Therapy for Love | The Other 6 Days | Episode 71

Love is beautiful—and complicated. Join us for a conversation with Rachelle Roberts from Wellspring Counseling Center as we explore what it means to love well. From navigating marriage conflict and in-law dynamics to recognizing dating red flags, Rachelle brings clinical wisdom and biblical truth together. Learn how God's greater love shapes our relationships, how to move from conflict to genuine peace,  This is therapy for love—practical, grace-filled, and grounded in Scripture.

INFORMATION & RESOURCES:

• Visit https://www.swcounselingcenter.com/ or call/text (760) 200-2024 for an appointment or consultation.
• Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find--and Keep--Love by Amir Levine & Rachel Heller - (https://a.co/d/08viywPQ)
• Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection by Julie Schwartz Gottman PhD & John Gottman PhD - (https://a.co/d/0gq2llhp)

For more information or to join the conversation, head over to https://southwestchurch.com/theother6days or email us at theother6days@southwestchurch.com

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Transcript

Welcome And Series Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings and not just for them. Today I'm joined once again by Rochelle Roberts from Wellspring Counseling Center as we begin the first in a special ongoing series throughout this year where our incredible counseling professionals will bring practical professional wisdom into everyday life on various topics. We're calling this one Therapy for Love, and we're talking marriage, in-law dynamics, and dating, but most importantly, how God's vision for love should shape our life and relationships as we learn better ways to speak, forgive, and rebuild. Rochelle, thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom with us today.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Oh, thank you. It's always good to be back. So much fun. This is so much fun. I just need to do this for a living. Just do these podcasts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I think you're on to something. Well, we're gonna have you on a bunch more, so you know, you can kind of count that.

unknown 0:53

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Well, before we get to talking about love today, let's kick things off. We always like we always do a little quick game. We'll call it a red flag, green flag, or beige flag. Yeah. As the kids are saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I'll throw out a few scenarios and you tell us if it's either a deal breaker red, a good sign and green, or just uh odd or workable beige.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Um there's no right answer, so feel free to expand if needed. And who knows, we might just save somebody some future heartache right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

You ready to go? Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

All right. Um they apologize constantly.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I would say that's a red flag. And the reason this, I'm gonna explain this, is because a lot of times when a person is apologizing too quickly, they're just trying to avoid the conflict. So they're just, or they are trying to people please rather than really taking a look and gaining understanding of where the problem is, yeah is at.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

That's good. I like that. Yeah. Well, maybe not even listening, really, right? Right. Like just, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

And then what do you do? You say, yeah, you're sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Then then it really goes off.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Then you'll see where you're at.

unknown 1:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah. So I'd say red flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Okay, good. I like that. Um, I'll just agree with you because I don't know for sure. Uh they never argue.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Oh, you know what? That is a red flag for me. Okay. When a couple tells me that they're they never argue, my parents never argued. We never argue. Then I'm saying, you lost your identity then. You lost, you lost who you are. And it it uh I think that sometimes we set this up in the church, unfortunately, um, especially at uh weddings. Okay. When we do this unity candle.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Okay. Okay. So the mothers go up and they light their their child's candle. And then the pastor says, Then light your unity candle and blow out your individual candle. No, you don't lose your individuality because you're getting married. And that's where you need to have your individuality. You have a common, common uh relationship of marriage, of of love, but you still have to, and so couples that don't argue makes me think, wow, you someone is not speaking truth, someone's not being honest, or someone has lost themselves in the relationship, lost their own identity.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Wow, that's really insightful.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

So when I get in a wedding, I sit in the back and when they do that unity candle, I cringe. Oh, don't do it. Yeah, don't lose yourself.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Oh man. Um, they say, I'm just being honest a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

I'm just being honest. Okay. So the qu it it the it's kind of of of a statement to um allow for rudeness, I think. I'm just being honest. I'm just being honest. Yeah, are are you being honest or being rude?

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Um, so it's I think honesty is good. You know, we're supposed to speak truth in love. Um, but sometimes when we have a partner or someone that you know we're in trying to develop a relationship with and they're just saying, I'm just being honest. Yeah, I'm just being honest. And really we have to dig deep with um is this honesty a way for them to just be rude or psych sarcastic? Yeah. Um honesty is good. I'm not saying honesty is not good. So I'd say you must consider the um foundation of where this honesty is coming from. Yeah. Is it coming on to better the relationship or is it coming from a position of being rude or uh dismissing?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

That sounds like, yeah, you probably better language to use there, right? Like even if you're just sharing your opinion or your feelings or something like that, rather than just saying, like, because that's how you yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Interesting. Um, they avoid hard conversations.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Oh, that's a red flag. Red flag all the way. You got you you you should be having hard conversations at the beginning of your relationship. You know, we'll talk about this later, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

But we should we should be having hard and and if someone is avoiding those hard conversations, then you need to think, okay, who what are they hiding? Yeah. What is what are they not wanting you to know about them?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

That's really good. Uh they can make fun of themselves.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Oh, that's a green flag.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Green flag on the way.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

I'm big on that. That tells them they that tells you that they have confidence in who they are.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Um, having that that humor um is is actually one of one of the highest forms of intellectualism that you can have is having humor about yourself. Um, so if they are able to tease or have fun um and and have fun with themselves, then then it's a uh it's actually a sign of a lot of self-confidence.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Self-confidence.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Self-esteem.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Even self-deprecating a little bit, or is that like kind of where it draws the line?

SPEAKER_01 5:29

That's where it kind of draws a line. Okay. Um because if it's someone who is constantly uh kind of cutting cutting on themselves, then you have to kind of say, okay, you got some issues. Yeah. And then you run away from that. Okay. But if but if if they just have a sense of humor, some temperaments or personalities have a sense of humor, yeah. That a more dry sense of humor that they'll use, you know, certain comments about themselves. But if it is continual, anything that's habitual or continual, yeah, and then then you have to kind of look at it and say, you know what? Yeah, you're messed up.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Okay. That's good. Um, they say all my exes were crazy.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Oh my gosh. I you know what? On the first date, when they say all my exes were crazy, yeah, you need to really look at that. Uh, because one of two things happen. Now, Dr. David Snarch says that we are attracted to who we are. So if he says all my exes are crazy, then he's crazy. Oh, then why is he with you? And you'll be crazy too. So you gotta look at that. Or he's the crazy maker.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

So you so he could be the one that's actually making these women or these guys. I don't want to just say these guys crazy. Yeah. So you gotta take a look at that. If they say it on the first date, yeah, I don't think there should be a second date.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Oh wow, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah. Full red flag, yeah. Yeah, that's a full red flag. Because especially if they're saying, you know what, my last three girlfriends or three guy friends, uh, you know, they're just crazy. They just did, well, you know, there's something, either you're attracting that or you're creating that.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Well, and there's something to some healthy responsibility in that too, right? I mean, a little bit, right? At any level. Like that, you know, like, yeah, that just seems like a pretty like like extreme statement. Yeah, it is. Okay, good. We've got that one worked out. Um, they get defensive anytime you bring up feelings.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

That is a red flag.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Um, anytime there's defensiveness, then they're protecting a wounded part. So you gotta look at that. Um and what is good about being in a relationship is a relationship's healing. But if you're with someone that's constantly defending the wholeness of the relationship, then it's hard to to really grow that relationship. So it needs to be looked at. Yeah. It needs to be looked at.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

So red red, not beige.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

You know what?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Eric can fall depends.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

I it depends. I would say beige. Okay. Um if it's I I would be I would say that if you're in a relationship with someone like that, say, go see Rochelle. We need help. You know, that's what I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Well then actually that gets to one of ours. Uh they go to therapy or counseling.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

No, but I mean, uh if if they go to therapy or counseling, is that a red flag, green flag, or no, no, that's actually good.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Come on, man. I had that's good to start.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

First date, I'm in counseling.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, you agree.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Uh yeah. Okay. Okay, what is it? What is it? So be curious. I'm curious about what you're seeking out. You know, what's what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

I figured that would be your answer. I just was I didn't know if it was nuanced as to okay, what are you in counseling for?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Well, if they say I'm in counseling for domestic violence from the last three partners just got that of jail. I'd say you know what? That's right.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Check, please.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Check. I'll pay for this one. I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

I got you covered. Don't worry about it. Oh man. Work on yourself. Yeah. Uh they have zero close friends.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

You know what? That's neither a red flag or a green flag. Okay. Okay. It all depends on the personality. Some people um won't have close friends if they they're just really uh, you know, private people. And it doesn't make it mean that they're unhealthy.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Um I would say that you have to kind of look at the person. Some people that don't have a lot of close friends are just very secure in themselves. They think, you know, I I don't need that kind of stuff. Uh some people have their close friends or they're like their brother or their sister growing up. So so they don't have those friendships. Yeah. I think that where we have to look at um, is there any kinds of extremes in the behavior? Extreme, way too many friends. Um, I was talking to someone who wants to get married. Not one of my clients, it's a friend of mine. And her name's Rochelle.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

No. Um, and and I was telling her, I said, well, who's who are you hanging out with? And she has lots of girlfriends around her. And I said, Wow, they have to dig through all of those girlfriends to get to who you are. So, so it's sometimes we can have too many girlfriends or or guy friends or none at all. We have to look for uh am I having a healthy balance in my life? So it's neither, so it's kind of a beige thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Beige thing, yeah, yeah. And it's uh it's uh situationally dependent, probably. Right. Because yes, yeah, it's funny that you say that because that one particularly, me and my wife talk about this often. It's like we actually like to have a few really good deep friends. That's where we go to like kind of recharge, and those are the ones that you know, it's almost like a depth. And then we have like quite a few acquaintances, but we realize that where relationships fall on that spectrum, and that just kind of how it fills it up. But we don't need, we know you can't manage 150 deep relationships, like it's very difficult. That's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah. And it so I I have very significant people that are the closest to me that I know that I could call if I was in trouble, I can call them. They would fly across country to be there for me. Um, my sisters, we communicate every day. We communicate every day about some just texting or sending each other memes. We're kind of those family that we don't really say a lot, we just meme each other back and forth. Um so it's good to, when you're going on those dates or those relationships, to kind of assess who who are your closest people around you? You know, how are they close to you? Yeah, you know, what what meaningful relationships do you have?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

That's good. That's good. We're diving deep on this. I know it already. This is awesome. Okay. Um, I hope this is helpful to our listeners. Uh uh, they repair quickly after a conflict.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Oh, repairing quickly is good. Okay. That is so healthy. Um uh I teach in in with my couples is uh repairing the relationship when there's been harm. Um that is uh significant where they can repair themselves, where they can have time in their and and take a look at themselves, and this is how I'm going to to uh adjust my behavior next time, and they repair, self-soothe, and then also they repair the relationship through seeking understanding, through love languages back and forth to each other. So repairing quickly is a must for me in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

There you go, you heard it. Um they're always just joking in the relationship. They use that language. I'm just joking.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Okay. Well, so it it could be uh it could be a way for for them to take digs at you. So so you gotta really be careful with that. If they're just joking, yeah. Um I so let's say that you you find that he's always or she's always just joking when you're you know, when she's making fun of you in front of all your friends.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

That's not good. That's not healthy. Um but there are couples that have really healthy banter back and forth. That's that's good, that's fine. But knowing when to stop and knowing when it crosses the line of being inappropriate um and hurtful.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah, situational awareness, maybe all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

And there's usually one partner that's better at the banter than the other. And that's where that one partner that's better, yeah, they need to really, you know, rein it in a little bit because it can become hurtful, especially if they come from a family that that banter uh was a part of the their affection, they're how they showed each other love.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And then maybe your spouse or your partner did not come from that, and it can go a whole yeah, it can go real wrong real quick.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Um, two more, they say, I don't need anything, and pride themselves in being low maintenance.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Okay. Um, it depends on what they mean. I don't need anything. Um, but however, a person that's that's low maintenance or uh they usually are self-sufficient. Um so kind of taking a look at what do they mean? So digging into that. Got it. And what do you what do you mean by low maintenance? What do you mean by um uh because it could be when they saying low maintenance, maintenance, and then you notice that they haven't bathed in a couple weeks, you can think that's not low maintenance, that's low self-esteem. You gotta work on that, friend, uh, with someone else, not me. Um so you gotta really take a look at that. But it's okay to be low maintenance and and not really need anything.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yeah, you're secure, you don't need a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah, right. You learn to be content. That's as what the Apostle Paul said.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

There you go. I like it. Um, last one, they vent to their family about your disagreements and say, My family's just really close.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Nope. Nope. We're not gonna do that. Because uh the the issue comes is that you and your partner move on and you're all good, but the family never forgets what you vented to them about. So they never forget, you know, he said this to me, you know, she said this. Um so venting to family members, I I I don't think that is ever healthy.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Ever healthy.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Tell it to Jesus. That's what I say.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

There you go. I like that. I'm gonna say instead of the body keeps the score, the family keeps the score.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

That would be a great book, CJ.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

That would be a great book. The family keeps the score.

Foundation Of Love Grounded In God

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Um All right, before we dive into some of the uh practical stuff on the topic of love, like marriage, family, dating, all that stuff. I think we should start by building the conversation on a foundation. Uh, what would you say is probably the most important start um uh for building that solid foundation? Wow. Um like you know, the big like, man, you gotta have this. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

You gotta have this.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

This, yeah. Like what where where where does that where does that start out for you in a healthy, healthy foundation?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Well, I think it c comes out of a desire to understand the partner's needs. Because we can't we come from from a society that says uh um that I need to get what I I I want out of relationship. So but really as Christians, it shouldn't not come from that what can I get? It should come from what can I give.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

So that is because that's real love. That's the highest level of love. What can I give into this relationship? Not what can I get? So if you start your relationship on that foundation, you're gonna have much more peace and joy. Uh not necessarily happiness, because happiness is is conditional based upon happenings or yeah. But having that uh continued uh uh seeking out the best for your partner.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah. So where does that start at? Like what where would you say um that you'd advise like how can you uh because you can't really give something that you haven't received yourself. So where do we build the initial like how do I get to that mindset or that well and and and that's why I tell tell my clients there cannot be a we if there's no me.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

You have to work on yourself. Got it. Or what you do is you attract someone just as completely dysfunctional as you, and then you're wondering how come we are messed up here? Our children, our kids are messed up, everybody's dysfunction. The dog is even messed up, the cat, and and and you think, what's the problem? It's because we haven't worked on ourselves. And where it comes from is I I truly believe is having a secure relationship with God.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

That's not based upon works, but it's based upon his love and that love relationship.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

And so it has to be based on there.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

That's so good. Yeah, because you can't, if you don't understand God's love, we what we're perpetuating or what we're exhibiting or what we're we're peddling really is misguided or broken to some level because like it's not a true love that comes from God, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Right, right. Yeah well, and and that's where we have um our distortions of God can greatly affect our relationship with others and even our our partner relationships, our marriage relationships.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Because we'll we'll have a relationship with God that says, I am uh bound by the law. That comes to saying, if I do this, God will love me. So what do you do? You become a partner or a person that says you have to jump through these hoops in order for me to love you. And that's not the love of God. And then we can go to the other extreme and saying, well, God's grace. So we have this experience of God's grace covers all. So he's out catting around the neighborhood, acting like a, you know what? And and she says, I just have such grace and just being good. No, no, no, no, no. So there has to, you can't have the the two extremes because the apostle Paul addressed this. It says, Should we go on sinning just because God's grace is covering that? No, he says, God forbid. No. So so we have to, so we have to kind of take a look at what is my view of God and how do I filter that into my relationship? And do I need to have a balanced view? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Oh, that's so good. Yeah, because I I've noticed otherwise you're always kind of um you're you had the way that you love, you're just exposing them to either your search your circumstances or your situation, your family of origin, how you give and receive love was based off of situational. And so, like if you don't have that deep identity in Christ, like that's right. Where do you I have there's nothing in the well to give from, you know, other than things that might we're probably inherently broken to some degree.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Oh yeah. We we definitely are broken. And this is where it makes it because at the counseling center, we do see persons that are are not Christian. They they do not have faith. They they they um many of them humanistic or or whatever they're and we we we treat them with the understanding. We know that there's limitations of what we can do because they are not in the full knowledge of Jesus Christ. So they're constantly searching for that missing piece. And they think it's in a relationship, they think it's in drugs or alcohol or working harder or gaining more toys, whatever it is. And so what we teach them is coping skills.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Got it. That's what I'm gonna say. I was gonna ask you about the people who are not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

No, God didn't say, I come that you may cope with life. No, he says, I come that you may have life to the fullest. Yeah, and and so what we have to do is we have to approach it there with always in the the back of our heart and our prayer is that someday they will say, Why are you so content? Yeah, oh, I'm glad you asked that. Let me show you. And and we have had, I'm just gonna get a little side note. Yeah, we've had people come to the Lord in our counseling rooms, and uh it is such an amazing thing how it transforms because then we can start bringing the word of God in.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Now we go deep, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

We can go deep the way that God intended all along that that wholeness.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Oh, that's so good. Oh, and that's that's your dream, really. And being able to bring in the community and all those other elements that that eventually they'll get to that point.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

And you can share the gospel. Yeah, can I pray for you?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

And you know, have the it's just being it's being Jesus in the room. Yeah. And many times it's just that silence pres presence of just being there. And eventually they always become curious about you. How come? Yeah, how come you just, you know, are you what's your story?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

And I love when they ask that. They say, let uh and and it's it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Oh it's okay. Let me give you some band-aids and balm while I'm patient and you know, then we'll I'll give you coping. Coping, yeah, there you go. Uh, what would you say is probably one of the most common misunderstandings people have about love, like initially? Like, do you think there's like a is there like a common denominator out there?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Um like a feeling or just yeah, well, uh, because uh I uh Well, love is more than a feeling, yeah, according to that song. Yeah. Um so what we get into a relationship, the the beginning of a relationship is always based upon the feel goods. He makes me feel this way. He makes me feel and where we make the mistake is we believe that is love. That's not love. Love does it love, um there will be feelings, um, but it is not uh um a sign of love. It's just a sign. That your body is reacting to love bombing. Okay. Um so what we have to be aware of is defining love of how we feel. Persons that fall into trouble in their relationships is when they're associating, I I don't feel in love with my partner anymore. Well, you know what? Many people don't, but they stay and they commit because it was uh um a commitment that they made before God. Um and then they say, but this, you know, my secretary, oh boy, I feel something for her. And then it goes down a path of um detriment in the relationship. So I I think that um and and what it makes it really difficult is uh the world view of love is very emotion-centered, feeling centered, yeah, rather than uh commitment. I love you because my love is good for you.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

That's totally different. That's what Christ's love is.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Counterin, yeah, totally counterintuitive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah. So we have we have I don't love you because you make me feel good. I love you because my love is good for you.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah. Well, you got to the the core of it, is that the other way you're looking at how it serves you, right? Whether it's self-serving, the experience, the thing I'm lacking that I'm not getting, and all of those types of things. So you you just say like it's just not there anymore. And those emotions are so strong.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

You know, people feel like, well, if it's not there, I'm just sticking it out like contractually, you know, like this is just an obligation. It's almost like a business deal.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, yeah. And that's that that's where I call them the zombie relationships, where they become the walking dead, is to where they no longer feel for each other. They no longer they just exist until some, yeah, something one of them dies.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

And and that is not uh a picture of Christ in the church. No, we don't have a relationship with with Jesus just as a zombie. No, we are vibrantly committed to the gospel, to proclaiming this love. And that's the way a marriage should be. So when we are basing it just on feelings, saying, Well, I don't feel God's love, no, there's gonna be moments in our life we don't feel God's love. There's gonna be moments in our life we don't feel our partner's love, but it does not mean that we don't love each other, it just means that we don't feel each other.

Feelings Versus Commitment

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah. Wow, that's good. That's really good. Man, you were just oh my gosh, so many thoughts. But I was just thinking, like, if you uh it's as you know, they'll know that you're my disciples by your for love for one another. And that can either be by from an outside perspective of how that person loves in light of the love that is not, you know what I mean, the exchange that's happening there, but also too, the love, joy, peace, patience, and all the things, the fullness, the joy, and that you know that you might have life and have it to the full is expressed in that. So you have different ways that that can show up. But if we're claimed to be Christ followers, yeah, there should be evidence of that in our lives together, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yes, that's why when couples come in and they're fighting like dogs, yeah. I mean, just getting after each other. And they say, I say, Well, why are you guys together? Yeah, because we love each other. No, you don't let me tell you. First Corinthians 13. Take it down. Where have you what do you like here? And they go, we don't act like that. No, you're right. Yeah, then you're not acting in love. Yeah, you know, so what you're saying is that I'm feeling for we feel for each other. Yeah, we don't love each other. Yeah, we have to go, we have to take it to a next level of of what Christ said.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Um, he said, You will know that that you're Christians by your love. Yeah, yes, you will know that you are followers of Christ, an example of Christ in the church by your love. That's so it's a bigger, we gotta we gotta take it up a notch.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And you gotta drop that in always that like, hey, love, love's not a feeling, it's a choice, but it's it's sacrificial. It is it's always it's always other centric, and it's always always giving, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Oh man, it and and that's where um when I meet with couples and they're saying, Well, you know, she's not meeting my needs. Yeah, you know what? Get on the cross and crucify the flesh, serve, wash her feet as Christ did the disciples. It takes you first because you are to be Christ to her. So that you know, so you so when they say they're not, let me give you the list of the the needs I'm not getting met, yeah. You know what? Throw it in the shredder because we're not going there. It's gonna be you're gonna, you're gonna get on the cross first, and we're gonna watch the flesh be crucified. And and both of them, because we we we both need to.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Well, and it'll change your mindset. I I practice this every now and again, uh, and it's you know, just kind of a mental thing that I do. Um, but I uh I'm I think about I'm like, man, if my wife never met my needs in any of the ways that you know she currently does, you know, relationally, like even just our friendship, I said, would I still show up the same way for her going forward if something catastrophic? And you know, that's kind of a little, you know, there's some darkness in there. But I but I think though, hey, uh and that's a challenge to me though. I'm like, where that's kind of uh it sets a barometer for where a relationship's at for me for a healthy level to say, am I showing up the way Christ shows up, regardless of how if it's reciprocated to me. That's right. And that's a very it's it's tough. You know, I don't dwell in that, but I do go, okay, man, where am I where am I moving?

SPEAKER_01 27:22

It's it's important because there's a reason why the Apostle Paul, Peter, both addressed and said, husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church. Love them. And and it's because and then it says, Wives, respect your husband, submit to your husband as unto the Lord. That that that's a healthy relationship. And there's a reason why men were addressed saying, love your wives. Because men can be transactional.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

It's all about the business. Yep, it's all about the transaction, and we can easily default to transaction and overlook that. Wow, we gotta get on the cross and crucify ourselves. I'm glad I thought you were gonna say that you have a cross in your background backyard. Oh, and that you get up there and say, I gotta crucify my own.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

You're like we might want to cut the portion of the therapy.

unknown 28:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Hey, remember that's what I'm here. I know it.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

This is free therapy.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I have to be careful. Yeah, I'm like But also every everyone's listening to my therapy session, so this isn't it good. Yeah, it's one of those.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

It's good for you. So cathartic.

Conflict As A Path To Intimacy

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Whatever they can do, you know, by any and all means, that some might come to no cries. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um well, so marriage uh often presents some of the greatest opportunities to practice love. We could obviously spend a couple episodes exploring this. We spent a year exploring that. Um, but I think conflict is probably one of the most common topics that you know couples are struggling to navigate well. So, where would you start as a helpful framework for spouses navigating conflict? Like just as a like, man, we're having a tough go. Like, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Well, it um first of all, they need to acknowledge that conflict is not necessarily bad. Conflict means that there are you guys have two different minds, you have two different coming from two different perspectives in life. So conflict isn't bad. Where it comes to a bad thing in marriage is when conflict is ignored or not addressed. And um, I use this example with my couples that they'll go for years without dealing with a conflict, and so they'll have something to be brought up and they won't deal with it, and they just put it on their shelf. And so each one is stacking their shelf with all this conflict, and eventually it comes down on them. And um, so conflict left unresolved causes resentment.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

But conflict resolved creates intimacy, creates greater understanding. So knowing that if I'm having conflict, this is an opportunity for me to really know my partner.

unknown 29:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

And coming from that perspective.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Man, that's so good. I love the way you nuance that and like turned it around into like because uh, you know, a lot of people see those things kind of happening, um, easily, you know, identify hey, there's conflict happening in a relationship, so we must be drifting apart, or something might, you know, or we're we're not the same person, you know, kind of buy into those lies and kind of tropes. Um, that is such a healthy.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Well, when we we use the example of of Jesus, did Jesus have conflict? Yeah, there were some things that he addressed with people constantly. Yeah, he dressed, he addressed that because he says, I love you so much. I want to know who you are. And I just like the woman at the well. Yeah, it was uh a conflict that he was willing to say, I love you. That's why I'm here. Yeah, and and I want to know you. And what happened is she she got to know him in that conflict. Yeah, that to where she became an evangelist, went out and told the city that come see this man, come see this man. So it's an opportunity for God to be revealed in your relationship. Yeah. That's good stuff. Write that down, Rochelle.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yeah, because she was even being kind of snarky in it a little bit, and you know, all the things. She was and Jesus walked patiently with her.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah. I identify with her little snarkiness. I, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah. I I'm afraid Jesus and I would have probably met at the well.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

You don't have anything to draw water from this well. Yes. What are you gonna do? Yeah. That's funny. I love that. So, kind of speaking to that same thing, what's the difference then between conflict resolution and restorative conversation?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Is that does that fall into that same well um really they should they should go together.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

So conflict resolution is gonna have a corrective action plan.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

So it's gonna say, okay, this is where the violation happened, and this is what uh we need to do to correct it.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Restorative um conversations are ones of um, you know, I want to understand this. Okay. I want to, I want to know how um where this hurt came from because I want to know you better. So it's it's gonna be uh you're gonna have a corrective action plan. So you're gonna always say cap it off with a correction action plan. But then also make sure you take time saying, I want to understand you. Why did this hurt so much? Why, you know, um and and really being I call Sherlock Holmes to them. Um why did this hurt you so much? Um, you know, how can I be here for you right now? So it's not correcting anything, it's just being with them at that moment. So that's restoring the relationship. Anytime you do a relationship repair when there's been a conflict, yeah, it means your greater depth of intimacy has occurred. That's good. And that's so it's not just about finding the corrective action plan. You have to repair the relationship and that restores it.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah. Oh gosh, that's so good. Such a such a deeper um trajectory than just that uh the then resolution, because the resolution is kind of almost like identifying the empath and figuring out how do we even just continue. Yeah. Almost like, and then this is just going beyond that into like you said, deeper intimacy through restoration.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah, like I mean, that's right. Wow. Because we we we have to know the feeling. We have to be moved by their feeling.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And that's like Jesus. Jesus was moved with compassion. And that's so the relationship repair comes through through the knowing how they feel. Saying, tell me how you feel.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

And and that, um, and and and tell me how I can help with this. How can I pour uh oil into this wound?

unknown 33:45

Wow, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

It's just so multifaceted because like, you know, it has to start with a recognition of offense, right? Like that there was an offense, you know, so it's an acknowledgement. Yes, yes. But to move beyond that to greater depth requires for you know this kind of further thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

And and it takes effort because most couples will stop at the doing the corrective action plan, saying, okay, good. Yeah, you know, and he'll he'll say, I'm glad this is over with, I can get back to the game.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

That's what I was thinking.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

She can't go on forever, she'll stop eventually. Um but then he he never really knows his wife.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

He just knows her as a person that I resolve a conflict with, create a corrective action plan so I can move on to what I really want to do or what she really wants to do, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Um so uh seeking out the repair is the extra work that creates the intimacy in the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah. Wow, that's so good. Wow. Um how what are some tips maybe just off of that that how uh couples might be able to fight fair without um like doing lasting damage there?

Fighting Fair And The Four Horsemen

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Oh yeah, fighting fair. That's that's one of the things I I I think is so fun to teach couples. Uh most couples don't fight fair.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

They hit below the belt every time. Uh they they they they start with you know sarcastic remarks. Um uh Dr. Uh Gottman, he um did a study that I think everyone should should look into. Um it's called the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse of Marriage. And he uh studied couples, um he and his wife, Julie, they stu uh they studied couples, and they were able to prove predict divorce by 90 percent. Whoa by just observing how they re that how they maneuver through conflict. And they were able to to identify four the four horsemen that led to this divorce. And one of them was defensivism. So when they're defensive about the conflict, you know, they um are already they're um they're justifying their yeah, they're making excuses, well, you know, this, you know, or or saying, but you do this, and yeah, you know, then they're on separate teams. And when you're on a separate team, that's the 49ers and the Seahawks living in the same house, they're never gonna get along, never. And so um the defensiveness was one key factor. The second thing was criticism. So when we are fighting and we're using criticism, we need to be careful. If we're defensive and we're critic critical of our partner, that's one of the four horsemen.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

So we have to be careful. We should speak truth in love, yeah, not in criticism.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

So we have to make sure, and I say use the back door when you're when you're instead of kicking the door open with a crit critical remark, yeah, knock on the back door and say, Hey, I'd love to talk to you about this incident that happened. And when is a good time? Then it puts you both at at a place of peace. And then um the third one is contempt or mocking. Yeah, you know, she's all in there to me. You know, or or they even bring the kids in. Yeah. See on your mother is. You know, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

That's mocking, that's that's contempt. Contempt is actually um uh the Gottmans were able to study that a contempt in a relationship will actually cause physical ill illnesses in the person who's receiving those that contempt in their relationship. Oh wow. Um so contempt can be very detrimental. And then the last one was stonewalling. So when couples fight, they stonewall, which is they give the silent treatment. And that's where most men are great stonewallers.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Disengage, man.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

They just to get they just sit there and say, you know what, she'll shut up eventually. I'm just gonna not say anything. Because if I say something, it's gonna make it worse. Um, and so those four things. So when you're in an argument, yeah, be aware of those four things. Four things and saying, are we defensive? Are we on the playing on the same team? Am I being critical? Or am I are am I speaking truth in love? Um, am I using contempt and am I stonewalling?

SPEAKER_00 38:00

That's great. Wow. Yeah, I think often in that we're usually looking for like these positive tools to enhance the relationship, which those are positive, but it's by looking at the negative things we're bringing into our conflict. Yes, yeah, yeah. That's really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

So just being aware of that, yeah. Then it then we can change it. We can say, Oh, you know what? I noticed I'm getting defensive here. So I need to be on your team. We're on the same team. We play on the Seahawks because they're champions. Yeah. So we're champions. We're gonna do that.

In‑Law Dynamics And Leave‑And‑Cleave

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yeah, even though I'm just tone approach it. I love it. Well, uh, let's talk about one of the most delicate relationship dynamics, in-laws. Again, we could spend hours here, um, but the story of Naomi and Ruth gives us this beautiful picture of in-law harmony. Uh, what can modern couples learn from their relationships?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Wow. In-laws is one of the top five reasons couples divorce. Oh, wow. Yeah. In-law, in-law conflict. Um, and I think that what I love about the story of Naomi and Ruth is that Ruth was very honoring of Naomi's position. Now, now Naomi, she was having a little bit of a bad attitude because she says, Don't call me Naomi, call me bitter. Well, how how how fun would it be to live with a woman who says, Call me now, Mara, I'm bitter. But but Ruth was able to serve in love.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

She was able to say, you know what, I'm honoring you because I I love you for just the position that you've had in my husband's life or or my wife's life, that I'm gonna honor that. Okay. Um where the conflict comes is when uh there isn't the leave and cleave portion in the relationship. Uh and I've seen this happen um to where uh they'll get married, um, and she still, you know, talks to mom about stuff, problems, and he uh prefers his mom over like one one example is is this new new newly married couple. They're they're so cute, newly married couple, and um she she wanted to fix him his favorite meal, which was tacos, yeah. You know, tacos. And so he came home Friday night, she fixed him tacos, and you know, they she was so excited. He sat down and he was eating those tacos. He says, Oh, these are good. My mom makes the best tacos ever. And that hit it off. I mean, she was not happy, tacos flew, yeah, because of course they didn't have good coping skills with things. Um, but that's where you got uh so he had a problem with leaving and cleaving. So he even though he made, you know, his mom made better tacos, that's that's great. But speaking it out was not actually embracing her effort to love him where he was at. So um, so when we have uh when we are allowing our family of origin to supersede our partners uh the relationship with our partner, that's when we need to be careful.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

That's where bitterness and wrath, and that's where those family fights come in. That um it it it it goes really bad.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Oh, that the families don't forget too they keep the score. All the I mean there's so many layers to that.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, they they keep the score, and sometimes, unfortunately, yeah, um mom-in-laws are great at keeping the score.

SPEAKER_03 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Um and and if and if you know you're you're a Christian mom-in-law, I I try to be the best mom-in-law I can be, um, is to allow them to create their own roots, which means stop sticking your hand inside the relationship and pulling it up from the root. Let them to establish themselves, give them space, give them oxygen to breathe and to establish a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

It's so funny you say that because that was probably one of the biggest hurdles. And I didn't recognize it at first, but I didn't know I was a mama's boy. And then I come to find out. When I was in the Oh, here we go. I knew that was coming. Um, but uh I yeah, I went, you know, I just had a deep relationship with my mom, very close with my parents and stuff. And so that for me was naturally just brought into the marriage, which, you know, and then uh we started using this term got thrown around called uh we need you to cut the cord.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

And so that's what, and I was like, and it was so like shocking and so like just off-putting, and I was so frustrated by it, and it caused a lot of frustration. But my mom was so mature and so awesome, very hurt at the beginning, but let go, let us establish our roots and gave space and did all of that, you know, and it took a little, there was some navigation there, it took some time. Um, but in the end, the fruitfulness that came out of that as he she allowed uh the opportunity for my wife to come around to see my mom's place in our life and watch her back off and you know, all of those things and us to establish a really healthier, healthier relationship.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

It it literally has set us up for success.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

That's right. And and that's what a um a mom-in-law knowing when to back off, to just say, I'm gonna let you guys establish your roots. Yeah, I'm gonna let and uh and a lot of times moms feel like you know, I'm losing my my babies. I'm not no, you're not. We don't lose relationships. We choose to disconnect. We lose keys, we lose our car in the parking lot. I'm constantly losing my car at Walmart. Constantly. We lose things, we don't lose people, we choose to disconnect. So moms, be okay just saying, I I'm not losing them. Yeah, I'm I'm I am just allowing them space to grow. Yeah, they need to know how to grow. Yeah, and and I don't need to have my hands in it.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, baby birds gotta leave the nest, sometimes they've gotta leave. So um, so on to uh dating. Um we live in a culture that tells us that we need to find the one who completes us. But what does it mean to look at to God for completeness instead of looking In a in a relationship to complete you.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

You know what? When when when they say I I'm I'm with my better half, stop. Stop it. You're not with your better half. You're a whole person. When you are in Christ, you're a whole person. Um when they are try seeking out someone to complete them, they're saying that the conditions of this world will satisfy me.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

That's heavy.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

That is.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

When that's not our that's that should never never be our focus. Our the world here is is temporary. Yeah. So when we're looking for a partner to complete us, we're missing God's perfect plan for us. He's saying, I'm here to complete. And and then we have to go all the way back to the original, the the sin, the original fall. Woman, your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. So constantly she's saying, I gotta get a man, I gotta get a man. And then he they get uh married, and then she's saying, Oh, give me all of your emotions, I need all your time. And they they feel this need to feel that emotional hole. When really, if we know that that was the curse of sin, yeah, then that tells me that before sin came in the world, that woman's desire would be for God and He would rule over her. Yeah. Wow, that's powerful. Yeah, and that's the way so if we are seeking out to have completeness in this world in another relationship, we're failing in finding what true completeness is, which is in Christ.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

A misdirected idea for completion places a burden on them they were never designed to carry.

Dating, Completion Myths, And Identity

SPEAKER_01 45:51

That's right. That's right. God was designed to carry it. That was his plan all along.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

That's why the uh in the world they're constantly going from relationship to relationship when really they need Jesus. And and and and then with men, you know, uh I always get suspicious when a man is saying, you know, I need a woman to complete me. Grow up, be a man. You know, uh is that his a lot of times men will dive into their work as being their identity and their completeness. Um so the problem with that is is is the same thing. Men will get it in in enveloped in their work to complete them when really God needs to complete them and be their wholeness.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

That's so good. We uh, and you'll probably correct me on this one, or you can tell me, you know, where I'm at on the how much therapy I need to continue to go get. But um, I always tell uh I to when I talk to my wife Kelly, I always tell her, um, I and I felt like it was a healthy place to say, Hey, I I don't um because I was you know pretty dependent on her to fulfill some of the things in my life, you know, and you know, I put a lot on her. Um, and I just said, Hey, I I want to get to a place where I want you and I want to be a part of you. I don't need you. You know what I mean in my life? Like you're not, you don't complete me. You're not the, you know, and the covenant that we made before God, yes, to become one and all those things, and I'm for you in every sense of the fashion. I said, but I want to be excited about the way that we engage in life and the things we pursue and how I champion you and support you and do all of that. I don't want to go, I'm all of a sudden panicked over this need that I have this void that you fill in my life because then I'm like looking at my relationship with God and going, oh shoot, I put something on somebody that we're designed to carry.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

That's right. And that's where it it comes in is uh creating those those um individuality, that individual self with the common uh interest of marriage of that marriage relationship. We have more to offer a relationship when we are fully ourselves in God. Then we have stuff to talk about. Yeah, man, we said what is God doing in your life? Oh, and then it's exciting. Yes, it's exciting. Yeah, um, and then we're not uh uh as well as is is this. Um I think that a healthy relationship, you gotta give it a little oxygen.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

If we're if we're too enmeshed, that the it we're we're snuffing out the fire. We gotta have it. It gives you something when you come home from work and you say, Wow, you know what? This is what I did today. I had therapy with Shell, and thousands and thousands of people are gonna see and I dumped out all my stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Don't listen to that episode. Don't listen to it. Actually, it's really cool. You'll be so excited. I worked out some things.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

But it it gives us something to to bring to the relationship that actually helps them grow and helps you grow. And and that's way the the relationship are they should never be our everything.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

When when a couple comes in and says, she's my everything, I go, ooh, we'll touch on it. Sweetheart, you need to step out because I need to talk to him.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

We uh and uh practically it would too with uh friendships is one too that I hear from like a lot of guys, you know, that in that suffocation piece and stuff where it's like, hey, where are you going? What are you doing? You know, and there's uh there can be an extreme version of, you know, whatever they're trying to do, avoidance, escapism, all those types of things. But having other friends, uh uh like, you know, where she has her friends and I'm champing her developing friends, you know, deeper friendships. That was really hard for me for a long time. But now I realize there's a turn in our relationship when I'm like, you know, hey, I'm so excited for when she starts to develop deeper friendships because I know how they meet needs that I actually can't meet in, you know, and wasn't designed to meet in that way. And her the same for me. Hey, go golfing with your friends. It's so fun for you to get out and go do some stuff. So charitable.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

And I'm like, you know how refreshing that is? Like, and you all of a sudden you come back restored and ready to engage in such a different way.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Yeah, because a healthy relationship is going to exhibit the freedom of Christ. Yeah, it's gonna exhibit that daily, saying, Yeah, go out with be with people. Yeah. Because being with people helps you be a better person.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

And and then you come together excited, refreshed. You're ex excited to see each other because you're not, you know, hurt all and you know, uh the opposite. Um so that's where that's where the freedom of Christ starts to ignite the relationship. You say you're free to be you in Christ. I'm free to be me in Christ.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

And you know where we found even a sweeter, deeper one that I never even knew existed, and I should have known better as a pastor at a church. When you start sharing the gospel with those groups that you're that you're out with, and you watch your wife do the same with other women, and people start coming to Christ as you develop other relationships through those that are not within the context of the two of you only doing life together. Yeah, then you really see some like now there's some stories to share.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Yes. Isn't that powerful? Because that is what it the Apostle Paul was talking about, Jesus Christ in the church. Yeah. What do we do as the church? Jesus Christ and church, we multiply.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Multiply. Oh. We multiply. Oh, you got me teary out on man. I can't believe that. I didn't know that was gonna happen. I thought I was good. Anyway, well, Rochelle, as always, we hope our conversations are engaging and helpful. Uh, any books, podcasts, or other resources that you want to point people to?

SPEAKER_01 51:19

You know what? Um, I think that what is a good book is attached by Levine, uh, Dr. Levine and and Heller, I think it is.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Um, and attached is how uh it's how our childhood attachments actually grow up into adult attachments, and it can cause an anxious and voided attachment or uh an anxious attachment, or we can have a secure attachment. And it can even affect what I'm looking at now, our relationship with God. Do can we have an anxious attachment with God? Can we have an avoidant attachment with God? Are we in a secure attachment with God? And looking at people in the Bible that actually well, um, what one of them is Jonah.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Oh man, he he was avoiding, he was at an avoidant attachment. I'm gonna run. Yeah. Until our God says, No, you're not gonna run anymore. Um, so that attach is a good one. And then also uh Gottman, they have a great book out. Um I think it's called Fight Fair. Okay, yeah, fight fair.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

And it is really good. I I like it, it gives uh some of the principles I was given out today of how to fight fair. It goes into the four horsemen of the apocalypse of marriage. So it's good.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

So good. Well, we'll include those links in the show notes if you guys want to check those out, which I would definitely recommend because Rochelle does. So um Rochelle, any final thoughts or takeaways for our listeners about love?

Freedom, Friendship, And Shared Mission

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Realizing this um, to love best is to make yourself less. Oh okay. And that is the key to saying, okay, I it and that's where Jesus was great at. He says, I'm going to crucify me so you can know how much I love you. And yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

That's good. That's a good takeaway. Well, Rochelle, thank you for your ministry and for gifting us with your time and expertise, as always. Hopefully, our listeners are now better resourced and equipped on their journey toward loving God and others well. So there you have it, guys. Uh, thanks again for joining us on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share, and like. And as always, spread the word and take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do to further the gospel and the world around you. Until next time.