The Other 6 Days

E.T., A.I. & Eschatology | The Other 6 Days | Episode 35

• Southwest Church • Season 2 • Episode 35

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In this episode, Pastors CJ McFadden & Ricky Jenkins dive right into some topics many people have been asking for... aliens, A.I., heaven, hell and the afterlife! We touch on the doctrines of soteriology & eschatology, addressing some commonly held positions on the millennium. We then provide some biblical insight and "good to knows" on heaven, hell & salvation. We wrap it up with some final thoughts and takeaways as well as helpful information and resources.

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Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gathering, and not just for them. I'm your host, cj McFadden, and I'm here again with Pastor Ricky Jenkins, and today we're going to dive right into a few topics that many of you have been asking for, things like heaven, hell and the afterlife. Wherever we end up, I'm sure it's going to be an engaging and interesting conversation here today, ultimately, as always, our hope and prayers that will orient people to the faith, hope and love we find only in the person of Jesus Christ. So, yes, ricky, we're going there today. And since we're jumping all the way in, I thought why not just open with a hot take from Pastor Ricky Jenkins on the existence of aliens and extraterrestrial beings?

Speaker 2:

I am an alien. There you have it.

Speaker 1:

Do elaborate.

Speaker 2:

Well, for some time we've been talking about hey, we've gotten a few emails and folks have questioned this and this seems to be a hot topic on social media. So, yeah, this is the conversation where we would talk about, you know, ai, but also ET. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Well, I would say, when we first started this, I was like man, where do we start off with this? And I'm like you know, depending on the type of aliens we're talking about, Right, you know. I was like I'm like the ET Wally Johnny Five from Short Circuit. You know. I was like, ok, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then we started like I was looking at like science, quiet place, all the scary, prometheus, alien, predator stuff, and I was like, uh, no, right, right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's a good point, because if you're going to decide to talk about aliens on a church podcast, you do have to have somewhat of a taxonomy. What kind of aliens do we want to talk?

Speaker 1:

about. Well, you know, we get like, uh, we've. I mean we could jump into all different angles. Like you know, fanatics taking Ezekiel gyroscope imagery out of context, and you know, uh, random quotes um, that I saw was um, uh, someone said we can assess, uh, we can assess whether the great silence of the cosmos signifies their absence or simply their preference.

Speaker 2:

The things you get to say when we no one knows, when no one knows yeah, exactly some obscure reference that's good and then someone the other day made a connection.

Speaker 1:

We were all laughing about it.

Speaker 2:

They made a connection between avatar just being the matrix backwards and I was like, oh my gosh, who came up with this? It's so true, I never thought about this. It's so true, I never thought about that, but that's so true.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Wow, I know Okay.

Speaker 1:

Well, what are some of your thoughts?

Speaker 2:

You got any thoughts kind of surrounding this. Well, I think that I think several things you know. First things. First, just kind of vulnerability.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'd be lying if I didn't say, even as a Christian, a young Christian, that there were times where I wondered, huh, the universe is a pretty big place and we can't possibly have seen it all. So what if it could be something? And then I've had to wrestle, from that standpoint, with scripture. You know what I'm saying and admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time on this. But the reason we're talking about is because increasingly, a lot of people are, and I think one of the avenues we pursue is the cosmos, as you have said. So that's one thing I'm thinking.

Speaker 2:

Then, another thing I'm thinking is how great the technology is that introduces us to conversations that just weren't being had 300 years ago. Right, like, like the ancient could not have possibly thought beyond. You know are to the extent that we think, with the way in which movies have told their stories about alien life and artificial intelligence and all those sorts of things. So we're in a real difficult moment where, for those who are either uniquely interested in this stuff or, you know, curious about this stuff, or are disenchanted by the current moment. Right, something else who? You know how many of us have gone down a TikTok trap or a Snapchat trap or an Instagram trap where you know we got communities of flat earthers now right, and entire volumes of videos espousing to that what they say is a fact.

Speaker 2:

It's not a fact but anyways like you know, but it feels so real and in the absence of something that's more earthy and grounding us man, you can kind of get on some rabbit trails. You know what I'm saying, so you know. That's where my mind is, my thoughts, and you know, I don't know where you want to take it, cj, but my thoughts are on alien life. Here are my thoughts, and I'm not an authority on this. And I'm not an authority on this, but my thought is man. I think if there is a, I don't think there is any life outside earth, I just don't think there is. And my second thought is if there is, if there is, let's say there is I don't think that those are sentient beings. In other words, I don't believe that God has image bearers on other planets.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

So maybe he has a blue dog that flies and bites you like a mosquito Right On, you know, on centaur dash five, 15 B, right, so sure, okay, god is a creator, and I get what people say he's the creator and you know. So maybe he's a. I don't believe God has created a sentient being outside of his creation, cause if I go there then man, god's word starts to get a little untrustworthy and that's just. That's just too far for me, so I don't go there. Uh, thirdly, if there is sentient beings.

Speaker 2:

Uh, thirdly, if there is sentient beings I don't think there are, but if there were out there that can fly and can find sauces and all this kind of stuff, um, and people say that, but what about this sighting and what about this that happened in this cornfield and all that kind of stuff, well, why would? Why would somebody that advanced want to come see us? It's true, so, like, if you get boring, like if you could travel at light speed across light years of distance, yeah, yeah, why do you want to come see what's going on with the Raiders, like, like, yeah, hovering over the stadium, hey, we can fly across the galaxy, let's go see what Mr Beast is doing on Earth. That's a good point. Those are all my thoughts, oh man.

Speaker 1:

Well, no, you said I mean so, you said, said it so well, like we're in a. We're in a really unique time and position with technology and then also. Yeah, where we're at with as far as access to information and things like that, and you know, these thoughts have been around forever to some degree, but you know, in the 17th century moved from a geocentric to a heliocentric model, which brought about and break down what that means for our list oh so I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:

yeah, the geocentric, from earth, the earth being the center of everything. That's right. So there's actually like, with the sun being the center of everything, that there's a space out there, because you could only know what you could see right during that time for most of history. That's right. So now we have telescopes and all these types of things, we can technologically, we under, through technology, we can see what's out there. So that brought about interest in space and the possibility of the cosmos Right, even extended beyond what we knew Exactly, right. So then the 1950s space race and all the science fiction of Hollywood supercharged it. And now here we are as technology advances. Everything's on the table, right, everything's up for debate. Truth is subjective, everything's kind of come and unraveled, and so it you know. Here's where we are, with some wild ideas, and whether you like it or not, it's where we're at it is and it's not going anywhere.

Speaker 2:

And I think for the believer, my encouragement to us is that there's this, this tendency of Christians, where, when the world becomes more complex, we become more convinced that we need to hide away and wait it out. And especially you know we're going to talk about eschatology and Jesus coming back here in just a minute, right, and we know that. We know we have a future and a hope. We know that. And as the world gets darker and crazier and zanier and scarier and more technological, our pension is to just close up our walls and hide out in the basement until the Trump blows. But I just want to encourage us to make. Jesus may be coming back tomorrow. He may not come back for a thousand years. So what are you going to do with your life? And I just want to encourage you even if it seems new, it's still. It's still. It's not new to God and God has sovereignly chosen us to be in this moment.

Speaker 2:

Right and so what does it mean for us to be in that moment for Christ and not to run away from these conversations, not to run away from these realities, but to trust that God can and God still will, even if it's crazy and even if we don't understand?

Speaker 1:

it. Well, and to your point like how do we engage in the distribution and the continued advancement of the gospel in a world that's progressively believing these types of things? And so you have to be engaged in it if you want to speak to them about it? You can't just, uh, just, you know, brush it away and say, well, we won't talk about it. So you know, and as ridiculous as it can be sometimes, but I do agree with you. You know, intelligent life beyond our planet is a little theologically problematic as it resides outside of God's creation order and things like that.

Speaker 2:

So I do.

Speaker 1:

I have some hesitation in thinking that. Even if that was the case, I'm like I don't know what, the what the point. I'll just ask God in heaven one day, you know, or um, on the other side, and say you know what was with all the flying things that we didn't understand.

Speaker 2:

You know, I'll wait for an explanation. Sure, sure, sure.

Speaker 1:

But with that too, like we were talking about the technology right AI we can't forget about that.

Speaker 2:

That about that. That's really, I think, that AI conversations seem to actually be eclipsing now traditional conversations about UFOs and extraterrestrial. I think that's well said. Yeah, yeah, we had a couple of, you know, so every. I think I think standard across the board for the federal government is that for a lot of classified, you know subject matter that the government holds from us for the sake of national security, Now there's some things they never let us know right, but there's other things that after a period of 50 years actually, that they declassify things, Well it's what the old guys put in to say no one can know about this till we're dead.

Speaker 2:

So that's codified in the law, right, and so there was a couple of cases and moments over the last couple of years where there had to be these congressional hearings.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And so people spoke up and said, hey, this is what I saw. I saw this flying saucer, I saw this, and so what ends up now? These things can all be explained away, yeah, right. And so, like, yeah, what you saw was actually the stealth bomber for lack of a better word back in 1958. Yeah, when we had invented it but didn't tell the world. You know what I'm saying. So they can always be explained by something. But there's phenomena for people that are seeing things, and so that's just just. There's the reasons that this has been kind of back into the streams of culture. And then, with social media, I could just make a video right now saying a lie and people will believe it.

Speaker 1:

So that's a whole nother thing Exactly, so we're battling on all those fronts.

Speaker 2:

Yes, but I think you're so wise I mean, you can't go anywhere without hearing about AI. It's actually well, you know, we're using it now, right, and it's just a part. They haven't figured out how to monetize it or how to monetize it sustainably, which is why I actually argue, cj, that it's never going to become a big deal and we'll talk about that in a minute Because of monetizing. Because of monetizing, I think it has initial profitability, not sustainable profitability.

Speaker 1:

Interesting, yeah, that's my thought.

Speaker 2:

I don't know anything about this stuff, but at the end of the day, man, I think it takes out so many workers. No-transcript.

Speaker 1:

Well, I've just dabbled in that a little bit, and that was the same thing I kind of went down a rabbit hole with it and I don't claim to know too much, but um you know we're talking about. You know the idea of integrated intelligence, the power and peril. You know. You see Elon Musk talk about it and some other you know very smart people of AI, uh, quantum AI and the computing and the potential of what that could be, and it's funny for there's so much speculation.

Speaker 1:

obviously, right here, nothing a lot of it's not knowable at this time, nor do we have, nor are we there with the technology yet, but the discussion's going around about how they're harvesting power to you know, do these things the potential of what it could do? And really it's just basically a supercomputer, a quantum AI we talk about. That is taking artificial intelligence and then quantum computing, which is kind of a quantum physics technology type of thing. From what?

Speaker 1:

I understand, and it's supercharging it in such a way that it's like a massive supercomputer that can do calculations so fast that it almost seems like it's thinking that it's thinking. And so they're coming up with where they're able to. They're even talking about things where it's it's quantum physics, and they're able to do things with technology where they're able to. What is it called Teleportation and things like that? Sure, we could transmit things across. Seemingly nothing, sure. And so what does that mean?

Speaker 2:

Sure, absolutely. And there's there's some people. What the crap are you guys talking about? And, admittedly, we are nerding out today. We've been wanting to do this forever. Yeah, yeah, but for the person, let's do AI for dummies, yeah, yeah, right. And so like quantum computing coupled with artificial intelligence.

Speaker 2:

I think is how you set that up. Well, there are some who are listening who are saying why don't they just turn that off and stop doing that? Yeah, because there's so many bad things can happen. And here's why you don't get to stop technology. We always want a faster horse. Yeah, that's why we can't stop it. You couldn't, and you know, in every iteration of technological advancement, the culture has said no, we won't have jobs. And the reason why that never worked is because everybody wants a faster horse. And so, just to look at industrialization, we did that when the locomotive started, we did that when the car started, we did that when the light bulb came, we did that when the phone came, we did it when the record player came. And so you just can't stop something that makes life better and easier. It's just unstoppable, which is why we can't stop this thing. You know what I mean, coupled with CJ.

Speaker 2:

You know some of the videos I watch say that quantum computing. So think of quantum computing and AI as the ability for a computer to perform research or to perform virtual experimentation. Let's just use a medical genre. Right, we've got computers out there now that are working on different series of medications for, let's call it this kind of cancer. So right now there are supercomputers that are going through all sorts of combinations of chemicals to treat this kind of cancer, and the point is this and I'm just throwing out numbers there are computers now that are doing experimentations in seconds that take a human team 20 years and $2 billion worth of money, that they're doing it in seconds. If AI is allowed to go, it will cure cancer. It is a matter of time, or we'll figure out how to make it treatable, just like we did with HIV. We can't cure HIV, but you don't die from HIV if you got medicine today, and so that's why you can't stop. It is my point.

Speaker 1:

So anyways, we're going too far. Yeah, I know Well, because, like you said, it'll end up being able to do thousands of those computations in nanoseconds, and so you could just see how much that just advances us. They say in the jumps are astronomical. For how many years in technology advance? So you think about the things that we've come up with, even just like since the iPhone, and what life looks like now in the last 15 years. You can times that they say it's like 40 to 50 year jumps potentially.

Speaker 2:

So kind of interesting to think about.

Speaker 1:

But I and we chased this rabbit pretty far, Anyway, I guess, yeah, well, let's jump on it. As much as we always want this podcast to be fun and you know kind of pontificate and do those things, we always want it to be equally helpful. So let's start by jumping in now and defining some terms that I think the doctrines of eschatology and soteriology might be a good start, and you know what do they mean and why should we care about those things?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So we care about them, because the Bible speaks about these things a lot, and you hear preachers use the word eschatology and you hear preachers use the word soteriology, right. So eschatology, eschaton or eschatos, means last, last things. Ology means the study, so it's the study of last things. Ology means the study, so it's the study of last things. So when we're talking about Christ returning, we're talking about what's happening in the future. When we talk about prophecy, we're talking about eschatology. Soteriology comes from the word soter, the verb soter, the noun soter, which is the idea of salvation, so it's the study of salvation, how God goes about redeeming mankind who has fallen in their sin, and so it's incumbent upon us to just kind of bear witness when we talk about these things, to talk about Bible things, and Bible things is how God is loving people and saving people, and what God is ultimately going to do to love people and save people for all eternity. Thereby we talk about eschatology and soteriology.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely yeah. The person and work of Christ are both eschatological and salvific events, so they're kind of, you know, intrinsically connected. And I think too important was ground rules even on this is always making sure that you know there's unity in the midst of diversity across some of these thoughts and conversations we're going to get into today. So they're like we've said before there are numerous great men of God who hold different views on this than us, and end times are important but not essentials for a salvation as we talk about them. So I think that's important to lay some of that.

Speaker 2:

I think that's right. We are firm in the essentials and charitable in the non-essentials, and the essential is that he coming. The non-essential is that we just don't know when you know, and so I like how the old preachers used to put the return of Jesus Christ when it comes to me and you, you and I are not on the programming committee, we're on the welcoming committee. So just old school, right, and it's okay to have a pinch. You know a sense of scripture and interpretation as to the wind and what it looks like, and it's all there. But even in his wisdom the Holy Spirit has inspired man. There are very, very credible expressions of all sorts of views of how Jesus is going to come back and when Jesus is going to come back. That can all be rooted in scripture, which I think in his wisdom the Holy Spirit has inspired somewhat of a spectrum, a reality whereby humankind doesn't get to look at scripture with a hundred percent clarity and say, oh, this is exactly how it's going to happen but a hundred percent hope.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so anyways, yeah, no, that's great.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think, uh well, and most of it, we it. We say mostly we all agree on what happened at the beginning and what happens at the end.

Speaker 2:

We just agree on disagree on how we get there Right. That's correct.

Speaker 1:

And so, and a lot of this, why we're talking about it too. This impacts. It does impact the way that the lens through which we see scripture and how we read scripture, and it also sets the course for how we live out our faith, or we don't. So there is important pieces in there as to the importance of having a conversation about these things, and so what would you say are some frequent questions and commonly held views by most Christians.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yeah. So just big picture, folks, you know. So the first view and this is not in no particular order yeah, and we're talking about the return of Jesus Christ and what that looks like and how that will come about. So there's a view that's called amillennialism. Amillennialism, which means basically the Latin prefix, is against, against the millenniums. These are people who believe that when scripture speaks of the millennium okay, which is in a thousand year moment that revelation 20 speaks of, I'm a, I'm a millennialist, I'm a millennialist.

Speaker 2:

Say that this millennium that John talks about in revelation is actually happening now that we are in the church age age waiting for the imminent return of Jesus, where he consumed or brings consummation to the kingdom of God at any given moment. Right, they would say that there's no future earthly reign of Christ, which is kind of in contrast with the premillennialist. We'll talk about that in a second. Rather, the millennium represents Christ's spiritual reign over the church, and then the second coming happens, where Jesus bring the final judgment and press play on all eternity the new heaven and new earth. Where do you sit with our millennialism?

Speaker 1:

I, I, I, I like sitting, I like, I like, I like all millennialism. It's a I'm an amillennial, don't tell anybody, but I think I'm.

Speaker 2:

If I have to choose.

Speaker 1:

I like that you whispered that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm right there with you.

Speaker 2:

Then there's postmillennialists, who believe that Christ will return after this golden age. That scripture speaks of the millennium where the gospel just spreads wildly like crazy. It leads to this era of Christian peace and prosperity, of Christian peace and prosperity, basically, they say, the governmental ethos that Jesus talked about in the Sermon on the Mount. Blessed are the poor and all these things and loving one another. That's how life will be lived. This period of righteousness will culminate in Christ's return, followed by the final judgment and the eternal state. So basically, post-millennials believe that after this golden age there will be a golden age on the church where, basically, we've figured out utopia.

Speaker 1:

Peace and all those things. Then Jesus comes to press play on eternity.

Speaker 2:

And then finally, there's a couple of other kind of nuances of this, but I think we'll just camp in these three. It's the premillennialists, which is what I'm born and raised in. They believe Christ is going to return before the millennium to establish a literal thousand-year reign on earth, of which there are two main types, and that is historic premillennialism, where Christ returns before the millennium, which is viewed as a literal thousand-year reign on earth, and believers will go through the tribulation, and after the millennium there'll be a final judgment and new creation. And then dispensational premillennialism and they're still here, by the way, can I get a Southern Baptist? And this view holds that Christ's return happens in two stages First a rapture, where this is 1 Thessalonians 4, I believe where believers are taken to heaven before a seven-year tribulation. So this is the left-behind books, right Followed by Christ's return to establish a literal thousand-year reign on earth. And that's why they kind of emphasize this idea of dispensations, their ages to this, this epics that just move the, the salvific history of Ford.

Speaker 1:

So anyways, hopefully, that's clear as mud. Yeah, I know and we know that that's a ton of information. Guys, and we, what would you say, ricky, like in circling back around on why we're talking about, like, uh, why people think that this is so important? What do you think it is that drives us to? You know, um, you know, I'll tell you what I think Christians want to know why, and uh understand the why, and we, uh, we just want to know when and where and how.

Speaker 2:

Sure, Well, in culture, the human heart right. When the temperature is up, the time piece is out Right. So that's just the human disposition. And since the pandemic in the West we have all been in a moment of increasing turbulence.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We're just feeling different about life's events these days. Right. So, man, global pandemic, things shut down, costco shelves are empty, gas prices go up. You know, it's just crazy. And then now we're so politically divided where it seems like we're extremists and there's no more people that are in the middle with common sense. But you almost have to be the most extreme expression of conservatism or the most extreme expression of liberalism where the studies show us, as 90% of Americans are somewhere in between. Right, and so there's that economy. Right, it's global now, which means what happens in Thailand affects me, and it just didn't 50 years ago. And we've got entire two generations now, the millennials and the Zs, who have not seen economic prosperity ever. So the millennial and the Z has never, ever had the good life their parents have. But the Z and the millennial do not believe that they're going to fare as well as their parents did a generation ago, Because institutionally, history has shown them that they're they're going to fail them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Whether that's academia, whether that's religion, even whether that's government, they've never seen success from institutions, and so they don't even have the hope. And so my point is that makes a very hard time to be alive, yeah, and when it's hard to be alive today, the heart wants to make sure that it's going to be alive today. The heart wants to make sure that it's going to be good tomorrow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what lies ahead for me Exactly?

Speaker 2:

Which is well, let me check out these aliens.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, maybe they got a good plan.

Speaker 2:

Maybe a supercomputer can figure this out. Maybe the raptor's coming tomorrow. Maybe the raptor's coming tomorrow, exactly, that's exactly it, and this is true of history since the garden. That's just true of history, for for, since the garden, that's how we would show up when the temperature is up. The time piece is out.

Speaker 1:

One as we, and so, moving from that as we think about that, ultimately we think about uh, it brings into thoughts of you know, what are we here for existence purpose, and where do we? What happens when we die? Where do we go?

Speaker 2:

Is there something in?

Speaker 1:

the afterlife. What does that look like? And so you know, touch a little bit on talk. That brings us to conversations and thoughts of heaven and hell concepts.

Speaker 2:

Right, sure absolutely yeah, yeah. Well, again, I think, inherent in the weaving of the soul, I think there. Admit that I've got to believe that there's something after this, because even the atheist says, on my best day, my theology which is a lack of theology at all says that it makes no sense to do what's good, good Like, if you're truly atheist and you don't believe that there's a God out there and you get to do what you want because this doesn't matter. And after this we're all just vaporized. Well, why are you following the law, yeah, and why are you hold any moral? Exactly so deep down? Even the atheist has to admit that there's something good out there and there's something bad out there. And how do I understand so?

Speaker 2:

so, saying all that to say I want to say to us as Christian people that the spirit of the living God has remed enough, and when we're isolated enough to actually contemplate these existential things that are beyond ourselves, like what is going on in the world and what does that mean for the future, and what happens when I die, here comes the good news for God, so love the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever would believe in him would not perish but they would have everlasting life.

Speaker 2:

And so we believe then, that because God loved us, that he came to purchase our redemption on the cross, to rescue us from an eternity in a bad place, an eternity without God. We understand that to be hell, and he has set up a realm as a reward for all of us to fellowship with God for all eternity. Call heaven. So what else would you say to that, and what else do you think our people need to hear?

Speaker 1:

Oh man, yeah, there's so much in that and it's so important, I think, to talk about these because they will set up, like we said before, how you live out your life and how you express your faith, and so these concepts they don't need to be foreign to a lot of people, but I know that we will jump in a future podcast into more detail, a whole thing on hell, yeah, and you know we'll, we'll do what you wanted to do before that heaven, hell be like.

Speaker 1:

You know we'll do something like that with it. Um, but yeah, I think, like a lot of people are just wrestling, you know, I'm I'm always like checking and seeing the kind of the pulse of culture and where we're at and what are people talking about? Um and uh, you know, like, is hell the hell debate? You know, is it a holding place until final judgment, like a fire? You know, I want to know. Is it eternal conscious torment or do the lights just go out as an annihilationism? You know, is it a? And so some of my atheist friends and I have a burden for this because, like you know, these are conversations I have often and they say, hey, I'm just worm food after I died, let's go out and I'm done and this is all we've got.

Speaker 1:

And so to your point, I said man, why, why would you live If?

Speaker 2:

this is all you've got, man. Why are?

Speaker 1:

you getting that? Go, get, go, get yours every day. You know whatever that takes and whatever that requires, I'm like no, no, I want to be faithful. Can't reconcile that you know, and so I'm like man, so even more. That drives my faith to say man, there must be a God. It must be true. And there's there was something before, and there's something now, and there's something after, and God has a plan for it all those who struggle with the idea of an eternal place of damnation, right?

Speaker 2:

Um, I would preclude, logically speaking, that, um, if there is a God, there has to be a hell. And first of all, jesus said I don't know how many times when he talked of hell, that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, hinting not hinting, but really saying that there is a place where people will be, you know, without God's love, you know, and separated from him eternally. But my point is in saying, if there is a God, there must be a hell. Is that for God to be who he says he is, that means he is holy, perfect, and that his love then is perfect. So, when God decided that he wanted to create us and love us, that love, then, cj, is perfect love. This is what I mean by that, cj. If I make you love me, that's not real love. If I force you to love me, that's not real love. If I force you to love me, that's not real love. The only way, CJ, I could love you and enter into a real relationship with you is to give you the privilege to not love me back. Yeah, wow, the only way that is going to be real love is to give you the choice to accept it or deny it. Yeah, period, point blank.

Speaker 2:

And so I always use this to talk about my kids. I love my kids, I die for my kids, I do anything for my kids, but I don't go around saying, cam, you have to love me. I don't say, cam, love me or else, because if I do, guess what? I'm going to get A robot's love. It'll never be real. But because I want to do so, CJ, you get to love me or not love me. Now I know what you're going to do and I know what your kids are going to do. You're going to choose not to love me, and that feels like it's unfair. But guess what, just in case, I'll send my son to die for you, that I'll always provide provision for you to love me anyway.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, and every opportunity to love me, every oh man and I. And it's so true. It's such a hard thing to get your mind around sometimes but that too he wouldn't, he wouldn't be. Just I would say, that's exactly right, right, that's exactly right. Because then he's like well, you know what? Hey, I love you so much, I gave you a choice.

Speaker 2:

I want you to choose me.

Speaker 1:

But if you don't choose me, then you choose to be away from me, and I will give you that.

Speaker 2:

That's exactly right, which is why the cross is the great authenticator of God.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah Of God, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right yeah.

Speaker 2:

Where, and I love what you said that he is a God of justice, so you get to do what you want, and but I love you. But just in case, right, just in case there's still it still doesn't feel right, yeah Well, we look to the cross and say if you don't think this, god loves you. Yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

So, anyways, oh man, and on the other side of that, when we talk about heaven, we won't jump too much into it today because we want to save all the fun.

Speaker 2:

Firmament, the whole show on heaven folks.

Speaker 1:

We're going to have a whole show on that Jewish cosmology. We'll jump on all the fun stuff. I can't wait, but it's really to be present with God, to know and to be known.

Speaker 2:

Right Amen.

Speaker 1:

In known right, In a place eternally spent with your heavenly father who knows you, man, and I think about that day, just to stand before him and to worship him and to know, to know him in a way that I can't. That, um is beyond even what I know now. You know what I mean In a presence, and so it's just such a sweet thing for me to think about and that's kind of the North star of my life is I get to know him and I say, man, can I live in such a way now that that's just closer and closer and closer, almost that if I was to you know and I'm stepping over a little bit here that I step into heaven, and I'm not surprised. It's just, oh, it's just the culmination of the things I've hoped in, Right?

Speaker 2:

I was walking this yesterday morning and there's a Christian rapper who I love. I know him. His name is Ty Brazel. Ty's a country white boy from North Mississippi and got rocked by the gospel. He's recorded a few albums Now. He's actually pretty good. Check them out. Ty sings a song called greatness we just talked about trying to be great for the Lord and it ministers to me. And I'm walking around my neighborhood you know, it's not even sun hadn't come up yet and and CJ walked around my neighborhood, I put my hands up in the air and I said out loud I love you, my God, and one day we, you and me, will be able to say that to his face every day, forever.

Speaker 2:

And ever and he'll be right there and I'll be able to hear his voice yeah, and he'll be I love, I'll be able to hear his voice. Yeah, and he'll be. I love you too, ricky. Yeah, forever and ever and ever, with billions of bros and sisters.

Speaker 1:

What a sweet time.

Speaker 2:

What a time it will be For all time Amen. Amen.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's, let's wrap up a little bit with some final takeaways and thoughts on this conversation. You know Well, let's wrap up a little bit with some final takeaways and thoughts on this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Kind of tie a bow on it.

Speaker 1:

Maybe do some things here in this space, just whatever you're feeling.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the main thing I would want our listeners to hear is that the world is a crazy place. It has always been crazy, it always will be crazy, and this is why the gospel is good news. And so I think, in many ways, god is kind to allow times to become turbulent so that our hearts may run back to him, because sometimes you'll try to establish heaven in a place where it was never intended to be. In this current moment, and I think turbulent times help us to reimagine heaven where God intends it to be. On the other side of this, and that's good news, I would encourage us to hold a high view of why and what Jesus has done to save us and have a low view of the place where those who don't know Jesus will end up. What would you add to that, cj?

Speaker 1:

Oh man, I wrote hold a long view of eternity and fellowship with Christ. That's the hope that we have is in Christ, like you said, that we don't set it up here, whether we're fearful or angry or anything. Hold onto the hope that we have in the fellowship with Christ and then hold a short view of our time here on earth in order to participate in God's redemptive work that he has for us right now. That should drive us to urgency. I love that, because there's people around us that need Jesus and so um yeah, yeah, I think it.

Speaker 2:

It. Maybe we can give everybody an opportunity who's listening now to accept the Lord as their savior? My grandfather preached all the time, and sometimes when I would be in service, cj. Well, let me just tell this story, then I'll give us an invitation. How about that? He was preaching for me in Oakland and had come in and granddaddy would have had to be in 75 or so. So he's getting ready to retire and he's preaching. It was black church, right, so we were hollering and having a good old time and he in the black church we call it he put him on the cross and took him off. So you have to close with you know they buried. I'm doing that Sunday and almost lost it Recording that message this morning. But he's just giving God glory that he died for our sins, not a soul in the church on their seats.

Speaker 2:

Everyone's standing up, crying, praising Jesus. And before he sat down, he looked at me and he was hooping and hollering. He said, ricky, the old man's getting out of here, but I charge you to preach the word, be instant and season. And you know, and I'm just crying my eyes out and the old man closed this book and sat down and we just praise God for five minutes. Well, I want to say to our listeners that we're all old men and old women and we're getting out of here.

Speaker 2:

Be very sure, your anchor holes and grips the solid rock. And so if you don't know Jesus and the partner you're seeing, even on a podcast, I want to encourage you that he loves you, he died for you, he rose again for you and, regardless of what's going to happen with AI and alien and war and rumors of wars and all the stuff that's happened around you, god saw all of that and said I'll put my son on the cross so that they can look to him and have hope and redemption. So if you don't know Jesus, I want to encourage you to just say these words Jesus, thank you for what you've done for me. I confess that I've missed the mark.

Speaker 2:

But, lord, I put my faith in what you've accomplished for me on the cross and in the resurrection. And, lord, I embrace now what you have done for me as justification for my sins. Reconcile me now to you, lord and Jesus. Come into my heart and save me and make me yours. That, come what may, on the other side of this, I'll be with you forever and ever and ever. Amen. And if you pray that prayer, I want to welcome you to the kingdom. Amen, cj. Close us out with some details and some good old stuff.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely my pleasure. Well, yeah, we always want to give you guys some helpful information and resources. The show notes will be filled with all kinds of different stuff from Logos, what is eschatology? We'll have Bible project fun stuff If you want to jump into heaven. Zombies, dragons in the Bible all kinds of fun stuff. Their Bible project has some really good things for you, Dinosaurs are in the Bible. Dinosaurs, that's another show for later.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we'll do that one later too. We got a couple coming down the road for you. We do, we do. We got the Gospel Coalition, of course, with all kinds of views on the millennium and then future ones about heaven and hell. We'd love to get your questions, comments and feedback here, as always, leave a comment on YouTube or, if you're just listening, email us at the other six days at Southwest Church dot com. That's the number six, and so any last comments or final thoughts before we wrap it up, ricky.

Speaker 2:

Jesus is coming. Thank you that he is Amen.

Speaker 1:

Well, there you have it, guys. Thanks again for joining us on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share and like and spread the word and, as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something that you can do to further the gospel and the world around you.

Speaker 2:

Until next time Peace.