Restless Ones - Pueblo Incense House of Prayer
A production of the Pueblo Incense House of Prayer. Our mission is to help normal believers sustain a life of worship and prayer by exploring what the scriptures say about the urgency of the hour we live in as well as how to grow in intimacy with God.
Restless Ones - Pueblo Incense House of Prayer
Why Prophecy Still Matters: Navigating Recent Prophetic Fallout & Reclaiming Biblical Prophecy
In this episode of the Restless Ones Podcast, Brennan and Zac address the recent exposing of prominent prophetic voices in the charismatic movement and why the body of Christ needs authentic prophecy now more than ever.
Drawing from personal wounds and healing journeys following prophetic abuse in Kansas City and other leaders in the prophetic movement, they discuss:
✓ What biblical prophecy actually is (1 Corinthians 14)
✓ How to hear God's voice practically
✓ Why prophecy is about affection, not just direction
✓ How to discern between God's voice, your voice, and the enemy
✓ Creating safe, accountable contexts for prophecy
✓ Why 100% accuracy isn't required (examining the prophet Agabus in Acts)
✓ How to test prophetic words without despising them
Whether you've been hurt by prophetic manipulation, are new to spiritual gifts, or have stepped back from prophecy due to recent controversies, this honest conversation offers biblical grounding, practical tools, and pastoral encouragement to pursue love while earnestly desiring spiritual gifts.
Key Topics: prophecy, spiritual gifts, hearing God's voice, prophetic abuse, 1 Corinthians 14, charismatic theology, testing prophecy, prophetic accountability, IHOP Kansas City, building prayer life
Perfect for Christians seeking to understand biblical prophecy, process prophetic hurt, or grow in hearing God's voice within community.
Welcome back to the Restless Ones Podcast. I'm Brennan. I'm here with Zach today.
SPEAKER_01:Good to have you back, man.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm glad to be back. Was out for a hot minute, but we're back. Come on. And we are here to help you build and sustain a life of prayer. So we've been walking through the Adore series, but today we're taking a little bit of a sidestep away from that series. So we're talking prophecy. Come on. So what what has kind of called for this sidestep? Can you give us a little context there?
SPEAKER_01:Of course. So first and foremost, we love prophecy around here. It's something we operate in often. It's a gift that we love.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And just in recent days, there's been some exposing of some pretty big prophetic voices in the body of Christ, charismatic movement. Um, with lots of different accusations and the things are being found out about them. And um many of you watching this, you've probably seen some of that happen. And um just as that's been unfolding, it's it's called to remembrance some of the the same stuff that that we both had encountered back with when IHOP had some exposing and some challenges go on with the prophetic. And so um, as I've been just picking up some of what's been going on, um, I've been thinking about that season a few years ago and and how deeply that wounded my own heart and affected me. And um the journey that I had to take was long with the prophetic and still in process, like still happening. I I yeah, you know, so anyway, I wanted to just come on here, be a little raw, be a little vulnerable, and share why prophecy still matters, despite people's sin, despite real real harm to people that's been done, um, despite all the confusion that's going on within the church. I want to just share from our perspective a little bit of where we're at, why we practice it and why we think the prophetic is valuable and important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I think it makes sense because the devil always attacks things that are like important to God, that are critical, that are holy. Yeah. Right? That's what he comes after. And so just seeing the mess that has been in the prophetic world uh recently, like I feel like it's so easy to see all of that and go, hey, let's just get away from this. Yeah. And so I think what we're trying to do in the podcast is kind of push against that tendency of the throw the baby out with the bathwater, get rid of it, but go, no, no, like, yes, there's real issues there. Like, we're not denying that, but we can't just throw the prophetic out. Like, I think we're trying to say there there's a value to the prophetic that we can't lose. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so I don't think that you or I are here today to talk the details of all the sin and the exposing and and try to choose who's right, who's wrong, who needs to say what. There's enough of that that's kind of out there already, and that's not our heart. We we just want to come and share what does the Bible say? What are some Bible verses that we hold valuable here in our community, in our context, and uh why, yeah, maybe help some of those that listen to this through their own journey, through maybe processing some of the uh the stuff that's been been exposed, or maybe they've been dealing with for a few years, like we have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, come on. Yeah, I see like two goals in my mind. Like one, we want to show the value of prophecy, and especially for those that may have been hurt, like we've been by the prophetic and all of the stuff that's gone on, um, to just give the value for it, and then also to, I would hope, teach prophecy to those that maybe are new to this world, right? They've never really heard about prophecy before, they don't aren't comfortable with it. And so I'd love to give a few of the practicals as well of here's the basics, here's how it works, what it looks like.
SPEAKER_01:So good.
SPEAKER_00:So, first question, then I guess can you, if you can, give a one-liner on what is prophecy?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think prophecy is a God-inspired testimony of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, unpack that a little bit because I know you're you're pulling from a Bible verse there. Totally.
SPEAKER_01:Um so I'll say that I'll save the Bible verses for a minute, but I think that prophecy has a lot of different meanings to a lot of different contexts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I think prophecy is Christ-centered, it is it's God-centered, which is very important. And I think it talks it is the unveiling of who he is and what he does, is maybe the best way to say it, apart from reading the Bible verses that I've got put down here. It's it's it it it it un it brings clarity to his thoughts and to his affections. Yeah, it's meant to communicate the the intentions, the thoughts of God, his dreams, his heart. And so, yeah, anyway. I love that. That's that's my attempt without reading directly Bible verses.
SPEAKER_00:No, I love that. I feel like my mind's a super practical mind, so I love that description that kind of gives the heart behind it. Um, the way I've always seen it is you're hearing God's voice about someone else, typically. Yeah, right? It could be about you. Like that's just kind of a generalization, but that's helped me kind of narrow down what prophecy is because growing up, um, I grew up in the Nazarene church, and so gifts of the spirit weren't really a part of my life very much. Um, and so for me, hearing prophecy, all I ever really thought was like Old Testament prophets that would like declare the word of the Lord, what's gonna happen. It was massive, it was like shifting nations and stuff. Right. And I always saw prophecy as that, and it happened to me in my mind in some visionary type realm experience, typically, some sort of dreamlike state. And that was prophecy to me. So it was it was actually hilarious the first time I really started prophesying. Yeah, uh, someone told me I was because I didn't really quite understand how all that worked. And they were like, Brennan, you're so prophetic. And I was like, No, I'm not, I just hear God's voice. Like, I that's not prophetic. Like, trust me.
SPEAKER_01:That's a that's a t-shirt right there.
SPEAKER_00:Prophetic t shirt. No, it's true though. And so I think for me, that's that's a helpful way to narrow it down of it's not this strange mystical woo-wee-woo experience, right? It's just you're hearing God's voice. And I think we all do that to one degree or another, right? We all make a decision and we felt God lead us in one way or another. That's all you're doing in the prophetic, and you get better at it as you kind of take time to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, and when you think of God, and the first time we see him in the scriptures, like Genesis 1, he's a God who speaks. Like he's a God who's who is speaking all of creation, all of order into existence. And it's like you go through the entire journey of the Bible, and it's always God trying to find a way to communicate with his people, through his people, to his people. And though it has looked different throughout the centuries, I think the the era in which we live now, there's some clear biblical um example and framework for okay, how does God want us to hear him? Because he's speaking, he's got all these thoughts for us, he's constantly declaring himself through creation, through dreams and visions. And, you know, as prayer people, end time people, we really believe in the Joel 2, Acts 2, yeah, promise that all flesh is gonna prophesy, sons, daughters, men, women, maid servants. I mean, everyone is gonna prophesy. So we're we just believe that we're walking in that or we're stepping into that reality, I think, increasingly more and more as time goes on.
SPEAKER_00:That's so good. And I think of like John 16 and 17, right? Jesus unpacking the Holy Spirit and talking about what he'll do. And in a number of different places, he talks about like he'll lead you into truth or he'll do this, right? And then if you sit down and think about it, he has to communicate with you in some way to do that, right? God has to speak to us in order to lead us into truth, in order to do those things. And even Jesus himself in John 5, I think it is, don't quote me on that. Um, he talks about how he says, I do nothing except that what I see my father doing. Right. And so I look at Jesus' life and I'm like, how did he know who to talk to, who to pray for, who to heal, all those things? But he says, I don't do anything except what I see my father doing. So even Jesus lived in that state of communicating with the Father. Yeah. I don't know what exactly that looked like. Like I've not seen God doing something in that sense, but I think Jesus, as the example of how we're to live, said, I only do what I see God doing. And so we should be able to communicate with God as well and do what we see him doing or what we hear him telling us to do.
SPEAKER_01:That's so good. Well, and even the the verse that we prayed in our prayer room earlier today, John 15, remain in me and my word remain in you. And you can ask anything you wish, and it'll be done for you. There's something about his voice when it remains inside of us, and however it gets inside of us, through reading Bible verses, through communicating about it through prophetic words, or God gives you dreams and confirms the things in the scriptures, or whatever, however, that gets inside of you, we want it to take root in a way that would transform us so that even our prayer life becomes effective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Come on. So how does prophecy work in your mind? Like if we go just kind of nitty-gritty, what does the process look like? And if you want to like give like an example first, then we can kind of walk through the steps or like how it actually what it looks like, but what is it, how does it work in your mind? And it's a little bit different for each person.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's different for each person, and oftentimes for me, it's different almost every scenario. Every time I give in a prophetic word, it's I think that my mind loves to work in outlines and frameworks that are tried and true. And there are some elements of the prophetic that are like that, but more often than not, I think that prophecy is more learning dependence on God. And so whatever it's good, whatever that kind of looks like, there's been times. Now, I'll I think it's worth sharing some stories. There's been times where the Lord has said, Hey, you have a word for this person, go tell them. I'm like, all right, Lord, give me that word. Nothing. Nothing. And then 30 minutes will go by. This church service is about to end, and I'm like, I want to be obedient, but I I don't have anything to say, Lord. And he's like, go, like, take a step. Yeah, and oftentimes I've got to take the step and tell the person, hey, I have a word for you. Is it okay if I share? And it's in that moment where it'll happen. And I'm like, oh, Lord, praise God that you did that. There's been, there was a time, this is the worst. This is the worst. I love, I'm grateful for everything the Lord does, but sometimes I just don't get it.
SPEAKER_00:Amen.
SPEAKER_01:We're having a ministry time, and we're doing a time of prayer and prophetic, and we had everybody come forward, of course. And so me and a friend are praying over everybody. There's this one lady who's just sweet, older lady. She like would come to every prayer meeting, and the Lord says, You have a song to sing to her. And I'm like, No, I don't. Like, are you kidding me? I don't. And I had no words, and so I was just like watching her move forward in the line, and I'm like, oh my turning, and sure enough, she gets to the front, and I'm like, okay, I can be obedient or I cannot. And so I just started singing what I felt like he was saying. I can't remember, it's been so long, but I was just singing this song to this older lady, and she just is melting, like weeping, like saying that everything that I was singing was so validating to her. And anyway, uh, so I think that in my mind, I have some frameworks where I don't know where it came from, somewhere where there's this idea of God giving you the raw data of revelation, he gives you the idea, this concept of something, and then that concept requires some interpretation at some point. What is what does this mean, Lord? And then it also requires some application. How is this relevant to my life? And so I think that prophecy has those sort of main points that it hits, but it looks different. The the way it comes in and the way that it like the input and the output often looks different.
SPEAKER_00:True. I love the what you said about dependence, because that that really is so key in the prophetic. I think it's dependence, which you know, you can to tighten knit to humility, right? Just trusting God, believing what he says, um, and then obeying. I think too, like the the key point for me is the ability to hear God's voice.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:I think dependence and hearing his voice probably would be the two that are necessary to prophesy accurately, yeah, or at least prophesy. We can get on the accurate part later. Um, but so what does that feel like for you? What what is the experience of hearing God's voice? Because in both those stories, you mentioned, like, God told you this, God told you that. And as a young person, when I first started getting introduced to prayer and stuff, I wanted to learn how to hear God's voice, but no one ever explained to me what it sounded like, and that drove me absolutely insane. So if you could help younger Brennan, of course, what what does that feel like? What is what is the experience when you hear God's voice? Is it always the same? Was it what's it like?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, every single time I see a rip in the sky, and God comes down with all of these angels, and I'm just like, oh yeah, this is a prophetic word.
SPEAKER_00:No, how do you know it's prophecy? What is that? Right. That's how that's revolutionary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, never once has anything even remotely close to that happened. But I think over time I have learned to recognize his voice. Scripture says we're his sheep, and his sheep recognize his voice, and that comes through time spent learning to hear what it sounds like or how it sounds. So I've never heard an audible, like, uh maybe I have. I I I can't. There's maybe one instance where I maybe heard the Lord say no. Okay, which is whatever. But every other time.
SPEAKER_00:What a word to hear. If you only get one, right, right.
SPEAKER_01:That's why I don't want to believe it, because it's no, it's not fun. Um, but every other time, it's almost like I will get an impression, which is sort of like a random thought that sort of popped into my head or an emotion that just showed up sort of out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I have to check that emotion. I have to check that thought and be like, where did that come from? I wasn't just thinking about that. That wasn't on my mind, that wasn't on my heart. Okay, maybe this is God. And almost every time that I'm thinking about delivering a prophetic word or getting a prophetic whatever, I'm always saying, all right, this might be God. Or this could have been my brain connecting things together. And that's either one of those are okay. But what we all want to know is, how do we know for sure if it's God? Well, I think it always requires an amount of risk where we say, Okay, Lord, that might be you. So let me in humility say this out loud to somebody. Hey, I just had this thought, may or may not be God. But he said this, he dropped this verse in my heart. He called to remembrance this Bible verse. He showed me this scene from a movie, this character from a book, and these qualities about this character, the Lord was saying that this is in you. Like you're kind, you're loving, whatever the word might be. You know, I'm just making them up on the spot right now. Yeah, but those things sort of pop in my mind, and I just share them in humility. And then over time, I've learned to recognize okay, that's probably God, because I wouldn't have had this thought toward that person. I hadn't read that Bible verse in three years, and all of a sudden you drop that in my heart, and I start to recognize it more and more, and still to this day, I think I've been practicing hearing God's voice for around 15 years now, and I'm way more confident than I was 15 years ago that God is speaking to me, but 100% of the time I'm not 100% confident. So it's a journey, and I think that oftentimes the Lord will use some of our own personality and some of our own unique makeup to help confirm those things, which is why I think it's tricky for a lot of people like, no, that's just me. Well, yeah, God made you that way because he wants to communicate with you in that way.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It that's also what makes it hard to explain what it sounds like or feels like a lot of the time, because it's like it's different for each person. Right. I had one friend, she gave me a word because she smelled something. Yep, she was like, I'm smelling peppermints, and I just see that as a season of refreshing that the Lord's gonna give you. And I'm like, that's crazy. I've never never experienced that myself. Come on. But so the Lord speaks in different ways to each person. That's so good. And I I do think though, that the most common, if we were to say that, is the the thought or the idea that kind of comes into your mind that you weren't really thinking about before, and it just kind of pops in. I feel like that's the most common way that people typically hear the voice of the Lord. Um, but that makes it difficult because there's three voices in your mind, right? It can be you, yeah, it can be God, can be the devil.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Each of those voices speaks, and so I think the ability to discern between each of those is crucial to prophecy or even just hearing God's voice in general for your life. And for me, one of the primary ways you learn what God's voice sounds like is reading his word.
SPEAKER_03:Amen.
SPEAKER_00:Because that's his voice in written form. And so if you get used to what it sounds like in the Bible when he talks, what he thinks, how he feels, then you get to know his voice. And so when a thought pops in your mind, you can know that doesn't sound like the God of the Bible.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or that does sound like the God of the Bible. Like I think he would say something like that. And so that that's been crucial in helping me discern between what is and what is not God's voice, is going, okay, when that thought pops in, I'll typically ask right away, okay, is that God? Like what does that align with who I know him to be? Right. Because not every prophetic word's gonna be found in the Bible. I think that's something I had to get over at first was right, if he wants to tell this person, you know, that they like donuts, you're not gonna find that in the Bible. Yeah, but is it in line with God's heart for that people, right? Absolutely. And if it's in line with him, then I think you can have confidence to take the risk, right? That I this it lines up with what God's like. So I'm gonna go ahead and share what I've heard. So good. See what happens.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's this is a good point to bring in some scripture in 1 Corinthians 14, which is I think the premier passage when it comes to prophecy. I think it's the best one. So verses one through five, I wrote it down. Says, pursue love. And we might as well just stop and end the podcast right there. Pursue love. Yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God. And no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but rather that you would prophesy, and greater is the one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edification. So I think it's God's intention to use the prophetic to edify people, to exhort people, to console them. And it's all about him communicating his heart and his intention for his people. And what I've what I've seen over my time is that oftentimes people deliver prophetic words to the degree in which they love, or to the more so, more accurately, to the the degree in which they've received God's love. So there's a lot of people who deliver prophetic words that are very angry and judgmental and feel harsh.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And maybe there's truth to that, but I think they're oftentimes lacking God's affection. Like we love because God first loved us. So if Paul's command is to pursue love first and then eagerly desire these gifts, especially prophecy, then we've got to learn to be loved by God so that when we communicate it, however the input comes in, because there's been times where the Lord has communicated to me about somebody's sin or a problem they've been struggling with. And do I just call them out? Hey, you've been. Cheating on your wife, or whatever the Lord's not forgive me that word. But something like that, you know, where it's it would be so exposing and revealing. I've tapped into his heart. Okay, Lord, you've given me that information, but how do I communicate what you're saying in a loving way? And though the Lord gave me a present circumstance, he wanted me to look beyond that through the lens of love to see what was budding. Okay, where are we going, Lord? This person's in a pit. Where are they going? And how do we call them forth out of that into this? And so I didn't say, hey, you're sinning, fix your life. I said, okay, the Lord has this journey for you, and you might be facing these struggles, but you're going that way, that direction.
SPEAKER_00:So I think love is the key. That's so true. And I feel like uh it's what breaks my heart about prophecy and what's happened recently with all of the just fallout with it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Is you read 1 Corinthians 14, but then you also read 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13. And it's like love and prophecy just interwoven through all of it, right? 1 Corinthians 12 describes all the different spiritual gifts, and that's a lot of what that chapter is known for, but it's also known for the chapter of being about the body of Christ, how the different parts work together to build up each other, to work together and function. And it's like prophecy is meant to be that. It's meant to be a part of the body of Christ that is for the good, the building up, the strengthening of the whole body, right? And just watching the fallout with this prophetic stuff, like it that's destroying the body, and it's the absolute opposite of what prophecy is meant to be. And so I feel like seeing that, like my heart breaks. I know that's not what prophecy is meant to be. And it's part of why we're doing the podcast is we're saying, no, no, no. Prophecy is about love, it's about building up the body. There's good and there's value to this, and we can't lose it. It's a vital part of who we are as the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I want to be super cautious the way that I say this, but I think that this is why the enemy is so attacked prophecy, not just in what's happened, because people who have, I'm not trying to make excuses for anybody's sin or the manipulation that's happened through prophecy, but I will say that as a result of that, the enemy has crept in to get a foothold where he can so that people would not prophesy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And in my own personal experience, this is what happened when stuff that happened with everything in Kansas City came out. I got terrified of the prophetic. And I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm I don't ever want to manipulate somebody in the prophetic. I don't ever want to almost manipulate somebody in the prophetic. And it's a tense time. So for about a year, I didn't give a prophetic word, which is so uncharacteristic. Like this has been something that I've operated in, like I was saying, for 15 years, and I I love hearing God's voice. I love looking at people with love. And I think in that journey, what the enemy was doing inside of me, as God was also healing me, I think the enemy silenced my voice to encourage the church. And that includes the church isn't, you know, the building of where we go on a Sunday, but to silence the encouragement of the people around me, which began to lead to more bitterness, more frustration, more annoyance with the body of Christ because he shut my mouth and that closed my ears to what God was saying. Like I wasn't actively trying to hear God's voice for the people around me.
SPEAKER_00:So true. And I feel like that's a side of prophecy we don't often think about is how it affects us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I've seen that to be true. Like when I'm in a friendship or I know someone and they're rubbing me the wrong way.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:If I sit down and go, okay, God, give me a prophetic word for them. Like, what do you want me to say to them? Then it's so hard to stay mad at them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's so hard because God speaks then to you of like, I think I see this in them, I feel this about them, I like this about them. And you're like, oh, I guess I should too. Like, dang. So that's a side of prophecy too, that we we can't lose. Like you said, no matter what is happening out in the body of Christ at large, like we have to hold on to the prophetic because it's it's more than just the predictive prophecy stuff. Like, it's hearing God's heart for someone, sharing that so that they can be blessed, and it changes you on the inside as well.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. So, Ephesians 5, we we mention this often when we're prophesying. So it's important to realize Paul's talking about husbands loving their wives to give the example of how Jesus loves the church. He says, Husbands love your wives, just as Christ has also loved the church. So we've got love again, gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present himself to the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle in any such thing, but that she would be holy and blameless, so that so husbands also ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own, his his own wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are parts of his body. And I think that when we're when we're talking about the lens of the prophetic, that we know for sure we we can be confident of this thing, that when we operate in the prophetic, it's God's intention to yes, edify, exhort, and console, but it's also God's intention to wash, to nourish, and cherish his bride with his word. And so while there are other elements of the prophetic, some of it is um, you know, things where we're predicting some of future events. Maybe, maybe, maybe that's the wrong way to say it, but we're seeing future events in somebody's life unfolding. Maybe we're getting words of knowledge like somebody's phone number or whatever that we've seen. Those are those are elements where there is truth to it for sure. But I would say this the intention of God revealed in scripture is definitely that the church would be built up, edified, washed, nourished, and cherished with his affection and it and and his word, rather than just predicting all of these events and calling out world events and who's gonna be the next president and who's gonna all of those things. God wants to cherish his church and cherish his bride.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love the phrase you use that the prophecy is more about affection than direction. That's so key because I feel like so often we come to the prophetic, or if there's like prophecy rooms or a prophetic night, we so often come with the mindset of I want to hear who I'm gonna marry, where I'm gonna live, what job I'm gonna have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And it's like that can be part of it, but it's not the main goal of prophecy. The main goal of prophecy is affection. And that I think holds true even in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You look back at the prophets, and yeah, they were very directive. Like they gave all kinds of this is gonna happen, then that's gonna happen, and this is gonna happen. But the whole point is God wants your love. He loves you, he wants you. Come back to him, right? Their predictive stuff is like, hey, you're about to get smacked by Babylon, come back to God. He wants you, right? And so it's like the the predictive prophecy stuff, the directional stuff, it's meant to point you back to the affection of God.
SPEAKER_01:That's so good. This is one of the reasons if we if we look at Matthew 24 and Jesus' warning about the end times and the season of deception, like that's like the number one thing that he is warning people. Take heart that you're not deceived. Like, be aware there's lots of false Christs and and false prophets that are arising. And I mean, there's even a figure at the end of the age called a false prophet. Like, there's there's a a real, there will be a real hunger for the prophetic at the end of the age because Jesus said he's gonna do it. Joel 2, Acts 2. There's going to be an increase in the prophetic, but there's also going to be an increase in deception. And so where people are hungry, showing up to the meeting, showing up to the prayer meeting, the prophetic room, wanting their sign, longing for, okay, what's what are the what's the direction? What do I need to do? It's so easy for somebody who's maybe not uh doesn't have the time and hearing God's voice is new to it, doesn't have the love that's leading them to give them a word that may be from God, may not be from God, they might hear it halfway and lead people into deception. But if we're letting love and the heart of God and his affection be revealed through what we're saying, then we we help with the discerning process. Like if people don't have to go question my prophetic words I give them for the a year because I'm so motivated by love that it comes across that way and it's calling them back to the Lord, then praise God. But I've had people give me words that are very directive, like, you need to do this in your ministry, you should do this. And I had to sit on those words for a year and pray, okay, because I just don't want to throw it out because what if it is from God? So I'd sit on that word and pray through it for a year from people who are others would look at and say, Yeah, they're very prophetic, they're very accurate. I don't really care how accurate or whatever you are. I I I gotta find God's heart and all of it.
SPEAKER_00:So that brings up question then of because you're talking uh about that, and I think of the verse, uh, don't despise prophecies, but test all things, right? Hold fast to what is good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So does prophecy have to be accurate 100% of the time? Like if we're prophesying to someone or someone that's new to prophecy wants to prophesy, like how does that work?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, that's a great question. Because here's what I would say the majority of the time there is some version of us, humanity, in prophecy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Probably 100% of the time, because you were mentioning the voices that that we hear, God's voice, our voice, and uh the enemy. But I think that there's also language that God wants to use to communicate. And oftentimes he'll use language, thoughts, concepts, ideas that we know to communicate that to somebody. But sometimes he'll use language, thoughts, objects that they're familiar with to communicate it. And I think within that, we sometimes get lost in the translation.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So there might be, you know, the Lord might give me the color orange, you know, a picture of the color orange or something. And maybe I move on too fast and don't listen to him. And I think, oh no, like the Lord is saying something about you need to wear orange clothes today. I don't know. But really, that person is is an orange, they they're planting orange trees in their backyard or whatever. You know, it's I could miss it a little bit, but they still get the encouragement and it still resonates with them. And so the Lord can move through all the weakness of our words, but 100% accuracy, no. But 100% should we test every word? Yeah. We should not despise it, not throw things out. I mean, I've gotten words, man, that people have made like really, really intense statements about what I should do with my life or our ministry. And I don't just throw them out, like I got to test it. Okay, Lord, I'm gonna test it until I feel some clarity about these things. There's one word I got. I was in a prophetic room and uh sitting there, and this guy, I can tell he was about to take a risk. Like I knew he was gonna take a risk, but amen. Good way to take the risk. Yeah, and he looks at me and he said, If you and your sister have faith to change your family, have faith to change your city. And I almost busted out laughing because I I don't have a sister, but I I think of that word often because though maybe he missed something in me having a sister, or maybe God is trying to communicate something else about a spiritual sister, I don't know. Sure. But I think about that word often because there's some good things in it. If I can, if I can change my family, then maybe I can make a difference in my city. You know, I I hold on to that and try to find what is the gold, even though something about that felt off.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I think that verse, the don't despise prophecies, but test all things, hold fast to what is good. I think it's really helpful because if you think about it, Paul wouldn't say it like that unless he knew prophecies were going to be slightly inaccurate.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It's just kind of assumed that people that are prophesying, there's gonna be some bits of it that are true, some bits that aren't. So don't despise it. Like, don't throw it all out, but test it, hold fast to what's good. And I think even uh this was always encouraged me since I've discovered it uh in like a book, but there's a prophet in the New Testament in the book of Acts named Agabus. Acts 11. Agabus prophesies that there's gonna be like this severe drought all through the Roman world, yeah, and the entire body of Christ like mobilizes for it, right? They're sending the apostles or like sending money to Judea, they're like moving resources around and stuff in order to be able to cover for this drought that's coming, and it happens, right? He's dead on, right accurate, and that's a very predictive prophecy word, like that's crazy. And then in Acts 21, same guy, Agabus, shows up back on the scene and he comes to Paul and he walks up to Paul, takes Paul's belt off, and he ties Paul's hands with the belt, right? And he says, in the same way, the Jews are gonna bind this man or the man who owns this belt, and they're gonna turn him over to the Romans, right? And so everyone's like, oh, don't go to Jerusalem, don't go to Jerusalem, because Agabus, this prophet guy, is telling you that this is gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Paul feels like he's supposed to go to Jerusalem, though, so he does, right? When he gets to Jerusalem, the Jews, through a number of circumstances, come at him, they're trying to kill him.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00:The Jewish people form a mob, they're trying to kill him, and so the Romans come in, rescue him from the mob, tie him up, and then they take him into custody. And so you look at that scene and you go, okay, he got correct that Paul would end up found by the Romans.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But he missed it in that it wasn't the Jews that tied him up and handed him over to the Romans. The Jews were trying to kill him, the Romans actually saved him from the Jews. And so in that sense, like his prophecy was a little bit wrong.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so I think that's part of why Paul says, like, don't despise prophecies, but test all things. Hold fast to what is good. Like, not every element of it has to work. Yeah. And it can be half right and half wrong.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I've had that happen plenty of times with things I've said.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:People are like, oh, that's yeah, that's right, but that makes no sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, and that's even true with Bible verses. We can take a Bible verse and it's like Jesus telling the Pharisees, you come to the scriptures because you're looking for eternal life, but you're not willing to come to me. The reason we have the Bible isn't so that, okay, we've got it all. That's all we need. We're good. The reason we have the Bible is because it's meant to lead us to Jesus. It's meant to point us to Jesus, who is the living expression of the Word of God. The reason we're getting prophetic words isn't so that we can say, okay, now I know what I need to do for the next 10 years of my life. Don't need to really talk to the Lord about it. It's all meant to lead us to Jesus. And so, regardless of if 100% of your prof the prophetic word you receive is accurate and in all the details are right, regardless of what it looks like, it's all meant to open up dialogue with Jesus.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because he often he's get people have given me prophetic words that are maybe 40% accurate, but I come to the Lord, but he wants to talk to me about one thing in that prophetic word, and that starts a conversation that I have with God for the next three months.
SPEAKER_00:True. That's so real. And I feel like an analogy that's been helpful for me is because like a lot of the prophecy that you'll see in the more like prophecy that we operate in, right? You see pictures, you get words, you share things about it. Um, a lot of times it's kind of strange if you see it, because it's like you get a Bible verse, and that was the Bible verse they read this morning, right? Or you see like an orange, right? And they ate oranges that morning, and it's like, this is kind of weird, right? If you think about it. But the way I see it is if you have someone you really love and you want to tell them that, right? Like, say it's uh a spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever it is, if you just say, I love you, right, it's meaningful. But if you remember that they like, you know, this flavor of donuts and you go buy those and you remember this day means something to them, and so you give it to them on that day, and then you tell them you love them, like it's so much more meaningful because you remembered things about their life and you showed it. And I feel like that's a little bit of what prophecy is God going, Hey, I saw this about you, I know this about you, and I love you. Right? Because it's it's about him showing his affection. And so I feel like even with a lot of the predictive prophecy, that's kind of the point. Yeah, is him saying, Hey, look at this, like, see these things that I know, and it's to show you I see you and I love you. Yeah, and know what your life is about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. But I think that there was a time uh about a month ago, we were in a Kingdom Connections meeting and the Lord gave me a directive word for somebody, and it was something like uh I can't remember what what I said, something about are you going on a trip? Or like the Lord says yes to going on this trip. Yeah. And I feel like we had just been in a meeting with this kingdom connection, and they were saying how finances were rough or tough or something like that. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this better be God. Like, this better be God. And so I gave him the word in humility. Like, I don't know if this is God, I don't know if he's saying you need to go on this trip or whatever, but I said, Okay, this is what I feel like that you should go. And then anyway, they ended up making the decision to go, and then the Lord had provided more than that they needed the month, and so it all worked out, and so you know, even in when I get those words, I I feel more of a uh the heaviness of them. And so I think in the way that we communicate it, those are crucial to people. Yeah, because so many people, man, they haven't listened to a podcast like this. They're getting prophetic words sometimes for the first. I remember the first time I received prophetic words. It was like an it was an hour long, very directive. And probably 90% of it now that I look back was true, but I had never experienced prophecy before. And they were all these really clear directive words that were gonna happen. And most people are in that place where somebody who looks, sounds, feels anointed is telling them they need to do something with their life, they just want to be obedient to the Lord. And so I think if we can present with humility, when those when those directive words come, it it that's that's God's heart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but you're not gonna lose points for not saying the Lord said straight out. Yeah. So if we do still value prophecy, which we do, and hopefully the people listening have a little more value for it now. Yeah, how do we create a context that's safe for prophecy? Because I think that's a a big issue right now is all of these different moments where prophecy was abused and used for manipulation. Like, how do we create an environment where prophecy isn't or can't be used in those ways?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'll be I'll be real personal about some of my opinions here because one of the things that I I have grown to strongly, strongly dislike is when there is somebody who is prophesying on a stage and calling people out and having them stand up and they're delivering prophetic words over them without any ability for that person to say, Oh yeah, like this is God. Amen. It's just happening. So I think one of the things that I dislike in that is that there is sort of no accountability there. They can just say whatever, and maybe some people who are there can be like, oh yeah, that was God, or oh, he kind of missed it. Like that guy on stage kind of missed it. So I would say one, I would be hesitant. I would say, you know, I'm not in charge of people's life and ministry or whatever, but I would be very hesitant to call people out in front of large crowds of people and deliver prophetic words that are directive or about intimate details. So I'd say one, be super hesitant about that. And also I would say lean into accountability as much as possible. I I hate the idea of the anointed man, the man of God, the the one person who can hear God's voice. There's a lot of churches who function that way where the pastor is what what he says is the the word of God. And that I mean, it's treacherous territory. I don't like it, but I I I would say every opportunity. To prophesy with others alongside of you that can hold you accountable, that can that can speak into what you just prophesied over somebody is a good first step. I can't, I wouldn't say we've got it all figured out here. Like, I don't know if we've got all of all the answers to this question. I think the global body of Christ is hopefully moving to toward answering this question in some healthy ways for every unique context. But within our context, oftentimes we prophesy in teams. With our kingdom connections, when we're having prayer appointments, we're doing it in teams of three. And we have moments after where we're talking. Okay, that was a good word. Um, I didn't really know about this word, but we we went for it and we're we're doing it in the safety of community. There's always going to be some safety when you do it together. So I would just be hesitant to be the person on stage who's calling people out. I'd be hesitant to do this individually without others around. Every prophetic word that you get, you should share that with people around you. Like you should, you should bring people. I had I had a friend this this past week. He was getting a prophetic word from somebody who's one of the most like prophetic, like trusting, I would trust them with whatever. And so does he. And he sent me that prophetic word and said, Hey, what do you think about this? I was like, Yeah, I think it's great. Amen. There's some things that really resonated, and there's some things I don't know, but the Lord does. So I think it's always helpful. Share your prophetic words with other people. Don't don't hide them. If somebody says something like, you're not supposed to share this outside of just you and I, that's red flag.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, so I would say keep it in the context of community. We are the body of Christ who are meant to share these things in togetherness.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that makes so much sense because you know, 1 Corinthians 12, again, it talks about prophecy, but it is in the context of the whole body. Right. Right? It's it's meant to be a gift to build up the body, not just like a more personal thing. So I think that's that's key. Yeah. So any closing thoughts you've got. And then I'd also love to hear like what would you say to someone they're listening to this podcast, they've been, maybe they're in that place that you found yourself, and I found myself after all the Kansas City stuff, where it's like, I don't know if I want to touch prophecy again. Like, what would you say to that person?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So first and foremost, I would say that the body of Christ has never needed any less of the voice of God. And in the midst of all of the fallout and all of the exposing and manipulation and brokenness that we are seeing, I think that now there's probably more of a need for the authentic expression of the prophetic than ever before. And so, while yes, you might be hurt and wounded, confused or scared or whatever emotions or thoughts that you're having, don't check out. Don't check out. I would say this: pursue love and earnestly desire spiritual gifts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Pursue love and desire that we would, as an entire body of Christ, hear the Lord more clearly, that we would lean into his voice with more dependence than ever before. And go through, you know, if you're hurting and if you're wounded by some of the these things that have happened on the on the world stage, get in community, express those wounds. Don't just bleed out on Facebook. Don't go make a podcast where you bleed out all over people. There's enough of that going on. Get find some friends, find some pastors, share your heart, be authentic, and let's find ways to move from hurt and brokenness into okay, I want to pursue this with authenticity, and I I want to be I want to be a voice that shares the love of God more than anything.
SPEAKER_00:Come on. And I think if you're new to the prophetic, it's something you haven't really dealt with, then I just encourage you to take the risk. Like try it out. Ask God to give you his thoughts, his hearts for someone else, and write it down, share it with them. Yeah. Give it to them, see, see what happens. I think for me that was the most grounding thing. Um with like, can I hear God's voice? Can I not? I was really uncertain for a really long time. But as I started giving prophetic words and people started saying, Yeah, that was God, then it gave me confidence of like, oh wait, I can actually hear God's voice. Like this is this is a real thing. So I'd encourage you to do it. I think it it changes everything in the Christian walk when you can actually hear God's voice and walk in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think the pastoral heart in me wants to say, if you're listening to this, reach out to us. We've been we've been through some stuff, we're processing some of that stuff still.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But if you've got no one, and maybe you go to a church that doesn't really understand the prophetic, doesn't know what's going on in that world, or we we're friends. At the end of the day, Brendan and I are just a couple dudes who really want you to sustain a life of worship and prayer. Yeah. And any way that we can be a resource to you, reach out to us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Come on. End it there.
SPEAKER_01:Come on.
SPEAKER_00:God bless y'all.