Fabulous Film & Friends
A podcast for the true cineaste. This podcast examines the impact great or memorable films have on us both personally and culturally. If you've ever bonded with someone or joined a lively discussion circle based on your love of cinema, this is the podcast for you.
Fabulous Film & Friends
Ep. #101- How BAD Could They BE? Joker: Folie á Deux v. Kraven The Hunter
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It’s Episode 101 and while we’re gearing up to charge full speed ahead, we’re going to take a quick look back at the halcyon days of the fall/winter of 2024 when two earth-shattering comic book movie bombs were unleashed on the cinema going public.
We’re talking Todd Phillips’ Joker: Folie a Deux starring Joaquin Phoenix, Lady Gaga, Catherine Keener, Zazie Beets and Brendan Gleeson up against JC Chandor’s – who are we kidding? Marvel/Sony’s Kraven the Hunter, starring Aaron Taylor Johnson, Russell Crow, Ariana Debose, Fred Hechinger and Alessandro Nivola.
I have assembled my team of elite assassins to pick off and pore over these two fearsome digital age fails, starting with my kid sis and charter member of the Sinatra/Silva Karate dojo Roseanne Caputi, Joe Field hypnotist, psychologist author and quite the crooner, as well as the larger than life, accept-no-substitutes, KING of the real estate drone photography jungle, Gordon Alex Robertson.
Before we commence wrestle with those CGI bears and saucy tripper chicks, the synopses.
Joker: Folie á Deux
In this follow up to the inexplicable 2019 mega-hit, The Joker, Arthur Fleck, barely subsists at Arkham State Hospital as he awaits trial for the five, technically six murders he committed in the last film. However, he soon gets his zip back when he is allowed to attend a prison music therapy class and is introduced to fellow inmate Harley “Lee” Quinzel. Together, they share a passionate love affair fueled by music, mayhem and delusions of grandeur.
Kraven the Hunter
After being mauled to the point of death by a lion, Sergei Kravinoff, son of notorious Trophy hunter and drug kingpin Nicolai Kravinoff, gains enhanced jungle animal abilities and becomes Kraven The Hunter, a sort of bad guy who fights for the little guy against drug dealers. On his quest to prove himself as the ultimate predator, he confronts his father and half-brother Demetri aka the shapeshifting Chameleon while also teaming up with Calypso, a voodoo potion wielding lawyer. Also, he goes up against The Rhino.
So how BAD can they BE?
Find out!
Watch the podcast on Youtube:
https://youtu.be/jRItWg1TTWg
And now it's time for fabulous filming friends. It's episode 101 and we're gearing up to charge full speed ahead. But we're going to take a quick look back at the Halcyon days of fall 2024 when two earth-shattering comic book movie bombs were unleashed on the cinema going public. We're talking Todd Phillips Joker, Folie Adu, starring Joaquin Phoenix, Lady Gaga, Catherine Keener, Zaze Beats, and Brendan Gleason. Up against JC Chanders, ha! Who are we kidding? Marvel Sony's Craven the Hunter, starring Aaron Taylor Johnson, Russell Crow, Ariana DeBoes, Fred Heckinger, and Alessandro Navolo. I have assembled my team of elite assassins to pick off and pour over these two fearsome digital age fails. My Stanley voice. Starting with Kid Sis and charter member of the Sinatra Silva Karate Dojo for Vinny Kaputi, Joe Field, hypnotist, psychologist, author, and quite the crooner, as well as the larger than life accept no substitutes, king of the real estate drone photography jungle, Gordon Alex Robertson. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Alex. You're a Russian big game hunter heritage. Give us your best Russell Crow with this potent stock St. Petersburg accent, ordering from the Burger King drive-thru. Or as Mr. Crow calls it in the land down under, hungry jacks.
SPEAKER_06So, uh, what do I get with those chili fries? Do I get uh big chocolate milkshake? You better make it too, because I'm on a diet. And uh oh, lots of pastries. Yes, pastries. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01Lots of gravy correctly. Don't forget the gravy, Ed!
SPEAKER_06Oh, don't forget the gravy.
SPEAKER_01Lots of gravy. Heart stopping gravy. Okay, before we commence wrestling with those CGI bears and saucy tripper chicks, the synopsis! Joker folie a deux. In this follow-up to the inexplicable 2019 mega hit The Joker, Arthur Fleck barely subsists at Arkham State Hospital as he awaits trial for the five, technically six, murders he committed in the last film. However, he soon gets a zip back when he is allowed to attend a prison music therapy class and is introduced to fellow inmate Harley Lee Quinzel. Together they share a passionate love affair fueled by music, mayhem, and delusions of grandeur. Craven the Hunter! After being mauled to the point of death by a lion, Sergei Kravanov, son of notorious trophy hunter and drug kingpin Nikolai Kravenov, gains enhanced jungle animal abilities and becomes Kraven the Hunter. A sorta bad guy, sorta good guy who fights for the little guy, sorta, against drug dealers, sort of. Also, also can't make this.
SPEAKER_06Does it sound awesome? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_06Oh, that must have been some table talk. Yeah, right. Also, he goes up against the rhino.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Are these films, are these films really that bad? Find out.
SPEAKER_02I can't be your Stan Lee.
SPEAKER_01As good as I got. Alex, you got a Stan Lee on you? I do. No, you can you can you do Stan Lee?
SPEAKER_06I'm old. I draw comics. Which way did the Playboy mention? Okay. I got nothing. I it's true.
SPEAKER_01Okay. All right. Well, let's go on around the room. Okay. Are these both just terrible? As bad as okay. Wait, before we go around the panel, I just want to back up. I wanted to do Joker Folie. And by the way, we have to prove to my French listeners that we're not dumb Americans. We can't say Joker 2. We have to call it by it. We have to call it by its title. All right. So um I was going to do this in October when it came out, and I looked down at my watch and I looked up, and the movie was gone. Gone. I never got a chance to see it. Craven the Hunter, I didn't give a crap. Of course, Craven the Hunter was a terrible idea from the get-go. As a long time, as a long time Spider-Man, you know. Is it pop by the sailor or Stanley? I can't do that.
SPEAKER_02It morphs into both.
SPEAKER_01Well, as it should.
SPEAKER_02Sure, I guess now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But uh as a longtime Spider-Man fan, I could have been walked right into the Sony board of directors or chair of board of directors conference table and said, guys, this is a crap idea. Nobody's gonna see it. Nobody gives a crap about Craven the Hunter. They just don't. Uh so yeah, I knew this would be terrible, just like Madame Webb and Morbius were terrible. There, it's a bad idea. And and again, to all you dorks out there who made the Venom movies a hit, shame on you, because he's another terrible character. So it's just that's just dumb luck, you guys. Dumb freaking luck that you thought you were gonna make a franchise out of all these second-rate characters. So there's that. But anyway, um, so I didn't want to see Kraven. I want to see Joker Foley Adu out of uh curiosity, just thinking, because everybody just trashed it. So I was meaning to do this podcast way back when, but here we are. How bad could it be? How bad could they be? Roseanne Caputi, start us off. How bad are they?
SPEAKER_04Um so I really like Joker Folia Doo. Uh and I I saw it when it came on Max, and it really was gone in two seconds. And of course, I was prompted to see it because Lady Gaga's in it, and I found out it was a musical. Uh, I hated the first Joker with a fiery, hot, hot passion. Um, and I thought it was a derivative piece of sloppy trash, and this I actually truly liked. Um, and so that and I I was wondering about it because I hated the first joker and everyone loved it, and then I thought, well, maybe the second one's actually good, and then it was. Uh however, let's see Craven. I even forget the name of the movie. Getting in the back of like a neutral colored sedan with a person with no face and driving for two hours and six minutes and then being dropped off in the exact same place. Like that's how I would just what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_03I don't get it.
SPEAKER_04It was just the most like ridiculously pointless experience of my life. I just fucking hated it, and and not, I mean, it was so bad, I just resented the fact that it was it continued to exist, that we continued to exist at the same time. That's how I felt about Craven the Hunter.
SPEAKER_06I think I know that place where you're dropped off.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you ended up there too.
SPEAKER_01Palookaville, aka Sony Studios.
SPEAKER_03What the shit? So that those are my views. I was gonna say Utah. Utah has texture, baby.
SPEAKER_01All right, Alex, you're talking, you're talking. Give me give me your thoughts.
SPEAKER_06Uh okay.
SPEAKER_01How bad can they be?
SPEAKER_06Um, you know, I Roseanne, I you know, she topped it. I can't top that uh on Craven, but I will say to me, Craven is just the a criminal, colossal waste of talent. Because there are some good people in there, and I hope this does not besmirch their careers. Uh, number one at the top of the list, Aaron Taylor Johnson.
SPEAKER_01I don't think anybody cares enough for it to matter. It's so bad.
SPEAKER_06Good, because Aaron Taylor Johnson deserves better. And you've heard of six-pack abs. The man has eight pack abs. He is a freak of nature. He, and I'm gonna say this, and I'm gonna jump on Piers Brosnan uh bandwagon and say that he should be the next Bond. I that's just my opinion. Okay, now back to the movie. Uh, he deserves better, he really does. I mean, I'm really beginning to like this guy. Um, and he thank goodness he did make it interesting enough, but it was again a colossal waste. Alessandro Navarro. Alessandro Navarro. He phoned it in.
SPEAKER_01He was terrible.
SPEAKER_04He still Taylor Johnson usually has a crazy look in this eyes.
SPEAKER_01All right, all right. I'm not saying I'm not saying you're saying this. No, no, no, no. This is like uh let him talk. So go ahead.
SPEAKER_06Oh, what are you talking about? No, guess who I am. Teddy Huger. Welcome to our show, you big fat grease ball. No, yeah, I lost my train of thought. Thank you. Okay, I'm I'm gonna be a defender of him because he did deserve better. No, he has done better, obviously. And Alessandro Navarro, uh Navarro, I'm hoping has always been Navola. Navola, thank you, has always been interesting. Agreed, and it was just like what an unreal until today, and I do not blame him.
SPEAKER_03Face off interesting and yes, yeah, the guy can do that.
SPEAKER_06The guy is one of those. Let's not forget in uh Wildcat. I mean, the guy uh at the beginning of Wildcat, the publisher. Yeah, this guy is is versatile. I mean, it's like, man, he can, you know, and the poor guy is saddled with a very thin, watery uh uh script that was written somewhere in Utah.
SPEAKER_01We'll we will get into this, but even by Marvel comic standards, this was just horse crap. It was crap and thank God.
SPEAKER_06Joker and Joker, what did I my god. Oh, wait, I I'm in agreement with Roseanne. I I'm not as hateful on the first movie, but I do agree it was derivative. It was like I've seen this kind of thing before. Why do people love this? And Joker 2, Joker, Philippe. Um wow, what a revelation! And really, what a complete movie. You know, you know, it made me forget the first movie.
SPEAKER_01Or even better, it's one of those rare movies that pulls the first piece of crap up and makes it seem worthwhile, which rarely ever happens. Like, yes, it actually elevated the first movie for me.
SPEAKER_04I even had to ask myself, I'm like, should I watch the first one again?
SPEAKER_06Like, was I like, yeah, it's like putting gouda cheese on, you know, craft mac and cheese. It's like, oh, this is really good now. This is great. No, but it it just, you know, and I'm not a big fan of musicals, and it's always that you know, the the thing that people have with musicals, why do people break into song? This movie, they broke into song for a reason. Everything made sense. Yeah, I had a little bit of trouble with the ending, but no, but the idea I did too. That that's his coping mechanism. And well, but but here's here's what I'm sorry, Alex.
SPEAKER_01Let me just go ahead. Let me just throw some shade on all the internet nerds out there flipping out that it was a musical. But the first movie did establish a lot of of his interpretive dance. We talked about it on our podcast, so it's not like it came out of left field, like we do all these stupid songs.
SPEAKER_06It's like, but the whole let's not forget he was constantly dancing in the context, in the context, yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04Especially because of Harley, sorry, Lee, whatever.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, and being in this soul-crushing environment for two years where it's just the day, the Kafka-esque daily routine of just soul-numbing activity.
SPEAKER_04Also, the fact that he meets her in the place where you know, the sing the music room where they're singing. So that's I mean, it's that's just a natural.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually stunned. So, Joe, you're no stranger to the musical scene. What'd you think? Give us your give us your thoughts. Both movies.
SPEAKER_00Uh I'm afraid this is gonna sound like maybe a boring podcast because I'm I'm kind of in agreement with what everybody has been saying.
SPEAKER_04Um Let's hate society, Joe.
SPEAKER_01Joe, Joe, surely let's let's let's then let's use you. So a comic book fan, or at least passing comic book fan, why are they so hateful? Why did everybody hate Joker? Folie adieu. What why? Like, I don't understand it.
SPEAKER_00I I'm not entirely sure, honestly. Um, I mean, I there's probably a very I mean there's a different intersection between people who like musicals and comic book fans. You know, you're gonna find some people that you know hit those two middle Venn diagram intersection, but not everybody will. And I think that I think also like there's a certain element of like when we get to the I mean, when we get to the end of the movie, like I think people were sort of expecting, oh, Arthur Fleck is like, he he's supposed to be like the Joker. And it's like, well, maybe not, actually. Maybe he just kind of started this movement and now it's all these other people who are gonna be copycat artists essentially. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um well I heard did you hear Tarantino talk and Roger Avery talk about how the guy who kills him? Sorry, spoilers everybody, if you haven't seen it and probably haven't since nobody saw it. Uh the guy who kills him at the end is supposed to be Heath Ledger's Joker, which I didn't hear. You know, fan theories, I uh I don't I'm like, what? But apparently they're on the inside track since they're in Hollywood.
SPEAKER_00I I I think they probably left it open for a reason. Yeah. And I don't think it I don't I don't think the story benefits from believing that or or not really. I thought for sure.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I do have a quick question about that. Because I I guess I didn't notice it after after Arthur Fleck succumbs to his wounds, spoiler alert, yes, but we all know it now. But that just before the camera goes to black, the assailant starts carving his face. His face. He's carving the smile into his face. I didn't notice that. I mean, yeah, but okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01I mean if you're gonna get if it's you're gonna say it's Heath Ledger's joker, how about getting a guy who looks like Heath Ledger? You know, like I am fat. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04I didn't know I don't think it mattered.
SPEAKER_01Uh honest I do. Like if you're gonna add that little if it's supposed to be an Easter egg, I didn't, I didn't, it sailed right over my head.
SPEAKER_04What I'm saying is I I agree with Joe. I don't think it benefited from it being oh sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I sure sure. But if it's supposed to be supposed to be the next joker, gonna fight. Yeah, like yeah, exactly. I just thought, oh, that's I would how would I know that unless I was told unless I you know wasn't told it? Yeah. So that's all. Anyway, Craven. What do you think on Craven?
SPEAKER_03Oh long pause. Face rubbed.
SPEAKER_00Uh Craven was kind of like they took a black and white comic book, threw it into a blender, and then tried to put the pieces together and missed half of them somehow. Good, excellent analysis. A lot of great analogies. Exactly. I mean, it was just it was a mess, and it was I don't I don't usually notice things like editing, and I think that like if editing is done really well, oftentimes it kind of drifts into the background a little bit. This was like where was how why did they chop this up the way that they did? Like, I mean, it was a I mean, there were so many things that were just terrible about it. Anyways, Craven was awful from beginning to end, and I actually liked Joker a lot more than I was expecting because I also did not care for the first one and was also confused as to why so many people like seemed to just all adore it. Um I was just I I didn't understand it. I'm like, this is not a good comic book movie, and it's also not really a good mental health movie. Right, really a good anything kind of movie. So I was sort of I was perplexed why people adored it so much. Yeah, that's one I actually liked. It's it it feels overly theatrical, which is much more to me at least, in keeping with the character of the Joker.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he becomes the joker. That scene in the courtroom where he adopts the Foghorn Legorn voice, he is a Joker now. Like, okay, yeah, finally the which is what I didn't like the first movie. Like, he just seems like a sad sack jerk, you know, and it didn't, I didn't like that movie. And again, it is a nearly scene for scene ripoff of King of Comedy. I mean, it just like and even this movie does have a holdover with Harley Quinn. She seems like Masha in King of Comedy still. Yeah, but inspiration more than just completely like it's not scene for scene, she just feels like yeah, she but she feels like from the same cut from the same cloth, the rich psycho.
SPEAKER_04Definitely the world, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Who who's a hanger-on? The rich psycho hanger-on. So that they just felt the same, but uh we'll get into performance. But Lady Gaga just stole the show. I mean, he's like, Oh, like I don't, I'm not I'm a passing fan. Roseanne loves her. I'm like, eh, uh, fine. She uh star is born. I'm like, okay, she held her own, fine. And then uh the Gucci, she was the best thing about it, which is like saying the best, you know, the best spam at the spam. The spam tasting, you know, picnic. Like, wow, this spam's really good.
SPEAKER_04You know, like except you're talking just briefly, let me just defend Lady Gaga. Uh, we are talking about a film that had Al Pacino and Jeremy Irons, and you know, like Jared Leto, Jared, and my personal favorite, the incomparable Jared Leto.
SPEAKER_06Speaking of Joker, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, which is another thing we need to get into, just like that sack is shit.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, don't hold back, Rosin. I he's listening, he's listening.
SPEAKER_02He's right now, he's crying. Jared, you've ruined every movie I've ever, every movie franchise I've ever loved. Thanks for nothing.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, um, so yeah, uh I yeah, this just blew me away. Like, holy cow, she is a legitimate psycho. This isn't a woman playing crazy, she's disturbingly crazy.
SPEAKER_06And see, that's the key to her performance. She doesn't play the crazy, no, she's I mean, she's got those great eyes to begin with, for sure.
SPEAKER_04The great eyes. When she says, when he tells her that immediately tells her that he killed his mother, and she was like, I should have done that, you know, just her voice and just her like I'm like, what the hell?
SPEAKER_02Already it's awesome.
SPEAKER_06You know, she must have watched a countless video of psychopath associopaths being interviewed and really latched on because you know, usually you you you know, that's that's got all the potential for a lot of scene chewing, and we don't get it, and she didn't have to, didn't give one. She was bone chill, boon chillingly brightening.
SPEAKER_01She was well, her best scene is when she breaks up with them. Like, man, that was a good. I was like, this movie's great. No, she breaks up with them because hey, she's just a big star fucker, and she that was like, wow, this is a really good movie.
SPEAKER_06I cannot believe she was uh nominated for a Razzie.
SPEAKER_04Give me nominated, one won a Razzie.
SPEAKER_06That's just crazy.
SPEAKER_04But I can't even believe it.
SPEAKER_06And I hope that someday they they look back and say, boy, were we off on that one. May they watch in hell. They're always off.
SPEAKER_04We just yeah, well, even when even in that Donnie and Marie scene, even her like dancing was cracking me up. Like everything she did, scene for that scene was the bee gees, the bee gees have never sound better.
SPEAKER_06And I love that song. But those, and here's another nice surprise. I mean, I know that Joaquin Phoenix insisted on singing as Johnny Cash, and it was sure. He's got a pretty decent voice. He's not a crooner, but he holds his own. Well, I like it. I'm gonna disagree with you. I'm gonna disagree with you. You can disagree with me, but it kind of reminds me of Bill Murray, where Bill Murray, you know, he has an untrained voice, but he can kind of hit certain notes. I'm not saying he's at that level, but I I I liked his singing. I like the duet.
SPEAKER_01Of course he had to sing, but but even his sort of off-key, weird voice works.
SPEAKER_06But it was in this movie, never, but it was never like caterwalling.
SPEAKER_04It was still like no, you know, she is at half power most of the time, which I really liked.
SPEAKER_01Like they're both he was better in this far by far than in the first movie I thought. Well, he was. In the first movie, I was impressed. The first movie I thought he was great. Like, wow, he he's doing a great job in this movie about not the Joker. That's I think that was my assessment on the last podcast about the Joker. I said, Yeah, he's doing everything awesome, he's amazing. He doesn't seem like the Joker. So in this movie, he finally evolves. And I kind of like, well, maybe it's worth it that the first movie was what it was. Because now, because of Harley Quinn, he evolves into being the actor. Actual joker. And I thought that was that was cool.
SPEAKER_04And we get to ask, like, actually, pretty interesting questions because of both of them, just in terms of like, okay, rarely you can't have a hero movie without a villain, and yet you have this villain movie without a hero. I'm just like, okay, that's pretty compelling. That has been.
SPEAKER_01I didn't like that notion at first. I didn't like it, but in this movie, I'm like, this that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04In Joker, I thought it was a tiresome slog. In this, I was just like, okay, we're asking actually pretty important questions.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_04And they're bringing it out of each other and us as the audience. And I'm like, okay, I really don't feel like what's the director's name? Todd? Todd Phillips.
SPEAKER_06Todd Phillips.
SPEAKER_04Todd Phillips. Uh, I don't know if he's like a genius or not, but I saw the hangover, so I think not. But on the other hand, with this, it's just like, okay, what do we as the audience then need from the Joker that the first one gave us and the second one does not, even though the second one gives us the Joker?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I can't answer that. Okay. I because I still okay. Maybe they give it lucky. And does anybody still buy it? Because I didn't buy it the first time around, and I don't, I still didn't buy it in the I don't buy the movement. I don't buy 1981 New York people rallying. It's he's not Bernard Goetz. He's a psycho dressed as a clown sad sack. Okay, Bernard Goetz was a loser, but there was something he was rallying against the crime on the subway. The Joker, they made in the first movie, they made up this sort of oh, the the the yuppies that was just to me anachronistic. So I didn't buy that. And then I still don't buy this movement around him. Like, well, he killed his mother. He he just he killed people who didn't deserve to die. Maybe let's just say pretend everybody hated Murray Franklin. Fine. But everybody else was just pathetic deaths that he he inflicted on everybody, you know, just because he was just a psycho. So I just still don't buy that aspect about both.
SPEAKER_04Okay, but they kept it. I think it would have been more effective had Harley Quinn just sort of been one of the lone voices, uh, who was who thought that this wow, this is really something. Just yeah, please that would have been more powerful, I think. Um is so Gen Z-ish to me.
SPEAKER_01There's a word for it. I I've looked it up, I just just stumbled on it by dumb luck. I already forgot it. It starts with an H. But there's a symptom. Joe, do you know this? A send a symptom that women, typically women, have for falling in love with serial killers. It's uh there's a psychological name for it.
SPEAKER_04Awesome, yeah. So but it happens so often that there's an actual term for it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But so they like occasionally it can happen with men with women, but rarely, it's usually women with serial killers.
SPEAKER_04Well, also because rarely are women serial killers, but anyway, for sure.
SPEAKER_01But uh, like so there's this thing. So that is fine. I can I understand that anyway. They're serial killers often get like Bundy and all, they all get love letters and all that. So I I just don't buy the whole movement thing. And even when he escapes from prison, you don't need the scene with the two guys, you know. I just felt like that was just wow, it's a holdover from the first movie. I still don't buy it.
SPEAKER_04For the for the most part, though, I thought it was dealt with okay-ish compared to the first one where I hated all those guys. I did. I don't know. I I felt like it was much more in the background and much more about um Arthur's reaction to that. And just Arthur's reaction to I don't know, to himself.
SPEAKER_01It could still be a showboat with her, though.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, I know.
SPEAKER_01You don't need the people rooting for him.
SPEAKER_04No, you're right. I think it would work better even if it was just solely her, because that seems to be more of what it is anyway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Anyway.
SPEAKER_01Well, anyway. Um Joe, you're you're pondering deep in thought, you're a psychologist. What do you think? Do you buy the movement, you don't?
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, I I I I think I buy it more in this second movie than I did in the first. Um, the first, it didn't like the whole idea of it didn't make any sense. I I can at least I'm at least willing to suspend a little bit of disbelief within the context of this world to say, like, okay, they they put out some sort of a you know, a movie documentary thing that apparently caught the world by fire. They all thought it was super interesting and cool. And like, even if you know, these uh I mean, I I don't know that they're gonna get the number of people who actually agree with him out there, but certainly they're gonna be people who think, oh, this is interesting. I want to make sure to see this guy, you know. How fascinating. I wonder what kind of life he lived, or I can kind of understand where he's coming from a little bit. So I I can kind of get some of that, but I think that one of the other kind of key sort of theme themes that the movie kind of plays with is this idea of like the danger of the cult of personality. Yeah, you know, um and but that's swiped right from King of Comedy. Well, I mean, and the idea that like once you reach a certain point in your fame, it ceases to be about you anymore. And it's kind of like if you're not careful with how you're kind of fanning the flames of any sort of thing like that, it can quickly grow out beyond that. And I think that I mean, again, looking at the end of the movie, I mean, I think Joker first is like, oh yeah, cool. Like everybody loves this, loves, loves me and stuff, realizes that harm can be done and kind of tries to stop it a little bit, but it's kind of too late. The trains are off the tracks, it's it's gone.
SPEAKER_01Um, it occurs to me that just just thinking about what you're saying, it occurs to me that the cult of personality would have now again. This goes back to the first movie, but even still, they could have expanded on Murray Franklin, Robert De Niro's character, in this film, just to show what a ridiculous swine he was. So let's say he was Morton Downey Jr., or what who's the other guy? Who's the other guy who had the show or Jerry Springer? So if they had so they established him as a beloved Johnny Carson type in the first movie. So there wasn't any sort of public sense of we hate this guy. So that wasn't established. So that was another failure in the first movie. They could have at least carried over where you get the public outrage.
SPEAKER_04And he's I still don't think it would have worked. Like in early 80s New York, what you would have gotten is fringy weirdos on his side. He wouldn't have gotten like this sort of occupy Wall Street kind of vibe that you got with right.
SPEAKER_01No, it was anachronistic and completely undermotivated. And I'm just trying to help the movie out for this idea of this, the the cult of personality that people would have gotten behind it. But there's I still in this in this film, I'm still going, I don't buy this. I don't buy that people are rallying behind him.
SPEAKER_04But I do think, I guess one thing aspect that I like of engaging with that is that even his lawyer, everyone doesn't seem to understand that he's not two different people. These are just a variety of aspects of his personality, right? Like they can't integrate that because the truth is this is begotten from weakness and fear and patheticness. And and his best self, I mean, what do we say about his best self is a murderer when when your best self is essentially your worst self, right? And and why do we love that about villains? Like, I always think it's interesting, you know, even like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, why are we so interested in this idea of just duality as opposed to you know people, you know that the best that you know, the kid who threw the chair at me and told me to go fuck myself is also the child of you know two addicts and he can't tie his own shoes. Like, you know, it's a a spectrum, and and I do think Joker Folly Doo does like engage with that, and that people are unwilling to see it, even his his great love.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I loved the Catherine Keener stuff. I was actually great, that's I was actually shocked how good it was. Like me too. So I was expecting okay, this is okay, Katherine Keener, her again, droning along, you know.
SPEAKER_02And I just thought that was like pretty subtle, weird stuff.
SPEAKER_01I just thought this is good, kissing her and all that. And yeah, I just thought this is actually a really good movie about a on a lawyer who's completely unmatched, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I thought, okay, this is good, and she's and wanting this to be true about him, and it's just not. I thought that was super interesting. Both aspects aren't really true.
SPEAKER_01Totally interesting when he comes to terms with it, which when he gets the snot beat out of him, which I thought was pretty good. Like, this is an interesting film, yeah. You know, like this isn't just this dumb movie like the first one was.
SPEAKER_06I mean, yeah, it's you know, the the the beating, and then it caps off with the uh the death of of one of his um adorers, the kid, Ricky or whatever, you know, and all we see we we never see it, which is fine. It's just all seen in Arthur's eyes as he he lays there merely comatose, right?
SPEAKER_01Helpless, and but he does come to a really realization.
SPEAKER_06It's still not the power, no, he still can't beat the prison system just with and it's funny that he does have the the the you know, because of that, the largest character arc. Like, I just don't want to be the joker anymore. You know, I just want to be happy. I want to I want a girlfriend, I want to be happy for once I finally have somebody that's a figment or even somebody who's there that I have to fantasize about, uh you know, like uh Zazie Beats or however you say your name, yeah, yeah, the actress, where there's real contact here. There's real um there's some kind of connection, even if she is psychotic, even if she well, and they atoned.
SPEAKER_04I think the Zazie Beats character I hated in the first one.
SPEAKER_01And this one in this movie, she almost redeemed the whole character. This is just a perfectly placed scene which gave perspective to the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02And I thought I totally agree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think the little the little person guy, what's his name? I put Gary Puddles. Yeah, I didn't love his scene. I thought he went a little too far.
SPEAKER_04I I thought his scene okay, but can we say at the beginning at least what King Phoenix constantly making fun of his name?
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, I know, but the I you know the crying on his part seemed a little I would have cut, I personally, speaking of editing, I would have cut him all the tears. I just would have made a little less business. And again, I I you know he could have one explosion. I did like when he goes, Come on, Gary, I like you.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that very joker-ish to me?
SPEAKER_01Very much like the Joker, and I'm like, okay, this is good, this is good. I just felt that he they played the tears too too hard for a guy who's in court.
SPEAKER_04The fact that they completely like fixed the Zazy Beats character. I really will take the Gary Puddles lasting a little too long.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was a I have to say, and I don't like courtroom dramas typically. This was a pretty good courtroom drama. Yeah, yeah. This is I I guess they're mad. The the the the kids out there with the comic books, they're mad that it just didn't have a plot. Is that it? Or didn't have a tangible, we're gonna rob Fort Knox, you and me. Was that I guess that's what they're pissed off about, right?
SPEAKER_04I I really don't even know what what's the word on the street? I didn't have to go back.
SPEAKER_01No, I have to go back and look at Nerd Rock and all these guys, why they hated it so much. I guess they thought it was woke or something. I I didn't know it wasn't. It was like they think it's boring. I again the first one I thought was boring. Like, do we have to wallow in this misery? Why didn't he just pee on himself or poop in his hand and smear it on his face? And the movie was so depressing.
SPEAKER_04I actually thought that was coming.
SPEAKER_01You know, I just thought, okay, this is just a slog through insanity, but not a particularly again, plot-wise, it was just all over the map. And then this one, uh I do.
SPEAKER_04I I do think like with the musicals, with again, I Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga have this like super interesting and comfortable chemistry that I'm willing to watch. Like, I'm I was actually like excited by certain scenes they did. I liked, you know, um their dance on top of the building when she's wearing that white dress with the big moon. What are they doing? Anyway, all of it.
SPEAKER_01I just I thought well, my favorite was the Donovan Marie bit for 100%.
SPEAKER_04That was the best.
SPEAKER_01This is sizzling. These guys are great.
SPEAKER_04Sizzling. You got it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh the first joker had none of that, but I I don't want to look at it even in terms of the first joker. I want to look at it in terms of itself because I think it it almost grew into itself, and here it ends now. I mean, if we're talking about how bad could it be, I think the tragedy is now it's over. It it grew into an adult, and someone just shot it in the face. Like that's how it works.
SPEAKER_01That's why I was like, oh no, because now the part I was obviously just, you know, you want a happy ending. I was obviously thinking, okay, Harley's still gonna come back because the they can't live without that's their deal. They can't live without each other. Yeah, so you know, like she's like the and Tithus is a Batman, she's just the same as him, and he still can't live without her. And you know, it's like, well, yeah, she'll be back, and they're gonna go off on their madcap spree of of crimes all around the southwest, you know. But it's but yeah, they they just like what they just kill him, but on the other hand, it's true to the tone of the film.
SPEAKER_04So, in a way, I know that you Alex, you said you didn't like it either. I don't know, Joe, but I I didn't mind actually that he dies. I get this idea that Joker consciousness lives on, um, which I thought was actually fine. I'm fine with it. Watching it last night, I am fine with it.
SPEAKER_01Again, I I I do really wanted to see, I do really want to see Joker face off against Batman. You romantic sucker, you I want to see him against Batman. I mean, you know, what's the point of all it if he's not gonna face off against Batman?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think the problem there is that they they've already established, I mean, how old is Arthur supposed to be in here? Like four.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but they never but what's is the bat the Joker's age? We've never, you know, isn't he such a man of mystery? But we're assuming that when Batman is fighting fisticuffs with Joker, but he was Joker never hold on, whoa, whoa, there fella. He he's always punching a guy who likes being punched. You know, Joker's thing is he's not a fighter, he just he's just a bastard who he he enjoys the whole thing of it, you know. So Batman's punches are does it doesn't matter because Batman's so much tougher than he is. It doesn't matter, though. He's just gonna do what he's gonna do, you know. So it doesn't matter about the age, you know, it's not like Joker ever represents a physical threat to Batman.
SPEAKER_04So you had said earlier that Quentin Tarantino mentioned that it was like an F you and it was, you know, anti-conformist in a way. I'm like, okay, and I guess in denying everyone's expectations that this was finally where he starts his life of legitimate crime, maybe that's it. Of just like, no, this would just be the natural conclusion of a sad sack villain, a brief rise and an ultimate fall. So maybe in that way, it it could be seen as that. And honestly, if it had existed without the first one, I think I would think that's actually kind of cool. Um actually, I would. So I stand by that.
SPEAKER_01All right, I just want to shift gears a little bit so you wonder why we're talking about Craven and all this.
SPEAKER_06Sorry, yeah, oh yeah, that other movie.
SPEAKER_01But but before I even saw Joker Fully, uh I saw Craven and was so mad at uh the portrayal of Calypso that I I just freaked out. Roseanne got the full brunt of it, so I was furious. So I sort of brought in Joker just like, oh, what the hell? Let's just review Joker too, because who the hell would ever want to listen to a Craven the Hunter podcast? But I did want to rant about the very thing that Joker brought, which was the balls and the courage and the just clear-mindedness to have a codependent relationship. At its center, where I was saying, you know, the thing about Calypso that struck me immediately when I first hold on, everybody. I forgot that this comic book, which I was first introduced to Calypso in 1980.
SPEAKER_04Who did the art? Just wondered.
SPEAKER_01Oh, uh, it's a it's a hodgepodge of artists, actually. So it's uh so Alan Weiss is Daniel Neal is the writer, but here is Calypso first introduced to audiences or readers in 1980. So she's got the cornrows, she's got the disco pants, the strap-up high heels, and so she's urging Craven to fight Spider-Man and face his fears.
SPEAKER_04Okay, that's the picture I saw all over.
SPEAKER_01So here's this. He's confessing how he just can't beat him. Then Spider-Man does some daring do, and she says, You are oh, a coward, slapping him, and then there he is saying, You dare, I could crush you. And she says, Yes, you could. And then there he is, defeated right there. I can't do it. I can't do it. She talks him into it, she talks him into facing off Spider-Man. All right, and then later on, this is just this is again 10 years old, getting all I need to know about Calypso in one comic book. But here she is, here they are facing off. Look at her, look at there. Spider Man and and Craven are facing off. Wait, there it is, and there she is, just loving it, just loving the whole spectacle. Again, better than a fucking comic book written in 1979 or 1980. Like, you can't write the character back, and she's she's like like a scoop. Oh, she I'm a lawyer.
SPEAKER_00Like what she's always an investigative lawyer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, whatever the shit doesn't say one thing that makes her seem like a lawyer during that entire album.
SPEAKER_01So so JC Chander, I was rooting for you because of a most violent year. I thought, okay, well, this might be a good movie. All right, this might be a good movie. He made that, yeah. It's a good movie. It wasn't a great movie. The ultimate movie was just about a guy needing money.
SPEAKER_04Okay, but ambiance, character, talk about your your Utah texture. It's in that movie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's got a real New York. It's got a real New York feel. I thought maybe he'll bring that New York grit and it'll be a perfect Spider-Man movie. It'll have all this New York feel, and you know, him coming to New York, who knows? This movie was, and their relationship was like, what the hell? It's Scooby-Doo. I can't stop saying it. It was a Scooby-Doo relationship.
SPEAKER_06It was no spark, no, nothing.
SPEAKER_01Zero like, and again, and I who's the actress they were gonna cast, Rosane. You were telling me about it. I saw a picture of her final.
SPEAKER_04Turner Smith, yeah.
SPEAKER_01She looks like she would have been great. Yeah, you could have had Halle Berry for crying out loud with cornrose, and it would have worked because Zaren Taylor and Taylor Johnson likes them older, so it would have worked, and it will you could have had anybody but who they got. And what's her face? Ariana DeBose from West Side Story. Awful. You know why she's awful? She has no idea what she's doing in the movie. No, yeah, you know, you can just see it like what all you have to do is play a codependent voodoo bitch.
SPEAKER_06Oh my god, yeah. Jody Turner Smith. I mean, she would bring that newbie and vibe, right?
SPEAKER_01But like super fair, but here's JC Chander who wrote a decent crime story with fairly nuanced characters, and they're like, You're gonna write this Scooby-Doo crap? Shame on you again. Like, why would you even bother? Like, what I I would love to hear, I would love for somebody to sit down and tell me why this is such a clusterfuck that you can't even write a story about about a codependent Russian blowhard and an African voodoo woman, you know? It's like, come on, and then they spur each other on constantly. It's just I just was shocked. Like, right, what is this?
SPEAKER_04So I was mad about that, and I was like, any kind of galvanizing would be good because that I mean, there's none that I could tell, even Russell Crowe. I'm like, so you hate your dad because he put your mom away and because he's he hates that you both are just pussy ass bitches? Like, what what do we because here's the secret you are, and I hate you for the same reason.
SPEAKER_01Why they didn't just be why didn't they just de age? Come on, Aaron Taylor Johnson, he's young enough where he could have played high school, like you. Can still just like remove a few wrinkles. Why would they get that little wiener? You know, it just looks like they're just at the wiener camp. Hey, let's get two Russians are not wieners, right? Even when they look fay, they're pretty tough and wiry and killers.
SPEAKER_04You know, like this is I didn't buy those kids for Russians.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no, not at all. This was just awful. Like, this is awful. Direct. I just can't believe it was JC Chander who directed it. I just thought this looks like it was directed by some simpering hack who went straight from the Disney Channel to this project. I I just stunned. Looked terrible, the effects were terrible. Russell Crowe, I give it to Russell Crowe for committing. You know, he he seemed like, okay, he's he's doing what he has to do, but nobody else is, not even Alessander Naval. I mean, how the hell does he make sense of that stupid rhino? Again, it's like Dr. Doom. Joe, this is for you. Dr. Doom, we've talked about it. They can't get it right. The rhino, they can't get it right. First in the Amazing Spider-Man, he's got a mechanical suit. Now he's got the skin. Do the comics. Okay. And it's a suit. It's got a big visor on it, it's got a rhino horn, just like the comics. You punch it, it hurts your hand. You know, you can't like what is so hard about the rhino? It's a big suit.
SPEAKER_06Like they had to get they had to go the bane route, you know. It's stupid. Like, what the hell is this?
SPEAKER_04It just looks so rapid. And then the big reveal, you know, the biggest. What the fuck was that? I don't even know what route that was.
SPEAKER_01But it was like not interesting. Like, this doesn't look interesting. Yeah, there's nothing there. This is for the record.
SPEAKER_04The whole sorry, my voice just cracked, but the whole film didn't look good. I just couldn't believe how bad the film looked.
SPEAKER_01No, his little hideout in the middle of British Columbia. Like, yeah, sure, that's Russia. Ha, sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, little monkey gym in the middle of the middle of fucking Siberia.
SPEAKER_01He's living in this like glassy geodesic with lush Siberia, lush overgrown Siberia.
SPEAKER_04Come visit Siberia.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. You're gonna film it in Vaya.
SPEAKER_00Where you can see the uh African Cape Buffalo Rome.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly. He doesn't spend one minute in the jungle. Again, uh, they couldn't even get someone who was from Ghana or at least, you know, like a West Coast African country. I'm like, Audrey, Ariana DeBoes isn't she's Puerto Rican American.
SPEAKER_01How stupid.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, how where are people screaming about that? I'm screaming about it, it didn't work.
SPEAKER_01No, but he but but but let's we're not really getting into besides JC Chander, who really really shouldn't ever work again, except directing, you know, the latest Disney extravaganza, you know Hallmark High School Musical 7. There we go.
SPEAKER_06He'll have a long career in Hallmark.
SPEAKER_01But how you can take this look all the stuff that's already written for you and turn it into this. I don't know.
SPEAKER_06Again, that's why I'd love to sit around the table talk on this one, because it seems that the people that sat around making corporate decisions for this movie are the same people that shot down Joker Fanetwa.
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't know if they shot it down, right? I don't well, or just derided it or turned their back on it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's like, oh no, this is oh, this is too, you know, it's like well, nobody let's face it, nobody liked either, right?
SPEAKER_01So it's not like it's not a fair comparison. It's not like hook them, hook them this one succeeded. They both deserved well, I don't think no. One deserved to fail, one didn't. So the one that really failed, the truly failed shouldn't even have gotten released. I just think it it should have been shelved. It's so bad.
SPEAKER_06No, it doesn't have any agreement. It has it has been a lot of things. Straight to the cutout bin vibe. It does. Again, and again, a colossal, a colossal waste of talent. Well, I mean, it's like this vortex that exists that sucks these people in. And you know, hopefully Aaron Taylor Johnson will rise up and uh uh Alessandro blah blah um he's dying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And Russell Crowe won't affect them again, Alex. I don't think this will affect them because it's so forgettable. So nobody nobody's as mad as I am. But again, this these comics mean a lot to me.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's crazy that they didn't use any of that. So you could say about Joker Folio do that they they do build on her, at least interpret things that are already there in a variety of ways. They don't do shit like that with Craven, like not even, they don't bother even and again.
SPEAKER_01If you're going to lift Kraven to superstar status, when he look, let's face it, when he was created, he wasn't Russian, he was just Tarzan the eight man, Stanley, Stanley, I imagine Tarzan the eight man. So Stanley in my mind is Kirk Douglas, he's Popeye.
SPEAKER_06But here's the message the most dangerous animal is Spider-Man. Close enough, close enough, okay. Yes, yes. I mean, that's but that's what they do in this movie.
SPEAKER_01It was like they didn't even make Alex, they didn't even go that far. They didn't they didn't go far enough, but they don't go that far.
SPEAKER_06Why did why couldn't you leave at least giving us like uh you know uh a a naked prey vibe, you know, where yes, the greatest, uh, the most vicious hunter is man. Right. I mean, at least have something that moving on.
SPEAKER_04Well, and and both Calypso and and Craven at least like enjoying who they both are together fucking shit up. You don't even see that at all.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, they turned her they turned him into a good guy, which again, I don't even understand their world building anyway. Joe, thoughts, do you understand the world building with this? Who's he gonna face off against? Tom Holland? Like, how can he even face off? He's too nice.
SPEAKER_00I mean none of those the decisions they made made sense. Yeah. I mean, i if you're gonna take a character, why not try to adapt them like the way they are, you know, like the way the people like the character instead of trying to go in a completely different direction that makes zero sense. Why is he turned into this sort of nature activist when he's a big game hunter? Like his whole thing, like if you want to make a stand of him being like, oh, he's against guns, okay, fine, whatever. Like, sure, like, oh, this is a coward's weapon.
SPEAKER_01Like, that's not gonna watch when he shoots Spider-Man dead and buries him alive, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, I mean, they don't they don't have to show all of that, but I mean, like, you know, I mean, if if you wanted to try to have something like that, I would understand, like, you know, like, oh, you're trying to kill these bigger animals, but like I can, you know, defeat you can't. Even with my bare hands and stuff. Like, you know, like cool. Like that that's at least something interesting for the character. Here we go again, Joe.
SPEAKER_01Here we go again with this comic book. Somebody lets out all these animals, he gets mad at everybody for beating up on the he can paralyze this ape, and he does, but you know, the he's mad at them for not understanding the value of the animal. So that's that's his deal. He still hunts, still a little bit of a nature boy, but he's at least he's got this code, but he yeah, he's gonna kill them if he has to. So that they didn't even bring that into it. Like, again, they don't have time, they throw in way too many characters. They bring in the foreigner. I don't know why, Alex, you wouldn't know a thing about this, but or no, but they're just a he's an assassin in the comic books. He always sort of appears and kills people.
SPEAKER_06Oh, yeah. See, the the the the the the fella playing the foreigner in this movie, talk about generic blah bland.
SPEAKER_02He's a good actor, which is crazy because he is a really good actor.
SPEAKER_06That's no no no no, that's just it. It's what it's just uh the material they're given. It's just can't you go? You know, there's gotta be more to this. Can't why can't you know everything up to be half measures?
SPEAKER_04Again, I as you know, I really like Aaron Taylor Johnson, and I think he's he's a hundred percent could have been this like big, boastful anti-hero, which is what I thought that they would do with him, not whatever this was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Alex, I gotta, I gotta, I just I gotta shoot back on. I thought he just gave up. You could see him going, maybe in some meetings they took him down a notch and he just says, Oh, forget it. American accent, no crazy eyes, just solving crimes with with bland ass calypso. Like, what is this? Just what is this? And how are they setting up again? In the end, how are they setting up a villain movie? Like, what? And again, it's because they made money on Venom.
SPEAKER_04Venom.
SPEAKER_01So they're just saying, oh, they people like this anti-hero jazz. It doesn't. So how's he gonna do that?
SPEAKER_04It doesn't register as an anti-hero at all. It doesn't register as anything again. Talk about a movie that a hero movie that has so many villains. I don't even know what's happening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it's it's crap. Okay, so enough said. I just had to get it out there about the codependent thing. Uh I we're kind of doing it already, but let's just go down the list in terms of performance. Performance, performance. We've already talked about Lady Gaga. Joe, any more insights you wanted to get out there on her performance? No, I I thought I thought she was great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I thought it was the performance of the year from an actress. I just want to say that. And and and when I say that I like Lady Gaga, I don't love her pop music or anything like that. I really think she's a really interesting actress. She's got a good face, she's and she inhabits characters in a kind of interesting way. And this I thought was really good. The best.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's well, she was better than Joaquin, or yeah, she's better than Joaquin Phoenix, and he's damn good.
SPEAKER_04And he's great. He's still great. That's what's nice too. I'm just like, oh, Joaquin Phoenix is still great, and he's playing off of her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um yeah, the the confidence that he exuded when he's on stage singing with her looked so good. Like he's really he can just turn it on and off, too. Like he you can see how how natural he is at just doing what he has to do.
SPEAKER_04He's amazing. Like he can make himself ugly or good looking or confident or a free. I mean, he genuinely okay. He's a master.
SPEAKER_01If anybody should be playing a chameleon, it's him.
SPEAKER_04God, a fucking kid they had. Okay, they basically played the same role, gladiator too. Where uh anyway, don't even get me started. But I just Lady Gaga and Joaquin Phoenix forget about it. And again, the fact that they won that Razzie for worst duo just fills my heart with a car-burning rage.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. Bad. I hope it comes back to haunt them. I really do. I really do.
SPEAKER_01Alex, anything to add on this?
SPEAKER_06Uh, Brendan Gleason was uh delightful. I mean, because I wasn't expecting him, and in a role like this, you know, where at times he seemed somewhat sympathetic, but when he had to turn it on, he was a mean SOB.
SPEAKER_04I also forget he's like 85 feet tall. I don't, I don't think I realized that. He's a big guy.
SPEAKER_06Scary dude. I didn't really pay attention to Katherine Keener because I enjoyed her, but it's like, yeah, you know, this was a uh this was a gritty performance for her, and she was enjoyable, you know, and I love that. You know, when she has to when she has to just uh set him straight about let me tell you about your girlfriend. Let me tell you about she's she's that was my favorite. She's wealthy, she's from the upper west side, she's her father's still alive, he's this or that. He's a doctor.
SPEAKER_01That was my favorite scene in the next when he faces off with her about and behind the glass, and she's just lying her ass off. Oh, yeah. That's something everybody lies, and that was like this. That's when I was sold. I was like, this is a really good movie. Good performance.
SPEAKER_06It was a great setup, and and the way she plays it. Yes, she is brilliant.
SPEAKER_04That's a brilliant scene. Everybody, yeah.
SPEAKER_06And how many people exactly? Oh exactly. From from beginning to end, she was captivating and she was great. Yeah, and she really brought something to it, and a pox on those bastards at the golden razzies or whatever. The hell, you know, the people's in their favor.
SPEAKER_03People's golden razzies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in their favor. Hold on, hold on, before you get too mad. I'm not saying they gave Ariana Dubeau's worst supporting actress.
SPEAKER_06Okay, well, fine, good, good. Okay, but even even the Oscars will get something right on occasion, you know. So yeah, you know, uh, but but I don't understand. I mean, you know, it was like it was such an entirely different movie. It was such what a surprise. What a you know, don't you just love going into something without any expectation? Maybe you're writing on well, everybody seemed to hate this, and it's it's it's not what they said it was. It was like, oh my god, this is a work of art.
SPEAKER_04I love when that happens, and it's really rare, then that's true. It's a movie, it's a great movie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right, one thing I want to point out quickly, musically, they use the theme from the the the hunt for out October in the beginning of uh Craven the Hunter, the opening Russian anthem. I can tell you so familiar. My friend Siva, who's from Russia, I one time played it from in his car. I put in my Hunt for Out October CD by the great Basil Paladora. He goes, This is this is nonsense. This is done. So this is all gib gibberish. He goes, What do you what am I listening to? This is gibberish. They're not saying anything. It's just a collection of they do that with Latin all the time. Or and in uh Iron Man, they're all speaking Hindi and they're supposed to be speaking Arabic. These people are crazy stupid.
SPEAKER_04Right. So they couldn't even find a Russian song. There's no Russian actress.
SPEAKER_01There's 100% a Soviet animal.
SPEAKER_04Like, oh, but a Russian never sang.
SPEAKER_01As we all know, Russians never wrote any music.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, famously don't write music.
SPEAKER_01No, they there's no anthems by Russian composers. So you're using the hunt for freaking Red October. I'm like, I go, they're using the Trinity Cobra. So that's just how stupid they are. So anyway.
SPEAKER_06No argument there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I guess we we should talk a little bit about the direction. We sort of have, but I do think Todd Phillips, I didn't think much of him. I gotta say. I thought he was just a hack. He's no one. I don't know. I don't know what he what he's got next. We don't know, but this might be, you know. Is he gonna go retreating back into Hangover 4? You know, Harrison Ford would have. So, you know, it's sort of like uh a thing, like he's got he's got shellacked.
SPEAKER_04Um doubles down on this, or again, I feel bad because I'm just like, you didn't deserve it. You deserved great, great change.
SPEAKER_01He directed a great movie and he got slammed, and it's like, ah, that's too bad. Because I didn't think he had it in him, and he did, and he got shot down for it. That's that's just too bad. Yeah, um, JC Chander, can't wait to see your credits on Moesha, the new generation. Oh boy, but Moesha who won't be black, she'll be just gonna say Moesha, who's from Panama.
SPEAKER_04But um really fast, I do just want to say I love Russell Crowe more than ever, just because out of that burning tire fire of a mess, I was still like, well, Russell Crowe's giving a comic book movie performance, which I respect. And just because I've done Ben Kingsley, God bless you guys.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, God bless you check and commit, damn it. Yeah, no, he committed. I I feel the same as you. Like, you know what? Sometimes I don't like Russell Crowe, but I'm back on I'm back in his camp because he's got Cinderella Man and he's got he's got Craven the Hunter where he committed.
SPEAKER_03I disrespect, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And this little of all the terrible things, at least you can say, well, there was Russell Crowe.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. No, he he was entertaining. You're weak. You know, I liked all that. I can buy into that. Damn, Alex thoughts? Uh about what? About Russell Crowe's dominant.
SPEAKER_06I enjoyed him, okay. I mean, I think it's something a lot of us men can relate to. Look at you, you're you're dumb.
SPEAKER_04I think it's anyone who's ever had a dad. Come on.
SPEAKER_06You are crying. Yes, no, but um, yeah. No, that was a performance that did smack up effort and in a good way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. No, in the rest of the dead-eyed crew, at least, I'm like, oh.
SPEAKER_06And it's too bad again. Just I I don't know. Whatever, whoever created that uh atmosphere for that. Yeah, whatever that was. You know, I just you know, you're look like studios. You're getting up in the morning.
SPEAKER_01I would bet even if we talk, got JC Chander on our show, I think he would tell us the studios just clamped down on his ass and said, Yeah, you can't do that, you can't do that. Oh, make sure she's a lawyer because we don't want to enrage black women. And I think all over the place, it was just like like all these stupid studio, and again, I've seen them. I worked on a TV show. I've told you so I've you know, I saw the memos back in the 90s or no early 2000s when the the the the edict from the studios make sure she's not too black, and these we're talking about cartoon characters, mind you. But I've seen them, I know how they operate, they're morons, they never know how to make a movie. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_04What kind of moron wouldn't actually get a black actress? I can't get over that.
SPEAKER_01How about did you hear the hunt for out October in the beginning? I got you, I got you.
SPEAKER_04Moron uh choices from start to finish.
SPEAKER_01But no, it really is me like idiocracy. We are just gonna have these drooling idiots making movies constantly. Well, I thought in the other movies when they did that.
SPEAKER_06Pretty much to care whose ass it was.
SPEAKER_01Who's doing the party? Yeah, anyway. Anyway, so one win, one huge loss, but not a huge loss because who cares? No, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Definitely who cares. I do care.
SPEAKER_01Like, but hold on. We I am speaking to the quality of cinema. The quality of cinema is just going so far down, just generic pop entertainment. It's so bad. Hey, Joe, I have a question. I talked to you about this in the text, but do you honestly think now? I mean, I'm starting to believe it, and I thought it was just a sort of a hackneyed internet, you know, sort of axiom, which is do Marvel movies are Marvel movies television shows and DC movies are movies? Like they're cinema.
SPEAKER_00I would say that I think DC movies try harder to be cinema. I think they necessarily succeed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think but the thing is, even if you take Wonder Woman and all the movies that DC is Warner and DC has made, they stand out more as cinema than Marvel movies.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I I think we we did talk about this a little bit. And I think this is actually true for the comics, is that DC tries to aim at something more mythological and something that is like a deeper archetypal kind of struggle. Whereas Marvel has always been more like, let's have fun. Well, which is not a good idea. But see, they failed.
SPEAKER_01I think, but I I think they failed on on that level in bringing a reality. If if Marvel, look, I related to Marvel because it immediately jumped out as more real to me. Batman, as a little kid, when I think of Batman and Spider-Man as when I was a little kid, I had both. Batman was over my head, it just was just flat out over my head. Whereas Spider-Man, I could relate to the colors, the especially Steve Ditko, all that, and it it felt like a real lived-in world, and it still does. I still love it. Um, I just think the movies aren't even good at it attaining that. They haven't attained a reality that makes it worth watching. You know, they're just all of them. So I look at DC, and now looking at this, like, well, this is actual cinema, and I didn't think I'd ever say that about a Joker movie. That's all. So anyway, any thoughts on that, Alex, Roseanne? No.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's it's just funny to me in terms of DC, um, because you know, obviously I've always preferred Marvel, but I just as a as your kid sister being forced to read the comic books under pain of punishment. Um but I think the more the DC strives for this sort of Olympus, that weirdly they're attaining a more real tone to their films than Marvel is in trying to seem real and approachable.
SPEAKER_01I agree. That's I agree. There was new there was actual nuance in Joker Dude. For real. Yeah, I like I felt I did feel like this is a nuanced movie that I did not expect because the first one I thought wasn't so nuanced.
SPEAKER_04No, the second one, like actually demanded, yeah, not even close. Oh, I hate it.
SPEAKER_01Not even and even the mother was awful.
SPEAKER_04And even I hated her.
SPEAKER_01Even when they brought her up in the second movie, I'm like, eh, you bring me down with that whole mother stuff.
SPEAKER_04With the mother stuff, again, I felt the same with uh the Craven Sons. I was just like, ah, that bitch deserved to die. She was the worst. Uh, and not as a mom. I'm just like, this character is the worst.
SPEAKER_01Two on the nose.
SPEAKER_04She's way on the nose. Everything about that movie was two on the nose. But yeah, again, Joker 2. I was just like, sorry, fully ado. Uh was actually I think you're better off saying Joker 2.
SPEAKER_01You're offending the French. I can tell you're offending the French. See, I have an authentic French accent.
SPEAKER_04It's true.
SPEAKER_01Ado.
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry, everyone, French. Uh Joker 2 demanded things of me like that. I had to think about. And that's no Marvel movie has done that.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_04So I would recommend this movie. Even like obviously, I don't think our mother or father would watch it, but just for as much as we're all pulling for Italian lady gaga, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Alex, who would you recommend? Who would you recommend? I say cinema lovers only. I don't think, I think it's a very, very like niche taste, honestly. Obviously, the general public rejected it.
SPEAKER_04In French, it would be niche.
SPEAKER_01Niche, yes. The niche, sorry.
SPEAKER_04Again, I think in French that's called a poser.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just don't think if if the general public rejected it, though again, I was the that 12-year-old kid came out of bladder and are saying greatest movie I've ever seen. So maybe, maybe in 20 years people will catch up. Because we're like, we're we're on Mount Olympus. We get it. All those screwball idiots don't. Because we can say fall. Sort of.
SPEAKER_06We get credit for trying. I'm sorry. All I can think about is I don't know. Mythy Bookback.
SPEAKER_05I'll try.
SPEAKER_00You know, I don't know if we're on Mount Olympus. I think you're, you know, building a mountain out of a hill.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00Wow, well said. Well said.
SPEAKER_01Well said. Thank you, everybody, for a great conversation. I'll talk to you on the next one. Bye.
SPEAKER_05Take care.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening to Fabulous Film and Friends, Copyright 2025, a Bel Air Films production.