Fabulous Film & Friends
A podcast for the true cineaste. This podcast examines the impact great or memorable films have on us both personally and culturally. If you've ever bonded with someone or joined a lively discussion circle based on your love of cinema, this is the podcast for you.
Fabulous Film & Friends
Ep. 87 - Sci Fi 1996 - ID4 v. Star Trek: First Contact
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On our 87th episode we’re looking back at the year 1996, a simpler time when humanity came together and made big hits out of unsophisticated and unabashedly emotional sci-fi adventures. We’re talking Independence Day directed by Roland Emmerich and starring Will Smith, Bill Pullman, Jeff Goldblum, Judd Hirsch, Margaret Colin, Mary McDonnell, Robert Loggia, James Rebhorn, Brent Spiner, Vivica A. Fox and Randy Quaid and Star Trek First Contact directed by Jonathan Frakes and starring Patrick Stewart, Frakes, Brent Spiner, Levar Burton, Michael Dorn, Marina Sirtis, Gates McFadden, Alfre Woodard, Alex Krige and James Cromwell.
I’m Gino Caputi and returning for the follow up to our sci fi 1994 episode which compared Emmerich’s Stargate to the previous TNG Star Trek film subtitled Generations are author/hypnotist Joe Field and Utah IT tech and reformed TNG superfan Burton Brown.
Gentlemen, welcome. Before we get into it, the synopses:
The people of the planet Earth are utterly astonished and horrified when on July 2nd 1996, an enormous spacecraft, half the size of the moon, launches 10 city-sized spacecraft over the world’s major cities which proceed to blow them to smithereens. It’s up to President Tom Whitmore, Ace Fighter Pilot Captain Steve Hiller and MIT genius David Levinson to devise a plan on Independence Day to stop the alien army.
In Star Trek First Contact Captain Jean-Luc Picard’s old foe the cybernetic Borg return to conquer the Federation once and for all by traveling back in time to the mid 21st Century to stop Warp Drive Pioneer Zefram Cochrane from making first contact with an advanced alien species. Picard and his brave crew of the brand new USS Enterprise E risk losing their ship and being stranded in the 21st Century forever when they follow the Borg into the past in order to thwart their nefarious plan.
Which film is the winner of the battle of the invincible aliens?
Find out!
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And now it's time for fabulous filming friends. We're looking back at the year 1996. A simpler time when humanity came together and made big hits out of unsophisticated and unabashedly emotional sci-fi adventures. We're talking Independence Day, directed by Rowland Emmerich, and starring Will Smith, Bill Pullman, Jeff Goldblum, Judd Hirsch, Margaret Collin, Mary McDonald, Robert Logia, James Reborn, Brent Spiner, Vivica A. Fox, and Randy Quaid. Along with Star Trek First Contact, directed by Jonathan Frakes and starring Patrick Stewart, Frakes, acting, Brent Spiner again, LeVar Burton, Michael Dorn, Marina Steurdis, Gates McFadden, Alfrey Woodard, Alex Preeg, and James Cromwell. I'm Gino Caputi, your host, and returning for the follow-up to our sci-fi 1994 episode, which compared Emmerich Stargate to the previous TNG Star Trek film subtitled Generations, our author hypnotist Joe Field and Utah IT Tech and reformed TNG Superfan Burton Brown. Gentlemen, welcome. Before we get into it, the synopsis, the people of planet Earth are utterly astonished and horrified when on July 2nd, 1996, an enormous spacecraft half the size of the moon launches 10 city-sized, smaller spacecraft over the world's major cities, which proceed to blow them to smithereens. It's up to President Tom Whitmore, Ace Fighter Pilot, Captain Steve Hiller, an MIT genius, yet still only working at a cable company, David Levinson, to devise a plan on Independence Day to stop the alien army. And you can clap politely when I mention the title in the synopsis. In Star Trek First Contact, Captain Jean-Luc Picard's old foe, the Cybernetic Board, returned to conquer the Federation for once and for all by traveling back in time to the mid-21st century to stop warp drive pioneer Zephyron Cochran from making first contact with an advanced alien species. Picard and his brave crew of the brand new USS Enterprise E risk losing their ship and being stranded in the 21st century forever when they follow the Borg into the past in order to thwart their nefarious plan. Bert gonna pick on you first. Which film did you prefer and did first contact help or hinder you in your recovery from profligate trekkiness?
SPEAKER_00Well I I think I'll I'll give Independence Day the nod as the better of these two, but but I like this next generation one as well. It was just um I'd still watch it again, even though I just watched it just you know a couple days ago. I'll watch it again.
SPEAKER_03Joe, you're up. Which film did you prefer?
SPEAKER_05Um I would say that in terms of characters, uh overall I'm gonna say it was pretty close, but I actually did prefer first contact in some ways. Um and I think probably we'll get into more why later. We sure will.
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, I I I kind of hate these films. Um and I I it's sort of a tug-of-war kind of thing where sometimes I I don't like them. I didn't okay, I didn't like them when I first saw them in the theater. Uh, but I'm still a Star Trek nerd, so I bought first contact. So I have it. So I I I watched, I mean, I don't watch it much because I just don't like TNG in general, as I told you last time around. Um I this time around, uh maybe a hard week. I don't know. I didn't hate either film this time, but that said, I they're still pretty bad. I mean, I just like uh I just think uh Independence Day is the grandfather of the films that we have today, which is just mindless bullshit, and you just watch it and you go, Yeah, it's there's something quaint and fun about it that I I took for granted when I was alive in the 90s that it's just sort of gone today. There's sort of in it, there's an innocence that I I didn't see back then because that's all movies were like that in a sense. Um, but now it it feels kind of like ah, it's kind of like I say, it's like a throwback to the good old days where now it's just everything's so cynical, but it's still just a pile, it really is like a loveboat episode with visual effects. It just is it, you know, it's it's corny. Oh, I'm an exotic dancer. Hey, it's a living, you know. Like, oh my god, this is so corny. It's just a corny movie. Judd Hirsch is corny, it's just a pile of cheese. It might you might as well be watching Fantasy Island with spaceships, so that's all. Um, and and and I don't know, Bert. I have never understood first the love of first contract over any of the other movies. It's a next generation movie, it's it feels like a TV show, it's shot like a TV show, you know. Like they go, Oh, these Borg costumes were really expensive. And it's like, yeah, but they're stupid. There, you know, you think you think when you graduate to the big screen, um you wouldn't have rubber, it would be all hydraulics. It would be these cybernetics would make robots. At the very least, they should have C3PO costumes. At the very least, they should have plastic um like boots, like plastic metal boots like C3PO, instead of rubber. So you got you got all this. It was my first thought when I was watching the movie in '96 of you got all these clang clang sound effects, and you see this floppy rubber, and it's like, oh next generation, they can never go to the big leagues. It's always shitty TV quality. So I watched it again. I I didn't hate it, I was kind of interested, but it's still production value is weak, and cinematography is weak. It's like they're they're in that that um 21st century town, which was nothing but unimpressive. It looks like a TV show set. That's true. You know, there's no okay, so let's just say it's the last bastion of civilization in Montana. Well, I've been to Montana, Montana's open, it's open, but you don't have any of these open shots. None of the shots. So again, Independence Day, it's pretty cinematic. I'll give them Roland Emmerich can shoot a movie. His films look like a movie. Star Trek First Contact still to me looks like a TV show. Would you agree with that, Joe Field?
SPEAKER_05Oh, absolutely. I I think I think I I will say for first contact, it felt a little less TV showy than um the previous Star Trek film that we watched. So there were some shots that I thought looked better. I felt like there were some improvements in terms of some of the practical effects and some of the CGI, I guess, as well. Or I'm thinking of some of the battle scenes, for example, in space. Uh not that.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, I don't like that battle scene. I think it's nothing but uninspired.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I don't necessarily think it was very good, but I think it was a step up from where it was previously, is sort of what I'm saying. Uh and I think there was there were certain aspects that I liked. Part of me wondered if the reason why some of the things look so TV show showy, I guess, is because they're trying to make sure that it matches up with the TV series and felt that consistent constraint of like, oh, we need to make sure that everything looks and feels I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt.
SPEAKER_03Remember, remember as we saw in the last film, the Enterprise was destroyed. So now they have full rain. And I will say this about first contact the first five minutes where where you have that pullback of him on the Borg ship. Oh, yeah. And then he's like washing his face, and it's oh, the old nightmare within a nightmare routine. That seems at the very least, it seems like you're watching a motion picture. Like, okay, we're we're in the movie, and the first shot of the Enterprise going through the nebula is impressive until it until it leans, it's until it turns toward the camera and it has no sense of scope, there's no sense of size, which even Star Trek the motion picture, they didn't quite nail it. Nobody's quite nailed, like I've been on an aircraft carrier before, and an aircraft carrier, if you're standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier, it's huge, it's enormous. You know, these are giant ships. So if you're going to take the first-person view of it flying by you, it's going to take at least 10 to 20 seconds. And maybe they don't have the time, but I just think it doesn't look that impressive. So it's like, but forget my nerdiness there. It's it still seems like okay, we're in the realm of the new ship. I do like how they start in the conference room and it's all like there's no huge launch of the ship, there's no giant backstory. They're just saying, Yeah, we're not gonna go fight this battle, and that's all fine. I think the moment the the film first starts going off the rails is the introduction of Alfrey Woodard and James Cromwell, uh, Zephyr and Cow. That's where it starts. It looks like a TV show, it feels like a TV show. Those are two TV show characters. Anyway, won't get into performance yet, but the the film itself for me becomes corny the minute they start getting into their captain.
SPEAKER_02Does touching a spaceship make you feel so oh yes, data?
SPEAKER_03If you touch something, you have an I just hate the TV writing. It's like, oh, here comes a TV writing. We gotta start framing things for the morons to understand. And data's, yeah, I I can't stand Brent Spiner. In fact, a double feature with that ham bone is just too much to take. It's like, oh my god. And then further masochism, I just watched Independence Day Resurgence because I I thought I had seen it, but I didn't. I had seen maybe five minutes of it somewhere, and I'd for I hadn't seen the and he's got a major part in it, so I'm like, I've an Brent Spiner overdose. I can't stand him. Like, how William Shatner can get me labeled as a ham and not that guy is beyond me. You know, anyway. I just think the minute the Borgs start taking over, it's just TVville all the way. There's just nothing impressive about this movie. Thoughts, Bert. I'm sorry, I'm hogging, but you're getting me on a tirade. Next generation, I you know I'm always ready to attack with this that show. I will say this, Bert. Remember best of both worlds? The the the two-part episode with the Borg.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the cliffhanger, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was much better than first conflict.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's why this was well, I agree, but I think that's why I liked this one because it was like, oh, they're bringing the Borg back, and the Borg are the undefeatable foe. Right. You know, they're the Kobayashimaru of next generation.
SPEAKER_03But it was way more exciting when Riker had to decide that he was gonna kill Captain Picard.
SPEAKER_00Right, right.
SPEAKER_03Which of course they whist out of. And I in pure television form, sorry, Joe, to get in the weeds on this, but there's a two-part episode with the Borg, season three and four of The Next Generation, when I started like giving the show a second chance and go, okay, maybe the show's not as bad as I thought. But my problem with it is they cure Picard immediately. Like he's been taken over by the Borg, nobody's been ever been cured of the Borg implants, and not completely, anyway. And then they just cure him, they just they just fix him. It's like, shouldn't this have been a long, protracted season-long story arc where Picard is just the bad guy?
SPEAKER_00You know, that's where the continuity thing comes in, where I'm like, well, wait a minute. Technically, they could just run his DNA through the through the transporter, and he could be whatever age they want him to be. Yeah, like they did so. That's how they cured it.
SPEAKER_03It's been a while since I've seen it, but that's how they cured him, right? I don't remember how they I forget what the prop process was. She had to she had to remove all the implants from his body, and she and Beverly Crusher had the the whole like brand new technique to do it. But anyway, um the the point is is I hate here's a here's a just a pet peeve of any screenplay. It's when you don't see what happens and they tell you, you know, they do it in Predator, like before he died, Castillo told us that that there was this weapon that we found. Like, wait, we didn't see that? Somebody just tells us about it. So Picard, like, I don't care if in the in the opening preamble when Picard's having his dream that you see the board queen. I know they wanted to save her reveal for later, but it story-wise, it's a mess. So they should have because she's not in best of I I mentioned all this best of both worlds because the board queen's not in that, they didn't hadn't thought of a queen yet. Um, and so you have to bring us up to date. Like, we don't know what you know. There was most of that, those two episodes were Picard's off camera, he's just a bad guy, and so you can have Picard go through anything, it's fine, but show it because suddenly at the in the third act of the film, he goes, Oh, yes, yes, I remember you.
SPEAKER_02You wanted to mate with me. Yes, I remember.
SPEAKER_03And it's like, this is so stupid. We didn't see any of this, so there's no there's no tension. I don't care, yeah. She can he can say that, but we don't feel it, so there's no tension between Data and him fighting for her attention. I just think it's just it's by the time they're in that the third act, it's like this movie's it's just it's pure television. I just I don't like it. I don't think it's a a very strong sci-fi movie, and it it starts like the first 10-20 minutes like okay, seems like it's gonna be good. I'm always feeling like that. Yeah, this is this starts off on the right foot. No, you seem like I'm it seems like both of you seem bored out out of your mind. You're not not gonna defend it. Defend it. I'm here to I'm here to fight. I'm like Picard, the line must be drawn here.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I don't know. I just personally enjoyed it. There was a ton that I thought was silly, and a ton, you know, well, I and I totally agree that it was you know episodic or TV episodic, whatever you want to call it, television production. And there was a you know I I didn't ever like um this oh what is his name? You've already said it three times. Um, the Cochrane character. Um James Cromwell. I've never been a huge fan of his. He's okay. Um but it's like uh I I think it could have been a done better.
SPEAKER_03Um this and this gets into independence day. The Borg are too powerful for them to lose the way they do. You know, like I've never bought the whole, oh, because their organic tissue dies when with the leak, that then then they die. It's all just seems kind of lazy. So it's like because they were so powerful to beam on board undetected, and they infest, you know, these implants are, I guess, nanobots, right? They just these nanobots just grow in your body and make you so that's a pretty cool idea. The Borg has always been a cool idea, I think. Very poorly executed. It always looks like you're looking at people in a Halloween costume, uh, you know, at some goth Halloween party, and they're they're not as cool as they need to be for the movie. Even every shot with the women with their arm cut off, that could be really cool. It's just not cool because it's so gloopy. And what's wrong with the idea of um Star Trek the motion picture where V'ger creates all those nanobots and micro mechanisms to create Ilea? So fine, they can be humans who just have are just all robots. I think that's a much cooler idea. You don't need the stupid cop well. So who to answer me this? Somebody, who's in the engineering deck producing all that rubber and all that body armor? Like, is that supposed to be the Borg implants infesting the body? That looks so dumb. Just have all these like mechanical parts, but the you know, when they show the arms being fitted with drills and saws, it's like guys, yeah, it's like my same problem with the flashlights and in generations. It's this is the 24th century.
SPEAKER_02How about um, you know, like lasers, you know, how about like um like EMP cannons and uh uh you know how about actual cool like they got saws, they got drills.
SPEAKER_03He still has like a a two like a little drill bit crushing his eye in the beginning of the film, you know, like that looks so dumb. Like why?
SPEAKER_00What would be the point of that? Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03They didn't pop, they didn't pop well. They I guess they drill because he had the the locus eye thing, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, but not right through the eyeball.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, maybe they did, but I again it's supposed to be like a disease, right? It's these it's not so it's like make up your mind. They get infected with the borg implants like a vampire.
SPEAKER_00Well, somehow these nano devices can make all these tubes and external stuff that they're wearing. Yeah, where did it come from? Wow, like you said, where's the rubber? I don't know why.
SPEAKER_03It's it's better, it's better to what I'm saying. It's better just to have them, they become completely they became it's like vampires, right? They become they look like themselves, but they're all 100% mechanical, right? Um, all right, so let's let's train our sights on Independence Day. Independence day definitely same problem in my mind. It it it starts off, it's got a good first act for sure. Um, I I will add though that it's just a blatant ripoff of the miniseries V, which nobody again, when it came out, a whole gener, I guess 10, 12 years had gone by, so nobody was thinking about it. But it is scene for scene, the the movie V, uh the the miniseries V, which was from 1983. I watched it with Mark Singer and and a whole slew of TV actors, but it was the same I completely the same idea. So I've always been like, yeah, I don't know why this movie gets such a pass. It's a rip-off, it's a flat out ripoff of a much more interesting story, which V was an allegory about the Holocaust and rounding up scientists and people V V probably holds up to this day. I haven't seen it in years, but but it they you know, all the scientists get rounded up because they know too much about what's going on, and basically the aliens want to eat us and they want our water. And and so all the hat first, all the scientists get rounded up and then sent into camps. So it was a space age Holocaust allegory. Um, and but this movie's just a slapdash, like flat out, it just feels like you know, we're watching Love American style or something. Sorry for all these uh 70s references, Joe. But you gotta understand in the 70s, shows were like this, just very like human interest stories set on one theme. So if you have the Love Boat or Fantasy Island or Love American Love American style is more of an anthology series, but that kind of thing where there's this sort of trapping, but in the middle of it are all these heartwarming, heartfelt human interest tales. So I I it just feels like that to me. And it's it's really and again, ending is who here was satisfied with that ending? Joe, you satisfied with that ending to Independence Day?
SPEAKER_05No, not really. Um I mean, I think in general for the movie I don't know, it struck me as a little bit unfocused.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like Stargate, right? Very much like Stargate, actually. And even I mean, I it took like almost an hour to get to the point where it's like you felt like this is what they actually wanted to talk about for the rest of the film.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05So like it almost made me kind of it reminded me very much of Stargate in the sense of it being like, okay, so here's our kind of preamble to what we actually want to do, you know. It felt like with the movie, what they actually want to do is they want to have these cool fights of you know, flying around and planes and you know, this how to destroy this, you know, terrible threat and stuff like that. But they spend like the first 45 minutes just like talking about okay, so what are we like what are these things? What are they doing here? Um and going through all these different characters in no considerable depth just to kind of establish that they exist, I guess. Yeah. Um and not really much more than that. Right. And I felt like there were certain side characters who you could have just cut from the film and it would have been better, a more tight, concise narrative than that whole they had.
SPEAKER_03That whole Pee Wee Herman slash Keanu Reeves son of Randy Quaid's could have gone. I would have cut him out immediately, you know.
SPEAKER_01Even in in 96, I'm like, oh my god, like dad, it's me, Miguel, your son who talks and looks just like Keanu Reeves, you know, but had looks more a little like like Pee Wee Herman.
SPEAKER_03Like, this is just like so cringe inducing. It was cringe inducing in '96 for those who was paying attention. I'm like, I remember just shaking my head like that's television. Television always did that. Grab whatever, whatever hit, whatever fad is going on, and let's put it in crazy like when when Erica Estrada delivers a baby on a disco, it's just like whatever fad is going on, television always just felt like TV to me. It didn't have its own voice, it definitely has it, doesn't have its own plot. They swipe V and then they you know, then they make it so incredibly hard to beat, which I hate. And they and I say Independence Day is the grandfather of it all. Like, okay, they're way too hard to beat. A nuclear missile won't destroy them. Okay. So you've you've reached a point where well, what can beat them? And then they keep trying to pull the the rug out from under you. So when they have a chance, like, oh, we just we we gave them that computer virus and we've lowered their defenses. So that's where you nuke them, you know, not having Randy Quake go, remember me, you assholes! Like, well, how did he beat them? He's a teeny, teeny little fly, a little mosquito faced up against this enormous ray gun, and that he stops them. It's just so stupid. Like, I remember thinking that this movie's just so bad, and I look at it now and it's like not as bad as I remember, but still, like, I don't there's no plot here. So, what did they by gum? Get on the phone, get on the horn with the bloody Yanks or with the British, tell them how to beat them.
SPEAKER_00Wait, it's about time they came up with a plan.
SPEAKER_03Beat them by sheer complete unexplainable luck. Like, what did they tell them? Okay, so somebody has to kamikaze right before the ray gun blasts, and then if you hit it at the right angle, it will destroy the ship.
SPEAKER_00Or they could have just blown it up, they didn't really say that.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00But but the Americans didn't have any missiles left, so well again it had to be that one.
SPEAKER_03It has to be nukes. You show them like if a nuke blew up the mothership, it's gonna blow up the other ships. Yeah, but then doesn't that ruin Earth that it's under sure, sure, it does, but how else are you gonna fight them? I mean, you you made they made them too strong, and there's way too many of them. And to you know, Independence Day resurgence, uh this is side that doesn't this isn't I didn't ask it of you, but it does have one good idea, and that is that the Earth in 20 years adapts all the alien tech, and they did have a ground war in Africa with all the with all the aliens, so it has one like cool like it's a terrible, terrible movie. I mean, it's it makes Independence Day look like a like just a cherished beloved classic, which it is for some reason it was a giant hit, people were hungry for it, and I remember I left the theater shaking my head going, What?
SPEAKER_00I went on July 4th, must have been 96, yeah, yeah, the day it opened, yeah, with a bunch of friends, and we all loved it. Like, yeah, yeah, kick butt, take names, you know. I don't know. I don't know what we were all thinking, but we all liked it.
SPEAKER_03So but it it that this movie's endured, and I can see why this isn't like Stargate. I can see why this movie is endured. Do you agree with that, Joe?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, I I think what's funny is I think that I kind of actually like Stargate more, yeah. But that's also partly because I think it's on there are unusual aspects that are interesting. The Egyptian Egyptian motif is just not used as much, whereas I think that now we have a lot more sci-fi movies of a very similar stripe to Independence Day that kind of makes it like, yeah, this isn't really all that unique. Right. Um, but at the same time, I can also see why Independence Day has endured. There are pl there are a lot more moments in here that are kind of like, hell yeah, you know, awesome. Like, you know, Will Smith punching the alien and saying, Welcome to Earth. Yeah, it's like, yeah, love it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And they're like doesn't explain at all how he knocked the guy out with it, one punch to his exoskeleton.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was like an outfit, it wasn't even his face.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it managed to knock him unconscious for two hours.
SPEAKER_03Long time.
SPEAKER_05Three hours, I think is what they said.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe he was already injured from the crash and he was just woozy.
SPEAKER_03It could have been it. They didn't they don't explain much that same lack of focus as Stargate for sure. Yeah, like and and I totally agree with you, Joe. It's uh when I look at it, I go, yeah, I don't hate it anymore. I mean, I I used to just detest it because I do. I it did usher in an era of really stupid blockbuster cinema, like it just like, yeah, now it's all just a given that blockbusters are gonna be like fast and furious and just completely mindless. Independence day was the first terrible movie that was a giant hit in my mind. Where this is I mean, I somebody can correct me on that. Bert, you got any other terrible movies that were giant hits? But this is the first time a movie that was just like again, I just remember in the 80s, all the really good movies were were like Aliens was a hit because it deserved to be. Yeah, you know, um, Ghostbusters was a giant hit because it deserved to be. It was funny, you know. It wasn't, you know, the the movies that were hits were hit, you know, for you know, for a reason. Maybe I I don't love Last Crusade or something like that, but even Batman was interesting. It's it's a kind of a failure in a lot of ways, but Batman's still an interesting movie. But this movie is just like pure corn pone. It's just it's just it's succotash, it's sheer succotash. And you know, maybe it's sort of hard on its sleeve, and I give it credit for that, you know, where now everything's just super cynical and and still stupid is all get out. Um, and so I I it does feel memor I will say, no, despite all my gripes about it, it seems like a memorable movie that it's a visceral, memorable visual experience that I still remember.
SPEAKER_00Disputes? No. Well, it wasn't trying to be, you know, the the winner of the Academy Award. Right. Although it might have won some for technical reasons.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, visual effects. Yeah, visual effects.
SPEAKER_00But uh but that wasn't what it was for, and I think, you know, I don't know, I don't remember what sort of uh environment our you know America was in at the time in 1986, but maybe we needed this heroic is 96.
SPEAKER_03We were in we're in the at that point we're we're I was living here in Utah by then, yeah. But so Clinton's been re-elected, so we're uh a term and a half into Clinton. Bill Pullman has a sort of Clinton-esque quality. Um there's just an idealism that they're they're attributing to uh the American spirit that probably wasn't there in '96, but I think we still weren't used to just outright cynicism toward everything the way we are now, you know. So um, you know, I I got a kick out of just seeing the McLaughlin group again. Yeah. Like, yeah, you know, that that was the news program where they're well.
SPEAKER_00That was the comment I made is all these uh actual was I don't know if this is the first time, but a lot of these blockbusters or a lot of these movies were using real newscasters or anchors, yeah. No, they they've been doing that for a while. But uh I didn't remember when that started, but I'm like, well, there's I think that was a trope at that point. Um but yeah, it it just um to give it an air of reality or something, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03What uh do you agree though that it's just am I wrong? Am I off base, Joe? Oh Joe, do you see the the beginnings of okay now movies can just be flagrantly dumb? Because every blockbuster before then, I think even it was Top Gun or something, and I didn't love Top Gun, and Top Gun's plenty stupid, still seems rooted in some sort of logic. Whereas this just is it's just out the window. It just is completely out the window. Like you that even any dumb moron can go, how would he interface with the alien computer? How would any of this happen? This is so dumb. USB port. Yeah, they didn't even have a USB port.
SPEAKER_00It was alien technology that they stole from him, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, there are so many leaps in logic and kind of hand waving that goes on in order to make any of these different plot elements work. I mean, the other thing being that, like, oh yeah, of course, the aliens are you know using binary and using our you know satellites, satellites, which I'm also kind of like, okay, why do they I mean they have all these different ships surrounding this planet, they don't probably they don't need our satellites.
SPEAKER_03It's like Lord it's it doesn't remind here it reminds me of Lord of the Rings, the the two towers. I hate the two towers. Why? Because there's 10 million orcs, the fight is over in 15 minutes, no matter how many valiant fighters you have. It's like you showed too many bad guys. I always in Independence Day is the beginning. You don't what are they talking about? Satellites, all the their ship is a third of the size of the moon, it's too big. Like you can't beat an enemy this big, it just wouldn't happen. You would be demolished. It's it's it's it's fine, have them destroy the earth and the and the survivors steal a spacecraft, and and fine, and they have to like there's any other story to tell, but this story doesn't work at all. I'm like, ah, this story doesn't work. You either taper, you just clamp down on how powerful the aliens are, or you you don't, and we die. And it's this problem. And independence day is the beginning of that, where we can't possibly win. Joe, did we miss a point to this movie?
SPEAKER_05No matter how different we are, no matter our walks of life, we're all united in our common humanity.
SPEAKER_03I got that, yeah. That was a stirring speech.
SPEAKER_00Uh we will not go quietly into the night.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, all right. Well, let's just real quick, just talk about the cinematography. So uh uh anything you note. I mean, obviously, Joe, anything jump out about cinematography in either film?
SPEAKER_05I I didn't think either were particularly impressive. I I I do think that it was better in Independence Day. Um, I mean, at the very least, independence, you do get a sense in general of the scope of things. Like you're actually getting shots of entire areas. Um, you know, if if they're flying over a desert, yeah, you're getting desert shots. Yeah. You know, if you're over a city, you're getting city. Yeah. There's a there's at least a sense of like, yeah, this is the real world, and there's big scope and it's happening everywhere. Yeah. Uh whereas, like we kind of have already covered with Star Trek, it's like, yeah, it's like they rented out like half an acre somewhere in the middle of nowhere. LA LDS.
SPEAKER_03Just outside, just side L LA.
SPEAKER_05You know, and it's like, oh, and we're gonna pretend like this is a civilization when it's really just like a bar and a couple of huts. Yeah, you know. So it yeah, I mean, I don't think there's too much contest in terms of how how things are shot, that Independence Day is better. I I still didn't think it was actually that it I still think that the previous uh Amrich film uh Stargate was much more interesting in the way that it was shot and the sort of scenes that they had.
SPEAKER_03Uh they probably my my guess is they just because there was such a volume of shots and story compared to Stargate, they weren't really going for anything beautiful, beautiful. It's it's yeah, it's functional nineties, but big budget photography. That's it, just feels like like your your typical nineties movie, it looks like that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I mean I get the same feeling, uh, and this is I think also what you were saying is a lot of the Marvel films do something very similar. Yes, of like oh look, here are all these shots all over the world of different crazy things happening, and it's like they're not really taking their time to be like this is like look at how beautiful or incredible this is. It's like no, this here it is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean and and to to their to in their defense, they don't need to. It doesn't have to be beautiful because they're they're just shooting action, you know. So that this isn't artistic, it's it's really just sort of bare bones storytelling, so it just has to look impress. I mean, it well, it's still an impr I'd say overall it's a basically impressive looking production. Um it it it comes off as better than it is, you know, through its cinematography and visual effects. Like it comes off as a more memorable experience than it should be, because it has a distinct B movie plot. But it's not funny, you know. You would say, Oh, but they're just having fun. It's just a good, it's just a good solid time, but they the movie's not funny enough to warrant that.
SPEAKER_05No. Honestly, I I think that Will Smith, he I think, well, I mean, we'll get into actors later, I'm sure, but like I think that he really is very soon. Yeah. We have nowhere else to go. Yeah. Honestly, if you took him out of the film, I don't think it would be half the success that it is. Um, because his character brings a sense of levity and fun to it. That I and I think I mean, I know you said that you actually liked seeing Jeff Goldblem in here. I didn't care for him at all.
SPEAKER_03He he's totally contrived. I just like seeing him as a young man again. That's all that's all I meant. Okay. I've always found his part to be nothing but contrived.
SPEAKER_05It is. It's it's it's contrived, it's it's boring, and honestly, uh a lot of the time, just very obnoxious, uh, to me at least. And again, it without Will Smith kind of moving things forward in an entertaining, if not odd, direction, considering all the other characters who have such a sense of like, oh my gosh, the world's ending, and such I almost want to say gravitas, but they don't really make that happen. Melodrama, I guess, is a better way to put it. All these other characters who are very melodramatic with what's going on. Having somebody who's fun and brings levity to it, it's like, okay, this changes the movie from being just a total drag into something that's like, oh, there's moments of fun. Like, this is a fun popcorn movie to watch.
SPEAKER_03Face it, Steve. NASA's not gonna take you because you've you're you're dating a stripper. Like, oh, yeah, because no astronauts ever screwed a stripper before.
SPEAKER_00Or worn adult diapers.
SPEAKER_03It's just so like, oh, this movie. Anyway, no, it's it's just such a pile of cheese. I mean, it just this huge chunk of cheese, and I can't believe people didn't laugh. I mean, I still go, I just can't believe people like this movie. It's it's so like again, I can tolerate it, it's fine, you know. I you know, if I hadn't seen it and I haven't seen it probably in a good 15 to 20 years, I don't know how long ago. I I think I showed it for my kids once upon a time. I have a copy. That's I'm one of those masochists. I have a copy of it. I found it at Big Lots for three bucks. It's worth a look. So I I bought it and you know, so I dust it off. I had never even watched it, honestly. It was still, it was still like barely, it still had the tape on it, you know, on you know, the seal on it. And um uh I watched the extended cut, which I don't know what you get which version you guys saw, but there is an extended version that I watched where Brent Spiner explains to Jeff Goldblum how to operate the spacecraft, which I I hate when they cut out scenes like that. It's like that's a big scene that I needed for me to like the movie more. You know, James Cameron has a huge problem with cutting out important scenes. He cut out a scene in T2 where he gets the emotion chip or they they program him to have emotions, which would have been huge for me because I'm like, why is Arnold smiling and crying? I now understand why you cry. These are scenes that need to be in the movie. That scene definitely needed to be in the the original cut, at least in my opinion, because like that's an important scene. Um, anyway, uh, what was I saying? What Bert, what what do you got? What were we talking about? I'm sorry. I'm I'm hogging this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Cinematicness or cinematography stuff.
SPEAKER_03Anything anything you want to defend about Star Trek versus is there was there a better shot in Star Trek First Contact over anything in Independence Day?
SPEAKER_00No, uh I I mean I did like I like the ship initial stuff when they were introducing the D or E or whatever it was.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh I'll give the shot on the board cube, the opening shot on the board cube with Picard is fairly good. It still holds up more or less.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then and then on Independence Day, uh I don't know if we're gonna touch on effects later or or what, but sure.
SPEAKER_03We're talking cinematography.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was, you know, uh it seems like back then they made a big deal about that shadow effect. Like that was ILM was doing that or or whoever was doing their no, it wasn't ILM. ILM didn't do the effect, it was something special about that moving shadow across the earth, and then as it went up the you know, Washington Monument or and um in DC, it there was a big deal about that. I remember that back then. Yeah, like this was some new stunning special effect, and maybe that's part of why they won you know that Oscar you said. Um, and then um the other thing that I thought was cool in the movie, and uh I'm like, how do they do that? I mean, I know it's all models or wasn't really computers back then, maybe was it? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00For independence, yeah. Both both movies have CG in them. Yeah, but the I think the one was a semi-practical mix, or maybe it's a mix, where when they blow up the various cities, the fireball moves through the streets, it doesn't like rise up, it moves through the street. And uh and it turns out they they had this the model set of the cities, and they they turned them upside down, so the explosion would stay up on the streets, and then they just filmed it in a way to make it look like you know, right set up. I I can't explain it all, but I remember hearing that and uh and I thought, well, that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's what I like about about both Stargate and Independence Day, is they were it wasn't just this over-reliance on CG. That you can see a lot of the spaceship shops, the spaceship shots are models, and that gives it it gives it a little bit more of a tactile, realistic feeling, even though it's kind of faky, but it still feels like you're in the the world seems seamless. I don't stop and go, oh, those are all CG shots, except for when the ships come out, except when all the fighters come out, then it becomes CGV.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I didn't like it how they were tossing the cars in the streets. I thought that was a little weird. Yeah, is that the only way they know how to throw cars? Yeah, seems like I've seen that in other movies before.
SPEAKER_03But uh real quick, Jerry Goldsmith versus David Arnold on the music. Anything of note? I will I will start as I like I bought the Star Trek first contact soundtrack immediately. I like Jerry Goldsmith's first contact theme.
SPEAKER_00I don't love this one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't love uh David Arnold's music, the Independence Day music. I think it's a sort of a mishmash. It doesn't sound quite American, it doesn't, you know, supposed to be Americana. I I just don't think it's a very interesting theme. Um it actually to me sounds like he ripped off Patrick Doyle's uh Much Ado About Nothing music, but anyway, that's just if anybody knows what I'm talking about. I don't I just don't find it a very particularly memory.
SPEAKER_00I'm not quite as high brows Joe.
SPEAKER_03No, I think yeah, you know, you know, I I listen to soundtracks. But I I think Jerry Goldsmith, I don't love most of the score of Star Trek First Contact. I think it's pretty small and and and not one of his best works. Because again, the visuals don't lend itself to a grandiose music, but his his opening title music is really good. So um all right, so what we've all been waiting for is performance. So we got Patrick Stewart versus Will Smith. Um who who makes the movie? Who who carries the movie, Burt Brown?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think we've already discussed the Independence Day that it is Will Smith. You know, he's the top he's the top notch or gets the top billing or whatever you want to call it.
SPEAKER_03But you can't deny Patrick Stewart's presence in first contact, though.
SPEAKER_00It's it's his no, I mean he was yeah, um but it um there was a lot of others going on, but you do have to have him because he's the tie to the Borg, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I don't mean story-wise, but how how well did he carry himself in that movie versus Will Smith?
SPEAKER_00I I thought it was fine, you know, it was a Picard or Yeah, it was a Picard level performance. I don't know. Right.
SPEAKER_03Uh I I think he like I said, I think he was over the top. I think he goes too far over the top. You know, that scene where he smashes the the plate glass window with the rifle, he looks like Michael Jackson.
SPEAKER_00Well well, he didn't he didn't I don't know. He didn't write that or direct that, so whose fault is that?
SPEAKER_03I wouldn't have him do it. Yeah. Anyway, Joe Thots, lead actor. Who do you prefer?
SPEAKER_05Oh, Will Smith, 100%. I I think honestly, I think out of both movies, he was the biggest highlight out of either of them for almost any aspect. Um he was, I think, believable. He was fun. And he kind of never reached a point of overacting while still just I don't know, being not being afraid to have extreme reactions to things. Like I I could see it as feasible that like you know, after getting thrown out of his ship and just being hyped up on adrenaline, that he'd feel like, yeah, I can go out there and punch an alien in the face, why not? You know, what whether or not the scenario is at all realistic or conforms to anything that would be logical is you know up for debate. But I think that him being the character you could see that being like, Oh yeah, totally he would do that.
SPEAKER_03It's just like run up and just you know that's the movie that launched him into Super Stardom, though. So and he he does earn it in that movie because he he um he became like because he does ground the the all the corn and the cheese, um, and it he does sort of give it the central focus, which if you see the sequel, it's sorely missing because he's not there. Um, but yeah, uh so then I guess we got Brent Spiner versus Bill Pullman or Jeff Goldblum, I guess. Or so I guess Brent Spiner and Jonathan Frakes versus Bill Pullman and Jeff Goldblum. So how does Jeff how does Bill Pullman do? And I've always thought Bill Pullman's a pretty interesting actor, but I I don't like him that much in Independence Day. So what do you what do you guys how do you guys feel about it? Bill Pullman. Brent Spiner, you you said you don't like Jeff Goldblum. So what do you say? Jeff Goldblum, who's worse, Jeff Goldblum or Brent Spiner?
SPEAKER_05Uh Spiner, uh definitely. Because I mean like uh I found Goldblum annoying, but just all the the stuff with data as a character is also just obnoxious.
SPEAKER_03Indeed. You you haven't weighed in on Bill Pullman.
SPEAKER_00Bert oh well for that particular character, I thought he suited it fine. You know, he's just some generic politician that happened to be president, former pilot, former pilot, fighter pilot, or whatever. Um, but nah, he was fine. I don't I don't know much of his other works.
SPEAKER_03I know who he is, but I don't well at that time he had just done it what was the while you were sleeping, the most famous stalker movie, most popular, successful stalker movie ever. You know probably didn't see it. The charms of Sandra Bullock overcomes the idea that she basically lies about being a comatose man's fiance. In the real world, would be grounds for going to jail or a psycho ward, but in this case, she's so he was the he was the romantic lead, and while you were sleeping, he was a big enough star. He he had that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I knew of him, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03He sure he's hilarious in um Ruthless People.
SPEAKER_00So he I know I saw that, but I don't remember anything about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he plays a total moron. I mean, he's he's a good actor. I yeah, he was in the zero effect at that point. Um, anyway, I I just he he's it's like Kurt Russell to me. It's like you took a good actor and you gave him a part, but you didn't get do much with him.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05You gave him a big he gave him a big speech. But his performance in general and here just kind of the word bland comes to mind. Uh there's not a whole despite being on screen for a large amount of the movie, he just isn't it's not that interesting of a I think that might be just not a very interesting character to play. And I I don't think he's he overacts or really underacts it, but he's just kind of like, I don't know, generic politician.
SPEAKER_00Um you know, his wife dies. And yeah, totally glossed over. Yeah, and I'm like, boy, it didn't he didn't shed that many tears, if any, over that, you know, and then the daughter was kind of she was young, she might not have understood yet, but it's like this daughter was at least sad. But I don't know, I just thought, wow, they you know, they just lost her, and yeah, the world survived, but isn't that also a great loss? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I think it's kind of odd. I I agree. It's I mean it that's where it always felt like a TV show. Um, I mean, yeah, everybody's been dead at this, so they lost the city of Houston. Sorry, Joe. Like, you know, they lost all the Texas everything. So at this point, it'd be kind of hard for him to grieve too much, I guess, since so many other people are dead. Um, but he got her back only to lose her, which you go, what's the point of this?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Not only did it seem pointless, but it also kind of punctuates like the weird choice for him to go up in a plane and start fighting, considering that he'd be leaving his daughter an orphan. Right. With I doubt any I mean, I guess we don't know where her exit their extended family is, but there's a fairly solid chance they're all dead, too.
SPEAKER_03So absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Um why that couldn't be brought up as a plot point of like, uh, I really want to go up there. They needed pilots, you know, because we need pilots, or on the other hand, like the daughter coming up and being like, you need to go up there and save him or something. I mean, granted, that would have still been pretty cheesy, but at least at least it would have been some sort of a tied up plot.
SPEAKER_03You know, for sure, for sure. Uh it's um are there any how about bad guys? So uh the aliens versus Alice Krieg as the the queen. I I I think like Stargate, the aliens are a huge ripoff of our favorite uh Ridley Scott James Cameron aliens. They're I mean, an enormous between besides V, they just rip off the look of I mean, everybody's been ripping off the aliens, the H.R. Geiger alien since 1970. I mean, what was that? The Quiet Place, total alien that all of them, whether it's the Marvel movies, everybody's been ripping off that design. And so it's it's definitely time right now for somebody to come up with a different design for an alien, whether it's an amorphous blob, I don't care. But in 96, it was still uh new, I guess, and fresh to rip off that design. But I'm just nothing but unimpressed with that design, and more than ever now. Just like that design. But anyway, uh the bad guys themselves are we have no idea what their deal is. Um, which at least the the show they were ripping off, V had a really good uh setup for who the bad guys were. So I just think they just once again told the story they wanted to tell this human drama, but we have no read on the aliens whatsoever.
SPEAKER_05The only read we have is that they're evil and they want us all dead.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05I mean, like, because literally the only thing that happens, the only time they actually get contact with them, which die I thought I thought could have been an interesting interesting idea is like, oh, they can't talk to the people, but they can take people over telepathically and communicate through others. But yeah, what do you want? How can we comply? Just die. It's like, really? That's what this sophisticated race of aliens is telling us to do, is just die. Right. Well, okay, well, we can't comply with that.
SPEAKER_03I mean, they they can they can they can fend off a nuclear missile. They're they're pretty sophisticated.
SPEAKER_05Um technical, yeah. You know, it I mean it's just uh and their whole thing is like they go from planet to planet just destroying things and collecting all their resources and then moving on to the next one. Right. It's just there there's no they're they're basically just set up almost as just an overall evil threat that has no actual way to reason with or anything. It it might as well be a natural disaster. Right. Like at you know, to some extent. Like there's good.
SPEAKER_03But that's what Roland Emmerich started doing afterward, is just disaster movies. So he I don't know if you've seen his other step. Well, then he did the god he followed up with Godzilla, and I'm I'm not gonna subject you to Star Trek Star Trek Insurrection and Godzilla. I just can't, I don't have enough time in the day, honestly. I'm I'm not watching those again. Uh but yeah, then he did 2012 or the no, the day after tomorrow, then I gave up.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I gave up. I started giving up on his movies just because they became just these big cheese fests. Like, I don't know why I didn't give up after Independence Day, but I definitely gave up after the day after tomorrow. Godzilla was enough. His Godzilla movie is just awful. You've seen it a long time ago. I think I watched it when it first came out in the Matthew Broderick, yeah.
SPEAKER_052004 or six?
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, 1998. Oh, was it okay? Yeah, I was a lot younger. Two years later, again, it was me it was gonna be the giant movie of the summer.
SPEAKER_00I think I tried to watch that one.
SPEAKER_03There's so many Godzilla's I mean, no, but the that was his Roland Emmerich and Dean Devlin, you know, the from the teen eggs, right?
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Remember it. Yeah, it's it's awful. I mean, it's all the Godzilla design's awful. It's just a terrible, but it's a stinker that that kind of sent them on their trajectory uh of just straight to B movies after that. Um then he did the Patriot with Mel Gibson, and again, tried to be in the big leagues, couldn't compete. But um people can people like the Patriot. My mom likes the Patriot. It's terrible. It's terrible. It just shows that yeah, you can't you're you can't make a grown-up movie. It's just not in you. But anyway. Um any other actors of note? Anyone you want to bring up? Bert Bert Brown.
SPEAKER_00Anybody.
SPEAKER_05Oh, but real real quick on the villains. I I did actually like the Borg Queen. I I thought that she I mean, I I think that for what she was, she actually presented an interesting kind of villain, them fatale kind of thing. Although I don't really know why she was as sort of erotic as she was supposed as they made her.
SPEAKER_03But um I thought that's just br that's Brandon Braga, the the writer. He just he's a kinky guy. He just wanted, but again, television kinky. So it just comes off as cheesy, it just comes off as some old guy in a cravat trying to, you know, expose us to cyber porn kind of thing, you know. Like, yeah, it's not I I don't know. It doesn't work for me because it's so cheesy. Uh, it doesn't feel erotic. And again, I don't think she should have any scenes with data. I just think she would just like not care. He's a robot. He's already whatever. You're just a robot. We're we're way better than you, you know, you're like outdated because you you aren't you aren't a cyber uh a cyborg, you're you're just an android. That's like that would have been cool to have that sort of prejudice, but they did they didn't even address it.
SPEAKER_00Um well, there were no others in existence to be prejudiced against, so but just a that's a lie.
SPEAKER_03See, that bird, that's a lie. Lore, their brother, was commanding, but he but he was commanding the Borg. Remember, there's an episode where he So see they they I look, I'm I'm not a huge gener next generation fan, but I watched enough of the show to know what's going on, and they don't address it, fine. But he's like, Yeah, we ate through your brother, your brother's a moron, you know, whatever. Like, like they there's another, it's another, it's Data's twin brother. They keep bringing up Data's brothers constantly.
SPEAKER_00But that's how they fixed him when Data died in an episode. They just got lore's head and put it on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I got it. But I'm just saying that they they um the the Borg of Experience, and she's she's aware of she's aware of um of lore, right? Like, you don't have to explain it. I know it's a movie audience, but to have her so like completely ignorant of what data's all about is just kind of irritating. Like, again, I don't need all these fan servicey continuity comments, but I know that well, the Borg wouldn't be threatened by data, they would just discard him. So that that's all. Like, yeah, we want Picard. And why does she want Picard? Ex explain it. They don't explain it. Like they're a hive, they're hive, right? They've got a hive mentality, they don't need oh, I remember you wanted to mate with me. It's I I don't buy it. Like, why? No, she doesn't, she just absorbs everything. Um, but yeah, if if she's a sexual robot, fine, but for what reason? And it doesn't really establish that. It's just to me, just for this sort of cheesy TV style kink. And it it doesn't work as an idea because they're not sexual. They're they're they're basically a mutation.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I think I I more like her performance, I think, than well, it's Alice. Or maybe her voice, I guess. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03No, it's Alice Krieg. She's a I first saw her in uh Chariots of Fire. I mean, she was an established good at American actress, you know. So she's she's one of these people who's been who'd been around, you know. It's like like all of them. I think maybe she came out okay, but I'm I always say when just remember what I said about Malcolm McDowell. Maybe she came off a little better because she's a skilled and she's not that big a star. So it's like, where does she go? Yeah, like she wasn't like it's not like she was a name, she was just a sort of a sturdy, reliable theater, you know, working actress. So she doesn't embarrass herself for sure.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I I I do like her performance more than Malcolm McDowell's, though.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, she's she has a more of a presence for sure.
SPEAKER_05Yes, more of a presence, yeah, a little bit more interesting, and compared to the the Aliens of Independence Day, at least even if it's a kind of stupid reasoning for different things, at least there's something kind of there beyond just like we want you to die. Right. It's like okay, uh assimilation, that that's I'm I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_03But you know, you have you have to get into the psychology of why she wants per card, though. Yeah. In order in order for her to in order for her to make sense, I just that's my problem. Like, yeah, but why?
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, why have some sort of a consort or whatever it is? Like, we can both rule together. It's like, well, if you're collective, yeah, are you is anybody really ruling anybody? Right.
SPEAKER_03Well, but that's the thing. They brought her in because they needed somebody to speak for the the zombies, right? So it's the leader of the zombies, so they so it's like, oh, it's a hive but with a queen, so they all serve their queen. Okay, fine, fine. We know bees have a queen and all that, and aliens have a queen, so it just seems to me, it just feels like a like so on the show, it was there, they were just a collective, so it then they had to change that for this movie to work because they wanted a bad guy, yeah, basically, to to speak for the Borg. Otherwise, the sport the Borg would be no difference than than Independence Day. Um, but I don't think they're entirely successful. So I think Independence Day needed one voice that wasn't just die, you bastard, die. You know, they needed somebody going, oh no, we'd like to share our technology as long as we can eat you. We need to eat you. We survive on humans. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't have that. You know, there's gotta be some deeper reason than I mean can't V already did it. We we need you for food, baby, you know, and there was the whole faction of of of in in in V, there was a whole faction of visitors because they were lizards, they were all lizard aliens dressed like humans, you know, they had made themselves look like humans, but they were all deep down, they were lizards, and they wanted humans to eat and they wanted the water, but there was a whole faction of peacenics who were like, no, no, no, we don't want any parts of this. We want to we want to spread the we want to be peaceful. So there was there were different factions involved, and it was more interesting. And I guess Independence Day didn't want to do that because they wanted more scenes with Judd Hirsch, you know recommendations, Bert. You reckon to recommend either film despite the thrashing I gave them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I would if you hadn't seen Independence Day, I would tell someone to watch it. Um again, uh it's like I'm not the type that just say, you know, go in there and expect grand performances. It's like uh it's just a good old pot boiler, you know. Yeah, you know, and if it's like data in that one movie, yes, you know.
SPEAKER_03You know, I think Star Trek should be better than this, though.
SPEAKER_00I mean, all the well, that was the independent movie.
SPEAKER_03All the all the Star Trek movies, all the Star Trek movies have even Star Trek III, which is the most bare bones plot, I think has something better than just standard kill the bad guy action. And I think Star Trek First Contact gets a lot of praise for being basically a uh it you know, we paired these two films together. I think they have a lot in common, they are just sort of pot boilers. So um, I don't get why it's I'd say I'd take Star Trek V over First Contact any day. Star Trek V at least uh uh uh uh aspires to to big ideas, where first contacts, I don't think there's a really cogent idea in the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00Right, it's just uh us against them. We better win.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I think it's it's a boring, and I think it's not very interesting action, as I've said.
SPEAKER_00So I I anyway, I don't want to tell you what I think well no, uh well I think I was trying to think of why I liked it, but again, I wasn't you know, I hadn't seen it in a while. Um but I I like it so much better than generations. Um Yeah, I don't.
SPEAKER_03I think it falls into the same traps. Alright, gents. Well, so thank you. Um thank you for having for joining me and like us on Facebook and YouTube and all that, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to Fabulous Film and Friends, Copyright 2024, a Bel Air Films production.