Andrew helps clients like the NBA, Pinterest, Ted, and KPMG with their online learning strategies, and he believes, "A learner's time is too precious to waste on poor quality training that doesn't reflect your brand", but you're not one of these big companies so we thought we'd bring Andrew to YOU!
Andrew will share his strategies for:
- How to assess your content: is it stale? unengaging?
- How to assess your training: many are unsustainable, is yours?
- How to grow your online course: is it not as impactful as you'd like?
- How to consistently find those leads!
Find out why Andrew gets hired by some of the biggest brands in the world, and let him help you with yours!
Andrew helps clients like the NBA, Pinterest, Ted, and KPMG with their online learning strategies, and he believes, "A learner's time is too precious to waste on poor quality training that doesn't reflect your brand", but you're not one of these big companies so we thought we'd bring Andrew to YOU!
Andrew will share his strategies for:
- How to assess your content: is it stale? unengaging?
- How to assess your training: many are unsustainable, is yours?
- How to grow your online course: is it not as impactful as you'd like?
- How to consistently find those leads!
Find out why Andrew gets hired by some of the biggest brands in the world, and let him help you with yours!
Welcome to lifelong educators where we have a community of people, of educators, of parents, of people who are just concerned about the state of education, perhaps their own projects that they want to bring to the table to make education a better place, a better place for our children and for adults to learn. So today we have a very special guest. We have Andrew Berry. He is the CEO of curious lion, which is an educational and HR consulting firm. Good morning. Fantastic. And also today, my co-host who is CEO of click to an online learning platform. And good morning to you. Don't tell him
Dotan Tamir:during the morning to you good morning to our guests, our attendees.
Andrew Barry:And
Jackie Guzda:I'm glad that you mentioned our attendees because this is a program today where those of you out in the community can pick the brain of Andrew Berry. He can advise you as to your own projects, maybe, uh, you're in the early development stages. Maybe you're later along in the game, but this is the man who can advise you. So I will tell you that Andrew helps clients like the NBA, Pinterest, Ted KPMG, and other with their online learning stress. He believes that alert is time is too precious to waste on poor quality training that doesn't reflect your brand, but you're not one of those big companies. So we thought we would bring Andrew to you. So go ahead. If you have questions, comments, please put them in the chat and Andrew will answer them directly. So, Andrew, could you tell us a little bit about your firm curious lion?
Andrew Barry:Yeah. So, um, that was a lovely intro. Thank you. We we've been, I started this company about six years ago and I think like most companies. Uh, we've evolved quite a bit in terms of what we do. Um, at the beginning we did whatever opportunities that came in the door asked for. Um, and, and we were, uh, pretty much, uh, all purpose learning development shops. So we did everything from e-learning to video, to some, uh, some live facilitation. Um, but I'd say what we've really started to specialize in, in the last year and a half, two years, probably around the time. Yeah. Since the beginning of 2020, uh, is what I'm calling the curious line learning flywheel. So it is our approach and our methodology for helping companies create cultures of continuous learning. So, and it's, it's sort of, uh, basically the basic concept is bringing people together, leveraging what I believe. And I think everyone in this audience probably agrees that we learn best from each other. So we designed ways to leverage asynchronous content that already exists. We can also create that for our. Um, to, to get people a lens through which to talk through topics and then redesign ways to bring them together to have those discussions, because it's in the live getting together part that the real high, high leverage, uh, learning happens. And, uh, yeah, that's what, that's what we've been doing most recently for companies.
Jackie Guzda:Hmm. When you say live getting together part, you mean online,
Andrew Barry:of course, like we're doing right now. Yeah, exactly. Wow,
Jackie Guzda:fantastic. Um, I mean the people that are tuning in today or listening to the podcast or watching the zoom might have their own projects already in development. And so, I mean, I am a college professor myself and I have developed my own online learning programs for my students. So how do I know. And how do the people out there know if it's good or good enough? How do we assess it?
Andrew Barry:Yeah. So, so again, so starting from the top, um, I like to think of it as first identifying different roles that you need to be conscious of when you're designing the learning and, and delivering it actually. And that's the learner and there's four different roles. So the learner and the peer, which is the same interchangeable person, but they are all learners, but there's also that counterpart that they learn with. Right. Uh, then you've got experts and then you've got the teacher or facilitator. And if you picture those four going around the flywheel, you've got learners learning from peers, the content or subject matters coming from experts, which could be. Internal, it could be internal experts. And often as companies get mature, that is where it all comes from the sort of traditional SME or subject matter expert. Um, but it goes to the external experts. So we'll often bring in specialists in certain topics that will come and sort of deliver some content for people. Um, and then the facilitator and teacher role is kind of the key one where that live component comes in. Um, so w how this all comes together is in a learning sprint. So what we, we designed for clients, it's typically a two week sprint for one topic, and typically a project is, is a six week or three topic, uh, deliverable. And in those six weeks, there will be. Asynchronous content that learners need to consume in their own time. Right? So like videos, uh e-learning whatever the case may be. Most of the cases for the types of companies that we work with now, that's custom developed stuff, right? So we'll, we'll, we'll create videos for them. We'll create the e-learning, um, we'll script, you know, all that kind of stuff. But for companies just starting out for organizations, and I'm sure as, you know, Jackie, this stuff exists out out there. You know, the content exists all over the place. It's free on YouTube. It's in a brilliant articles online. It's in books. It, it exists out there. So the job there is curation, right? And that in that beginning of the sprint, just curated the right content for the learners to consume to again, have that lens, to have discussions, meaningful discussions around that topic. That's sort of the key of that and it, and you've got to resist the, the other piece of this is to stuff it with everything you've got to like really cut down to remove all the extraneous content. It gets to the really essential content. How do you do then? Sorry, say that
Jackie Guzda:again. So I know exactly what you're saying. There's so much content out there. How do I get rid of the stuff I don't need and target that, which I do.
Andrew Barry:Yeah. So that's the way the learning outcomes are so essential. So in the discovery and the sort of a product of the discovery phase of our work and then design, we're getting to a very specific learning outcome for going back to that sprint model. Right? So for a topic, there'll be a very specific learning outcome that learning outcome is framed in terms of an action. So what do you want to learn is to be able to do by the end of the. Sprint. Um, and that's super cute. And then it's just designing the content or curating the content. Like I said, in a way that gets to that outcome and anything that's oh, that's interesting. But you know, kind of tangential to that needs to be to remove because it's not, it's not driving at that ultimate outcome. That's why it's so important to get that carrot seed. And then once you've got that in place, and you've got that the right content that primes them, right. That a, another learning concept there. So they are primed to come into the live session, which is sort of the second, what's it? It's, it's part of that two week sprint, because generally we do two live sessions. One is to discuss what they've just covered. Um, they'll come into that primed again with, with specific reflection questions. So reflection is another very, very important aspects of this as well. So they've consumed some content. They've, they've answered the reflection questions, which they do on their own, and then they come to a live event, uh, to discuss that, uh, the, the key thing with the live event. It needs to create. And this is where the facilitator teacher role plays, uh, plays the part. It needs to create an open space for people to get vulnerable and honest and open with what you're, what they are, what they've taken away from that content and to get them to bring out their real world experiences of that content. Right. That's the other, that's the other key piece. And they then leave that first session with specific actions that they need to take Um, and, and this is there. This is sort of tying together. It's sort of these three PS that I often talk about personal meaning, which is the reflection we talked about, um, the prompts to action, which is what I mentioned at the end of that first session. They leave a specific actions that committed to take. And then the third P is peer to peer learning, which is, you know, that overall interaction, um, which you can, we can get into the specifics of that on those live sessions, break cards and that kind of thing. But they basically then go off into the outside world, take those actions. So maybe it's a, it's a course on how to, on coaching conversations. And so they'll commit to go and have a conversation with someone on their team. And they'll set that meeting up. They'll apply some framework that they may have learned, uh, you know, that in the asynchronous content, in which they listed and discuss with their peers and a facilitator, and they left with some actionable things, they wanted to practice. And so they got, and they have a real world interaction and implement that framework. And then they reflect on that. And then the second session of that two week sprint, they get back together to debrief how it went and what did they talk about? Um, and, and, uh, yeah, and that that's way, honestly, that sort of facilitated plays a much, much more passive role. And the participants we found in all the companies you've worked with are so active in that, because I mean, they're just, they realize that everyone has similar issues to them. Similar challenges. They've all got different experiences of things that have worked and not worked. And that's just incredible to watch as they start to, to share that and, and help each other troubleshoot. And, you know, master sit in school,
Dotan Tamir:No, I entered it first. It sounds, um, it sounds like it's a science. I mean, I know it's, it's, it's a science, there's, there's so many factors here, there, and you it's a mix of arts and science, I would say. Um, and you mentioned that we could go a little bit deeper into the interaction. Um, and I, and I wanted to ask you, because you speak a lot about the content they used to say, the content is the king and these days, as you said, content is everywhere, right? No, we don't, I don't need anybody for five for getting content. I can search and get any content I want. And obviously once it's curated and the ones that get unleashed, the, the ones, the, the pieces that I need for my outcomes, that's already a great step, but what's the role or how can the course be designed to be really interactive, engaging in a way that. Content is just one piece of it, but really the experience makes that course, that unique experience that they want, that, that stays
Andrew Barry:with me. Yeah. So I, I, I'm glad you mentioned at the top of that, that there's a lot of moving parts to this, so it it's, it's tough to explain it all in one go, but, but I, um, I appreciate you kind of diving into this one aspect of it. So this is a, a deep dive into sort of those three Ps a little bit more because those really fundamentally increase, increase that engagement or motivation of the learner Um, and so the first one prompts the actions to making it very real world. So any examples use, uh, um, you know, I'm a big fan of, um, cognitive task analysis that really trying to unpick from those experts. One of the, one of the four roles, um, uh, what is it. The actual, like actual, real lived experiences of theirs, what decisions do they make? What cues did they observe? What strategies did they use? All that kind of stuff. Um, and then having the learners commit to taking real action and reflecting on that. So that that's that one. And then the personal meaning is that reflection, like, why am I learning about this? How do I want to use this skill of coaching? Right. And so that could be different for everyone. Um, and as a facilitator is sort of the learning designer, um, or the company that that's putting this together. I think you want to be thinking about how to broadly frame that overall transformation, but give people an opportunity to have their own take on it. Right. Cause everyone's is going to be different, um, and personal to them. Um, and then the peer to peer piece is, is the other one, which is to get super tactical on, on those calls. It's bringing people together and having them, um, using breakouts, for example. So. Putting them into small, small learning groups where, what we found is that is fishy, fishy. Cause people come in like some extroverts, somebody introverts, uh, some, uh, you know, some like a more like kinesthetic, some are like big talkers like it. So it's like a very, you know, it's obviously a big difference, but if you have, we find the smaller, the groups, the more people are comfortable to, uh, start to open up and share what's on their mind because that's ultimately what you want. Right? Like, so the three of us sitting here, uh, that I can see on the camera at least, uh, you know, in this learning pilot and we able to talk about, well, this is the experience I had with certain prompts, right. So we would design those prompts up upfront so that people know what to talk about. Um, and this is a whole science, like you said, to making people feel comfortable knowing what to talk about, like just creating the right environment for that conversation to take. Because, I mean, and that, that's kind of like the weird part at the end is it's very, it's not like bells and whistles to this. It's very organic, uh, the, the actual magic, cause it's like all organic, you put the preparation in to get it positioned for that. And then you just let the conversations happen.
Dotan Tamir:And I have to ask because you, uh, you speak about the online setting. Like it's so natural and normal. Um, it wasn't always like that. And, and how do you feel like about how people, um, took it before the pandemic? Was there any change in the last year and a half? Um, and the future? What do you think of what the future of this?
Andrew Barry:Yeah, so I think that's, that's a fascinating experience that we've all been through. I, I remember like at the end of 2019, so not even that long ago, It still felt weird to just jump on a zoom call with a stranger. Right. And be like, okay, well, yeah, like I met you on Twitter or LinkedIn and let's have a 30 minute call to get to Nosha then, um, that's like, not even two years ago that felt like it wasn't natural to do that. I remember that sort of thinking. Um, and then we, we turned the corner into 2020 and you know, personally I was going through a lot of online courses. So I was getting more comfortable with that, uh, that sort of feeling and like being thrown into a breakout room with two other people and, you know, you just, you just meet them and you start talking to them, but it was still like, there was still friction or this is something you have to get used to. And then the pandemic hits. I just think everyone, like we were faced with no other alternative. Right. So I just personally remember just being, so that was a big, big sort of change in my career or not pivot. An expansion into like more creator, uh, projects, as well as the, in addition to the company stuff I was doing. And that's, cause I was jumping on calls with people every day, just random people that I've met, that we connected over some kind of interest on, you know, mainly through writing. And then we're like, oh, let's have a conversation and jump on. And his 30 minute calls always leave with more ideas and more ideas for my own writing, but ideas to collaborate with people that I was just incredible. So I just kept doing it, kept her in I, so I just, I'm not speaking from personal opinion or perspective, but it's something that I got so much more comfortable with in 2020. And I think a lot of people did and you know, you're, you're the final party of Christian is the future. Like I just think that's going to get more and more. More comfortable people. I think there's going to be more ways for people to connect. That's not necessarily going to need like video FaceTime as well. Um, which is whole interesting, you know, we have three metaverse like connecting through advertise that kind of stuff, but probably a 10 tangential topic for this conversation. Um, but yeah, I just think it's going to get more and more connected and people, um, as the implications of that is just astounding that people can just connect across the world like we're doing now and, uh, and share ideas and find ways to.
Jackie Guzda:Hmm. Well, Andrew, you're talking about adults and dotage. I'm addressing this to you too, because I think you have experience with this when it comes to click too, is when I walk into a class and I'm having technical difficulties, the kids voluntarily come up and try to take over and help me. And I explained to them, it's not that I'm an inept person. It's just, you all were born with these in your, in your Palm and I wasn't. So Andrew talking about adults and how we have adapted. What about children who have been online since
Andrew Barry:birth? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's I have an 18 month old son, so I haven't fully experienced, you know, he has, obviously he's not online yet, but, um, I, so I can't speak from personal perspective here, but I think just looking at. I mean, the sort of an example, this, this, uh, this thing that we've been talking about, being able to connect with people on Twitter and all sorts of, uh, online platforms. I find myself working on little mini projects and collaborating with and sharing ideas with people who often I find later, like almost 15 years old, uh, younger than me. Um, but just so comfortable with, and I'm not just talking about the actual technology, right? It's. The way of communicating online, the methods of getting attention, the, um, the way to like communication style, all these kinds of things, which to your point, I think you can only really pick up by being in it. And certainly when you start native, um, it's a, it's a big step up for people, uh, as opposed to having to figure it all out. Um,
Jackie Guzda:don't tell him what have you discovered in your journey and click to about that kind of thing?
Dotan Tamir:Well, when we, we started a click to, uh, as a result of realizing that kids, uh, feel so natural in the online space, it, it it's something that personally, I, I didn't know until the pandemic started, I was always a person of, uh, you know, we have to do everything in person. And then education is when you actually meet people. And then there's the magic and the growth. And then we saw kids communicating with each other, dancing with each other online live, um, and reacting even better. And in the educational progress, even faster on. That's that was mind-blowing at the beginning. Um, but then, you know, everything that Andrew says just makes sense when you think about it, it makes sense. That's how they communicate. Um, so we feel that it's usually the educator, that's usually older, um, that is struggling with the thought of how do I do it? How do I make it engaging for the kids? It's so natural and it makes a lot of sense. Um, And we say it every day, uh, you know, enrichment programs, um, that, that are running on click to where kids come together and learn stem or arts or music, or even the athletics through, uh, through the screen. They don't even consider it screen time. They consider it as social time as, uh, growth, diamonds, fun time. Um, and I think it is. So I believe that, you know, if we look into the future, 10 years, 15 years in the future, the generation that are still young, they're still kids today will become, you know, adult learners. They, if it was, if it's still hard to convince adults today to take a course online for that generation, it will be very hard to convince them to go out of their home for, to take a course. It's a big dramatic change. That's that's what I see. I see.
Andrew Barry:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to elaborate on this because I think this is, this is super interesting. It's not, again, we're not talking about like the interface with technology, like. That's like, that's the, the obvious bias. I mean, it's still an important part because like I see my 18 month old looking at an iPad, the iPad is like, you know, my, my parents are in South Africa, so he's right now. Cause the COVID only knows them through that, but he's like, he knows them through that. Like it's incredible to watch. He has certain things that he does only when he sees them on there and he knows like how to work it, like as well, which is just innately, like obviously from observing Assabet. But so there's that like, that's like ingrained that's table stakes now, like being able to interface with technology. I think the real, like the next level of it is being able to leverage it, you know, to get the most out of it. And that's like being present in it. It's just like a whole nother thing. Like you were saying, that's on it's like they, they know that they can, kids can get on the screen and can like have fun and interact with people and they see that's their friend and. I dunno, like for us, I think it still feels somewhat, um, different, right? Like there seems like there's a bit more of a barrier, right? I think that barrier is like pretty much not there for kids. Um,
Jackie Guzda:so listen, everybody out in our community, I'm so happy that you're here. Uh, jump in, put in the chat where you're calling from and what's your business about I'm really interested in and I would love to bounce your ideas off of Andrew. So let me bounce. One of my all ideas off of Andrew, how do I keep my material? How do I keep my content from not being engaging with my, and I have students, uh, with my audience, how do I do that? How do I know that it's really lively and working and doesn't get stale semester to semester?
Andrew Barry:Yeah. I mean, I feel like you, how do you know, like, like when do you first get. With your students that that's not, it's not working well,
Jackie Guzda:as Don said, what I have tried to do is to engage my students with each other in cohort groups. Uh, even if they're taking it online because they have two jobs and are just trying to get through this course, I find out that they're not doing the work just like in a live setting. They're letting the other student do most of the work or they don't make their deadlines.
Andrew Barry:So they tell you, but they, they, you get, you'd get that information from them. Right. Ultimately. Yeah. So I, and that's, I think that's the key, that's the answer, um, is to involve your students, whoever they might be as much as possible. in The development of your material. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, I think that one of the big, interesting things I'm, I'm interested in and excited about for the future of learning is learning programs or courses or syllabus or whatever you want to call it that are never really finished. That I never complete that I never finite, that I don't know, beginnings or ends. They are completely responsive and adaptable and, uh, yeah. Evolve with the needs of the learners. So, um, I'll give you like a more concrete example here. I'm I have a program that I've just launched recently called course of action. So it's a 12 month Yell on community that you can join to learn how to create an online course and set it. And it is. First of all I pre I sort of pre-sold it. So there was nothing in there right. When people joined and I'm certainly adding material insert, but instead of me sitting down and saying, okay, well, these are going to be the 12 modules that I'm going to cover and it's going to be in this order and blah, blah, blah, and then having to wait to get feedback. Uh, you know, so those feedback loops become very, very wide and then having to go back and maintain the material updated, you know, to, to your point that what I'm actually doing is I'm building it as they need as the need arises. So it right on the onboarding, there's a question in there. What is, what is it you find most challenging about, uh, building an online. course What's it building and selling an online course and all those responses I've got in a sort of dashboard as they coming in and I'm going through it and I'm making sure I'm basically getting my ideas for what to do next in the course as, as a content piece from there and making sure that it's addressing those points. So I know at least one person often, and you know, most of the time you can safely assume it's more than one person has that concern. And we'll have that piece of content really hit home for them. Really answer that question for them. And I think. You know, as long as you have like a rough idea of what you want to cover, I think that's a very safe approach to go about it because everything you do is going to really be tight to the feedback loops super tight, right? You get it like very, very close to what the learners need. Um, and just then thinking about how do you keep doing that? How do you keep getting feedback from them that this is, this is really hitting the mark of what they're looking for. Wow. I
Dotan Tamir:love the, I love the, the concept that you're building the course as you go can, can, like, that's incredible. And can that, do you think that conduct work for others? I mean, for anybody who's building a course that methodology of building it as
Andrew Barry:you go. So I think that's interesting question. Um, like we can apply it to bigger organizations. I would say it's probably, probably not wise to go in to like a full, like, I just I'm thinking of like, say Pinterest, the company that size that we work with, if they went in and said like, okay, well, cause I think, cause the issue would be that the outstay called it is so talented that professional would not get like, that wouldn't get signed off at the beginning of the year. Like there would be no budget allocated to that. Right. So you have to have like a rough idea, I think at that point of what you want to cover or what, um, I mean, if you do like a good needs analysis, you know, like what issues you want to address, but I think then building in enough flexibility to be able to change it on the fly. And that's the beauty honestly, of the flywheel model is that. That content can be pulled together pretty last minute. So you could do a six week program and realize from that program, you could identify three major issues that you sending me to address and within, you know, giving it enough time for, let us to kind of take a break and do you know, go about their normal work you could within a month have a whole new six week program specifically there to address those needs. Um, I think that's interesting point. I haven't actually thought about this that much, but I think that that does work. But I think, like I said, you've got to go in with some idea of your approach for the year or for the quarter or whatever that is. Um, and then have flexibility to be able to change it on the. I
Dotan Tamir:guess to make that work, you need a good way of communicating with your audience in a way that you know, that they really feel comfortable giving you that feedback as you go. And it's, you know, it's a lot about, um, how this communication is working because yeah, you need, you need them to be engaged in that part as well. Not just in the being part of the course, but also helping you build the course for them. Um, but yeah, I like the, I like the concept it's really
Andrew Barry:innovative. Yeah. And, and, and, and th that's also a good point because you, by bringing people together live all the time, you can, you can actually get that feedback a lot quicker. Right. So I think it's just, that's just being intentional in the design to make sure that you're also listening out to what challenges people are having in the current setting, whatever the topic you're being that you're discussing, um, to start to also figure out what. Where else they might have challenges. And then also just be very intentional about asking at the end, you know, what, what else is on your mind? What else would you like to learn about? Um, yeah, I, I think that's sort of a bit of data gathering that happens in that presence as well, which could be quite useful. You
Jackie Guzda:know, you just solved the problem for me. I was given a set syllabus. I was given a class that was not ready to succeed with a syllabus like that. They didn't have the skills coming in. So instead of fighting back and forth all semester me up here as the instructor, imparting that information into them, something like that interactive communication could certainly solve. Going back and forth. What do you need? Well, let's get that before we go on to learning this.
Andrew Barry:Yeah. I mean, I, I see that as a mistake, a lot of course, creators make, in fact, I've made myself as well in putting courses together. Um, and I see it also, I've seen it a lot in companies like anybody who's, who's gone through corporate training will know what I'm talking about here. And that's that as the educator, the teacher, instead of date, we often assume we know what learners need to learn. Um, as versus first finding out what they're interested in and then working backwards from there. Right. That that's a, that's a harder thing to do. It's, you know, cause you do have to have that two-way dialogue, but it's almost like, I think I just more and more convinced that if you don't do that, you are wasting an incredible amount of resources on something that just could completely miss the mark.
Jackie Guzda:Hmm, brilliant. You know, we have a shout out here from Alaina in Israel and she says her business offers seamless math, learning through gaming, which I need to take. Great talk, thank you for your insights. Thank you, Elena. I'd love to hear about that. And if you have any comments that Andrew can help you with or any questions that Andrew can help you with, please put it in the chat. This is your golden opportunity. And as you saw, I just took mine. So Andrew, you have.
Andrew Barry:Yeah, it looks like a Lena actually has a question a little bit further along, down the chest. Wonderful.
Jackie Guzda:Okay. So I was curious, do you perceive the online learning as a replacement to the face-to-face. Complimentary format. How can it take the conventional teachers into the next generation of education?
Andrew Barry:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such an important point cause it's definitely not a replacement. I don't think there ever will be a full replacement for face-to-face and, but face-to-face, by the way, I don't necessarily mean it has to be live and in person, this is face-to-face right to, to some of the earlier conversation we've had. So, but getting people together in a synchronized way, in a synchronous way, um, is, is definitely key. And I do see it as complimentary or sort of a hybrid approach. In fact, that whole flywheel sprint approach is very much a hybrid between asynchronous and synchronous. Again, it's the learners go through certain curators of content in their own time. Which gives them a lens through which to frame their ideas and it gives them that, or primes them to then have discussions about it and then, then meet face to face. Um, uh, now for now at least on video and they discuss it. So they, those two work incredibly well together. Um, and I think that's, and so to, to the last part of the question of teachers into the next generation, that there are a few, there's a few great examples about the, of this, um, as a guy, that one that comes to mind in Kenya, for example, his name's Peter beachy is a science teacher, a physical, like, uh, uh, uh, physics teacher. And he, um, so he started creating like, he's just exceptionally good teacher. I first and foremost, he has an incredible way of teaching children, uh, physics. Um, and what he's been able to do there is created. Um, he now teaches across the whole of Kenya. So he's not geographically bound anymore to the, you know, the town or the village or that he's in. He can teach across the whole country and learners across that entire country have access to him in that setting. So they're getting, you know, in that case, it's synchronous, but they're getting like the teaching from him. And then what they have is these sort of, um, In-person um, like think of them, like sort of like salons, you know, like the old, like Italian Renaissance, like salon where people would get together to, to just have like a more freeform, like discussion. Um, it's sorta like that concept, but for children, like they, they then get together and they apply the stuff that he's just taught them. So then they're like, watch, maybe it's even a secret. Maybe they watch like a prerecorded video from him, uh, teaching a certain concept and then they've got all the equipment and all that stuff to then apply that together in there. So now you've got the entire nation of Ken here able to teach children, able to learn from him and then apply it with the people in their town or village. Um, and that's happening all over the world. There's another guy in India who does this and an even bigger scale is partnered with Microsoft. And I think like, cause reached most of India. Right. Which is insane. Right. Um, and it also happens to be a science teacher and yeah. So just, that's kind of, for me, when you talk about the next generation of education is. This idea of like really skilled teachers, like superstar teachers able to reach hundreds of thousands of students in a way that also doesn't they don't learn, they don't lose the ability to apply with their learning because then they have these kind of like mentor led or teaching assistant led, uh, schools within their district that can help apply these things that they're learning. Hmm.
Jackie Guzda:I want that to be the future of education. Yeah. And that blows me away because again, you just solved a lot of problems instead of, you know, you would say on higher ed level, instead of hiring, uh, thousands of a hundred thousand plus a year, professors doing their own little thing in their own little bubble, you get these super teachers and they have
Andrew Barry:no. It's a very interesting discussion and sort of a thought experiment to go through because there are implications to those, right? If you get some teachers kind of rise to the top as these superstar teachers that does reduce the opportunities for other teachers. And there's actually a whole study about this, a guy called I think it's show in Rosen. Um, and it. Not specifically about teaching, but it's called the economics of superstars. Um, and I wrote a piece sort of adapting his work to teach us called superstar teachers. But, um, in the economics of superstars, he goes through that whole thing of like, what does that mean to people, um, who don't rise to the top? And I think there are interesting offsets. Things like the teaching assistants. So this, those that might help you, the ones setting the syllabus and, and delivering the lesson, but they could be that teaching assistant role, uh, in the district or in the neighborhood. Um, and, and that can be extended. Like that can go, that can corporate homeschooling, like every level of education can now do this because you can, those people can be trained in, you know, these ideas. Um, and instead of a train, the trainer approach and could help kind of spread the word or spread the gospel of these superstar dishes.
Jackie Guzda:Elena says, thank you for your comments,
Dotan Tamir:Andrew, you say you speak about the economics and the superstar teachers. And they, it always comes back to me, um, you know, in the fear of people from competition. Um, and, and I think. The future, the question of Elena about the future of education or next generation of education, we call the show here, lifelong learners. Um, and, and, um, I feel like as education progress and as it becomes more based on superstars and more based in interactive and being more engaged and people will want to keep learn more. So if, if the, you know, learning capacity of a person in the old fat in the old world of education was, I don't know, 12 years in the future, it will be 50 years. So there's enough space for everybody because people will learn more and there's more, there are more opportunities for people, for people to meet those learners along their way, a longer lines.
Andrew Barry:Yeah, I agree. I think so. You've got more demand. Um, and I think that's a very sound rationale. And then I think on the supply side, you've got another interesting dynamic, which is that people there's no generic way to teach. Like you, you can't commoditize teaching, so you can never monopolize the supply. I teach how to create online courses, but there are other people who teach that as well. And it's everybody has their own style and their own approach. And, um, you know, I think most people would agree that the. Learning from a, teacher's quite an intimate thing. Like you've got to know, like, and trust that teacher, um, to, to sort of give them your time and your know the space and your brain to, to learn from them. Um, and so, you know, we've all had those teachers where we don't have that and you just, you move on and you find a different one. So that, that's another interesting aspect is that I think there's always a, the market is so, so big to your point that there's always a space for someone to carve out their own niche of teaching, whatever they're specifically good at, which is why I always say that everyone has an online course. And then I think everyone has an ability to teach something and, um, yeah. And, and, um, I'm going to mission to help people do that.
Jackie Guzda:Well, once you accomplish your mission, how do we go about and get those leads? You're an expert in this.
Andrew Barry:Yeah. So wait, so let me clarify, what do you mean by leads? Okay. I
Jackie Guzda:want my business to grow. I'm I've taken your course. I have designed this incredible course now, how do I turn a profit with
Zoom recording - October 7, 2021:it?
Andrew Barry:Yeah. Yeah. So if anybody thinking about it from, from that perspective, a sort of a more entrepreneurial approach, which I appreciate that question because this is, I think about all the time it's the students I have. So for me, it all starts with like you, you've got to figure out who it is that you're teaching. And that is a super specific thing, which I I encourage people to boil down to one specific person like who it like, and often that's for people just getting started. That's one of the best ways to start is find a friend or colleague or an internet friend, or even a family member that you can meaningfully help them increase their capacity in something, and then do that. So that's teaching, right? Like you're, you're teaching them how to do something. So it could be helping your, you know, your grandparents like figure out how to use zoom, right? Like something like that. But, um, you, you got to build on that, right? Like, so it's gotta be a value to more than just that one person, but you start with one person. You build out a value proposition and you do it in a way that responds to their specific challenges along the way. So now what you've done is you've created like a mini curriculum with that one person. Now you want to try and expand that. And so the next sort of step is to figure out where to find more people like that. And this is why it's so important to be so specific. So it's not just we help, um, you know, people, um, become more confident in their speaking. It's I help startup founders of early stage series. You know, pre-seed companies, uh, speak more confidently to raise money for their series. A like so super specific stuff I got because now I can find a lot. I know where those people are. Right. Um, whereas people, people everywhere, I can't, I'm not gonna be able to narrow it down to certain people that I'm looking for. So getting very specific with that audience. And then once you've identified them, there's a tribe with them. So like in that example, you know, pre seed, I don't know that's on, you probably know this better than I do, but there's like tons of communities where people that are, that are starting companies and founders of companies like yourself, um, hang out, you can go and, and interact there. You can go and share content. You can be helpful. All of those kinds of things to get noticed, right? And now you start to develop that. And by the way, as you're doing that, you're also improving your course. Cause you're getting more exposure to more questions, more challenges, et cetera. You're finding ways to refine. So it's this constant evolution. It goes back to what we were saying earlier, right? There's no, you don't go in with some predefined. These are the 12 steps you build that with your audience. Um, and so it's, so it's basically that process just repeated over and over and you get to a bigger and bigger scale. You get into sort of more tactical stuff, but you've got to start to find. You know, sort of bigger mediums that like we've talked about Twitter, LinkedIn, like those are obviously great channels to get in front of a lot more people. Do. You also got to get those people in a practically, you've got to get them to the best way to do is get them to sign up for an email. And if you send it like a weekly email to people, and now they've taken some level of optins to get to know you a bit more. And, and essentially it's just turning strangers who fit that archetype. And so people that know you like you and hopefully trust you so they can eventually buy from you.
Dotan Tamir:But how do you make them want to take your course? Like if you can give us some tips, maybe, maybe read examples. Um, and because at the end of the day, it's a product, it's a service and people buy what they want to buy, what they need. Um, so how, how do you go about this with.
Andrew Barry:Yeah. So for me, it all sort of stems from the transformation that you can promise that's your in business terms, that's your value proposition, right? So we talked about like, get into first getting very specific of who your ideal customer or ideal student is. Uh, now you've got a frame, a value proposition for them and I call it your transformation statement. So it w this is again what we talked about earlier, by the end of this course program, whatever you will be able to. So w what is the action you'll be able to take? And the key thing with this, and this is true for a product or a business as well, is that it must be framed in terms of the sort of classic, um, Kate Christensen jobs to be done framework like it. What does, what does it enable them to do? So, in my case, I teach you about how to create online. That in and of itself is not a very sexy proposition. Like, okay, well, cool. Like creating an online course. Some people will get the value of that, but not everyone will. So what is it, what I'm actually doing is I'm helping people scale their impact or, you know, to reach more people, uh, change more lives, um, create a sustainable income, uh, get freedom from their job, you know, by the vehicle for that is an online course in, in my, in my, realm. But for other people it's different things, right. But it's like, what is the, what does that allow them to do? So that's the key. So when you're thinking of an online course, you've gotta be thinking about what is your course, your teaching, your methodology and frameworks allow them to do, and it's gotta be something appealing. It's gotta be, you know, The sorta, like, it's gotta be a marketing thing, like, um, you know, like status, uh, wealth, uh, you know, happiness, whatever, like some kind of like, uh, in, in goal there, and the key part of the whole, all of this, those you've got to really be able to guarantee that that's the other thing. So you've got to then work backwards from there and say, well, how can I guarantee that outcome for people? Right? Cause ultimately like you went to last very long, if you make this big promise and deliver on it.
Dotan Tamir:Hmm. I think this is, um, you know, this is so important that the answer today. The learner, the per the person that really wants the course will also get the most out of it, obviously. And then, you know, we'll value you better and we'll reference, give great references. So as much as you can make them want to take it and be motivated to take the course, uh, you probably get gonna get better results. And, and I'm always curious, how can we, how can this, um, statement be applied on, um, you know, on places that are mandatory, right? Not all courses are taken by, uh we'll. If we go to K to 12, you know, kids go to school, they have to take the course or other places that they have to take to course. I'm not sure about the process, but I'm pretty sure that at the end of the day, if, uh, if that organization can find a way to create this motivation at the learners, even though they have to take it, but make them feel like they want to make, they make the choice, maybe give them a choice of what to take, which of course, um, I always feel like, you know, in, in my experience I always gave in given learners, in my organizations place of choice, they never had to choose to go through one specific class. I feel like it, it makes the whole experience, um, a much more successful. Um, and, um, Elena is here and specifically I know about one big project that she's working on. So I think this is something that worth thinking about. How can you, even when you run the program at school, Um, and you really want the kids to take the, to, to, to get that knowledge because it's so important that they will have this knowledge when they finish school or whatever. If the question, first question is, how do you make them want to learn? Um, just putting it out there.
Andrew Barry:All right. Now, I think you, I think you've alluded to a lot of the onset as well. It's so much of it comes down to, to intrinsic motivation, right? You can say, this is what this course is going to like to do, or this is why you should take this path. But unless they like truly believe that it connected with something. They want, then you're not, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle the whole time. So first of all, I love your idea of giving two to like multiple options. I think that's, um, that's really important, even if, sometimes it's sort of the illusion of choice, but the fact that there's some choice in, I think is important. Um, and then, yeah, so this goes back to one of those three P's personal meaning. So I think if in a school setting, if you can show kids examples of what you can do by learning, by taking this path or this path and give it, you know, and then get them to think about like, what would that make me, you know, what would I want to do with that? Like maybe it's, um, I don't know, like, I haven't thought about school education in a very long time, but yeah. Like I, you know, whatever, like the motivating factor is off for a kid of whatever age would be talking about yet that they can start to connect some of the outcomes that other kids have had with the program to outcomes that they'd like to have. Right. And be like, oh yeah. You know, make it like super practical for them. And then, then it feels, then it is a Trinity motivate. Now they working towards something that they want for themselves at the end of it. And your course is just the vehicle that gets them there. Hmm.
Jackie Guzda:So Andrew, I'm somebody like Alina out in our audience and I've got my project and I'm going to create that avatar in my mind, or, you know, my neighbor, somebody who needs this kind of course. Um, and I'm going to follow your. Your road of know, like, and trust. Now, do I start small on a micro level, family and friends, uh, reach out into the neighborhood like that? Or do I use the magic of the internet and blast it to the entire world? What's the way to go?
Andrew Barry:Yeah, definitely the former cause trust me from experience that you will be incredibly frustrating to start with the latter. Um, I did that, uh, I don't know, 3, 4, 5 years ago when I first got into the online course world and I thought, eh, that's all he needs to do. Right? There's so many people on LinkedIn, Twitter. Start talking about it and people will come, but it doesn't really work like that. Um, so yes, uh, your, the first suggestion, people who already know you right. Start there. Um, I love we dots on and, and, um, and Josh and, and we've talked a lot for offline as well. And I think there's a lot of interesting stuff that clicked is working on that leverages existing networks. Um, of these, um, enrichment programs, right? So there's, there's already a neighborhood community that's built up around these schools, their kids and their parents that know about these schools. Now they have friends and relatives in other countries and other states in other parts of the world, right. You haven't heard. And obviously, you know, they just can't get to that school. But now if those schools think about coming online, those people cannot benefit from them. And then what's the best marketing you could possibly have as a school like that in anything really is, is word of mouth, right. As someone who's gone through it, who's had that transformation telling others about it. Um, and so that's why I focus most of my. So the energy of the teaching is, is getting people to really deliver those transformations. Once you've got that, then you go, like you said, now what's the tactics on that? Do you go and get those people that already know you? And you say, Hey, I'm doing this thing. I'm trying to expand the school. We're gonna go online. Um, and so they, they start to tell others and you, then you can then do things like create spaces like this. Like we're having this live call. You know, you, you host things like that and you get them to invite their friends and stuff. And so you can start to sort of spread the word that gets people to know you. Then the, the live Q part is bringing your personality into things. So, you know, it goes back to also what we were saying earlier about the supply side of it not being commoditized, right? It's very like each teacher is different. Each person teaching something and their niche is going to have a different way of doing it. So that's, you know, I, and I was actually, I had to be quite deliberate about this at the beginning, but just bringing in like your own personality. Yeah. You, you could see for those watching online, like these two African prints behind me is from South Africa. So like, that's a big part of my personality. That's in all the music I played in, in the online course, I ran in the beginning of this year, it was like African theme. And so like little things like that that gets people to like, know a part of your personality that gives them more of a chance of IQ. And some won't like that. And that's fine. Like the sooner, you know, that the better as well. Right. Because then they're just, they're never going to buy from you. Um, and then the trust part is just being reliable, just constantly delivering good, good content, uh, consistently, um, and you know, being helpful. Um, pretty much I recommend people give away 99% of everything for free. Um, that's, that's what gets people to trust you because they will always come back to once they know you like you and trust you, they will always come back and pay for the 1% because the 1% is what's going to get them to transplant.
Dotan Tamir:So Andrew, you are, you're helping. I mean, with your programs now you're helping people build a business based on their, uh, superstar teacher power or hidden power. Um, and how it can, can that become a real business? Can that become something that people can really live out of it grow, maybe start building it with more people involved and be hiring more people to work for them and teach for them. Can, can that be a real business?
Andrew Barry:Yeah, I'm a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Um, I, I feel examples. I mean, I, I ran a program at the beginning of this year. Worked with another company to do that. So this wasn't all my doing and all the w w but basically we got 150 people to sign up. They were each paying between two and$3,000. So there was a$350,000 launch. Okay. Um, that, like I had direct experience to that. I didn't keep all that money. Um, um, but the, the experience was there. Like, I know it's possible. I know it can be done. The key thing. There was this, the company I came with, the contents and the audience, and they came with the reach. So they were able to amplify. Uh, that message to more people that, that could then identify with the audience I was bringing in. So I always recommend to people is as you thinking about this, first of all, don't think about it like that. You'll never get that on your own when you're starting up, but if you partner with the right people that have bigger audiences, you can absolutely do that. Um, so that's one small example. I know of a guy I worked with who has a big audience himself, so he never had to partner with people, but he makes over a million pounds a year from teaching. Um, in fact, I know a bunch of people who make over a million dollars a year from teaching. So it's, it is definitely doable. These are just the beginning. So in general, we were at the very beginning of this, like people, uh, this is like the gold rush in California. Like it's just the beginning, right? People are just coming in there, the early Millie millionaires being mentored right now. Uh, there's going to be a lot to your point earlier, a lot more demand. That's going to build up. There's going to be a much bigger buckets, a lot more to go around. Um, so, so yes, you know, I can't promise everyone's going to be a millionaire, but I think there's going to be a lot of sustainable businesses built around specific knowledge and delivered in a way that delivers transformations for people. Ooh,
Jackie Guzda:this, this sounds exciting. This sounds like something that I, and the people who are listening to you now want to jump onto, but I got to ask you, we're talking about growth of a company. Did you ever trip and fall along the.
Andrew Barry:Alright. Yeah, countless times. And it's, it is a long, a long thing. That's why my program is a year because you can't teach this stuff in eight weeks. Like, like I did in that program, I mentioned, um, which was very successful, but it was just, it was so intense. It was a really intense sprint for people you need time to, to put good habits and routines into place. Um, and to, to get to know your audience, like, you know, Dota and you'll know from firsthand experience, I'm sure like finding that product market fit or in my world core student fit takes time. Like, and there's no other way around it. It's just applying time to it and having as many interactions as you can until you find that that fit. Um, and so, so yeah, so it, it definitely takes time. I've, I've tripped up and stumbled a bunch. I, I mentioned earlier, like, you know, getting started and sort of starting with many years ago with that spray and pray approach, you know, definitely. Um, start small, start with one person build from there. Um, and I wasted a lot of money on tactics and hacks and growth tricks and, uh, you know, ad spending on ads. Like all of those things, some of them have their place, but you need to, you need to first get the basics, right? You need to be able to deliver a consistent transformation to people. Uh, you need to have you to know what you're about. Like, what are you, who are you as a teacher? Um, what's your teacher identity? You know that you've got to have those sorts of things in place first. And so my program teaches people how to create a workshop. Like I think you should start like that once you've got one person scale it up. And if you get a workshop together and you have 10, 15 people show up, like that is a success, you now have something to work on that. And then the hard work starts of building the business side of it, which you do with your audience and all this sort of stuff we've been talking about. Um, yeah, those are some of the lessons that it sounds
Dotan Tamir:like a long journey. Um, but in our digital world and everything that is online, that journey actually shrinks to become much faster and quicker as time goes. Um, just before, uh, Jackie's going to close this because we out of time, Andrew, if you can tell the audience, um, if anybody wants to connect with you or learn more about one of the programs for the shape, where should they go?
Andrew Barry:Yeah, thanks. It's on. So the best place to connect with me and I love talking to people on Twitter. Um, so, um, at, as a Russo, be a Zed AR UTO, um, you can, you can get in touch with me there. Um, and if you're interested in the course, are we talking about as well, but you can go to course of action. Dot IO. Um, and you'll find out more details about it there, if you want to be part of one of those very early days, if you want to be part of one of those people that are helping to shape it. Um, yeah. That's, that's it. Awesome. Thank you guys. Great. Yeah, that's the way. And thank you both for having me here and for the excellent questions. I, I could talk about this stuff all day. Um,
Jackie Guzda:perhaps we will in the future. So thanks so much, Andrew. You're inspiring, and I really appreciate that. And thank you so much, Joe, Tom, your insight is amazing also. So everyone out there, we will see you next week. Next week we will be live at 1130 as opposed to 11:00 AM today. So I want to thank everyone out there. Come back, bring your questions, bring your comments. And we hope we can develop as a community of lifelong learners.
Andrew Barry:Thank you. Thank you, Jackie. Thanks everyone. Thanks. Thank you.