Lessons Learned from Dany Inman

#71

This episode contains loads of value for those getting started, those with experience and everyone else in between!

At any one time, property investor Danny Inman has a £25 million pipeline of projects in development so he knows a thing or two about property.

As  the founder of the Prosperity Network, Danny is also passionate about the importance of both education and community, and has mastered the art of networking so much so that he receives 8,000 notifications a day.

Fortunately he keeps his phone on silent.

In this wide ranging interview, we talk about  scaling up ahead of the curve,  how  return on time invested is so significant and why hobby landlords are becoming a thing of the past.

Danny's Desert Island Property Disc was More Money More Problems

Please rate review and follow the show at www.expatpropertystory.com

Keywords
property investor, pipeline of projects, 2008 property crash, Rugby League, civil engineering, property sourcing company, Chinese takeaway, business growth, lettings agency, 1200 tendencies, pandemic, sourcing properties, private finance, single lets, HMOs, office to residential conversions, high street conversions, Prosperity Network, coaching and mentoring service, spotting trends, addiction, gambling, drinking, drugs, work gratification, challenges, instant gratification, addictive personalities, breaks, toxic hustle mentality, genetic predisposition, personality match, messages, social media notifications, value of network, community, abundance mindset, sharing information, networking, education, market statistics, practicality, sensationalization, market copying, active trainers and coaches, understanding the current market, market factors, supply, demand, availability of finance, phone engagement, success through engagement, individual goals, hustle space, education space, social media impact, valuable information, disingenuous marketing tactics, affordability, up-to-date information, active investors, selling education, abundance mindset, hobby landlord dangers, Harare, Zimbabwe, expat property investors, property journey, buy-to-let properties, legislation, portfolio landlords, small portfolios, housing shortage, capital gains changes, demand for all types of housing, the right education, 9 to 5 job, government as a business, taxation, legislative policy changes, political currency, informed investors, high rental income, strong tenant demand, working with the right people, long-term leases, international investors, UK market interest.

Transcript

0:01

I just really believe in the value of networking community, and that abundance mindset of bringing a lot of people together can gain a lot of results know, if I give somebody else success, that doesn't deduct from my own potential success. And I saw that quite early, and it's probably my biggest blessing is that I've never really being in that scarcity space. Because if I don't share information, how can I expect somebody else to share information with me? Or if I don't, help somebody out in a deal who's gonna help me when I need help. If you go in with that scarcity, your mindset is so damaging to people, but they don't realize it. And I think if I've had one blessing, it's the fact that I put so much value on abundance and community and network, and I invest so much energy into it. And it's repaid me millions of times over, ultimately. You're listening to expat property story, a podcast in which I share my story to smooth the way for you to have your own. Hello there. You're listening to episode 71 of expat property story, and that was the voice of property investor, Danny Inman, who at any one time has a £25,000,000 pipeline of projects in development, so he knows a thing or 2 about property. Danny's property story began just after the last property crash in 2008 after he had opted out of both a career in Rugby League and civil engineering. After attending a property training course as someone else's discounted plus 1, he started a property sourcing company while delivering Chinese takeaways in the evenings so that he didn't have to take any money out of his property business as it grew. In the meantime, he set up a lettings agency which at one point grew to 1200 tendencies before selling it during the pandemic. After 18 months of sourcing properties for others, Danny started to build his own portfolio and soon realized he could scale his property business more quickly by using private finance. He started with single lets before branching out into HMOs, followed by office to residential conversions before tackling high street conversions. Danny also describes himself as the accidental leader of the Prosperity Network, a community driven coaching and mentoring service whose aspiration is to build the best property investment community that exists. Dani attributes his success to staying ahead of the curve spotting trends before everyone else and then selling units once the mainstream catches up. We started, however, with Danny's desert island property desk There's a tyrant, property desk. The moment involve problems, I think, probably. It's a famous wrapping song that I use quite a bit as a reference when people think it gets a lot easier. as you progress in property when, actually, it doesn't get easy. You just get better at dealing with all the crap that gets thrown at you ultimately in our space. If anything, It's getting harder in the UK now to be successful in property because of legislation and policies and funding departments. and also lack of productivity just generally as a nation is creating challenges for us with builders solicitors, getting anybody to do anything pace has got more challenging. So no. It definitely doesn't get easier. You just get better at dealing with it and also understand the challenge a little bit more. I think you'll expect stations become a bit more set. So, no, you just get better. I feel that it comes almost like a different sport every few years. So, I mean, we've had all these years of low interest rates, and everyone thought they knew how to do it. And now it's like a new playing field, and you've gotta learn a whole set of different rules. Yeah. Like a car of effectively where, principally, the cars all look the same, but what's going on under the bonnet is changing all of the time and and has to change because of external factors. So, yeah, I know I'd massively agree with that. I think people make and mistake because they think they know property because they've done it 10, 15 years ago. and it's very, very different. The space today is very, very different. So even speaking to people, I respect that I've done very well in property 10 or 15 years ago, but The ones that know the market best today are the ones that are active in today's market. And even though a lot of the principles and a lot of the lessons and approaches and mind that stay the same. The approach has to change, I think. On your website, it says, if you give enough people what they want, you will always get what you want, which is a quote by someone called Zig Zieglar. Never heard of him before, but I've since learned a bit about him. Can you expand on that? I'm a big believer to bring Karma, good and bad. And I think that if you ultimately help a lot of people to achieve their goals, a percentage of those people will remember, and it does come back to you. So a big part of my career in investing has been about building community where this cross benefit and people always say, oh, you know, why would you educate somebody to learn about property if if that's what you're doing, aren't you teaching people to come into your market? ultimately, I am. I I want that, but then these people might bring me a deal that they can't do. They might bring me a buyer who wants stock that I've got to sell, and I don't think that there's any detrimental impact of having a network of helps each other And, ultimately, I've always found that those that I've given the most help, it's always come back to me in some way, whether that's then, you know, doing very well and becoming a private investor. it's always come back. And I think an educated network and an active network has this phenomenal amount of value. I was gonna bet above and beyond in that, and It's taught me because I wasn't an abundant person. I was very much. I'm gonna withhold the information. If I give you my strategy, then, you know, you're gonna come steal my one deal. So it's a transitional thing for me that has definitely taught me that wealth is in abundance and an abundance you know, can come from you helping someone to help you down the line. I'm gonna test that out then now, Danny. The other thing it says on your website, It's a Warren Buffett quote, and it says, you know, observe the masses, do the opposite. And I know that you kind of are a big believer in scaling up ahead of the curve So you sort of rode the wave of HMOs, sold at the top, moved into commercial to residential before everybody else. So what's the next big thing? What are you gonna do now ahead of everybody else in the spirit of, you know, sharing your secrets? I'll tell you what. I've actually focused a fair bit more energy in the year than I have probably in the 6 or 7 previous is the cyclic nature of property has pushed me back to a lot of the basic stock entry level stock reasonable return in low yielding houses, flats, one beds, two beds. We've gone back to a lot of that in the last six to well, once really simple purchases because I think the cyclic nature of property as a whole, I I've built through that investment triangle from going buy to let social housing, small multilets, HMOs, then commercial to Resi, and then development slightly ahead of a level of demand. And I think a lot of people have abandoned the entry level stuff and probably too early, a little bit because of legislation and buttons a lot of portfolio landlords wanna get out. And that's our target for the year ahead, really. We've got a couple of smallish portfolios, 1 of 10 units, 1 of 20 units, that we're we're agreeing to buy at the moment. It's just very entry vanilla buy to let stock. In our game, people are always looking for what is the next faddy thing, and sometimes people have moved away too quickly from the one thing that they should have focused a lot of energy on. And I think Vital lets is that space at the minute. think there'll be big opportunity, and I do think a lot of it will be long term land mods looking to get out in the next year or so, potentially, before April with the capital gains changes, you'll see a number of landlords looking to get out as well. I think the window over there, a big window of opportunity. But, ultimately, the UK has got such a shortage of everything at the minute. There's not enough buy toilet property. There's not enough social housing. There's not enough asylum seekers housing. There's not enough student housing. So we're demand driven, really, and we try and spot gaps in demand, which is what we've done historically. Actually, I think we're in a different market at the minute. in that there's demand for pretty much everything, and and we need more of everything. The whole curve at the minute is providing more stock. If you're providing stock, you're getting ahead of the curve in in today's market, which is is very interesting. You just mentioned there about landlords getting out of the sector and mutual friend Sean's property tax accountant pointed out to me something quite interesting. There's rise in interest rates is going to push more people into higher tax bracket. So section 24 has kind of come back as an issue, which will create opportunities. Right? Yeah. I know. I think it's no longer worth being a hobby landlord. It used to have a value of was relatively simple, but I wanted to have houses sit on them for 10 years, rent them out, hobby landlords that 20 years previously have kind of been able to fudge their way through it, but I think there's no value in that now. And I think it's actually quite high risk. in that you could get caught by a legislative policy. You could get caught by taxation that you weren't expecting. I see people love doing, oh, I wanna get into property, and you go, well, do you know there's an extra 3% stand for him? Scotland, an extra 6% stand out. Do you know all of these policy changes I might manage it myself and you go, bloody hell. The legislation now, the tenancy legislation is so vast that that's a massive risk. and there's so much political currency being used in supporting tenants, which actually, you know, you'll see on my social media talk about how A lot of the policies designed to help actually end up hindering the people they were designed to help to. There's a lot of political currency and There's so much information now for tenants to try and take action against the landlord that, ultimately, if you're a hobby landlord, you're probably quite exposed in today's market as well. So I think a lot of those guys, 1 to 5 properties, they will be making a decision on whether it has the value for them to stay in the market. You mentioned just there about hobby landlords, and there are quite a few time poor expat property investors. They've got quite a lot of money they've saved up. So what would you say to those expat investors who've maybe got 1 or 2 on the side? What would you advise them? When I talk about a hobby investor, I literally just talk about somebody who's watched homes under the hammer, and they go, it must be easy to buy a I'm gonna do a viewing. I'm gonna make an offer. They've not done any calculations. They don't understand that there's additional stamp duty. They've never heard of the section 24. You know, all of these additional policies is not a good place to be uninformed at the minute. Definitely not. I mean, you need to make a decision on whether you're gonna scale further. It's an incredible place to grow a portfolio. If you're informed, you know, great opportunity, great returns. Rental income versus asking prices are still very strong. tenant demand is incredible. It's the highest it's ever been. If you're buying an asset, property in the UK ticks a lot of boxes in the return it gives you and the security of the return potentially. And, you know, the the level of demand and and sustainability of return is is incredibly strong. know, the biggest tip is to make sure you're working with the right people and doing it in the right way, and you're clear on the plan. You know, being very clear on the plan and the potential illations to make sure that you're buying in the right way. A plan for growth is important. Security of tenancy is important. We work with a lot of international investors. They're buying the 5, 7, 10 year leases, FRI leases with social housing providers and things like that. That's solid. They're very rubber stamps. And, ultimately, you're passing a lot of the legislative liability onto the provider. This is a bit more work in getting set up, but once it's set up, you know your position for 5, 7, 10 years. So I think any investor, but also an international investor, understand your objectives and your reasons for getting into the UK market. Understand the market itself and where your potential exposure points are by working with the right people and then invest in a way that's gonna fulfill your outcome and satisfy what your outcome goals are There's still a huge interest in the UK market because of the market itself. The returns and the demand are absolutely incredible compared to other international markets. So it's a good place to be, but it's a good place to be informed. It's a dangerous place to be uninformed. Yeah. And just to add to that information, I was looking into social housing myself, but at the moment. I know it's a roller coaster ride with interest rates. Yep. But the interest rates for social housing is like about 8% at the moment. Yep. Yep. Big time. Yep. I mean, temporary, we have quite high level discussions with a number of lenders, and they're panicking on the other side now that they're getting too many redemptions on that they can't get their money out because lenders only make money when they lend money. I think we now seek to interest rate risk, and we might move up a little bit more, but you know, I think a lot of the lenders already are now saying it's not gonna peak at the level they first suspected it might. I think we'll see a big appetite change there. A lot of our social housing investors are cash investors because they know that they're gonna get 8 to 10%, and the return is largely net. You got no expenses, really, no outlay, no maintenance, no management. So we're getting a lot of international cash investors that want that. certainty of an 8 to 10% return. While doing my research for this episode, I came across another podcast interview with Danny in which he said he loves the hustle. I wondered what he meant by that. I think, you know, this game does weird things to you a little bit. I've got a very addicted personality. You're probably dangerous So if it wasn't business, I could probably get addicted to something far more damaging. I've just become quite fortunate that I've become addicted to something that has a positive outcome in most cases. So I avoid gambling. I don't really ever drink. I've never took drugs in my life because I know my personality is that I could become addicted. So I have a very addictive nature, but I love this addiction. I find it very gratifying and in the most selfish way. It's extremely self serving. It's an easy measure, you know, to measure things monetarily and the success of a deal is is on its monetary measure and all of that. I love everything about it. It has its challenges, and these days are challenging, but There's a lot of instant gratification from the puzzle, and I think that's ultimately what a lot of people are looking for, isn't it? And it's the dopamine rush. Right? Heat ton. Deliver. I'm I'm I'm an odd character. I'm I'm entirely aware, and my wife points out to me just how unusual I am. I think a lot of people in property have that sort of addictive personality. Yeah. The hustle thing is is a difficult word because I'm very anti, you know, generic statement. You have to get up at 4 and you have to jump in an ice bath and you have to live this life. You know, people hustle in different ways and at different levels relative to their capacity or what they wanna do when they're enjoying them. I'm genuinely energized by life because I enjoy what I do. So it doesn't feel, you know, people will say to me, oh, you need a break. You kinda go, I I don't need a break. Like, you probably need a break because you're not enjoying your Monday to Friday job or why maybe. I I really enjoy it coming out here on a Saturday and doing a meeting this morning and then having this chat with you. It's no different to me as if it was a Monday or Wednesday. Like, I just genuinely enjoy it, and I'll commit the time to it. There is a toxic hustle space in property and entrepreneurialism where you can't force people to love it, and you shouldn't try and force people to love it. And that's when it becomes toxic. It becomes toxic. Oh, you've gotta get a for it, and you've gotta do this and. If you'd teach for fish to climb a tree, it's gonna spend its whole life thinking it's stupid. It's the same thing Some people just are not genetically billed to love the hustle, and that that's fine. That is absolutely fine. I have no issues with that. So I'm always wary of that discussion point of going into a space that's very generic. And, ultimately, the way I believe my life isn't right for everybody. It or everybody else isn't right for the way that I lead my life. You know, there needs to be some synergies and matches of personnel and and activity. You know, people wouldn't love my life, but you look at my life, and you think it's amazing. But I'm answering messages at 2 AM, and I get 8000 social media notifications a day, and that's amazing. Hey. 8000. 8000. Yeah. Across all platforms, we do 8000 We have a notification up counter, and and we do 8000 notifications a day on average. Do you ever forget to switch off the what do they call it? Sound and haptics. I I I don't have I don't have my phone on silent because it wouldn't stop all the wires whenever I was speaking. everybody. I have it on silent, but I'm largely I very rarely miss messages as in don't reply at all, and I barely rarely don't engage. And that comes, you know, that's probably full circle. So there's exiggler thing. I think a lot of my success. has come from the fact that I personally engage with a lot of people, and I have conversations with a lot of people, and and they remember that. And That's not right for most people. That that level of messaging would send a lot of people under. They wouldn't be able to, you know, even tolerate it, and then they would have the emotional or reply. I shouldn't have replied. You know? It isn't right. It's not right for a lot of people, but my personality suits the way that I operate and the all for want of a better word. I can tolerate it. I can handle it. I can live that life, whereas other people just they couldn't, and I am okay with that. People have different goals to me, so they don't need to do the same volume of activity if they've got a different level of goals. But I am acutely aware of the fact that there is a top -- sick environment in that whole hustle space as well. And when I was thinking about what to focus on in this episode, if I think about HUSL and Danny, I think about networking, and community. You've created a network and created a community. Is that fair? Yeah. I think so. Online and offline, to be honest, the social media side of thing was a massive accident 4 or 5 years ago that we just seen such an incredible response rate from, but it all comes back to that initial statement in that I just really believe in the value of network and community, and that abundance mindset of bringing a lot of people together can gain a lot of results. know, if I give somebody else success, that doesn't deduct from my own potential success. And I saw that quite early, and it's probably my biggest blessing is that I've never really been in that scarcity space. Because if I don't share information, how can I expect somebody else to share information with me? Or if I don't help somebody out in a deal who's gonna help me when I need help. If you go in with that scarcity, it's so damaging to people, but they don't realize it. And I think if I've had one blessing, it's the fact that I put so much value on abundance and community and network, and I invest so much energy into it. And it's repaid me millions of times older, ultimately. You say you put a lot of value on networking, but I also know that you put a lot of value on education. So I've got a difficult question for you here, Danny. What do you think is more important if you have to choose network or education? It's a difficult question. I was gonna say you wouldn't have a difficult question for me because I usually find them easy to answer even when most people cringe at some questions. Well, that is a difficult question for me. So you've done well. You've got me out. education or network. I find it so hard to separate. Ultimately, I would probably say. I think if you don't have them both, you just struggle with either. So without a network, you can know it all, but your ability to put the education in place will be completely impossible. without the education, you can have the world's best network, but you've got nothing to use it for. So I I I I see them com completely hand in hand. I would probably marginally, marginally say education. You know, you could have an amazing network if we're doing amazing things. But if you have no idea how to implement what they're doing, it will be very, very difficult for you. So, marginally, education, I would say. To be fair, it was an unfair question, wasn't it? But it did get a good answer, I think. I hope so. Here's another thing that you said. The government's plan is to teach people to get a job, pay tax, and die. So that brings us a little bit into education. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And and the right and wrong education. I mean, the right and wrong education for the right person. Again, it probably comes back to that, are you the right person? A lot of people, the government's plan is the right plan. You know, 99% of people The way they are personality wise, their goals in life, their objectives, the way they wanna live their life, the 9 to 5 is right. It's it's the right approach. You know? There's this whole romanticism about being a business owner running your life being tax effective and all of that, but it's hard work. It's not easy. Like, it's so much more work. I've never worked harder in my whole life than when you work for yourself rather than other peoples. But the government's plan I'm not a conspiracist. but I do view the government as a big business. It's the biggest business that we have in any country by a long, long way. And as a business owner, which I am, I do wanna know where my staff are. I do wanna know that they're doing their jobs, that they're paying their dues, that what we're paying them is being earned. So if you extrapolate that out to the government and government operating as a business, then in practicality, they do want to know what their income is gonna be from tax to They do need to know what their outgoings are going to be from, you know, benefits and and and all of that. So, principally, the easiest way the government can operate is in having people that just follow that path. More people they've got, they know what their tax can take is gonna be because they know what people are earning, and they know that they're gonna pay their tax. you know, you pay your tax when you're born, you'll live and you die, and the government can plan for that. They can't really plan for a 100% entrepreneurialism with tax breaks and and and all of that. So I'm fairly logical in that approach, and I view the government as this big business. that if people follow the 90 to 5, it's easier for the government to operate their business. So I've seen you talk about the murky world of education What makes your subscription package that you offer different? I'm a product of what people might call the formerly in Berkeley Education Space. I have been in around that base for 15 years now. I think when the property education world started, it was well intended, genuinely well intended. I think what happened, and this probably, again, comes full circle to when we were talking about adapting and changing markets and changing your approach. In about 2015, 16, I first started to notice how much social media and the Internet was changing that space In the when I did the education, profit was a little bit of a secret sauce in the you know, there wasn't a load of information online. There wasn't a load of people on media doing it. What wasn't really a thing? So to find out about property and strategy as an investment, you've even had to know somebody that was doing it. Oh, you had to go and pay for the secret sauce. And I went and paid for the secret sauce. But, unfortunately, in 2015, 16, 17, it was no longer a secret sauce. The information area which we're in now, and we've been in for the last 5 or 6 years at least meant that you could go and get the information. You didn't have to pay 2025 ran for it. You know, the information was out there. You could piece it together. The value in these education worlds wasn't necessarily even the information anymore. It was How do I put it together? What are the relevant market updates? And where's the networking community? That was the thing of value where I need a networking community of people coming together. So what happened in the last 5 or 6 years was that these people, these education companies didn't pivot. More of them were coming into the space with the same offering, the offering started to become a bit disingenuous. You know, if this company could tell you get financially free in a year, we're gonna tell you 6 months because that's gonna get us the sales. or if we've got this amazing, nobody deal, this incredible way of buying, and they started just to if one company had been to Tenery, next company's been to 11 or even. And that's the way that the market became. It became this massive pedestal with ego fest, a hard sale pitch. The pitch had to get harder because, ultimately, selling the product was a harder sell because people didn't need it as much anymore as they did 10, 15 years ago. So I actually think and I say this to a lot of people, 10, 15 years ago, when I did the education with somebody, and it was 18, 19 grand. That had more value then than it being 18, 19 rand today because it was harder information to ascertain and piece together and all that. So I just genuinely think it was well intended, but these companies got so big and so competitive, and they put a story out in a rather. They couldn't pivot. They couldn't move away from it anymore. I moved away from that space 2016, 17, because I became uncomfortable in and around that environment. The network we have, I offer to another company because I'm a developer. I didn't want to be in the education space even though it had served me well. I just wanted to focus on investing. And I said to him, this is the model you need because this is what people value now in the space. You can't charge $20 for it. You're not gonna get away with that. but this is what people still value, and they couldn't pivot. They couldn't move away from their model. But now everyone's doing a similar model to what what we offer now because ultimately, I believe our products is what the people in the space need. It's community. It's abundance. It's regular updates. It's opportunity. It's the ability to do deals. You know, there's a bit of education and content there, but I'm not gonna spend 3 days teaching you about fire doors because that information's everywhere, all these professionals that deal with that information. So I think ours is just slightly different because a, it charges an incredible, probably a lot less be it up to date and see it's a community of active investors. A lot of these sales places, people be made that much money selling the education that they weren't actually acted in property because it was more profitable and easier to sell the tune of property than it was to actually buy property. Whereas, you know, we're far more active in property than we are in education. I put it to Danny that whereas before, people would sign up for a formal property education program, where actually the main benefit was the networking opportunities that came from attending the course. Nowadays, the best way to learn seems to be to join a community of active investors where the education comes from taking action rather than content written by a course provider. actively seeing what people are doing in the market. How are they adapting? The prosperity network was started because I threw a tantrum basically. And I threw a tantrum because when COVID hit, we didn't exist as an education company at this point. A lot of the other education companies did one of 2 things they either completely disappeared and went silent, and that really annoyed me because I've got people spent 10, 20 grand here and you're giving them no reassurances. And I understand this is a difficult time, but this is a we're all in it together. Don't just close-up shop and try and look after yourself. You know? You need that community. Other providers use fear tactics. This is a you know, there's a great opportunity. Everything's gonna crash. The world's gonna you're gonna clean up. And if you get educated, you can clean up with us, and I thought that was bullshit as well. So I've just threw a tantrum when COVID hit and went, right, we're all in this. No one really knows what's going on, but I'll give you my perspective on what I think might happen. I'll bring other people in who what are they seeing? How's the market from the front line? What are we doing on the front line? And I literally just started a Zoom call. I think it was mid April. No one knows what's going on, but let's get on a call. together, and let's just, you know, build a bit of a we're all in it together, I think. And we had nine hundred people on a call, and he's like, oh, Christ, look. Obviously, a lot of people bought at home. We didn't know to do. We did those calls for 12 weeks with no intention of starting an education company whatsoever. It was literally just that I'm annoyed but I'm still active. I'm doing bits on the front line, and and let's all talk about what we're doing. And, yeah, at the end of those 12 weeks, people were coming to us and going, oh, well, what's next? I'm We had no intention whatsoever of starting the model even though I thought I knew what the market needed. Honestly, people look at me like this was a bit of genius, completely accidental. are very quickly realized people now are valuing more a calm voice or a bit of certainty from one person or a collection of people updates to what other people are actually doing out there and how that's feeding back and the results that they're getting community is the value. You know, the information's great, but people want community. They want support, and they want reassurance, uncertainty, any changing mark. And I think, you know, that's why we've done very well in the last 2 years. Because when everyone's been going, markets booming or, well, markets crashing, we've always been like, well, here's the actual stats, and here's inquiry rates, response rates, and I think how sensational you make properly sound is so slow. It's slow to grow, and it's so slow to fall It's slow to transact. Everything's slow. So there's this massive media interest, and that became what a lot of people were selling on the back of. But my practicality is everything's pretty slow and logical, and and it's it's a good market to be in as a result. So we're trying to make it less murky, and, hopefully, it's getting less murky. I hope it is. Our model is getting heavily copied now, and and we're acutely aware of it. And other people will be really annoyed by it. But for me, I'm like, it's what the market needs. So if other people copy it and do it well, fair play to them. Like, that's actually what the market needs. So -- So here comes my devil's advocate question. I had a quick little look on your web site for the subscription service, and you you, like, have trainers and coaches. But it's not clear who the trainers and coaches are. I mean, it's a difficult one, is that? Because A primary push for us is that our training and coaches have to be people that are very active in property. You know? And that's forever changing. So we've got from our trainers and coaches because we have this abundant give back environment. Some of our guys wanna do five people a month. Some wanna do ten people a month. what we don't wanna do is put people on the website who have already got that full quota because otherwise, people are gonna go, I wanna work with that person, and then they'll be disappointed when that person's not available. And and and, again, that's just I'm not gonna say come and get coached by, no, a name Michael Oman, who's doing incredible things in new build property. Come and get coached by him. And I'll get somebody to buy and then go, oh, no. Actually, he can't be coached by here. He's he's full. I don't wanna miss sell anybody on you could be coached by that person who's full in it. He doesn't say on the Instagram. We've got highlights on the Instagram on who the coaches are, and we advertise them. I'm only gonna advertise somebody who's available. I'm not gonna try and sell on the back of somebody who's a a full quote. It's just not our way, really. So that's probably why. Fair enough. Okay. I think this is the last difficult question coming up. you've kind of answered it a little bit earlier when you said that it's a very different world now than it was 10 to 15 years ago. And actually, the people who are involved now, possibly no more than the people who did 10, 15 years ago. But, for example, have you got coaches who have been through a property crash or a recession or a correction, whatever you wanna call it. Mixed opinions again on that, and we have a very mixed range of coaches. We have coaches who have exactly been and nearly lost pretty much everything that they had during the previous correction and whatnot. But I think 2 different opinions. I speak to people who bought 20 years ago and went through the crash and aren't active anymore. And those people will tell you how bad the crash was. If you speak to people who bought 20 years ago and are still buying today and are still active, the crashes of small blip in their memory. You know, I speak to some incredibly successful people and multi, multi millionaires, billionaires in some cases. And you speak to those guys about 2007 to 2008. What was it like in the car? Yeah. It's a bit tough for a couple of years, but we got through it. Ultimately, I wouldn't necessarily say somebody's been for a recession is a great coach. It would depend on what they learned through the recession. And are they still active today as a result of the recession? I'm relatively young, so even though I've been at 15 years, I joined just on the back of the last recession. So I'm probably about to go through. Well, I am. I'm definitely going through the 1st full cycle as it were. You know, I had a few people talking to me about them going, oh, you're 31. 32. You've never seen this. You've never seen that. I see everything today. I'm completely live in the market today. I track everything. I'm understanding the market that you're in And what might change and why might change is almost certainly more important than understanding a market that happened 20 years ago. think people are very quick to try and compare markets. Everybody wanted to say that when COVID hit, this was the new 2008, And that made no sense to me. Banks were in an entirely different place. The market is in an entirely different place. Supply and demand was an entirely different place. So Everyone was coming out of the screaming crash crash crash in 2020 hit. And a lot of people was those people that would blend through the crash and went, well, I saw a crash, and this looks exactly the same. And I was going, well, I didn't see the crash, but I can tell you this doesn't look exactly the same because of x, y, and zed. If you strip it all back, 3 pillars of property are supplydemand availability of finance. They're the only three things that are ever going to dictate what happens in the market. Even COVID didn't slow the house prices because one of those 3 pillars wasn't impacted. The only change has now happened at the start of the end of this year, and that's because of liquidity of finance or availability to get a decent level of finance. But I think that will change again as we've discussed at the start of q 1. So Because somebody's seen a market in 2007 and 80, I think a lot of people who spoil that market saw it completely wrong. I did mean the ones who went through it in a still in it. I didn't mean the one to kind of, you know, fell away. You know what I will say about those people is they diminish it because some people will get stoned But when you speak to the very successful people who came through it, who stayed active and are still successful, they just view it as a temporary blip that they had to work through. And in hindsight, if you speak to most of them, weren't that bad. You know, they had some uncomfortable conversations. We speak to the owner, the biggest bridging lender in on a on a regular basis. And he took a tickle, but he talks about relativity and how those 12 to 18 months were very difficult, but the next 2 to 3 years following. That was some of the best he's ever had in business. A lot of successful people probably don't mean to, but they do sort of make little of what was a crush Like many sophisticated property investors, as Danny's property story has evolved, he has started to pay as much attention to his return on investment of time As money. The time valuation thing is probably my biggest passion and strength because I think people focus more on so much more on the capital amount made rather than the time it takes them to make that capital amount. Well, that's an income, whether it's a capital amount, whichever it is. I'm obsessive on return on time because of how busy we are, because of how many bloody notifications I get, and because of how many opportunities we get and all of that. For me, it's always how much time do I have to put in versus the return. So I've spent a lot of time delegating time intensive tasks to other people who are just far better at them. So my my business finance or framing example, he operates the construction company that I know is very time intensive. It isn't my skill set. I wouldn't have the ability, or I don't value that time as much in managing that space. Deal wise, you know, we do a lot planning gains where it's get planning trade on where if we could make a $150 profit today, by giving somebody else the opportunity to build it out versus a 250 grand profit. It's gonna take us a 12 to 18 month build process and would take the $150 all day. Have you got an example of that concrete example? So we did the a building on lee Street. I bought it for 242,000. We got planning to convert it to 12 apartments. We sold it for 4 25. I think we ended up netting about a 150 grand. The GDP of them bill out would have been 1.4,1.5000000, probably 250 to 300 grams worth of equity value if I had to bill it out. We sold it. Is that a $150 worth the amount of time. It's gonna take me managing ability, managing assign manager, you know, managing finance, or I'm happy to take a bit less. If people want to get in touch with you and they should, where should they look? Instagram is the one that I'm most up to date where If you put in Danny in property, you'll find me relatively approachable, I think, and you won't get a sales pitch unless you need it. It's not my way. Well, you've provided fantastic value for our listeners, and it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much. 3 quick highlights from today's episode are 1, the concept of abundance. If I scratch your back, someone else will scratch mine. If you're mean with your knowledge and secretive with your source, it'll come back to haunt you. 2, beware of being a hobby landlord. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with having a couple of buy to lets on the side as an additional income or a hedge against inflation, but it also doesn't mean that you can just set and forget. Dani suggests that if you have less than 5 properties, You're quite exposed in today's climate. And as such, you need to make sure you're working with the right people and keeping on top of changes in legislation. And finally, when asked for his tips on keeping ahead of the curve, Danny revealed that his property story has gone full circle and that he's now looking at standard buy to lets. given the increased demand for family homes. For this week's exotic listener location, we're off to the capital city, Harari, which is probably as exotic a location to the people of last week's location, Gateshead, as the northeast of England is to the people of Zimbabwe, which is where Harari is. As usual, if it's you, please get in touch and tell us about the challenges you face as an expat property investor. And if you'd like to be a guest on the show, you're most welcome. And, of course, that goes for you too. It's great to hear from experts like Danny, but it's equally useful to hear from experts at the start or in the middle of their stories. As Vanessa Warwick from Property tribe says, none of us is smarter than all of us, so please do get in touch. That's precisely what one of our listeners in Singapore did recently and will be hearing his expat property story next week. So tune in for that. In the meantime, please rate, review, and follow the show If you know of anyone that would appreciate hearing about our community of expat property investors, then share the show to spread the word. You've been listening to -- expats. property story.