Love, Sex & Society with Katie Bogen

Love, Sex & Society with Katie Bogen | Episode 236

In this episode of The Swing Nation Podcast, the top-rated podcast about non-monogamy and swinging, Dan and Lacy sit down with Katherine (Katie) Bogen — a doctoral candidate in clinical psychology, scholar-activist with over 500K followers, and the debut author of Queering Him.

Together, they dive into her new book and unpack the social dynamics between monogamy and the lifestyle. Katie shares her perspective on how cultural norms, expectations, and moral frameworks shape the way people view non-monogamy, and how those ideas are evolving.

They also explore the many different ways couples and singles engage in ethical non-monogamy (ENM), from swinging to open relationships, and how individuals navigate identity, communication, and connection within those spaces.

Whether you’re curious about the psychology behind the lifestyle or looking to better understand the broader social landscape of ENM, this episode offers a thoughtful and engaging conversation that challenges assumptions and expands perspectives.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This podcast is intended for adult audiences over the age of 18. It contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solid, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome to the Swing Nation Podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle. Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the experts. Learn and grow together. Join the nation. Hey there, pineapple people, and welcome to the Swing Nation podcast. We are your hosts, Northern Guy and Southern Girl. And today we have a special guest. Her name is Katie. She's an author. She's a PhD candidate and a whole host of other things. And so I don't mess it up, Katie. I'm going to let you introduce yourself to our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Absolutely. Thanks so much. Katie Bogan, pronouns she, her. I'm a doctoral candidate in clinical psychology, focused on sexual functioning among trauma survivors. I research mostly queer and bisexual people. I'm also a sex therapist in training. And I just came out with my debut novel, which is about the erotic lives of two bisexual adolescents.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

So you've definitely been looking at non-monogamy, kind of, I think, from a different lens than I think most people would, maybe a little more science, a little more uh from an author's perspective. So we're we're definitely interested in in your take. And before, you know, we did a pre-call and we were talking a little bit before this. Um, but what what kind of from your lens, what have you kind of learned about non-monogamy?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, some of it is anecdotal from people in my life who are ENM and um who have had multiple partners. But I think the logic that I keep coming back to is this debate that I've really heard through kink research that I think applies interestingly to the non-monogamous context, which is the debate about innate traits versus socialized traits. Like, is this nature versus nurture? And there's this really cool conversation happening in kink and BDSM research, which I'm lucky enough to participate in, about whether people are born kinky, whether they are born with these kink interests, or if that's something they develop through moving through the world, through gendered socialization, um, through experiences that excite them. And I've always been curious from the scholarly perspective about applying that debate to ethical non-monogamy of are people born with non-monogamous proclivities? Is this something that's, you know, genetically inherited, or is it something they develop through social learning, even social contagion? Um, and I'm not here implying that all non-monogamous people are kinky or vice versa, but just that these two questions of is this nature nurture or some combination thereof can really be applied to both groups. And they're both really socially stigmatized groups.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

No, yeah. No, I I totally agree with that. And I think, you know, me and Lacey are pretty passionate about doing advocacy work uh for the non-monogamous community. And, you know, we still have friends that have experienced, you know, job loss. Uh, we have friends that have had go had to go through pretty lengthy custody battles and stuff because it came out that they were swingers or non-monogamous, and you know, they were almost treated as an other, and even at sometimes like they might be at, you know, um present a unique risk to people and and therefore have to be treated differently. Uh and it it is interesting that, you know, in some of that debate, and I know you know the queer community has has dealt with this where like you know, but if you're born that way, it's not really a choice, right? This is you're just you're just acting on nature, so to speak. And I would almost argue, you know, if you look throughout history, it almost seems like non-monogamy is more the default standard, and and monogamy is more the the trait that we've learned and we've adapted to socially.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah, and monogamy seems to be really aligned with not only capitalism, but like this hyperindependence and like nuclear family system where you're supposed to have like a primary breadwinner in a family, there's supposed to be someone there to maintain a home, those people are meant to raise children, and kind of where like Christian hegemony and capitalism intersect seems to be like a birthplace of this monogamy norm. Whereas non-monogamy, I would think, aligns more with um collectivist thinking or um even like more socially oriented, network-oriented systems. So when when we talk about like the stigma against non-monogamous people, part of that stigma is that it violates this capitalist orientation toward a nuclear family, which is very like Americana, very Christian West, um, and really yeah, fits people into a teeny box.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah. So some of the research I've done on it, you know, it I found like the Romans were one of the first ones to really spread monogamy, or or kind of the the time in history where you see monogamy coming on becoming like the default standard as the Romans kind of expand their empire. And it and from what I understand is most of the Romans weren't really monogamous, so to speak, in their in their in their uh practice. Um but they but the big reason that they they held to monogamous beliefs is to pass on their lineage, so that when you know, when the the father figure died or whatever, there was one family essentially that the majority of his wealth went to so that his empire or his you know it didn't get split up amongst multiple families. Yeah, it kind of was a way to maintain power, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, it's it's a prioritization of resource allocation. God, that's so interesting. The background on the romance. I did not know that, but it completely tracks. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah. Yeah, and and like you're saying, non-monogamy, you you see that a lot more in like, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, kind of thing, where there's not really even sometimes there's not even clear parenting. There's like like you're you're saying there's, you know, like native people where everybody kind of has a job and everybody helps take care of the children. And there, you know, there's lots of non-monogamy spread throughout several cultures in that that type of way.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

I feel like the oh, bless you. Sorry. No, you're fine. I feel like the the philosophy of of collectivism too really overlaps with the non-monogamous philosophy of like, it's not possible to get all of your emotional resourcing met by one singular person. And so the, you know, by everyone according to their skill to everyone according to their need ethos of more socialist or collective systems seems to overlap really, really well with that idea of like, no, you can get your emotional support from someone who's really, really well equipped of to provide emotional support. You can get certain kinds of sexual reward from partners that you're really compatible with, you can get intellectual reward from partners that you're really intellectually compatible with. And you don't have to put the demands of all of that labor onto one individual.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah, no, I think that that makes a lot of sense to me. Uh, so so in your book, I guess what what kind of research did you do into the non-monogamy?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

So for the first book, um, it really focuses on a monogamous pairing of adolescents. So these are people who in book one, um, they're 16 to 20 years old. But I have begun drafting uh the third book, which focuses on a triad relationship. And I'm gonna try really hard not to spoil things for my readers. Um, but I did a lot of reading on relational dynamics when there is a secondary partner involved and the debate in non-monogamy communities of hierarchical relational structures, of having a primary secondary versus um more like non-hierarchical structures. I'm not exactly sure what the language is that would be used, but just people have multiple partners and there's not like a place of primacy or this initial pairing, and how that changes structures of power. So not only power of, you know, negotiating who's gonna do the home labor, who's gonna do the grocery shopping, whatever, but um, intimate power, whose emotional and sexual needs are prioritized in any of those setups. What are the responsibilities for self-advocacy and partner advocacy if you're in a hierarchical versus a not relationship? Like if you have a primary pairing, oftentimes it seems to me from my reading and from anecdotal evidence that that partnership will negotiate together and then they will communicate to their secondary or whoever is sort of invited into a triad what they as a pair want or need from that other person, how things are going from their paired perspective. And that sets up a power differential where you have two people communicating as a unit, and then one person who's set intentionally or not on the outside. Um, and it was really interesting to write the ethics of that relationship. Um, there's also an age gap in this dynamic. So you have one person who is younger advocating for themselves with an established long-term couple that has sort of opened their relationship. And that the ethics of that get really gritty. And so much of non-monogamy is focused on this conversation of relational ethics and well-being of how do you make sure that you're moving through these spaces in a way that minimizes harm and really maximizes reward for everyone involved. And trying to articulate that was, I think, really beautiful and very challenging, um, especially from someone who's currently monogamously partnered. So I wanted to ask a lot of people questions and get a lot of wisdom and insight from people who are currently practicing non-monogamy rather than just like trying to write non-monogamy as like a little currently monogamous girl, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Well, that's interesting, you know. So me and Lacey are are swingers. So we are, I guess, the a primary partnered couple and we mostly just invite people into our relationship for you know, for pleasure, for you know, exploration and things like that. But we do have several friends that have gone down the uh uh trying to be polyamorous route. And and what you're describing there is is, I think, a real struggle. And and really the reason me and Lacey have been like, you know, that we just don't want to go down that route because it's it seems so complicated to because like you're saying, I think it's natural that when you're in a long-term relationship, when you're in a marriage, even if you want to invite somebody into that relationship when it's already established, it's hard not to then prioritize that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, and I think that's where informed consent is so vital. And I think what the, you know, wisdom of the non-monogamy community or like the poly community, how that overlaps with the wisdom from the kink community again, really beautifully. Where if you invite someone into a primary partnership and you're very, very clear with them of look, we've been together a decade, we know, or plus or whatever, we know each other really, really well. This person is my person. I want to and need to prioritize their well-being in order for our relationship to continue to thrive. And it's important to us that you know the situation you're coming into, that like we know each other really, really well. We know each other's needs quite well. We don't know you or your needs as well. So um, it's important to us that you're able to advocate for yourself or speak up if we're if we're causing emotional distress in some way or if there's something else that you need. And part of informed consent is also knowing if you are the kind of person that can meet that paradigm, right? Like someone knowing, oh, yes, I can definitely advocate for myself with a partnership. Like I feel confident speaking up for my needs. I feel comfortable with the fact that these two have told me that they're established and I know I'm coming in as a third party. That takes a lot of um insight, a lot of confidence about social and and um emotional skill, but is part of I think entering a polydynamic with informed consent.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. And I think where we've seen people struggle is even when they're going into it, knowing all that and and consenting to it.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

And having the best intentions, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

The reality of then once you're in it and then I guess feeling the being left out, or feeling like you're the third wheel, or feeling like you're being treated different. Uh or even, you know, a lot of what we see because we're swingers is couples in, you know, so there's two two paired couples are kind of trying to join and be in in a poly type relationship. And then that's even more dynamics because now you have two couples that are coming in with primary relationships and trying to give other partners you know time. I think it seems like it's a big thing, but also like you're saying, where you just naturally prioritize the partner that you've been associated with the long the longest.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah, and I I think too about the emotional calculus of that and triangulation in in psychology with um when you have multiple parties in conflict, like conflict resolution between four people is infinitely harder than conflict resolution between three is infinitely harder than conflict resolution between two, um, which is not to say that it's not possible, but I have so much um, and I don't want to fetishize either by saying, like, I have so much admiration for people who can do this, but I really feel like it takes a level of emotional insight about yourself and flexibility with others and regulation skills to enter a dynamic with yeah, with so much up in the air.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

To be honest, we have we've had three sets of friends that have engaged in this just in the last year or two. And only one is still together. Um they've all it's all kind of cracked and fell apart. And it's been hard to watch from the outside like in. Uh, it seems extremely difficult and like a lot of work. But then when we talk about like our dynamic and we explain what we do, I think of like a monogamous person, and I think they would think that what we do is crazy and like a lot of rules, a lot of boundaries, a lot of like things around it. And we kind of feel that same way about somebody that's engaging in like a poly type situation. So it's kind of funny to see the different perspective and how we all are quick to not judge, but kind of judge in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah, I feel like whenever the knee the knee-jerk reaction is like, oh my gosh, I could never that's like rarely coming from an open place.

SPEAKER_05 15:36

Yeah.

unknown 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

I'm I'm so curious. I've been noticing this trend online. Um, I used to do a lot of research on social media, and in particular, online disinhibition and like people behaving in ways on the internet that they would never behave in person. And one of the trends I've been observing is this like cheater outing trend on threads or on Twitter, where someone will be like, Oh, I was on this flight last week, and this man sitting in seat 65B was on Snapchat, but he had a wedding ring on. And so if you're his wife, blah, blah, blah, and they'll like disclose a bunch of personal information with the mission of like quote unquote catching a cheater without knowing that person's relational dynamic, without knowing um You could ruin someone's career. You could you could ruin someone's career, and and it's so it like erases the existence of poly and ENM people completely. It assumes like such a puritanical monogamy. And I'm curious if y'all have have thoughts on this, have had conversations about it. It just blows my mind that this is a thing that people participate in with such glee.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

I've seen a bunch of that. And to be honest with you, probably we have the same probably FYPs, me and you, but probably not Dan so much. But you know, honestly, I've never even thought about it, but you're 100% correct. I guess I've never even thought, like, if Dan was like on a flight somewhere and was messaging some girl and he had his wedding ring on, and it I guess because we're so public, but you're 100% right. If someone is like a private, non-monogamous person or engaging in that activity and someone saw that, that could be detrimental if their children saw it, if their church saw it, if their job. I mean, it would it that's huge. That's major. And I also don't think I think people should just stay in their own lanes, you know? Like it's none of our business if a man has a I mean, I think they think they're saving the wife, maybe. I think they think that they're I don't know, looking out for their fellow female, but maybe she's into it. You never know.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, this idea of like one single structure of girl code, I'm like, boop, not necessarily. Um, and I also feel like it's so different if it's in your own network, right? If it's like a beloved friend or oh, for sure. Yeah, and then it's like, hey, the you you get to do the data collection, right? Of like, are y'all open? Are you seeing other people like getting to know some of that before you step in and engage in serious intimate sabotage, which is always what it reads like to me when I see these posts and like the sensational reactions. Um, and it's just like people are pretending that non-monogamy doesn't exist or that polydynamics don't exist. Like you have no idea if this person was even breaking any rules, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

So you know, it's funny that you say that because just like recently, Dan and I are public swingers, everybody in our town knows. And we've recently found out that like another couple that we know is also, but nobody knows. And I'm thinking like somebody like them that nobody knows that they're engaging in this, and somebody seeing something like that, and how detrimental that would be to their family structure, to everything. And it's just really sad to think about. You just don't know what somebody's doing behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Yeah, I I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

And I think we forget that, you know, we think that everybody lives this very cookie-cutter life. And I think especially if you're not in like the non-monogamous or kink lifestyle, you and you're just a monogamous, pretty vanilla person. I think you think everybody else is kind of like you. I think if you realize that your teachers at your school, at the nurses at your hospital, they're all engaging, or not all, but a lot of them are engaging in this type of relationship practice. I think you would be shocked to see that the world is quite kinkier behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, the world is kinky. The world is um much more open-minded, I think, than we give each other credit for. We're mammals. We are mammalian. Like it is really monogamy, is like rare in animal setups. Um, and we have all of this added, I don't know, like sexy metacognition of getting to think about our thoughts and like think about our thoughts, about our feelings and feel things about our feelings, which then layers like kink and complexity into all of our intimate relationships. So we get to exist as animals with all of our animal instincts and then add on top of that a capacity that most creatures don't have for creativity, flexibility, and expansiveness. And we think it's gonna result in these like little boxes. No, no, no, it just doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah. Well, and then you know, and on top of your talking about uh people outing people on the internet, it's actually gotten to the point where there's a local Facebook group now. Yeah, where they're posting guys that have like like so it's like if you're trying to date a guy and you met him on Tinder or something, you can post a picture and these other girls will chime in and be like, Oh yeah, he's a cheapskate. He took me on. It's like how tall, like these people really exist, like in our hometown, and here you have basically a wall where you're just bashing any guy that's trying to date people because because maybe you had a bad experience with it.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Female perspective, though, okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate because, like, let's say you meet somebody on like Tinder or something like that, and you post him, and he is like a bad guy, you know. Like, maybe he's never been convicted of anything, but like he's not a good dude. It's kind of nice to get girls' feedback, but I again on this if I can't say that about what I said earlier and not agree with you because you're right. What if that person? I don't know, I guess if they're non-monogamous.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I do.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I like the I like the T. I want to know who's a dirty dog, you know. Um but I guess on the flip side though, if they were a non-monogamous person, they should be communicating that.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Then my other the flip side of that is also it's also the internet, and these people that are commenting, you have no idea they could be completely. Completely just making up whatever they're saying about this person just because they enjoy the the drama.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

They're making or they just like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I also think so. One of the debates in I I work in like violence prevention oriented psychology, so sexual assault prevention and um intimate partner violence, things like that. And there's like a recent-ish conversation about rape or sexual assault via deception, where it's like, in order for consent to be legitimate, it must be informed. If someone gives you information that is not correct in order to convince you to have sex with them, then your consent is null and void, which means that was like an assault of experience. So for example, if someone tells you, oh yeah, yeah, I'm single and they have a wife and children at home, and then you have sex with them predicated on the understanding of their singledom, and it turns out that they are partnered and you would never have given consent had you known that they were partnered, is your consent null and void? And is that, I mean, it's certainly experienced as an intimate betrayal, which can result in betrayal trauma. Is that assaultive? Like, how do we frame a violence experience that was perhaps not experienced as violence in the moment, but is retrospectively after people garner new information? Um, and I feel like some of these, um, some of these Facebook groups and the like this guy is a bad guy, information networks are preventing, in some cases, um, rape by deception or assault by deception. And at the same time, assuming a very boxed version of monogamy. And we just need to get comfortable having like gritty, gray, nuanced conversations that in a sex negative, really puritanical culture is really hard for us to get comfortable doing. Um, so I I present to the court the idea of rape via deception. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

That that is an interesting concept. I mean, it it definitely is like you're saying, there's trauma that's associated with that. If if it's you know, man, it goes even deeper than that. You know, I was in the military for 21 years, and you you see these situations where like this guy had two families and like two different towns or something like that, and had kids and things like that, and sometimes for years, and it's like one, how do you do that? But then two, like, how terrible for those, those, those people that you know are now involved in that.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, like entire foundational understanding of trust shattered for spouses, for children, for like the networks that have then observed that, being like, wow, human beings can really deceive each other at that layer of depth. It's a betrayal trauma, and it winds up being like a family networked and collective trauma, which I think the people who are being deceptive don't necessarily want to or perhaps not capable of seeing. Um, but I I've always found the rape via deception conversation to be so fascinating because so much of our understanding of sexual agreement is based on the idea of informed consent. And if your consent is no longer informed, is it void? I just I don't have the answer to that question, but it is an interesting question.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

All right. I think now's the perfect time to take a little break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the Swing Nation podcast. And then when we come back, uh we'll talk more with Katie.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Dan, if someone is just recently joining the lifestyle and they don't really know where to begin, what do you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Well, the lifestyle, you know, it's 2025. And people are on the internet. They are and there just so happens to be lifestyle websites that are dedicated to people connecting in the lifestyle. Yes. SDC happens to be one of our favorites. Over three million users. You can find people in your area, you can find clubs, you can find parties. All of it is right on SDC. Um, and you can get a huge discount by signing up with us.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

You can.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

So all you got to do is if you're looking for lifestyle people in your area, if you're looking for the clubs, if you're looking for the parties, go to thingnation.info, recommended apps and products, scroll down to the SDC icon. We'll give you a free trial. Yeah. You can check them out. You can see who's in your area, you can see if it's uh if it's the app for you, uh all completely risk-free. Yes. So just head on over to thingnation.info and get signed up for SDC today. Lacey, if you're gonna be a swinger, yeah, you need to be a responsible swinger.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Uh, and part of being a responsible swinger is getting tested on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Now, something I didn't know is not all STI STD testing is the same.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

That is correct.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Not every family doctor fully understands how you should be getting tested.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

That is correct. What one doctor thinks is a full panel, another doctor may have a completely different version of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

And being somebody in the lifestyle and engaging with multiple partners, um what you should be getting tested for is probably if you're not telling your doctor that, what you should be getting tested for is probably different than what they're thinking in their head.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah, because they don't know your lifestyle. Or, or even if they do know your lifestyle, there's a like, for instance, there is a new one called MGEN, and we just recently met a doctor at a lifestyle party and said that she had never even heard about it. And so she was awesome that we had educated her on that. So a lot of these doctors don't they don't know it all.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Right. So if you are going to participate in the lifestyle, you probably need to get tested from people that are meant to do this. Yes. Um, so we use I Know My Status. It's the same people behind talent testing who are the it's a company that tests all the porn stars. So they're used to testing people that um engage with multiple partners. They know all the latest on what STIs are you know coming up and and spreading, and they they track all the stats. I mean, they they know how to test people for STIs, they're the experts.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

They are. And if someone that you engage with, you know, if they have used I know my status, they can actually give you a QR code and you can scan it and you can see their results right on your phone. So you can confirm everything that they're telling you.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah, 100%. So please, if you're getting tested, get tested the right way. We recommend using I Know My Status. You can go to theswing nation.info, recommended apps and products, scroll down to the I Know My Status icon, and you can get a discount off your first test. Um, but please, if you're being uh if you're swinging, if you're engaging with the people in the community, please be safe about it. Go get tested.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Yeah, because we want you to fuck like a porn star for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Lacey, people are always asking, how do we get to a party or an event that you guys are hosting? Like, how do we find these things? Where do they exist?

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah, because we're pretty open about where we're gonna be. So if you want to find these places, you need to check out swingers.net.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Right. So you can go to swingersight.net, sign up for a profile. Most of our friends, most of the people that are attend our events, all are on there and have profiles. So you can message them, link up with them before party, get to know some people. Uh, please become a diamond member. Okay. So this is the way that we keep are able to throw events. It's a way we're able to have staff. Uh, really, it's the the community that keeps those memberships on swingersciety.net that really keep this whole thing running.

SPEAKER_05 29:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Um, if you're a diamond member, it gets you early access to tickets. Uh-huh. Uh, so you can get those VIP tickets in the clubs and you know those preferred rooms at a place like Secrets. Um, our Diamond members usually grab all that up. So if that's something that you're interested in, you definitely want to become a Diamond member, or if you just want to support us, support what we're doing, uh, and help us pay our staff, please go sign up and be a diamond member. Yes. It's super helpful for us. Uh, and you can do that by going to Swingersociety.net.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Uh, and sign up today. Hopefully, you come become part of our community, and we hope to see you at a future event. Yeah. Thanks, guys. All right, guys. Welcome back. Welcome back. We're sitting down with Katie, uh, talking all things non-monogamy from kind of the psychological perspective, which is kind of a new, I don't know if we've had that.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

I'm sure we've done some.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Um, so we're gonna talk a little bit more about her book, which is it's kind of funny that we're talking about the this book, because one of my 2026 goals, New Year's resolution, I don't know what you want to call it, was to read more. Uh to get myself from swiping so much. And anyway, so I went on TikTok because I vlog every day, and I you know, I told the people I'm like, I need something fun for a non-monogamous person. And anyway, so people recommend it. And I've been reading the series, and it's seven parts, and I do really like it. It's it's fun, you know, if there's a lot of sex, you know. I'm I'm into that. But if they own a sex club, but at the end of the day, everybody's monogamous. Like, it's like they the the writer tried, you know, to make it like fun and different, but they all probably because most people that are reading these type of books are probably monogamous. So anyway, I was when I was on live yesterday, I was talking to people. I'm like, we need more books like this, but I need my characters to be non-monogamous. So it's really neat that now we're talking to you and you're talking about so they own a sex club, but they don't they don't swing or swing. Yeah, they're they own a sex club, but they're they're monogamous.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Or like a BDSM kind of club where it's oh, it's a sex club, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

So they all end up monogamous. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Anyway, it's seems unlikely. I am.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

I'm like, come on, somebody in here has gotta be non-monogamous. And I'm like on the seventh book now, and so far, well, ones, I guess, poly, but um, and I was very happy about that. So, anyway, it's kind of neat that now we're having this conversation, you have a book, and your people are are non-monogamous. Uh so yeah, or you are they're gonna be, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah, they'll they'll get there. So, so the first book um follows them through their adolescence, and I wanted the crises of every book in you know, this trilogy to grow with the characters. And something, there's something to me, really adolescent, about obsessive possessiveness and obsessive jealousy. Um, I think that's something that, which is not to say people don't also struggle with that as they grow up in our different relationships and are in adult relationships. I think jealousy, possessiveness, and obsession plague all of us, whether we want to admit that or not. Um, but there was something so teenage about that original sense of like mind, mine, mine, mine, mine. And so that is very loud in the first book, but also causes these characters to do harmful things to each other. Because when you act from a place of really intense possessiveness, you're not always acting in the best interest of that other person. And so as these characters grow up and become more adult and more expansive in their imaginings of the world, their ideas about relational structures really change. And something I've been excited to write in later books is a sexual dynamic between two people in their 30s and um a much younger lover they take on who is 20 years old. And it's been fascinating, not only to write the sort of polydynamics of this, you know, primary pairing inviting a third into their relationship, but the age gap dynamics and the ethical conundra that it raises, if you are an adult and you're taking on a lover who has an adolescent brain, even if they are absolutely of the age of consent. Um, and on the flip side, if you're two people, you know, in their 30s and you are learning sexual ethics from someone in their 50s or 60s who's been in the in the kink and swinging scene for a long time. And I'm really curious, this is like a little researchy for the book, but also just, you know, from your perspectives, when the two of you have had experiences swinging with people either older or younger than you, what have been some of the questions that have come up for you about, okay, what's the best way for us to do this? And has anything really surprised you about those age dynamics?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

No, it's it is interesting you bring that up because I I think what you just described is somewhat common in the lifestyle, is where you have, you know, couples that are established in a primary relationship and they engage, you know, we call them unicorns. I don't know if that's a term you're familiar with, but yeah, in the swinging swinger space, that's what they call a a single female that engages with couples. They call it a unicorn, mostly because it's yeah, you're right, it's hard to find. But a lot of unicorns are younger females, and and I don't I or it's like somebody that got divorced or something like that. That's usually the two cases, right? It's easier either a a younger female that's coming into this space and kind of exploring it for the first time and and she's not partnered, or it's you know, that there was a couple that was probably they were probably swingers and then they ended up divorced, and so the female ends up being, you know, a single kind of in the space. Um and so you do see older couples, you know, engaging with younger females, and uh, you know and we've done it, we did it as recently as on the last cruise. You know, partnered. She was partnered, but she she was younger, yeah. Uh and but I don't know. I think for the most part in this space, you don't you don't really treat everybody's kind of treated like an adult. And you know, you you do the consent thing, but you don't really ch treat because somebody's in their twenties or somebody's because somebody's in their forties or fifties, I don't think you really I don't think we really treat them differently.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Not not different, but we we don't do a whole lot of emotions involved in our swing. Do we get to know people? Do we care like about them like at a high level? Yes. Like we don't want anything to happen to you.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

We don't like date them, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

We don't, but we don't actively like court them and date them and really invest a whole lot of time into their emotional well-being. So I guess for us, maybe it really, as long as they're a consenting adult and seem to have their emotions in check, we don't really do much of anything extra. Um, especially if they're they're young, we we I mean, I guess or old, it doesn't really matter. We just sort of treat them how we would anyone else. Now, I will say that like early on when Dan and I were first married, we did have a single female that was kind of a hot mess. Well, we never actually slept with her. Uh we just took her to dinner and then she became very like you would have thought Dan rocked her world or something, but he didn't. Um she just was very needy and and we kind of very quickly were like, this is not something that this is a no. Yeah, that we're not gonna entertain this because we are not gonna, it's just too much emotion, too much neediness, and we're just here for a good time, not for a long time. Yeah. But I I do see that if you're gonna engage if you're gonna be more polyamorous and you're gonna engage like long term with someone and really want to nurture that, I can definitely see where you would probably put more work into someone that's younger to make sure that they are overly consent, you know, that they're okay, that they're you know I mean, and not to say that we don't care because we do care. We're just not I don't know, what's the word I'm looking for to get or not?

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I don't know which word you're looking for. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

But yeah, we care, but we don't we don't care that much. Is that not so?

SPEAKER_01 38:19

No, I don't think it sounds awful. I don't think it does. I think I mean it makes sense if, as you said, like you're there for a good time, not a long time, they're of age, they consent, and they seem like they're you know in their right mind, um, in in that they're well regulated and able to communicate with you, right? I'm curious too if there's like has there been a time or could you imagine a time when like maybe some pink flags are raised of like, oh, like this person doesn't have a lot of experience, or this is their first time doing this, or whatever, where like you would proceed, but there'd be a different type of communication.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Yeah, I think like for instance, that girl that was definitely that we talked about. She definitely came across like very needy, very like she definitely wanted to like talk to Dan without me. So that was definitely that was more like red flags, but definitely like somebody like for instance, Dan just recently played with a girl that was 22. I think she was like one of the youngest people on the cruise. And I would say that you probably handled her not with kid gloves, because that sounds awful, but like you were probably nicer, you know, like not nicer.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

I don't know if that's the word, but you yeah, you make sure, like you check in a little more than you would, or you you're like, is this okay? Look at her partner and say, Hey, yeah, are you okay with the you know, maybe just to take a little bit more precautions with that person to make sure that they're that everybody's on the same page, but yeah, like there is a standard because we're always making sure of consent, we're checking in with the partner, all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

But I think like with somebody that is so young and new to the lifestyle, I think like double doing all of that is probably like the standard.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

But I think we do that, I don't know if that's so much of an age thing as it is like an experience thing. Yeah, you know, I mean, I I wouldn't tie that directly to her age because I could see a if there was a couple that was in their 30s or 40s, but we knew like, hey, this is their first cruise, this is their first swap, this is their first time experiencing something like this. You know, me and Lacey have done this with several couples where they're brand new to the lifestyle, and you just you just take it a little slower, you make sure that you you're communicating with everybody and saying, Is this okay? Is that okay? Okay, partner, hey, uh you see what's going on here, you're okay with that too. Yeah, yeah, everybody's good. I think and we've done that. I don't I don't know if that's so much in the age thing, is it just as a hey, we know they're new to this, so take it slow.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Because it was very recent and she was so young. So maybe that's why I'm putting the age, but you're right, we do that for anybody that's newer. It's not we do it for everyone, but I think we go an extra step for anybody that's newer to this.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Well, y'all sound very responsible.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

I'm still trying really hard.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah, yeah. I but it comes through too, like even in the way that you talk about it and the way, you know, even with partner check-ins, I'm reflecting back on the I was in a sort of poly dynamic in my, I guess, mid-20s. It was a really established couple. They were engaged in getting ready to be married, and I was there like unicorn as you know, a young bisexual woman. I was interested in both of them. Um, and for me, I think one of the things I'm concerned about portraying in this book, and I really want to interrogate is the idea of almost like the manic pixie dream unicorn of like, here's this younger person who is newer to the lifestyle, and um, and they're gonna fix all of our problems, right? Maybe there's relationship conflict, maybe there's bed death, maybe there's some other, you know, intellectual, emotional, or sexual stagnation. And here we have, and and I mean this to sound objectifying because this is a little bit how it felt. Like here we have this fresh meat in our bedroom.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

And I can relate to that.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would love to unicorn experience. I was a unicorn too, and that's exactly how it felt. I always describe myself as like the shiny new object that a couple would bring in. And then, you know, sometimes the women were very bi and they were like wanted me, but a lot of them were just like deal with him, you know, like if he's happy, if he's content, then I can go and have a lot of fun, which sometimes I didn't mind, you know, because I definitely I'm bi, but I'm definitely love a penis, probably more. So I a lot of times I would be okay with that, but then other times it almost felt like I don't know, like I was just there. It's just there or their sex objects, yeah. As a play toy, as a play toy, yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, it's like how many holes do I have? Like the whole fleshlight effect of like, I want to be here as a full human being. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Yeah. But on the flip side, that was also kind of why I was in the lifestyle. I wasn't looking for like these deep, romantic, deep emotions. I wanted to have hot sex and get to go home and not have to deal with any of the bullshit that comes with it, with being a part, you know, in a partner relationship. I just wanted to show up, have fun, and then leave. And so, yeah, sometimes it was hard because I did feel like that shiny object or, you know, the sex doll or the sex toy. But on the flip side, sometimes that was awesome because then I didn't have to deal with the husband and the wife the next day when they were arguing over, you know, I just got to go home. And so it was like it had its good points and its bad points.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

I hear that so loudly. And I'm also hearing both of us layer like a kink dynamic or philosophy onto this. Maybe without naming it, of like, okay, say you are this like um this unicorn coming in, or like the manic pixie dream third. And at the same time, you have a kink dynamic that's like more submissive or submissively oriented. And so the idea of like objectification, dehumanization, humiliation, degradation play, et cetera, is enticing. Like there's something sexy about it. But then you do have to go home and like feel your feelings about it and be like, oh, I really was just treated like, you know, whatever kind of thing they needed. And like, yeah, it was fun in the moment, but like, did you get sufficient aftercare? Did they like make sure you were back to your personhood afterwards? Like, did you have to tend to your personhood then by yourself? Like, yeah, that's sort of how it felt for me. And I was like, this is a great skill. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

It did for me too. And what's funny is we have a friend who is recently divorced in the last year, and she's engaging in a you know being a unicorn. And she says she loves it until like the end of the night. Like she misses her partner. She because they were, you know, she was a swinger in the lifestyle. She misses like having her husband to go home to bed with like and kind of debrief on the night and stuff. And I get that. I can 100% uh get that. So I think for people listening to this, if you engage with unicorns or single people, I think this is like a good uh like thing to listen to because you don't want the women that you're engaging with to feel this way. So I think that's a good thing for people to hear, yeah. Especially go for it.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Well, flip that though, uh because say we engage with a a a single female. Yeah, uh do you want them sticking around and cuddling and you say you're saying you're saying stick around and cuddle?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

So that's she what she's saying is two things can be true. I don't really want to be like I enjoy the fact that I get to just hop in and have sex and then I get to go home. But also, I think there's a way that you can still do that, but still be respectful. You could still check in, you could still be like, hey, we had a great time, you know. Like, I think there's ways to like still treat someone like a human without like laying in the bed and caressing them for four hours after you're done, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

So I guess it would depend on each person's needs, but yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

And I just think like communication around that is probably the best way to handle it.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

And I think too, a lot of the labor that I've seen ENM and like poly couples perform has wound up being fairly gendered, where like the person to do the like emotional wellness check the next day of like, hey babe, how are you feeling? We had fun, hope you had fun. Good luck with your next uh escapade or whatever, has been like the wife, like the woman partner or the girlfriend or whatever. And the people who like are really absolved of doing that emotional work for a third or a guest or whatever are the men. And so then I'm looking at you, talk to your men people.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah, but also you have to communicate between the couple because that might upset the wife the next day. You know, if the husband is overly eager to like check in and coddle this single girl that came in. So I think like I think that's wow, that's such a good point. Yeah, I think it totally depends on the relationship. I think that the husband and wife say need to say, okay, she came, we had fun. We don't want to treat her like an object, she might like that, but we need to like check fine, we need to check in. So, do you want me to do it? Are you comfortable? Are you want to do it?

SPEAKER_00 47:34

You know, I just think in a group message or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Yeah, I think every couple is gonna have a different dynamic, you know. So I think like as long as they're like communicating and talking about it, I think that it's as long as someone does it, I think that's okay. I'd rather someone do it than no one do it.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah. And I also feel like if you're gonna be the unicorn in the third, as y'all were saying before, like acknowledging too that that rehumanization process, if that's like not something that a couple that you're playing with has on offer of like, listen, we're not gonna hold you for four hours afterwards. Like, that's not our dynamic. That's not what we do with guests or playmates. Learning what those skills are for yourself so that when you get home, you can re-enter like a different kind of uh humanity is not exactly what I mean. Like sexual subjectivity, maybe, or like well, in the king space, you'd call it you'd call it like subdrop, right? Like that's what Yeah, like when you're dealing with subdrop, but I think there's something really particular about like, you know, if you're if you're subbing with someone and then you have subdrop, but they are your partner and you have access to aftercare, like that's a very different sociosexual resourcing than if you are the unicorn or the visitor, and then you have subdrop and you're home by yourself and you don't have like a dom who is there for your aftercare. It's like, oh shit, I have to like be in my feelings by myself now. Um, and so it's important insight to be like, am I able, do I have the skills to take care of myself sufficiently in that context? And if not, what skills do I need to develop if I really am finding this like lifestyle and style of play rewarding? Like we we can figure it out. I'm not saying that's like not an option for people, but it's it's good to remind yourself to build the skills.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

One piece of advice that I do give, like if you like come in and say they're unicorns, what advice is one thing I didn't realize is that I could have my own boundaries, you know. Like when you think of like boundaries, you think of them like around a couple, like the couple like plays together, they wear protection, they you know, whatever, no kissing, they could have a laundry list. But as a single girl, I I because I kind of just threw myself in the line. So I didn't really realize that, like, wait a second, I am my own like entity and I can have my own boundaries. And so I would say that like learning yourself and like learning what you need.

SPEAKER_05 50:03

And then up front.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

Yeah, you come you come in with it up front and just and you can meet a couple and you could totally hit it off, but maybe they don't provide something that you need. Well, then you know that like maybe that's not one that you you want to actively play with. Because there's so many couples out there that want to engage with females that you kind of have like your pick. So if you if you just kind of put it out there, what you're looking for, like if you do need that four hours of cuddle, if you put that out there, there's gonna be someone that's gonna meet that emotional need if that's something that you need. And so that's something that I didn't quite realize and think until towards the end of, you know, about the time I met Dan, was I needed to advocate for myself and my own needs and and put out there exactly what I needed for this to be a success. And I just sort of was like going with every couple's boundaries and their needs and kind of putting those first. And so I think either a single guy or a single girl, I think regardless, I think you have the right to have your needs met and communicate those needs or boundaries, however you want to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Totally. And I think too about the like evidence-based skills in therapy and in BDSM spaces that would apply here of like if I have a client and I'm talking them through sexual safety, we talk about like a will-won't want list of like, here's what I'm willing to do, here are my hard limits and boundaries, and here are things that I really desire. Um, and and often I'll like talk to people, not only clients, but like people in my life who don't really know what those are because of limited experience. And so this is from like the sex therapy perspective and the writer perspective of like literally write out if you can your best case scenario and your worst case scenario of like if everything went really, really well playing with the couple, this is like my dream scenario of what would happen. And then if things really went off the rails in a way that I found like harmful, this is what would happen, and be able to articulate that to the people. First of all, articulate it to yourself and then be able to articulate it to the people you're gonna play with.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Yeah, I think a lot of people just want to have hot sex and they just hop into this, not knowing that things could go very badly, like not preparing themselves for what happens when, like, if you're the man, your dick doesn't get hard, but then your wife's getting like you know, her mind blown on the other side of the room. Like, how is that gonna feel? So I think I think you're right, writing all that down or at least talking about it, what happens if this happens, I think is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Yeah, and and the gut check too is so vital when it comes to sex at all. Like maybe you don't have to do all of that preparatory labor. Maybe you meet people and they seem lovely and trustworthy, and your body gets a good vibe being around them, and then you go and you have mind-blowing sex and it's great, and you don't have to have spoken through all of the will, won't, want, best case, worst case, et cetera. But again, it's just like adding to your skill set, adding to your arsenal.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Yeah. And I think, you know, I feel like swingers are pretty good at the hey, prior to engaging in sex, these are our rules, these are our boundaries. I think every for the most part, I think most of us are pretty good at that. But I do think the post stuff is almost non-existent. I don't I you don't see that a lot in the space. Some couples are pretty good about you know sending a text or something the next day. I writ, you know, I had a good a good time last night. Thanks, guys, you know, or something like that. But it definitely doesn't get to the level of like BDSM and you when you're talking about like, you know, subdrop and and and aftercare and all that kind of stuff. There I I think that's something that our community just i isn't super great at.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Yeah. Well, I think because it's for so long it's been like the swinging lifestyle has been like emotionless or supposed to be, you know, it's just hot hookups. You just hook up and then you go your separate ways. And so I mean I do feel like I've seen like even a shift just in you and I'm dynamic. Now you know, we used to play with somebody once or twice and then we never talk to them or see them again, and that still happened some, but for the most part, the people that we engage with are our friends that we've gotten to know and that we care about, and so like now we do a lot of those follow-ups and stuff just organically because they're people that we talk to all the time, you know. So I think for us the lifestyle's kind of shifted, but I think overall a lot of swingers don't engage, you know, like they they want those hot hookups, and then you piece out and you never talk to them like you which might be the best case scenario for a swinging couple, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

It depends. Like some couples, that's what they're they like only want to engage one time with a couple and then they don't want to, you know, they don't want to get too close. They it's almost a thing that they do to protect their marriage. And we probably would have said that at some point about ourselves, but I definitely find that the longer we've done this, the more we've allowed some emotions to come in.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Yeah, I think the more secure you feel. I mean, I think the longer you do this, the more secure you feel in that primary relationship. So you're almost a little more willing to expose yourself to those emotions because you feel secure.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Yeah, there's less risk. There's it it just feels less risky. Yeah. Which I totally makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Yeah, because when you first start, you uh you're uh afraid.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Oh yeah. You know, how many emails do we get a week that says we really want to try this, but I'm afraid my partner's gonna fall in love with somebody, or I'm afraid we're gonna we're gonna end up divorced, or I'm afraid like there's a whole bunch of fear, I think, initially coming into it.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

And I think what happens is like you do it once and you're like, Oh, I I still love you, you know, and then like and then you do it, you know, and then like slowly you kind of start peeling back those layers, and at some point you realize that like you can do this and like then still go have breakfast with the couple the next morning and like laugh, and like nobody's leaving each other for each other, you know, like we can have sex and do these fun things, but still maintain our primary relationship.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

All right, Katie. Well, that we're we're getting short on time, but I wanted to give you a little bit of time uh to to plug yourself. So if people are interested in this conversation and and the things you you you've said here, uh, where can they find their their your book? Where can they find more about you?

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Yeah, absolutely. So you can follow me on social media on Instagram at KW Bogan or Kwbogan underscore books for my author account. I'm also on TikTok and threads um and up scrolled also at kwban all over the place. The book is called Queering Him. It is the first in the Avra and Kieran trilogy. It is incredibly kinky, erotic, bisexual. Um, I hope y'all absolutely enjoy it. And then if you're interested in more of my psych-oriented research, you can follow me, Katherine Vella Bogan, on Google Scholar, which is where most of my academic papers wind up being posted. And thank you both so, so, so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

I think Lacey just ordered your book.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

No, I just added it. I have the Goodreads, I have the Goodreads app. So I just added it to my wants to read because I wanted to. If I put it in there now while you say it, I won't forget because otherwise I'll start doing something else. So I wanted to hell yeah, I've been looking for another book, so I'm excited. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Lacey's been reading all these sex books, and then we're driving down the highway, and she's like, I need you to fuck me. And I'm like, baby, we're going 80 miles an hour right now.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

I don't think you're about to be going 80 miles an hour, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

It benefits you to let me or not let me for me to read uh sex books.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

So I hear that from couples all the time. It's like, let me read my steamy novel, and then I will drag you to the bedroom. Good for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Yeah, because a lot of times I'll read like before bed and stuff, and I'll be like, Hey, we go, we go to bed at different times. We're one of those couples. It works for us, but I'll be, I'll text them from the bed. I'm like, hey, come to you. And he's like, You're just looking. You're just I'm like, just take it, just take it. It's hot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Well, I um I hope you enjoy the book and that you find it inspirational. I'm sure I will.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

All right. Well, anything else you want to um tell the swing nation listeners before we go?

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Um, I would say the wisdom of of swingers, ENM folks, poly folks, kink practitioners, BDSM practitioners are all of these really stunning Venn diagrams. And gosh, if we could get our communities to like talk to each other lovingly, I feel like there's so much wisdom to glean. I took so much away from this conversation and just thank you for having me. I'm really delighted to have been here.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Thank you. And thanks for doing. If y'all don't know, we're how what time is it there where you are?

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Uh, three o'clock in the afternoon. I'm in Paris. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

It's 8 a.m. in the U.S., we're in the Southern Central Time. So yeah, we we we we got up early and she adjusted her schedule for us, so we made it work.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

Y'all are the best. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Thank you, Kitty. It was a great conversation, and we appreciate you spending some time with us. All right. Well, I think with that, in a world full of apples, be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, only fans, and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Twitter content creators on our Twitter Society Discord program. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at dustwination at gmail.com. Make sure you head on over to dustwination.net and keep up to date on all things at Point Nation. Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Goodbye.