Ep. #109 - 2025 SUMMER BLOCKBUSTER BATTLE: Superman v. The Fantastic Four: First Steps

As promised, this week on episode #109 of "Fabulous Film & Friends we’re going to weigh in on the two big ticket super hero extravaganzas from the Summer of 2025:  James Gunn’s Superman starring David Corenswet, Rachel Brosnahan, Skyler Gisando, Wendell Pierce, Edi Gathegi, Nathan Fillion, Isabela Merced, Sara Sampaio and Nicholas Hoult up against The Fantastic Four: First Steps directed by Matt Shakman and starring Pedro Pascal, Vanessa Kirby, Ebon Moss Bachrach, Joseph Quinn, Julia Garner and Ralph Ineson.

Returning for yet another daringly detailed deep dive into the world of fantastical four colored fantasies is nephew to a comic bookstore Kingpin, author, teacher and hypnotherapist, Joe Field.

Before we blast off into the Ultra-Negative Zone, the synopses:

In 2025’s Superman, it is 3 years into his mission and Earth’s Champion, The Man of Steel has met his match in Lex Luthor who causes a distraction with a giant monster and breaks into Superman’s secret Fortress of Solitude where he translates a message from Superman’s parents in which they instruct their son Kal El –Superman’s Kryptonian name-- to take over earth and spread his seed. Using this jarringly awkward info to turn public opinion against our hero, Luthor has also made a clone of Superman called Ultraman who continually batters and beats the Man of Steel into submission. On top of that, Luthor has a Pocket Universe where he jails his enemies including his ex-girlfriends. And Lex has Ultraman place Superman in a cage with another a super powered being named Metamorpho who can weaken Superman by turning his hands into Kryptonite. Ultimately, Luthor’s cruelty overwhelms Metamorpho who helps Superman escape the pocket universe but it in doing so, the unstable dimensional rift threatens to swallow Earth. It is only with the help of scrappy reporter Lois Lane and a team of heroes called The Justice Gang that Superman that is able to beat Ultraman, Luthor and close the rift. There’s also some political stuff going on with two made up countries going to War because of Luthor’s manipulations.

In The Fantastic Four: First Steps it has been four years since Reed Richards, Sue Storm, her brother Johnny and Ben Grimm were transformed by cosmic rays into the world’s protectors, super stretchy genius Mr. Fantastic, The Invisible Woman, The Human Torch and the rock man known as The Thing who are biggest celebrities on the planet. The exciting news that team leaders Reed Richards and Sue Storm are expecting their first child is put on the back burner by the arrival of the Silver Surfer the herald of the planet eating Celestial known as Galactus. Galactus tells the Fantastic Four that he will spare Earth in exchange for their yet unborn child, but that his too high a price to pay. With the public opinion against them, and world watching nervously, the team springs into action and devises a incredible plan to teleport planet earth into the far reaches of space. But then the Surfer and Galactus arrive and put the kabosh on the plan so the FF amends the plan to send Galactus himself into the far reaches of space, which seemed like the better strategy to begin with. 

So which movie was dumber and more suitable for booger eating six year olds? 

Find out!

Watch to the video podcast on Youtube:

https://youtu.be/cZCszsepEVM 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:01

And now it's time for Fabulous Filmin' Friends. As promised, this week on Fabulous Filmin' Friends episode 109, we're going to weigh in on the two big ticket superhero extravaganzas from the summer of 2025. James Gunn Superman, starring David Cornsweat, Rachel Brosnahan, Skylar Gazondo, Wendell Pierce, Edie Gathagi, Nathan Fillion, Isabella Merced, Sarah Sampaio, and Nicholas Holt. Up against Fantastic Four First Steps, directed by Matt Shackman and starring Pedro Pascal, Vanessa Kirby, Ebon Mosk Bachrock, Joseph Quinn, Julia Garner, and Ralph Inison. Returning for yet another daringly detailed deep dive into the world of Fantastical Four Colored Fantasies is nephew to a comic book store kingpin and author, teacher, and hypnotherapist in his own right, Joe Field. Welcome back, Joe.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Any uh quips, uh limericks, jokes, anything, anything to enhance our listening and viewing experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Only thing I have to say is Excelsior.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Alright. Good enough. Before we blast off into the ultra-negative zone, the synopsis. Synopses, I should say. In 2025, Superman, it is three years into his mission, and Earth's champion, the Man of Steel, has met his match in Lex Luthor, who causes a distraction with a giant monster or Kaiju and breaks into Superman's secret fortress of solitude, where he translates a message from Superman's parents in which they instruct their son Kalel, Superman's Kryptonian name, to take over Earth and spread his deed. Using this jarringly awkward info to turn public opinion against our hero, Luther has also made a clone of Superman called Ultraman, who continually batters and beats the man of stealing the submission. On top of that, Luther has a pocket universe where he jails his enemies, including his ex-girlfriend. And Lex has Ultraman plays Superman in a cage with another superpowered being named Metamorpho, who can weaken Superman by turning his hands into Cryptophag. Ultimately, Luther's cruelty overwhelms Metamorpho, who helps Superman escape the Pocket Universe, but in doing so, the unstable dimensional Rift threatens to swallow Earth. It is only with the help of Scrappy Reporter Lois Lane and the team of heroes called the Justice Gang that Superman is able to beat Ultraman, Luther, and close the Rift. There's also some political stuff going on with two made-up countries going to war because of Luther's manipulations. In Fantastic Four First Steps, it has been four years since Reed Richards, Sue Storm, her brother Johnny, and Ben Grimm were transformed by cosmic rays into the world's protectors, Super Stretchy, Genius, Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, the Human Torch, and the Rock Man known as the Thing, who are the biggest celebrities on the planet. The exciting news that team leaders Reed Richards and Sue Storm are expecting their first child is put on the back burner by the arrival of the Silver Surfer, the herald of the planet-eating celestial known as Galactus. Galactus tells the Fantastic Four that he will spare Earth in exchange for their yet unborn child. But that is too high a price to pay. With public opinion against them and the world watching nervously, the team springs into action and devises an incredible plan to teleport planet Earth into the far reaches of space. But then the surfer and Galactus arrive early and put the kibosh on the plans, so the FF amend the plan to send Galactus himself into the far reaches of space, which seemed like the better strategy to begin with. So which was dumber and more suitable for bugger-eating six-year-olds? Find out. Alright, Joe. Well, as catalogued in the uh synopsis, both films kind of follow the same beats. So with that in mind, which film was a better film?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Fantastic Four.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

I agree. I agree. Not great on the plot level. Not great. In fact, I'd say both I'm sure you'll agree. Both films really covered well-worn territory by both other superhero movies and their own franchises. Uh even this new one, New Fantastic Four as good as it was, was essentially a remake of the crappy 2007 Rise of the Silver Surfer. So it was like, yeah, this isn't much different. It feels, and then again, both films sort of felt similar in terms of story beats, public opinion, and whatnot. But yes, I'd say Fantastic Four uh in terms of a work of cinema was actually probably pretty high up there for Marvel. Like, you know, to its credit, the the stupid world, like teleportation, just seemed like something Mr. Fantastic would do in the comics anyway. It didn't seem like, oh, this is so dumb. I mean, it kind of did, if you if you stopped and thought about it. But I thought in the in the world that they created, it it worked fine.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

It leaned very much into like 1960s comic book campiness. Um, instead of leaning away from it or trying to make fun of it or anything else like that, it's like, no, we're gonna sure, there's a bunch of you know interesting space needle type structures here in 1960s New York, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

And it's very much like the Jetsons kind of feel or the Incredibles, which itself was a Fantastic Four rip-off, not ripoff, but homage, if you will. Yes. And they very I thought very smartly just said, hey, why why reinvent the wheel? Let's just make the Incredibles the Fantastic Four. And I I thought Matt Shacklin uh he did a great job, actually. I mean, he had done did you see Wandavision at all?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah, so WandaVision started great, like this is great, and then it just devolved into Marvel crap. Uh, I thought like by the end of it, I was like, uh that wasn't very good. But I'd say when he was cooking with all cylinders with all these television shows, especially, you know, he was I didn't realize he was on just the ten of us. I don't know if you even know what I'm talking about. No, that was a show about Catholics in the late 80s. It was this like show of a family of ten, and that they had a priest friend played by the guy who played Herb Turlock and W things I'm talking over your head about, but it was interesting to me. Just I only watched like an episode in passing, but I didn't realize he was like one of the kids. So he on WandaVision, he actually, and then you got what's her face, Olsen, Elizabeth Olson. So there's that show Full House with the Olsen twins. They expertly like I was more impressed with that than I was with the I Love Lucy stuff, like in terms of like that really feels like a cheesy 80s sitcom, you know. I was I was really impressed with that. Like, yeah, this seems right on the money, and then of course it just became lackluster Marvel fair. But this, as a work of cinema, I was shocked at how he sort of graduated into a cohesive cinematic world. Probably, I gotta say, uh, in terms of just a look and the feel of uh a Marvel motion picture, this is I'm gonna say it's the best. You know, it's not better than Iron Man in terms of just heart and and you know Hutzpa. But like as a work of cinema, this is the only entry in the mar the whole Marvel universe that feels like a work of cinema. Don't would you agree to that or no?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Uh I don't know. I mean it's it's it's hard with so much slop to kind of work through for me to think of it.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

But their strength has never been in cinematography and production design, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

No.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

You know. Maybe Avengers Infinity War that had a sort of big budget extravaganza feel, but still not exactly creative, not exactly interesting to behold. You know, if you look at it, you're like, okay, there's some scenes that are as eye candy, I think it was pretty cohesive, but it wasn't interesting. Like, oh, that's cool. It was just like, uh, you know, they're they're on a planet, it does it, it looks like CG. Nothing, you know, it not this for a change looked like I was actually fascinated by the world they created. So I'd say that was a f the all-time first for Marvel. I I would hope they keep it up, but I don't know how they can because it's an alternate universe.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, I don't know. I think I think visually it is really interesting. I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons why Fantastic Four works so well and and why it's kind of a very refreshing take. I mean, I I don't get me wrong, I think I still have some reservations with saying like it's a great, perfect movie.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

No, I I wouldn't say that. It's thin plot again. Even but even even the first Iron Man was a little thin. Like, hey, I wonder if Jeff Bridges are gonna be the bad guy. I mean, it was just like okay. I mean, it was in terms of a motion picture, it it came a little light in terms of story. It was it was all it was basically the strength of Robert Downey Jr. and John Favreau making it work, you know. As a story, it was a pedestrian script for sure, you know. But um it was it had Robert Downey to sort of liven things up, and it's still the best. I'd still of all the Marvel films, it's still the when I went back and watched it when we did our Captain America podcast, I said, yeah, this is still the snappiest and loosest and best, most cohesive Marvel movie, you know. And this again didn't have Robert Downey in its favor. So again, and we'll get into performance later, but Pedro Pascal was fine. I thought he was fine. It could have been a better, I didn't I'd even have probably preferred John Krasinski, who I'm not for. I wasn't one of those fans clamoring for him. I like I'm always like, why did he become what what? Why is he a star? Why do people love him? I don't I don't get it. Why would he be Captain America? You know, I don't see it, and I don't, but it's like, well, it's Reed Richards. I I could have done without Pedro Pascal, but he did fine as as a guy belabored by his intelligence and his curse of being so smart. I thought, okay, he's fine, he's doing good. Um, but uh yeah, I I uh I thought it was a pretty decent comic book movie, as as far as they go. And because it was otherworldly and as you said, like in this sort of Jetson's Incredibles world, I could forgive it, it's sort of stupidity, you know, like uh who cares if it if it's logical or it that's one of those movies where you don't just stop and go, that's dumb. I mean, I kind of did. At certain points. Because then you're like, you're gonna move the earth? Why didn't you just move? You know, that did just jump out like why didn't you just move galactus in the first place? You know, like seems like the logical plan. But anyway, it's okay, we're fine, you know. But anyway. Um thoughts on Superman.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Superman. I think that it was a movie that was supposed to be like I mean, it's supposed to be about the titular character of Superman. But it it really struck for me at least, it made me think that James Gunn really struggles with doing non-ensemble movies. Um, you know, Guardians of the Galaxy, you know, you know, they're they're fun, they're fine as you know, ensemble movies go. You know, the Suicide Squad, you know, was basically just Guardians, but ended up with an R rating. And with those, it's like, okay, I don't have to spend too much time out with any one of these characters. I think that Superman, it seemed like there were sort of split interests of either are we gonna make this really an ensemble cast, or are we going to make this about Superman? And it never seemed like a real decision was made on that front, um, whether they were going to do the full ensemble and really commit to it, or whether they were going to stick with Superman. It seemed like it was felt very unfocused, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

You listen to my synopsis, and I again I don't newsflash everybody, I I read my own synopsis. It really was just all over the map. It is. You know, it just was all over the map, and it didn't unfortunately that the movie just didn't focus on Superman. He did a good job. David Cordswith was did a fine job. I again he seemed so much like Henry Cavill to me that why didn't you just keep Henry Cavill? But fine, whatever. They replaced him, he was fine. He he and I liked Rachel Brosnan. I I thought she seemed like Margot Kidder. She had much more than you know how Brian Singer recasts, and like, what are you thinking on Lois Lane? What was I forgot her name already? She was in a surf movie. She was a 90s up and comer, and then you know, he put her in Superman and she disappeared forever. But what's God, what was her name? Anyway, I can't remember the actor's name at the time being um, but that didn't work. But this time he had a Lois Lane that's sort of in the Margot Kidder mold, which is a good mold because that sort of personality works well off of Superman. And again, for going into the Superman, the movie casting sessions, I always I used to be against Margot Kidder. I used to think, oh, uh, she's so like white trashy and ugly, and not so she's she even as a kid, I thought she wasn't pretty enough to be Lois Lane. I thought it should have been like Linda Carter or Jacqueline Smith or somebody like I used to think that until I watched the casting sessions of Superman the Movie, and I realized you can't have two beautiful people, like perfectly like if they had gotten say they had Ann Archer and they had other like really good-looking women alongside Christopher Reeve, and it didn't work, it just didn't work. It seemed like two people who didn't know each other. And I thought, oh yeah, Margot Kitter brings him to Earth because she's not like this wispy voiced seductress, she's she's down to earth, and that's a good that's a good compliment to Superman. And I thought, oh, that that's that was brilliant casting, actually. So I turned again as I became an adult and saw the reality of what they were doing. I thought, ah, that that worked really well. I I now stand at Margot Kidder. And so she stands in that vein, like, yeah, but she wasn't used enough. I mean, here's the first Superman movie where Perry White didn't factor whatsoever. You know, I I listed Wendell Pierce in the the cast list because he should be, because it should be Superman, Lois, Jimmy, Perry. There's your core, and after that you can have whoever else. But that's your that's your core group, and of course, I don't know. Dante, my son's very mad at like Lex being the bad guy again. He's like, they have a million Superman enemies and they always gotta go with Lex Luthor, you know, and it's true, and this wasn't much different as its core, it wasn't much different than Superman 4, for that matter. You know, the quest for peace. So Nuclear Man was made by the hair of Superman in Superman 4. So, do you ever see Superman 4? Utter disaster. You have to see it, just as a student of bad films. It's one of the worst movies ever made. It was Canon, you know who Canon films are?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

No.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Okay, Canon Films by Macham Golan and Yorm Globus. They were Israeli schlackmeisters who made all these uh missing in action. They made a lot of like titty movies and they made a lot of Chuck Norris movies, and they made, and they were always sort of wheeling and dealing. So they thought they'd get into the big time in '86. So they did this movie Cobra with Still on, which was a medium hit, but then they thought they would bet the farm on Masters of the Universe and Superman. And both movies flop, but Superman, they cut the budget from like 35 million to 17 million, and it's it's just you should see it. It's dreadful. It's it's just probably one of the most baffling movies ever made. And it's got Christopher Reed, it's got Gene Hackman, it's got the whole cast, and they just look embarrassed. It's just the worst, it's the worst Superman movie by far. But the story is Lex Luther makes Nuclear Man out of Superman's hair follicle. Same deal. Like, wait a minute. Not only does he go to the Fortress of Solitude like he does in Superman 2 and Superman Returns, he goes again. Like, guys, stop with the same effing plot all the time. And just because you cram it full of heroes and this and that doesn't mean it's any different. It was the same crap. Like, uh, this is the they and it's not fair to Superman in a way, because you're like, yeah, there's all these things you can do with Superman, and they never do them. Man of Steel was a rehash, total rehash of Superman one and two, you know, and it's like that's just this is just zad all over again. What's the point? And they keep just limiting Superman. Like, again, Don Dante and we're talking about all the possible villains. Gorilla Grog. Who doesn't love Gorilla Grog? Just do a Gorilla Grog movie, you know. I mean, like, there's all these different Brainiac, they keep wanting to bring Brainiac in, bring Brainiac in. You know, there's a million Superman villains. I mean, and Luther can be on the side, he can be like the guy with the corporation watching Superman. You you can start building this Lex being the big baddie and one of in Superman number four, whatever it's gonna be, however many you're gonna have it. But you know, just have Lex as just a business guy. And he's just and I thought Nicholas Holt did fine. I liked his sort of fearlessness, like he's just not scared of Superman. I thought that was his like sort of unflinching attitude towards Superman was a first. You know, like okay, he just is so arrogant, he thinks Superman's not a threat to him, you know?

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Thoughts. Yeah. I think I think you're onto something. I think that the problem is we keep recycling these Superman plots, and I I think not just recycling them, but just trying to do the same thing over and over again. And with the attempt of like, well, we're we're gonna do it right this time, that's the big difference. And it's dumb. Stop stop treading over the same exact territory. We we know Lex Luthor is important. If you need to have him, have him in the background, don't even need to make him a main villain or anything like that. Yeah. I personally I've always liked um I mean, I know this is going animated, but I've always liked Clancy Brown. Oh, yeah, yeah. His his Lex Luthor is kind of the very put together and polished, and like he's looking out of his hundredth story building, you know, and like, you know, just so looking down his nose at everybody except for Superman. That's kind of what what grinds his gears. Yeah, and and it's like I I think I I like that aspect of him.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Parenthetically, did you ever see the one where he and Mark Hamill team up, where Superman and Batman, it was on the the Superman animated series where Batman and Superman team up, and it was great. It is really great. Like Mark, like Mark Hamill going, Oh, it's Corinthian leather, when he sits inside Lexus Limo. It was really funny, like yeah, and that was a great two-part episode. And yeah, and they they have not see that show, for some reason, they were always nailing it, and they that show they've never captured that in any of the movies.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

I mean, it's because I I feel like for a lot of the people working on that, it wasn't just money, it was a passion project. Sure. Like it's it's a stuff that they absolutely loved. And yeah, I know that you have directors who are saying, Oh, I I love this a lot too, but I think with the animated series, you get people who are like really just trying to adapt it in a the most faithful way possible and trying to be as interesting and invested as they are, you know. Um but anyways, I think that with with this movie it's very it is pretty unoriginal ultimately. And the problem is that I I mean certain things like okay, Superman and his relationship with his parents, for example, you know, it it could have been done well. It could have been an interesting, like, okay, yeah, sure. We have Krypton. Yes, I know. It's such a big plot.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

It's I mean, if you're going to change it that much, like even Lex's reaction to it should have been like, this is phenomenal. This is this is like a thank you, God. I mean, there should have been like because again, it's get it gets lost in the shovel of giant monsters and the justice gang. It's like this is a major fine. If you want to say they would they said, okay, take over the world and spread your seat, screw all the women possible soups. It's like they're all yours. They're your they're your harem for your your takeover as you, the ultimate champion and and and king of the universe, fine. But that's a major, major story. And they they it this got lost in the shuffle, you know. Uh that was my big like, what?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

It did. It it felt but like by the end, like having the conclusion of like, you know, maybe it doesn't matter who you're born to, maybe it matters more what your decisions are, which is you know, okay. Fine, not whatever. It's a pretty cliched message at this point, but it didn't feel like it earned that conclusion.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Not at all. Not especially since he got his his face wiped, but the floor he was he, you know, you uh Ultraman was wiping the the mat the mat with him the whole movie. Like this, it just didn't have much heroics in it, you know. And it was yeah, it's just taken the lesson from from Donner, who who created those moments of bum but. I mean, they used the again the the best part, we'll get into music, of course, but the best part of the movie to me was when you heard the theme, but he didn't earn the theme. He was just a he was kind of a whiny weakling who was had to be saved by everybody else. He's the guy who saves. If Zack Snyder got one thing right, it's the stature of Superman. Like, yeah, he's the big coon, he's the A-bomb. You don't mess with Superman, and that that's the best part of the the his cut of the Justice League when you know what's his face hits him with the axe and it doesn't do a thing to him because he's Superman. That that's the the movie just completely lacked that. So I was like, uh what the heck? So I left. I got bored. You know, I I I saw after a long drive to Oregon, so after a 10-hour drive and emotional turmoil that I can't get into, but uh it was just so we went to see it, and when the building started falling, I started nodding off. And then the uh the rift. I am so sick of the rifts. Like that's I've been railing on that cliche since the Avengers. I mean, how many close the portal, the portal's closing? I mean, my goodness, how many times we have to see this? And I was I was yelling about that 10 years ago. Like this this portal is like the running to the airport in a romantic comedy. It's like, you know, or uh, you know, in a rom-com of stopping your girlfriend at the airport. It was like enough of this stupid scene with the portals closing. But no, they gotta have that portal closing, you know? It's just even Fantastic Four had a portal closing, you know. It's been a long slog of portals closing in movies, especially superheroes movies. But so both points off for both of those, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah. It kind of has, and this is something that I wish that some of these movies would back away from, is the idea that, like, oh, like we're gonna open this rift. Well, if we do, it's going to possibly destroy the entire earth. And it's like, okay, so that's the earth-shattering consequences of you know, I mean, literally. Um, it's always the war the world is going to be destroyed. Yeah. And not to say that that isn't a major theme in a lot of superhero, you know, comics and whatnot, but I think that it doesn't have to be that. You know, I think that having one single instance of just, you know, you don't have to destroy Metropolis every time there's a massive battle. You know, every time there's a battle.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah, they they they they cheated that one and it's getting heat for it, but just remember Superman 2 has it. That has the moment where where Christa Reeve Superman goes, oh, I can't be here. I gotta leave. There, don't leave us, Superman, don't leave us. You think oh, he's chickening out. No, he's not. He's bringing the fight on her his terms. It's like even the cartoons Superman vs. Doomsday and all that, it's like, would you just leave the area? I've been screaming about this for years. Like, whenever I bought that DVD for my son, you know, I'm like, yeah, they never leave the area anymore. It like Superman the Superman 2 established. Hey, leave the area, people are in danger. There's there's nothing but oceans and outer space and deserts where Superman can reign supreme, you know, like yeah, there's more land on Earth where Superman they can't do any damage to the buildings, and Superman never seems to choose it. And Manisteel, of course, was the worst. Like, geez, Louise, destroy the whole city, why don't you? You know?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Yeah. I mean, uh, even things like with the kaiju that he was fighting, it's like, I mean, couldn't you just like take it out to the the bay and then have a slug fest with it? Like, why does it need to be in the middle of this metropolitan area?

SPEAKER_02 26:24

It's just directors and CG artists, I swear. They just want to do it. Like, it's not interesting to me. It's like a car chase, it's like a car chase ad nauseum. I'm like, okay, I don't care. I and I don't care now. They're explaining it. In both movies, they explained it fairly poorly. Um, I think Fantastic Four has the edge because they they could have had something with Mole Man, but I think he was badly cast. We'll get into that. That was very bad cast. That guy, the Cobra Kai guy, he's not up to the s, he's not up to snuff. And that was lazy casting on on their part. It it should have been your an Alpha Alfred Morlina type pompous ass playing Mole Man for sure. Like, what no, you don't get the dumb hick grease ball from Cobra Kai or what he Richard Jewell. He's not the Mole man, like that's a that was just terrible casting. And lazy, like what? He's he's a doofus. I mean, yeah, Mole Man's always been kind of a doofus, but he's a pompous doofus who hates earthlings, you know, or surface dwellers and all that. So it's just ah, I was just like, ah, that was dumb. Plus, how does being underground help them when Galactus is crushing and they even show it?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Like Yeah, that was a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

I was like, what are you doing? Why even go, why even bring in Mole Man? Just have the have the people go into the little transporting transports under the end of the universe or whatever. You know, there's any number of ways to deal with this, but it just seemed like, uh, I don't, I don't know. Just stop bringing the fight to the city. Yeah. Can you guys stop this? It's not interesting, but they keep doing it.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

I mean, even an easy fix for that would have been like, you know, if if he has to go to the underground or whatever, it's like, oh, well, you're gonna use our special tunnels to reroute some of this traffic to a you know different locations.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

But having everybody bunker in down underground where there are sure to be shockwave cameras and earthquakes, it just doesn't seem like very smart planning.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

And again, we're getting again the the movies work, but to go to those details, just well, stick with the fantastical story, then that you know, they the negative zone or whatever, you know, read Richard's negative zone. And where was that? You know, he's uh they've already discovered like he's they're four years into it, so he four years into the adventures, they've they're in the negative zone. So anyway, that's just all comic book stuff. Um what movie we don't typically go into the production design production design and the look so soon in our discussions, but I think it's warranted. What did you think of the look of Superman? I was extremely disappointed. Uh and like especially in Fantastic Four bringing it in a sharp focus as a strong production design and a cohesive look. Superman, I thought, looked bad. Like the wide angle photography at first looked good in terms of you know that first landing on Earth and crypto and all that. But then with the flying and the punching and the everything in such a wide angle, I thought made it look goofy. It like and it didn't, it strikes me as like a very disjointed visual experience. Thoughts? Am I wrong? You agree? Did you think about it?

SPEAKER_00 29:49

I mean, yeah, I mean it's true. I I think that a lot of the fly like the way that they carried out things, a flying um it it didn't give you kind of that sense of like I I think it's more interesting when you're able to balance this idea that oh my goodness, like Superman, he's like a god or something like that, with small town, you know, Kansas-raised country boy kind of thing. Yeah. Like the humility with the godlike ability and stuff like that is I think interesting. And being able to balance those two, I think is really important. And I think the problem is that when it came to a lot of Superman's feats within the movie, there are only a couple of moments that I can even think of where I'm like, whoa, he's really, really cool. Like, look at all the awesome stuff that he's able to do, you know. Um, versus like, yeah, he's getting he's everybody's punching bag, and he's just getting totally whipped on the entire movie. Um and the way that they carry that out, um, you know, the the moments of him flying kind of I I know that it was made fun of a lot online before the movie even came out was the sort of awkward angle of you know him looking up into the camera as he's flying around. And I kind of agree that like even watching it in the movie, like not having to freeze frame anything, I was like, yeah, it's a weird angle. Like, I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

I was like, But even like remember he punches the he punches one of the guys and his tooth falls out. It didn't it just didn't work. I thought that didn't work.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

That was cheesy, that looked like a video game. It just throughout the movie, I was constantly thinking, this doesn't look good. It doesn't, it's not a good-looking movie. It's probably one of the ugliest Superman movies in terms of a of a cohesive look. It it actually rivals the aforementioned Superman 4 in terms of just I mean Superman 4 is just schlock. So this wasn't schlock, but I just thought it was a bad, it was a bad design. You know, when he punches through the glass and it looked, it was in a wacky super wide vision. And I'm like, that that's not a good angle, you know, for for that heroic moment. It just didn't. I I just thought, you know, there's all these comic books as templates, visual templates, and that's where Fantastic Four, I have to say, looked great. It looked like the comic, the Fantastic Car, looked like the comic, it all felt like a G whiz bang. Oh, we're in a comic book adventure, and it felt as a as a movie, it was actually pretty brilliant as a visual experience. Um, does it break new ground? I guess not. It doesn't feel like it's broken the Marvel curse of being just this fantastic movie, like at like it's not, let's say, Blade Runner or even Alien. It's not in that realm of some reason Marvel just doesn't have an an in them. I don't know what it is. It's it's this sort of fast food approach to making movies. I can't quite articulate why they don't get into just that was like Apocalypse Now. It's like they just is it because it's the the mundane, but see, you got the first Superman, which to me always seemed like a big budget extravaganza, great movie. Yeah, it's popcorn thin, but it's still like as a look, it's a bold movie in my mind, you know. Um, whereas these just sort of fall short. Fantastic four again, as I said, probably the best in terms of Marvel's production design and and the whole cinema experience, and we'll get into music too, because Michael Giacchino's score was fantastic, like really great. This is what I've been wanting from him from a while now, because I know like the Incredibles, he burst on the scene with the Incredibles and then uh swung and miss on Star Trek, Spider-Man, and Star Wars. Like he gets the big three, he gets the big three, he gets the big three franchises, and he swings and misses. Like, wow, yeah. Spider-Man is just like, what? Now, if you listen to Fantastic Four, you go, that's what Spider-Man needed. That energy, that like sort of pulsating energy the whole time, you know. And uh, yeah. So I thought as a visual audio experience, Fantastic Four was as good as Marvel's ever given. No? Yeah. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

No, I I think that if if I had to say there's only if there's one thing that I think the Fantastic Four has done, um, that is I I would say in terms of breaking new ground. I would say this is the first time that I've really truly felt like this was an adaptation of the comics where they weren't secretly ashamed of its origins. Right. Right. You know, because I feel like even with so many of these other movies, even though it's like, oh look, we're gonna have this cool thing, there's always a little bit of a tongue-in-cheek, like, this is really silly, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

You know, or this is goofy. I mean, you know, for the most part, this felt very much like we love the fact that it's like from the 60s. We love like the crazy weird space travel and oh, we're going through this wormhole thing, you know. And the the idea, I mean, just the design of Galactus, like the reason why he was just a giant cloud and you know, Rise of the Silver Surfer, they were scared. Yeah, like they didn't they thought this nobody will ever want to watch this movie if we have this giant purple weird-looking headed guy walking out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Well, I've long the the the the opening credits or the opening the opening TV show where they're they're you know the found footage or the sort of TV newsreel footage of them going to space and all that, I thought was fantastic. And I've long since back when I when uh what's his face, poor departed McMr. McMahon who just died, who played uh Dr. Doom in the first movies. I remember just complaining like, why would you not have security footage of the Doombots invading the UN and just own he's a despot from Latvaria who has a suit? Big deal. You can make that work. I don't know what they're planning with Robert Downey, but it's like, yeah, he's just an evil genius dictator with this metal suit. That's own it and read Richards, and he's smart as smart as Reed Richards. And I've never understood like the that Josh Trank version was so bad. I want to make a body horror movie with a fantastic four, like, yeah, right. That was never, ever the mode of the comics. You know, a wrong-handed example of that is you ever see Greystoke, The Legend of Tarzan, Lord of the Apes. No, it's from 1984. It's a Hugh Hudson who directed uh Chariots of Fire. So you've got this BBC masterpiece theater British to the to the hilt version of Tarzan, and it's so bad with Christopher Lambert. I don't know if you know who he is, but from Highlander, he's the star. So he he burst on the scene, and it's ridiculous. Even in one in '84, I'm like, this is ridiculous. This is so stupid. I was 14 years old going, this is so stupid. It's like Masterpiece Theater. Masterpiece Theater presents the amazing Spider Man. You know, like that's a stupid idea. And that Josh Trank version is the same thing. Like, what the hell is he doing? So then you've got two things going on. And again, Doom is worse than ever. He's worse than he is in the 2005 version. Like, what the hell is this? Why? And so the yes, you're right. You know why Galactus is imposing? Because they committed to it. They committed to how awesome he'd be. And it that's what I mean about this. That's what I mean about this movie. Like, like when he in it's constant shot in in Marvel Comics, the the outline with his eyes glowing. That was that is straight up. There it is. That's what I mean about the they they paid finally, like, yeah, take a page from the comic books. These comic books last for a reason because they're visually interesting. Uh you can't go on the stories because the stories are goofy. But you, you know, like, yeah, visually, these comic books stayed with us because they're there. Jack Kirby was a great artist. Back in in uh 2005, it should have been Bruce Greenwood and it should have been Naomi Watts. And then you could you could have had Michael Chickless and but see, you got Tim Story, who's a who was a kid, and obviously he had one movie to his credit, and he could obviously Marvel could push him around. And he cast who did he cast? The one girl he wanted to screw, like just oh Jessica Alba. I get to make a movie. I'm gonna cast Jessica Alba. Like Jessica Alba.

unknown 39:01

Like what?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Could you imagine? Like, yeah. Uh why didn't you just peruse the porn sites and get a porn actress? No, it was Naomi Watts. Oh fans are all saying it. Bruce Greenwood would have been per. Do you know Bruce Greenwood is?

SPEAKER_00 39:18

No.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Oh, he played Captain Pike in the J.J. Abrams Star Trek. Did you ever see that? Yeah. But he's a great actor. He's actually a great actor. He played John F. Kennedy in a movie called 13 Hours. Um I think it was 13 days. No, 13 days. There's 13 hours and there's also 13 days. It's Kevin Costner and him, and he played JFK. So he burst on the scene like circa 2000. He would have been perfect for Reed Richards. Absolutely perfect. Great actor, like really good. He's in this movie called Meek's Cutoff, where he plays like a psycho frontiersman. So he's a great actor. He could have done Reed Richards in his sleep, and he's totally commanding. And uh, you know, um, yeah, just they didn't. They cast Ian Graffo, who British actor, totally lost in the part. Like you could see he has no idea what he's doing. I have no idea what who this character is. I I don't know, and there's I don't understand it. He just didn't understand, but he's the wrong guy for the job because he looks like Mush. He's totally Mush. Yeah, okay. He has the same hairdo, so okay. Uh anything that's thematics? You know, what what's the deep meaning of families first? You got any deep meaning before we get into the the technical aspects of it?

SPEAKER_00 40:32

I I think that Fantastic Four does a better job, certainly, than Superman in terms of its underlying themes and overall message. You know, the idea that, you know, family, you know, there there's an importance to family, and that, you know, these are superheroes who, yes, they've time and time again been helping the world, you know, but that doesn't mean that they're going to save the world at you know this, you know, the cost of their family unit or anything like that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Well, I thought subconsciously there was something strong in that message of you're only going to save the world when the family stays together. That could be wishful thinking on my part. But I wish her speech was that, but that would be maybe too on the nose. But you know, we're not we're talking about comic book sort of plotting and stuff, but it should have kind of been that. Like, yeah, we're we're only gonna stay, we're only gonna survive anything when the when the core unit of civilization stays together, and that's the family. And uh by and large, the film succeeded in conveying that message overall. I I don't think it, you know, whereas Superman, he James Gunn, again, he has did you ever see Slither, James Gunn's movie? Okay, it's kind of a ripoff of a movie called Night of the Creeps, if you ask me, but um Slither, he just likes dumb Hicks. So he likes those, he likes going, well golly, he likes putting those characters in his in his movies. And I was just stunned that he he um created Ma and Paul Kent to be them. Like, dumbass. Have you ever been to the Midwest? There are, you know, there are the Glenn Ford types, there are the the like salt of the earth, you know, conservative, religious, strong people who did make America great. You know, so to make them just like dumb, like pig screwing idiots, like I just couldn't believe it. Like, that's your vision of Ma and Paw Kent. I'm making remote on. Oh, why don't you go outside of the world? Like, I couldn't believe it. Like, you this guy, you know, you say James, you enjoy James Gunn's movies. I say there's one movie I enjoy, and that's Guardians of the Galaxy, and that's like the Matrix. I don't think he wrote it. This girl, this woman, Nicole Perlman, wrote it. She was writing it long before he got on the project. And I think he just doctored her script, and that's why it's good because the other two are terrible. And it's just a it's a testament to how bad the other ones are that this one ranks higher than, say, Man of Steel. He's so breathlessly putting all the kind of Superman, you know, goofy stuff from the 50s and 60s in there, including Supergirl, which I'm like, oh, she's a drunk. Oh, great. Can't wait for that movie. It's just like, yeah, he's so busy cramming it in, he forgot to tell Superman's story. So it just seemed like, yeah, he he's and and unlike unlike Fantastic Four, he didn't set it sat Fantastic Four set up its world perfectly. He didn't. He started to and then dropped it in in lieu of everybody else in the movie. Yeah. You know, Fantastic Four set up the world really well with that talk show. Oh, uh one thing we didn't address, which is a controversy, it wasn't that big a deal for me, but female Silver Surfer.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Thoughts? Uh I I I was one of the people who went in thinking like I was gonna hate it. Yeah, me too. I I like I like Norrin Rad as the Silver Surfer. It's a cool story. I still think it was unnecessary making it. That said, I think that she did a great job. I actually like the Silver Surfer for the most part.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

I'm not gonna go great, and I think it should have been Norn Rad, but I think she she's not served well very well as a character, so it it didn't matter. So in the end, if you were gonna write as such a thin character, why not just keep it as Nor and Rad? Because she's barely she barely factors in the movie, I thought.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

I didn't hate her for sure. I wasn't like, oh, this is terrible. And I can see why they added her to be a Johnny uh sort of possible romance. But if you're gonna go that far, you know, there's a character named Frankie Ray. I forget what her her her ultimate name became. I but I have the comic book where she becomes the herald of Galactus, and she was good because she's this girlfriend that that uh Johnny doesn't know anything about, and then of course she turns out to be a superhero. She's she's she can she can use fire like him, and then she Galactus is gonna come and destroy the earth one more time, and Avengers all team up and she sacrifices herself and she says, I'll become a herald. And then Johnny's like, No, you can't do that, and then she's like, So what? A few bug-eyed monsters or whatever, and then she goes off and becomes a herald, and Johnny does fall go to all the way to outer space and fall back to Earth, and then for the next rest of the comic, he's like, I'm just a loser, everybody hates me. Yeah, okay, I'm the guy who nobody likes, but girls, you know, so he's just feeling sorry for himself because he loses yet another girl. And it's like, yeah, why not make if you're gonna go that far, just bring in Frankie Ray so you can save Noran Rat, like Shalabal, come on, you know. How many comics did I don't know how many Silver Surfer comics you had, but every comic about Silver Surfer is always like, and to find my love, Shalabal, you know, like come on. You're depriving Silver Surfer of those lines of him bemoaning the fact that he lost her. It just seemed like, well, yeah, it's uh it didn't. And then I thought they were gonna explain how she had Norrin Radd and it's an alternate universe. They didn't even explain anything. Like, well, yeah, that was pointless. That was a pointless change.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah, it was. I mean, yeah, the same story, just choosing a different character for some reason. I guess they thought they'd make a romance with Johnny, but it didn't happen. So it's like, what's the point? I mean, if they were gonna try and do something like that, I mean, I I think that you know, the going back again to the original comics would have worked fine. Like, you know, Silver Surfer gets knocked off his board, ends up with the colour.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Here's my thought by I bet you anything they couldn't make it much different than 2007, so they just said, well, let's make her a girl. Because she didn't look much different. The the technology has evolved, or like, eh, she was barely better, you know, than what they produced in 2007. Even her surfboard didn't look that interesting. I did like though best scene in probably the best scene in the movie was her chase when she's chasing them through the wormhole. That was actually probably the most interesting, exciting little scene. So she she had moments, but I I didn't I yeah, I wasn't hating it. I didn't like, oh, it ruins the movie, but I did question why they even bothered.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, I think it was interesting. Uh I like as far as an antagonist goes, I actually liked I liked her as an antagonist. Like the sort sort of sense of danger that you get is very subtle in many ways. Yeah, it's not like that's true, okay, this is a person who's gonna overwhelm you with their firepower, but it's like, oh no, but this is a person who's able to like move extremely fast, who's able to go through material. You're not really sure what sort of limits she has, if any.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

And but see, that's uh she needed a little bit more fleshing out so you understood just how powerful, just because Silver Surfer is mega powerful, and he's always uh human, I'm not gonna kill you because I'm just too I'm just too good a person to kill you, but I could. That's Silver Surfer's deal. Like, yeah, he's pretty unbeatable, and so they didn't establish because those scenes that we mentioned, they don't establish just how unbeatable she is, so it's just like, yeah, they're kind of giving us the this is the assumption we know how powerful she is, but the the average Schmo doesn't, you know. I mean, uh they don't care, obviously, but you have to understand like Silver Surfer is way up there on the chain of you can't mess with him.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah, you know. I mean, I think also they only they they skirted around the power cosmic.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Um, in terms of just they they've used the word Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's campy, I think. Yeah, yeah. I've always loved it.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

You know, because that before mutants, that was the deal. It was the power because then mutants sort of took over for a while, you know, but yeah, power cosmic for sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yeah. And you don't really get the sense that they have any abilities except for Galactus being very big and Silver Surfer being very fast and being able to go through things. Like, there's not really a sense of like, okay, like, what does it mean to have this power cosmic?

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Um you had to pit the two, uh, Pedro Pascal versus David Cornsweat. Who wins?

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I I might say just very narrowly, David Cornsweat. Um I didn't dislike Pedro Pascal, but I found that if if I had one major critique for the Fantastic Four movie, the main cast just didn't have the sort of energy I would have liked. Um, which I feel like is probably more of a directing thing than actually on the cast, but um I felt like it would have been nice to have more from each one of them a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

Um I can see that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I uh I yeah, that's a tough one. David Cornsweat seemed like Superman for sure, and he didn't he didn't fail us there. Uh in fact, he probably because of the aweshucks, he's probably a little bit better than Henry Cavill, though I like Henry Cavill's stature more. Henry Cavill held, I think, held the screen better than David Cornsweat. Uh Pedro Pascal was a weird one because he would he did fine in the part that was written, you know. Yeah because he was written to be a bit of a downer and apologetic about it all. Um but he with the mustache and the look on his face, he didn't seem like the the team leader that's gonna lead the universe. Like Reed Richards, he's the king, he's bigger than Captain America, all of them. He's the leader of Earth, you know. When when push comes a shove, it's Reed Richards who bosses everybody around. And I just don't see that in in David and in Pedro Pascal. He like him up against Tony Stark. Okay, Tony Stark's dead. Chris Evans is Captain America, they're all dead, right? So it's like he's got to take over as the leader, and he I don't see that happening because again, in that comic where Galactus and Frankie Ray, the Avengers are in it, and they're all bitching to Reed Richards because Reed Richards refuses to Tony Stark is bitching that Reed Richards refuses to kill Galactus. And then Captain America joins him, like, no, we must never take a human lot of a life of any kind in order to achieve our goal, you know? So it's that's and that's it. They all defer to Reed Richards. And you know, Tony Stark's like, no, this is crazy. Let's kill him, let him die. They're like, we must save Galactus, you know. Anyway, um, it's it uh yeah, I just I think you're right. It's overall, does he seem like the guy who who who's the king of the universe? Again, leader of the Illuminati. He's the leader of them. Yeah, he's the leader of Blackbolt and Professor X. Reed Richards is the the top dog. Yeah, and I just didn't see that in Pedro Pascal. Like, I don't, I don't buy it.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

No. I mean, he seems like he's a very like, I mean, very scientific, and he is maybe the smartest man in the world. Yeah, but you don't get the sense that he's a leader, really.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

No. And he the the the sort of apology like in the previews, it came off worse than in the actual movie of him going, I don't know. I'm like, uh-oh, that's that's the Captain Kirk problem. The new Captain Kirk with Chris Pine saying, I don't know what we're gonna do. I'm like, that's not Captain Kirk, dummies. That's that's the one thing Captain Kirk doesn't do is think, oh fuck, we're screwed. He doesn't do that. That's Captain Kirk's thing. And Reed Richards doesn't tell the world, oh gee, I don't know. You know, but I think in context with this, it was like, okay, that's not terrible. But yeah. Uh okay, so moving on. So uh Vanessa Kirby versus Rachel Bosnan.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Uh that's hard. I I I have maybe slightly prefer Vanessa Kirby.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

I think Vanessa Kirby was given more of an opportunity to make an impression. Poor Rachel Bosman was not, and that's just not that's not fair to be. No, it's not a big thing. Again, like I said, she uh earlier, she's she had the Lois Lane vibe, and she's pretty, and she she, you know, not not that that's a a thing, but well, actually, it is a thing. She's gotta be pretty, you gotta be attracted to Lois Lane, and it's like, yeah, uh, she wasn't given a chance, that's all. And and Vanessa Kirby was given much more of a chance, probably too much of a chance. I mean, I I fully appreciate that they want Sue to be more of a progressive, strong woman. And in 1964 comic books, Sue was always like Neymer falls in love with her, Silver Surfer falls in love with her, Doctor Doom falls, they all fall in love with Sue. Like that's was her sort of thing, and there was always like like they were just saying, like writers or kids would write in and say, get rid of her. I mean, that's that's how useless she was. And so that like the kids were like, No, it should be the Fantastic III, you know. So the she was sort of the fifth wheel, basically, and um I get that. So maybe they overcompensated, but yeah, I you know, you can't I would be fine with Noran Rad falling in love with Sue. You remind me of Shalaball. But anyway, I I liked her. I liked her fine. That's yeah, I mean, she she's not the 60s version for sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

I I think in terms of like there's a question of performance and then also the way that they wrote the character. Like, I think that she I mean nowadays modern comic audience audiences like they're like she's like the most powerful member of the Fantastic Four. Like she can do all these crazy things, and you know, it's like okay, I grant that. But you know, for the sake of this, it feels very much like she's sort of upstaged all of the other characters.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Um way too powerful at the end, way too powerful to take on Galactus. That's that's never been Sue's deal.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

So like and I think that it would have been more powerful if it hadn't been all of them again, kind of together, you know, for sure. So why is it?

SPEAKER_02 56:04

And again, how what I don't get. You got this guy who's the thing, he's made of rock. Take out his kneecap, like make him fall. Like he's the thing, he's super he's as strong as the Hulk, he's nearly as strong as the Hulk. Okay, he's top three. It used to be Hulk, Thing, and Thor. Thor being third after the after the thing. So that like they don't even know their own their own um universe and their own history. Like Thing is pretty strong. He can at least punch his kneecap and and make him falter, and Reed can wrap himself around, and they can and Johnny can blind him, and they can because again, Johnny can go supernova and they they've established how powerful he is, and so they can just have all this and then she pushes she can push him in, but they it was way too like why is she the only one doing it?

SPEAKER_00 56:54

I also think it's funny that like Reed almost instantly manages to hit some of Galactus's weak point with the sort of holes on his back and then they never decide to target them again. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

Yeah, I forgot, you know, I forgot about that already. Yeah, exactly. So they writers, like, don't they love this stuff? Don't they love that's what bugs me? I mean, I'm we're sitting there, you know, fans bitching about it, but like, don't you guys read the comic books you're assigned to make movies about? Like, you you've assigned me to Fantastic Four, I'm gonna immediately pull out my stack of large-size comic books and flip through them and go, oh yeah, oh yeah, that's right. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. And then I'd go, okay, well, what happened in the 70s? What happened in the 80s? You know, the John Byrne versions, which were great, great. John Byrne did a great run on Fantastic Four. And then it started to suck in the 90s where they made Sue a sex pot. Like you're going, oh, like they did to every character. Like the 90s were the worst, where every girl was wearing a G string, including Sue Storm, and she was wearing a leather jacket and a G string. Like, give me a freaking break. Like the 90s was the worst. And now I haven't read a comic in years, but I I gave up in the 90s because it was all just every girl wore high, high-hipped shorts and basically nothing. And every guy had a leather jacket and a bandolier. You know, terrible era for comics. Superman with the long hair. But anyway. Yeah, there's that. Yeah, no, no, no. There's some really disgusting stuff in the 90s. And just crap characters like Venom and Carnage. Anyway, don't get me started. But uh, okay, moving on. Let's so Johnny Storm versus Jimmy. Oh, Jimmy Olsen. What the hell was that? That wasn't developed very well, was it? Like Miss Tessmacher is hot for that. Just seem Oh, I don't know. Let's say Mo. And they all survive because I thought of. Like, wait, so Jimmy is Jimmy's a he's a cockballer and she just likes what?

SPEAKER_03 59:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Wheats!

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah, uh, you know, uh yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

All right, moving on. I think it was the Robert Downey lookalike. What's his face from Stranger Things? What's his name? Uh hold on. Oh, uh what's his name? His name is Joseph Quinn. I keep forgetting it. Such an easy name to remember. It's so easy. Joe Quinn. He's got your name, Joseph Quinn. Yeah. He did a good job, actually. I wish he they made more of the the the lonely hearts or the you know, the heartbreakers slash lonely hearts. So uh that again, this is a very weak time for writers. They they're afraid of the obvious stuff.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

I I think that's the thing, is like he he does a good. I mean, uh I think that the main cast all the fine job and Fantastic Four, I just wish there was more of that, like more of them differentiating their characters, you know, the thing being a little more gruff and you know, the sort of bossy New Yorker kind of like, you know, a little bit difficult. Like you you only get little snippets of that here and there, but for the most part, no, he's just like a pleasant guy who's made out of rocks, yeah, you know. Um, you know, and same thing with like Johnny is like, okay, he's a little bit impetuous, but he's also really smart and you know, good at what he does, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

Yeah, and and the comic books would handle those things like he would scream about how smart he is, you know, because he is a teenager or he is young. He's young, which of course never explained how he made it to space, but um but the thing is is that they didn't highlight how like I like that he had to have like an appointment with Reed, but he doesn't get mad enough about it, you know? Yeah because the the Johnny of the comics would get mad about that sort of thing and how he's not so stupid. I'm not so stupid, you know, because that's that's Johnny's character, you know. And they did, I was you're right, it's a little subdued.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

It was a little I mean part of the thing is like he's he is supposed to be hot-headed. Yeah, I mean, it's it's all just in the joke of he's the human torch. Yeah, of course he's hot headed.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

And I think Chris Evans, once upon a time, did a good job as as uh he did fine in in the context of those movies. He came out of all of them, he came out well, see if Michael Chickless had just agreed to be CG'd instead of that ridiculous plastic costume, yeah, he would have been great because he was perfect for Ben Grimm. Absolutely perfect, you know. And that leads that leads to Ebon Moss Bachrock. I thought he did good, but he Michael Chickless was actually perfect, and unfortunately, marred by a stupid suit. Uh-huh. You know. Um, so I yeah, he as you say, just all the things that make the thing the thing were were again the thing without Alicia is just to me, uh that's all I know. So I don't know what's going on. I never heard of any Rachel Roseman. So I that m is that a new character or what? I never I don't know. Because I was like, what is this?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

Where's Alicia? I think it's such a weird thing to take. I mean, I uh again, with with you know Disney trying to be inclusive with different characters to remove the blind love interest, you know, from something like this is just sort of a bit of a head scratch. It is like, well, why not?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

And Natasha Leone certainly could play blind, you know. She's become a handy, you know, capable actress. So like, why wouldn't I I just didn't get it? Like, and and the character went nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

Isn't Alicia supposed to also be like the stepdaughter or something like that of the taskmaster? No, not the taskmaster.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Oh, who is it? The puppet master. The puppet master. Or puppet master. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So fine. Save that for another day. Fine, save that for another day. But yeah, um, it's it's I I didn't get it. And I I just wondered, why are they going down this road that doesn't seem to go anywhere? And it didn't, it didn't have him with the like having like a like a Jewish wedding and Mazlot. Like, where's this? It'd been fine. I'd have been cool with that. That sounds like a good idea to me. Fine. He's got the grew of the beard, he's got the Yamulka, he's you know, having a party at the end. Fine. They marry each other, fine. But it should be Alicia in my mind. She can be Jewish, that's good, good.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

You know, uh what the hell? It's strange. It was just a strange, like what was on the cutting room floor? That's what I want to know. And there's quite a bit, I know, because obviously John Malkovich got cut out of it. And uh there's a whole sequence in the previews where they're touring, they're they're like touring the house, and that got that got dropped. Um, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

Yeah, it's so interesting that they have such a sh had such a short runtime too. Yeah, like I mean it it it as a movie it worked out fine, I'm sure, but I mean, compared to a lot of the other Marvel films that have come out of the world. Well, I think they're getting cold feet plus.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

I think they're getting cold feet because nobody's as interested. So shorter runtimes means sh more screenings. So finally, uh Silver Surfer slash Galactus versus Lex Lex Luthor.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

Uh uh Silver Surfer and Galactus, I would say by a wide margin.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

I I thought I would I'm not gonna say wide. I thought Nicholas Holt did a really good job seeming like a psycho. Yeah, like a corporate weird psycho who's not afraid of anything. I thought that was pretty good. He certainly was a step up from poor uh Jesse Eisenberg. Like the the worst casting of all time, like one of the worst casting, like it's uh it's up there. What?

unknown 1:05:06

What?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Yeah. So Nicholas Holt, I thought at least held his own. Uh but right Ralph Inison, that's a the beauty of the design of Galactus. Ralph Finison didn't have to do anything but be a voice, and it still still seemed like ah well, apparently they did a lot of it with practical effects too.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

So like he actually was in like a costume and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Fine, but he didn't but he he's just a like he's a great actor, as we discussed in The Witch. You know, like he's a he's a top-tier actor, and he didn't have like he didn't have to embarrass himself or anything, he just had to show up, you know. But that was good. It wasn't like, oh, he's making a fool of himself in that stupid costume. No, they did a great job with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

There was so much gravitas with a character that it's like, yeah, you you you don't think about the silliness of the design or anything else like.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

That you know the logistics, it's like you're like no, they committed they oh no it's galactic and and again I don't mean to knock him because he has that voice, you know, that great voice, but yeah, it just I didn't think too much about his performance, other than I kept staring at the visuals, going for once I'm interested in Marvel visuals. For once, like really, because I'm usually not that inter I usually they're just in service of their their quips and their stories, and they either do a good job or they don't, but I've never once went, Wow, that was a special effects extravaganza. I've just never thought that about those movies. I I don't know if it's at the level of 2001, it's nowhere near there, but it for a change it was something captivating. Yes, you know? It's not it's not at Blade Runner levels. I I don't know why Marvel can't. I w maybe we can answer this in the next two minutes. Why can't they do it? Is it just the quality of the story?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

Yeah, I don't know. I I I think that the further they lean into the comic aspects, the better quality movies we're going to start to get. Um and I think that we're they're starting to kind of come to that realization that like this is something that will probably work better for them. But until then, it's uh, you know, oh I mean there's so much oversight, I think, on the side of you know, the the corporate bottom line. Yeah. Um and I don't want to say that it's you know money is the only problem with what they've got, but you know I don't I think that for the most part there are there's so many things that they would like to do that they can't, or they you know I don't know. It's it's a hard, complicated process, I'm sure. And I've heard there are some directors of different movies from Marvel and others that are like, you know, I would have liked to have done this, but I was told I can't do that. And so in my mind, I'm thinking if the director is has their hands in all aspects of the production, but then is told that they can't be doing a lot of these different things, and here's stuff that you're only allowed to do, it's probably not going to make for a very either good or fully cohesive film. Um if they don't have that kind of creative freedom. Not to say that the director is always gonna do a great job.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

I I know, but so again, I have like with books and comic books, I'm always I've always been comic book first. Like just stick I I'm right with you, stick with the material, treat the material seriously, and you'll you'll have a good movie. I'm wondering if that will never lead to an apocalypse now in terms of the visual production or the visual output. It because comic books are for kids, let's face it, even today when they as much as they try, they're a kids' medium. But I I still think you have no, I mean, there are kids' movies that like Incredibles is one of them. I'd say Incredibles is one of my favorite movies of all time, you know, in terms of like I was just dazzled by it visually, and I don't think Marvels has ever even Marvel has ever reached a a level of visual wonder to the level of the Incredibles. You know, they've all I've always just thought their movies looked like TV Schlock, a little bit better than TV, but the Avengers for sure was TV Schlock, like barely better than what you get on the sci-fi channel. So, I mean it was a good movie, it's a solid adventure movie, and it it took took the series, the series or the characters seriously enough, but it's not a great visual movie, you know. And I just think that Marvel has never given me a movie that that's worthy of to be called cinema. And this is close, but I still say close, but no cigar. I can't say that it's it's it's like amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

Yeah. I I mean I can think of all the different ways that it would have been more interesting, and I'm sure we could spend another hour talking about them, you know. But even things like I mean, one of the big aspects of the Silver Surfer is like this aspect of freedom versus servitude and you know the the joys of being able to fly through the cosmos and all these different things. And you know, if we wanted to add more to these different characters, just have a couple shots like that, just visually interesting, like getting to see the vacuum of space and just the single silver mo you know surfer going through it and just experiencing the world briefly to give you that sense of like, oh there there is this sort of unfettered freedom of being able to explore the cosmos, but then it's you know overshadowed by Galactus following close behind.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

Plus, plus, they ignored the big lesson of the Silver Surfer, which is he to because he falls in love with Sue and all that, he's stripped of his ability to explore the cosmos and he's stuck on Earth. And I thought that was coming, and then okay, well then it'll be Johnny's girlfriend or whatever. But even that was over overlooked and cut out or whatever they did, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Yeah, it seemed like I think they probably maybe there was more they wanted to do with it, you know. But they're like, we gotta, you know, we we gotta hustle, we all we gotta you know appointments to make here, you know, and so just have the silver surfer go into the portal with Galactus, and there we go. It's all tidied and finished.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:46

It didn't feel finished. It's like, well, we know she's he or she, however they're gonna uh change it if they're gonna if they're gonna change it, is doomed to stay on Earth for I don't know, I don't know anymore, but that was the big deal back in the day.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:00

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Um now uh let's talk about my favorite aspect, which is music. So Michael Gacino versus John Murphy. Uh so I thought the Superman score was only okay when it brought in John Williams. I thought Michael Giacchino actually, and I mean this not as just a nerd, but as a sound track aficionado, deserves an Oscar nomination at the very least. The for the first time a Marvel movie had a great score, like a great, like toe-tapping, like balls of the walls, great score. Like, and it fit the movie entirely. He he totally deserves it. Like if he if he doesn't get an Oscar for this, I don't know what you know, they often give it to like just you know, art fair arthouse fair. I don't know why. To me, the best score is the movie that is the movie you the theme you remember and you start humming. And I was immediately humming the theme when I left the theater because it's a it's a cool theme, and it it was it was great. So there was that uh James Gunn is an a moron. You don't do Superman whooshing credits and play a pop tune, it just doesn't, yeah, it didn't work at all. Like you get a big F on the music count, James. It's it's not Guardians of the Galaxy, dumbass. You know, like it just isn't. It's Superman, and you got whooshing credits, which looked great, and it didn't work because you're you're I don't know the pop tune, I don't care. I was just like, that's when you play the John Williams music, dummy. You know, yeah and it's whatever. Wet fart of an ending for sure, you know. Yeah. Um, so there's that. Uh yeah, I just thought it was a again. I I didn't hate it when I walked out of the theater. I didn't go. Oh, that was I didn't go, oh, that was terrible. But when I think about it, I go, that's kind of terrible. So I don't know. I don't know what the deal is with Superman. I guess I have to see it again to decide. Fantastic four, I definitely want to see again. Superman, I don't want to see again. I I agree with that assessment.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:03

And I think that in terms of music, uh Fantastic Four, it it it sounded interesting. Like I I need to go back and listen to the entire soundtrack, but even just like the Fantastic Four theme, you know, the you know Fantastic. It's like pulled it off too. Cool, it didn't seem stupid.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:25

It's like he pulled it off.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

There's still that slightly campy aspect of like, yeah, we're gonna have them talk just saying their name. Yeah, like a cartoon of the lyrics, like a cartoon show. But it was so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:37

It was great. That's that is a that's a feat. It's a feat he didn't pull off with Spider-Man for sure. You know, which always bugged me, no end that he didn't use the original Spider-Man theme. He only hints at it the very first, you know, in uh Spider-Man Homecoming, where you're like, oh, this is good, oh great! He's gonna use the theme. Nope, didn't use it. And then, but this he wrote his own theme and it was it was original and it was cool, and it fit the baby motif. It has that sort of like little playroom crib theme, and then it develops into this big, huge space adventure theme. I I just thought he did amazing. I thought this is probably the best score I've heard in a long time, you know, and in a in a time when movie scores are just growls and groans, you know, and so finally a decent movie score. So there's that. Yeah, I immediately went and bought the cop off of iTunes and started listening to it. And I've listened to it like, yeah, this is uh thoroughly entertaining film music through throughout. And yeah, it's a repetitive, but most film scores are, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

Um, cinematography, we've talked about it. Fantastic four by a long shot. I didn't like again, I didn't like the wide angle. Editing, I'd say Fantastic Four for sure, especially the opening preamble. It definitely like that Superman preamble was a little strange, I thought. Yeah, you know, bound, down, down, down, down, down, down, down, and it just seemed a little like it. It's uh it was not a good way to start the movie, actually. Yeah, you know, with the text.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

Thirty years ago, three years ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

It was a little pretentious, and it seemed like, yeah, it seems like we could have done without all of that, and I wouldn't have cared, you know. He's about to lose his first fight right now, you know, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I thought you, yeah, we would have got it. We would have fully understood what was happening without that. Um that's it. So direction. I do I just I'm not I'm not a huge fan of James Gunn, as I've said. I think he's uh hugely overrated. He's this was average at best, and he's he is to me, it reminds me of the Matrix guys, the girls or whatever. They had one great or you know, solidly great. Well, the Matrix is great. Guardians of the Galaxy is no matrix. It's a good, solid movie. It's I like it. It's a it's a cohesive, good movie. Um he's been remaking it ever since. That's what I think. So and this is like, dude, you're making Superman. Why are you turning in Guardians of the Galaxy? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:24

Yeah, I don't know. I I I definitely think Fantastic Four was directed better. Yeah. And I also think that uh Fantastic Four, if there was any problems, it was that you know there it would have been nice for there to be more. You know, it was it was simple, it it felt like they had pared down a lot of things to just the barest minimum. Also, are are you gonna get into like supporting cast actors beyond what we've talked about?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:55

I thought I'd covered them, but sure. Lay it on.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:58

No, I just mean Mole Man.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:00

Oh, yeah. We wanted to address that. We talked about I talked about it, yeah. That was that was a weird thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

It was a miscast and you know, I think that they went with something they thought would be kind of a little bit comedic and just quick. Um, and unfortunately, like it I think the they showed with other aspects of the movie how effective it is leaning into the source material. And if you have this mole man character who is like, I mean, he's been living underground, devoid of human contact, and hates the people above.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:35

Plus, he has these people, he has these mole people, you know, the subdwellers, and they didn't even I thought they were gonna scream, I thought all everyone's gonna see the subdwellers and scream, you know. Yeah no, don't be scared of my subhumans, you know. But no, nothing none of that happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:51

Yeah, I mean, I think it would have been more fun being like, what would that guy actually be like? He's not gonna walk in there like a high roll or like, oh, well, I'm not gonna do it. Let's read asks me.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

Well, again, it's like Dr. Octavius in the comics. He's I I have a I have a Fantastic Four comics where they bring in Dr. Octopus to deal with Sue's radiation poisoning, and she's she's pregnant again. And uh he's like he's just grinding his teeth while Banner, Dr. Octopus, she uh who there's like this whole assortment of of doctors, I forget exactly, but he's like, You come to me because you're you need Octavius, you know, and so Hulk, so Banner and turns into the Hulk. This is when he can control a Hulk, and he's about to just smash the hell out of Dr. Octavus, and Reed comes in and he's like, Octavius, you will go back, you will help me, and you will go back to jail. And he's like, and he's like so forceful that Octavius just does it, you know, because Reed Richards is the man, right? Like he's the guy who like calms everything down, tells Banner to take you take a hike, and he tells Octavius. And that just I I did like when he when Reed calls him Mole Man, but it's uh that was the moment I thought that Reed was gonna take over and go, okay. But it's like, yeah, they played it too much for laughs, and then they made Sue the one. And that's like you're undermining Reed Richards at every turn. Again, I don't feel like this is a feminist thing and blah, blah, blah. I don't care. I just think, yeah, you really are the writers can't help themselves right now. They just have to make the girl the best. And it's not offensive. It wasn't like, oh, I feel so emasculated. But I'm just like, yeah, but Reed is the guy. And that scene is similar to typical Reed Richards stuff. Like, yeah, and I'm just, but I didn't like him anyway. That Richard Jewell actor, he he's just he's a he's a sitcom actor. He's cobra guy, and that's like, don't, yeah, he's a naked gun, too. Perfect. Stay in your lane, buddy. Why'd you cast him? That's like casting Christopher Walken and Dune. Like, what the hell? Like Patrick, the one time I'd want Patrick Stewart in a movie is like, yeah, you couldn't get Patrick Stewart or Ben Kingsley, you got Christopher fucking walken. It's the worst. You know, you know, it's just yeah. Anyway, all right. Final thoughts. Uh, you're gonna you're gonna buy any of these movies? Any of the movies going on your shelf?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

I I might consider buying Fantastic Four. Same. Um, I I it's been a while since I've seen a Marvel movie that I wanted to watch a second time, but yeah, that one is and only for the for the visuals.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:36

I like the I was fascinated by Galactus. I was like, I'd like to see those Galactus visuals, they were cool, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

I mean, uh Fantastic Four, I think, was some of the first comics that I ever read, and I started with the Silver Age, you know, original comics, and Galactus was cool to me back then, you know, it was a little crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:53

I never understood the fear of Galactus. Like, yeah, he's cool. He it's a Jack Kirby design, it looks cool. Yeah, yeah, it's it's complicated, but so what? So was every hero. You know, he's an alien with that big old head thing. It's complicated, it's weird, and I I love it. Yeah, I think with the that this is I just don't, yeah. I if I the Josh Tranks and the Tim stories of the world just can suck it. Now, I don't know if those are studio mandates or not, but it was that whole X-Men, oh, would you prefer yellow spandex when as they proved it wasn't that bad a thing. You know, like it was just a dumb attitude towards it. And I don't know if those I mean it sounds like Josh Trank definitely wasn't interested in comic books. He he considered himself above it, and then it's I don't know what where Tim's story is coming from. I mean, he was just I'd say he was just a hack they could push around based on the movies that he produced. You know, um they're just not they're not very good, you know. So anyway, yeah, uh that's it. That's all I got. Till next time, everybody. Great. Thanks, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:03

Thank you for listening to Fabulous Film and Friends, copyright twenty twenty five, a Bel Air Films production.