The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Aubrie De Clerck

 In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with Aubrie De Clerck, an International Coaching Federation (ICF) certified coach, 18-year industry veteran, and the founder of Coaching for Clarity. Aubrie specializes in helping people navigate the "rough seas" of major life disruptions—including divorce, job layoffs, health milestones, and career changes. Known for her deeply practical yet highly inspirational approach, Aubrie explains how to find your footing when your life's trajectory suddenly changes. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Aciona Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects with in the areas of family law and divorce. And today I have with me Aubrey DeClook. She is, okay, so let me tell you about Aubrey, and this is why I'm really excited to have her on today, is that she is a certified coach, certified by the International Coaching Federation ICF, with her specialty being career coaching. Now, what she does is that she helps people navigate through lives of big changes. She also helps people, and big changes is not only just through career, it can be through things like divorce, age milestones, health issues, as well as job changes or job layoffs. Now, Aubrey uh Aubrey has been doing this for 18 years, and through it, she is um and I'm sorry, she is known for being highly inspirational as well as being deeply practical with being able to have conversations that cuts to the core of the matter. She is the owner and founder of Coaching for Clarity. Welcome, Aubrey. Thanks, Lonnie. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

So excited to have you on. Excited to be here. I'm excited for our conversation. You know, we've we've talked before and just really enjoy the flow of what we have the conversations about. So looking forward to today.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

So so coaching for clarity. So don't tell me like what made you get into this?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Well, I think that with a lot of times with um big life changes, same for me, right? Some of it feels part accident, right? And then part of it feels really aligned and intentional. So I mean, in that sense, like I was always, I mean, I went to school, got a degree in sociology, always been interested in people and phases of life and supporting people. And I thought I was gonna go into social work. Oh, yeah. I really thought that's the place I was gonna go. And I ended up um coming out of school and having a corporate career and then working in nonprofit and getting closer and closer to working with people again. But I feel like in some ways I circle back to being of support at really crucial moments of people's lives, which is something that's that's always been inside with some detours.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Well, so tell us now. Tell us about um like I know that when people go through life changes, there's you know, there's I I identity change that happens with it. And a transition. So can you can you speak to that?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah. So the way I describe it a lot of times is like um a mobile over a baby's crib, right? With different parts of our lives. Like let's say, you know, there's work, there's our relationship, right? There's family, there's all sorts of different pieces of our lives. And if you pull on one of those things, many of those things also move, right? So if somebody's going through job loss, that can affect the family and the relationship. It can affect our sense of identity and sense of self. Um, so there's a number of things where um it can't really be all separated out. So that's one way of thinking of when people are going through these kinds of changes and like a divorce, especially, right? Who they are in in life is changing what you people aren't, this isn't what they thought they were gonna be.

unknown 4:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

You a lot of people, most people enter into the marriage, me and my own marriage and other people that I work with, thinking like this is it, right? Like the plan is that we're gonna be together, we're gonna create this life together. And so um the the fact that it's your trajectory looks different, right? Who you are in the world is gonna be different. Your relationship, if you have children, might change, to your family members might change. Some people need to go to work some in a different way. Other people have to stay with work that they thought that maybe they were done with. That there's a lot of parts of our lives that change all geography, might have to change. So when people are going through that kind of disruption to their lives and their experience, it can feel like really rough seas, like a rough being in the ocean when it's really choppy.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah, no, that's a really good visual, rough seas.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

No one likes to be in rough seas, it's uncertain, totally uncertain, and human beings in general on don't really like things to be uncertain. Right. You'd really rather know what's gonna happen. But these types of changes in life, it's so much is unknown. And part of the process is to you know put that anchor down. So in that moment, you know, it's not the best time sometimes to chart your whole path if you the sea's choppy and you can't see very far ahead of you in a storm. So part of this is to like really drop the anchor down and figure out what's where you are right now, right? What's happening right now, and then when things are a little calmer, then start thinking about where am I what am I looking to? Because then that's when some possibility happens. But you need to have the anchor down for for a little bit in order to feel more secure, okay, more connected to oneself to make those kinds of decisions and choices.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

So how long? So so say for example, if someone is going through a divorce, how how long would you be working with that person? Is there like a I guess I'm just trying to figure out, is there a certain timeline, like three sessions, five sessions? It just depends, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

It depends. And yeah, at the same end at the same time, when people are in pain, the last thing you want to hear on the on the other end is like this thing takes time, it's different for everyone, right? Like that's yeah, not super helpful a lot of times. I know that when I'm in pain, I really don't want to hear like, well, we don't really know how long it's gonna last. Yeah, usually I recommend that people that we work together for 90 days to start out because what's interesting to me about the 90-day time frame is that it's enough to know that we have a little some spaciousness in the time, what we're gonna talk about. The other thing that tends to happen is people are in spots where things are shifting and changing around them.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

And so we want to allow for that to happen without having to say, okay, well, it's gonna take six months. Oftentimes people come and something's changed already within the first two to three weeks.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

And so wanna have that space to say, like, okay, where are we going? Right? We need to figure this out. And it's um 90 days at a time is about what people can take in, I think, during those types of times.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

So uh practically speaking, are people meeting with you every week during those 90 days, or as an okay?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yeah, for me, it's every week. I know that some coaches do every two weeks, and maybe they go longer, right? So it ends up being the same amount of sessions for six months. But for me, that when I'm working with folks at these times, during big life change times, having that consistency can be really helpful and important because things are changing a lot. The other thing about that is it gives them flexibility because a lot of times, I'm not sure how your experience, Lenny, with this is is that things can come up and if they miss a time or we have to change the time, like for me, it's no problem, right? We can change the time, we can reschedule it to later that week or whatever. But if we're on an every two-week schedule and we miss one time, I mean, I'm only touching base with that person once a month, and that tends to not be enough during a transition time like this.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

What is the so when when you help someone who's going to that transition of a divorce, um is there any certain recurrent themes that you see come up?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Well, I mean the recurrent emotions, but those may just feel obvious, right? In terms of what people are going through. But I mean, it can be a variety of things, right? There's a lot of five fear, survival fear, uh, especially when working with people around their work-wise, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

How am I gonna support myself? How am I gonna if they have a family, how am I gonna support my family? Am I gonna get back into the workforce, right? What does it even look like to do that? Um sometimes some numbness, confusion, frustration, resistance is a big one. I don't want this thing, this to be the way it is. Oh that's that's there a lot, which is normal. And that's that that is also welcome in the work that we do because there's um there's also information in the resistance. What about it is so hard, right? Yeah, getting to the core of that. And so those are some of the common feelings that folks have around it. Common themes are to me, some of the biggest common themes boil down to confidence and connection to themselves. So there's the identity piece. So can can you can you go more into that? Yeah. Yeah. So um what I'm finding with folks that I work with is that in their experience that they might have lost a certain part of themselves. There's all sorts of things in terms of marriage or partnership where we compromise, and I think it's real normal in relationships and friendships and all of those things, right? But there can be times when um people will lose the connection to themselves. Wait a minute, what did I want again? Who am I again? What was what are my goals for just me? And that sense of connection can be, and losing that sense of connection can be really disorienting when trying to figure out what you want next. A lot of people, when they come from that spot, don't know. If you ask straight on, like, what do you want? I don't know. I don't know what I want right now. And one way of sorting through that is to remember who we are. Now we are different than who we were before. I mean, if we're gonna take it in terms of divorce, right? Before being married, during marriage, after marriage. Um but we're not yet who we're gonna be post the transition yet. So I'm working with people in that space, right? Which is like, okay, I used to know what this was about for me and who I was and my relationship with the world. I don't have I'm really off-kilter right now. Like I'm not sure what that is or what I want or who I'm becoming yet. And then there's that spot where people are going into that stage of things are opening up, getting more connected, can see more of what's happening. Maybe some synchronicities start to happen that feel like their new path is opening. And so that's what I mean about being connected to oneself is just in a phase of transformation.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

You know, that's that's a good point to bring up because in a marriage you do tend to lose your own identity because you are, you know, a husband, a wife, a mother, or a father, and your own individuality or needs and wants, they kind of get pushed down in in service of the family.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah, it happens frequently. And I think that happens whether people are getting divorced or not. You know, there's a lot of folks that get to age 40 or 50, which are you, you know, really when we're talking you're talking about age milestones, those are really common times, right? Like in the age 40s, it's there can be this sense of individuality and freedom and uniqueness and expression, right? That's there. That's like, oh, I want that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

And then a lot of times in their 50s, people are in a place where they don't have regrets, right? Time is limited.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Um, what is it that means is a real meaning and purpose and value for me? So there's times where even if someone's not necessarily getting a divorce or ending their marriage, there's struggle around that sense of identity and who I'm becoming. And that's a real common process. It's unique to everyone. And just because it's common doesn't mean it's not painful. But you add on a layer of possibly shift in those time frames, or even in someone's 20s. A lot of times people in their late 20s are ready to commit to something. They want to commit to a career, they want to commit to a person, or if it's not working for them, they want to stop it and they want to build who they are becoming as an adult for themselves. And so at those times, those things are naturally happening for people. And then if you add in something like a divorce, that adds another, you know, an earthquake or a ripple or something, right? To an already existing experience, like you're talking about, about like, you know, being a parent or having an empty nest situation happen or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Oh, that's true, right? That's even uh you could be married in a life transition that you're going through is that here I'm here are my spouse and I. We're in our mid-50s, late 50s, and we're gonna be empty nesters. What does that transition look like?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah. What do we want for that? Are they taking care of their own parents at that time? So maybe there's some sense of feeling like, okay, I worked really hard and now I'm gonna have this freedom. And then maybe um, you know, there's an illness in the family, or and then and then it's or it can just also be like wow, wonderful. Right, I don't want to make this feel like this. It's all about terrible things happening in life, but you know, there can be and that's I think too. I mean, it's um things can be bittersweet, being divorced can be bittersweet, right? In terms of what people find or how new lives begin after after the divorce is done.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Well, sometimes it can getting divorced can lead to an awakening.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yes. Well, wow, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, totally. I know that that happened for me. Felt like it happened for me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Wow. That's um and that's something to realize that it again, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be the end. It can be an awakening. Are you are you able, do you mind sharing like how you felt awakened or to describe that process for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Sure. I mean, I was um the awakening part for me was I saw things more clearly than I had seen things in a long time. Wow. Like that felt like the awakening part of it for me was like, oh wow, it's like I, you know, it's like there maybe had been a fog over the window, and then you wipe it clear and you can see. I didn't love what I was seeing. It wasn't like, you know, an awakening as far as like, oh, rainbows, you know, you know, music and all those things, but it was like, oh wow. And looking at my part in it, I wrote a blog post on it. Um stat called Um Big Life Changes, and I I wrote a post about it about like when coming to that space of the realization of the reality in front of me. I was just like, how one, how did I get here? And then having some answers for that. Like, oh, I can see the patterns here.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

You know, in my own life and myself, and then to be in the sense of um, I remember somebody told me that when I started my business, they're like, Aubrey, starting a business is the biggest personal growth experience you never asked for. And after 18 years, I'm being like, yeah, and it's still happening. It's a lot to have a business. But marriage is also a growth, and divorce is also a growth like that. And so I feel like, would I rather have not had the awakening in this particular way? Yeah, I would still love to be, I would love to be in a healthy marriage, you know? Yeah, there was a lot of love between my ex-husband and I. So would I have loved it to not be so um so painful? Yeah. Am I really happy to be on the other side of that and what my life is about, and what I know about myself, and how much easier I am in my own skin in terms of that kind of awakening. 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

I hear I I hear you on that. And I just it I to me doing a midlife awakening sounds so much better than a midlife crisis.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Right. And I think that's you know, when I have teachers and do a lot of reading, and I think it's the uh that place of it's like it's midlife and it doesn't have to be a crisis, yeah, right. Like it doesn't, it's not automatically required to be a crisis. I think that, you know, depending on uh how people view different life um phases, that it's natural to go through these places like in the 40s or the 50s to have these kinds of feelings, right? But we can, whether it becomes a crisis or not, it doesn't isn't always optional, but how we handle it is optional, right? I can have these feelings and be going through something and not want, you know, not want this reality to be the way it is. But my response to that's gonna be either helpful or unhelpful. I think. Right. So I'd rather, like you said, I'd rather have my response to it be like painful awakening, but I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Well, through um um with pain comes growth. Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Well, how is that for you when you're working with people? Because you're working with people in really, you know, tough, painful situations, and you see the you know, you see the other side. Yeah, like you get people through this really hard process, right? All the time. That's what you're doing. Like to wear so how how what do you tell people about it? Because you're their, you know, I think there's reasons why attorneys are called counselors, right? Like you're part of that process for them. So how do you help people get through it?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

You know, it's it's I think sometimes it's it's tough in the sense that a lot of times for us as attorneys, it almost kind of feels like we're we're triaging, we're we're trying to meet that immediate need of I'm divorcing my spouse, and what is child support gonna be? What is spousal support? What is a parenting plan gonna look like? And it's helping people in that really small snapshot of time, yeah, uh maybe a year or two years, trying to help them figure out legally what's this new relationship going to look like. And I've I've seen growth in the sense that when a client comes to me and the I the I can tell that um, and again, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter whether or not you want the divorce, it's still really difficult, especially if there's a lot of heaviness that comes up with it, especially if a relationship was not a good relationship, and there's a lot of fighting and there's a certain heaviness that my clients would come to me with. And it's so nice to see uh towards the end when things are settled, um, or I may see them some some time after the divorce is finalized, that I can then see that shift in in their appearance and in their face the the happiness, it's as if a light is turned on inside um when things are resolved, and that's rewarding to see. And just speaking from my own experience about how when I started my divorce proceedings and I moved out of my my home September 20, 2024, and here it is two years later, still have yet to get my divorce finalized, but we will wasn't easy. And uh, and even though I was the one that wanted the divorce, man, I tell you, the grief on me that just felt um from a 25 year relationship, and just the oh my goodness, just everything changes. And for me, what I was really grieving was a change in my relationship with with my with my kids. Oh yeah. You know, they were older um at the time, and I the my oldest had started college, and the youngest. was a junior in high school, so they're older, but that still wasn't that wasn't easy on them.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

And it was and it wasn't easy on them because of the way that myself and my my spouse, uh, the way that we showed up, the way that our behaviors were. And that sucked. That sucked. It really just it hurts everybody and you just got to go through it. Yeah. You know, and I just tried, especially my youngest, he was um my my oldest was a little bit more insulated since he was at college and he was away, but it was my youngest that was living in the family home with my spouse. And um you know he he got to see his father's unfiltered emotions. And um that that was tough. And I tried to tell my youngest son, you know, you're gonna have a lot more resiliency and unfortunately than a lot of people or you know should have your age. So trying to make something you know that's a positive spin on it.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Right. And I think that that you're talking about in the the tough time right yeah that there's another side to it doesn't mean that we aren't changed doesn't mean we're gonna you know think everything's you know terrific right or you know yeah it's and at the same time there's things on the other side of that that we can't maybe necessarily see right now right like you're talking to your son about or when you talk about those people that have the lights back in their eyes right yeah like that it's um these kinds of life experiences and processes like they they leave us changed and we hope that that they get you know folded in right yeah to who we are in a sense of where we get to return to who we are but also bring in the new parts of who we are based on that situation and then move forward from there.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

You know exactly and what what uh what you said really kind of resonates in the sense of like my identity like who am I who am I now and there's also too you mourn the loss of your future because you know we have planned Lunar we're gonna be empty nesters and we're gonna do all of this this and that and you know I planned on spelling spending a lifetime with this person right and yeah sure that's there's there's mourning and grief that comes with that but also at the same time like who am I who am I now? Here I am two years later I don't know if I can really say who my stone I'm still trying to figure out what I want. But um I do I do know that I do feel a lot a lot happier and a lot lighter and you know honestly there's a part of me that wishes I made the decision sooner. So that way my spouse because we were not the best versions of ourselves for our kids really kind of breaks my heart when I think about how my kids were raised in that environment. And I I really wish looking back now that I had walked away a lot sooner which would have allowed me and my spouse to eventually be the best versions of ourselves for for our kids.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yeah but it's a learning it's a learning process right you don't you hindsight is always 2020 yep yeah yeah I remember for a long time it was just personality wise it was just like you know you when even people did oh but you did the best that you could right and you look back you can always be like you know and at the same time it's like we're doing what we don't know how to do in the moment that we're doing it. Right and the idea would be like just like you're talking about is like an awakening or so a learning or a changing that happens that when you move forward you're like okay are there things that you know things I want to choose differently about in the moment in the present in the future. But yeah that stuff that you're talking about about the the the grief right that's like that's all part of that choppy C's part. Yeah and like when you're saying like how long does it take and you're you know from your own personal experience you're like two years and still you know it's still not like you know I know exactly what that is and and that's there's a book on transitions by William Bridges and he talks about like there's an ending there's a neutral zone and then there's a new beginning right yeah and the neutral zone is rarely neutral doesn't feel neutral it just he just means I think that there you don't know what's happening right something new hasn't started yet um and but it can be kind of scary and frustrating but there's that that's that middle point right which is like okay my marriage is ending I'm not yet past divorce or started my own chapter however long that healing takes for people but it's the neutral zone of kind of like a little bit in the dark right feeling your way around right about what's happening and and it's as much as I know that for myself in transition I'd be like I would want somebody to be like just tell me what to do just be done with it. You know but there's all those things I imagine that you hear too which is like there's the legal process of it right and you're guiding people through that and helping them understand that. And then when that process is done there's another process that's happening. They're getting used to their parenting plan right they're understanding what who they are as co-parents if they're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Right their kids are going through milestones they're graduating they're you know people remarry or whatever right like all of that continues to happen so there isn't just like a you know a flip of the switch right and to be like it's over I'm done there's it just there's just more unfolding and things that occur it takes time it and it is it's a process your your one was your one was really rough for me it was it was rough it was painful a lot of you know numbness sadness grief mourning anger yeah and you know year two year two feels feels good it feels acceptance I guess neutral yeah neutral it's like yep we're we're gonna get it done I mean it's gonna get done soon yeah it's a place that's easier to start thinking about what you want from a place that feels more neutral yes yes yeah and a lot it's easier to be objective and I tell you folks just because I do this for a living it did not insulate me from going through my own divorce and I the same of emotions and just it was a chip show folks right outside and inside yeah yeah and that's the thing we're like okay just because this is what I do with people for work doesn't mean that like we're human beings.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Didn't it make mine the worst easier to have that experience just because we do this doesn't mean that we aren't human about what happens in our own lives but I think that that's important because that's what is brings connection and also people I think feel really alone and isolated. It is sometimes you know so the more that it's like we feel like this is what we're going through as hard as it is normal lots of people go through it. So that there's a real natural process to this um right that it can feel less isolating less the self-judgment right because and so talking about the self-judgment right the self-judgment the beating yourself up yeah uh so let's talk about how you help people how they treat themselves during transitions yeah yeah I think that there's um somewhat of a cultural um piece here in the US where it's like the expectation is that you know what you're supposed to do and you do it and you move on with it. Whatever that thing is, right? There's a high value in like doing it right, doing it the right way and not taking very long. Yes off to the next you know Instagram worthy you know part of your life and um and I mean encouraged by all those pieces that I see out there about you know like it's you know lives are messy but I think there's a sense of self-judgment in the fact that it's a percent can be a sense of self-protection which should be like okay well if I did these things wrong then I know how to do it right next time and then I won't have XYZ happen or I won't have as much pain or I can avoid this that or the other okay and if that's the case I mean like if it's not saying it's bad to be protecting oneself but um there's a lot more that can be there in this sense. Like we can like you're talking about of you know an awakening or a transformation or coming home to oneself or more peacefulness you know or neutrality yeah so that all h peacefulness neutrality all that can be um an inside job right as well as an expectation of an interaction with the outside world so being in a sense of like sometimes it's like okay well what if what if we take blame off of it for a second? Okay. You know blame off the partner or blame off yourself. Oh true if we take blame out of the picture yeah we got what's what's here to look at I'm not saying they can't go back to blaming anytime you know anytime you want you know but it's like even if we just carve out some time while we're talking where it's like okay if it wasn't about that what might it be about in the stead or in addition to blame yeah go ahead. No no go ahead. And I mean in thinking about like okay so if the self-judgment does um isn't going to be able to protect us entirely because life happens then is there a reason to hang on to it okay and if there's a reason to hang on to it that that's you know important and then hang on to it.

unknown 32:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

That's not meant to be like trying to lead somebody to a certain place but be like yeah I'd much rather judge myself in this moment consciously than you know see see what is on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Fair enough do you now switching gears but kind of along the same topic do you see people treating themselves negatively when they're dealing with job changes or job layoffs? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Oh yeah yeah for sure like it job changes is such an identity shift right being laid off hit to the confidence for some people right and so be like oh man I should have I should have seen this coming I should have been smarter I should have been looking sooner I shouldn't have said this thing to this other person because that didn't look very good politically if they're working in a corporate environment and I know not everybody is or um I shouldn't have gone into this field to begin with I should have picked something else like there's all places the brain will go to in terms of judgment. Wow I and I'm not saying that when I talk to people I'm like okay I'm not saying that any of that isn't true. You may or may not have had a different experience if you choose something else to do for a living. We would have had a different experience but we don't know if it would have been better or worse.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

We can't say so is it do you want to do do we want to do something about it now?

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Because if you want to go through the therapeutic part of the process like how do my family dynamics get me to this place and all that that would be you know work with a counselor with a therapist talking from the coaching standpoint it's like okay some of those things might be true but we have no way of knowing and that's part of that uncertainty where staying with the uncertainty in and of itself can have benefits. It's uncomfortable but we can say we don't know so when when people have a job change or a layoff and and they come to you is is there like a search and focus like okay well let's let's let's figure out what's next what do you want to do next yeah so if they've got the anchor down right they're in enough of a place where we can start to talk about what's next or what they want next there's we can narrow it in in a couple of ways one is what do they need in their life logistically how does work need to work for them and that changes all the time right if you're single if you're partnered if you're taking care of family members right um so those logistics how much do you need to make are you looking at benefits right all these kinds of nuts and bolts about work getting clear about that in this moment which might be different than it was before and then maybe different in the future but what's our snapshot right now of how work needs to work and then who are you as a human being which comes back to this idea of like all right how do you get reconnected to yourself we're bigger than what we do for a living we're bigger than our partnerships you know in terms of who we are you know right sense of you know self and connectedness and sense of identity sense of identity right so we can get that identity here and we know based on the sense of identity and we know based on like logistics of the way work needs to work because this is we there's a lot of survival stuff around work in our country. So if we can get these two things narrowed in then we're working in a pool of stuff that we know okay will most likely work better. Now some people be like they want to know for sure. So they're like I could go back to what I was doing but I want to explore and see if there's something else so that they can be confident in their decision that they've been thorough about it right and they've looked at the options. They may end up going and doing the thing they did before but they want to look at it. Maybe they've always had a dream of doing something else and then we can find out is that is now the time to step into it and sometimes it is and sometimes it's not but they're the whole idea is for them to be able to get behind it in a way that's like this is my ownership my my own self-authority around what's right for me. Because so much of when you know what we have in our society and work is um is not geared around that in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

You know it's a it's amazing how much our identity our sense of self is tied up with our jobs relationships.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yeah and in some ways it's wonderful right like if you have you know great relationship and or how much you love your kids you know like if you have a job that works for you whatever your definition of working for you is um that's that can feel great and there's times when you know we're both working with people when it's not feeling so great it's not always going to feel that way but it is at the moment so another area that you help people in so far we've talked about age milestones uh we talked about divorce we talked about job changes or job layoffs and another area that you help people with is is health.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah can can you uh how do you help people with that?

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah so there's two areas where that happens most one if someone has a their own health condition and that's changed their relationship to their identity and their self and most likely their earning right like how they're supporting themselves and so um uh I've had clients with concussions with cancer with things they have experiences where their priorities drastically shift right based on possible they have to right or because they're so changed from their physical experience and emotional and mental experience right so there's that so like working with people that are on medical leave that happens quite a bit people who have medical leave at work and they're not sure they can go back to work in the sense that they can but they're like that environment is terrible I don't want to go back right I'm sick because of that environment I'm sick because of that environment I had to take a leave because of that environment. So um there's that and then it's like people we love and care about so um whether a a loved one is ill or has died like I work with you know folks that are taking care of other people right caregiving parents changes things um um when people lose people when people die oh yeah it changes the outlook on the world what's what's even important anymore right okay happen pretty frequently and especially for caregivers if a lot whether it's for your uh partner or if it's a child or a parent right it's wait a minute I would I would think they would see a grief counselor oh yes they should see a grief counselor oh yeah and that's what I mean like for me it's like I'm not a divorce coach in the sense that I'm gonna walk somebody through the process of divorce I'm not a grief counselor which means I'm not gonna like walk somebody specifically through with their grief. I'm not a nutrition coach right so I'm not gonna like tell people what I think they should eat you know but when we talk about an identity change or transformation or something that's going on in relationship to what's happening with their work life what's happening to their personal life and where they are in that journey right okay then there's support for for that kind of that kind of experience. Now some people will go see a counselor, a therapist and that'll be all they need. Some people don't want to go see a therapist they don't want therapy. No they don't have a coach instead of a therapist and that's that's fine too.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

You know it's that I I really appreciate you kind of making that differentiation between in especially in terms of like I'm I'm you know I'm not here to give you therapy about the divorce walking through that or even or grief because for my own self like I I had a therapist that helped me process the feelings but now that I think about it it would have been nice to have had a coach after I had processed out some of the feelings of course because there are a lot of feelings to process than to work with a coach and just in terms of okay well where'd I go from here because I yeah now what? Because I don't I have no clue what I want you know where you know where I want to live do I want to stay in Washington do I want to do I want to go back home to Hawaii which actually did go back home to Hawaii for a bit. Yeah like I don't know what the hell I'm doing I don't know what I want.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Right can you help me please yes and that's the coaching part of it right which is let me sort out what I want and from where I am right now. So yeah I have like amazing people that I know that are therapists that are death doas that are divorce coaches you know we know much of those people in common too right um and those are the folks that work in that during that time around that specific place right and then it's like okay now what? What's next? How do I know what's next?

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah what's next that's a big part in determining yeah but if someone's in that major grief place there's no room for the what's next right there's still staying with the the sadness and all the other feelings that grief brings right and just if if I had walked if I had met with a coach without processing those feelings first I wouldn't have been ready.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

No it was so raw. Right or if you're going through divorce and the main thing you want to do is ask questions like about parenting plans or okay and divorce coaches can help on the next part of life too but this is the idea of like okay what does it mean how many you know if I'm am I gonna do mediation right what's happening in this you know how do I advocate for myself in the divorce process like all of that yeah divorce coach get you through the thing okay and then now what?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Let's figure that out because you're not who you used to be and you're not who you are going to be yet great um so yeah so that's that's an important clarification as well too just in terms of again that divorce coach is that one that helps you to figure out what a parenting plan is going to look like how to how to advocate for yourself in your divorce then you come in in terms of well What's my identity now? What do I want to, you know, where am I where's my next chapter? What is my next chapter of life going to look like?

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Yeah, and and a lot of the way that I interact with um the divorce community is around the piece around how work does that, right? Because there's a so in terms of like it there's an area of expertise in there, right? Which is like that identity piece around, okay, now what do I want to do? What how what do I need to do? Who am I becoming in terms of identity, in terms of who I am in the world? A lot of that in our society is about work.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Okay, yeah. Is there a so in in terms of um I I would imagine there's some sort of a common framework that you assist people with, whether it's divorce, age milestones, health or job changes or layoff, is it is there a certain again, just a formula of framework about like, you know, okay, well, we're gonna talk about like what happens, what's going on. Um what else?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah, so the the idea would be it's like okay, in the we get the anchor down okay in the stormy seas. So it'd be like, okay, how do you get connected? How do we reframe some perspective about it, right? If that's necessary, get to a place where there's more neutral, right? Standpoint. And then we say, all right, so from there we start to look at what's possible or what you want. How do you get reconnected to yourself to understand that, right? There's a process I have called threads that really helps to do that. And then it's this way. What's the process called again? Threads. Oh, threads, okay. Who am I as a person? Often use it for folks with work because it helps a lot with that too. But this idea of like when we're talking about like who am I, who have I been, and then who am I becoming, and this idea of like, okay, we have a base of who we are, and then we express it in different ways at different points in our lives. It's like most clear-cut when we talk about like, so for me and think about my work, like I sold hosiery, I sold hosiery at a retail store. And then I worked at Nike in IT, and I worked at a nonprofit with students with disabilities, and now I'm a coach in private practice. I'm gonna get the same commonalities that go through all of these things. Really different things that I've done for work. But how I show up in all those things is very consistent. And so when I know that, when I know that I have those things that are very consistent, I'm just looking at the next way I'm gonna express myself. So I'm allowing myself the freedom to have an awakening, to transform, to change, to see what's coming that's new, it's possible. What things am I reconnecting to about myself that have always been true about me so that I can move forward.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Oh, that's interesting. Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

This is a big question mark. A lot of people might be going through that in terms of like, never had to look for a job in tech, right? They've always been recruited for things, and then there's specific things that they no longer can do because of the way that the way the industry's transforming. And now they have to look for a job. They never had to look for a job, and not only that, it's highly competitive, and then the skills that they have aren't necessarily needed in the same way anymore. So what on earth are they gonna do? Let's talk about who they are. And then that may require, you know, retraining or any of those kinds of things, but it can be painful.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

You know what? It just it just popped in my head. I'm like, oh my goodness, I should refer my soon-to-be ex-husband to you because he got laid off from this job of like 15, 16, 17 years. And I'm sure he's going through it's like who's you know, he's he's like mid-50s. And I he was in he was in uh stable. It's like who's gonna hire him? I'm sure he's experienced in a big identity loss in crisis, but he would probably scoff at me. Like, no, I'm good, but but you would benefit from you. Wait, and did I hear you say that you used to sell holes holsery? Yeah, what I didn't know. There was a a store with I'm assuming it was a retail department, and was at the department selling holsery.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Well, I know. Yeah, I probably don't even call that anymore. But yeah, it was at um when at least it was in Portland, Oregon. It was at Meyer and Frank, which used to Macy's purchased it. So it was a long, long, long time ago. Yeah. Was this in the 90s? Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah, it was in the 90s. Yeah, and I remember I was like, people were like, I can't believe they put you because I they you didn't have any control over it. Like, I got a job there for the summer, you know, for the for the holidays.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Um, summer holiday, winter break, all those things, spring break. I'd come back home from school and I'd work at Myron Frank. And you don't get to choose your department. Oh, they just put you wherever they need you. Oh, jeez. And they put them in hosiery and laundry. And I was like, you pick the worst person. Like I could care about any of these things. Like just send me some anywhere else, right? And um we, you know, had a lot of laughs about it. But when I look back at it, there's certain things like they wanted me to sell a certain product because it was on sale. I wanted people to come in and I wanted to talk to them about what they needed.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

I wanted them to tell me what they were looking for. I wanted to have a conversation with them about it. I wanted to help them find what they were looking for, but also teach, like, not, you know, teach teach, but like explain to them what options they had, right? And why this would be better for what they want. And that would, I didn't care what gender, whatever. How can I help you find what you need? Oh, I see. So then it's like, and then I was like very big on being like, I'm not gonna force anybody to buy something just because you think they should have it. They should be empowered on their own to not only decide what they want for themselves, but to also come back and not necessarily need my help to do it, right? To feel like they can make that choice and have enough information. I mean, and it didn't matter to me whether they were excited about it or not. Like they may love hooserie. But then yeah, like I'm not, it's not up to me whether you should or shouldn't be excited about heights, you know. But I had to find some way to get behind that job. And for me to get behind that job was to do it in my own way. Now that didn't make me a great salesperson, like I didn't rack up any records, you know. Well, but and it but it's very is a very in early formative part, you know. I I think I was 16, 17 years old. Oh, that was really young about how um my relationship to work or my relationship to how I want to do something that that's important, and that's carried through all of my career. Like I do the same things with people now, just about different topics. And I have much more satisfaction now than doing it in IT, right? Or doing it at a retail store. But if I but if I get blocked and I can't do that, it's problematic. Like if they were to come down and say you're gonna get fired if you don't do X, Y, and Z. Right? Or no, you don't you don't get to help anybody, just ring them up. Very problematic. I would have been so unhappy.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

You know, it sounds like you were coaching people from a young age on what hosiery to buy. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah, yeah, and I didn't know it then, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Wow, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yeah, but I had similar kinds of consultative roles at Nike and IT. I mean, it was never the coder, you know, that never worked out well for me. It was always people, it's always people for me.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Yeah, and you still don't you uh don't you do a workshop? Can you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah, so um I have a workshop called Finding Your Center in Career Uncertainty, and it's it's all about that spot where you're putting the anchor down. Okay, it's about coming to a place of saying, okay, this this is really uncomfortable, or for people who have been looking for a long time, right? And they're just coming up against blocks, right? Like this just isn't working, or people who are like the market, right, is really unpredictable right now. I'm very pretty scared about it. And so it's this idea that you can how to get into this space where you can deal with the uncertainty of it in a way that feels better. So then you can get to a place of looking at like, okay, well, then what's next about that?

SPEAKER_01 53:10

And that is called that workshop is called Finding Your Center in a Career.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yeah, well, this one I'm doing on the seventh is career uncertainty, but I've done just finding your center uncertainty in general, too, which is like for any kind of transition.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

So you have a workshop finding your center in career uncertainty and finding your center in uncertainty.

unknown 53:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

And how how do people, if people are interested in that workshop, it's on Zoom?

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yeah, it's on Zoom.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

For how long?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

It's just just an hour long. Oh, okay. An hour? Okay, yeah, just real easy. Something I mean, when people are stressed out, just kind of like we were talking about before, like working together for 90 days, like you know, working together for three months as an amount of time you can get your head around. We're on Zoom so much, right? It's just like just do this for an hour. Just things that you can use, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Yeah, yeah. So do you if so, how do people uh if they're interested in this workshop, where do they go to?

SPEAKER_00 54:11

Yeah, on my website, there's a tab for workshops. And so coachingforclarity.net, and there'll be a workshops tab.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Okay. Coachingforclarity.net is is your website, and they just look for the tab that says workshops.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Okay. And do you have uh other resources like a newsletter or workbook?

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Yeah, I have a newsletter and um people can sign up for that. I don't like stuff happens like my business coach is so funny, and they're like, You should be writing, writing, writing. And I'm like, it happens when it happens, folks. It's not like if you sign up for it, you're gonna get a newsletter a week. Um but yeah, I have um people do that. Oh, that's too much. A lot. I'm impressed. Um, but they have um, but I have two workbooks. One's called Weathering a Work Change. And so that's a workbook on my site, and the other one's a threads workbook that walks people through that process for helping to identify that um consistency about who they are.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Okay, so to find out more information about Aubrey's Zoom workshops, um to sign up for her newsletter, or to get her workbooks, threads, or the workbook weathering work change, then just go to um coaching for clarity.

unknown 55:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

And so is that the best way for people to get a hold of you too? Go to your website.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yeah, you can go to my website. People can call, text, email me, whatever works best for them is totally fine. You can also go out, I have a 30-minute free consultation, and so people are welcome to schedule that online on the scheduling tab.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

All right. So there you have it, folks. To get a hold of Aubrey, go to coachingforclarity.net and schedule your appointment. She's here to help you with those life changes, and man, I wish I I knew of you when I was going through big life change. I mean, I still am, but I'm at the I'm coming out of it.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Yeah, you're on the new beginning part. I'm on the new beginning part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Well, thank you so much, Aubrey. It was it was such a pleasure to have you on today.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

And um, for all my listeners out there, uh, thank you for joining. Don't forget to hit that subscribe and like button. And this is Lonnie Aciona of Akiona Law. Again, the podcast wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the area of family law and divorce. Until next time, be well. The information in this podcast is general advice only and should not in any respect be relied on as specific legal advice.