh, no, I was gonna ask if you're gonna do an online once a month, but if you're gonna be doing this workbook online,

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.000

In fall 2026, Forge Your Path, you're gonna be really busy.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:34.000

Um, well, honestly, I'll tell you that when I started the women's group a couple years ago, I started a virtual one and an in-person, and I never had anybody sign up for virtual.

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.000

Okay.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.000

Oh…

00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.000

And I have people that come

00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.000

that travel 30, 40 miles,

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.000

to come to in-person, and I think

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:44.000

Wow!

00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:49.000

Would that… for this specific thing, people are yearning for that in- person connection.

00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:50.000

Yes.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:00.000

Um, and my hope with the online class is that it's not just super local, that, um, that that then gives more people

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.000

from different time zones and different states, um…

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.000

access to it.

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:10.000

Okay, and then you also mentioned that you have the five keys to healing from Divorce book.

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.000

that you wrote based on…

00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.000

After your journey of divorce,

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:24.000

Okay, so now I know people are going to wonder, do they have to read the five keys to Healing from divorce before they start your workbook, Forge Your Path?

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.000

Okay.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.000

Okay.

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:31.000

No, I don't… the 5 Keys isn't a separate book. That's just this. That's just sort of the organizational…

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.000

um, path of this…

00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:35.000

of this workbook.

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:37.000

Oh, I'm sorry, okay.

00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.000

So, okay, so I…

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:45.000

Alright! That's the organizational path that you did. Okay, that makes sense.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:48.000

Yeah, it's just my way of, you know, sort of

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.000

people like a little bit of structure. They don't want to totally free- form it.

00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.000

No, and I appreciate structure, too. My brain needs structure. If there's too much free form,

00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000

I get lost.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.000

Yeah.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.000

So, and again, they can get the Forge Your Path workbook on… on Amazon, you said, right?

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.000

Mm-hmm. Yep.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.000

or on your… or go to your website.

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.000

www?

00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.000

Mm-hmm. Or if you're local to Everett, you can go to Artisan's Bookshop.

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.000

Oh, okay.

00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:19.000

Um, they carry them there.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000

Nice!

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.000

Um, where have you come to the women's group? I usually have a couple copies with me.

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.000

There. Um…

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.000

Yeah.

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:34.000

Okay, and, um, so… and again, folks, contact Kathleen at www.kathleenburgler,

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:38.000

B-U-R-G-L-E-R to

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.000

hire her as your divorce coach,

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:45.000

Um, or get a copy of her workbook, Forge Your Path.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:48.000

Uh, which is going to help you

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.000

process… process these, um, difficult…

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:59.000

And, um, I mean, I hate to say trauma, but yeah, sometimes there is that trauma associated with divorce.

00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:05.000

You know, when there are actual measurable markers,

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:10.000

for, uh, you know, their inflammatory markers that can be measured.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.000

during and post-divorce, that really show that, like, the literal physical effect.

00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:21.000

of what's happening. So whether you want to call it trauma with a capital T, trauma with a lowercase t,

00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:26.000

Um, the reality is the impact

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.000

is real. So…

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.000

Israel.

00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.000

you can… you can sit in the…

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.000

in the impact, and let it happen to you.

00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:42.000

You can acknowledge the impact and say, okay, this is what's going on in my body and in my life.

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:47.000

I want to move through this. I don't want to stay in it. I want to…

00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:52.000

build a new way of being, or a 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:55.000

shift my perspective a little bit so that things are different for me.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:01.000

Well, and also, too, you talked to mention, too, it's building a healthy, more resilient you.

00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:07.000

Because it's easy to sit in it and be stuck in the mud and just be overcome, and not really…

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:10.000

Um, you know, without the help of my own therapists,

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:13.000

It's hard. It's hard not to move through it.

00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:14.000

Yeah.

00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:25.000

And that's why I, um, you know, to me, your workbook is just so important, because it gives people a tool, a structure, a guide… guidance, and clear steps about this is how you work through this.

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.000

And you've been through this yourself.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:33.000

And I even think, you know, I love this sort of…

00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:36.000

the idea of resilience

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:44.000

is… all we can do sometimes is, like, that feels like the biggest thing. And resilience is sort of the bounce back to normal.

00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:49.000

Right? You've encountered something, and the resilience is, okay, I've righted the ship, you know? We had some turbulence.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.000

Right.

00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:52.000

Yeah.

00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:57.000

Um, and then… and then, the next step is growth.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.000

The next step is, okay, I'm settled. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:01.000

Okay.

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.000

made it through that, and now I want to

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:06.000

Right.

00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.000

build. I want to build on that. And the building doesn't mean, you know, like,

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.000

being ex… super expansive and, you know, like, doing all of the things, and some people do that. Some people are like, I know I'm a bungee jumper, and I've, you know…

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.000

Right.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.000

You know, all of the things. It was like, yes, absolutely. Um…

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:29.000

Or they are just like, wow, I have really clear boundaries now.

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:30.000

Ah, boundaries!

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:36.000

And we feel… and I feel okay about the boundaries that I have, you know, and I don't feel guilty.

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.000

Um, about the boundaries that I have. And…

00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:40.000

Right.

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:46.000

that, for some people, is a massive amount of growth. It's not resilience, it's not the bounce back to where they were before.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:48.000

it goes… moves them beyond.

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.000

Oh my gosh, I love that.

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:55.000

That's, uh, you said that so wonderfully and beautifully. See, the folks, this is why you've got to work with her.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:02.000

Um, Kathleen, it was such a pleasure having you on. Um, I appreciate you coming on so much.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:08.000

And, uh, before we sign off, what's a fun fact that someone wouldn't know about you?

00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:13.000

Just from looking at your website, or…

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000

Uh, fun fact, um…

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:15.000

Meaning you. Yeah.

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:21.000

In the early 1990s, when I was backpacking in Southeast Asia, I ended up

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:29.000

Um, teaching English to some Buddhist nuns in return for room and board for, um, about a couple months.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.000

And, um, it was…

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:34.000

it was very much an adventure.

00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.000

That's fascinating. What country was that?

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Vietnam.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:45.000

Oh my goodness! Well, first of all, that's just fascinating that you went backpacking through Southeast

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:54.000

Asia, and then teaching some Buddhist nuns in Vietnam English.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000

That's amazing.

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:58.000

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's… it's a long story, but it was… it was really, um, it was really amazing.

00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.000

Well, again, thank you so much, Kathleen, for coming on today.

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.000

Thank you!

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.000

Mm-hmm.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.000

And, uh, again, folks, the best way to get ahold of you is on your website, www.kathleen.com.

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.000

burger… burglar.com.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:15.000

And, uh, thank you all for my listeners out there on the…

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:23.000

Our Keona Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce, and until then…

00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.000

Uh, be well.

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.000

Thank you so much.

00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:32.000

Thank you, Kathleen.