Fabulous Film & Friends
A podcast for the true cineaste. This podcast examines the impact great or memorable films have on us both personally and culturally. If you've ever bonded with someone or joined a lively discussion circle based on your love of cinema, this is the podcast for you.
Fabulous Film & Friends
Ep. 104 - The GREAT ITALIAN ODYSSEYS: Ulysses (1954) v. The Return (2024)
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We’re gargling out the taste of comic book fare on our 104th episode yet still swimming the turbulent oceans of their inspiration, the source of their epic power and mystery: Homer’s Odyssey!
Yes we’re going to compare and contrast two versions of the Odyssey as seen through the eyes of Italian filmmakers starting with 1954’s Ulysses directed by Mario Camerini and starring Kirk Douglas, Silvana Magano and Anthony Quinn up against 2024’s The Return directed by Uberto Pasolini and starring Ralph Fiennes, Juliette Binoche, Charlie Plummer and Marwan Kenzari.
My guests today are my two stodgy, nose-in-the air, advanced-degree holding, cohorts, kid sis and lit major Roseanne Caputi and Master Thespian, the mellifluous voice behind the most famous Hard Mountain Dew Code Red spot of all time, Gordon Alex Robertson!
Before we dig in, the synopses:
Ulysses (1954): A mythical adventure following the Greek hero Ulysses as he embarks on a perilous journey home after the Trojan War, encountering mythical creatures and divine beings before coming back to his wife Penelope.
The Return (2024) delves into the emotional journey of Odysseus returning to Ithaca after his long absence in the Trojan War, finding his kindome in ruins, a strained relationship between him and Penelope and his son Telemachus, and the challenges of reintegrating into family life after years of war and separation.
Which is the grandest telling of the classic poem?
Find out!
Watch the podcast on Youtube:
https://youtu.be/AkDJke7ldRo
And now it's time for fabulous filming friends. We are gargling out the taste of comic book fair on our 104th episode, yet still swimming in the turbulent oceans of their inspiration, the source of their epic power, the granddaddy of them all, Homer's Odyssey. Yes, we're going to compare and contrast two versions of the Odyssey as seen through the eyes of Italian filmmakers, starting with 1954's Ulysses, directed by Mario Camarini, and starring Kirk Douglas, Silvana Magano, and Anthony Quinn. Up against 2024's The Return, directed by Uberto Pasolini, and starring Rafe Fines, Juliet Bonos, Charlie Plummer, and Marwan Canzari. My guests today are my two stodgy nose-in-the-air advanced degree holding cohorts, Kid Sis and Lit Major Roseanne Caputi and Master Thespian, the mellifless voice behind the most famous hard mountain dude code red spot of all time, Gordon Alex Robertson. Alex, welcome and warm us up with a little snippet of the voice of Zeus, demanding that Kirk Douglas's Ulysses share some of that beguiling Cyclops goat cheese with the denizens of Mount Olympus. I hope you brought enough for everyone.
SPEAKER_00There, okay. That's it. I hope you brought enough for everyone. Mr. Stingy. Just for that, you don't get to go home. How's that? Okay. You know.
SPEAKER_02That was a pretty damn good Zeus. Whoa. It was. I just I was hoping for some of that sort of Zontar the Glowing Cabbage Echo that I had on my Mac. Or my microphone. Alright. Before we dig in, the synopsis. Or synopsis, since we're there's a variation here. Ulysses, a mythical adventure following the Greek hero Ulysses, as the Romans know him, as he embarks on a perilous journey home after the Trojan War, encountering mythical creatures and divine beings before coming back to his wife Penelope. Ah, the return delves into the emotional journey of Odysseus returning to Ithaca after his long absence from the Trojan War, finding his kingdom in ruins, a strained relationship between himself and Penelope, his son Telemachus, and the challenges of reintegrating to family life after years of war and separation. Alright, Roseanne Caputi, you big lit snob you. Which is the better film?
SPEAKER_03Um, The Return.
SPEAKER_02I disagree. Alex, what's the better film?
SPEAKER_01Oh boy. I was quite surprised by Ulysses.
SPEAKER_03Um it's that goat cheese.
SPEAKER_01Fistfuls of goat cheese. Fistful of goat cheese and insta uh uh fermenting grapes. Yeah. I've never seen a grape ferment so fast in my life. Uh I'm gonna go with the return, though. I have to, Gino. But I but I was surprised. You know, the first time I saw Ulysses, I think I was five. My mother had to wanted me to see it because, and all I remember was the Cyclops. And I think I had nightmares that night. My mother told me I woke up crying in the night, and I thought it might have been that or Kirk Douglas's acting.
SPEAKER_00I wanted more goat cheese.
SPEAKER_01Watching Kirk Douglas in dubbed form, I really uh enjoyed his performance. I thought, well, that's a rather understanding.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if I don't have to hear his voice, I'm actually in.
SPEAKER_01Oh Joe Fox.
SPEAKER_03He's better in Italian.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's better in Italian.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He fits Italians very well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he does.
SPEAKER_02He did. He did. If I didn't know him better, if it's a lot of people. So I saw Okay, let me jump in real quick. I liked Ulysses better. Um I I saw Ulysses as a 12-year-old on Channel 12 in from Boise, Idaho, and you know, in 1982 or 3 or something, from there on then. My brother and I were just cracking up because it was dubbed, and we naturally loved dubed movies. And so I heard the Kirk Douglas English dub with everybody else dubbed. So it was Ulysses, try this cheese. It's excellent. It's excellent. There's only Kirk Douglas could deliver it. Yes. And um, yeah, I I thought it was, of course, a joke and all that. But looking at it now, I and having watched The Return first, I quite enjoyed it. I I enjoyed the whole spectrum.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but quite enjoying it more than you more than the return. It's a better film than the return.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03How?
SPEAKER_02It's more colorful, it's more animated, it's more alive.
SPEAKER_01The return is yeah, but it in fairness, though, what I liked about the two movies is you know, you get I think of it as like folklore. Everyone has their version of it. Um, you know, this is based on the folklore of the Odyssey. And reading the synopsis on the original story, um Mr. Camerini took liberties with the storyline, which is fine. Um, but I do like the that that he went more for the fantastical spiritual elements, and the return is more of a just a human story. Um just that I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02I don't like humans. Well I I object to humans. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're talking about like cleansing your palate from superhero stuff, and obviously this is you know, this having a them having the roots and the Odyssey, but the Italians are nothing if not like emphasizing well, the first Italian, the second Italians are different, but uh then emphasizing the superhuman aspects of Odysseus. So basically you still need to do the same thing. I disagree.
SPEAKER_02I think it's more that it's not superhero crap. It's it's a man who's fulfilling his destiny as designed by the gods.
SPEAKER_03I thought it was more of that element, but the the return is uh addressing the spiritual aspect of what it is to be human, and the spiritual aspect of what it is to be wife, mother, son, warrior, father.
SPEAKER_02Like that's it's a deeper film, it's a much deeper film. It's a deeper film. I just don't think it's a better film.
SPEAKER_01I think it's one of the more effective, it and this is my take on it a much one of the more effective anti-war movies I've ever seen. Yeah, I agree. I'd agree with that. Because we don't get beat over the head with the message, we just see it in what Odysseus is going through.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you know that honestly, what Penelope what Penelope's going through. I would take this over coming home any day of the week, in terms of like the suffering that she's gone through and how she takes him to task.
SPEAKER_01Like when she Yeah, I even thought of the Hurt Locker. Coming home had a naked Bruce Durham. So I mean God is that anyway. I'm sorry about that. No, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02I just said I'm just at the end, Alex.
SPEAKER_03I had to see the point of Bruce Durham.
SPEAKER_02I sort of thought in my mind while I was watching of the hurt locker of a guy who can't deal with being back home. I I th I thought that like, oh yeah, it's kind of interesting, an interesting aspect. Um I I just I I liked so so for on my end, I think um the return reminded me of I keep uh sorry Roseanne, but I'm repeating myself from previous off-camera and off-mic conversations. But it reminded me of Unbreakable, a film that I didn't like until it was over. And I felt the same way of as the with the return. I when she says, give your father the bow, that's when I decided I like the movie, and that's at the very end of the film. Spoilers, everybody. Penelope knows it's uh Odysseus uh upon first meeting. So I thought, oh, this is cool. But I was I was fairly frustrated with the film watching it the first time through. So uh in terms of sheer enjoyment and epic filmmaking, I like the Ulysses better.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's really but I I don't think I'd put the return on that same platform. I mean it's it's a gorgeous movie. It is it's a gorgeous movie to look at, but it's also it's got a lot of uh you know, meat to the it it's it's a much simpler story in terms of well, yeah. It starts the arrival at Ithaca. It cuts out the gods completely.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's a quests, it cuts out Calypso, Circe, it cut cuts out Cyclops, all of that.
SPEAKER_01But what we do get, which I thought was really impactful, which is the idea of you know, I don't need to go into the details of what have I what I've done, but use your imagination. If you think she did no Penelope says, what have you done? And what does he say? He says he doesn't deny wordless, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That was a that was a powerful scene.
SPEAKER_03No, it really was no their scenes, and I really realize this, there's no like irritating cuts or anything. The scenes all sort of have these sort of long, languorous lives of their own, which I really liked. Like when he's with the swine herd and the camera, all of it I think has this really kind of lovely organic pacing. Yeah, and so I think because I liked that so much, and because I hadn't thought about Odysseus's story from that perspective, that's why I enjoyed it so much more.
SPEAKER_02Well, not having read the work, I thought it was a bit frustrating.
SPEAKER_03So I I didn't like it till you when you say that, and I I know what you mean, but because of the inaction or the inactivity on Odysseus.
SPEAKER_02It's like it's like Hamlet or something. It's like a guy who's not making up his mind.
SPEAKER_03It's not true. He's having the important conversations, he's making up his mind. He just he's having a difficult time.
SPEAKER_02Fair enough. I don't want him at a difficult time. I want him to kill people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_03Well, which he's like, but look at his face when he does kill people. I like that he doesn't feel triumphant. I like that it's not this hokey, like finally he's beating ass. I feel like it still is just like, okay, this is you know what the moment called for. The nurse is more psyched than anyone else. I love that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That she's just so happy that he's home and that hopefully things will go back to normal. And no one else is doing that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I good film. It's a very good film. Uh I have to go though with gut reactions. Gut reactions were still like a piece piecing it together. I said, Oh, that was a really good movie. But I did not love watching it.
SPEAKER_01Well, let me say this. I saw the movie twice, I saw the return twice. Because I uh the first time I saw it, maybe I wasn't in the right mode. And it just sort of, you know, that languorous feel of the movie wasn't what I was expecting. So I sort of tuned out. So I thought I'm gonna watch it a second time and give it a chance, be more engaged. And then it was a different movie, and it was like, okay, I like this movie. You know, now that I know what to expect, it's like this movie really does cut to the bone. Sure. In a way that's, you know, uh, and again, in such a beautiful, subtle way. There's, you know, you're not getting hit over the head with a cudgel on this one. No, for sure.
SPEAKER_03And also, okay, and then I have to say, and I'm not saying this like, well, if you had read the poem, but what did you expect?
SPEAKER_00Well, what did both of you expect?
SPEAKER_02What I expect stop spitting and monologuing Kirk Douglas, Armand Descante, cheese, I expected goes, Eric Roberts, Cyclops, I expected butt kicking, I expected love making, I expected an Italian like uh like fight fest or something. I expected bear skinned wrestling, I expected dirt clawed fights, I expected, I expected yo-yos, I expected slingshots. I expected an extravaganza.
SPEAKER_00Bill Murray in a toga.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, right. So this is not to mention him lifting a big rock and dropping it on one of those jerks' heads. Yes.
SPEAKER_03This isn't about then what's better, it's just about preferences. Like, because the The Return is a better film.
SPEAKER_02For sure. But only but hold on, hold on. I I don't like okay, everything's better in the in now, right? Essentially cinematography, acting, everything's better. But I look at it, I'm I'm sorry, I'm looking at it as a 1954 Italian epic. I really enjoy it.
SPEAKER_03I enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_02And I think it was good, I think for its day, it's and even today it held up as really good filmmaking.
SPEAKER_03I enjoyed the film. Yeah, and once I got past my own, you know, prejudices of like how shitty it does look. Yeah, Pen Kirk Douglas worked.
SPEAKER_02Well, it did not look shitty, it was a shitty print on Tubi.
SPEAKER_03It was a shitty print.
SPEAKER_02Which is what we expect from Tubi, but that's fine.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say Tubi, everything looks like it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Hey, my all my friends at Tubi, I know you that's the print you were given. Nobody has restored this film. For sure. But we love you as well. Where's Coppola and Scorsese?
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Where's Copola and Scorsese to restore this film? Because it deserves it. It deserves it. I know I agree with you.
SPEAKER_03I 100% enjoyed this film. I thought she was awesome. I loved her as both Penelope and Cersei.
SPEAKER_02And that was a really good sequence. No, no, it was.
SPEAKER_03I thought it was very Italian, super Italian. Again, all the mama's boys, all the the telema telemachus or telemachus, whatever stuff in the return is about like what it means to have had to have protected your son this whole time and what that means to let him be a man. The Italian version is straight just a mama's boy shit, which is fine.
SPEAKER_02They're both Italian versions, they're both Italian versions. I know. One's a co-production of England, France, Greece, and Italy. The other one's an American Pasolini version. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But when I say Pasolini, it seems not right because the Pasolini is, he's not the Pasolini. No, no, he's a Pasolini.
SPEAKER_02You know, he produced the full Monty, which is still like, what? Really? Well, that's right. He didn't.
SPEAKER_03He and Rachel Portman are like weird people.
SPEAKER_02It's like his all his posters say from the producer of the full. The big Monty, the Full Monty.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02It's funny. Anyway.
SPEAKER_01He wasn't even a filmmaker. I think he was uh in finance or something and wanted to get into movies, just persisted.
SPEAKER_02Well, this is by far of the films I've seen, and that's two of his, Full Monte and this, I guess. This is a really good, the much better film, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, let's not talk about the Full Monty. No, I'm not talking about the Full Monty.
SPEAKER_02I'm just talking about this. It was a very assured, I was actually surprised how good it was. Like, wow, this is then once it was all over, I'm like, that was very good filmmaking. It really wasn't story.
SPEAKER_03I read critics criticizing, you know, that he uses actors who, you know, are maybe unpolished or things like that. And I thought it added to the experience. I thought it was actually uh just some of the the nurse? No, I I loved the nurse. I thought she was super cool looking. Some of the guys, I guess. Yeah, but I thought they were all cool. I thought it was looking, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Nobody jumped out as wrong. But I did think it was basically a couple of blondies who shouldn't have been there. That was sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, but I get what they were, you know, going for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03A mishmash of weirdos trying to take over.
SPEAKER_02But um it had a Port City feel to it, for sure.
SPEAKER_03It did, for sure. Yeah. Um, I I do respect the 50s version for a 50s version of a film, I'll say this. And I hate being like, oh, of its time, but I'm like, it's a fairly decent um adaptation of the Odyssey, honestly. I think so.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Not not having read it. I just thought, well, I got this sense, I got the sense of the mythological spiritual aspect of the story. Whereas the other one is a definitely a much more human story, and it's a much smaller story, you know.
SPEAKER_03It is, and I think they're just two very specific aspects. Let me just say this.
SPEAKER_02We're not talking about these films, but I have been watching a lot of biblical epics lately, and of its time, of its of its sprawling, big-natured story, I think it's a pretty focused movie. That's all.
SPEAKER_03I agree. Um, and especially in terms of watching and I haven't been watching them as recently as you have, but just having watched them in my lifetime, certainly, I just think this is a compact, focused, well-done film. Yeah. And for all of its, you know, like cheese eating and grape snorkeling and gleeful rest gleeful, oily male wrestling.
SPEAKER_02I would say that it's not oily, sweaty. Sweaty. There's sweaty and dust, you know. The two sort of facets of Italian cinema, sweat and dust.
SPEAKER_03But I would say there's nothing, believe it or like honestly, I don't find that it's this egregious cheese fest.
SPEAKER_02Except for the go.
SPEAKER_03Except for the cheese. Except for the proper cheese.
SPEAKER_02What is that? Is that cheese or just powdered sugar? Who knows? I think it looks like powdered sugar. What do they eat?
SPEAKER_03What is that? But I I will say I I thought it was she's really cool. I do think it's really well done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um anyway.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, uh, of course, the the modern version is is deeper. It just is, I mean, Ray Fein's he shows up and he's deeper. You know, it's obviously that face is deep.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Forget it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_03Okay, if we're comparing face to face Kirk Douglas and Ray Fine, forget about it.
SPEAKER_02But Kirk Douglas, who I usually on a one man war and crusade against, I like him in this film. So I I liked his persona, I liked his, I like the whole vibe of him just so arrogantly, you know, he he does. There is a scene with him, you know, blaspheming against Neptune, and and he's cursed for it. And and I think that carries into the film that's sort of missing in the the return.
SPEAKER_03I don't find it to be, I don't know. Alex, do you think it's missing? I like not with all the.
SPEAKER_02Who am I? Darth Maul here? You're you're Darth Maul.
SPEAKER_03No, I'm asking because I w felt like I was talking to her.
SPEAKER_00Jar jar.
SPEAKER_03Um sorry.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, as we were, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02I just need a pair of horns. I'm Darth Maul.
SPEAKER_01I I but I think what I did enjoy about the the 1954 version is that it did a lot of the fill in the um blanks, so to speak, without going you know, because it is an epic, so you have to pick and choose. I mean, because we didn't have the you know, uh I I guess a key moment in his journey was uh his stay on the uh on the island with Calypso.
SPEAKER_03What Calypso but i again Well, first Circe and then Calypso. Odysseus is such a piece of shit that he actually goes to two different islands with two different women.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But I get when it's in literary form, it's one thing, you know, but it's it's I still get that that he is you know, that his arrogance, his pride, and one thing I really did like, uh I thought in a couple of effective scenes, the one where he's talking to Achilles and Ajax and Agamemnon, and that idea, and it kind of to me it really filled in. Why would he go in disguise when he sees Penelope? Is it out of fear from what he hears from Agamemnon? You know, I get home, there's my wife, I kiss her, she kills me. Sure.
SPEAKER_03Literally. But also, the other thing though is that well, I'm sorry, you lameos, but it he's constantly dressed as a beggar, and he's constantly doing things like this. So that's Odysseus, he's a trickster, he does all these things. So disguises are just part of his part of his guise, his Yeah, it's just part of who he is. And again, it's why.
SPEAKER_01But we do get that though, too, don't we, at the beginning of the movie when they sack Troy. And who is it, the the the the Cirus or whatever who places the It wasn't Zeus, it was a female character.
SPEAKER_04It's Athena.
SPEAKER_01Athena, doesn't she say, you know, I curse is upon your head. You will never return home, or you will be able to do it.
SPEAKER_03Well, Athena makes it so she can he can get home. So remember, Athena's taking his part the entire time.
SPEAKER_01But it's somebody that uh I I I'd have to look back, but so then it's not Athena, but it's not Athena, but you know, the the the curse, you know, it's it's laid down, it's set forth. It's like good luck getting home, you know. Sure.
SPEAKER_03I thought that was after he pissed off Neptune.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. So that was in the fight with that, and then that's the beginning of the film. Right. I'm sorry, if we're talking about the Italian or the Italian.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because Athena has to bargain for, I mean, in the poem, Athena has to bargain for his life to return after that. But back to the spirituality, uh, again, I feel like would there be a way to add Athena and the gods to the return without it seeming goofy.
SPEAKER_02No, I her her her um I mean it's more time, but there I think there was a lot of time spent on her her stitching or her weaving.
SPEAKER_03Weaving, but that's hugely important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I know. I'm not I'm not saying it's not important, but there could have been some uh you know whispers to Athena. I mean the gods don't play at all in the film whatsoever. Nobody mentions a god once, do they?
SPEAKER_03Again, I I just felt like that was a conscious choice to focus it on just the the human aspects solely.
SPEAKER_02And then it takes away from the culture.
SPEAKER_03That's what I I think I think you're I think that's true.
SPEAKER_02Um my Kevin Nealan smile.
SPEAKER_00Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03I think it could they could have used it, especially because you know they have her father dying, and we talked about this, and she could have you know she's going to have an altar to Athena because it's basically the patron saying, you know, she is the goddess essentially of their home. Um and I think you're right. But I also didn't mind that there wasn't that because I think, believe it or not, I think both films are pretty focused. Yeah, both pretty confident about what story they want to tell.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. There's a wasted moment in the Huberto Not in the return. If Casolini ever joins my podcast, I would ask him if he was influenced by the 54 version. And I bet you'd go C. That's a pretty good impersonation.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it though?
SPEAKER_02I have a feel for Italian. Hey, Formaggio.
SPEAKER_01Why no cheese, Mr. Pezzolini? Hey, my lactose in Torres. Okay, no cheese.
SPEAKER_03It's surprising. Again, I liked the conscious lack of food in the return. Everyone looks hungry. I like how small the pigs are. That island looks like shit.
SPEAKER_02Before we before we'll probably get into this, but like can we tip our hats to rave fines for looking like a badass? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say, as they put it, like an old rope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like just a ropey battery. That was a gold. He did it.
SPEAKER_02He did it.
SPEAKER_03He looked like a son of a big of war. We're used to Kirk Douglas and Spartacus and everything looking tough, right? And he looks good, fine. But Rafe Fines is just like, what in the hell? Like it is almost crazy. It's such a key. It's a testament to his acting.
SPEAKER_02It's but yeah, for sure. Because it's like, you know, he doesn't just look muscular, he looks dis deformed. Doesn't he? Didn't he look deformed? Yeah. Like he's wounded, like he looked, his whole body looked wounded. Wounded.
SPEAKER_01Just a physical, like maybe there was something ambiguous about it, but something very, yeah. I don't know what it was.
SPEAKER_03He's strong and he knows how to fight, but there are times like when he's climbing up, you know, when they're running to get to uh telemachus away, like he still has weaknesses, and I think because of these old wounds, and he portrays that just physically, no one ever says anything even about it. No, that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02That's a that's a really no it was a good movie, good movie, for sure. I'm just I can't help but if I enjoy it.
SPEAKER_01A great commitment to the role, yeah. Yeah, no doubt.
SPEAKER_03No, I I really think so. And for the record, I was just reviewing the Odyssey, and of course, the nurse really does recognize him from the scar.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that was a nice scene. That was a good scene.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I do like both movies had the Argo scene, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Some variations. But the obvious the the the the Ray Fine's version was better, obviously.
SPEAKER_01Well, it is because I mean come on, he can't. And that his the dog waits is sort of second in command.
SPEAKER_02He is he he's is he in the the the poem, Roseanne? The Italian actor or whoever who is his sort of goat keeper's second in command.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, all of that. He goes to he's the guy. Okay, like he's the guy Telemachus or Telemachus Trust, he's Eumanius or whatever. Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Okay. Well, he did a that was a that was a nice scene when he recognized him because uh when Argo recognizes him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Again, I think the Greeks are good original populists.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, really good moments in in the the the 2024 version for sure.
SPEAKER_03Um and again, like moments that stick in my head.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Uh well have we finished the sort of the grand meaning of it all, or should we do we launch into performance? What what what's the vibe here? What do you want to do, Alex? It's your show, man. No, man. I I don't I don't want to I don't want to skip any important sort of philosophical meandering here.
SPEAKER_03Uh well uh what is the grand meaning here? Again, I think. What are the bigger questions?
SPEAKER_01What else are what what other questions are there? Don't get lost on the way home, okay? You know, ask and don't stop being a guy and have the courage to ask for directions. That's what it is. You know, it's like see, and if it was a woman, she'd be home in no time because she can you tell me how to get to Ithaca?
SPEAKER_03Odysseus does nothing but ask questions. Uh anyway. The wrong ones. I yeah, maybe. I will say the 50s version really does have the spirit of it. And that's why another reason why I like the return, the has the spirit of the original poem. Whereas that's why I like the return better. Because rarely do I see things, Shakespeare, whatever, where you have a modern telling of a story that genuinely looks at it from a new perspective without it being stupid, annoying, and agenda-driven, as opposed to just something beautiful and interesting about humans. And and that's what I respect so much about the return. And and that's why as much fun and you know, as well done as the 50s Italian version is. I I think 2024's version turned out to be again, my 2024 list of best films is all retroactive. Right.
SPEAKER_02Unfortunately, but that film wasn't again that that wasn't fair because we didn't get a chance to see that film. If it's 2024, it says 2024.
SPEAKER_03That's it.
SPEAKER_02But that's that's just like film festival jazz. That's just like Wildcat, honestly. Because in my opinion, can anyone see it or talk about it?
SPEAKER_03Like, can anyone know?
SPEAKER_02Not that I know of. No.
SPEAKER_01No, and because like when about the only thing was talking about his body transformation. Yeah. That was it. Sure. That's how I find out about it. Then I hear from Gino, so it's okay.
SPEAKER_03When are they talking about his body transformation? I mean, just because his dedication is.
SPEAKER_02I gave Alex the full report.
SPEAKER_03No, I mean, like what? Was he in men's fitness? I can't believe Ray Fines would be like, No, it was on Yahoo.
SPEAKER_01Yahoo! Um, you know, Yahoo News stream, you know. And it was also in uh an edition of uh uh dirty and oily.
SPEAKER_00There is no sweaty. Sweaty and oily and oily. Sweaty and oily.
SPEAKER_02Sweaty and dusty.
SPEAKER_03You guys have had subscriptions since it's been started. Oh, Steve Reeves.
SPEAKER_02I've got a life, I've got a lifetime of sweaty and dusty.
SPEAKER_03Anyway, it's all I wanted to add about the greater meaning. That rarely do I see an update that's like so completely interesting. And so uh the ball's in your court, Christopher Nolan. I can't imagine he's gonna do something that's not irritating, but that's one woman's opinion. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I think it'll be a big deal. Avoid the mullet for Matt. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Avoid the mullet. I think there'll be moments of brilliance, and that's about it. Yeah, maybe sandwich between long, just or what are we watching here?
SPEAKER_02Well, this will be have to be like uh the the forthcoming um megalopolis re relook, because we'll probably have to add um uh Christopher Nolan's to the pile when it comes out. Do a retrospective with uh now updated with Christopher Nolan. Uh because it just seems like, yeah, I can't imagine Christopher Nolan succeeding when he of course I'm the lone voice, or we're the lone voices in the woods on this one when he failed so miserably with Oppenheimer. I just can't imagine him handling this material very well. But anyway.
SPEAKER_03Well, he can't handle Batman for the most part. Again, it'll be the Odyssey without Odysseus in it.
SPEAKER_01Well, the problem, yeah. I don't know. Let's let's let's not even bother it. I don't know. I don't know. It's gonna feel like it's gonna feel like one of those 70s epic films like an Erwin Allen movie, uh Cast of Thousands. You know, that's that's what it feels like.
SPEAKER_03That's the only reason I bring it up, is just because the return is such a surprise in terms of storytelling. Yeah, and it just takes this opportunity to tell this incredibly interesting human story based on the Odyssey, which is based on the Odyssey, and I don't think it deviates from the original story.
SPEAKER_01It just It doesn't, and that's what's so interesting.
SPEAKER_03Yes, still, I think it's still a great commentary. Yeah, how would he person when he talks about we couldn't we couldn't defeat Troy, so we had to destroy it, and then we quenched the the flames and blood, or I'm like you know, whatever that scene. I was just like, that's good shit, man.
SPEAKER_01But that was a really good thing. But even the 54 version sort of skirts that issue toward the end when uh Penelope runs upstairs and she's praying, Give me the husband that I have. Yeah, give me the husband that I remembered. And he is covered in blood, but he washes, you know. I love the scene of her washing the blood off because it is a bonding moment. It is, you know, you know what? We will be in this together. We we we we will commiserate.
SPEAKER_03And I love when she says, and then we'll be friends again.
SPEAKER_01We'll be friends again, yes.
SPEAKER_02But let's jump back to the 50s version. Having seen The Return First and noting that as well, that's interesting. I doubt that's part of my in my mind. I'm thinking, I doubt that's part of the poem. And then thinking in the 50s version, she's gonna be so happy. I was like, wait, this this does delve into this idea of he's a new person and he's he's a killer. And I thought, oh, even the 50s version covers that. So I thought both get credit. Obviously, the return was much handled in a much more mature way, but it's still there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so let's give well the elements are still there too. Even even Kirk Douglas's dumb face yells, I've let's look forward to the future together, you know, or whatever at the end. But the idea still of just like they do have to create a new relationship.
SPEAKER_01Well, one thing that the two movies it is there. Yeah, one thing that the two movies don't do. I mean, they could have, but I think thank goodness they didn't go further into the violence because from what I understand in the original story, Telemachus, once they've dispatched of the suitors, he kills the maids.
SPEAKER_03I mean, he kills anyone that was but anyone who slept who betrayed or slept with the black.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, so we don't get that. I mean it's a hella bloodbath. I mean, we do get, you know, we do get that that sense of, you know, that they're not reliable. I think there's the what what is it? There's a scene in the uh the 54 version where the nurse is whipping that one beating her, you know, beating her, and it's an effect, you know, and get out, be gone, you know. So you do get that. Yeah. That it is it's um it's a house in chaos. In both versions, in their own way.
SPEAKER_03It's I think in both in the return, it's really quiet, but you see them, you know, sleeping with those dudes and having sex with them. Interesting, that sex in the return, sorry, just really fast, takes place in all these dark shadows and corners.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not explodative, it's no it's effective and it makes sense.
SPEAKER_03You get the idea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like okay, okay, this is what's going on. Your own house. You have no control.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that used to be her own house. Yeah, right. Can I say something?
SPEAKER_01Can I just say something? Is it me or does Juliet Benoit just get more beautiful with age? Oh my god. Holy cow. I mean, I remember the first time I saw her in The Unbearable Lightness of Being, but now, even now, it's like, wow. You know, age could not wither her.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, let me light my my name-dropping showbiz phony cigar.
SPEAKER_01That's right, here we go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I worked with the lovely and talented Miss Benoche. No, she she was great. She uh I worked with her on the film B season for all my loyal listeners, and we did a day of B-roll, and she was couldn't have been more game, where she was like, we were doing like second unit shooting all over Oakland, and she couldn't have been nicer and cooler, and she seems like the cool French woman who who's game for anything, and I was completely impressed with her performance in this. She really holds her own, and she's dealing with Ray Fines doing some spectacular work. Yeah, and I didn't expect I thought, okay, she's gonna be sidelined as sort of the the long that was my feeling just based on my remembrance of my impressions of the 54 version from seeing as a 12-year-old.
SPEAKER_03Which is not true, but still true.
SPEAKER_02And I didn't again, I was just thinking of Kirk Douglas back then. I didn't I the thing was way over my head, honestly. So anyway, this time I was just thinking, okay, but Juliet Binos be sidelined and Ray Feinzel do all the snarling and yelling and spitting. But no, she had a huge part and was great. Really especially the horror of what he does with the arrow, you know, or the bow and arrow. It's like she that was really great acting on her part, you know, and she sells it. It doesn't seem like, oh no, I just can't do it because I'm the girl. She does it because she's in emotionally invested in in what what was almost to be because of because of uh Odysseus, you know, because of his, you know, it's sort of at at root his psychosis and his insanity. So I thought that was a really well done scene.
SPEAKER_03And also her, when she watching that scene again, I know I said this, but when she really does realize it's Odysseus when in that first scene where they're talking and she's genuinely struggling, you can see her throat moving between anger and crying. And when she's asking him, like, oh, should I get married? What do you think? And she's talking about how her son hates her, and I'm just like, that's serious, like that's again, you always say, like, because I'm this big feminist or whatever. I don't care if women are wives and moms, I just don't want them to be sidelined and boring. And that's a perfect example of just like this is an equal part, it's an equal part. Even the swine herd, telemachus, her, and Odysseus having these different experiences of what this war did to everybody. For sure. For sure. Um, anyway, why can't I think of the Italian actress's name? Mangano?
SPEAKER_01Silvano Mangano? Silvano Mangano.
SPEAKER_03I think she is doing good work too. Let me just I know we're not talking for so sorry if we we need to get into focus, but anyway.
SPEAKER_01I just not just a pretty face.
SPEAKER_03No, she's not, she's really strong.
SPEAKER_02I I personally liked her better as Cersei. I thought that was really she was really creepy. She was really cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but just a great a shout out to Juliet Benoche's face that still moves. Yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Like she's still has wrinkles and well again, French like for some reason French women, they they just they're just that way they they're just that way, they don't age.
SPEAKER_03She looks she I agree.
SPEAKER_02I it's the wine and cheese. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_01She is more beautiful than ever, though.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I is I'm not gonna go that far. I mean, I just remember more fresh-faced and younger, but I would say in her maturity, she looks fantastic. She does.
SPEAKER_03But can I say this? I watching the film, I was really thinking, you know, I'm maybe I am sick of just, and I don't. There's a a handsomeness with people as they age because Rafe finds face, I mean, it does look like an old tree. Yeah. But there's still such a character about it that I'm just like, I think he's as handsome as ever.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking about this because he really is this sort of like focal point in in the most interesting way when I think about this movie. Think about where he was with Schindler's list when he first burst on the scene, and that and that was a great performance, the best performance in the movie. And think about that to where he is now. And it's like, yeah, he without without saying a word, he's acting his ass off. You bet just showing up physically naked, he's acting his ass off. Like, this is an it's a tremendous performance for sure. I can't, I don't even know why I I think I like the Kirk Douglas version better, but it just sticks out as me as like this complete thing, whereas I don't know what, but I don't know. I I'll I have to work on this. I have to see it again, I guess, because I've only seen it once.
SPEAKER_03I would say twice helps. I would honestly and I liked it the first time too. But twice helps.
SPEAKER_01Again, but the the second time was like, okay, it uh it was like a well-aged cheese or wine.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's like, oh now I get it. Oh yes! Mamma mia, what was I missing?
SPEAKER_03But it was a I thought it uh went faster too. I didn't think the first time it was slower, but I do think expectation might be a part of it. But oh for sure.
SPEAKER_02I think it's everything to do with how I viewed that movie. Look, I saw the preview, I saw Buff Ray Finds, I was like, oh, cool, I want to see that. Like a a real lusty action adventure about the the Odyssey. Not at all. Yeah, not at all.
SPEAKER_01But you know, in in in in typical Italian fashion, I think of like um you know, the the spaghetti westerns, it's like they're violent, but the violence takes forever to get to. Yeah, they're like those slow meandering scenes, and then the violence just happens. Boom! That's true. That's true. And it shocks you.
SPEAKER_02And the violence, even when they're running up the hill, when he finally cuts loose and saves Telemachus, that violence wasn't. I remember I said to my wife, oh good, they treat a death like a death. You know, because when he kills those guys in who are in pursuit of him, the first, the first group who are gonna kill, that was not just, oh, he's badass. He's literally, he's literally murdering two men, you know, and you feel that murder, and that's rare, that's very rare in film.
SPEAKER_03Well, and also what you do is that I'm sorry, it's really endemic to Odysseus because you see him pick up that thing knowing how he's gonna approach this fight. Not that he loves it and he's this big badass, but just that he is such a warrior and a veteran, it just comes so naturally. And even when he's slitting people's throats, the fact that he just cuts the one artery. It's not this big, stupid, dramatic thing. He just does it with economy. You never see that in movies.
SPEAKER_02I, you know, we're gonna get into the technical aspects, but I do wonder how much uh how much control Ray Fienes had as an executive producer. I would be very curious. This is where we have to get better and get better guests. Not that you guys are great, but I I have to I have to I'd want to know like how much control did you have? Because I I feel Rafe Fines' taste in this film.
SPEAKER_03You know? I well, I certainly think it's possible. I wish Rafe and I were closer.
SPEAKER_02But it just feels like an actor's movie in a sense. Yeah. You know, like all the decisions.
SPEAKER_01Here's a guy like but he never but but but he's never intrusive. That's the difference, though. It's like when it is a pet project for an actor or an actress, it becomes so obvious. This is a guy that I think really respects the material, respects the people that he's with. Seems to respect the director. I mean, there are. He respects the director, he does his job, yeah. And yeah. Uh I mean he's just so present. I think that's the the the victory of his performance, is that he's not chewing the scenes. He's not you know, it's far from it.
SPEAKER_00Look at me, look at me. No far from it, no far from it.
SPEAKER_03He's hiding from most of the scenes.
SPEAKER_02You're so drawn. I'm almost like one of the suitors wanting to kick him. He's such a sort of like in the corners, strange presence, you know.
SPEAKER_01You know, whereas a Kirk Douglas is the type that is that sort of scene chewer. It does work, though, and he doesn't go too far. You know, he doesn't. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_03Like usually, don't you feel like in Spartacist he does?
SPEAKER_02It's hard to know with the Italian dub. I don't know. That's the thing. Yeah. That's why I say energy is better in Italian. I will say this the energy of the dub works at on a level that that seems perfect for the film that we're watching. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03The dub was pretty good, honestly. I was like, this isn't, you know, this isn't Bill Back to Bill Murray and a Toga. That's not that's not this film. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01Even watching the uh Antonos scenes, um Antonos, am I saying his name right? Antonos and Penelope, it's really well done. Yeah. And and I love it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Anthony Quinn is also hey is awesome.
SPEAKER_02He's no I would say he restrained Anthony Quinn, honestly.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say he's no stranger to scenery chewing.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I promise you, I will check it out.
SPEAKER_03Okay, all right, the other guy who's playing there is also really. Cool.
SPEAKER_01And a very different performan performance. Very. But still, both worked well for me. I mean, that's how to do that.
SPEAKER_02All right, Gino. Take the ball. Again, it's I'm I'm not gonna pick it up. Take the cheese, Gino, take the cheese. I'm not gonna pick Kirk Douglas over again. I I enjoyed Kirk Douglas a lot more than I thought. Like I was just I just felt happy watching Ulysses.
SPEAKER_03Kirk Douglas is what you wanted.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay, it played into what I wanted, and I love the spear throwing and the telemacus, you wiener! Come on, that's that's Italian movies in a nutshell. Dance, telemacus, dance! But I I Ray Feines obviously is the better actor. Um I just enjoyed Kirk Douglas as a presence, as a godly, sort of infused with the spirit of the gods, I en I enjoyed his presence. Um, but yeah, obviously Ray Fein's by far the better performance, you know. Uh obviously, what do I ask you? Like, who's better? I mean, I I don't know what to ask.
SPEAKER_03Well, no, I I will say this is my is it possible that this is the only Kirk Douglas performance that I kind of like? Like, well, I like the bad and the beautiful I've never seen that, but he I haven't seen that.
SPEAKER_01Uh for me, it's in harm's way, even though he's not the lead, because he plays such a scoundrel.
SPEAKER_02So obviously Rafe Feines wins. Uh Sylvana Magano versus Juliet Benoche. I mean, it's who do I like? Who do I who do I like better? I kind of like I don't know. I uh soft spot for Juliet Benoche having sat in a car with her. I don't know. She's I don't know. I obviously a more modern and more accomplished performance, but I like Silvana Magano a lot, especially when she's Cersei, which gave it a depth that she doesn't have in the return.
SPEAKER_03She brings so she brought way more fire than I thought she would bring. She brought way more presence, and I thought again, she would be sidelined and she was much more interesting, and I think that's squarely on her, Mangano. Um But Julia Pinoch, what a what a beautiful, lovely performance.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's just too beautiful, and again, she and Ray Finds together that's not competing, it's truly just responding to each other. It's just a uh beautiful couple of performances.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So we're gonna talk about uh Charlie Plummer versus We're gonna have to the young Italian kid.
SPEAKER_03They're both such wangs. They picked both films, both Italian directors.
SPEAKER_02I'm going with the Italian kid. I liked him better.
SPEAKER_03Is he a better wiener though?
SPEAKER_02No, but he I I guess I was relieved. He is a wiener. I like that he recognized Ulysses and I didn't have to deal with that trope, you know, of come on, he's your fucking dad, or he's your husband. Why are we questioning this?
SPEAKER_03Wait a second. You're be oh my gosh. Again, I thought Telemachus had nothing but valid arguments against Odysseus.
SPEAKER_02No, no, fine, fine. But again, I like that he just sort of realized it was his father without me having to suffer through that.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's basically a non-performance. He's just a bug, he has like bug eyes like our dad and just like stands there.
SPEAKER_02I got bug eyes like our dad.
SPEAKER_03I know. Covered in glasses, though.
SPEAKER_02God, if it weren't for glasses, I would have never gotten married if it wasn't for these glasses.
SPEAKER_03Are you kidding? If it wasn't for glasses, I would look exactly like that poor kid playing Telemachus. But anyway.
SPEAKER_02Good-looking kid. You're going, you're too hard on him.
SPEAKER_03I I just thought it was a non- it was fine. It was whatever. Charlie Plummer. I didn't realize he was a kid actor. I didn't know that. I I had to look him up because I didn't know who I didn't know who he was from a can of paint. But I thought he was perfectly fine.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02So Anthony Quinn versus what was his name? Marwan Kanzari. Right. Who played whose claim to flame fame is he played. Flame. Claim to fame as he played Jafar and then Bill Smith Aladdin. Well, come on, I was thinking, I was like, I've seen this guy. I've seen this guy. What crappy film have I seen this guy?
SPEAKER_03Obviously, this is why racism is lame. Because obviously, this actor, I was telling Raphael when we saw Mr. Far, I'm like, you know, this guy is good. He's always stuck in these piece of shit parts. He's in Black Adam.
SPEAKER_02Did you know? Did you know I was in Black Adam? I was like, I could write Black Adam, but I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_03No, I've seen him in a few things. And I just like next time I want him to be the romantic lead.
SPEAKER_01Because he's in Black Adam. Of course. Ishmael's uh yeah. Yeah. But Muslim at the beginning of the film.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, whatever. Again, this guy's like international, doesn't he speak like Danish or you know, something like that? Yeah, he's Dan.
SPEAKER_01Apparently he's Danish born. So but you would know. But okay. So maybe, maybe. Roseanne, you know, we'll come back to this in a year. That this movie will give him the boost that he needed. I'm hoping for something. Somebody will say, oh, he's more than just a token. The guy has the guy has uh because now that great moment when right before Telemachus Charlie Plummer offs him, um what the that little monologue he has with Penelope, oh you know, it it it's what you wanted to be saying. Is this what you wanted?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I wouldn't have I would have never left you. I never would have put his head down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I never would have left you.
SPEAKER_03And I love when she opens the door for him and his face literally like contorts for a second and he doesn't go in there and he's just like, I wish I'd never met you. Like he brings a lot to that part, plus he's a piece of shit who does want to kill her son and has all these suck you sucky guys, you know, ruining things. So I thought he was great. Anthony Quinn is good, he's super cool. Yeah, you know, he's he was wearing that outfit, he's his hair is making it happen.
SPEAKER_02But no, but beyond beyond his looks, he he I mean Anthony Quinn had a subtle little uh playing the good guy when he's actually the swine. And I thought that he did a good job with that.
SPEAKER_03No, I thought he I was actually surprised.
SPEAKER_02I thought he was ham acting acting all over the place. Yeah, Zorba. I thought it was Mia Zorba acting for sure.
SPEAKER_03No, he was really good. I just I again I liked the other role better, and I thought he was really good.
SPEAKER_02He's a little bit more time given to that character for sure.
SPEAKER_03Um and and the fact that Penelope's no angel. I mean, she is manipulating him, and she is stringing him along.
SPEAKER_01No little human strain, just you know, it's been 20 years since I've had the you know the embrace of my husband with his ropey arms.
SPEAKER_03Yep. But it's there, and uh it he brings out interesting things in her. So I'm just like that isn't that's a performance that's interesting enough to where it brings certain uh elements to life. And I so I like him. God, what's his name again?
SPEAKER_01I'm such a uh Marwin and Zari. I hope I'm saying it right. If you're listening to this, Mr. Uh Kenzari, I apologize. But we uh we're giving you a glowing endorsement. Yes. We're waiting for that movie that will put you over the top as a romantic lead, as an international man of mystery. Better than Jafar. And he probably could play an American. I mean, he does speak good English. He probably could pop it with an American accent. Yeah, I think the guy is uh I wanna I want to hire him as a terrorist. That too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you know he'd be good. I have a terrorist part for you. Which I'm sure.
SPEAKER_03I just feel sad for his like really sensitive looking face that he's been hearing that for the last 20 years.
SPEAKER_02I'm like, ah, you ever considered playing Jafar?
SPEAKER_00That's a new one on me.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Ah, these poor actors. Uh cinematography, and a note of either in the cinematography. I thought, again, cinematography in the 50s was grand and of its era. It's you know, you're gonna see some shadow, you're gonna see some extra shadows. You're gonna see again, such a muddy print, so who can judge? Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_03I can't even tell. Like, and in terms of like the return.
SPEAKER_02The return has an interesting color palette, it kind of a goldish red, right? Am I wrong?
SPEAKER_03Was it no a lot of gold, which I like juxtapose, of course, with how you know, like the film felt bloody, it had a bloody tint. That was yeah, even the blood on the dirt, that you can really see the texture of the dirt. Yeah. Remember that part? And it's like pumping out.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, this is even one of the final scenes. Well, that it actually occurs twice, the blood in the water.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's that that's an important, yeah. No, it does.
SPEAKER_03That's definitely like a recurring. But also, I loved all of the the fire glow being the light.
SPEAKER_02And so I those scenes when she's walking by all the humpin' and pumping, beautifully lit. I I was really impressed. Like this, yeah, this is eerie and haunting and still of an era feels like I'm in ancient Greece. So I I was very impressed by the simulator. Who's the simulator?
SPEAKER_01Alex, quick. It's so a Romanian gentleman who I mean this is like the the first thing sort of out of his hold on.
SPEAKER_00Alright, here we go.
SPEAKER_01Um, and he's uh I think he's Romanian. I was looking it up.
SPEAKER_02Um it's a beautiful look.
SPEAKER_01I mean that's now that's something that I do lock into is the look. You know, sometimes it's music, but more often than not, it's the look. It's it's just something about light and shadow, you know. Why do we react to the thing?
SPEAKER_02One might say sculpting with light.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that sort of thing. You know, exactly, Mr. Smartass.
SPEAKER_03But you have you have enough interesting faces in that film. I mean, surely you have interesting faces in Ulysses, no doubt about it. But the way that the light is hitting them because of the way they're doing that makes it even it really does.
SPEAKER_02This is where this is where the stored version would really help Ulysses to to properly judge it. Because I did like the lighting and the effects work and all of it in the world.
SPEAKER_03I thought the effects were actually great. I was totally in the world.
SPEAKER_02And I like the I like the the Cyclops scene. I thought it was pretty decent. It didn't look like oh, it's good for a fakey 50s movie. I thought this is a function.
SPEAKER_01I actually thought it was pretty well done. Yeah, well, even even the sirens, there was something because we don't really see the sirens. Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_03I thought that turned out cool. Again, I thought the director made really cool choices, honestly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, surprising for a movie made during that time. It really took its subject matter seriously.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, it definitely did. No, I I think this viewing took this film for me from a joke and a laugh to a oh, this is a seriously good film. Yeah. That that's I thought was that's why I was sort of, you know, not to say it's a better film than the return, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it and thought it was a worthwhile film. That's all.
SPEAKER_03I I was similarly surprised, but in all honesty, I was surprised by the return. Yeah. Well, sure. So I thought both films, it's very interesting that both films are surpr a surprising take on something that we've all grown up with our entire lives.
SPEAKER_02But that's that's where I again me through osmosis, you know, since fine.
SPEAKER_03But just but from being alive and being, you know, like formed by European or Western civilization.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, the other thing, too, is the return, like Wildcat, one of those movies that Joe's goes goes under the radar. It's like, you know, all this talk about we need better quality movies. Well, they're there. You're just digging hard.
SPEAKER_03They're 100% there.
SPEAKER_01You know, and movies that take everything seriously and make the right choices, not the obvious choices. Uh you know, the right people for the right job. And there it is. Why don't we talk about that? Oh, again, we'll have to remember this.
SPEAKER_02You know, this goes back. Should we we do a mid-year re like re uh look back, or what's the word I need, Roseanne? So retrospect. Retrospective or you know, we just sort of what's the word? Redo, I guess, for lack of a better word, is of of the the best of 2024. Revision for sure. Revision there. That's the geez Louise. Revision, yes.
SPEAKER_03Uh, I feel like it's warranted, is because honestly, since well, I wasn't on that one, right? No, because I couldn't even think of movies that I liked.
SPEAKER_02Well, there was at the time we hadn't seen them, you know. I hadn't we had I hadn't seen Joker 2, I hadn't seen uh the return. I I didn't know the return existed until this year. So it's not even fair. I saw the ad on like Paramount Plus or something, and I'm like, oh, I'd like to see that, you know.
SPEAKER_03So But I think it's it's valid what Alex is saying. Like these movies are out there. I do feel like it should be our job to find them more.
SPEAKER_02I mean truly. You know, it's it's for now. It's now it's a streaming game. So now it it's there's such a plethora of things to choose from. You know, now it's it is hard, and then the what's in the theater is just garbage all the time. You know. Yep. So that's we are dealing with that too. So anyway.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I was gonna say, is it more challenging? I don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_02We we have I don't think it's ever been I think it's the same. I think I always catch the better films over time because I always look it's I I fully admit it, I'm always out to see blockbusters, you know. But I but in in the returns, in my the defense of me, the return was not marketed at all. I had no idea it was in the theaters.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's a fact.
SPEAKER_02Like I had no idea it was in the theaters. I just didn't even think didn't even know about it until I saw uh like on an ad, you know.
SPEAKER_03Even the when I finally, you know, looked up the New York Times review, it's clearly written by their like second banana, and it's only like five paragraphs long. Like this isn't a big this didn't get much attention. They loved it, but they did, they did. Yeah. Weird.
SPEAKER_02It's so weird. They just there's just no money behind it.
SPEAKER_03That's it.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's so strange because it's what did they make it for?
SPEAKER_0320 million dollars? That's like 90s money, like yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and it's it's probably made three million uh if that. Right, if that it's like a huge loss, and it's a really great film, and I'm sure we need to dig it out when we do uh Christopher Nolan's, as we said, so it's just like well and I feel bad for this director if he's not you know getting if he's gonna be a good thing.
SPEAKER_03Well, he's got that full Monty money and he got probably Rachel Portman at a discount, but I uh yeah, poor thing. Yeah, but I just feel bad. I feel bad that they again there are these people who are who are making beautiful things, and that's just well for some reason it feels more heartbreaking than ever, anyway.
SPEAKER_02But I I don't think that's different from any other time period. But I think there's always great movies that nobody notices and you know, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_03I just feel sad just because of the just level of you know, like Marvel horse shit or you know, whatever. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Once upon a time, there's pretty woman and teenage circles that were getting attention.
SPEAKER_03You've never been more right.
SPEAKER_01Anyway. But we have to wait until 2026 for the uh Nolan version.
SPEAKER_02It's just around the corner, Alex. Right.
SPEAKER_03Well, do we talk directors then? Italian versus Italian? I feel like they're both doing good work.
SPEAKER_02They both do good work. Pasolini has the edge on subtlety and uh what's his face? Uh I want to say Johnny Camereri. Camerini Paperetti. Camerini.
SPEAKER_00Johnny Pavarotti. Umni Camerari!
SPEAKER_02Johnny Camareri Camerini has the edge on epic, like mythic. Sword and sandal, yes, the big thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I was gonna say lusty font.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_04Arriva Derci Arriva Derci.
SPEAKER_01All right, bye. Bye.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to Fabulous Film and Friends, Copyright 2025, a Bel Air Films production.