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Can+Did, a TN Voices Podcast
Can+Did, a TN Voices Podcast
Sheph Leonard
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In the latest episode of CAN+DID Rikki Harris and Will Voss sit down with Sheph Leonard, Middle School Pastor at Long Hollow Church to hear his amazing story.
And it is a podcast of Tennessee Voices about mental health, featuring stories of people who have overcome mental health challenges, as well as those who have helped people overcome mental health challenges. This podcast is about authenticity, and it's intended to give a voice to those who are passionate about mental well-being. We hope that by sharing stories, listeners understand mental health and just how important it is in our day-to-day lives, and they will help us reduce stigma. We want you to know that so many who have struggled with mental health can and did overcome their challenges. And if you're struggling, you can too. I'm your host, Ricky Harris, CEO of Tennessee Voices, and with me is my favorite co-host, Will Voss, COO of Tennessee Voices. Welcome to our podcast. Let's get handed.
SPEAKER_00Thank you to our candidate sponsors who made this episode possible. The Omni Family of Services is a multi-state human services agency serving adults and children. Through the common competent label, they provide a continuum of care, including foster care, family corporations, high school health, and primary care services, focused on healthcare families, and communityfamers.com at healthfree.com. To learn more about the Officer Family Services, or to contact an office with you, there's a link provided in this podcast description. Along with the contact email, if you for your business would like to sponsor an episode of Candid.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to this episode of the Candid Podcast. I'm Ricky Harris, your host and my co-host here with me.
SPEAKER_05I'm Will Voss. Hello, hello.
SPEAKER_02The one, the only, Will Voss, C O O Tennessee Voices. Fancy title. We are excited. I'm excited. I'm personally very excited about today. I know that I've been looking forward to this interview for a few weeks now. We have today on our podcast, Chef Atia goes by Chef Leonard, middle school pastor at Long Hollow Church. And I'm super excited because I had a chance to hear your story and it shook me. It was nothing I had ever heard before. And I'm excited for you to tell our listeners today that story. But first, give us a quick intro. Tell us your family, your like give us the good, you know, the quick stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So I'm originally from Miami, Florida, uh, born and raised. Um didn't really know the South existed until I got to the South. Uh and uh my grandma grew up in Anderson, Alabama. Um, well, my grandma's from Aniston, Alabama. Uh, and so the only kind of taste I had of the South was kind of going to visit her a little bit, but not really knowing um the true kind of uh the heart of the South, I guess you could say it, until I moved here. Um, but yeah, man, my whole life was spent in Miami. All my family is still down there. Uh we we moved to Nashville 2016. Uh we have three kids. Uh one one is Malachi, he's the oldest, he's eight years old. Uh the middle child is Jalen, she's five, and uh going on 21. Uh and then Scarlett is two, uh going on 40. So yeah, we just have just a bunch of this. The two-year-old for some reason is an old soul, we're very calm. We can't figure her out yet. We're like, man, what if you know? Um, her middle name is Ella. So I think that has something to do with a really old southern name. So maybe she's that was my grandmother's name. It's all right. That's all right. That was my grandmother's name. That's so cool. Okay, so she was named after my grandmother after she passed. We named her um after her, so that's pretty cool. Okay, so uh yeah, man. So we moved in Nashville, 2016. Love it here. Um, love raising our family here. Uh, and then we got here the first year, we we kind of got the the taste of the stuff because uh we had the best of both worlds. We had some interesting experiences um being in um the place of cotton town. So we had some interesting experiences there. And then uh you live in Cottontown? I live in Cottontown. Yes, all my friends were like, Chef, are you sure you want to move to Cottontown, bro? Like, are you sure? Like the name alone. I'm like, I know, I know. But I had a friend, um, uh a mentor who moved here before I did, and he lived in Cottontown. So he's like, Listen, I know the name could throw you off, but the people here are awesome. So I said, All right, I trust you. Um, and man, he wasn't wrong. My neighbors are amazing, they love my family. We didn't know uh how to cut our grass with a zero turn, uh push more, but we had two acres, and I'm out there for eight hours, no lies. Oh no, and it's the whole day, and he's like, You need some help out there? Oh I said, you know what, man, I'll take it. So he cut our grass for two weeks, no charge, just did it out of kind of his heart, yeah. And then we got a got a zero turn and he showed me how to use it, and just so man, the southern hospitality is a real thing here, and we may we appreciate that. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. Oh my goodness. So, okay, I had to recover from that story really quick.
SPEAKER_03There's a lot there, I know.
SPEAKER_02I'm just trying to like imagine the whole so Miami. Let's talk about that for a second.
SPEAKER_03Seventh floor of a condo overlooking the water is where we came from.
SPEAKER_02Wow, no cutting grass there.
SPEAKER_03No, no grass at all.
SPEAKER_02Do you miss the beach?
SPEAKER_03Yes, and no. There's a there's a hate and love dynamic there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow. Will and I were just uh we flew into Miami for work not too long ago. Ate some breakfast there right on the beach.
SPEAKER_05Come on.
SPEAKER_02Interesting place that Miami.
SPEAKER_05Interesting, yes, yes. Perfect place to work remotely from, I will say.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Not too bad. No, not too bad at all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we we did uh during COVID, the church was shut down for a little bit, as you can imagine. Um we went to Miami and just kind of I worked remote from Miami. So that was kind of the idea.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's awesome. And what does your what does your wife do, Chef?
SPEAKER_03So she's a nurse. So she's um been a nurse for a few years now.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03She's back in school to get her master's. Um, she's gonna become an NP when she's at Union University. So we're halfway through it. Halfway through.
SPEAKER_02Keep praying for us because that is tough times, but it will be so good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it will be so good.
SPEAKER_02That's incredible. Okay, so small side note had I been a nurse when I had children, I would have been so much. I I don't even think I would have had half the anxiety. All of my anxiety was around their like medical safety. But medical safety like physical health. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, so that's refreshing. That would be very calming to have a nurse in the family with little children.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Now, when I'm sick, she doesn't care because she knows exactly what's going on. I'm just like, I am dying. You don't care. She's like, You have a cold, get out of my face. I'm like, oh, you know what? I'm going to the hospital. It's not fair.
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Well, dive in. Tell us your story. Um, I know you have a really interesting story from from your name. I mean, even from your name.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Um, so my story, I guess you can say, starts back, man, before um I could even make my own decisions as a child. Um, I grew up in a what you would call a black supremacist cult. Um, and I didn't realize it was a cult until I got old enough to do research. I'm like, hey, this doesn't seem like, you know, uh a kind of a healthy situation. And um, even the word when I call it a cult, my parents still kind of cringe. I'm like, ah, we we will and really they don't even like accept the term cult. And I'm like, this is the cult. Um, and so what it was is this black supremacist cult um was called the nation of Yahweh. And in this nation, in this cult, um the process was um they were telling um African Americans, hey, this is your true identity, this is who you really are. Um, and they were they were kind of giving this information in a time where um there was still some oppression that was happening. There wasn't full um, there wasn't full kind of like um liberty to do of certain things, or if you know, you know, they were moving towards that. Um, but you know, this came at a very you know um impactful time. I think the I I can't remember the dates, but I think uh this is around the time of the um Liberty City riot out of Miami, you know, there's some some you know a lot of things that were going on, um, which is some some police brutality, you know, some different all different things are going on. And so uh they were trying to kind of still scrambling for identity. And you know, it can be argued that the black person, the African American, is still kind of searching for some identity. Um, but this guy um he called himself Yahweh bin Yahweh, and um basically that means the son of God. And he decided, you know, that he was going to kind of combine and share this knowledge of um that the black person was the true Israelites in the old testament, and so anything you read in the old testament about that nation of Israel, of Judah, you know, all those tribes, they were all African American, and not just African-American, but they were the chosen priesthood, they were the chosen race. Um, and so then you move into this kind of ideology of hey, now that black people we understand who black people are, let's understand who white people are. Um, they are the Gentiles, they are um, and then you know, I remember these these Bibles that we would read. Um, it would literally depict as, you know, you know, everybody in the old testament is black. You know, you got Samson who had dreads. I'm like, okay, I believe that. And then you know, there's you know, there's all these different people in the oldest who are just black, and then you look at um the devil and he's depicted as this white guy, and you know, that was kind of the dynamic. It was the blacks are chosen, white people are evil. Um now um there was this also understanding because the guy he was he was the leader was you know trying to get into the political space. So he would shake hands with the mayor, but I think their underlying tone was we still are superior um to um white people, in the sense of that we are the chosen priesthood, we are the chosen race. Um and so as I got older, you know, I remember going to these festivals. We we would, you know, did everything by the old testament, didn't believe in Jesus, didn't believe he was just the um this the savior. Um we believed that in the old testament, um, all things that were said were kind of like it, and everything after that New Testament was kind of written by white people basically, because Jesus um was a um a name that wasn't Jewish, um, you know, because there's no J in the Jewish language, and that was their whole argument that you know there was no J in the Jewish language, and you can't kill God. And so how do you and so that whole trinity didn't make sense, and so they just threw out the whole New Testament completely. Old Testament, um, we followed the festivals, and so you know, you had the Feast of Booths, um, Feast of Tabernacles, and we followed all those feasts together, and so we would kind of disperse and live um in you know certain apartment complexes together, and then we would all come together for these giant conferences um and rent out huge spots in Miami, balls, town halls, um, and we had these huge feasts. And um, I remember this sitting in a crowd, and it was a sea of people all wearing white and gold. They were buying up gold because they they didn't they they um they saw that gold would never lose its value. So any money brought in was bought, you know, gold was bought. And then we were these head wraps around our heads. Um, I remember as a kid them being super itchy, and I just have to scratch, scratch, scratch, scratch, scratch, and then they would get untangled. My mom would get mad at me, slap me on my hand, and they have to wrap it again. And two minutes later, I'm scratching again, and it's coming, and she's just kind of constantly wrapping my head wrap around my head. Um, and we had these long white robes it would wear, and um, so everybody wore the same, the same thing. And if you Google a picture of this guy, you'll see him wearing the same exact thing. He had a white head wrap and a white robe. That's what everybody wore. And so um then years went by, you know, we grew up in this cult, and um, I'm not sure of the details. My parents still are a little fuzzy on telling me everything. Uh it was kind of like frying teeth. Um, and so basically the feds came in, uh, they arrested him, and then we they dispersed the cult. Um, we lived, and so it wasn't a compound, it was an apartment complex in the heart of Miami, uh, but we all lived in community together. Um, so there's a lady who took care of all the kids. So I remember getting dropped off at Ima Lee Sheba's house. That's her name. Um, Ima Mean is mother. Um Lee Sheba was her name. So Ima Lee Shiba was her name. Um, and she would feed us. Um, we ate a lot of black beans and rice um and cornbread. That was kind of like the staple meals of what we ate. I guess it was most affordable to feed that many people. Um, and so we we we would uh get dropped off her house. My parents would go work. Um my mom did a lot of just different odd jobs. My dad was uh school teacher, um, and he also uh was a manager at Burger King. He had like a couple different jobs. Um, but they were kind of, I think they were bringing money in and kind of you know, you kind of would kind of give a percentage or all of it to the organization, and that's how they were able to buy these things up. Well, FBI comes in, dismantles everything, arrests this guy, uh, the head guy, um, and then we ended up moving out of the apartment. And at that point, the festival stopped when he stopped. They were trying to do some things together, but everything kind of kind of came to a halt. Um, man, years went by, this guy was still in jail, and I remember the day when he got released from jail. I'll never forget my dad watching TV and seeing the report about him coming out of jail, and my dad just started jumping up and down. He's out, he's out, he's free, he's free. And I'm just like, what? What are you doing? Like, we were we I mean, it had been years since we've been out, and he still celebrated. And um, my mom at that point was like, man, you're brainwashed. And they I mean they they were in together, and so it was like my mom, mom at that point, she had already, you know, recommitted her life to following Jesus again. Um, my mom's story is kind of crazy. She was 18 years old. She got she was at a college in Aniston, Alabama, and a lady was on the campus talking to them about the nation of Yahweh because they were traveling that world, they were traveling the nation, kind of recruiting people at college campuses, kind of giving them insight. And so my mom heard about this, was like, wow, that's amazing. Um, at 18 years old, left home, didn't tell my mom or or grandfather where she was going, and moved to Miami by herself, then she literally got on the phone later that week when they couldn't find her and said, Hey, I'm okay, I'm safe, I've joined an organization, I'm not coming back home at 18 years old. And so that that was that was kind of her story. And um, then her and my dad um were friends, they met up. My dad is 15 years older than my mom, yeah, 15 years older. Um, so where they met, they were just friends. And then uh, but the way this guy operates is if he sees a certain amount of people are friends, he said, okay, you two are friends, you two are friends, he he just decides you're gonna get married. So there was no love romance, there was no, there was no like, you know, proposal, there was no like dating, there was just like, hey, y'all are friends, y'all get married. And so they did. They got married on the stage with 15 other couples who were assigned to get married, also. Um, as a custom of this guy, he would take all the babies who were born and he would name the babies. And so my name, Shephatia, wasn't even given to me by my parents, it was given to me by this co-leader. My sister's name, Miriam, wasn't given to me by my her parents, by the co-lier. And so we both have biblical names um because that's how they operate. They give you biblical names, um, and he will also change your name. And so my dad's name, uh, he would he would give them um Hebrew names. So if your name is Joseph, in English, they would change it to the Hebrew version, which is Yosef, because there's no J. So Yosef. Um, my mom's name is Angela, in Hebrew is Haviva, and so her name was changed to Haviva. And so they would literally call you these things. Um, my brother's name, I have two stepbrothers. Um, they were they kind of were in it a little bit um before I was. Um, and my my one was one brother's name is Tori, but my entire life I didn't know his real name. I I called him Ben Zion my entire life. Um and then the same thing for my my other brother, Joseph. His name is Joseph, and so like Yosef and Ben Zion, so I called him. And they're like, hey, we got older, we're like, oh, they're in like their 40s, I'm in my 30s. And then they're like, hey, yeah, our name is my name is Tori. I'm like, Tori? I don't even know you. What? Like, he goes, Yeah, I've been claiming Ben Zion my entire life. And so just these names that just keep he'll just give you a different name or you know, change a Hebrew version of it. Um and so that's a lot, I know it's a lot of the kind of process, but that was kind of like the kind of the nut um the of everything. I mean, we we uh we lived a life based off the old testament for a very long time. It was very weird for my friends because I couldn't eat shelfish. So I and I could I couldn't eat shelfish pork. Um, I couldn't at five o'clock on Fridays, kind of like the seventh-day adventures. I have to go inside after sundown on Friday. Um and I couldn't go out until Saturday, um Saturday evening. Um so kind of practicing the um Shabbat, you know, practicing um uh that. And so it was it was uh very interesting. We took all the all the unleavened bread out of the house, you know, anything with flour, we took it out of the house to put it in the trunk of the car, um, ate certain foods during that time frame, um, took the communion, I mean, which is weird because my mom, at that point, my mom was trying to like, she was again, she was still um out of the cult following Jesus, but she still believed a lot of things in the cult. And so she was following the Shabbat, which I don't think is anything wrong with that. Um, but then also like mixing the communion, and so she she kind of got into this world of the um uh the messianic Jews, where they had this old testament kind of understanding with the new testament appreciation for Jesus, and so she kind of fell in that kind of regard because she still believed in a lot of things. Um, so yeah, that's pretty much it.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_05That's a lot, a lot.
SPEAKER_02It's more detailed than I heard.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And and you know, it it's stories like that where I'll say a couple of things. One, you never know somebody's background. Um, I know here we we we follow what we call the system of care philosophies and principles. We talk about being family-driven, youth guided, community-based. And one of the other pillars is being culturally and linguistically competent. There's so much that we can learn from another all through our backgrounds. And especially to think about, well, uh our first mind goes to, oh, yeah, you're a pastor, you've been a Christian your whole life. But there's a lot more behind that, there's a lot more underneath that. So, one, thank you for sharing that. And I think about, well, you take everything that you those experiences. Uh how has that helped shape who you are today?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, that's a great question because I think through our experiences, like we are also shaped in, you know, the good and the bad, you know, and there's some bad you don't think, hey, I don't really I don't even need that bad. Um but I think man, because of my experiences, I have an appreciation of people's story. Um, and the reason why I kept my name, I because I had a choice to make, you know, I'm like, all right, my parents didn't name me. This guy who I don't know, who God knows what he actually did behind the closed doors, he named me. Do I want to keep this? Um it's weird because I had to make the same decision with my dad, you know, because my dad's last name is Warren, and my mom's last name is Leonard. And um forever I I've been kind of under the idea, and I still don't really know the true answer. Again, my parents are like pulling teeth. Um, I'm like, why did I get my mom's last name? Like, like my talk to my dad, like how you didn't care, you didn't want me to be a warrant, my dad's next name is Warren. Um, but legally it's Leonard. But all through All through school in my yearbook on my football jersey, everything is worn. Everything's worn. Elementary school, like my entire life, Sheppatai Warren is who I have been. I know, I know. Um, and I went to graduate high school, and they're looking at me like, uh, you don't exist, so you can't graduate. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean you don't exist? Like, shephatai Warren does not exist. We can't find any legal records of him and birth certificate, social security card, like nothing's matching up. Um, your last name is legally Leonard. I'm like, What? You didn't even know? I didn't know. I didn't know. And so I go to my parents, I'm like, hey, I can't graduate because I don't exist. They're like, what? And they're like, I'm like, my last name is Leonard. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. Um, yeah. Um, so and I'm like, now I the understanding I have is like when the FBI came, or my dad was kind of, I guess, rising in the ranks of the cult, and my mom didn't want to have us kind of tied to him if anything ever happened, so they couldn't take us away from him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so she, like, hey, these are my kids, they have my last name kind of deal. Um, so Leonard has been my last name forever, and I had no idea. But anything, any records, my my tests, Scantrons, everything has always been worn. Everything, everything, everything, everything. And so it's just wild.
SPEAKER_02Scantron.
SPEAKER_03Scantrons.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yeah. Remember Scantrons.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. So beautiful. Man, it's just wild. And my yeah, so I say that to say um my identity. I had to make a choice. Do I want to keep this name? You know, my first name wasn't for me, didn't know my last name until I was graduate high school. Like, so I had an identity crisis. I'm like, okay, who am I? Um and my wife was like, all right, are we gonna be Leonard or are we gonna be Warren? Because I gotta pick a last name. And so because she's like, I'm gonna take on a new last name, but which one are you gonna take? So I asked my dad, do you care if I become a warren? Like, like I'm willing to switch my last name. I've been warned my entire life. Um, do you care? Do you want me to be Warren or are you okay with me, Stan Leonard? And he goes, do whatever you want to do. And I I deep deep down wanted him to say, become a warren because I because it's his legacy, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, he has two other sons, and so I'm guessing that's why he didn't like, you know, two other sons who are making babies, you know, you can be whatever you want. Um, I deep down wanted him to say, Yes, I want you to be a warren. But even he said he didn't care. I was like, all right, I'll stay a learner. And so I decided to keep my first name and my last name because they both have so much history behind just the stories of those two names. And it's my story, it's my journey, it's my experience. And so it shaped me to appreciate the stories and other people. It's helped me to appreciate the names of people, the meanings of names. Um, it's helped me to look at a culture and say, man, I deeply understand. I would deeply want to understand. And that wanting to understand is what you don't find a lot of. Um, people want to assume they're right a lot in the culture today. Um, you assume you're right until you're proven wrong. Um, and even when you prove it wrong, you gotta go through a lot, it's a lot a lot to kind of really show me that I'm wrong. And maybe a couple years down the road, I may, you know, admit, yeah, maybe I didn't have it all right, but you're never admitted you're wrong in this culture. And so I think that's that posture is just toxic. It's just unhealthy in relationships, it's unhealthy in life, it's unhealthy in business. I mean, just every aspect of life, that posture of I'm right, and I don't want to understand or learn from anything or anybody is just it's just horrible. So that's how kind of helped it's helped me kind of understand, you know, my story has helped me a little bit just with people and loving people, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So loving yourself. And loving yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that part, I mean, you talked about I hadn't I had to figure out my identity. And unlike most people, you had some choices in in your identity at a stage in your life where you were like, do I want to keep this name? Do I want to stay in this thing? Or do I wanna do what where what led you to where you are now? How did you make those decisions that led you to now being a middle school pastor?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. No, it's great. Um, well, there was a little, there was confusion. I'm just I just there's some a lot of confusion of like those years. And um, I remember Jeff Borton, the guy who's who kind of got me here at Long Hollow. He's our um our mission pastor now at Long Hollow. Jeff was was uh coming by a real like a father figure, mentor. Uh my dad wasn't around, my dad was a provider, my dad was a hard worker. Um, but there's no like relationship, like, hey, let's talk about life, let's talk about girls. Like, he asked me a couple questions. He said he wanted to make sure that I like girls, and he wanted to make sure um that I worked hard. That's all he cared about. And so that relationship there wasn't really there was no depth to it. Um, so Jeff stepped in and he was kind of that emotional, like, hey, feelings and kitting tears and Jesus. And I was like, whoa, okay. Um, so Jeff, he kind of walked me through those periods of like identity. Um, so I would show up to Christ Fellowship um in Miami, the church we were at, and I would have a Jewish star, gold Jewish star, gold teeth, um, and dreadlocks. And he would, yes, I know it was this weird combination that I'm gonna do. Trying to envision it, but a kid with a like just trying to figure out who he was. So I had the Jewish star because I still like my mom believed in like the old testament, which I say like still believe, I still believe in the old testament. Um, I just you know, there was a it held a different importance to me back then. Yeah, and so um I had a Jewish star um that I you know was holding on to you know to those those parts of me um that represented that part of me. And then my teeth, um, I had six at the bottom and six to the top, gold teeth. Um and they said praise Jesus in them. And so and so I I I am I am uh I wanted to be a walking billboard for Jesus is what I told myself. And so uh I mean and you know Jeff was like, all right, let's go, come on. And so he had me greedy kids at the door, you know, in student ministry. Um, he had me moving chairs, he gave me an internship, and um I got I ended up getting a job at the church and um you know as a maintenance guy. And then so I had I think I had three jobs at the church at one point. I was a security guard for them, maintenance, and I was an intern. Um and so I kind of made the church my home. Like I was there 24-7. Um, anything that would have, like I just I wanted to be there. And that is where I was able to kind of you know become, you know, whoever God wanted me to become. That's where I cried out and I learned to pray, I learned to just worship him. Um, that's where I spoke my first message, that's where I led my first Bible study, that's where um I started to um hire kids from the hood um and pay them through my paycheck um and started to kind of disciple them through that means. Like, you know, I was paying them, I think, 30 bucks a month. Um, but that 30 bucks a month back then paid for your phone bill. And so that's what they, you know, and so it was it was able to pay for their phone bill and they haven't they were able to have a phone. Um, and then their mom started calling me because they needed groceries, and I'm just like, whoa, I only only have 30 bucks a month to offer, and they're like, we need eggs. I'm like, okay. And so it's just like this this kind of like these moments of like, man, I'm I'm put I'm just put in a lot of positions that kind of helped develop who I was. When I didn't know who I was, I clung to Jesus, I clung to um man, being able to help people and love people. And I think God um gave me a safe place to do that at Christ Fellowship under Jeff, where I could wear two polar opposite things that fit but just communicated something confused to the world. Is it like they're like look, people looking at me like, what are you? Like, are you a unicorn? What is happening? And so that's kind of you know how that whole the growth started. And then over time, I you know became a youth pastor. Um, I worked for free for the church for like two years, um, didn't have money for gas, you know, and I finally got hired on um as a youth pastor at Christ Fellowship. And um, I remember I remember being hired on and being, I think I was 19 or 20. I think I was 19 when I first got when I first got hired as a middle school pastor. Uh sorry, it was middle school and high school. And uh it was it was uh a church in the Redlands in Miami and um a group of 60 kids, and you know, they were like, hey, you know, you want to see what God's gonna do. And so we grew it to 100 kids and celebrating all that. And then there was, you know, a time where I couldn't be on time to anything. Like I was late to every single thing. It was just like this, uh, I don't know, I mix one throw up. Um, and I had a great boss who said, Hey, if you're late one more time, you're done. And he loved me and he loved what God was doing. Hundred kids were growing, like things like the ministry was happening, good things were happening. So he said, if you're late one more time. And at this point, I was working two jobs. We're working at Pet Boys, because me and I were married, and she was a nursing school, she couldn't work, so I was like, all right. So I had to work two jobs um until she got finished for school. And so I was working at Pet Boys and a youth pastor part-time. And he said, If you're late one more time, you're done. And the next day, the next day, I was late. The next day. You think at that point you put alarms on, you're like, Yeah, I'm like, yeah, you know, I overslept, was late, and he said, You're done. And it didn't matter all what God was doing, he was teaching me a lesson that I hadn't been taught yet. And so these steps along the way, even in ministry, where I'm like, God, like this is my identity. He God was like, Your identity is not in the work, it's in me. And so kindly, constantly teaching me these lessons, teaching me lessons, you know. And so I was out of ministry for about a year, and I had a buddy who was playing a church on Miami Beach. And so we uh decided, okay, God's kind of calling us to the beach. And so we left our one the one one bedroom apartment, uh, paying $700 a month in Miami, which is unheard of, never gonna happen again, $700. Um, and we would have still been paying that right now because the guy who owned it was a church guy and was like, y'all pay $700 for the rest of your life. I was like, oh my gosh, um, and so we left that and moved to Miami Beach and doubled our rent. Um, and I was working at Pep Boys still, and we were driving back and forth for a long time. Um, and then we decided to move there, so we doubled our rent, and uh and then um I worked for the church again for free for about a year, and then that's when I got hired on to help plant the church at Miami Beach. And we did that for about two or three years. I became the campus pastor at the Miami Beach campus at the Fillmore Um Theater, and then they closed that church down, and then Jeff was like, What are you doing? I was like, I was like, I don't know, man, bring me to Nashville, and so we went to Nashville and that was it. And that's been kind of faithful ever since. So wow, that's kind of how I got here.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. I oh my gosh, that's crazy. I love it.
SPEAKER_01We'll be right back after this short break. T and Voices is now hiring qualified applicants to fill positions all across the state. You can be part of a growing team that puts the mental health of Tennesseans first and thrive in a compassionate work environment. To apply to join our team, log on to tinvoices.org slash employment. Welcome back.
SPEAKER_05Jeff, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you this, and this is where we begin to continue to get candidates. So we talk about, all right, got you here. I think about this day and age, uh a lot of research, and uh I speak from personal experience. The amount of individuals who no longer either enter and even more of the amount of individuals who are no longer believers that once used to be. Yeah, I think about the the the group that you're in, the or the group that you you work with now, that middle school age, that is a prime age of going through so much. They're they're at the height of, well, I'm not gonna say at the height, but they're in the midst of their identity crisis as an in their world. Especially think about where we are now. I tell people, well, I don't know if we're past pandemic, if we're in the pandemic, if we're we're somewhere around there, right? Yeah. Working through it, we're working through it. But I think about those kids who fear being able to talk about their things. How would you encourage them to be able to say, hey, this is a part of who I am? And while this may be outside of norm right now, uh how do how do we encourage them to still be comfortable to talk about religion or their faith or how they're feeling about it and they're in action?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, I think when you think about uh a person being comfortable to talk about faith, you gotta understand um a couple of things. I think the first thing you understand is if you aren't fully invested with your own kind of like if you're not all like kind of the blood, sweat and tears model, like you know, once you've given blood, sweat and tears to something, um, you're invested. And so um, and at that point, you're comfortable anywhere around it, you know, because you invested, you know, blood, sweat, and tears, tears into it. Um, and when it comes to your faith, it's no different. Um, so uh if if the kid is not invested, like if there's not their decision, um which that's where we kind of come to a head with a lot of meals for kids, um, at a certain age, um it's always gonna be mom and dad's faith, you know. Um, because mom and dad's bringing the church, mom and dad are probably praying with them, you know, at night, they're probably praying with them at the dinner table, they're probably you know trying to do family devotionals that probably last like six months, they stop, last three months, they stop. You know, there's like these times I'll trust I'm there, so I know I know like we're gonna read Genesis all the way through all year, six month thing. We're like, man, chapter six, we're done. We're done. Or let's watch Veggie Tales. I don't know. Somebody tell can somebody read, you know, but like we we're not doing this. Or we'll start next year. I don't know, you know. So there's a those families, especially in the South, there's that, you know, um that understanding, like, hey, we're we we're a Christian family, and so the kids kind of, you know, they're in it, you know, because the family, the mom and dad are in it. Once they once they have to make that decision themselves, things come a little a little different. And I think that's when the blood, sweat, and tears happen. And so, um, and that's why you see that's why you see the the the big drop off um after high school, because at that point, it's when okay, now you gotta start putting your blood, sweat, and tears into it. And when you start doing that, it becomes your your own and your and then they become comfortable to talk about it because they've had that investment component to it. If you can, if I can get a kid in middle school to start putting blood, sweat, and tears into their faith at an early age. Now, when I say blood, I'm talking about mission trip, work. No, I was gonna have dab it because you get catched. You gotta dab into it. Right, right. Yeah, I'm not talking about like you're like, oh, I gotta sacrifice. No, I'm just understanding, like you're working mission work, you know, you're out there, you get cut, get nicked up, like, oh man, and it's like you're helping an old lady, but you get cut by her fence, whatever, you may get bloody. Um, but like when you if I can get a kid to start to get that experience, those experiences early on, and they can start getting that buy-in of like, okay, I'm invested into this, then we can start to see that comfortableness start to kind of happen. Um, one one of the compliments to share, one of the things I have is exposure leads to expansion. So I'm I'm constantly trying to expose Mills for kids to different parts of ministry, different lives of ministry, different ways of ministry. Um, because I think once they get that exposure, that real exposure, their personal exposure, not mom and dad's exposure, mom and dad sharing their life experiences of what they've been through with Jesus. And those are all nice to hear, but they hear stories so much that sometimes they go in and out of the ear. And it's like, man, I've shared my faith in my kid. I hope that sticks. Until their faith is practiced and lived out, it won't stick like you want it to. It may stick to the point where they'll go to church and they won't rebel, they may go to the service and they won't rebel. But if you want them to be um, it's a stick where they can feel comfortable in a classroom setting this thing, let me tell you why my faith in Christ is real and how it's proven to be real over my circumstances and my exposure, then you're not gonna really see that until they get it and live it themselves. And so I'm constantly about, man, let's get out and let's do ministry, let's go feed the homeless. Um, let's go downtown, let's go see how people are living. Um, let's go um to help these projects connects and project 615, and let's go do let's go rub elbows with them and see what kind of mission work they're doing, and people who are you know coming out of addiction, and you know, and all this is done in a safe you know environment where man, we can keep our kids safe, and that's my main priority. And so I never want to put my kids in an unsafe environment, but man, we know that there's some places that have created some safe places for kids to see and be exposed, but not be harmed. And so I'm always constantly looking for you know positions and postures to put them in like that so they can see those things. Because I know at an early age that they can see those things and shed some sweat, so a little bit of blood, um, and they can see some things that can make them cry and move them to say, Oh my goodness, I didn't know this was out there. I know then they can move into a space where they can feel I don't care where I am, I know what I've experienced, I know what I've been exposed to, and I can share that wherever I am, whenever I am, around whoever I am, because I know what I've experienced myself. And I don't I don't know if that answers your question, but I just think that that that exposure is what middle school, high school, they all need it. And once they get exposed to certain things, I mean, have y'all been to a mission trip before? Have y'all been missions overseas?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, not overseas, not overseas, okay. So I've never left the country. Well, actually, I have. I went to Mexico on a cruise ship, but other than that.
SPEAKER_03I have not done a mission trip yet. I have not. Okay, so those are the ones that have wrecked me the most. Um, absolutely. I've been to Haiti, I've been to the Dominican Republic, and I've been to South Africa. And those have been when I came back, I'm like, I don't want AC ever again. It's just like just something similar, as small as that. It's like, and it just you won't be the same.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I was just gonna say, you say what you're gonna say then.
SPEAKER_05You'd ask if you answered the question, and I would say, yes. You you just told us a lot about well, the experiences that we've gone through. And I think about what we do, we we employ uh a lot of individuals with lived experience, those who have gone through something, maybe mental health uh substance use, and those who are parents who are now professionals who have children with mental health concerns, they are going out, and what they're doing is telling their story of, well, this is what I've been through, this is how I've gone through it, and this is how I've overcome it. And you can do the same. It may not look your story, it may be different from mine, but the outcome could be that hey, we're resilient and we've been able to push through and we can help someone else. So yes, yes, you answered the question. I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking a lot about well, a number of things. One, when you were talking about parents and you know, kids kind of living their parents' religion, their parents' beliefs, that kind of thing. How how often I as a parent make the mistake of okay, I need to pour into you. I need to tell you all these things that I experience so that you believe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Instead of trying to draw out of them where they are, what they're experiencing, and what's creating their questions and their beliefs and their concerns and their mind. And um I don't know, I just feel like, you know, listening to what you said for parents who are listening, maybe that's a tip for all of us is sometimes better to just stop talking and start asking questions and listening and make it okay for kids to question whether they do buy into this or not. I think that's something that kids are scared to say to parents when they know their parents are strong believers, but if they could get their questions answered. So how, you know, as a parent, I'm thinking through making it okay to say, I don't know, this doesn't feel real to me because that I think is what I saw at camp. Some kids came to me for counseling and said, I'm not sure it was real for me when I accepted Christ and experienced salvation in my young years of life. It's now something feels real and it's experiencing. I'm having. And it was hard to tease out in some scenarios. I mean, some of them, some of them, you know, saying to a child, well, actually, you're now experiencing the Holy Spirit. Like you're experiencing that that movement of the Holy Spirit that's drawing you to the Lord, you know, and you've never felt that before because you were on you, you had childlike faith. And you, you know, you were just so, man, those are all really important, I think, things for family, conversations for families to have, but making it an open, comfortable space for kids to say whatever is in that little head because it needs to come out, whether it's right or wrong, whether it's we don't want to hear it as a parent or we do, right? It's still better for it to come out and to be in the environment. But I I was thinking too something about your story. You talked about like this whole story was shaped on your identity crisis, if you will. Like this little juxtaposed, like, what is going on with me? Who am I? And now you're you're in the heart of working with kids at that very position in life where they're trying to figure out who am I? And I'm thinking, like, isn't it awesome though, how God uses somebody's true life experience to put you in a place that gives you more passion for where kids are right now? Because I will tell you after camp, I was like, I can do without middle schoolers for just a little while. No, not mine. The 13 I had were awesome.
SPEAKER_03Oh, of course. Of course.
SPEAKER_02But the other 450 were driving me crazy. And I was thinking, how does he do this all the time, week after week? And no matter where I go, what I do, whether it's the 4th of July celebration we had, whether it's church on Sunday morning, Wednesday night, you're always there. You're always there, either directing traffic to get to the right place or whatever. And I think, you know, you've got to have, just like we do for mental health, you've got to have that passion, that drive for where students are. So for that, the fact that my kids are benefiting from your life experience, thank you for that. Because I'm sometimes I need them to go hear from somebody else.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And my kids will need to hear from you at some point. Oh my gosh. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And then the last thing I was gonna say, and I was really just kind of thinking through what you were talking about with, you know, shaping kids' beliefs and values and and religion, but I was thinking more, I was thinking of it more in the realm of spirituality. It's like one of the reasons why, and Will, you asked the question, you know, how to make kids comfortable talking about their faith and and valuing their faith. And I was just thinking about how intimate spirituality is. It is a form like sharing your own spiritual journey, your own spiritual practices, your beliefs and values. It is a form of intimacy because that's a very, you know, um, that's a part that we've kind of been told we needed to just keep deep buried inside and not bother other people with that.
SPEAKER_04Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And and in some ways, that has really, I think, hurt kids in their spiritual development. I and I believe, and I've said this on other podcasts, that every person has physical, mental, social, and spiritual parts of themselves. Every single person. And it's not about your religion or your faith or your values. It there's a spiritual part of you that you have to address one way or the other. You have to because it exists. And so obviously, for you and I on this, you know, having this conversation for us that relates to filling that spirituality with the Holy Spirit and understanding our walk with the Lord and all that kind of stuff. Um, I think kids really, I think about how awkward they are in forming relationships. Like I see it, well, this is happening in my house right now with the 14-year-old, where I like this guy today and tomorrow, I don't like him anymore. And it's like, oh, there's so much going on there. They don't know how they feel, they don't know what they want, they don't know who they like. It's changing all the time. And I think that's true with spirituality for this age. And it's spiritual, it was like, how do we as parents continue to just foster that comfortability with intimacy of spiritual sharing and spiritual needs? And it's hard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. One one thing I hear from from the kids, um, and this is a with spirituality and just in life in general. Um, I always talk to a kid, kids, and I'm like, so why can why don't you tell your parents like the things you're telling me? They say, because they freak out, chef. I was like, what do you mean? Like they they they freak out and they don't know how to handle it. I'm like, oh, and so I don't know that that that's helpful for me to hear as I you know parent my my kids. Um I know it's hard to keep calm when you hear certain things, yeah. But the more you can keep calm and not overreact or not have a you could be you can be literally losing your mind inside of your body. Um, but if your face would communicate, we're gonna work through this. I'm calm. If you could do that, the kids can develop a trust. And it sounds so weird because I know I've lost my mind. I'm like, what? You did what? You can't draw on your sister's forehead with talk. I don't like whatever it is. Uh you know, just a permanent marker. Like, you can't do that. Um, and so but if you can keep calm, if we can as parents keep calm, when our kids share those things that are just like heart-wrenching for us, they will come back to the well for more, they will come back and trust us with more, even with and especially with spiritual stuff. So, like the the thing your parents, your kids would never want to do, they don't want to, especially at middle school age, mom and dads are still the heroes. Like, no, my kid hates me. No, I'm telling you, deep down in middle school, still they literally I don't say worship you, but you are their heroes. Yeah, and if you can continue to foster that trust and keeping calm, they they're gonna eventually start to come to you with more and more and more, especially spiritual stuff. And so Mama, I'm giving I'm leaving God. Okay, let's talk about that. And stuff we we are a Christian house, we don't we you know, as for me and my house, we will love the Lord. That's gonna be that's gonna no, I'm saying that's gonna mess it up.
SPEAKER_02It's not gonna help.
SPEAKER_03All right, let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Simple, yeah, and and I was thinking too, okay, so little throwback, this will be my final question. I too was a youth pastor, minister, whatever you want to call me. PK at 19. At 19.
SPEAKER_03Oh, oh, you were youth pastor at night.
SPEAKER_02Oh, nice. So I it was a little bitty country church in Puckett, Mississippi. Okay population of 300. Oh my goodness. Oh, I'm pretty sure there just was nobody else willing. And so they were like, Are you willing? And I said, Yes.
SPEAKER_03So let's go.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, I was thinking back about what were the things that were going on with kids at that stage, but I'm I'm 41 now, and I was 19 then. So here's my question to you. What trends? I mean, we're okay, so we're in mental health, we see stuff, we see kids, we see all the things happening with their mental health. What are you seeing that's going on with kids? Like kind of top of the list stuff that just keeps coming up over and over that you're like, oh, this is bad for kids right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Um, well, obviously top of the list is gonna be social media.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh Snapchat in middle school runs runs the world. Yeah, and you may think it's TikTok, Instagram, it's Snapchat. And it's because of the idea of being able to post and delete and it'd be gone forever. That is so enticing for a middle school kid. I'm I'm still trying to figure out why. Um but there's something to the idea of I can post something and delete it and hurt and hide and no one ever knows, or express hurt and delete and no one ever know, and kind of get it released. I'm still I'm still working on kind of diagnosing, I guess you could say, what the the the enticement is for middle school, but they they are addicted to Snapchat. Yeah. Addicted. Uh, and they can't really fully understand how to use it yet. Um, there was a girl who had to leave camp because she snapchatted a girl, screenshot, and um, sent to a girl, and um and the girl screenshot it and so and got caught, but they understand like we can also screenshot when you Snapchat certain things. So if you screenshot something fast enough, you know, you can you know catch somebody, but if you don't mess up, whatever. Um, so there's something about that for for kids right now that uh has allowed them to dissociate. Um, and you know, they're just they allow they're able to just distract themselves from reality through Snapchat. And so I think I think right now that's top of the list, and you know, with that, you have all you have all the things. You have bullying, you have sexting, you have all that that's happening on that platform because it's able to curtain hide in that space. Yeah, and so if your kid has it, I mean, I've already told my kids um at an early age, you're not having a a smartphone um in my house. Like if you can afford it when you leave, just go ahead. Um, but even if you're in my house and you're 18 years old, you're living here, like at 18, okay, they can have a smartphone, wait, whatever. So once they turn 18, that's what I'm saying. You can have your own phone and you can buy whatever phone you want. But until 18, I'm gonna try to protect them as much as I can with a flip with a flip phone. And so, and I know they're probably gonna get a burner phone because you so burner phones are real. Yeah, kids are bringing phones to school for their friends and literally using them. Um, and so there's things that I literally I'm not gonna be able to control. I know that. And so uh I understand that part of it, but I think for my part, I'm gonna allow them to not have any smart devices or social media until you know they're 18. I know that's strict, I know that's I know that's uh I know that's kind of out there.
SPEAKER_02Um it's not we we don't have social media in our house either, none of us, parents included.
SPEAKER_03Okay, it it's it's just one of those things where the anxiety, the numbers are there. I mean, you can look at anxiety, depression, distress, the suicidal rates, everything is just through the roof once you introduce social media. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um that's helpful. And they think like that in the world, yes, that is the that is the thing. I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't they don't see until until the kids see um I guess I guess it comes to the FDA, and I think they start the FDA starting to crack down on some things that you can't they can't sell jewels at the um gas station now. I saw the new report. Um, and so as that starts starts to come come on a crack, you'll see it kind of trickle down some kids and they won't do as much. But I mean it's just so accessible right now. And so what you know, the saying with with with with what you do in moderation, kids do in excess. And so, you know, they introduced something that was so accessible in moderation that tasted good. It wasn't cigarettes that taste bad, uh, whatever. It tastes good, and you can blow smoke out of your mouth. Oh so they're paying top dollar. I mean, so it's it's probably and I mean if I had to put a number on it, I mean, over 60% of parents, I mean, kids are probably you know involved with it at some point where I try at a party or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, it's my goodness. That quote, what you do in moderation, kids do in excess. Let's make I mean that is huge. I want I want to make sure listeners hang on to that one because I think that is true in so many ways. And wow. Wow. Man, all right. Will last thoughts for you. I I promise I'm I'm gonna stop now.
SPEAKER_05No, no, you you are you're good. It is it's so much that that you've given us to to work with, Jeff. And it's one our the fact that our grandmothers had the same last name. Random name connect there. And the random story from my end, and I think my parents would be okay with me sharing this. My my father, uh, in elementary school, you'll look at his report cards, and it was uh last name Harris. So my my grandparents were never married. And um, when my grandmother married my stepgrandfather, she started signing Willie Boss all the way up through high school. Well, when my parents were getting ready to get married, they were like, We don't have there's nothing on file for Willie Boss. There's no words or anything.
SPEAKER_02His name was Harris? Yes, and my You never told me this. Oh my goodness. Where are both Harris?
SPEAKER_05My mother, my mother will tell the story. She started bawling, crying, like, who am I married? So my stepgrandfather had to legally adopt my my uh my father so that we could keep the last name balls. So no way. All of that to say, as random as some of our stories may be, someone else is going through exactly what we have been through all over the world. So we tell everybody who comes on here that you've helped someone, you have connected with someone. So just through sharing your story, I want to personally say thank you, thank you, thank you. This will not be the last time we have you on because you have truly helped a listener out there. And now my boss is shocked because I can't my mind. Y'all could be related.
SPEAKER_02I mean, we have this thing where we we go by boss and boss, uh but now I think we should just be the Harrises or something. I don't know. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm kidding. That's amazing. Wow. Well, thanks for sharing that little nugget, Willie Voss Harris.
SPEAKER_05This is the Candid Podcast, so you learn more and more each episode.
SPEAKER_02There it is. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I love that. Well, Chef, it's been a pleasure. I cannot thank you enough for coming on and taking the time for this and for hanging out and loving all my kids while they're at church. So I appreciate you so much.
SPEAKER_03It's a pleasure. I'm telling you, it's a real pleasure. I appreciate you all having me on. Thank y'all for what you're doing. This is this is helpful. I didn't know y'all existed. And um, I'm glad I found you guys and glad you all found whatever how how this happened. But um, I think y'all are doing some real good work. I think mental health is huge, um, especially in teenagers and middle school and high school adults. It's just this is helpful. This is really good. Really good. Awesome, awesome, awesome.
SPEAKER_02Well, enjoy your Wednesday off.
SPEAKER_03I will.
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_03See you soon.
SPEAKER_01Bye-bye. Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed today's program, like, subscribe, and review this podcast. If you or someone you know is in need of mental health support services, log on to tnvoices.org or call 1-800 670 9882. Join us next time as we get candidate.