9 | Rebuilding the "Learning Culture" of America w/ Kevin P. Chavous

As parents and educators, it often feels as if our educational system is broken, but Kevin has found a few ways to fix it!

That's why we're bringing Kevin Chavous, an Attorney, Author, Education Reform Activist, Podcast Host, and President of Stride, Inc., a company with a mission to help students reach their full potential through inspired teaching and personalized learning.

If you've been frustrated by the current state of learning, join Kevin to discuss:
- The decline of "Learning Culture" in America
- How we are in the "4th Industrial Revolution" and what it means to education
- The 5 ways education can keep pace with the jobs of the future
 
If you are stymied by the past of our educational system but have hopes and - perhaps - your own plans for its future, join Kevin in an interactive conversation!

Transcript

Jackie Guzda: 0:10

Welcome to lifelong educators, a community of teachers, uh, parents of anyone interested in the future of education. It's new innovations in how we can keep doing better and better and better. I'm Jackie Costa and I am joined today by my cohost, just Chernikoff senior advisor to click a cohort-based online learning enrichment platform. Good morning, Josh. How are you? Good. Good. Thank you. How are you?

Kevin Chavous: 0:39

Great.

Jackie Guzda: 0:40

I'm terrific. And also our very esteemed guests today, Kevin Chavez, an attorney, author education reform activist podcast, hosts of, I want to know, and president of stride, Inc, a company with a mission to help students reach their potential through inspired teaching and personalized learning. So welcome to you.

Kevin Chavous: 1:04

Well, thank you so much, Jackie, and it's good to be with you and Josh, a true Washingtonian for way back. It's also good to be a few of my friends. Thank you.

Jackie Guzda: 1:13

It is an honor to share the stage with you. And I went to school in 82 and spend time. So

Kevin Chavous: 1:23

there you go. Right. All roads lead through. We were probably

Jackie Guzda: 1:29

there, Jackie, when Kevin was doing his good work in the city. Oh

Kevin Chavous: 1:33

yeah. So I used to be somebody Jackie. That's what he's trying to say. Oh no.

Jackie Guzda: 1:40

I was honored, honored when I saw your, because you've done such terrific work, Kevin and, and you know, that's what I'm going to talk about today. Um, as you know, I'm a college professor and I'm frustrated with the state of higher ed. And as I was kind of pushing a student along the other to do better, that student looked at me, smiled and said, Hey, these get degrees. So could you explain to us please why the current atmosphere in higher ed is satisfied with something like that?

Kevin Chavous: 2:26

Well, look, I think that, uh, we're at an inflection point, uh, in this country as it relates to how we interact with each other, uh, how we engage in and, and career selection, uh, how we parent, how we educate, uh, our children. Uh, and I think the pandemic helped drive that, but also this sort of fusion of. Technologies, the physical, the digital and biological spheres, all coming together, the future that, uh, The future of human existence is going to be totally different. And I think that we're breaking out of their systematize view of life. I think your conversation with that, that young person reflects an old way of thinking that you look at education and, and in a stilted way. Elementary school Middle school, junior high school, high school, college graduate school. And it's all finite, but I think education in the future learning of the future is not finite. It's lifelong learning is, is, is continuing to stoke that curiosity. So you're not really focused on grades or degrees. You're first focused on output and your own intake in terms of learning potential. So, uh, we're really at a point where things are changing. And I think higher ed is going to have to shake things up because this idea of, you know, some schools are more elite than others and charging all this money. That's an outdated approach. Uh, by the way, you know, a, a computer programmer who takes a three to six month boots. To learn how to be a computer programmer can make more than someone who has a computer science degree and goes to four year college. So the whole world is changing while those of us who are stuck in that, in the old approach, uh, we're going to continue to be challenged. I think the last thing I'll say on this one is we've got to get to the point where we're not asking our students to go to school and go to college and view it as a chore. But again, part of that, that lifelong journey and the way we do that is by changing our approach to educational delivery, the old stand and lecture and deliver approach where, you know, I am the all-knowing constant. Provider as a teacher, I'm lecturing to you, take a down. I might take down what I say, memorize it, regurgitate it back, and then forget it in a month. Those days are gone. You know, the problem solving the collaboration. Kids have content. Now, now we've got to have teachers is died so they can help kids manage how to use that content as a way to sort of continue to stoke their interest in the learning experience. So I think that kids, so many kids are, have been programmed to think that education is an end goal. And fundamentally where we're headed is it's it's lifelong.

Jackie Guzda: 5:43

So you're the author of a book called building a learning culture in America. And in it, you say that there's a long history of the decline of our learning calls. Can you tell us how far it goes back and how this mess that we have now came to be?

Kevin Chavous: 6:03

Well, part of it's Bindi, as I said, the institutionalization of learning, keep in mind that our, our structured school system, the neighbors who, uh, dividing kids up by age and grade, um, was all built on the industrialized model that we use. In factories Where you put a widget, a box, but people in assembly line give them a break. The nine to three schedule in school was based on agriculture models so that kids had to end it at three. So kids could go work in the field before it got dark. Um, everything was structured with the system in mind and I'm not criticizing the system. This is the way it was during the industrial revolution. Not this last set, you've been censored before that. Uh, and so much so that people don't even know here's a factor at 40 that, you know why we took biology in the 10th, 10th grade. And, and, and, you know, uh, Chemistry in the 11th and physics in 12th, it goes alphabetical BCP. That's why they, there was no rhyme or reason other than they looked in alphabetize the offerings. Um, everyone's taken algebra in the 9th grade and your grandparents, didn't your great grandparents, did the whole neighborhood too And so the whole, there's this combination of the industrialized approach. And there's just common that, that also relates to the nostalgia and sentimentality. Of our schooling experience, going to the prom, getting your locker in junior high, you know, the football games, basketball games, and that convergence is made up of those sort of realities. It's made as hard for us to break out of it, but break out of it. We must, there's nothing wrong with a kid in seventh grade taking algebra, but then that changes the system and, oh no, you got to pull them out of the class and have them do something special. But this new learning culture, the future, I think, should be built around you, give kids what they need and that way they get what they want. And. That's we have to build learning up. As I said, not a finite goal, but build a national obsession around learning, make everything we do in terms of our learning experience and the learning journey positively infectious, uh, You know, build a national obsession around learning like we did years ago, starting with the Kennedy space thrust or, you know, the women's soccer team winning the Olympics. I mean, make, make learning something more than just as I say, a load or a chore to BR or burden to carry, to get past a certain degree. Stage. Um, and then I think we need to have, uh, take pride in learning like, uh, you know, made in America. Um, and you know, and, and lift up those schools that are doing unique, things that most people never know about or hear about, give them greater attention. Uh, one of the things I talked about in the book was, um, this idea of, uh, you know, like American idol. I think we should do that. Like America's best teacher, you know, America's best school and have people celebrate what they're doing. Have a celebrity panel look at, hear about what what's going on in some of these schools. Uh, we need to celebrate the learning journey and make it more engaging for today's kids. I also think, and I know this well, Josh knows this because my political background, unfortunately, the politicalization of education has contributed to our, our overall decline. There's no Republican democratic way to teach a kid how to read, write, count, or compete. And I think that when you have in state houses and I've spoken to tons of governors and legislators, and I was on Obama's education policy committee, we, he ran the first time. I know Jeff Bush, I've talked to all these folks and always say, say the same messages that, you know, we should not have these, these party caucuses. You know, waxing in, on education policy initiatives in a combative way. I mean, I think education and learning is the one area where we should come together and, and, and have one simple yard stick, which I use, you know, I got beat up for some, but I think I'm very proud of my work. The one yard stick, every leader should use who's involved in education of policymaking. Is will this help a child learn or a group of children learn? If the answer is yes, we should push for it. If the answer is no, we should not. So it's irrespective of what the caucus says or respect of the horse trading that happens in political, uh, in the political dynamics, state by state, will this help a child learn? And I think that I have seen people do that on both sides of the aisle and kids benefit, and I've seen some states get drought. And overwhelmed by the politics of the day, which I think is anathema to the best interest of children.

Jackie Guzda: 11:19

Kevin, we, uh, you mentioned the DC stuff, you know, I grew up watching you do your work. So thank you for that in DC. And I think we've got people in DC watching. Can you talk about how we got you here? You know, from the politics to obviously be super passionate about education? I'm not saying it wasn't part of your politics, but I think what we saw you as an award seven, and now here you are.

Kevin Chavous: 11:49

Well, Josh, thank you. You know, I had an interesting journey. Uh, I was born in a household. I just talked about it in my book where there was a learning culture. You know, my father used to have us read. If I asked my father question, he gave me a book to read, and then we talked about it. And so one of the. Proud moments I remember was when I got my library card, because I can go get your books and talk about with my father. I didn't know that he was stoking my curiosity, a young age when I came to Howard law school and started working in ward seven in the Southeast Northeast DC. That's when I realized as naive as it sounds that not everybody had that experience and it bothered me. How so many here, some of the drug boys I knew on the corner during the crack epidemic, I spend time with them. They were hustling drugs when they was smart as a weapon. I said, my goodness, this guy, I mean, the way they're doing in the drug game site buying and selling mergers and acquisitions and corporate America, these guys, they memorize this stuff. They know it, but you know, through no fault of their own, they didn't have that opportunity. So when I joined the council, I didn't enjoy thinking about education. I really joined thinking, you know, war seven, one, our fair share. Y'all got to Starbucks in Georgetown. We want to Starbucks, you know, you get a new library and just the way we want, when we're the one

Jackie Guzda: 13:12

Starbucks and Georgetown, I know

Kevin Chavous: 13:14

you're saying, you know what I mean? But, uh, but, but Josh, you know, what really changed? And I, I share this with people. I was a basketball player as All-American basketball player in college. So I still had the celebrity basketball games. You play against the police. I remind the people, the police, we never lost to the police. Okay. Firefox gave us a little run, but we beat the police, paid us. We played the, all these celebrities and you know, the radio DJs, Donnie Simpson, all of these folks was set up teams. We always, I had a team that did well, and I got a call from, uh, the old Lorton prison. And the inmates there said, you played everybody. Councilman, why don't you come play us? So I went in there and we played these in. And we spent time with them and I realized, I said, wow, these guys, some of these guys are bright, you know, and I asked the ward and I said, what kind of educational programs do you have for these young man? I was impressed with some of them. And some of them didn't have violent crimes. They got caught up in the drug stuff, whatever. And he said, Councilman, that'd be a waste of taxpayer's money. You know, uh, 85% of them, high school, dropouts, you know, and most of them can't raise. So there's no need and trying to educate them. And Josh, let me tell you that changed my life. I, I said most of them came from wards seven and eight, so I would go back and visit all the schools and then I'd have teachers say, well, we're doing the best we can. And that, that, that bothered me knowing my own experience as a child, you know, and that the fact that unwittingly. Maybe realize that a lot of our leadership was writing off a segment of the population before they even had a chance to flourish and an opportunity to grow. So that's when I got passionate by education, I became a student at what works. I began as a student of how you educate children who grew up in trauma and poverty and crime. Uh, I was like a sponge. Uh, I supported charter schools, but I also supported DC public schools, gave teachers more than ever had DC public schools, more money than they ever had. We hadn't built a school building in 20 years. I built 10 to 15 of them are laid the foundation for them. So to me, it really launched me into this work. And when I left office, I just started writing books and giving speeches and advice and governors and mayors. And I started to, uh, Jeb Bush appointed me to this task force on virtual education. I met the folks at Dan K-12. Advice and leadership there joined the board and then came in and was running the core business where we have we're in over 37 states and eight to 10,000 teachers. And, you know, a couple million kids are in our ecosystem of schools. We help around the country.

Jackie Guzda: 16:04

I think that's our cue, Jackie. I think that's our cue to talk online education. What's something Kevin has amazing experience with. So, um, Kevin, you. Have a company called K through 12, Inc. Which is the nation's largest distributor of online education materials. Yes,

Kevin Chavous: 16:28

yes we do. And, um, it's, K-12 we, we are our parent company. Aim is Stripe because not only we're doing K through 12 virtual education, we all sort of doing adult education and career pathways. Um, and what I tell people, I mean, this has been at topsy turvy year and a half because of the pandemic and the thing about virtual education, online learning. There's a difference between emergency remote learning, administered by people who don't know what they're doing and online learning administered by people who. do Uh, there are school districts who know what they're doing and do it well, but the vast majority of our school districts have not invested because of budget or whatever, the energy in it. And they were caught unaware during the pandemic. Uh, and the other thing about online learning, it's not for everybody, but it is available or should be available for anybody before the pandemic. Most of the kids we got were kids who had some social economic or academic challenge, uh, kids who couldn't thrive in a brick and mortar environment. A lot of special needs kids, autistic kids, nearly half of the kids, parents who called us in our enrollment line around the country, where had kids who were bullied. We also got talented and gifted kids, kids who, you know, like I said, they should have been taken algebra in 5th grade kids who could work at their own pace. So we have that cross section and we have athletes and kids who are in the Disney channel, who can't be in a structured classroom. Uh, one young woman who women who graduated from our Colorado school won the bronze medal and snowboarding in the winter Olympics. Couple of years ago, she was training all the time. Uh, we've had gymnast, um, a couple of well-known ones. So we've it, the online learning before the pandemic was really sort of this, uh, hodgepodge of kids who were challenged, kids who were gifted, kids had worked or, uh, athletic schedules and everything changed during the pandemic. Um, yeah,

Jackie Guzda: 18:36

you actually, you actually had a student that you probably didn't know. His name was Victor. He was one of my students tutoring company. And he went to BCC, which is a school in Bethesda and he was bullied and he's still a good dear friend of mine. And his father made a decision, you know, many years ago to use K-12 and Victor and I, when I was starting my tutoring company, we worked very closely and. I can say it saved his life, but now he is saving lives. He's actually a paramedic in the DC area. And so, you know, Victor was a product of K-12 and, and he

Kevin Chavous: 19:14

was one of those kids. I'm so proud of that story, I think. And this is not about K12 me or, or even you, we've got to meet kids where they are. I mean, that should be the ultimate goal of, of, of, uh, education. And so the traditional school box approach, as I said, I know it doesn't fit every kid and we lose too many kids. I'm just so proud and excited here about Victor success. Uh, and you know, we, the pandemic changed things. I've spoken with, um, all those leaders on the hill that you see on TV. And I spoke to the Biden administration education. Uh, transition team. And I told them that what we should do, we should offer more options for families and today's kid because kids respond to a whole array of learning modalities and we should mastery the implementation of those modalities to the benefit of his and less this not more, more is more so for school districts to say, we don't want to offer virtual. What I say is let's incentivize them. Uh, let's say, if you train X number or X, percentage of your teachers will give you more dollars and teachers, if they have additional micro-credentials and virtue education teaching, and they go through a program and we train a lot of teachers in school districts, a thousand school districts, we trained of the 13,000 in America. Uh, we'll give you more money. Uh, Incentivize school districts to have curriculum that can adapt textbooks to the digital format. Another simple thing. So you don't have to do PDFs and parents are trying to figure out what the next lesson plan is. Listen, instead of by our school districts to have a secure platform. So you don't have hackers hacking into, uh, school districts, uh, uh, programs. So I think that we almost can, as, uh, as opposed to the federal government and department of education engaged in punitive approaches, like we're not going to give you money because y'all, haven't done this or kids haven't measured it up in terms of accountability, standards or metrics. Why don't we just incentivize them to do things that ultimately will help kids. You can do it for artificial intelligence, virtual reality, the game of vocation of education, all this stuff is happening. And in the ad tech world and enterprise and schools and school districts are doing it, I think we can do more of it. And so, uh, I'm glad to hear about Victor story. There are, there are thousands of stories out there like that. I want to make sure that we grow those numbers even more.

Jackie Guzda: 22:05

We are, uh, I'm going to do a shameless plug here for click to, you know, uh, which is paying some of my bills. And I love working with the CEO, Tom, but we are, I mean, we, we are meeting some of these kids who want to study karate or who want to do cooking, you know, uh, might not be able to get out of their house. Maybe they feel bullied. They don't want to go out of the house. We're meeting them here in this, in this way. We've got fantastic instructors. One of the things we talk about. Um, his hybrid is here to stay. And can you talk about how it's okay. It sounds like you're saying it's okay to have in person. It's just also explore the other

Kevin Chavous: 22:43

options as well. I'm a big believer in hybrid learning. I think we do primarily, fully online, but I think the answer is hybrid Where for hybrid blended you know, uh, from your listeners know, but you know where you spend, you know, a couple of days a week in a classroom a couple days a week, Uh, hybrid and then your hybrid experience, you can explore a number of things, dual certification programs, um, you know, uh, dual immersion classes. Um, and you get that reinforcement in the socialization that there's, some people are concerned about when you are in a classroom setting, but there are teachers out there and there's training out there, uh, where teachers are, can be become adept at moving from both the virtual world and the classroom room. By the way, we work with Southern New Hampshire university, uh, to create the first there's kind masters in virtual education teaching. And they looked at hundreds of hours of tapes of our teachers. We have the efficacy, academic efficacy behind it. And, and part of our focus is that we want to train a whole cadre of young teachers. We've got some strategic partnerships with some we're bringing out some, some HBC Youth and teachers. And we've got a cohort of a couple hundred teachers this last year that are in that master's program. We want to build an army of innovative teachers that can, you know, each one, teach one and then spread it out so that we demystified Josh and Jackie, we need to demystify what's new. Uh, because I think that the system is so used to, you know, um, Grace Hopper that the first legendary and female scientists said the most dangerous phrase in the human language is we've always done it that way. Because she faced so much being a woman interested in space back in the 60s So, you know, we've got to explode that idea that, well, we've always done it that way. And I'm like, look, I'm an old guy. And I get excited about the new, I mean, I think that that's that's, that really is what makes it stimulating. And by the way, these kids love it. You know, last thing I'll say on this, and I think I missed this to Jackie. I'm amazed by the e-sports phenomenon. I mean, there is an over it's over a billion dollar industry. They have more viewers than major league baseball, NFL, NBA hockey combined. And in our schools, we have these e-sports league and you can get, you know, 10,000 kids in an arena and then watching six other kids play an e-sports game now. You know, initially I'm like, what the heck is this all about? But the thing is, if we're going to like your friend, Victor, if we're going to meet kids where they are, we share a second need to understand what that phenomenon is all about and give them opportunities. If that can lead to focus, concentration, uh, problem solving critical and analytical thinking, which is a short supply in far too many learning environments and engagement. I'm all for it again. Will it help a child learn? So, yeah, I think it's, I think these are exciting times. Uh, I think that the future is bright, uh, but also think we've got to get out of the way of what the future is offering us.

Jackie Guzda: 26:25

Wow. You know, you just had how they, um, article published in Newsweek. In the expert forum and you were talking there, the changes you're excited to see happen. So could you tell us a little bit about that? I know you were talking about curriculum,

Kevin Chavous: 26:46

Jackie. I just feel like. We don't know what we don't know, which makes life so much fun. Um, and I did a take on what we call the fourth industrial revolution. So the first industrial revolution was water and steam powered production. You know, that was a big deal in the 18 hundreds. And then the second was electric power to create mass production. So, okay. Electricity, you know, the hit that's the next one, the third was sort of the information electronics age, where you could use that new information technology to automate production. But if, say, I mentioned this earlier, this fourth revolution, industrial revolution really is a fusion of all of those things, where technology is gone to the next level. And it builds on this fourth revolution builds on the third revolution. And as I said, It's it's a fusion of the physical, the digital and the biological spheres. And by that, I mean the advent of artificial intelligence, virtual reality, literally being able to create a world, um, on your, on your computer, that feels as real as if you were driving a race car, you feel the bumps, you feel the movement, uh, how we use that to the betterment of society and how we integrate into that into the learning process. All of those things is, is going to explode, educational learning as we know it. So how, how do we get there with today's kids? This is I miss it. E-sports engagement. We've got to meet kids where they are fine. Understand what motivates them. Most of these kids have been digital from birth. Now this next generation, and many of us, Josh is young as you are you, you, you weren't from birth with, with this thing here. And it is now when you have that, there's this confluence of over symbolization that we've got to deal with, but also an incredible, uh, you know, comfort level with using technology that you know, people in my generation to, or three generations past me, don't have, I think we have to really focus on problem solving skills. You know, I've, I've probably visited. I don't want to overstate it, but well, over a thousand schools in the world. And when I first started visiting schools, when I was in office, where do you want to be when you grow up? But as I said in that article, what the question and my friend, Jaime Casap who who's Google's education evangelist in, in, uh, in Palo Alto, he said, Kevin, don't ask him that, ask them what problem they want to solve. So when I go to school, it doesn't matter the age. What problem do you want to solve What is what's in your community? What's in your world? Did you see? And I'm telling you I've done it so many times now that these kids go on and on and on, and y'all know I, you can tell, I can talk. I can't even get a word in edge wise when I asked that prob that question to a group of 6th graders or 9th graders or 4th graders, uh, I had in Charleston, South Carolina, The shy little girl said, there's a homeless shelter across the street and they should divert the line differently because I've seen homeless people almost get killed and being my sister, we'd like to sign up to help rescue these kids, to build these, these homeless folks to go in and get their meals. I mean, the things that come out of young people's mouths because they see the world around them and we've got to respect their, their ability to dissect and, and, and offer solutions. So problem solving and then, you know, the team building and collaboration, I think that that's all part of the future. So the article really was designed Jackie to tease out what's possible. And you know, last thing I'll say is I don't want to, it's always interpret some of what I say is a it's a shot or a criticism at what we do and how we do it, but it's not that it really is. Uh, cry out based on, on hope for what's possible because I do see what you can do when you free your mind. And by the way, that's really what learning should be all about. Hey, Kevin, I

Jackie Guzda: 31:24

think we have, so my daughter went to DC public schools. Um, we're not in DC anymore, but obviously our hearts are there. What about the parents where the parents fit in all this talking to politicians? We've talked about entrepreneurs and educators. Talk about the

Kevin Chavous: 31:39

parents a little bit. Well, you know, uh, what moved me to support charter schools, where parents, uh, when I had a woman I'll never forget group, it was here's the public house in Southeast DC. And. You know, the union folks told me I should not support Charles Smith. It was taking money away from public schools. I didn't know enough about the issues. And at the hearing I, the woman said, I don't know much about charter schools, but I heard them talk about some of the ideas here. And she said, I had a son who was entering high school several years ago. And the superintendent said, trust us. We're in play at the school. We bought what they did. And he had to walk over drug mitos. He got caught up in life and he's in jail. I've got another kid area, high school. There are other options. That worked for this child. I don't want him to walk over those same drug needles and that testimony just kind of blew me away. So since then, uh, I have been a big believer in the parent voice. Uh, actually I'm a big believer in the student voice as well. Uh, I think that in education policymaking, I've shared this with, I was just speaking with a bunch of governors in Charleston about this. I said, you guys shouldn't make any decision without talking to parents and kids because in every other instance, we pay attention to the quote unquote, India. But when it comes to education policy, we don't talk to the parents and kids enough. And so I'm a big believer in doing that. And I also think Josh said because of the pandemic parents got their nose under the tent a little bit, they saw what was going on in the classroom. There was some good, there was some bad, there was some ugly. And I think that's going to lead to an explosion of parent voices about what's going on in schools. And I think that's a good thing. So I'm glad, I'm so glad you raised it because this idea of parent engagement and you people say, well, parent choice is peer choice, but it's more, it really is about how you build a community of learners. You can't build a community of learners without, including the input in voices in a more profound way. So I'm glad you asked that.

Jackie Guzda: 34:06

No, I teach college Kevin and there was something in, I think it was in your article where you said by the year 2030, something like, and help me out with a statistic 85% of the jobs have not been invented yet.

Kevin Chavous: 34:25

Yeah. In fact, uh, you know, I can take it even lower than that. The average five-year-old will work in a job that doesn't exist today. So even when we think about career readiness, And though vocation concept, and we think about preparing our students for the work world, most of the jobs that they are going to have don't exist. So that's why the skill development can't be tailored to a specific position that we know about. It has to be around the problem solving. The critical thinking, the team building and collaboration, uh, how to acquire knowledge, how do you use the content available? I keep lifting up my phone and manage it and not be distracted or lead a straight, uh, how you segment out, um, you know, content in a productive way. I mean, I think that is the big role of teachers going forward. Almost like the Obi wan Kenobi, the guy, you know, we need to have these teachers say, you know, direct them. That is the question you should ask. I mean, how do

Jackie Guzda: 35:48

you do it, Kevin? You're super smart guy. Right? So, and there's, there's so much information out there, you know, and wonderful classes to take and teachers that you can learn from. How do you spend your time learning?

Kevin Chavous: 36:01

That's a great question. And please don't ask my wife that because he thinks I just put in my head too much. But so, but I think what, what, what I have learned to do when I look at a subject, the first thing I do is I, I, uh, I refuse and I force myself. I refuse to latch onto judgment associated with any subject before I learn about it. I think we're in an either or world right now. And we categorize people and things in places in too many boxes, too prematurely. So, you know, when I look at a subject or even when I hear something crazy on the news, I try to read about. it I purposely made sure I looked at, you know, one side and another, and then I try to discern, you know, what is, what is really happening here? What's the story behind the story? What are they really talking about? What is the point? And, and by the way, what is the issue? So that's how I generally approach sort of new, you know, receiving new information now, as it relates to, you know, Every day stuff like, you know, we, we started a garden, my wife, now she's out there doing this stuff and you know, I'm like, okay, well that'd be love there in Vienna. Yeah. She's out this suburbs. Yeah, I know. But you know, it's really, it's the same principles because my father, he grew up on a farm in Aiken, South Carolina. He had a huge garden. He was, he was big into this stuff. I never was into it. So we were talking about this more. I said, you know, I was reading about, you know, the way tomatoes. I, I, I ha I'm like the kid when it comes to new stuff, but I'm also very disciplined about making sure that I saturate myself with as much information as possible about whatever I'm looking at. Then I can figure out how to approach dealing with. And I think that, and I'm not being critical in this sort of social media. Oh, you said this. I don't like you or you're over there. Blah, blah, blah. I think we're low, too quick. We do in the superficial. Josh quick answer to your question about how operate I dig deep. I mean, just by instinct, I never stop with the superficial knowledge. I mean, I'm always like, all right, what's that, what's that? What does that mean? Where did that come from? And I find, I have a more rounded view, at least for me, it works for me. You guys teach

Jackie Guzda: 38:29

gardening on K-12.

Kevin Chavous: 38:31

Yeah, actually we've got, we've got some incredible agricultural pathways and it's interesting how some pathways are more, uh, attractive to certain regions. Um, And in itself, you know, the agriculture pathways are big and through automation, through technology, through, you know, artificial intelligence, you know, just in terms of how you lay out your crops and how you set the watering schedule and the harvesting schedule, you can automate all that. And to see these young people begin to embrace that and work through it. It's not like the, oh, you know, farmer John image, where you get out there and everybody you do that, but you do it in a, in a more structured strategic way because you have the benefit of all this other information and data in your resources. So most of the work is done on a computer screen. We're introducing these career pathways to middle schoolers and they're loving it because. Even if they don't finish that pathway again, it Stokes that curiosity and they keep going on because they find that, wow, this stuff is really cool. So that's, uh, that's, that's something that's very assigned. There are so many ways you can sort of engage kids and keep their interests.

Jackie Guzda: 39:51

So, Kevin, are you saying that you're inspiring through

Kevin Chavous: 39:55

the computer? Yes we are. And you know, the other thing we're doing, we're integrating the old with the new, uh, it's a set of visits. So many of our schools, one of our Arizona schools, I was with the math teacher who, uh, He was so excited to share this story with me. Um, because I'm always asking our teachers share me your success story, send of your challenges. She pulled me aside after I spoke to about 40 of our teachers. And she said, I got, you know, this game of vocation, they've put some gamification into the mass of a certain level. You get a badge, you get a star, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said this 14 year old kid who she was, it was hard to reach and he was struggling with math and she got him and, you know, got him involved with some of the gamification in math. And he sent her an email at one of the mornings that I reached the next level. Where's my badge. You know, you haven't gotten me. My badge now she's sleep. But you know, this kid was so into making sure he got to that next level, like the video games he got there, he wanted that badge. And so this idea of, we have another thing we call the recommender button, which is amazing. You can tell kit when they're reading it, they're paced, it slows down and then it speeds up. And Josh, you probably have heard this, but our recommended button, what it does is if a kid gets stuck in there's a pop-up and this animated, oh, it looks like so-and-so. Let me tell you more about this. And it helps, you know, answer questions. The kid may have, which we know through the data or the use of questions that happen at this passage, because most kids get stuck here. So, I mean, there's all this really cool stuff to help guide kids along the way through technology. And again, it's not a replacement for the human interaction, but it helps them when they're in their sort of self teaching mode or homework mode. And it's a whole different, whole different.

Jackie Guzda: 41:59

I had an experienced last night with my daughter, six and a half, six and three quarters, she would say, and she's on the iPad, she's doing her math and we, and she got this new program that she's using and she's getting all these points and I asked her, so what are you gonna do with all those points? She just looked at me and she just looked away and I don't think she knows what she going to do with them, but she loves loving math. She's loving it. She's loving it. She's got math in school. She's got a teacher who's, who's engaging with. It's awesome. And then she's practicing at home and she's loving

Kevin Chavous: 42:33

it as well. So, well, isn't that the way it should be? It broke my heart, you know, when I was in office and I go to school and I see a kid in the third grade and two or three years later, I saw him in the seventh grade and that light was gone and they hate a school and they were hanging out. And so during those critical. Periods, what should we be doing differently? How can we engage them again? I keep saying, meet them where they are. And you know, there are things out there we can do. Um, but we have to be willing to do them. And, um, I think it's, I think this country, that's why I talk about inflection point. You know, I'm a big history, history buff, and, uh, this idea of the force of will the belief system. You ha we have to have a fundamental belief that all kids can learn. And some people don't, some people say, oh, some kids, they come from background, but no, but you know, as a country, all kids can learn. We have to ask, be in our DNA, our core that all kids can learn. Every CA every kid can learn. We have to believe that. And, uh, and then we also have to be committed. To treating every kid we teach, like we're teaching our own kid. It's, it's, it's sort of a, uh, a constitutional construct. If you will, that this is, this is sort of the mindset you had have now. Um, I'm a big believer in force of will that you can do this. You can, we can do this. And, uh, you know, I remember, you know, reading about Churchill, uh, I'm a big fan of his that when the bombs were all, you know, Germany was bombing London and people in London were like, oh, we're going to be. And he said, look, vision is seeing beyond what you can see, do not pay attention to these bombs. Right now, we are going to overcome this. And literally he had that belief. And I want us to have that same belief about the power of learning for every child that we can do this. And, but to do it, you gotta work smart. You gotta work hard, you gotta be strategic and you got to be open to new. And so that's, that's where I come from. And I just love hearing stories, like talking about your daughter. I mean, I've got a five-year-old granddaughter and you know, she she's Tom enough for me. She said, you know, grandpa, look, this is what we're going to do today. She's got a schedule and I'm like, okay, do I have something else in mind? But I guess we're going to do I'm good.

Jackie Guzda: 45:22

Let me, let me ask you one more, one last question. I'll put you on the spot a little bit here. So yes, the kids can learn online in person. What about you, you know, in terms of online learning? Uh, so my parents were taking classes online. My parents in Rockville, Maryland, they don't get out too much, but they are taking classes online. They're meeting their friends online. What about you taking classes online?

Kevin Chavous: 45:44

Uh, I'm not taking any classes right now. Uh, but, uh, I, I will. Um, I'm very much open to it. I monitor so many classes. We offer our kids. I mean, literally the curriculum, you know, working through. That's why I can speak about like the recommender button and, you know, reading level. Uh, in fact, uh, I, uh, engaged in the unboxing exercise where we ship every child that we have in our system, a computer. So I went through the exercise of opening up the computer box and logging on. And, um, I had to call it for help, you know, I must say, did they pick up? Yeah, they picked up and I was like, I'm having problems here. Uh, so I'm a big believer in that I will be taking class on, you know, what class I want to take online. Um, I, I hate to admit it. You got a wait, you're going to know about one of my weaknesses. I just don't take what a foreign language and I want to take Spanish online. And, um, I'm committed to doing that. Um,

Jackie Guzda: 46:57

you do that and then you come and visit. I got a place for you to visit. If you hold up your end of the bargain,

Kevin Chavous: 47:03

I'll hold up. I will do that. Josh. You're on. It's on like popcorn. My friends, I

Jackie Guzda: 47:09

got poor down here. Like we talked about online. You come down here and we'll, we'll speak our crappy Spanish and drink for,

Kevin Chavous: 47:17

well, you're on, I will follow up.

Jackie Guzda: 47:23

And Josh, this has been a marvelous conversation about how wonderful these innovations and in learning would be and T so in order to bring about this change, Kevin, what do we have to do? Is it teacher training? Is it,

Kevin Chavous: 47:40

what is it? Yeah, I asked a great question. Um, I think that, uh, you know, we think globally, we act locally, uh, is similar to that old Greenpeace expression while a lot of these ideas, you know, have cache in a, in an esoteric way, you know, national session around Lorraine, building a national learning culture, keeping it positive that literally it's community about community. And I think one of the first things we need to do is those parents who are now getting engaged and putting together learning pots and learning hubs. I think that we need to coalesce that around some, uh, appraisal what's going on in each classroom for every child and what we can do differently. Uh, the other thing that I've suggested to superintendents that each school superintendent in every district in America should do two things. One, they should look at three things that they have been doing historically and stopped doing them. And then two, they should try three new things they've never done before and start. Uh, in corporate America, they have the R and D research and development arm. I think every school district should have some form that if you fund it with 20,000 or$2 million, you know, every school district should be pushing toward exploring what's new out there and piloted in some form or fashion. And that's why I love the idea of committing you're going to stop doing something and you start doing something new. Um, I think that, that these schools that are doing innovative work, like you should read about the Lindsay school district in Lindsay, California, uh, they created what I would call an incredible learning culture. It was the lowest performing school district in the state. For many years. I spent some time there and featured them in that book, building the last school I mentioned in my book, uh, they've completely turned it around by having a student centered approach. So. And the last thing it asks you your question. I think everything we do needs to be student-centered. Um, and actually think when you build school budgets, we should start from scratch and we fund it from the end user out. So the most important to people in a classroom is the teacher and the student. So you start with funding. What do we need for this teacher to be able to provide the support for this student in the classroom? And what does the student need to make sure that they're able to appreciate and learn from the teacher? Who's their new guy and build it out and, and anything that's extraneous that doesn't relate to those two. Most important variables we shouldn't do or should be low priority because if you dissect how school spend money, and I know this oversee oversaw DC Bush for years, uh, there are so many ancillary things that really have nothing to do with those two dynamics. The teacher, well, the assistant to the assistant, to the deputy of curriculum development. Do we really need that? You see what I mean? Um, I know a lot of people don't want to hear this, but that the deputy facilities manager who's in charge of overseeing the roof repair contract schools, your three sort of. Have been used to filling slots that have been existence for 50 years. And, um, I don't know if you need, you know, 40 people in a school district to oversee curriculum. I don't know. Maybe you do, but I would better define their roles so that you know, that what they're doing will have some direct impact or at least tangential impact to that learning experience between the student and the teacher. I know that sounds overly simplistic as school district superintendent. Well, you don't understand. I said, yeah, I actually do. And that's why I say the starting point is find two or three things you can stop doing. They're there. I guarantee if you have a multimillion dollar in some school districts like LA New York, multi-billion-dollar, you're telling me that there are three things you can stop doing that really have nothing to do with what's going on in the classroom for students. So I think that approach is the most. You know, realistic way to get people to think different physics in the day, the way we get there is to inject, you know, what's worked in the O with what we need to think about with the new, Hmm. Well, you

Jackie Guzda: 52:39

had brought up the concept of having a vision before and what you're describing now to bring about that change really sounds like to me is

Kevin Chavous: 52:48

vision. Well, I, you know, I'm, I'm so brutally honest with myself. I know I don't have all the answers, but because I am, you don't want to talk about basketball players to gym reps, they practice all the time. They practice. Well, I'm that guy when it comes to this work, I, I know I'm not even comparing myself. I know this space. I love this work and I love what's possible for kids. So I do know. But there are things we could do if we break the way from our tendency to just do what we've always done. And that, to me, if there's that willingness to really push the envelope and break out of the paradigm of the sameness of what we do, I think we can work magic. And, and that's why I think this is an incredible time. I think the sad reality of the pandemic is there's a global reset on many levels. And I think in education, teaching and learning, we're experiencing that same reset

Jackie Guzda: 53:56

change is never comfortable if no what comes out on the other end?

Kevin Chavous: 54:03

Yeah. I just am excited. I'm excited for my granddaughter. I'm excited for Josh's daughter. I'm excited for Victor Maasai for that kid. I mentioned that 14 year old, a 14 year old in Arizona. I'm excited for every kid that breaks away. And it defies the expectation. Of what has been placed on them. And I'm excited for America's future. These kids are going to clean up the mess that we've created, but the only way they're going to do that is to feel the engagement associated with embracing learning. So, and I'm excited for you, man, growing up,

Jackie Guzda: 54:40

watching you on the council, and then you're doing this. It's so cool to see, you know, how passionate you are about your job now and what you're doing. So I truly appreciate you answering that cold email and coming on.

Kevin Chavous: 54:54

No, I, I know what you're doing. I'm, I'm really, really honored by what you are doing, Jackie, what you're doing. And I'm not just saying that anyone who devote themselves to uplifting, you know, uh, our young folks and doing cool new stuff in education. Doing great work. And so thanks for reaching out. Um, you know, I, I hope that people understand where I'm coming from. I can tell you right now, people are asking me, well, what are you running for? I'm running for nothing. I'm running for my life. I want to make, you know, I want to make sure that whatever seeds I'm planting now it's really to pave the way for those that are coming past me. Because I mean, this, that the future is so bright and we just need to embrace it.

Jackie Guzda: 55:43

That's amazing. It's such an optimistic

Kevin Chavous: 55:47

do gooder. Well, I am optimistic. I really am. And I've seen a lot of pain. Uh, one of the toughest jobs I had was in this council in the middle of the drug war scene, going to funerals where the casket was, this big, you know, the drive-bys in the nineties. It was, it was tough. Um, Okay. But I do think that, you know, there's meaning behind all that happens and, you know, we just have to learn and grow from it. And I, I think that, uh, I think there's some really great stuff in the often for humanity, if we just, you know, get out of our own way.

Jackie Guzda: 56:28

Well, I think you've touched upon some points today about the future of learning, uh, Josh, you brought up online opportunities and I, you know, I wish we had more time. We don't want them to talk a little bit more about teacher training that can help bring the change along, but perhaps in a future web, we can do,

Kevin Chavous: 56:52

I'd love to do that. I have strong thoughts about that. And, um, I have a lot of respect for teachers, um, and I would ever stem not to be afraid. To learn and grow because I think many teachers, if you're, I can't do that and I've heard teachers who online, I can't do it. I say, yes, you can. Yes, you can. We'll help you. We're incentivize you. We'll help you. You don't have to, you don't have to worry about it. And, um, I think that, uh, we need to empower teachers by professionalizing teachers, uh, give them additional resources, give them additional money, uh, but give them professional development where they're not just sitting in a room and looking at a video tape, which is what a lot of schools do hands on training. And, uh, so yeah, I'd love to talk about that. I, I, I've got eight to 10,000 teachers that work at our company and, um, uh, I've spent a lot of time with them and many of them, most of them are on their mission-oriented folks. They're doing it because they love what they do. Um, But I think we can help take them to the next level. And, and this is the last thing I'll say, Jackie, we need to get out of the political sort of, uh, You know, uh, political double-talk about, I want to support education, more money for teachers. No, we don't need to hear that. I mean, let's actualize it, but actually spending time with teachers. So they are spending money, their own money to for classroom supplies has helped professionalize them and giving them more resources. And then let's ask them to help self policed because every teacher talked to say that it's also in the next classroom, doesn't know what the heck they're doing. And so, you know, I've told Randi Weingarten. I said, look, let's self police. You know, just like lawyers have panel Loris and disbar bad lawyers and doctors do the same thing. Let's have teachers do that. You know? And, and I think a lot of teachers would embrace that because there are some, some teachers that shouldn't be teaching, uh, most of them are doing great and all of them could do better if they had the support and the professional development that they had.

Jackie Guzda: 59:06

I'm with you there. I am with you a thousand percent there. So anyway, uh, you know, this has been such an enlightening condensation, and it's actually inspired me and giving me hope for the future. And I'll look forward to walking into my class tomorrow morning. Yeah. So you

Kevin Chavous: 59:29

keep doing it, Kevin. Well, thank you Josh. I appreciate you, man. And I appreciate the love and I appreciate the support. And more than that, I appreciate that you have, you've laid down the marker that you're going to make a difference in education technology. So keep on doing. Yay.

Jackie Guzda: 59:45

Well, we've run out of time. I'm so sorry, gentlemen. Perhaps in the future, there will be another, we're going to be drinking port in Mexico. So you kind of catch up with us. I'm bringing my own Chardonnay. So, um,

Kevin Chavous: 1:00:00

so anyway gentlemen, Snoop Dogg and the Corona commercials, right?

Jackie Guzda: 1:00:06

Oh my God. That was such good influence on these children that we're teaching. All right, guys. Thank

Kevin Chavous: 1:00:12

you so much. Thank you.