Work and Class episode 1: social mobility in the workplace – mentoring

In this, our inaugural episode of Work and Class - our social mobility series spotlighting initiatives that can really make a difference to social mobility in the workspace – we discuss mentoring. Our host Sophie Jamieson is joined Nick Eziefula, a lawyer at Simkins LLP, Anthony Achille, programme manager at Abbey Road Studios and our very own Cliff Fluet, a tireless advocate for mentoring.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the very first episode of Work and Class, Lewis Silkin's social mobility podcast. I'm Sophie Jamieson. I'm an employment lawyer and I co-lead our internal social mobility group here at Lewis Silkin. In this podcast series, we're going to focus on the initiatives that can really make a difference to social mobility in the workplace. In this opening episode, we're starting with mentoring, the art of turning back as you climb the ladder of work and helping someone else up a few rungs rather than pulling the ladder back up behind you. 

To explore this subject, we sat around the table with three guests who shared their own insights and experiences of mentoring. Firstly, we had Cliff Fluet, a partner at Lewis Silkin and an absolutely tireless mentor to many, many people throughout his career. Something that's been recognized in his recent nomination for mentor of the year in the upcoming UK Social Mobility Awards, which is also a good moment to mention that Lewis Silkin is also nominated for Organisation of the Year at the same awards, something that we're very, very excited about. And joining Cliff on the episode, we had two of his mentees. Firstly, Nick Eziefula, who is a lawyer and partner at Simkins LLP. And secondly, Anthony Achille, who's program manager at Abbey Road Studios. 

Stellar guests with fantastic stories to tell that I hope you enjoy listening to as much as I did. 

Sophie Jamieson (01:49) 

Cliff, as someone who's been a mentor to many, but to start with your own experience, is there anyone you'd say who's been a particularly influential mentor to you? 

Cliff Fluet (02:01) 

Yeah, I have a couple. mean, I think the first bit of feedback I ever got. I can remember it so clearly. I can even remember ⁓ what the weather was like. I was in the playground at the age of 11 and a Hungarian South African home ec teacher came up to me and said, you know, they talk about you in the staff room. You could go all the way. Aim high. All she said. Two words. 

Cliff Fluet (02:32) 

I can literally feel the sort of ground beneath my feet moving when I had those two words said to me. So that's the first bit of mentoring I ever received. ⁓ It was almost permission and the idea that other people were talking about me and I just genuinely hadn't understood. What I can look back was my god there might be one who could actually break out and achieve something but I had no idea. So two words changed my life 

⁓ Then I had an extraordinary English teacher, if anyone's seen the film Dead Poets Society, this guy changed my life, Mr. Ellis, who taught me the world of semiotics and science and Jungian and Freudian theory and all the things you shouldn't be talking to 12 year olds about. And he was quite extraordinary. And then from a career perspective, my first boss in the music industry. 

was actually one of the first ever lawyers ⁓ focusing on what we call business affairs, Warner Music. And he turned from my boss to very much a mentor. We would take tea every day and he would just tell me about stuff. And I realized by the end of that one hour tea, I'd learned an extraordinary amount about how the business fits together. And he's still very much, it's a chap by the name of Fran Neverekler, who's a fair legend in the world. 

⁓ in what we do, that's like being taught by Yoda. And ⁓ he to this day still sort of acts as a mentor for me. And now I'm hilariously a mentor to his son. So shows how it goes. 

Sophie Jamieson (04:09) 

And Nick, Cliff, it sounds like found mentors on the way, maybe without even knowing that they were mentors or calling it that at the time. But I think your journey to becoming a mentee of Cliff was maybe a bit more planned. Do want to tell us a bit about how that came about? 

Nick Eziefula (04:28) 

Yeah, sure. It's quite a long time ago. So I'm doing my best to try and reflect it accurately. But what I recall is that while I was a trainee, was approached by an organization that finds mentors. I can't even remember the name of it. And I feel bad about this. I'm very grateful to them. But they said, you want to find a mentor? And I said, this would be great. And they showed me a list of different people. And I said, who's that guy? And I was just stunned to see that there was a senior lawyer in the field that I work in, was aspiring to get into more, who was also black and I could relate to him in that way as well. So I must meet this man. And so we were connected through that. And Cliff has been mentoring me ever since. I'm trying to think that's probably about 20 years. 

Cliff Fluet (05:15) 

It's approaching 20 years. But I think what's important to add to that was that when Nick reached out to me and I remember it so clearly, I can remember where we sat then, he said, will you be a mentor to me? And I at no point had it occurred that I could or even should be a mentor. And I did the mental maths on it. I can't see any reason why not to do this. 

Cliff Fluet (05:45) 

Before Nick had asked me that, to my shame, or maybe I was just ignorant, I just had never occurred to me to be a mentor or what that involved. So again, that's just an example about how mentees can change your life as much as a mentor might be able to do that. If Nick hadn't asked me to do that, perhaps I might have stumbled into it eventually as well. But it gave me permission and understanding that I might have some wisdom or otherwise to impart. 

Sophie Jamieson (06:14) 

The start of your mentoring career. I'm just putting this on airplane mode because I noticed it buzzed then, which is not helpful. Anthony, you're one of ⁓ Cliff's more recent mentees. And I wondered if you could tell us a bit about what your initial expectations were of what that mentorship would be and whether that's evolved in the time that you've been working with. 

Anthony Achille (06:37) 

Yeah, absolutely. To begin, I thought that our relationship might be confined to my academic studies and tips towards making the best out of my university experience or my career, but it's been so much more than that. Cliff has been sounding board for, you know, soft skills for advice outside of... 

career or studies. ⁓ And in terms of how my expectations have evolved, firstly, my expectations of myself have gone up. ⁓ That's twofold in terms of what I think I'm capable of ⁓ or how ambitious I choose to be. Perhaps before meeting Cliff, I thought I had quite a set path or a confinement or parameters which I could operate in. But on social mobility, think Cliff has really helped to unpick my understanding of how A connects to B and understanding what I'm capable of. 

Sophie Jamieson (07:44) 

And Cliff, we've heard from Anthony there as one of your newer mentees and Nick as someone you've worked with for a long time. And I wondered how your philosophy of mentorship, if we can put it that grandly, how that has evolved throughout your career and as you've seen the journeys that your mentees have gone. mean, obviously Nick's gone from newly qualified lawyer to partner and you must have learned something in that time yourself. 

Cliff Fluet (08:11) 

Yeah, I mean, think more than anything now I've realised it's probably about as much as passing on my mistakes and what's not worked as what has worked. You know, I think that that's something which people are like, oh, I don't have all the answers. No, it's about what questions you should be asking. It's not about going around, I achieve this, I achieve that. That's of no interest or particular help to people. When it didn't work is at least as helpful to a mentee as not. So I do get people saying to me, I'm not a mentor. don't know. Have you had any mistakes? Those might be helpful. So I think that for me is probably that. And then secondly, and it's as an important thing, is understanding that it's as much about listening as it is about telling. I think that mentors feel sometimes they've got to sit down and do a bit of a monologue and say well look here young person here's how it goes. No, no it's as much about listening as it is about talking which I hope that mentors or potential mentors will hear almost in a way that can lift a bit of a handbrake. Sometimes people feel they've got to go to a meeting and say right today we will turn about and we will tell you the secrets of life. That's not what it is. It's much more a question of listening as it's talking. 

Sophie Jamieson (09:41) 

And on that point, to Nick and to Anthony, is there anything that has surprised you in your mentoring relationship where perhaps you've had that realisation that your mentor is getting as much from it as you are? 

Nick Eziefula (09:57) 

I can think of a couple of things. One was where we were at an event recently and I didn't know that I was the first mentee that Cliff had ever worked with until, this was within the last year or so, we were at an event and Cliff said some very kind words. I think were a sort of coded message just to me that not everybody in the room would have understood about his mentorship journey. That was a nod to me and it made me realize that there was a real significance for him in the mentorship relationship that he and I have had. So that was one that stood out. Another thing that stood out, perhaps not in exactly the same way, was just about the level of dedication. There was a time when I was facing a really important career decision, and Cliff helped me, well actually several times this happened, and Cliff helped me through the process of this decision. He tell me what to do, but he listened, and he also just gave space for me to think through things. 

And I mean every day for a period of several weeks, you know, and Cliff's a busy man and he found the time for me to do that, which was extremely valuable to me at a quite difficult juncture in my part. 

Sophie Jamieson (11:09) 

And Anthony, you're not just a mentee, but you're beginning your own mentoring journey. So I wonder whether within those mentoring relationships that you've had, whether you felt that reciprocal benefit yourself. 

Anthony Achille (11:23) 

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ Just to touch upon the moment that surprised me though quickly, just wanted to go back to when I was a point at the end of my studies and I told Cliff that I didn't want to be a lawyer. That was quite daunting for me. I was perhaps apprehensive of him being maybe disappointed or, you know, after mentoring me this far. But no, immediately ⁓ Cliff turned that into a moment of opportunity of saying almost, he said brilliant, ⁓ I think X, Y and Z is possible. And then he led me with questions in terms of, okay, with the skillset you have, what are you curious about? ⁓ And he led me down a path of following my curiosity. 

So I'm very grateful for Cliff providing me with that safe space to be able to express exactly what I was feeling. ⁓ And at the time I was kind of battling with with this kind of sunken cost fallacy that I'd put so much time into this. And at the end of it, I wasn't sure that being going down the traditional path of being a solicitor was right for me. But Cliff gave me some great guidance in terms of truly following what it was I wanted to do. So I'm always going to be grateful for that. 

Cliff Fluet (12:51) 

On that point, I think that there's also a strange thing when you're a mentee as well, because I had this in relation to Fran. So many years ago, Fran offered me a job decades ago, and I had to say no. And the most crushing thing about it was sort of saying no to my mentor and not wanting to let them down. And again, he and his wife, said, you don't have to please us. You have to do the right thing. 

Cliff Fluet (13:20) 

For yourself. that's a behaviour that has been shown to me and it shows that there's a huge amount of respect, certainly mutual respect in any positive mentoring relationship as well. And you do have this natural ability or proclivity to want to please but that isn't about the healthiest relationship, that's not what it's about. What it really should be about is allowing you to thrive. And was the right decision now, it was the right decision then. 

Cliff Fluet (13:49) 

Anthony's taken the right decision for him. You know, he works at a place that I know people would give a functioning organ to be able to walk into, let alone work. Not that you have to drive past them most weeks. So, but again, it's that big leap and having that ability for that. And with regard to Nick talking about his career decision as well, who am I letting down? Am I letting down myself, my current employers, etc. 

Having the ability to unbundle something like that, those pivotal moments is a key moment and privilege of mentoring. 

Sophie Jamieson (14:25) 

And in terms of things you've learned, Cliff, from your mentees, are there ways in which you'd say mentoring has influenced your own career or anything that you've seen from your mentees and their perspectives that might have challenged your assumptions? 

Cliff Fluet (14:42) 

I think that to pick up the point earlier about it being reciprocal or bringing it back, think that the... I learn from every one of my mentees. I like to think I learn from every one of my clients and everyone that I meet. I think that, you know, having a curious mindset has led to this fairly ⁓ improbable life that I lead right now. ⁓ And I think it's a huge respect. 

But all the time, and particularly those from a different generation who have a completely different outlook, they've had a different experience, that I find so illuminative. And doing what I do, for example, the world, so I am at the cutting edge of digital, certainly in terms of my practice. If I'm not in tune with what other generations or other worldviews are, then I'm just not doing service to myself. 

Sophie Jamieson (15:35) 

And Anthony and Nick, what ways would you say that being mentored has perhaps shaped your confidence, your careers choices or your approaches to challenges when you reflect on that experience of being mentored? Are there any unique benefits that you think you've got from that that you wouldn't have had otherwise? 

Anthony Achille (15:58) 

Yeah, absolutely. I think being mentored has done a world of good for my confidence. Firstly, ⁓ I will never forget Cliff telling me something. There'll be multiple times in your career where somebody approaches you for advice or your opinion on something. And the worst thing that you can do at that time is not have an opinion. And obviously, notwithstanding if you actually don't know then don't bluff your way but... ⁓ 

That made me realize and reinforce the fact that I am paid for my opinion. I am paid because of my expertise and I'm sought after because of my skill set. And what that's done in terms of increasing social mobility as well as increasing my ability to just voice my opinion at the table where perhaps in my adolescence I really wouldn't. 

⁓ It's done a great thing for me. And when it came to career choices, Cliff may not remember this, but I was lucky enough to have work experience with Cliff many, many moons ago. And it was down to that experience ⁓ that unlocked and where I discovered the world of the intersection of media, technology and entertainment. 

I was lucky enough to experience one of the first companies building at the intersection of AI and music. And that just led to many more questions than anything else, which has kind of become a lifelong rabbit hole now that I'm continuously asking questions, continuously trying to learn. And I'm always trying to scratch that curiosity, that experience left with me. 

Nick Eziefula (18:00) 

I can think of several things. so there's an element of demystification that is one of the things I've really benefited from through Cliff's mentorship. So it's easy to look at people doing incredible things and think it's impossible, know, something's unique or special to them and you've no idea how they get to that place or how you could ever follow that path. 

And Cliff's helped me to unpick that in lot of our discussions to explain what is that role? What is this? What is happening in this part of the industry, the business and how do you get to that? There's also in our mentorship relationship, there's a role model aspect. So I look up to Cliff and I admire what he's done with his life, with his career. And that's a thing that sort of has a really big influence on me. In particular. 

you know, I don't see a lot of people of color across the sectors that we work in, thriving in the way that he and now me are doing. And that's been a really important thing for me. Representation, I guess. Seeing yourself in the spaces that you want to be in. And that was, I guess, a factor from the very beginning when I first connected with Cliff, because that was one of the things that stood out about him. So that's that. Those are some key things. 

Sophie Jamieson (19:28) 

Something I wanted to touch on is everyone's personal backgrounds here. We're a social mobility podcast. We're interested in where people have come from and where they're going. And so it'd be interesting to hear from you all on how your own background impacted the way that you sought mentorship, what you thought you needed, perhaps the advice you'd give to other people who come from a similar background to you. 

Nick, perhaps we'll start with you because you mentioned at the beginning that you went to private school and our listeners might think, why would someone who went to a private school need mentoring? So maybe you could talk a bit about that for us. 

Nick Eziefula (20:12) 

Sure. 

⁓ I got a great education, but that didn't give me all the answers to life. ⁓ And if I'm honest, I came out of my education, which I'm very privileged to have, with a lot of questions and fact, quite a lot of confusions, in particular about who I am and where I fit in in the world. In some ways, that's a function of growing up in a mixed heritage, with mixed heritage background, basically. 

I'm never truly squarely in one grouping or circle. I'm always part of something else as well, ⁓ which is a gift as well as a challenge in many ways. But mentorship has been useful in that journey to help me to understand my place in things and where I can go and not to look at things too much in terms of, well, these people do these things and if you're not one of those people, you can't do it. In fact, possibilities are open. So that's been an important element of it for me. 

Sophie Jamieson (21:14) 

I think that's a really important point and you know, I don't like to hide that I went to private school as well, but that doesn't mean that I knew all the answers and I think there's a big demystification job to do that, you know, going into the workplace, people might think that people from other backgrounds know how everything works and there's no doubt that having a private education is a head start in life, but we all have things to learn and we all have a role in paying that forward and helping other people from all sorts of different backgrounds get the opportunities that they want. Anthony, turning to you on that point, is there anything about your own personal background and experiences that you think has influenced your mentoring experience? 

Anthony Achille (22:02) 

Yeah, a few things. So I went to a state school and I was the first in my family to go to university, my immediate family. And through my mum, especially, and my grandparents, I really learned to be resourceful. And that's influenced how I've sought mentoring relationships in terms of making the most of opportunities and not letting them pass by opportunities to work with the mentor like Cliff don't come around often and life changing opportunities don't come around often. So I've really learned to make the most of an opportunity when it comes by and not be complacent or kind of rest on my laurels. That's a phrase that I learned from my mum actually. She would always encourage me to go the extra mile despite, you know, perhaps feeling comfortable or 

feeling like I had done enough. It was always an encouraging push to, you know, test the boundaries of what you think you're capable of and working with Cliff has only enforced that further. 

Sophie Jamieson (23:15) 

Parents, probably some of our best mentors, really. ⁓ Cliff, you touched a bit on your background earlier. Is there anything else that you would say about your personal experiences growing up that affects you as a mentor or mentee? 

Cliff Fluet (23:29) 

Yeah, I mean, I suppose the mentors I referred to before actually in many ways were all outsiders. And perhaps that's what I latched onto was that actually that they are people that had succeeded against the odds. They are people that have worked their way through. You know, it's a difficult thing and I don't want it to turn into one of those sort of, you know, like the four Yorkshiremen sketch for people who know them and they're Monty Python, as it were. But, you know, I was black, I was poor and you grew up knowing your place which is nowhere. You know, you are absent from things etc etc and I grew up in the 1970s in London which was a pretty overtly racist place. You think it's okay now but you you could wake up one morning and have a freshly a graffiti national front or swastika outside your flat. You could be greeted with that in the morning so that's quite tough.  

The idea that you have the permission to ask people is something I just didn't think I had and the idea that you have permission to pass on I think what's really really important is narratives are important. The real question is is you don't grow up thinking about networking, you don't grow up thinking about accessing things, you don't think about what are the levers of power. Those are words which you know would have sounded like a completely different language growing up but understanding it's about making connections. If we were to boil down anything on all of that. And the best mentoring relationships are where people have made a connection and they can help them make connections. And I don't mean just in terms of introducing people, understanding how things work. How does an industry work? How does an ecosystem work? How does a profession work? Those are the connections that you can unlock to people. So I get people as well saying, well, I don't have the black book that you had. Well, I used to not even have a book, let alone a black 

⁓ But if you can make people understand those connections in life, in places, it will then lead to connections in terms of people and in relation to business opportunities. That's all. And everyone is connected and everyone is connected in whole new ways and can understand new ways of connections. So for anyone that's thinking or pondering the idea of that, thinking, well, I don't have a black book or I don't have a wisdom. This is nonsense. That's not what it's about. 

I never had those things. In many ways, actually, through my mentees, actually, I've built a whole new network. You know, I've taken on four mentors, sorry, mentees, sorry, every year for the last 20 years, right? Do the maths. I've now got this extraordinary referral network, which believe me was not the point in any way, shape or form. Now, so even if you were to look at it in completely mercantile or Machiavellian, you're building a network as well. 

But again, it's all about connections. 

Sophie Jamieson (26:30) 

I wondered from your own experiences, ⁓ Anthony and Nick, what you would say people perhaps misconceive or misunderstand about what mentorship really is and the benefits that come from it. Are there any misconceptions you'd like to address? 

Nick Eziefula (26:48) 

I think people assume that you speak to a mentor and they will just tell you what to do. As in, I don't know how to get to do this or I'm not sure what path to follow. I'll just ask my mentor and they'll tell me the right way to do it. It's not as simplistic as that and actually it's about bringing out within yourself, with the help of your mentor, know, the vision that you have or reaching a view or charting the path that you want to follow. That's a key one I think. 

Anthony Achille (27:18) 

I think a misconception is that mentorship and the relationship that comes with it is a one-way street. I think the best mentoring relationships are a dialogue and the learning is reciprocal. Where it can be misunderstood is that from a mentor, all the knowledge is only being passed down from... or to mentee, whereas I think a lot can be learned both ways. 

Sophie Jamieson (27:51) 

I wonder on that point what we all think about the term reverse mentoring and whether it can actually be a useful term, Cliff. 

Cliff Fluet (28:00) 

Yeah, reverse mentoring, I understand why we use the term, but it's perhaps not particularly helpful because I think it implies that there is something hierarchical about mentoring and you're reversing the polarity of that. If it weren't so clumsy, and I'm sure there's some brilliantly creative people listening to this right now, reciprocal mentoring, peer mentoring, something that actually demonstrates this is much more of a lateral thing. 

Rather than a hierarchical thing, I think could be really, really important. Because it just emphasizes that we all have things to learn from each other. And that actually, there's something about that that understands that this is a dual log and a dialogue rather than a diatribe or a monologue. You need to have that opportunity to have that feedback loop and understanding that it's about sharing different experiences. For the people that I've been involved in the reciprocal mentorship with, 

They've been far more senior to me on the latter of life. Yet I've learnt a lot, they've learnt a lot, and I've gotten to know them in ways that I've never done, even though I've worked with them for many, many years. So reciprocal mentoring, peer-to-peer mentoring, lateral mentoring, let's find a better way of putting it. It can be extremely powerful. 

Sophie Jamieson (29:20) 

Nick, anything to add to that? 

Nick Eziefula (29:24) 

I fully agree. I also find the reverse mentoring term confusing, clumsy, and it doesn't quite fit for the reasons that you set out. And just to add, I would say that I've really seen the benefit of learning from others who maybe aren't as senior as me in the career or in the profession. But people approach things in different ways. People perceive challenges in different ways. And I've had my eyes open by looking at how other people look at things. And that's within mentoring, mentorship, it's also even more broadly. There's sort of elements of mentorship in a lot of the business relationships, working relationships that one can form. And it's about spotting that and learning from those opportunities. 

Anthony Achille (30:12) 

Definitely. ⁓ The term can be perhaps interpreted as being condescending. So I would say it's important to be mindful of how to approach the term and some of the best ⁓ lessons I've learned have been from people from completely different backgrounds to me. ⁓ I'm always looking to be in a room where perhaps, you know... looking to be in a room where I'm not the smartest in room or I don't have the experience that others do because I think it's important ⁓ to learn off of people that have more experience than you, people that are, you know, appear and also people that perhaps starting out on that journey because you can learn things from everyone. 

Sophie Jamieson (31:03) 

And we've talked about how mentoring is useful for everyone, no matter your background and whether you're the mentor or the mentee. But to bring it back to social mobility, which is our primary focus on this podcast, how do you all think that mentoring relationships can help drive greater social mobility, perhaps in the legal sector, but more widely? 

Nick Eziefula (31:31) 

I think that a key aspect of it is showing people that they can get to wherever it is that they want to go. There are so many perceived barriers, and it's not people's fault that they perceive these barriers as the way that our society works, sadly, but there are all these hurdles in the way of getting to where you want to go, and there's a sense that I can't really get there, you know, I'm not the kind of person that would be a... partner in a law firm or whatever else it might be. And mentorship can help break those things down by giving you a clearer view as to how you'll get to your goal and also just by challenging those assumptions and making it seem a little less magical how people reach where they get to. 

Instead, gives you a sense of, actually, there's a process. And these are real people who are not perfect, who are doing these various things. And you could be one of those people as well, if you follow the right path. 

Anthony Achille (32:35) 

Definitely. think to echo that, transparency is very important when it comes to demystifying how certain industries work, certain processes, but also transparency for the individual, for yourself. And what I mean by that is a mentoring relationship can really coax who you are as a person to come to the forefront. And I think it's important for people to get to know you for who you are as an individual. 

Not who you think you should be or how you think you should act. I think that a mentoring relationship can really be useful in helping you be comfortable with yourself. 

Sophie Jamieson (33:17) 

And Cliff, I was struck by the fact that your first mentoring relationship as mentor came via a kind of official program. And I wondered what you thought perhaps employers or organisations should be doing to encourage and support mentoring. 

Cliff Fluet (33:38) 

I think it's absolutely key. I mean, not only from that would I have not met Nick or led down the journey that I've gone, but it's an extraordinary way for you to develop your talent, for them to hone their management skills, for them to build their networks. I'm often asked, why do you spend all of your time doing this sort of stuff? It's fairly clear from what's implicit in such a phrase. And I always say this only, I'm not spending time. I don't spend time. 

We as human beings, we make this fundamental mistake that time is money. Unlike money, time is not scalable. It's not retrievable. You'll never ever get it back. So the last thing to do is treat time like money. What we do need to do is do things that actually are going to grow, which is something like mentoring. It's an extraordinary investment in yourself, in your network and in your own soft skills. And I think that actually more organisations should be doing it. 

I would say to people as well, think of the number of times in terms of the input to output ratio, one phone call, one meeting, one quick chat could change your life. I'd be amazed to find anything else that you do that can have that kind of impact. Lots of people in charitable sector, it's a long, slow slog getting the money in, doing that versus actually the actual input to output ratio. So even if you're going to be really, really, really time constrained about it all. 

There's nothing more efficient. 

Sophie Jamieson (35:10) 

So having been mentees, Anthony and Nick, you've now stepped into the role of mentor, both of you. And I wonder if you'd tell us a bit about that. 

Nick Eziefula (35:20) 

For me, I was asked to become a mentor in similar way to how Cliff was asked many years ago. something about that was significant to me because I thought, ⁓ OK, I've reached a point now. And we talked about how it's not about seniority necessarily. But I did feel that I'd reached a point where I realized I had something to offer and to give. And also a point where can now think, not just about my own path, but about the path of others and how I can help others. There's a certain bit of groundwork I felt I needed to do to be able to reach a point where I could offer support to others. You don't want do it too early necessarily because you need to be ready. And then realizing I was ready to do that and to support others with their journey was quite a, I felt proud really of reaching that point. And also I felt a sense of an opportunity to give back. 

And also bit of responsibility. And these are healthy responsibilities, I think, ⁓ to see if I could support others in their journey. 

Sophie Jamieson (36:26) 

And Anthony, your experience of giving back in that way? 

Anthony Achille (36:30) 

I had also felt ⁓ that responsibility of giving back and I felt the desire to want to do that. Now lucky enough to learn off of and mentor musicians on the Help Musicians Copilot Program, which is a professional mentoring program by a UK charity for professional musicians. And I'm also 

I'm lucky to spend my time mentoring founders, building startups across the UK and Europe. it's ⁓ certainly something within me that I felt ready and I felt like I wanted to do. 

Sophie Jamieson (37:13) 

Well, hopefully that's led all our listeners to feel very inspired to get involved in mentoring, be that as a mentee, a mentor. As a final point, it would be really interesting to know from each of you, if you were speaking to your younger self, what piece of advice do you think that you would give them about this whole idea of mentoring? perhaps starting with Cliff, if you went back to that school child. 

hearing about the teachers talking about you in the staff room and your potential. Is there anything you'd tell your younger self about what mentoring can do? 

Cliff Fluet (37:49) 

Frankly, I just wish I'd been doing it earlier. I wish that, you know, I'm so glad that Jackie Davidson's organisation put us in touch with Nick, etc. I just think, good lord, you could have done so much more if you'd started earlier. So start early would be my advice. Don't want people listening to this thinking, oh, well, I have to wait till I'm a partner at a law firm. 

Sophie Jamieson (38:12) 

And same question to you, Anthony. 

Anthony Achille (38:15) 

To my younger self, I'd say be comfortable with asking for help. I think that I grew up trying to be as independent as possible. No siblings, had an only child. I would encourage myself to reach out earlier for mentoring relationships and be comfortable with reaching out and not seeing that asking for help is a burden, it's a natural thing. 

Nick Eziefula (38:46) 

I'd echo all of those really great pieces of guidance. I'd also say be yourself in this. Be open, be honest, be vulnerable in the way that you approach it because you're not really going to get to the truth and to the real insights if you feel you have to be a different way and hold yourself in a certain way or portray a certain image of yourself. Just be really open. 

Sophie (39:24) 

Thanks again to Cliff, Nick and Anthony for their time and sharing their stories. We hope you found them as interesting as I did and with any luck, inspiring too. You'll find transcripts and notes included with this episode if you want to learn more. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please do leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts and share any comments that you have. We'd love to hear them. 

This episode is just the start in many more to come from the Lewis Silkin team about the subject of social mobility. So be sure to follow us to listen to those episodes in the future. And we look forward to you joining us next time.