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Can+Did, a TN Voices Podcast
Can+Did, a TN Voices Podcast
Let's talk leadership and merging
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CEO Rikki Harris invites TN Voices' COO Will Voss and Chief Innovation Officer Kristen Davis to join and talk about learning to lead and what the merger taught us. Tune in for tips and some vulnerability as we talk about the come up and impact of owning the influence we have.
There we go. All right. Well, uh, Will, we're back for season two, uh, Candid Podcast. And you all know that our season one podcast episode started with me talking about a merger and going on and on about a very special person who's on this podcast today, Kristen Davis. So um I'm excited for you, for you all to hear from these two leaders. I think what we'll do is start with each of you. Uh, Kristen, you can start. Just give us like the two to three minute journey of your leadership roles. Like, where did you start in management? What age and where, what titles have you had? And just give us the kind of basic outline.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So, hi everybody. I'm so excited to be here with you all. Um, my management journey probably started when I was five because I was the quote unquote bossy kid, um, which we now know translates to leadership. So I liked to manage my siblings and um much to their dismay, uh, that's probably where I started. But um I figured out really early on in my um teenage and college years that I wanted to work directly with kids. Um and very quickly learned that um clinical work was not necessarily my forte. I liked it quite a lot, but I really felt like my biggest skill set and impact was in leadership and management. And so I was able very fortunately to start my career in mental health, which I've said a lot, this is like a full circle moment for me. Um I worked in inpatient mental health, I worked in school-based therapy. Um, so it was, it really was full circle for me and went into prevention because of the impact that I saw on um, in particular, the teenagers that I worked with who'd had struggles with mental health and had really had trauma in their life. And so at that point decided to move into prevention. So I'm really thrilled to be able to bring these under one roof, but um was really lucky to have great, in particular, women mentors in my life and uh became the director of programs for Nurture the Next pretty quickly after finishing graduate school and then moved into the CEO role. Uh it was interesting, one year after my daughter was born. So uh I had a one-year-old and uh five-year-old at the time, six-year-old, and then took this position. And so my world kind of collided in terms of being a leader in my home, trying to be a leader of my family, and being a leader at work and um was really lucky to be able to have that opportunity. So now I just joke that they can't get rid of me. So being at Tennessee Voices is another iteration that I'm really just excited to see where we go together. Awesome.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Uh Will, tell us about your uh your very early journey into management.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So so, Kristen, I will tell you. Um, my sister calls me her big little brother, but she would not let me claim that fame of managing the family just yet. Um I I will tell you my journey. I would say it started uh in my college years while I was down at Ole Miss. I was working an after-school program and we were site managers, making sure we were collaborating with the with the schools and making sure that curriculum was ready to go and we were engaging with those students, coordinating with parents. It was a great, great time. Um it was a lot of work uh and what we thought was a lot of work then, but we enjoyed ourselves during that time, making sure we were managing the program to success. And it was nonprofit to believe it. Uh, I will tell you that as far as the title came, I was 26 when I became a program manager over one of our uh system of care contracts, um, funded through SAMHSA. So it was a lot of learning. Like, what are these acronyms and what does this mean to be a part of something federal? And then when you find out that an initiative came out of uh of different things that have occurred in the world and you're making an impact across the state, that was a huge thing for me. And it was no longer about the title, it was more about the impact that I was making. And someone had recently asked how long had I been in a CEO role, and it feels like it's been 30 something years, but it's only been four. And there's a lot that I've learned. There's a lot that I've learned over this time. It has been an exciting leadership journey uh to be at different levels. And Kristen, you and I, we've talked behind the scenes about how our moments have become full circle and starting off in early childhood and now being in mental health. And you did the mental health early childhood, now you're back. Welcome.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Between the two of us, we'll get it all figured out, right?
SPEAKER_00We will get it all figured out. We will get it all figured out and make sure everyone understands how these things overlap and mental health is intertwining at all. But it is it's been an amazing journey, amazing journey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's so funny. We all have we all have some of similar experiences for sure. Uh, I can relate to a lot, a lot of that. Uh briefly, I started uh my first management job. I think, okay, here's what's funny. Well, I did after school work too. And I didn't get to be the site manager. The site manager was only one person. I was a site coordinator.
SPEAKER_00Look at you.
SPEAKER_02Um, so my first job that sent manager, I was 23 in a mental health community mental health organization. And um boy, was that was that wild. Uh so anyway, 23 years old program manager, then on to a uh therapy therapist for a little while, and then a therapist development team under a pretty big umbrella called Multisystemic Therapy, pretty, pretty intense program. Led that for a while, then became a director. I my boss who hired me at that company was awesome. And she uh we became peers shortly after, and then I became her boss. And she was the kindest, most helpful person in my life in my early stages of being a manager because she embraced the fact that I was her her new boss and I was 20 years or more her junior. Wow. Um, and she had been a supervisor at that company for her for pretty much 20-year career there. And um anyway, we'll get into that kind of stuff later. But from there on on to Tennessee, where I joined at Tennessee Voices, uh director of development and marketing for a couple of years, and then CEO since 2014. You got 7-Eleven 2014. So just a couple of days ago was mine was April 2014, Ricky. So okay. Yeah, and I remember we started the same year in our roles, which was wild. I knew Kristen, and um, we both have been in the organizations we were with, and and then both became CEOs. And yeah, so we'll get into all that. I would love to know who was a role model for you all as you were on the come up in your journey toward executive leadership.
SPEAKER_01Well, I can I can jump in and go first. Um, I think that when we when I began my work, we were prevent child abuse Tennessee. And the newly minted director, Carla Stnodgrass, hired me to do parent education groups and home visiting. So I started in the field and then moved into a program director role. And we were such a tiny team, literally two of us, um, at one point. And one of the things that she consistently said to me is we can try whatever we want because there's no fear of failure for us. Uh, and we are we are in this environment where we were able, and she allowed me such room to just innovate, try new things. And some of the things I look back on and think, I cannot believe she let me do that. Um because I would come back jazzed and and well, like you, I was in my in my early 20s and thought we can just do whatever we want, we can conquer the world. But she never put that light out. She always let me dream and do and create. And so I was always just so grateful to her in particular after she retired because I did not realize how rare that was at that time. I just thought, oh, this is how this is how grown-ups work. They just, you know, create and innovate. And so after um learning from her and realizing how rare that was, uh, I was just blown away. And so I think that she created in me this desire to um be really thoughtful about the things that we're not doing that we could do. And even as a small team, she never limited us in what we could and couldn't do. Like if I, if I was willing to craft it, create it, write it, do it, execute it, she was giving me the reins, which was just such an incredible environment in which to work and learn as a as a newly minted social worker to do that work. So I would say that she is one of my, in terms of my professional development, one of my number one mentors. And I always say personally, my number one mentor is always my mother. You know, I'm I've talked about um being five and being bossy, and I learned that from my mother and my grandmother, come from a very long line of very um just uh really amazing women and who manage their homes, who uh really helped create these beautiful childhoods. Um, and and had, you know, even though there was not perfection, she always worked to make sure that we had our needs met. So I think she was my my first. So that's two in a long line of of when in particular female mentors that I think have been really inspirational to me.
SPEAKER_02Funny that that those impacts uh really allowed you to what I know about you is it exercise your strength of being very visionary. And then what led you to this path now in a role titled Chief Innovation Officer. That's right.
SPEAKER_01That's unbelievable. It is. And and I know, Ricky, when you and I first started to talk about the merger and what role I could play in the organization, and innovation came up and I was like, that's it. That's what I want to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's awesome. And that's just sort of always been part of who you are, how you are. That's pretty cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Will I just go? I'm so glad you went first, Kristen, because I was going through the list. Like, how many do I name? How much time do I have? I will just I'll go with a few. I I'll start off one with my dad. Um, if he was here today, we would be joking, going back and forth, um, because he he ended his career as BP of ops, and I would be able to say, hey, I'm the chief over here, over operations, and he would get a great kick out of that. Um, but also be so proud. He was an operational guy with an operational mindset in everything that he did. But one of the things that I truly hold dear is how he led. Um, so he he worked for uh uh a company and and they did logistics across nationwide. And he would tell me sometimes when he'd get home, you know, yep, had lunch with the guys down in the warehouse. I'm like, huh, why is that? And he would say, you have to know your people. You you sit down and you get to know people just by listening and connecting. And he said, son, I started off working when I was 14 at a, I say hibachi for y'all listening, but it's hibachi.
SPEAKER_03Oh boy.
SPEAKER_00Working at a hibachi restaurant, making minimal wage. He said, and now I'm over logistics for a nationwide supply chain industry. And you look at how things work in mysterious ways and how you become blessed. He said, but a lot of how I lead is remembering that I started out in the kitchen. So we're making sure that we're getting restaurants exactly what they need to survive and thrive. So I take that into consideration with my leadership and I think about that because when I started here, I was a case manager, a care coordinator. And I've been able to see what it's like to really be boots on the ground and frontline. Um, the other, I would say, um, her name is Bethany. Um, when I graduated from college, I was trying to figure out what it is that I really want to do and I dove into the early childhood work. And y'all, this is a uh millennial raised by baby boomers, very old school mindset. I printed my resume and walked door to door to places saying, Hey, will you hire me? And she took a chance with this young guy who all he had was a degree in hand and that site manager position on his resume. And and she saw something in me that I didn't even see in myself. Uh, she saw the potential to to thrive and be able to make an impact. And then I gotta say, you, Ricky, being here 10 years, you were like Bethany. You saw this potential in me that I didn't even realize. Um, when I went and got my degree grad school, the path was to become a therapist here. And you were like, You sure about that? Let's rethink it. Let's rethink it. You you you've got some ideas and things in place. And it was it was a matter of again, like, all right, wow, a leader who saw something in me that I didn't see in myself, and and giving me an opportunity. So there are many more I can name, but I'll stop there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, that's actually a perfect transition to the next question I wanted to ask. And I'm curious to to know your thoughts. Are leaders born or are they made?
unknownBoth.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_00Both.
SPEAKER_01What do you why do you think that, Will? I'm curious. Why do you think that?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I would I would say I think there's stuff going on, uh, I'll say prenatally. Um, when you're thinking about like development, uh and especially with children, and then we think about upbringing, um, the influences that are coming both from from family, extending family outside, especially as you matriculate. There's a lot that does influence your leadership skills and ability and even the want to do it. Uh I speak with people who are very much, I want to lead thousands. And then I also speak with people saying, I want to lead in the in the as an individual contributor. So I I do think that there's some brain development and there's some nurture nature items that go on where you're I think it's both.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I was gonna say exactly that, Will. I think that the way we typically think of the definition of leadership is you're up in front of people, you know, leading the masses, and um you're visually there and present, and you're you're seen and you're heard. And I think that we have to expand our definition of leadership. Like you said, the individual contributor. Everybody has the ability to be a leader where they are. Now that's different kinds of leadership. You know, I talked a little bit about my my mom was a leader of our home. And that was her skill set and her forte, and and raising children was her her ever-long dream. So then you've got folks who are like Ricky, leading a team of, you know, 250 people and and with big vision and desire to grow, and everything in between. So I know in our work, even we've talked about um similar to what I've shared about my mom, is the the parents who can lead with their authenticity and lead with their voice and lead with their lived experiences. That is leadership. I think given the um right tools, the right support, the right encouragement, um, everybody has the ability to lead exactly where they are. Now that's, I think our job is to figure out how to influence them in a way where they want that. Um, because not everybody has that level of support to be able to cultivate that desire, uh, which is what we I think really want for our entire team and for the people that we serve. We want them to feel comfortable and confident and brave and you know, willing to to step out of their comfort zone. So, and that's leadership.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I went with both. I'm not surprised. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00We got we gotta hear from you. What are you thinking? Which one if you want to do that?
SPEAKER_02I was gonna go on to the next question. Oh, okay. No, uh I I think there's a lot of characteristics that are that come with you at birth that make you a person who is um embodying all the characteristics that it takes to to be organized, to be courageous, to be um to have the will and motivation, but also have the tenacity and ability to hang in there through hard things. And I I agree there's lots of opportunities in our lives to lead, and that can be come in a lot of forms. But when I'm thinking of it as um someone who steps into a leadership role with a title, with a commitment of their career per se into leadership, I do think I have seen over my career that there are just people who are sort of wired in a way that doesn't exhaust them to lead. And I've seen other people want to lead and want to be there, but I've seen them burn out because they weren't wired in a way that that just made that easier. I don't think it's wrong to do it if you're not wired that way. That's not what I'm saying. But I do, I do see a little bit of a common characteristic when I see very successful leaders. And I think, God, they had to have been born that way because there's just the, and I see it in my kids too, you know. Um, and I've talked with other parents who you know early on when your kids the one raising their hand to be the president of 4-H Club or the leader of the, you know, student government or whatever it is, you know, they're just always like craving those opportunities and um and it's natural for them. You just see it. You can you can just tell they're not they're not stressed out by it. It's just like it it lights them up. And I I think there's so much of that in in leaders who are able to sustain a career that uh involves being responsible for bigger things, bigger, bigger groups of people, um, bigger companies, that kind of thing. So anyway, um, but then there's a whole butt whole bunch of learning that goes into it, which really leads me to my next question about what what is what is the mistake you've made in leadership that has taught you the most? Um yeah, I know we gotta be real here.
SPEAKER_00This this is the candid podcast. This is the candid podcast, right? It is, it is.
SPEAKER_01Which one to start with?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, is it bad that I was sitting here like how many times have I said, um, if my English professor, Ms. Davis, was on, she would be like, oh, oh Will, oh Will. I was already thinking about my mistakes. Oh, I did it again. I would say this is vulnerable listeners leading through frustration without understanding what the frustration. Frustration is something that my coach recently was talking to me about. We were playing out a scenario and he stated to me, Now remove the frustration. Does it change the outcome? And I had to sit in it. And I recognize there are many times where I'm I'm I'm frustrated about one thing or one task, and it could be a prioritizing, right? I need to get something done before this, but this is also a need as well. And I'm not allowing myself to sit in it enough to understand what is the actual core of this frustration, where is this coming from? And it messes with the end result and how a decision gets made.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think mine uh is making assumptions. And I think very early on, um, you know, I think we've all experienced as leaders really difficult and hard moments, leading a staff, leading people, leading a program. And I have certainly been guilty of making assumptions about why people behave the way that they behave and why they make the choices that they make, which then completely changes how I react to them because I'm coming in with an assumption that may not be true at all. And uh most of the time I would say 99% of the time is not true. But it it's changed the way I react, the way that I treat people, the way that I intervene, um, the things that I the tools, the tools I use from my toolbox to try to persuade, influence, move them along, because I'm not starting with what's true and real for them. I'm starting with what I assumed was the situation and what I assumed they were going through or what I assumed they were thinking or feeling or or wanting to express. So I think having to learn very early on in one-on-one communication, group communication, program communication, whatever it may be, trying to start with the root of how did we get here and why are we here? Instead of coming in with my assumptions on what's happened or what's occurred to lead us to the point where we're in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That makes sense. Mine definitely is early in my career avoiding conflict was my downfall. Um I'm writing a book right now, have a whole chapter on this piece because I think avoiding conflict was such a breakdown in getting to what I think is really, really helpful in learning to give good feedback. And those two things do not exist together. You cannot give good feedback and avoid conflict at the same time. And avoiding, I mean, I need to say conflict, but avoiding hard conversations, avoiding harder um conversations, difficult things. I had to learn early on. I I was a middle child. There was a lot of conflict in the sibling bunch in my house. I was the please, let's just all be like make peace. Uh, definitely was just to give me, you talk about early, early, early, two, three years old, when my little sister, who's only 18 months younger than me, would be given a bath, she would cry. She hated bath time, and then I would cry. And so they would have to, my grandmother lived next door, so they'd have to take me to my grandmother's house to give my sister a bath because I just didn't want anyone to be upset. I just couldn't handle people being upset. And that was such a bad thing for me as a leader. So I had to figure out how to unlearn that avoidance. And uh it took a it took a long time to find what felt authentic to me in embracing difficult conversations. I read a great book early on called Fierce Conversations. It's old now. I highly recommend it. Still really, really good. There's a newer version called Difficult Conversations by another author that I think people really like. I liked Fierce Conversations because it sort of connected that courage needed to lead to this avoidance of conflict peace for me. It connected the dots. Like I could no longer be responsible for a company and avoid conflict because it was now my responsibility to address difficult things. And by avoiding it, I was actually not owning up my responsibility or living up to my responsibility. And boy, if anybody's taking the Cliftons, you know, responsibility for me is number one. Actually, belief is number one, responsibility is number two. So it's uh it's a big deal in my world to meet my responsibilities. So um, with that, I think all of these lessons, and these are just examples, I'm sure there's more, but these lessons change us over time as leaders. So, how do you see yourselves in you know careers that have span a decade and more? How did how are you changed as a leader from beginning to now? A lot.
SPEAKER_00Like we only we only have so much time set aside, Ricky. Right.
SPEAKER_01Okay, it's all right. I mean, I I think for me, overall just maturity and patience. And um in the beginning, it was so easy to in the beginning of my leadership journey, so easy to just lose my patience. And one of the things I think going back to Ricky, what you shared about with the leaders can just get burned out so quickly. And I think that's one of the things that when I started to feel burned out throughout my career, because everybody experiences it from time to time. Absolutely. One of the things that I knew that led to that and contributed that to that the most was my desire to fix things really quickly because I was too impatient to sit in the hard things. I wanted to get to a resolution and move on. And so as life goes on and we experience personal things that make us practice patience, and we experience professional things that make us practice patience, it just becomes a much easier uh thing to tap into. And so I think that that's been helpful to me is to not immediately feel like this has to be fixed immediately, or the world will crumble. It's not gonna crumble, it's gonna be hard. And that's okay. We can sit in the in those hard things, and that's one of the things that I've been encouraged by through learning patience is to sit in hard things. And one of the things I've often told other people is, will you just be uncomfortable with me for a little while? Because there's no quick solution. And so patience is, you know, a sister to discomfort. And just asking people, just just be uncomfortable with me for a little while. I you don't have to like it, it's not gonna feel good. Nobody, no human being wants to sit in uncomfortable things. We're wired to get to the good parts of life. That's what we want to do. Um, but I think that's one of the one of the hundreds of lessons that I've learned and one of the ways I've changed over the course of my leadership out of the hundreds I could list. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's good. I definitely I can agree with those, Kristen. I will say I I would I think for me, it's allowing myself to be okay and not knowing. I was very much that leader that I I gotta have an answer to this. I have to know, I have to be the one to do it. And it plays a little bit into what you were saying, Kristen, about wanting to be that fixer. I'm such a fixer in my family, and I bring that into my work life. And hey, yes, I know this, and I I got this cover, and I'm gonna get this done. And then I had to realize over the years, well, I have a team. I brought in a competent team. The they have these this level of expertise that they bring. This is what we do when we make decisions and how we continue to grow and lead. I have to lean on them the same way they're leaning on me. And it's okay to not know certain things. And I I used to struggle giving an answer of I don't know. I just say, hold on, let me let me figure this out, or I would I would um fill it with the I utilize a lot of filler language, put it like that, to make it seem like I was just this oh great, competent leader that's done this for X amount of years, and all I really had was that site management experience at that time. But but it's being vulnerable enough with myself to be able to go out and get that answer and let people know hey, I don't know, but we're gonna figure this out. Doesn't mean that it ends there and it's gonna stop and all drops. We don't know, we don't know. No, we're gonna figure this out together. And these are also some people you can lean on because we brought them in for a reason and they're leaders as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, mine is a little a little similar, uh, but I think learning to lead from a small group of people, 20 people in the organization when I started to becoming a leader, now 250 or so staff, and having a really competent team of chiefs around me and figuring out how to um what my role is. And so that has changed so many times. There's been so many versions of CEO of T Voices and CEO Ricky over 14 years because the the size of the organization and the scale demanded different things of me over time. And I had to let go of some behaviors, adopt new ones, let go of behaviors, adopt new ones. And just when I thought I had it sort of sorted and figured out, we would grow again. And then that was the goal, right? We we were that was that was the effort. But then once that would happen, bring on new team members to help manage more of the growth and then learning to keep evolving. And I I say all the time, I am I'm not an expert leader, I'm an expert learner because I just have to keep figuring it out. It's not about having already figured it out and and going into it with like, I know exactly what I'm doing here. It's more so trusting intuition and and letting go of things that don't serve me as we scale and owning things that that would serve the organization better, even if I don't want to move in that direction, because there's been a lot of times I'm sure Will can attest. I mean, we can be real here, but I'd I'd like to know everything that's happening in operations.
SPEAKER_00Um this is this is a fact.
SPEAKER_02And then there's also times when I'm like, I just can't. I just can't. I I have to just trust what the operations team is doing here. And um, and then I'll ask a bunch of questions and then I'll think, what am I gonna do with this information? You know, yeah, uh ultimately. So it's it's just that it's just that figuring out how much to move and how far to move away from the details and toward the future. And that's been my constant journey is moving away from the details, letting the competent people on the team handle them and keep moving toward the future. And while some may look at it and say, well, that seems to be working, right? You've you've scaled and grown. It it does, but it's a constant effort of me trying to let go and and move ahead and let go, move ahead. And uh that is not that is not always easy when when you know that at the end of the day, you are responsible as the leader for whatever has happened, will happen, and is happening. And that's that's a difficult thing.
SPEAKER_01Um I think Ricky was why a lot of organizations don't grow because they don't have leadership that are willing to do that. And it's not linear. You don't get to the end and think, well, I've I've won, I've figured this out. And as an organization grows, everything that you do as a leader changes. And the organization changes, the culture changes, the climate changes, the issues that we need to tackle change. And so I think that's one of the reasons that I was so thrilled about the merger was because having a leadership team and a board of directors that is incredibly growth-minded and incredibly innovation focused because there's not a lot of, in particular, nonprofits that are interested in doing that work. So for sure.
SPEAKER_02For sure. And getting out of your own way. I have a chapter in my book, something like the CEO is not okay. Like, how do you get out of your own way for the sake of growth of the company? And that is one of two things. You either recognize your limits and and move, or you you go figure out how to change and how to keep getting out of the way of the company's growth. Because you're right, so much of what a company can do hinges on what a leader is willing to do. And sometimes that's just getting out of the way a little bit and letting people come in and and lead, which is hard uh and requires a lot of trust. A lot of trust. And so maybe that's a great next question to kind of move toward building people, building culture. You guys have teams, you have people that have worked for you. How do you build trust on your team? How do you how do you do that? Will how do you move to accepting the competence of the people on your team and letting them have it when you know that like you might be able to do it quicker, faster, better. But maybe that's not true.
SPEAKER_00I will be honest, I I had to I had to check myself. I am a I'm a I'm a big risk taker, not outrageous, right? I I'm not gonna go skydiving, but I've done indoor, that's my max.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00But but with that in mind, I also I have to recognize well, what does that look like for my team if I'm ready to take these high risks? And I know something you and I talked about, Ricky, as well, is you know, in you letting go, you've got to be able to trust that these decisions that I'm making, are they data-driven? Or is it just me ready to just get into the next best thing? Listening to my team and hearing them being able to be vulnerable with me as far as all right, what's the struggle? What are concerns and what are barriers? Because as I continue to push growth and and we're trying to get to that next level to level up, well, if that's what I want, how can I help support that? I end every I end every supervision with, is there anything that you need from me? And I don't just say it lightly, and that turns into task related or hey, there's some support that we need on the on the side of just listening to what's going on right now. And in that you begin to think through your strategies and recognize, well, I didn't know that thing that I struggled with for the longest I I didn't know. And let's let's collaboratively work through some some ways to solution this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And that those moments also teach us when we're when we might be in the team's way of their success. And uh learning that that piece you said about creating enough vulnerability for them to speak to you and tell you gives you a window and opportunity to know when to get out of the way for them or when to remove a barrier. Mine is always uh I'm probably holding somebody up because I haven't responded to an email, given that thing that's been asked, uh, my schedule's too crazy and I can't meet with you for three days. Like those are the kinds of things that I that's really hard for me to accept because I know that that gets in people's way. And so solutioning, solutioning my myself out of the way um by getting an assistant to help me keep keep some of those things moving was one way of just not only helping myself, but building that trust with my team uh that they can tell me when they need something or they just need me to let them do something. Just let me have it, which also kind of leads to building psychological safety. This is another big point in the book that I'm writing about right now is building psychological safety. Kristen, as a CEO of an organization, I would love to hear from you kind of how you did that with Nurture the Next and creating psychological safety in the culture and what that looked like for you.
SPEAKER_01So it's a really great question. Um I had this conversation recently with someone about um our culture was always a work in progress. Like we never reached perfection. We we reached uh stability. And I think we reached points at which what we've created is perfect for right now. But what we've created that's perfect for right now may not work in a year, three years, five years. So it's ever evolving, ever changing. And I think that's where we are now post-merger, is we are brand new. This is brand new and creating that culture and helping people grieve what they may be not wanting to lose and losing, and also feel excited about what has what they have opportunity to access because of where we are, and not ignoring either. Um and I do think people like to have space to say, man, I'm really sad that this isn't the way this is for this particular thing anymore. And you know, acknowledging that and saying, I hear you, and I understand, and here's the ways in which um I acknowledge that and also how I want you to see what's coming. And um again, sit in the discomfort with me and see what's coming. And and I think that for me, it was always really important that I would never ask people to do something I wasn't willing to do myself in terms of uh I'm not gonna make it easier for myself to change, move, grow, if if that's not gonna make it easy for you all. So I will I will also be willing to be uncomfortable. I will also be willing to grieve what's lost. Uh so I think being trustworthy is like such a big deal to me. And and you know, I always want to be seen as trustworthy to everybody that I engage with, and it's such a huge deal to me. So I think just trying to be authentic and trying to be real and showing people that this is what we're doing right now, no matter what that thing is, creates opportunity. And I also hear you that you know, we're also letting go of some things that we really loved. And maybe there's sadness in that and giving people space to to talk about those things. And, you know, having been at Nurture the Next for 23 years, we had times when our culture was amazing and we were ticking along and we felt everybody, I would say, felt very psychologically safe and moving along. And there were times when it was more challenging. And I think that that is perfectly appropriate and normal. And but I think it's when we move into a space where people are more comfortable that they're like, oh my gosh, how can we get back as quickly as possible to that place of comfort? Um encouraging that that is a very normal thing. And if we're not hurting from time to time, then we're probably not growing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Interesting. Well, let's get into it then. Let's talk a little bit about uh what we all just experienced in our first, what I would say, sort of major decision within the organizations, respectively, to merge. When I say major decision, obviously we've we've both organizations had grown, both had scaled from where they had started. We've done some really cool and unique and fun things within the organization, but this merge was probably a heavier lift than anything either one of Us had done in terms of the number of actions that needed to be taken to make it work, but also a high number of people that needed to be moved through this process with us as well. So, you know, you're moving about 80 people through the process on your end, Kristen. I'm moving about 170 or so people through the process. And when we were smaller and there were fewer people, and we had more one-on-one relationship and more time to cast vision and talk to people, that was a lot easier. But now it's a little bit harder. And uh and it's a new process for both of us. And we're coming up with a plan and we're reading up on everything, and we have a vision and strategy in mind, and we're trucking along. And it I want to get into talking about like some of the challenges for us as we led, but I also want to sort of acknowledge that like this was a first time for us to go through this. Uh, and it really was a learning as well as a growing opportunity. And while we're learning and growing, which is all great, there are 250 people impacted by each step that we take. And as we're taking the steps we think are right, then we we were even met with some changes, some curveball thrown at us a couple of times. We're like, ooh, everything we thought we were gonna do, we're gonna have to pivot this way and 45 degrees and go another direction, and then explain to all those people like, hey, don't worry, don't worry, don't worry, just just stay on the boat. We're just kind of course correcting a little bit. And I and I think we learned a lot. We I think we did a lot of things right. I think we did a lot of things well, and I think we also learned a ton about what we could do differently. And I would love to kind of pick both of your brains, think about if there are leaders listening that are contemplating big change in their organizations based on lessons you've learned. Like what tips would you throw out there? How would you how would you say, hey, here's some things to think about right off the top as you prepare for this?
SPEAKER_01Will you want to go first?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can I can kick it off.
SPEAKER_01Give me time to think.
SPEAKER_00I will say one, lean into lean into your own emotions about it and make sure that you are listening to the emotions of your team. Hitting the core of what's driving it. I know that fear was at the at the height of one of my emotion going into the merger. Like, what is this gonna happen? Uh, it was like uh when you you get a symptom and you Google WebMD. I started I started Googling what happens with the COOs during mergers, what does this look like for nonprofit? Oh, I Google, I Googled so much, and I started allowing that to drive how I was feeling about it, and I was missing the the beauty in what it could be because I was so focused on what could go wrong, what could go wrong, what could go wrong. And a lot of that was passed on to my team, I believe. Like, hey, are they feeling what I'm feeling? And and am I talking about this in a positive light? Am I leading the way that I know I can and how I've led when we've added new grant contracts and programs and villable services? Why is this any different? Uh so so again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier about I have to check check myself. I don't like doing it, but as a leader, if I want to be successful, I have to do it a bit more often than I than I want to.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And understanding what I could be uh driving in my team as far as fear, hearing from them, what is the emotion? So when they say there they had fear in some areas, really sitting with them to understand why. What's your fear around? What's the core of it? It ranged from a variable of things that I was able to address because I asked the questions, and we were able to come together and say, well, a lot of it is around change, fear of change. A fear is not a fear of change, then it's a fear of how fast something is changing. So there's a lot that I would say lean into the emotions, but also make sure your team is aware of how you're truly feeling about it and address that. Don't leave it hanging.
SPEAKER_02Wow. So there was a lot in there.
SPEAKER_00I know we're not gonna unpack it, so I'm passing it to Kristen.
SPEAKER_01That's all good though. Like as you're talking, I'm thinking about oh my gosh, it's so true. Um and for me personally, I was moving from a CEO role, working directly with my board and um being sort of the buck stops with me into a different role. And so I tried to think about what that meant for me and process through that with Ricky, process through that with my coach, and process through that for myself. So being careful not to overly place that on the team, that you know, I'm coming to them saying, well, I'm giving up all of this stuff. So they didn't freak out, right? About um, oh my gosh, who's in charge? But also acknowledging that this is new for me too. And this is the first time, and it won't be perfect, it won't be exactly what we, you know, vision may change or, you know, we may have to pivot. But I think for me, what I've always said and continue to say, and what I would say to anyone considering a merger, a collaboration, a change, the number one thing is does this align with our mission? And does this benefit the people we serve? And if you can articulate both of those things well and you continue to hold that as your as your North Star, what happens to me and my fear and my position and my personal angst about it is less relevant because I can do those hard things if I know ultimately that this is mission-driven and it's going to impact the people that we serve and it's gonna make things better in the community. So it's so hard though when you're experiencing change and people around you are experiencing change, just kind of drawing them back to that, like ever drawing them back to that, and and not saying a discount what you're feeling or you know, just eyes on the prize, but I hear you, and this is how this will benefit us. And you know, I mentioned earlier giving people space to grieve, things that they've lost. And it's such a delicate balance of allowing time to grieve and not letting things get stuck. And so that's I think one of the lessons that I've learned is how to balance some of that work too, and continuously pointing to the mission as a way to not get stuck and to not get stuck in the I'm just sad and I don't want to move forward because I'm just sad about we're losing what was. So I think at the at the end of the day, those are the things to look at. And I know the three of us read books and articles and TED Talks and watched things about mergers, and there's just so little about nonprofit mergers in particular who are doing this for a mission focus reason. And every everything I read was like, here's the top five things to remember in a merger. And one of them was always culture. I mean, have you know three lines about don't forget your culture. Okay, well, what does that mean? Um, and so I think that's something that we've had to figure out a little bit as we've gone along. And the three of us have built culture over and over and over in the past couple of decades, and we're doing it again and encouraging people that we're doing this again and it is doable. We've done it before. And um, it's never ending, but we are thoughtful and aware of it. That was a really rambly answer, but that's that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_02I think this question is probably gonna be the most valuable aspect of this episode for people who are leaders who want to grow and are looking at opportunities to innovate and are thinking about the courage to move in a direction that is, to your point, Kristen, mission focused and removes ourselves as leaders and puts our focus, our sights on what's good for the organization and the people that it's meant to serve. And building out then a legacy, which I want to get to. I I will say one of the things definitely when I look back, that's probably the most difficult is because I have learned so much to work in the future, I've thought long and hard about what choice I'm about to make. And when I get to the point of making that choice, I've considered it all. I've I've gone through the nauseating up-down what if, why not, but what. Um, you know, all the questions. I've probably even talked to people on my board and important people who need to be part of the decision to ensure that I've checked myself against some other people who have the same interest of protecting the organization and growing the organization in mind. And so I arrived there with 100% confidence. And I make that decision. It's like I've answered all the questions that could linger out there for myself in terms of evaluating a decision. And then I think I where I lost a little bit of patience was just, okay, this is what we're doing. Don't make it hard for us. Just don't make it hard. Because it will, because we're doing it. And it's that little point in between of entertaining the concerns and the fears and and and learning how to entertain it, hear it, listen to it, but also still say, but we're still doing it. Because I without without reservation and with all conviction know that this choice is right. And um, and and and holding both that confidence against the concern and trying to you know create a space for for it to be okay. And I think what it lends itself to is maybe this, maybe this temptation to make a lot of promises and say, you know, it's gonna be perfect. And if I learned anything, it's not perfect, it won't be perfect. No change is perfect, no big thing, no hard thing, uh, no brave thing is easy. And it won't work out exactly how we hoped, but it will be again, against all all odds, the right thing if you have the confidence in the mission and the people who will who will benefit from that decision. And so it's very hard to balance all that. And I think if I do it again, I hope that I will have the patience and confidence to say, I can promise you it will not go perfectly. The flight will have turbulence, the changes will be difficult, we will weather this storm because the outcome is so much greater than the storm will have to go through. And um, and just to accept that on the front end because I thought so many times we can make this easier for people. Like I know I've heard it's hard, but we will make it better. We're better. But I think the reality is what is hard is hard. It's change, it's it's um challenge, it's a lot of tasks. We added a lot of tasks on a lot of people's plate, especially our senior leadership team, to get this done. And just acknowledging that that like accepting that that load um probably was not very fun for them. Probably was not very fun. And many days I think we did a good job of trying to like prop them up. And then some days I I personally was just like, just don't make it harder. Let's just get through it. And I I think it's uh definitely something I will take and would tell anybody if they're considering a merge, don't don't kid yourself about how much work it is, but also stay the course if your convictions tell you this is right. Do the hard thing, just do the hard thing. Absolutely, it's okay. Which I think leads me to my last question about legacy. I wanted to talk about, I mean, we're also young, so this is a funny question. Talk about legacy. Um, but having having you know, careers that have given us opportunity to learn and to grow, and I think we've all acknowledged we still have much to learn. But if we look back, if we put ourselves into you know, our retirement and look back, what would we want our legacy of leadership to look like?
SPEAKER_01I think for me it's it's a I've said several of these things already. I would want my legacy to look like I was willing to do the hard thing to make people's lives better. That I was willing to put myself in that position to do something really difficult that could have we could have done this, you know, we could have just not done this and continue to do what we were doing. And yeah, um, it would have been really easy to do that, but would it have been beneficial to the people we serve? And so I want I want some of my legacy to, I would want my legacy to be that I was willing to do things that were not easy and to just sit in some difficult times to make people's lives better and to improve the community. I think the second thing that uh I haven't talked as much about, but I think is one of the things I would hope for is that when people think of me and my leadership, they think of uh hope. And that while things may not have always been perfect, and certainly I love Ricky, what you said about I'm not an expert, I'm a learner, but I always led with hope that things would be better, could be better if we if we try and if we're really convicted and um and are practicing what we preach. Um, and that there was always room to hope for more and hope for better. That's what I would hope my legacy would be. So write that on my tombstone. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Oh man.
SPEAKER_00We got you, we got you. I I will say, Rick, this isn't one that I I spend a lot of time thinking about.
SPEAKER_02Uh you're so young, Will.
SPEAKER_00That's why on my birth certificate, it may be that way, but man, my chiropractor says differently by the time we season. I will I will say uh in this moment, what I would love my legacy to be for people to when they think about my leadership is that I led through action and word. I used to say that it was all like, hey, let my action speak for me, but I want words also to stick and be important. There, I used to do the weekend wishes and the way we've grown, it is it's difficult to try to keep up and send those out weekly and bi-weekly. And it was just a simply motivation for staff to remember hey, think about how far we've come throughout the week, the highs, the lows, the ups, and the downs. And let's prepare to do some self-care and reflect over the weekend and recharge for next week. Some of the staff told me those were like the fireside chats that used to be sent out back in the day. Some have said that they miss hearing that because they would play it on the loudspeaker for their family and their aunts have been asking about it. And I think about what I can do differently. Now that I can't get it out as much as I used to be able to do when staff see me and hear me. Do they know that I'm coming from a place of care and of hope and support? And that's how I lead, and that decisions that are made are coming from a place of just wanting to provide hope and level up or enhance where we're going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd love to hear yours.
SPEAKER_00Come on, come on.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I think for me, uh, just off the top of my head, it would be that uh people believed that my actions and effort to keep growing, keep scaling, and keep doing the harder things as a company were completely pure and motivated by my why. That my why always sat in front of me, and that why being a family I grew up in who desperately needed help. And knowing the way it felt to not get the help that we needed, to see my brother suffer, to see my parents suffer, to to be a child and to wonder what the heck is going on, and to to experience, you know, my grandfather's uh death by suicide that that didn't make sense, that no one could explain. I didn't know what mental health was. And so to be able to keep that right in front of me, that every decision is driven by one more family who's gonna get help, one more individual who's gonna get help, one more person who's out there who has not received the care they needed will get it if we keep offering more opportunities and we keep reaching new populations and we keep looking at those rural counties and going back to urban counties. And you know, that that would be the ultimate it legacy for me is that people truly believed that everything I was doing was not because it was easy, fun, or um glamorous in any way. Um, and that you know, a title just means more responsibility and and more work and more more well, just being able to carry more people's burdens. Um, and so I think that's that's kind of where I would say I would hope legacy. I think there's a part B to that though. And I think the other part of being a CEO and having like an executive team, and this is probably true for anybody who has a team, but but having an executive team who knows me more than anyone else would know me in the company is being able to have a long-term relationship after my retirement with the people who worked with me in those trenches trenches, who really saw me and and shared my passion, shared my desires, shared my interests and my why, and being able to walk away from that and still have people that um are bonded by the experience of doing a lot of really hard things with belief in each other, that it was driven um with pure, pure intentions, which I think would also be a pretty cool legacy. You know, I see people get toward the end sometimes, and people um, and I don't know anybody personally, but in the news, obviously you see people, you know, oh, the CEO has exited because of this or that or whatever. And I hope my life does my career doesn't end in some weird way where it's like leaves a question in someone's mind about what happened. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's my that's my hope and legacy. And then there would be a bunch of people who work for me who said, oh no, no, it's not weird at all. She just got tired.
SPEAKER_01She's she's riding on a beach somewhere, writing her next book.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep, yep. Um, well, gosh, that seems like a good spot to wrap up.
SPEAKER_01Any last thoughts for our listeners? Thank you both for being real with me and authentic and putting us out there.
SPEAKER_00That's what we are here for. It is a candid, candid podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we'll do a whole other podcast um on just how our childhood's led us here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We might need to schedule about three and a half hours for that one.
SPEAKER_00That'll that'll turn into a good Netflix special right there. But but Kristen, I will, I will say we are, and I'm speaking for the entire team, we are very grateful and thankful to have you on board. Like this is uh it's exciting to have a another thought leader and strategic partner. I I know there are probably days you look at the phone like Will's calling again, but you pick up with without hesitation. And it's uh this has been a long time coming for us to have a have a have a team of experts that can help us lead the charge. So we're glad to have you on board and I hope you know that.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you. I I've said publicly, and I'll say again, I love working with this team. And having having moved out of the CEO role, you know, it's just different. It's a unique situation to be in, and in particular, staying on with the organization. I don't think a lot of CEOs do that, at least that I've been able to find. So I I my hope is that everyone sees that as speaking volumes about how much I believe not only in this work, but how much I believe in this team. And I really do. Like I, if I could choose my team, this would be it. So it really um it's worked out very well. And I'm I love it here.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Christy.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's awesome. Stay tuned because Kristen will have more to tell us in the future on innovation and the role she's playing there as a new area of Tennessee Voice's focus. So we'll have another podcast where we focus a little bit on that and what that looks like and what the heck innovation even means. So um stay tuned.
SPEAKER_00Stay tuned.
SPEAKER_02We're learning that as well. Uh y'all, thank you for being on today. Thank you for being candid with us. We'll talk soon.
SPEAKER_03Bye y'all.