Called To Multiply | The Other 6 Days | Episode 69

In this episode of The Other 6 Days Podcast, CJ sits down with Pastor David Bell—our new Next Gen Pastor for an honest conversation of what discipleship looks like in real life, especially from a younger generations perspective. David is passionate about ensuring that we are raising up disciples who make disciples within this next generation and that they are equipped to engage the world for the gospel.

From mentoring mishaps, generational gaps, to life-changing relationships, this conversation explores why discipleship still matters, why it’s messy, and why it's one of the most important thing the Church ensures it does well.

Whether you’re discipling or being discipled, this episode will encourage you to lean in, not back.

For more information or to join the conversation, head over to https://southwestchurch.com/theother6days or email us at theother6days@southwestchurch.com

FOLLOW US!

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theother6dayspodcast/
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@theother6days
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@theother6days

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days Podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings and not just for them. In this episode, we're joined by Pastor David Bell, our new Next Gen pastor, who's passionate about raising up the next generation of disciple makers and helping them adequately be adequately equipped to engage the world with the gospel. David, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be back. So our conversation, it's a fun one today. As you and I have had many previous conversations before on this particular topic, we've both had the privilege to engage in a variety of discipleship opportunities and relationship building as both mentor and mentee and even trainee capacities. As a result, I'm sure we have a ton of stories, but let's start by sharing some of the mo the more memorable and not so memorable moments. For sure. Yeah. So what do you think? Uh what's a what's a moment that you thought, like, man, I was so built for this. Uh if you have one.

First Attempts At Discipleship

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Yeah, I so the first dude I ever discipled um where I was like, man, I'm not, I'm not cut out for this. Okay. Yeah uh was this guy named Tim. And Tim and I are really close now. He was one of the groomsmen at my wedding. So it worked it worked out really well. But like I I learned about discipleship because I just read the Great Commission, Go and Make Disciples of All Nations. And I was like, dude, I'm not doing that. Like, and so I like immediately went into like overdrive. I gotta go, I gotta go make a disciple. And so uh I was serving in this youth ministry at the time, and there's this uh junior kind of football guy there, his name's Tim, and I'm like, dude, I'm gonna just I'm gonna figure out what discipleship looks like. So I invited him to go grab coffee at like 6 a.m. before school, and we were gonna meet every week. And and he came in and he's like, uh he said yes, which I don't really know why, uh, because I didn't know what discipleship really was. He didn't know what discipleship really was. And the first coffee, he looks at me and he's like, So what do we do? And I was like, I think this is it, man. Like, I think we we just have coffee, like I but I wasn't being discipled. I didn't like I was going to church and I was like in guru, you know, I was like plugged in, but like I didn't have a mentor at that time. So I was like, uh I'm gonna get back to you, Tim, right? Like I'm gonna we're gonna this is gonna get better, I promise. Just stick it out. But it was so awkward for the first probably like three months. Like, I'm like desperately searching for a mentor, disciple maker, yeah, so that I could learn what discipleship is while I'm simultaneously trying to keep this kid engaged in a conversation about his spiritual formation, and I'm not forming him at all. Like we're just literally grabbing coffee and I'm like stare and we're just staring at each other awkwardly. Yeah. And like, you know how it is with guys. Guys aren't big talkers typically. And so you're like, once you run out of a question, yeah, you just it's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

So yeah, it gets it can get real shallow real fast.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Yeah, I got real shallow real fast. It was like, how are you? Good. How are you? Good. Yeah, that was it.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

And that was solid, solid discipleship. Super good first few months. It changed, it changed. You got better. Yeah, I love the intention. Great intention, poor execution on that one. But um dude, at least you saw that. Like, you know, that you saw that in uh Matthew 20, and you're like, go make disciples and I'm gonna give it a try, trial by fire. Yeah, well, I just like I felt really convicted.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

It's it's when I got like passionate about discipleship because I was like, man, like I like we we have this big huge saying on our church here, uh uh that discipleship is called a gospel to produce, reproducing followers of Jesus Christ through life on life engagement. And I just like didn't see anywhere in the Bible where like my discipleship story was solely anchored to church programming.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

And so like I was like, I probably should be doing something in addition to the discipleship path that my church had, right? Like, and I didn't know what that meant. And like I didn't see a lot of people doing it. And so I was like so confused and like just trying to honor Christ. And it was like it was really awkward. It was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

That's cool. I mean, but that's where it starts though, right? Like we all kind of stumble into it a little like you gotta make the decision eventually, yeah. However, you're equipped. That's right. And so that was that's pretty cool. That's right. Um yeah. What about is there another one that you're like kind of success, or you're like, man, that actually worked out really good, or you know, that I don't know, God showed up in a big way.

From Awkward Coffee To Real Growth

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yeah. I mean, one of the dudes that discipled is one of our residents now. So it's been fun to see, like, um it's been fun to see how a I kind of forced him into discipleship. So I I went to go revitalize a a youth ministry in Ventura and and it was excellent. But when I got there, there was like an average of two students that showed up. And like so it was pretty terrible. I mean, he was one of them. And so uh and he was awesome, right? And and he had never been discipled. And I'm like, dude, you're gonna start being discipled. And by then, like years had passed from Tim to to Caden, and and by the time I got around to him, I knew what I was doing. I had a plan for how to make a disciple. Like there was a I knew how to get you from A to B to C to D and start forming. And so uh we were able to get engaged, but it was so cool a year later to or two years later to hear him feel like this call to pastoral ministry, and now five years later of pouring into him, of having a friendship with him, of investing my time into my efforts into forming him and seeing him connect with other disciple makers and mature Christians and and getting fully formed to now being like, man, I'm called a pastoral ministry, I'm gonna learn from the residency program, I'm gonna grow and mature in my faithfulness and like my giftedness. And so that's like a cool God story because typically, like your your disciple like falls away. You get a short season. You just get a short season and just like, all right, I don't really like I didn't I don't know if I was a seed planter or if I was watering or like if I was just pulling or if I was just pulling weeds, you know. Like I don't it it can be awkward, you know. You did have one that didn't come back early. So I was just talking to CJ about uh uh so one of the guys that I chose a disciple, this guy was so zealous, man. Um I really liked him. I really liked him. Uh we were meeting every week, and uh I try to figure out like if guys are are worth the investment, right? Like, are you showing up? Are you prepared? Are you like canceling all the time? Are you late? Are you unprepared? Right. And and he was showing, he was so hungry to learn. And so I go one week and he didn't and he just no-showed me. And I'm like, dude, like that's out of character. Like, what's up with that? So I'm texting him, I'm like, dude, like, where are you? Like, bro, like you have to at least let me know. Like, I got a fan, like what's going on. And so I I get to church and they're like, David, did you hear about uh yeah, did you hear about this guy? And I was like, I was like, yeah, like that's my disciple. What's up? Like, what happened? And they're like, Oh, he's in jail. And I was like, Well, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Like, he wasn't at his meeting this morning.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah, I I literally don't know whatever happened to him. Like, I know he got arrested, and like I never ever heard from him ever again. Like, jail ministry, dude. He went into a different ministry field, you know, like different context. Um Yeah, so that was one where like the fruitfulness was growing, he was growing in a different tree. Like he wasn't he wasn't learning. He's bearing a fruit you know nothing about. So it was brutal. It was brutal, but that was like a really awkward. That's like hindsight 2020, it's a funny story, but in the moment I was like, Yeah, you're like this is a very poor reflection of me.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Like, like uh he's supposed to be imitating me. Like, this isn't good.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Like people are gonna start wondering, like, am I a criminal? Like, yeah, it wasn't good. It was so funny. That's funny.

Stories Of Fruit, Failure, And Jail

SPEAKER_00 7:31

It is so funny. Well, thanks for sharing those, dude. Like that it's hilarious. Yeah, I've had mine and mine were similar. I've talked about them before, but like mine, I don't have anything specific in those, but mine is mostly the the realization for me is that I tend to do, you know, it's a shoulder-to-shoulder, shoulder, peer-to-peer kind of thing. And I just step into them faithfully and I'm like, man, God, you use this time in some way that's fruitful. And I'm, you know, you're usually well organized and planned, but um, they never turn out the way that I anticipated. I kind of build these like romantic ideas of what they not romantic, but you know, like like big ideas of like being seen as eloquent and that I'm gonna bestow these this great knowledge, and they're gonna be like, oh my gosh, my life has changed, you know. But it's always that's always self-serving. Yeah. And then God ends up doing something totally different. And most of the time, those guys end up saying, you know what you taught me? Every guy, it's a common thing I almost know it's always gonna pop up, is that I create, I tend to create a permission that other guys say, if you can do it, I can do it. Yeah. And I'm like, man, that was so humbling for me. Like when I first realized that like other guys were like, actually, you make it so accessible and so easy and you don't do it really that well. I actually feel empowered to do it. Yeah. Which is great for kingdom building and stuff, but it like makes you feel a certain way at first where you're like, oh man, actually I I did such a poor job that you're like, I can do better. It's well, CJ, you mentored me for a while, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Like, like when I first got to uh to Southwest, now Wellspring, but you mentored me for a while when we were going through downline together, and uh and man, you do make it accessible. Like you're approachable, you're you're like a guy that you're is easy to trust. And like and I think like that, that's a that's there's a little bit of like um I I hate using the word magic in Christian circles because I think people like judge me immediately. But there's a little bit of sauce to that. Like there's a little bit of special dust that's poured onto like that characteristic of making people have a safety to show up vulnerable and transparent, yeah. That not everyone has, right? Like I I know I don't like so when I start discipleship relationships, it takes like you have this ability to make people feel comfortable really, really fast.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

I have to like build relationship for a long time before someone's like, I'm now gonna like divulge my sinful nature, you know? Like, and you're like, oh, okay, this is cool. It's happening now. I think you have an like this this this special sauce where it's like, man, people show up and they're willing to be transparent. And I mean it's probably that shoulder-to-shoul kind of component that you do in discipleship. And so it's great though. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Once you recognize that it's cool because you can actually embrace it earlier. And then two, what it did for me though, is so awesome. I was always this uh endeavor that was so um kind of um personal or singular, you know, like it was me discipling someone else. I realized I needed other guys to help me disciple other guys. That's great. So then it becomes more of a team. I'm like, hey, you're equipped in a certain way that you bring another layer, another aspect to it. So it actually ends up being more communal. Yeah. And so like I'm like, hey, I need to tap other guys on the shoulder, have them come in, speak to the group, talk about so I'm way more open to other people pouring into the guys I'm pouring into.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Which is so huge. And I I learned that from uh a pastor um out uh in where is he? Uh Little Rock, Arkansas, his name's Danny. Um Danny Danny Hinton? Yeah, Danny Hinton taught me this. So um uh Danny is great, he was one of the teachers at Downline, and I stole 45 minutes from him because I had to pick him up from the airport one time when he was coming out here to speak. And I'm like, dude, Danny, I I'm so sorry for doing this, but I'm gonna ask you every question I have. Yeah. Right. Because like this is your job. Like you make dis like your job is making disciples. Like that's all you do. And so like I had a bunch of questions and I asked him that because I realized I was very selfish early on in disciple making. I wanted to hold people near to me because I thought I was the best one at it.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

And then Danny's like, dude, no, a good disciple maker shares his disciple with mature believers because you I only have a certain angle that I'm gonna understand something or a certain level of knowledge or certain level of maturity or certain certain giftedness. And like you want to expose them to mature believers that can get them fully formed. Otherwise, you're gonna be creating a mini you and you aren't perfect. You know, and so like that's that's not a good example. And so it was really cool to hear like that layer of it and to realize, man, my limiting of a disciple's relationships is is a direct reflection of my uh effectiveness as a disciple. The maker, you know, and so good. It's it, yeah. And learning that is great. And that's the thing about making disciples, is like you're just figuring it out as you go. As you go. So it's like as we mature in Christ, as we're being disciples, we're being formed, we're also like changing how we make disciples and how we're forming people. And it's just this ever-evolving kind of process that's fun when you're open to it.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Exactly. I always think five five to ten years from now, like what kind of thing we'll be looking back, going like, oh man, has such a deficit, so many gaps, so many things, you know. And uh, you know, the the Holy Spirit fills up uh shows up and takes care of all of that for you, you know. But um, but yeah, it's uh it's uh pretty um humbling, but also um uh a great, uh like a wonderful opportunity. Yeah, it is great. Well, tell us a little bit about like orient people to um, you know, what we mean when we say the word discipleship a little bit, but mostly like your passion and like how you engage in it practically and how you were called to it and all you know, yeah, yeah.

Making Disciples A Team Sport

SPEAKER_03 12:43

So like I like I said, um to me, discipleship is very much what our church teaches, which is the call of the gospel to produce, reproducing followers of Jesus Christ through life on life engagement. So there's a lot of layers, right? I I think um the thing that oriented me to discipleship was is discipleship just small group? Yeah. Is discipleship just church attendance? Is discipleship just serving? Or is it a collection of all of these attributes with an individual involved in your life, making sure that you're forming through those attributes? And so I think that discipleship's this this kind of conglomerate of a lot of things. I practice discipleship in a life on life engagement because I trust my church to disciple people programmatically and move them from milk to at least the beginning of meat. Yeah, you know, and then my job is to walk with that person in life and engage with them in in whatever way I can. Um and and again, I I learned this just literally by reading The Great Commission. Like, I'm like I'm a super logical person. So like if I read something that I'm not doing, yeah, I'm like a big self-corrector. Like it's so I read that and I'm like, dude, I'm not doing this and I need to do this. And so I started just kind of stumbling into it. But then I I also realized like if I'm gonna make a disciple, I need to be discipled. And so I very quickly I started making a disciple before I was ever discipled. Like I just allowed programs to to form me and education to form me and things like that. And so my first uh mentor, uh Pastor Wes, uh Wes Harding, who's this phenomenal man of God. Um, and he was a pastor at our church, and he was so incredible and uh taught me a lot, but I realized that uh I needed to be expose myself to other disciple makers simultaneously to him because he was like a leadership guru. He was really, really good in that space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He was forming me as a as a professional leader, as a pastor, as a as a vocational minister and and excellent at it. And then I came along with uh uh Pastor George, um George Lopez, not the comedian. Oh, good clear clarification. George Lopez really formed m the family orientation of me. And so I I kind of met with these two different guys at the same time. Business and family. Yeah, and just like personal, professional, and and and I just realized like I I just had gaps. And so I think if you're like a humble, self-aware person, you realize like what a disciple maker or mentor can offer you. And like, that's great. Take it, it's gold. Yeah, you know, but like if there's gaps in that, just find someone who can fill that, right? Like, and um, and so it was great. And he and they both knew each other, they knew I was being mentored by each other, so they were able to dialogue on the back end and talk about what was going on. Like, how's David? How are we forming him? Are we overlapping or are we not? Like, should we? Should we like oh, you're gonna miss your meeting with him? I'll I'll pick up, right? And so I was able to have two mentors that had a deep relationship with each other that were older than me by a couple decades, and like had done all the things that I'm hoping to do. And so, like, it was a cool season. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I just that formed you a lot. I mean, that had huge implications as to like how you function now, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:02

I mean, yeah, fundamentally, because I had a safe place to where I could go and express where I'm at and what in and you know, when you're a young guy, I started getting discipled when I was 20, 21, 21. Yeah. So like I'm a young guy, so I think I'm the best person in the world. Like, I am the guy. Like everyone else is dumb. You thought you were mentoring, or that you were yeah, yeah, you were discipling. Like, and so you go into it and you start realizing through discipleship like this characteristic called humility. Uh, because you realize real quick that you don't know the answer to every single thing in the world.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

And so I was able to like really understand. At that time, I was a children's pastor. So, like, get the like CJ, this was so convicting to me. I was pastoring kids and I had never been discipled. And like that was so convicting for me because and then I realized, like, man, there's probably a lot of people that don't engage in life on life discipleship. Got it. They engage in programmatic discipleship. Yeah, you know, and and which is good also. Like, it's not it's not a negative, but um, life on life used form like in a really deep, intimate way, uh, really fully. And so they were able to expose some deficits in me. Um I ended up stepping out of the pastorate for a while uh in order to like just go like sit in a humble position and learn that and kind of grow. Yeah, because I was realizing like, man, I don't I don't actually think I should be doing this right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Well, it's hard to pass on something that you don't possess yourself. So, you know, you're like, hey, I don't know how to give what I don't have. Yeah, yeah. So like you gotta, you know, so there's a little bit of that. And I think you can do it like at various levels, like what even if it's just a little, sure. Like you can give that. But in that position, yeah, it requires a little bit more. Yeah. Do you this led a lot though into like uh like tell us a little bit about your new role that you have here at Wellspring. You have um and like why you feel called in this season of ministry to that particular one. It has a lot to do with some of this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Yeah. Uh yeah. So my role role just shifted January 1st. So 20 days ago. Um it shifted. I I previously was doing operations here and overseeing like finance and all that stuff. Um and and it really kind of shifted because of a conversation with Natalie and Ricky. Uh they they recognized that I was already doing a lot of the things that they wanted to see in this role. And we've been searching for this role for a while. And so they kind of engage in a conversation of just saying, hey, is the Lord doing anything? Like, knock, knock, knock. Like, yeah, hey, like, are you paying attention? And and to be totally honest, I wasn't. Like, I was like, no, dude, I'm like super satisfied.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Like, I was watching you side job this, dude.

Defining Discipleship Beyond Programs

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Yeah, like I was like, dude, this is fine. I'm just kind of like, and and so I was doing a lot of the things that um they wanted to see, right? I was having our pastoral residents come over and work out. I was mingling with people during the day, like I was making disciples, I was plugging in, like, and and so they're like, man, like that's what we want to see. Like, can can you start praying about this? And so uh it led into this this prayer moment with me and my wife and just figuring out, man, are we being disobedient to the Lord if we say no? Or are we being disobedient to the Lord if we say yes? Right. And we we really felt like we would be be disobedient if we said no. And so we we said yes, and and so the role is is interesting. It's a few layers, but it has everything to do with uh spiritual formation and discipleship. And uh and so now I get to oversee uh the pastoral residency. So resident just these young guys that are being gals being called to pastoral ministry, training them up in the practice of being a pastor, uh spiritual formation, the competencies that they need. Um exposure, yeah. Yeah, exposure, education, experience, um, all these things that allow them to understand. So they weren't like me as a children's pastor, walking in and being like, all right, guys, like I I haven't been formed at all, let me form you, you know, like and just this crazy thing. And so um and so I get to do that. I get to uh help our church launch what we're we we don't really have a name, but we're calling it the Ministry Training Institute. So people that want to do that. More education, experience, exposure. But they're probably not going to seminary and into vocational ministry, but they want another layer of depth to their learning, to their knowledge base. And so I get to launch that with our church, which is going to be really, really fun. And that's going to be fully spiritual formation. Those are going to be our our future like balls and disciple makers. And honestly, like they're probably only doing it if they currently are making disciples, right? Like they're already there mentally and and uh in their ministry life. And so yeah. And then the last layer is we're gonna be launching this uh next gen, this young adult ministry for 20s and 30s, um, which I think is gonna be really special to see like how like the valley's just changed, right? Like uh I'm a nerd, so I look at census data, I pay attention to trends of numbers, like there's a hundred thousand people under 35 in this valley. Like, I don't like it's gonna be great to create a space for them to feel like they have community and network because our valley's so spread out that a lot of young adults don't congregate together anywhere. And so I think it's gonna be really special to launch this coming up and to see the church supply resources to meet the need of young adults in the valley. I just think there's gonna be this generational change that happens in families, that happens in marriages, that happens in churches because of what God is doing. And and He's doing it globally, right? Like we're we're responding to something that the Lord's doing all around the world. Um and so you see it everywhere. These 20s and 30s are the fastest reattending church members. And it's just a really interesting place. But I'm super excited about this season. It's fun to be uh I mean, it's just fun to like get to just do ministry, to just like be with people, to form them, to share with them anything that and to expose them to other people that have done it also, you know, like it's just gonna be a really fun season.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Well, I love the passion that God's like uh put in uh your heart, and I've seen you formed and shaped and kind of and equipped over a long period of time, like for such a time as this. And so it's so cool to watch you get really like, you know, excited about it. And um, so yeah, I love watching that. But let's jump back a little bit. Uh you mentioned it and we kind of talked, let's talk this idea of like uh people and programs, you know, this idea of relational discipleship. And I think a lot of well-intentioned churches, which you know, we we've been a part of some really fruitful opportunities here and programmatically. But what would you say is like one of some of the biggest hurdles to a strictly programmatic approach versus relational discipleship?

SPEAKER_03 22:34

That's a good question. I at least personally, um, because I think everyone has their own kind of like bent towards how they feel. I think some people feel really secure in a program type environment. Um, I think those people are naturally extroverted, right? Like they're they're happy with discipleship in group contexts. Yeah. I'm naturally introverted. So like most people think I'm extroverted, but like at the end of the day, I gotta go hide in a cave for like an hour to recharge, you know? And and so um, I don't always naturally feel safe sharing in a group space, right? Like I I feel reserved. And so for me, I get less formed because I'm unwilling to participate. Um, so I think that there's like this both and that has to happen. I think groups are really great, not only for extroverts and introverts, but they're great at creating relationships that form discipleship life on life. Yeah. And I think it's one of these spl spaces where that's really where like that's the church. That's like groups are the body of believers. Like that is the church fundamentally. And so like just being able to uh submit to the apostles' teaching, to the reading of scripture, to the breaking of bread, to prayer, to like this corporate environment of growing in your faith, yeah, I think is really important as the segue to then doing it every day of your life. Right, yeah, the other six days, right? Maybe pun intended. Um Well done. Thank you for the plug. Yeah, you're welcome. You like that plug? Um so I I just think I I don't programs can't be every day. Yeah. And Christianity's supposed to be. And so I think if you only lean program, you're only doing church twice a week, Sunday and whatever small group day you have, uh, maybe three times if you're a super Christian, right? Like but following Christ, as far as I understand in scripture, is a daily experience. And so I want to make sure I'm engaged in community with someone. Now I have a few disciples under me, I have people next to me, and I have people above me. And like, and I'm engaged in church, in this practice of Christianity, of submitting to Christ, of forming in my faith, of becoming and imitating Christ-likeness daily. And so I think that there's this, there, there's this beautiful harmony between programs and like relational discipleship. And I think that there's a super deep overlap if you're doing it right. Yeah. Um I think if you're doing either independent of each other, there's probably a gap in your discipleship. Yeah. Right. Like if you're just being formed by a person, that person is not exposing you probably to other people. Yeah. And if you and like you're just out of touch, right? And if you're only doing programs, then maybe you're not getting the depth that you can get from individuals one-on-one. Yeah. Because the context of a shared environment is like there's a time frame.

The Power Of Multiple Mentors

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Or like you talked about before, really well, the broadness of the exposure to like somebody who might be discipling you that where there's gaps. Yeah. So then you have other opportunities to say, oh, there's actually other things out there, different approaches. Yes. Uh, you know, all that. Yeah. As we go and make disciples, like it's not this linear thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

No, and I think it's just special um to learn from other people's experiences, right? Like, I don't know what it looks like to overcome like a super severe addiction.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

But maybe you developed a spiritual practice that I need to implement in order to better practice prayer or to better practice church. Like, like, what are these things in your life experience that I can gain in mind and begin following Christ better than I was before and and more fully than I was before, more submitted than you know, all these areas where I just think that there's something about programs that draws that out. Yeah. Um, I think there's something about structured teaching that draws that out, structured books series that draw that out. Um, and there I think there's also programs are great because they connect you to the life of your church. Like that's really important. Like you don't want to be apart from the bride of Christ, right? Like you want to be a part of it and you want to be doing life daily with it. Right. And so I think that's where there's kind of a crossover.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Man, that's so good. Yeah, I think of it definitely a both and and not an either or. Yes. I set that up that way because like what happens is it's really easy. Like in certain seasons of your life, you camp in one area a little bit more. But I think it's very, very um important for uh someone who's thinking about discipleship that you uh that you kind of keep a foot in both. Yeah. Because you run the risk of, you know, like you said, if you step into one, I think that can be what you know, some people call a dead-end discipleship or recycleship. Yeah, where you end up getting stuck and you're just running Christian programs over and over, and you're really not actually getting out to fulfill the great commission to lost people, you're not evangelizing, all these types of things. Yeah. But then the other side of it too, it can become it's uh almost like your own little tiny holy huddle that you just get stuck in and you're like, hey, it's just me and you, and we're gonna, you know, and we're it should never be that way, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Like, and I think if you're forming disciples correctly, they should constantly be evangelizing, right? Like, so if you're forming a disciple the right way, then the biggest thing next is that you're inviting people to church, and therefore you're now a part of program again, right? So like there should be this like cyclical moment of like me and my disciple are probably met via program, probably met in the church, probably met in some systematic space that the church created for me.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

And then we're gonna connect via the discipleship pathway. We might start doing life together, but as we're doing life, we're gonna invite other people into that path and come back and do it again with them. And so I uh it's really like this like net that catches you, and then it's like this like track that sends you back out to go fishing again. You know, like I think that there's this really cool that it's just like an organ, it's an organism, right? Like it's just constantly moving and evolving and and you want to be connected to the organism. You never want to separate, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

I like what you're saying too. Like we both agree that like there's a major portion or a major part of evangelism that sometimes doesn't get included in discipleship. The assumption is that we engage in deeper learning and we're with Christians and we become more Christian so that we can be around Christians and like we forget that. Like what what part do you like? What would you say to that as far as what evangelism plays in the pro and in discipleship?

A New Role Shaped By Formation

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Yeah, I mean, I think discipleship is designed for Christians, right? So I've I've accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. I now therefore want to become more like him. Yeah. Um evangelism is is trying to reach the lost. Yeah. Right. So I think as I'm becoming more like Christ, I'm recognizing in the gospels, Christ is constantly going out to reach the lost and and find them and reveal himself to them. Yeah. And share. And to for us, it'd be to share the gospel, right? To expose people to who Jesus is and why he's so important to submit your life to. Um and so I think discipleship without evangelism isn't it's a it's a holy huddle, right? It's like it's what you said. Um it there has to be this component of living out our faith. So it uh replace evangelism with service to the church, with service to the poor, to the needy, to the widow, to the orphan, and you have the same kind of construct of like I should be producing fruit if I'm maturing in my faith. Yeah. Right. And if I'm not, whether that be evangelism or preaching or teaching or discipling or whatever, XYZ, then I'm probably not actually being discipled. Yeah. You know, like I'm probably just hanging out with a Christian friend and we're shooting hoops. You know, like I don't, you know, like I discipleship should have this objective, right? And I think like as I formed in making disciples, like creating a plan for how I'm gonna form them has become really important. It's not just like, um, I think a lot of people make disciples, and and I fall my fall into this trap sometimes too, um, where I find someone and I just enjoy their company so much that I kind of zigzag through topics of Christianity and like neither of us are really forming. Like we're just kind of dancing around all these areas of the Bible without it having a clear direction of like, how did that make me more like Christ? Yeah, you know, or do I just know more things? Yeah. Like, did that move from my head to my heart? So I move my feet for the gospel, or did that just move to my head? Yeah. And now I'm like a super Christian, high ego, you know, like the big head. Yeah, like, and I don't want that. Like, I don't want to be a super Christian with a big head. Like, I want to be a super Christian that shares the gospel, like and makes people uh understand the love and grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. Like, like I don't I don't want discipleship to disciples to just be about knowledge. Yeah, I want it to produce this action in you that like Christ had himself or the lost, you know? So I think that there's this combo of like, it should integrate into every layer of your faithfulness to Christ, you know?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yep. That's great. Yeah, I love that. I love it. Yeah, it produces a desire on the other side for that at a minimum. Yeah. Did you um let's uh let's talk a little bit uh uh about the idea of creating barriers or building bridges. We hear this often. And so um especially as we gauge in relationships across various generations, so I'm very interested in this. Um, what do you think are some of the greatest challenges, barriers or hurdles in engaging and discipling younger generation generations as we head into the future?

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Yeah, it's super interesting. So um I'm like right on the edge of the younger generation that we're probably reaching right now, right? So like I'm I'm what's known as a zelennial. Like I bridge the gap of millennials and Gen Z. And um we just have so much access to every piece of information in the world. Um and so I think that the a barrier is uh as I talk to people in my age range or younger than me, Gen Z, um Gen Alpha, I think that there's this really interesting thing where um when I ask people in this stage what they want most from a church, yeah, they want authentic relationship because the information overload can't give them a hug. Yeah. You know, like like I can never ask ChatGPT to high-five me. Like ChatGPT is never gonna have sentiment towards me. Like, so I can ingest stuff from Chat GPT, but ChatGPT isn't forming me. Yeah. And I think that there's a generation of people wanting formation, wanting authentic relationship, wanting to be desired and feel valued and gain worth. And I understand that you should get that from Christ, but as humans, we want that from each other. Yeah. And so I want my disciple maker to encourage me.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Like I want to encourage others, you know, and so you don't get that from uh the barrier of information. And I think that is also the bridge, though. Like because authentic relationship is a desire, the bridge is figuring out what's the opportunity to actually connect with that desire. Um, because there's so many people that are hungry for this. We see this uh most naturally in like prayer. Uh so at the end of a church service, if there's an uh altar call or a prayer call or however your church does it, but a moment where you can go to the prayer team, whether it be at the front of the stage or the back of the room and engage in prayer. Most prayer team members are of an older generation, yeah, almost in every single church. Most people looking for prayer are not. Like they're they're the spread of the entire church. And so it's really like most naturally happening in prayer moments at church. I think that there's way better ways to do that though. Like uh we were talking about this earlier, but um, I think like activity matters, right? So like you're you're talking about this barrier of authentic relationship. So how do I how if I if I'm 70 years old, how do I hang out with someone that's 28?

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Like that's not naturally easy. Yeah. Um our men's ministry is doing this this weekend, they're doing like an off-roading kind of thing. Like that's the moment. Like now I just had this shared experience that I can engage with you over. We can talk about the wheels on a Jeep for an hour and a half and talk about how crazy that trail was and talk about how dangerous that that hill was and talk about uh how we got stranded or had to be towed. Like these moments of uh type two fun are what engage in like that that bridge that kind of bridges the gap between generations. And there's a million other ways, right? Like for you, it's golf. For me, it's coffee. For other people, it's it's whatever I can do to share an experience with someone that is gonna allow me to like stop thinking about my age and your age and our differences and to just talk about our similarities for that moment.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

You know? Dude, you just made me think of something. I literally, out of all the time that I've been golfing, never really thought. I was like, oh, it's just so cool that I get to hang out with these older gentlemen all the time. Yeah. Literally the thing that we bridge and that we uh that we're on, though, I picked a sport that happened to be very accessible to an older crowd. Yeah. And so um, I get the luxury and the opportunity to engage with guys for the 70s, you know, 80, 50, all quite often. And so it's kind of funny. Had I picked something else that was more like probably, you know, generated more like younger um uh grouping, then I probably wouldn't have that.

Training Residents And Building Pathways

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Yeah, if you're playing video games online, you're not hanging out with someone that's 80. Yeah, you're not, you know, like or if you're only playing chess at a local park, you're probably not hanging out with someone that's 30, you know, like and so figuring out like these multi-generational activities, right, like are just so hyper important. And understanding that like people are people, right? So it doesn't matter if someone's 25 or someone's 75, there's a shared experience of humanity that you're going through. So that 25-year-old has a family, ask about it. You know, that 75-year-old has probably produced a family, ask about it, right? Like there's shared life moments that happen that that you're gonna be able to engage in, right? And so I think a lot of people are scared sometimes to bridge generational gaps because of all of the differences. Yeah. And they never consider the similarities uh in in in conversation and in it's I think people like really say no to themselves before even making the ask. Yeah. Um it's like negotiation 101, like don't say no to the person you're negotiating. Like, just ask, you know, like just make the ask. They'll say no for you if they don't want that, right? Um I think if we can get to this place where like there's a confidence uh in authentic relationships, like I'm just desiring a relationship. I'm desiring to be transparent, desiring to be real, vulnerable. Like from an older generation to a younger generation, I think it's gonna be responded to well.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Um I've noticed younger generation generally don't reach out, right? So like that's another barrier is there's this uh loneliness uh coefficient that's increasing in this generation that's never been seen before. And so a lot of people because they've been uh just stuck on screens and online, they they are devoid from relationship, they don't even know what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah, they don't even know how to like where to start to engage in that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

And so like the bridge for the older generation, the encouragement, I'm desperate to see this. Yeah, I would like they have a unique opportunity to be extra courageous in reaching out. That's what I was gonna say. And because like the young person wants it. Yeah. They just don't know how to do it. They've never done that, like a lot of them have never ever done it.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

And they some don't they just don't know what they're missing out on too. You actually have to, that's part of the discipleship process, say, hey, I see an area that like I think I could pour into your life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

So like there's been times when I've discipled others that are just, I mean, and I don't have a huge age gap from people that I'm I'm discipling, but like there's been times when I'm like, hey, this is good for you. I'm gonna disciple you. Like you don't have a choice, you know, like this is what is gonna happen next. Okay. Like, and they and they don't know that, like they should say, they should be asking for that, they should want that, whatever. And because I've already seen them in those shared experiences from youth ministry or from serving together or from doing church together, like they know who I am, they get connected, right? Like it's not like the first time I ever see them, like, hey, you're gonna be my disciple. Like, that'd be kind of weird. But like you build a little bit of relationship, you kind of move forward from there. But you just have to be bold, like and courageous, because the worst thing they're gonna say is no, like, and that doesn't ruin your life. It was the same as yesterday. You know, yeah. Yeah. Like it's no big deal. So I think like, yeah, those are those are a couple of the bridges and barriers.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

I like that. And you um I had said uh previously when we were talking, I said something about being available. And I just used the language. I was like, oh yeah, you know, you just you just gotta be available, which I was thinking, like, man, that's profound and great. And you had a great like uh analogy for that.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Yeah, so like I look for fat people. Yeah, um and and if you guys just hear that, you're probably like, oh, that feels kind of weird. Um no, I look for fat, it stands for faithful, available, and teachable people. So like um, I break up with disciples. Like if I'm gonna disciple you and you prove to not be faithful, available, and teachable, if there's a period of time that goes by, then I'm realizing that my investment of time isn't producing the return that I want. I'm kind of like a full point.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

It's a waste, it's a waste of both of our time. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

So like I want to produce the greatest eternal return on investment that I possibly can. Therefore, I want to find fat people. I want to find faithful, available, teachable people. And so I'll let people know when I start discipling them hey, like, let's trial this out for the next few months. Let's see if we're a good match for one another. We might not be. And I'm gonna be, I'm not gonna tell them I'm looking for a fat person, right? But like I'm gonna tell them, like, hey, I have an expectation that you show up prepared. Uh so you're teachable, you're faithful, right? Like I have an expectation. Expectation that you're not late and you don't know show, right? Like things come up, so just communicate, right? I have an expectation that you communicate, right? Um, all these things because I'm making an investment into you, but that investment means I'm sacrificing time into my family, time into my marriage, time into my friends, time into myself. And and so I want that investment to multiply. Yeah. I want to see the return. Um, so I always look for faithful, available, teachable people. But um and if they're not producing, like if they're not showing up that way p over a period of time, then I'll let them know, hey, this isn't this isn't working for me. Let me connect you with this person. I think you guys might have a better relationship. That's great, dude. Um I don't ever want to like let them like fall to the wolves, but I also want to realize like we just might be at different places. Um and and that's okay. Like we that's it's it's no hard feelings. It's you know, different personalities attract each other, you know. And so it's just one of those things. But yeah, I look for for fat people, but you had a funny, you had a funny kind of saying back to back to me. I think we could make this fame. I think we can make this famous, CJ.

Programs And People Working Together

SPEAKER_00 41:08

No, we need to we need to work on it a little bit. I said we don't want to we don't want a lean person, you know, loud, ego, angry, and needy, you know, but I just was throwing out some alliteration there. Yeah, no, you um man, when you said that though, I love that availability piece because actually when I think about it, the primary thing that I look for now, and I look for the like in in every area of my life is someone who's teachable. Yeah. And so teachability goes so far because there's other elements that come out of that, but like that's in a posture, that just shows a humility, a readiness, a preparedness to receive. Yeah. And that's truly all that I want. You don't have any expectation at the end there. Like you're like, hey, it may go a bunch of different directions, but at least at this time, it's a worthy investment. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. So good. Well, so for some of the people who are on the fence um with the this uh section we're calling on the fence, uh, for someone who feels unqualified, intimidated, or just, you know, biz too busy to engage in discipleship, how would you encourage or challenge them?

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Yeah, I mean, you you hear this all the time, but you make time for things that are important to you. Oh, yeah. Um so it's in this season of my life, I got a two-year-old at home. I have a baby that's coming in two months. Uh so I'm in a really busy season. I just started a new job. It's a big job. Like, there's a lot of expectation behind it. I also have like extended family that has expectation of me. I have my immediate family that has expectation of me. Like, there's just a lot going on. And uh in this last year, it's it's kind of just been like a chaotic time. And I realized that I wasn't fully investing into the discipleship relationships that I had created. And so I started uh just including them in areas of my life that I was already gonna spend the time in. So when I work out, I include disciples into it. That's good. When I uh am gonna go on a car ride or I'm driving to work, I call disciples, right? Like, so I think that there's a lot of like availability barrier that we create in ourselves that can if we just include people in the current activities that we're already doing. So we're all gonna go drive somewhere tomorrow. We're all gonna go grocery shopping, we're all gonna go on walks or whatever it is. We're all gonna eat dinner, you know, like just include people into the activities you're already doing. And like it can become a burden sometimes, but the reward is so much greater. Yeah. I mean, it just really is. I there's never been a time where I've invited someone to go do something with me that I was already gonna do, whether they show up or not, where their presence was a bummer. Like it's always been a it's always been a privilege, it's always been a blessing. Yeah, and so like yeah, and there's been times where I'm like, I don't want to do this at all. You know, like I don't want someone else to be here because I'm naturally introverted. So like I want to do this alone. I want to work out alone. Like I don't want to work out with other people ever. Like it's terrible, you know? Like, but it's always a blessing. Like the camaraderie that's formed in that, the fun that's formed in that, the questions that get to get answered. Like, yeah, it's just uh it ends up always being better than what you make it up to be in your mind. And so I just encourage people to just do just do it. Like, yeah, yeah, and just create space. Um, make it that valuable to you. And I think the thing is like, you know, I don't ever want someone to feel guilty about uh uh doing things uh ever, but like like your faith is should be the most important thing in your life, right? Like the most valuable thing. And so if you can't make time for that, it should be revealing, right? Like if if you're too busy to do your faith, then like that should be a little bit revealing as something that you may need to be praying about. Like, hey Lord, like examine my heart in this area. Why am I so opposed to this? Yeah, why am I not able to create space? Why am I prioritizing this over this?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Um, and I think oftentimes, like at least for me, it's always a heart posture of like I'm not doing this, and it's because I chose something that was lesser than that.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

You can find the root of that. Yeah. I love that. To build on that a little bit, I I think like so. We talked all the time this time about this uh Timothy behind you, a Barnabas beside you, and a Paul beyond you, or you know, however you want to say that. And I think like that's great. And you mentioned it, and it's it's almost like this idea of seasonal discipleship. Like, whatever season you're in, there is an opportunity, regardless. So I think you can add to that actually. So be aware of those positions. You have a guy who's ahead of you in life. And so what I think is we try to find all three at once. Sometimes you run the risk of like, well, who is that? Or you know, and maybe you know a season that where you feel like, hey, I one of these I need to be doing and engaging with more than the other, or this is just a season that God has me. But I think if you just have an awareness of that, I think God will bring that to you, right? 100%. 100%. Yeah, that's good. And I put down too, I said that there's this fourth opportunity. I just heard this recently, it was the kind of one that stirred like my heart, and it was that there's a I put I called it the prodigal and proximity to you, and that's the evangelism piece. Yeah. So there's kind of this fourth arena. Um, because I think too, that creates that for me, it creates as an introvert, yeah, um, this uncomfortable um arena that we get to um share our testimony and you know, reach the lost and stuff that you just don't I don't get stuck in the recycle ship.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's such a good posture because I think oftentimes for me, evangelism isn't the focus, right? So like having that as a reminder is so important to like who am I who are we as a as a group of disciples, makers and disciples? Who are we always searching for? Um and I just challenged people the other day at uh one of our 21 days of prayer um to be inviting people, right? Like who are we inviting? Who are the who's the name on your heart that like you've been too nervous to invite? And it's such a good reminder to constantly like be thinking about who's the prodigal around you. Yeah. That is just one invitation away. Yeah. You know, and and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

That's a game changer now. You know, I mean, dude, you want to talk about some fun stuff to step into like awkward, uncomfortable, all those things, inconvenient potentially. Dude, well, on the other side of that, when you see people come up and through and uh follow Christ and then start to engage in a discipleship process. Oh, dude, that's that's like that's what it's all about. Yeah, that's the God moment for sure. Well, any other thoughts, comments, or encouragements for uh our listeners?

Evangelism As Essential Fruit

SPEAKER_03 47:11

No, I mean I think we I think we nailed it as much as we could, but like I there's so much scripture about discipleship, and there's so many things that you can do. And like there's so much information on discipleship. It is like uh the most hot button word. Yeah, the most hot button word in Christianity today. Yeah. Um I think like my encouragement would be to think thoughtfully about how you're going to form disciples. Yeah, that's good. You know discipleship's important, right? Like it's it's that's obvious. It is literally called the Great Commission in the Bible. Like this is it. You know, it's it's it's the whole playbook. Um so you know it's important, you know you're supposed to engage in it. I would encourage you to think about how you're gonna plan it, right? It shouldn't be random. It should be like, I obviously there's a relational part of it, but like, how do I teach someone core Bible? Yeah. Like, where do I get material? Like, what am I going to do when I meet this person? So you're not like me and Tim sitting across the coffee table and like, I think this is it, like staring at each other. And so I'm I'm very big in like, like come prepared for it. Like know what the end goal is so you can see if you're walking off course or if you're walking towards it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

You just challenged me. You actually gave me a um, I'm gonna say it for the podcast here. We actually normally on here, I'm always uh like really big on putting resources and you know, tools, podcasts, books, whatever you can in there, and like throwing the kitchen sink at it. Like you said, there's a plethora of information out there. But because David said it today, um, the the Great Commission, I just want to challenge you, read that verse, Matthew 28, 18 through yeah, yeah. 18 through 20. Go through uh, you know, uh go and make disciples, sit with that and uh see where God takes you. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, that's it. But just one takeaway, do that, and then then from there we can you can talk about resources and figure everything out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

There's a billion resources. You can't go wrong as long as it's faithful to the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah. So great commission, what's God calling you to? And then yeah, let's see what happens. Yeah, absolutely. That's great. That's good advice. Well, dude, thanks for your time here. Um, and thank you guys for joining us as always um on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share, and like, spread the word. And as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do to further the gospel and the world around you. Until next time, peace.