The Other 6 Days
As the church, we spend most of our thought, time and effort working towards our weekend gatherings; with the majority of our lives being lived outside of Sundays. The Other 6 Days Podcast is designed to help us be more intentional about the ways we can "show up" for the gospel the other 6 days of the week.
The Other 6 Days
Cultivating A Global Sound | The Other 6 Days | Episode 49
In this episode, we get to know the Southwest Worship Pastor, Kanjii Mbugua. He shares some of his story, his journey & experience & God's calling on his life that landed him as the worship pastor at Southwest Church in Indian Wells, California. We begin with a unique discussion on what it means to cultivate a "multiethnic soundtrack" or a "global worship sound" including some of the hurdles & opportunities surrounding the topic. We wrap up the podcast with some ways to shape a more broad & healthier worship expression the other six days of the week.
SHOW NOTES & RESOURCES:
- Building a Healthy Multi-Ethnic Church: Mandate, Commitments, and Practices of a Diverse Congregation by Mark DeYmaz (Daymaz)- (https://a.co/d/0JGV9Ag)
- From Every People and Nation: A Biblical Theology of Race (New Studies in Biblical Theology Book by J. Daniel Hays (https://a.co/d/8CbVRjk)
- AW Tozer The Purpose of Man: Designed to Worship - https://a.co/d/8mCZZ9e
- Multiethnic Spotify Playlist - Explore what's out there! Build a Spotify playlist of multiethnic or intercultural Christian artists and explore various expressions of global praise!
- The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence (https://a.co/d/3rVkTQq)
For more information or to join the conversation, head over to https://southwestchurch.com/theother6days or email us at theother6days@southwestchurch.com
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Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings, and not just for them. I'm your host, cj McFadden, and I'm here today with our very own worship pastor, kanji Mbugwa, and we're here to chat about worship, but specifically in reference to what it means when we say cultivating a global worship sound or a multi-ethnic soundtrack. Pastor Kanji hails originally from Nairobi, kenya, on the continent of Africa. He's an accomplished musician, a father, a husband, pastor, songwriter, director and creative with an extensive background in both Christian worship and the global music industry. He's married to the even more amazing and talented Wendy Mbugwa and father, proud father, to their two children, selah and Banga. Kanji, welcome and thanks for joining us today. Thank you, thank you my guy so good.
Speaker 1:It's been a long time coming, huh.
Speaker 2:I've been watching you guys. I'm like man, when are they going to? Yeah, yeah. So I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Awesome, thanks, yeah, awesome. So well, before we jump into our conversations around worship, we got a good episode here for everybody. We always like to kick things off with something a little bit more light, and so what do you say if we play? We test your skills with a quick game of love song or worship song.
Speaker 2:Okay, I know I'm going to fail, but let's go.
Speaker 1:Let's do it All right, okay. First one I have faith in what I see. Now I know I've met an angel in person.
Speaker 2:Love song. Okay, do you happen to know who that?
Speaker 1:might be. You were right. You nailed it, ed Sheeran, that's good. Okay, yeah, I start off easy. Angel giving Okay. Okay, I want to know what it was. Yeah, about it. That Okay. They say sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some.
Speaker 2:That's. It could be a worship song. It's there and you never know.
Speaker 1:Yeah but it's a love song. No, it's a worship song. Yeah, yeah, it's Even F by Mercy Me. All right, you're here. There's nothing I fear, and I know that my heart will go on. You got to know this Love song. Yes, you got it, it's a love song. Yeah, who was it? Fam famous female singer, french-canadian, I think. Oh, okay, okay, celine Dion, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Titanic, yeah, all right, step out on a busy street, see a girl in her eyes, meet does her best to smile at me, to hide what's underneath.
Speaker 2:I'm messing with you, you're trying to play with me now. So that could be a Maverick City song. You know, if it was pre-Maverick City it's definitely a love song. Yeah, uh, forced Maverick City. It could be either, but I'm going to go with love song.
Speaker 1:It's a worship song Give Me your Eyes. By Brandon Heath. Oh man, that was good. I was like oh, he's going to get this one, I know it. Okay, um, next one. And I realized just how beautiful you are and how great your affections are for me.
Speaker 2:That's a worship song.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got it. Yeah, jesus, culture, you hold me close in the darkest night. Woo Woo.
Speaker 2:That could be. That could be both. That could be. I'd say it's a worship song, but I'm certain someone has used those lyrics in a love song.
Speaker 1:You. Actually you're technically right, it's both. Yeah, so it's a Lauren Daigle rescue worship song and then also John Legend, all of Me. So you're actually good, though that was good and that was like that's a tougher one. All right, you're still the one I run to, the one that I belong to. That's a love song.
Speaker 2:That's Robota Flack or Shania Twain.
Speaker 1:Shania Twain, dude, that was good, nice, well done. I was wondering if you'd know that one. You're my end and my beginning, even when I lose, I'm winning.
Speaker 2:That's a worship song. No, that's a love song. Okay, yeah, it's a love song, for sure, but it could be a worship song, but it's definitely a love song. It's a love song.
Speaker 1:All of me, John Legend.
Speaker 2:John Legend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and that's good. You make me better just by being here.
Speaker 2:But just think about it, bro, like that, that lyric, right, the John Legend lyric? Yeah, like it's. So that could have been a worship song.
Speaker 1:You're my end and my beginning. Even when I lose, I'm winning.
Speaker 2:Alpha Omega.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, yeah, you're totally right, you make me better just by being near Love song. Love song, yeah, neo, you make me better. Okay, hold me close let your love surround me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it could be a love song.
Speaker 1:Hillsong, Power of your Love. Yeah, you know that there's no mountain I wouldn't climb for you. That's a little twist on it.
Speaker 2:There's no mountain I wouldn't climb for you. Yeah, I'd say it's a love song. I'd say it's a love song. I'd say it's a love song. But I can see how someone could have tried to make that a worship song. But I'd say love song.
Speaker 1:It could be both. It's based on based on Reckless Love was a trick question, but Bruno Mars Grenade Got it. But so you're right. Yes, you got it right. Okay, okay, hey, you're doing. I'm going to try to pronounce this. This is just a fun one. We got two left, so you got to correct me Siku, zote, netaku, embia. All my days I will sing to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's definitely.
Speaker 1:Worship song. You know that one right, it's a. What is it Classic Swahili like worship yeah.
Speaker 2:Classic.
Speaker 1:Classic. I know I botched that, but I had to try one and this one. You have to get this one. We want to burn for you, Give her all to you.
Speaker 2:Worship song All the way.
Speaker 1:Set us on fire by Kanji Mbugwa. That was fun. Thanks for playing. That was pretty fun.
Speaker 2:That was cool. I enjoyed that, yeah, so now.
Speaker 1:Now for the actual podcast. Tell us a little bit about your journey becoming a worship pastor here at Southwest. What does that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. So it's been four years being a worship pastor here at Southwest and four incredible, amazing, really fruitful years. The journey that gets me here is, you know it's an unlikely one, but I guess all our journeys are unlikely, like God. God just takes you through. You know what's it that Pastor Ricky says If you want to see God. You know laugh, you know, tell him your plans. That's exactly it. So I think for me that's definitely been a big part of my story, and so I've got an interesting birth story that is so connected to my life. And so you know, when my mom was pregnant with me, she went for like an all-night prayer meeting and at that prayer meeting one of the guys who was there, you know, prophesied and told her hey, you're pregnant with a son and he gave him my name. So my parents didn't name me, that prophet named me yeah, dude, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I'd never heard that. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:So my parents didn't name me. But that's like okay, cool, I guess that's his name, okay. But then he said and he'll do the Lord's work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, growing up as a child, I thought, okay, I'm going to be a preacher, this thing has been written, and my parents would tell me this story intermittently, but obviously marked me and marked my worldview. That, okay, cool, I guess I'm going to be a preacher. It wasn't until maybe my first year in high school when, um, I had, uh, this guy who ended up becoming one of my pastors, um, god and and and how God gifts us for very specific ministry, and at that point I was like it's undeniable, my gift is music and. And at that point I was like, oh, okay, I'm not meant to be a preacher, I'm meant to be a musician.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and that kind of set my path. So so, from my first year in high school, I kind of embraced the musical journey. I didn't know where it was going to take me At that point you know, this is in the 90s no one is going to study music, there are no professional musicians. I don't know any professional musicians. So it was like, okay, cool, how exactly are we going to do that? And, and you know, god just kind of orchestrated my, my journey, um, you know, meeting people who inspired me, who mentored me, who showed me, hey, you know, this is something that you can actually do. I met professional musicians and I was like, wait, you get paid to do this. I'm like, how sign me up? What do I sign? Um, and and so kind of of like that's the journey.
Speaker 2:You know, obviously many pit stops along the way and the Lord, you know, taking me through music school. And later on, you know, we started a boy band with some of my best friends and we're doing kind of like I guess Christian pop yeah Is how you'd call it and touring and all of that and um, you know, but church was kind of like, you know, I'd look at church music and I'd always be like, you know, people would ask me hey, you know, come sing on our worship team, and I'd be like, nah, like I, just it, just it felt cheesy. Yeah, well, put together, I was just like, nah, nah, I think I'm good, I think I'm uh, there's room for all types of musicians. I'm the musician who goes outside of the gym, yeah, I thought I'd tell me, yeah, that's right, and I had a whole ministry that was very um, uh, you know, we, we called it more pre evangelistic. Yeah, our gigs, yeah, so, so, so that that that kind of like was my upbringing. Um, so started leading worship, um, at Mavuno church and the pastor M who you guys had here, and and, um, you know, eventually, the Lord, um, it was.
Speaker 2:It was such a crazy thing seeing how we transitioned from being in Kenya to being in the states, because that again was a God thing. It wasn't in my plan. I was, you know, very happy with my life in Kenya and the stuff that I was doing. And, um, the Lord, through another pastor, uh, kenton, be sure Um, um, kind of challenged me and and, and, uh, that's kind of like when I met ricky around that time and, and the whole thing was like hey, um, I think there's something you need to think and pray about, um, and my initial answer was like no, I'm not, I'm not there, I'm not, I'm happy coming on tour, I'm happy coming for, you know, for a couple of weeks, and then I got a good gig, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then going back home, you know, um, but it wasn't meant to be like the lord spoke as loudly as I've ever had him speak to my wife, to myself, to our two kids, literally wow, and you know, we made the decision. Okay, I think, I think we're gonna, um, what do they say? Burn the ships, and yeah, and, and and start a new life. Yeah, um, which, which was four years ago, yeah, yeah, man, that's how we ended up here at Southwest. Oh, that's so awesome.
Speaker 1:It was a journey and a half. I know, and I know there's so much more in there, like you said. I mean we don't have enough time to unpack all of it, but I love what you were saying, some of the stuff I've never even heard before and piece. I love that that you were kind of planting seeds of faith with even some of your you know just uh, your your engagement with even secular music, but also your producer. Everything was, you know, god was setting the stage. You could just see his hand in it, all Right, absolutely, and as he was. That's so cool man. Oh gosh, what a cool story. Well, um, so we've talked previously on our podcast about the theology of worship and we've kind of gone over some things there with Ricky. But I would love for you today specifically to share some of your thoughts. You know why you love it and what you believe it has the power to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so well, this is more detailed than maybe you want, but you know, I think, first of all, um, we use the wrong word for worship. Yeah, so for what? When we're talking about in the context of church, yeah, and singing, yeah, it's actually praise, yeah, so, so, so that's actually the right, the right word. But then I think we've used worship in pop culture so long that worship actually means praise, got it? Yeah, so you know, because worship is you know, romans 12, 1, it's present your body as living sacrifices, like this. You know, our worship is actually our lives, it's our lives. That's actually what worship is. But praise, on the other hand, is other hand, is so defined in the Bible, and so I always like to be able to not get too much in the nitty gritty Because, like my dad says, it's not what you say, it's what people hear. So, when you say worship, people hear music. Yeah, and then that's fine.
Speaker 1:They know what you're referencing.
Speaker 2:Exactly so.
Speaker 2:in that vein, then, I think there are just several things that are so interesting for me that God has given us this very mysterious gift of being able to connect with him through songs and being able to connect with him, um, you know, through songs and being able to connect with him, you know, through the playing of instruments, through the um, um, you know, I, I teach this, um, this class, um, it's a discipleship class really, um called, uh, rooted in worship, and uh, we've actually just taken our worship team here at southwest through it and and one of the things we go through is, you know, the hebrew words of praise and how, every time we see praise in the bible, it it could mean one, it could mean several things yeah, right, and. And it could mean playing with instruments, it could mean spontaneous songs, it could mean shouting, it could mean um, uh, extravagant, you know, uh, in fact, I, I love, I love, I love, um, the, the, uh. There's one of the words which is halal, yeah, and that basically means um, well, one of the definitions of it that I really jump on is, uh, being clamorously foolish, clamorously foolish, and I'm like, and I can get up, that's right, yeah, yeah, so, so, so so. But the whole idea of man, number one, the role it plays in building our faith, so praise, I think, is founded in. There are kind of like two ideas behind praise, and even from the dictionary, so you know, one is the whole idea of praise by recommendation, which is kind of like the same idea of writing a recommendation letter. Yeah, like the same idea of writing a recommendation letter. Yeah, where I I go like, hey, I know this guy called cj and, based on my knowledge of him, I want to recommend him for this job. Right, so it's the same thing with god.
Speaker 2:Where, where, where praise is, is the whole idea of recommend recommendation, right, yeah, where you're basically saying, based on what I know about this god, yep, what I've seen him do in my life and my experience, what I've seen him say in his word, what he has done in his word, based on that, I recommend him to myself. Right, that, god, you can do it, you're able, you're powerful, you're mighty, you're a deliverer. So there's that idea. And then there's also praise through glorification, which is, which is the concept of the, the, the, the greatness or the perfection that's found in god, right, um, and that's so that that idea of glorification, so that praise looks like um, yeah, you know, you're beautiful beyond description. Yeah, you know, god, you are the bright and morning star.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you're beautiful beyond description. Yeah, you know God, you are the bright and morning star. Yeah, you know it's this like extra extra words, but then so that's kind of like definitively like what it is. But then here's how I think it has power in a believer's life. Life, um, um, praising God or worshiping God, as as, as I guess, pop culture now has, it, um, I find, is many things, but one of the things that it is is a metaphor, and it's a metaphor for surrender, because if I can be able to praise God with my hands lifted, or praise God singing out loud or praise God, there's a self that I need to shut off. For me to actually engage in this thing, there's something about myself I need to turn off right In terms of okay, man, what do people think about me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's going on in my circumstances, my life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to be able to say God is greater than bundles, yeah, right, and so I feel like that's within the church setting, that's such a beautiful metaphor for your life, right? And I always say in this space where people are cheering, people are all trying to do the same thing um, if I can be able to do it here, then maybe I can be able to do it with my money. Yeah, maybe I can be able to do surrender my you know, wayward child. Maybe I can be able to surrender. So it's like for me, I find, like it's a metaphor In and of itself. It is a powerful thing, but it's also a working metaphor, hopefully, that I can be able to apply in my life outside of the church setting.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, dude, I love that, and it's actually when you say that I think of it too as almost even like a kickstart to that, like within a corporate expression maybe to, like you said, like the export of that is all the other things, yeah, but that's just kind of the start of this, almost the start of surrender, right there it is it literally, is a start of surrender.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and once you understand that. So, dude, we took our worship team through this training and it's kind of walking us through this. It's a surrender journey ultimately, you know, and you know, guys sign up thinking they're going to learn how to be better praise and worship leaders, da, da, da da. But at the end of the day, it's actually a surrender journey and the crux of it is okay, cool, what is unsurrendered in your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love how Ricky and I think I've had someone else say that is Eusebio ant lord, so, lordship, is this idea now of full surrender. So, yeah, clapping your hands, singing a song, regardless of what I feel, the situation I'm in, um what I, how I view myself, how how I think people view me. You know, all of that is I love what you said is the beginning of surrender and and maybe helps you now along that journey.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I honestly think that's it's so helpful. Our people and, dude, that's such a great way to put it. I love your delineation too for praise. I always wrestle, and that's kind of where we unpack the theology, where I always have to unpack worship because of its connotation, like what it actually means. So delineating like in saying, hey, that I actually consider it, that's what it's called praise, so I think that's super helpful. That's what it's called praise, yeah, so I think that's super helpful. Yeah, I also.
Speaker 1:Man, it's so funny. Someone had written down here these are some cool things I thought were really good too, and it's kind of along what you were saying Praise acknowledges God's power, it declares our allegiance, it seeks his divine intervention and celebrates his provision and victory. Yeah, and it's so funny. I did notice I was thinking about it and I've heard this before and I don't know what your thoughts are, but in the Old Testament, specifically in 2 Chronicles, king Jehoshaphat appointed singers and musicians to lead praise and thanksgiving before an army marched out into battle, demonstrating that worship preceded and accompanied even warfare, spiritual warfare, things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, that's what they of God's greatness, but a declaration of God's greatness, then there's almost like a corresponding effect, which is then the sinful life I've lived is not great. God is great. The problems I have today are not great. God is great. You know. It's so, so, so, so, and it's just a beautiful thing that God used Um, I love how God uses the foolish things sometimes, Cause like what are you talking about? This is like singing songs and whatever. Like how could this have such meaning? Yeah, you know, but it does, it does. It's pretty cool how God does it.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so good. Well, in one of our recent episodes just recently, we talked about the value of being a multi-ethnic church and kind of that's where we're going with our conversation today. That I wanted to camp in. But yeah, you have a very unique task that I want to talk about and that you have a very unique task that I want to talk about, and that's as a multi-ethnic church. One of our values for worship is cultivating a multi-ethnic soundtrack, or what we call a global sound. I've heard Ricky say that before.
Speaker 2:So share with us a little bit what we might mean by this. Its purpose, importance, all those things been something to grapple with and think about, and and and strategize um, you know when. Because you know when we talk about um, you know we are multi, our vision of being a, uh, you know a multi church and then now what it means from a you know from, obviously, from our services, from a you know how do we embrace, you know, multi-ethnicity in like our philosophy and all of that. So for music and for worship and praise, what that has meant is like a number one is a consciousness right that you have to work into. It can't be a secondary thought it's.
Speaker 2:I think you've got to work it in until it's part and parcel of your thinking process. So, so, so, because I think on one level is going like okay, cool man, let's make sure we have, you know, songs that are from different cultures. Yeah, right, at a deeper level, it's embracing this, so that it's second nature to us. So when we're choosing a worship set, you know that's already embedded. When you're writing songs, you know you're thinking of the others. When you're, you know, know, putting together the worship teams and who's singing on stage, you know that's a mindset that you have, you know, and that's embedded, it's second nature.
Speaker 2:It's not something you're trying to go like okay, cool man, there were three white girls. Yes, it's not a checkbox, it's a philosophy and a spirit to embrace, right, yeah, um, so, so, so. So we found that to be super important. That, um, yeah, because it can become a checkbox and when it does, then you lose the spirit of what you're trying to do. You know, um, the, the, the conscious awareness of the others, is something that we just have to cultivate in ourselves. And we try to do that as a worship team and, you know, sometimes we get it, sometimes we don't. But you know, we try and cultivate the spirit of it so that we're not trying to just check another box.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no that's good, I know. Ricky always says we'll practice now what Jesus will perfect in heaven. Yeah, and so this idea that we brace, engage in various expressions of praise or worship and allowing us to participate in aspects now of what God intended all along, and so I know it's not there's no quick answer to that to say like, oh, this is the recipe for how you do it. Yeah, oh, this is the recipe for how you do it. It's a you basically, like you said really well, you step into it with an intentionality, right, and then, as we do that, we engage with it. It's almost a feedback of what happens and expression of who we are. And then you know you're almost in the process of becoming that. Yeah, it's not like, well, we'll know when we've arrived. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that arrived, yeah, yeah, well, that'll probably be on the other side exactly, but maybe we will never know. And until we get there, yeah, exactly, yeah, oh, that's cool. I love that one of the thoughts um that I have. Um, so, and, and it's kind of like the idea of how music um helps shape theology, um, and you know, martin Luther the reformer has a quote where he says, first, first the Bible, then the hymnal, like he says, you know, the hymnal is vital in shaping people's theology and you know, when you think about it, you know, songs, songs, it's, it's a mystery, it's a mystery how songs get to the soul of who you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, like how music goes past the mind and gets to your heart and you know so anyway. So I think what Martin Luther was saying is that man, look at the songs that you're writing, yeah Right. That men, um, look at the songs that you're writing, yeah right, and. And so how, how we interpret that, especially when it comes to this multi-ethnic um idea, is they're now saying that, again, what happens on stage is a metaphor. It's important, it's vital, but it's also a metaphor. So we are also trying to say hey, if you see multi-ethnicity on the stage at Southwest, start questioning your Christmas, your Thanksgiving party yeah Right. Yeah, who's at your party? Yeah, right. And how do you embrace the others in your life? Yeah, and what you find is that if everyone has the others, right, Everyone has the others. You know which is the people who are, um, maybe not welcome is too strong of a word, but just are not, are not there, yeah, Right, Like Ricky said often, like don't think like you, act like you, vote like you.
Speaker 1:you know what I mean. Like they're just different. They're different, they're different, they're different.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Like they're just different, they're different, they're different, they're different. And so, and especially in this day and age you know, with all the echo chambers that we have been forced into social media you're only seeing people like you, you're only hearing people who think like you. The algorithm set up Algorithm is feeding you, man. So so you've got to do a really um, there's got to be like a pushback that's very, um, uh, intentional. Yeah, right, um, because everything else is pushing you in in one way.
Speaker 1:That's good, man yeah, man, that's so. Uh, I love, I love we always have. We get into these hallway conversations sometimes or we're out golfing and we, like you know, we get going down like a rabbit hole or talking about this and like, so I've been looking forward to this, uh, you know, trying to kind of flesh some of that out, um, and I knew we'd get there. Um, yeah, I wrote down some thoughts on that too. Actually, I wanted to see what you thought about this thing. I really like what Mark uh, I think it's Demaze says.
Speaker 1:Um, he says the most effective way to spread the gospel in an increasingly diverse world is through strong and vital multi-ethnic churches. Apart from ethnically and economically diverse relationships, we cannot understand others different from ourselves, develop trust with others who are different than us, and or even love others different than us. Apart from understanding, trust and love, we are less likely to get involved in the plight of others different than ourselves. Without involvement, nothing changes and the disparaging consequences of that will remain entrenched in our culture. So he's basically saying that loving others requires being with others. Exactly so you were saying you know the party, the Thanksgiving party, the table, the, whatever it is. You know, that's part of that expression that we're like kind of working towards and saying like in that, in, in um, praise and worship, is just kind of the beginning of that right exactly, and I think for me so, even when you're looking at, say, spaces that are very monoculture, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, I'm sure there's a place in, I don't know, iceland yeah, that you know.
Speaker 1:Say a minnesota, yeah, yeah well.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, everyone looks the same and whatnot, but you've got to be able to embrace the multi-ethnicity because it's a God idea. It's not just a good idea for you as a church, it's a God idea. And Bishop Oscar is one in Kenya who kind of planted the church movement. He didn't kind of. He planted the church movement that we all come from, and maybe 20 years ago I had him say this and it always stuck with me. He talked about how God has gifted the global church with very unique gifts that are only available to the others if we come in relationship, right. So he talks about the abundance and the generosity of the American church, right, the abundance and the generosity of the American church, right. And he says you'll be able to understand this extravagance and this generosity and this you know if you're in relationship with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, if we are, you know, in relationship with the Asian church, that is a prayerful church.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Extremely prayerful church, then we get that benefit and we get to understand prayer. You know, I mean us guys were talking about, say, our 21 days of prayer. We were high-fiving each other and, man, that was amazing, that was great. And I was talking to a friend of mine who went to South Korea and to Yonggi Cho's church, which at the time was the largest church in the world, and he says there's a mountain they call Prayer Mountain where they go and pray, and he says there was a specific place where this prayer that happens 24-7, 365. It doesn't say don't stop praying, wow. Then you're like, oh, wow, yeah, I mean we did better than Mivempa, dan, right, and so for us to truly understand the power of prayer if we're in relationship with them, you know, then, so it's almost like God has revealed himself uniquely through the lens of culture and and unless we actually engage with each other, we get such a narrow lens and a narrow view of who God is. And it's almost like this is why it's important.
Speaker 2:Christian, my best friend talks about how Africa, the African church, has a very unique gift. You know, obviously, we know celebration and you know church is there. You know just the nature of celebrating and all of that. But he said there's a less talked about gift, which is the gift of suffering. And he says, and I was like man, which is a gift of suffering? And he says, and I was like man, you need to bring this down. He's like, yeah, yeah, african church has the gift of suffering. And when I thought about it and I thought about people who I know who have been sent to go and church plant and they're living in a one bedroom house, five of them sleeping on the floor, and are there for three years, and they're able to do that. Comfort is not a thing that they're mentally like, ready or looking for. And he said that's a gift. It is a gift. And so I think there is this beauty that comes about when we open our eyes to the various cultures and the various ethnicities. And so when we embrace multi-ethnicity, what we're saying is we're embracing almost the fullness of God.
Speaker 2:So how do we do that musically? We do that musically, um, you know where, where you look, and you say, um, uh, you know like, and I'll give you, africa is obviously I've got a lot of african example um, where, where I once had a pastor after, after I'd finished singing, an american pastor, uh kind of like, apologized to his, to his congregation, because he was like, uh, you know, I know, I know some of you struggle with songs, uh, repetitive songs, that you know we just repeat the same, yeah, right, yeah. And and I remember thinking I was like oh man, I think you've missed the point, my guy. Um, because in africa, repetition is revelation. That's how you get revelation. I keep on singing God you're good, god you're good, god you're good. But at some point I think you're good yeah, actually you're good, exactly At some point you're good, you're good, yeah At some point, it sinks in.
Speaker 1:It's called rehearsing the truth.
Speaker 2:And it's not just now a cerebral thing, it's my body and body, right so. But you only understand that if you allow yourself to get outside of your bubble, right? So, yeah, so I think the multi-ethnic part of our vision is so critical for us having the richness and the fullness that God created us have to be able to have and so with that too, because, like you know, it's easy when we'll get into this a little bit.
Speaker 1:But, like, when you think, like a multi-ethnic soundtrack or a global sound, then we're singing specific cultures or ethnicities, music or pray, you know, whatever their expression, their localized expression is, yeah, but that's not the heart of it. Like, and you, the way you said it, gosh, that was so masterful man. Like I really just I resonate with that huge is this idea that you know, we're careful not just to educate people by saying like, hey, let's check boxes and do these things and be multi-ethnic, but to appreciate and then participate in these expressions, cause then we actually don't activate and we don't live out. The gifting, like you said, let's say, the American church is generosity. You actually don't get the opportunity to be generous unless you're in relationship with an opportunity to be generous to someone who's not with someone who doesn't have. So do you know what I mean? So if someone's suffering, we have an opportunity to meet those needs. So it's a symbiotic relationship. That is proximity, it is, and then celebrating, and then all that thousand activates. That yeah, and that's what got intended right that's.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what it is it was like a whole idea of togetherness. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Unity, yeah, yeah and togetherness is is powerful. Um, you know so. I love the idea of us. So, even because you ask a question, or you know the soundtrack or the global sound, you know. So, when we're looking at songs, that's the approach, right. Um, um. When we're looking at um, um, you know, how can we learn what god has to give a share with us from contexts that are completely outside of our own? Number one, um. Number two how are we aware of the others in our presence who have to code switch or what? I don't, what, I don't know what of the words that I use now for this? You know, which is like, okay, cool, when I come to you guys, I have to come and become. I mean that, yeah, that's assimilation. I become like you, instead of saying no, just come as you are and you will find yourself here. Yeah, you know so. Yeah, so it's all definitely stuff to grapple with for worship teams. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You nailed it. That's a unique. That expression and the way that you said it reminds me it's a value statement, like so the shared diverse experiences. They show value, honor and appreciation. So if someone shows up different and you know, you're saying, well, this is what makes me feel comfortable and this is what I'm used to. Yeah, getting outside of that comfort zone a little bit and sharing in that expression again is another exchange that is nice to bring out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. It does and I think it also breaks. There's so many added benefits, man. Yeah, it does, and I think it also breaks. There's so many added benefits, man, even just breaking. You know, you and I have talked about the whole consumerism culture of church and which is like okay, man, sing my songs, preach my sermons, make sure the chairs are comfortable for me Children you go and preach to my children and I think that there's a way that this, being Walter Ethnic, breaks that, because there's something that's not going to be for you and you have to figure out how to come around it, dodo, isn't it funny that doesn't our lives not work that way in any other arena, but we try to force that within the church arena.
Speaker 1:A lot of times we're like I want it the way, I want it. You know, I want my order and you're like, but no, but the rest of life is throwing curveballs at you.
Speaker 2:Yeah so you have to in costco. You've got to walk through things you don't want to get what you want.
Speaker 1:I like that. That's funny. So what do you think are some of the? And we kind of talked about it, but what are some things you feel are some of the challenges or hurdles to overcome in order to truly embrace a multi-ethnic worship expression Like? What are some things within current worship culture that maybe you're encouraged by also?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think number one is understanding that there is a majority culture and it's very difficult when you are the majority culture to to have an awareness that. That you know. It's easy for someone who's outside of the majority culture because you know you have to deal with the majority culture, you know so. So I think that number one, as a worship leader, you know, you listen to this and you're you're leading worship at a church is you know you, you need to be able to be like okay, there is a majority culture. You know.
Speaker 2:If you look at CCLI or Spotify and everything you know, of the most sung songs in America, you know, in 100 songs, you know, 90 will be a certain way, right. Same thing in Kenya, if you come to Kenya, 90 out of 100 will be a certain way, right. So, number one, understanding that there is a majority culture, that you're operating in. Number two then now you've got to be able to go like okay, I understand that, I'm not angry, I'm not angry, I'm not offended, I just have to understand that that's the reality. And number two then I'll say how do I then become aware of the others? And then how do I do that musically? Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So be able to say okay, so who are the others in my culture? You culture, they're, they're. You know if, if you came to my church in Kenya, you'd be an other? Yeah, right. So I've got to be able to be aware of that, right. And I remember Pastor M telling me this, and I never used to like it say kanji put translations for every song because there are people who don't understand Swahili. So in Kenya you'd have a Swahili song with the English words translated, right, and I was like why?
Speaker 2:it makes it more difficult, clumsy, yeah, whatever it is but then that's what he was being conscious of the others, yeah, and there might not have been many, yeah, but he was saying there's some people who are coming and all they're going to do is they can only worship through the word. Yeah, they don't know anything else, you know. And so basically being able to say who are the others, and then how do I build my consciousness about them? And then now, from a song point of view, when I'm selecting songs, sometimes it might not be so much so doing a new song, a different song, it might be just taking the song that they sing and stylizing it. And you know, with Jason, our music director here, you know we're always doing that and saying, hey, it might be the same song, but there's a way that it can be played that makes someone who's an other go like, ooh, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's got a little something to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think that awareness is key. Yeah, so, so, so I think that awareness is key. Then number two they're now saying, within my context what's a strategy? What do I actually need to do to make sure that, um, um, uh, you you hear me say this so often, it's one of my favorite sayings you know what, what, what, what we do is way more important than what we say, that actions are actually the proof of what you really believe. Yeah, so you might say this, but how you act right and so so building now your action right, so it doesn't doesn't matter how much you say we are multi-ethnic. Yeah, if you do it, you are.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah so and you got to see that show up in every aspect, right Like we see that come from, uh, uh, preaching and the way that you know the um, uh, different, uh, you know, cultures and ethnicities and experiences that are represented through even like Ricky's preaching and guest speakers here, and then now in our worship or and then in our, and you see it just kind of branch out and the export of that is like being that yeah, that yeah, and then you get it's interesting because I, you know, initially like I, this, I was very, it was kind of monoculture here, I felt, or maybe you know, more of a bi culture that I talked about before, just hispanic and predominantly white, yeah, but then, as we've seen that kind of the diversity kind of change, and we, you know, definitely embrace more being a more multi-ethnic church.
Speaker 1:You're seeing this beautiful expression as you guys navigate that and kind of nuance the music and create little pockets of different expressions. You're like we almost that's where I think we create a little bit of a different sound and we're starting to see like it's, it's actually this that's. It's a very unique, it just seems a little bit different and it's also and it pulls people out of their comfort zones, which I love it, does, it does, and there's an intentionality to it.
Speaker 2:For sure, there's a price to pay. There is a price to pay, you know. But one of the things, so I'll segue, you and I are passionate about songwriting and I'll do a little songwriting segue, just because the they're kind of like two streams, um, uh, around songwriting. One is very predominant, which is, you know, the songwriting for the capital c church, right. So, um, you know, you've got all these big names etc, and you know they're writing songs, but they're writing songs like the Church of America is going to sing this song, right, and they do, right, you know. But there's marketing and there's this whole, you know, system behind it, right. But the other, the second stream, which I'm way more passionate about and moves my heart way more, is the worship leader looking at the congregation that God has given them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then saying man Lord, what are the songs that these people need to?
Speaker 1:be, singing.
Speaker 2:What are the themes that they need truth in and that they need to declare this truth? And the same way, a preacher will look at the congregation and ask God, what do you want your people to know? Yeah, right Now. If it so happens that that song becomes a song that the nation sings, that's well and good. Yeah, but it's not the intention.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not the driver yeah, but it's not the intention. Yeah, it's not the driver. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the intention is like hey, I look at this congregation, I'm like man, god, I really I've really been sensing this and I think we can have a song that helps them break this idea down, right, and so so it's the same thing for for the multi-ethnic conversation, where you've got to be able to look at your congregation and ask who are the others and ask what do we need to do with ourselves to make this happen? And so it's not so much so saying, okay, cool, who are the multi-ethnic worship guys out there? Let's grab this. Yeah, no, no no it. Basically there needs to be some deeper thought and and and you know, musically, you knowically some figuring out where you say for these people that God has given us, how do we help them, how do we create some discomfort for them to embrace this idea?
Speaker 1:Well, and that may look. That's so, dude. I love that. I could talk about this for hours, of course, with you, but that looks like that may change down the road, even based off of what God wants to do in the hearts of his people. And so if you're intentional about that and you're aware of it and you're paying attention more to the heart of God, of what he's doing and stirring with what he's stewarded to you with right, our people and what he wants to do in and through you and our participation, you're going to see that probably change. But you know, right at this time, this is who we are right now, correct, and this is what, what we, what's needed in order to move forward yeah, what God wants to do, yeah, locally, yeah, and then, like you said, great if it expands and it moves on and goes beyond that, yeah, but there's something happening here.
Speaker 2:It's it has to be born for here, and I feel like when you look at even Paul's letters, Paul's sermons, there's always a specific audience, right? I'm saying this to the people who live in.
Speaker 2:Ephesus and going through this. Yeah, you're going through this. Now. This might be global and it might have value outside of this. Whatever, and it does. It's God's word, yeah, but it was being said to these people because they were doing this right and they needed God's truth to help them overcome this. So I think it's the same. I think it's the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, changed his tone with different churches that he was writing to in different places and what was going on? And we're like, man, you're so loving here in the Philippians and Corinth and all that, yeah, and you're going, man, these letters look so diverse and different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, you're speaking to different groups of people Speaking to different groups, and and so every single worship leader needs to look at who you know. Who, yeah, who's. Who am I speaking to? Who's the people that God has called me to speak to? That's a good word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I love that. Well, so we know that true transformation doesn't come just from simply singing songs on a Sunday. So what's some practical?
Speaker 2:things we can do to promote or shape a more broad or healthy worship expression. The other six days of the week, that's great.
Speaker 2:So I think number one is, I think, becoming praisers or becoming worshipers, and there's this idea of. So there's several, my mind is in several now, but such a great question. So number one is Brother Lawrence famously made known this idea of practicing God's presence, and I think the quote is pretty dope. I'm sure I'll mess it up, but his quote is like you know whether I'm in the middle of the busiest day, I think you walked in the kitchen, yeah, and I have a sense of almost have a sense of god's presence, right, and yeah, I definitely botched it up, but but the whole idea is is this constant, um, uh, you know that that everything, everything is spiritual? Yeah, so, when you're sitting at your desk, at your computer and, and you know, basically carrying with you a sense of god's presence, um, at your job, at your, you know, driving your kids to school, whatever, whatever it is in the mundane, right.
Speaker 2:So I think number one how we take worship outside of the Sunday is cultivating an awareness of God's presence and bringing God into every situation. Yeah, yeah, I think here on Sebastian Bach I don't know what the actual quotes were, but at the beginning of every manuscript for a song you know he would write, he'd write these initials and at the back he'd write a different set of initials, but the front of the initials was basically asking you know, for God to be glorified, yeah. And then at the back was may you be glorified by this work.
Speaker 1:Right, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it's that, that idea that man I'm mowing my lawn, yeah, um. How is this a moment of praise? Yeah, um, and, and all of that. So that's so number one of practicing God's presence. I think number two is being quick to praise God, because praising God is ascribing to him what is due him, right. And I was told a story about a friend of mine who, um, when, when, when their grand I think grandmother passed away Um, no, it wasn't a grandmother when their brother passed away, so it was a child passed away. Um, she saw her father and he's like, when the machine like stopped breathing, done, he lifted his hands and he said praise God, and like, that thing rocked me, but then it was.
Speaker 2:That's the whole idea of cultivating a lifestyle of praise, where you ascribe to God what's due him, yeah, and it has nothing to do with what's happening on earth, what's happening in your life, it's just what's due him. What's due him is praise, right and so. But can you imagine how that impacts you when you take it outside of Sunday and, um, you know where you're, you're quick to praise God and you're quick to basically say God, you are great and you're greater than anything. I could be facing, right, like, what kind of life do you live now? Yeah, right, um, and so I, I feel like being able to do that on a day by day basis is the goal. Yeah, that on a day by day basis is the goal. Yeah, um, and and, and I feel like um. Sunday then now becomes kind of like your metaphor, where you're like okay, cool, now I understand how to do this. Now let me go out and do this in my day to day life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Not that it matters, but would you say that would you look at more of Sunday as the start to your week or the end of celebratory? So is it the foundation for where you're going or is it the celebratory ending of what has happened?
Speaker 2:I think it's both.
Speaker 1:Right, I think it's both Great question?
Speaker 2:It's definitely both, because it's your hey, we're together, wherever you're at, we're doing this together and I can look and say, oh, I'm not alone on this journey. Yeah, you know, but tomorrow, monday is coming. And when Monday comes, how am I able to praise God? You know through it all.
Speaker 1:What a week I had, or, man, what a week I'm ready for. Exactly, exactly, yeah, and maybe it should even be both, both, yeah, and maybe it should even be both, both, yeah, exactly At the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right.
Speaker 1:I know I tried to figure that one out. I was like you know, should we look at it as like something that we anticipate and look forward to, or is it something that we're filled up and we come out of? Yes, and I was like, actually it's both. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's like you don't get to separate them. Um, yeah, but, but, yeah, but. I feel like when you look at the other six days, um, I think using Sunday is a metaphor, um, and this really only makes sense if if you're living it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. You say, uh, describing, you know, giving praise and get. You would be saying, giving praise where praise is due, yeah, ascribing to him, um, you know praise and is due. Yeah, ascribing to him, um, you know praise and, uh, what's due to him through his character and his nature, yeah, not just the experience, just what he gives me and blesses me with and does for me. That's usually that's very consumer western culture. Yeah, but just saying, hey, this is who god is, it's who god, it is what he's created, and all of those things, and outside of anything else, like if this is all that I had, that's good enough, because and he has a boy, he's done and you know all those things. So, um, I did uh write a couple of things down for um, uh, you know some practical things for the other six days Um, you mentioned it already, but it's prioritizing biblical foundations for worship.
Speaker 1:So we said everything, like you know, first the Bible, then the hymnal, and so I think that's a really that that you know worship is meant to extract a response to the reality of God, you know, and we have that tension of you know, we kind of turned it into an external expression of experiential moments rather than a formed understanding that it's like theological and accurate. So the Bible helps us do that. Correct, because you're like, hey, that's a truth that was found in scripture, yeah, and so I ascribe that to his nature. Correct, correct. So I love that. And, um, so I'm always real big, you know, we talk about on the theology of the songs we sing, you know, cause I'm like, if we're going to rehearse those, you better be rehearsing truths, right? So I kind of, you know, I hold a pretty, you know, I'm I'm trying to, you know, and it's fun and it actually creates for, like, some beautiful conversations.
Speaker 1:And so I really enjoy it in a healthy context. It's so fun, and so you know we we always enjoy talking about the theology of the songs we sing, but also, too. You've really changed this for me and, like you, you are the one of the people who just puts this on display the most. You do it and you live this life and that's a life of prayer. So transformation and I think the other six days a week, you know transformation through personal and corporate opportunities, but like the green room prayer on sundays, the behind the scenes, like prayer is a staple of the and like kind of are the embodiment of really the external, this external praise, yeah, and so I think like a rich prayer life, yeah, speaks volumes to what comes out.
Speaker 2:it does in a corporate setting, oh, it does it does, it does and and I think, yeah, if you look at sunday as as um, um, you know, basically, it's there's this idea of overflow and you know, speaking specifically to worship teams and worship leaders, right, um, there's this idea of Sunday is an overflow and it's got to be an overflow of what God has put in you, right? So you're not looking at Sunday as an end. All right, sunday is like the extra, like you could have Sunday or you could not, right, but Sunday is like the extra, like you could have Sunday or you could not. Yeah, right, but Sunday is is extra.
Speaker 2:And what I love about what you're saying, it's you know, you're cultivating prayer. You're cultivating practicing God's presence, which is this idea of nonstop prayer. It's like every moment is a God. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that this is a moment to praise God, right, and you know, when you're talking about prayer, you're talking about practicing God's presence. You're talking about being quick to praise. Being quick to praise God. You know, I love the Psalm that says your praise shall continuously be in my mouth.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And older folk just seem to have this. You know psalm that says your praise shall continuously be in my mouth. Right, it is, it's, it's. And older folk just seem to have this. You know, like, like, you know, I just love. You know talking, you know my mom. She says praise god so much. Yeah, yeah, you know. Oh, praise god, praise god. Yeah, but that's what she's doing like praise, I'm quick to praise him. Yeah, I'm quick to praise him, you know. And if we can be able to cultivate that man, like how rich our lives would be.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, you know yeah, dude, I um, I also wrote down in here. You've already touched all these like in some way, um, but I'm just kind of, you know, going back over them again. Uh, I love this you talked about I forget specifically how you said it, but it's kind of, uh, oh, the the Thanksgiving analogy or like the, so integrating a culture of hospitality, so promoting a welcoming culture, I think, and that includes not just we think of that, oh, I can do that at church, but that's also just in our lives in general, right, yeah, and so that invites people in, right, so that you can experience the fullness of what God has intended for us and have that exchange that we've talked about, exactly, exactly. And then the other one is was just to be curious, be gracious, and then, you know, gospel focus.
Speaker 1:So, and I think, another one too I was going to ask, no, I was going to see if we can put it on here, and we'll see if we can get it. But explore a multi-ethnic Spotify playlist. Yeah, you know, just throw together some stuff. So, you know, we always hope that our conversations are engaging here, but we want to provide people with helpful resources too. So, outside of maybe doing a multi-ethnic Spotify playlist for you guys. We'll see what we can come up with.
Speaker 2:I love that, I love that, definitely do that.
Speaker 1:That would be good, huh, yeah, yeah, just to get some diversity in music and just say hey guys, go check this out, because you can do that right. Yeah, yeah, and we could throw something together, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, easy, easy. That'd be fun, and I think maybe we can even do two things. I think maybe we do a multi-ethnic, which which is in the American context, yeah, and then we do a global one.
Speaker 1:There you go yeah.
Speaker 2:That would be good, yeah, and, and a global one. How that would you know? Let that create some joy in your heart about that. God is moving around the world.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe even challenging you there. You know what I mean. Inviting you into that, like I just think there's so much to be had. So, just, you know, just see how he meets you as you engage with other cultures, music and things like that. It could be kind of cool, huh? I love it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. We'll include some other things in our show notes, like you know, about building a healthy, multi-ethnic church. I got some good resources in there. We have another book called From Every People and Nation, a Biblical Theology Erased, so we'll talk a little bit about that. We've had some discussions today and a few other things to explore. But anything you want to add to the resources, anything specific. Oh, you said, brother Lawrence, practicing the Presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that'd be great, that'd be a great resource because when you talk about the other six days, just kind of understanding the whole practicing God's presence as a life discipline, as a spiritual discipline, yeah, we'll put that in there as well.
Speaker 1:Well, kanji. Any last comments or thoughts before we wrap this thing up.
Speaker 2:No man, this has been good. I think it's been really, really awesome having this conversation. It's yeah, it's just excited me about, you know what the potential of the believer embracing all that God has to, all that God has for them, and I think this is just one of those. There are many areas, but this is just one of them, yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree. So thankful for your friendship, your leadership, just the way that you lead the people that you've been entrusted with, and just for the way that I just see the Holy Spirit work in and through your life, and so I'm just, I'm thankful for your friendship and so well, there you have it, guys. Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share and like, spread the word and, as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do to further the gospel and the world around you. Until next time, peace.