Conflict and Repair in Relationships with Connie Cornwell

Conflict is inevitable in relationships. The real question is what happens next.

In this episode of Therapist Unplugged, Laurie Poole reconnects with longtime mentor and respected couples therapist Connie Cornwell to explore one of the most important skills couples often lack: the ability to repair after conflict.

Laurie and Connie discuss why couples often get stuck in painful conflict cycles, how family-of-origin patterns shape the way we show up in relationships, and why flexibility has become increasingly important in modern partnerships.

They also explore the emotional skills that make repair possible—from learning to understand multiple perspectives to developing the ability to pause and observe our own reactions in the middle of conflict.

If you want better communication, deeper emotional intimacy, and a relationship that can grow instead of get stuck, this conversation is a great place to start.

Connie Cornwell, MA, LMFT-S, LPC-S, brings more than 30 years of experience as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, and Approved Supervisor. She is a Clinical Fellow and Approved Supervisor with the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy and a member of the American Family Therapy Academy. Connie serves as Senior Supervisor at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Family Studies Center in the Department of Psychiatry, where she trains and supervises interns, psychiatry residents, and medical students.

🎙️ Therapist Unplugged is produced by The Montfort Group, a boutique therapy practice based in Plano, Texas, helping individuals, couples, and families build emotionally intelligent, connected lives.

Subscribe for real conversations with real therapists, because healing doesn’t happen in perfect soundbites.

To learn more about our team or schedule a session, visit: www.themontfortgroup.com

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Connie Matters

Laurie Poole 0:28

Going to record to the computer. Well, welcome everyone to Therapist Unplugged. I am your host, Lori Poole, licensed professional counselor in Dallas, Texas. And today's guest is one of my favorite people, Connie Cornwell, uh LPC supervisor and LMFT supervisor. Connie is a highly respected couples and family therapist and clinical supervisor at UT Southwestern Medical Center, where I did my training under Connie's supervision. With more than three decades of experience, she trains therapists, supervises clinicians, and works directly with couples and families to help them build stronger, healthier relationships. Welcome, Connie.

Connie Cornwell 1:15

Thanks, Lori. Thank you for the nice comments. I, you know, I love my work. And so it's fun to reconnect with former people I've supervised. It really is. It's a choice.

Laurie Poole 1:27

Yes, you know, uh, I left the Family Study Center in 2015.

Connie Cornwell 1:31

2015?

Laurie Poole 1:33

2015. So it's been 11 years. It will be 11 years uh this this coming year. And you are always on my shoulder and in my head when I am doing couples work and things start to get escalated. I'm going to think to myself, now take a breath. Divine detachment, rise above.

Connie Cornwell 1:55

You are with me all the time. Well, you know, my supervisors are on my shoulder and head too. So I'm just kind of passing it on.

Laurie Poole 2:05

That's right. Well, it's a it's a it's a huge legacy for which I am eternally grateful. And I'm, you know, it's been a while for our listeners, Connie and I did an episode several years ago about relationships. And so I thought it would be fun to reconnect for today's episode to take a look at hey, have there been changes? Because I feel like there have been trends and there has been a shift in what couples are looking for when they come into therapy. And I'm just curious for you, Connie, in in all the cases and scenarios that you deal with, what do you think is the most common issue that brings people into therapy today?

Roles, Parenting, And Losing The Couple

Connie Cornwell 2:43

Well, I think the most common is pretty typical. It's where they're in high conflict or they're feeling like something's gone awry in their relationship. Okay. So that's been kind of consistent across the years. It's not until you start working the cases that you begin to appreciate the variety and the uh complexity of some of these cases. Yes. Yeah, see, the one thing I can say is that the old traditional model of uh, you know, this is kind of my parents' model too, I guess, you know, husbands, wives, uh, you know, wives took care of home, and husbands were kind of the breadwinner. Uh that was okay for a while until women kind of woke up and said, no, we want something more. And then we shifted into this trying to have dual careers and children. And that, and that has been, I think that's still ongoing. I think that couples sometimes are still struggling with that. Some couples manage it very well. Those couples probably had good role models in their family of origins, but a lot of couples don't, and they're still kind of struggling around what does it mean, one, to be a couple, and what does it mean to be parents? So I still see cases where they're focusing a lot of energy on the kids. They, you know, people want their kids to be successful and you know, prosperous. And then the couple's relationship is in the back burner sometimes. And so sometimes that needs to be refocused and realigned, not just for the couple's sake, but for the children. Because the children, the children need to see mom and dad connected and bonded.

Laurie Poole 4:33

They need to see them connected, they need to see them repair, they need to see all of those dynamics. And one of the things that I a phrase I use often in couples therapy, if what flows between the two of you is solid and healthy, the rest of it will follow.

Connie Cornwell 4:52

Well, sure. That that's kind of what we're looking at as couple and family therapists. Now, the world is changing. It's changing more rapidly than we could have imagined. And I think every institution on the planet is up for change and evolution. And I'm assuming that would include the institution of marriage. And so maybe future marriages or even the ones today may have more flexibility in some way. And that flexibility can take many different forms. I mean, there's some relationships that are polyanimous, you know, that's what they're into when both agree to that. There's some couples discovering that uh the their careers are so demanding, it requires them to have some separateness, physical separateness. So how do they manage that? How how do they stay connected? How how do they even have children? How do they share the co-parenting burden? You know? Yes, yes. Um, there's couples that I think that are in who've been married for a very long time who want to renegotiate things. Yes, you know, and it could look like, well, we've been this way always, where you've always made decisions on where we go for vacation and now it's my turn, you know. So they they've been stuck in certain roles that now in midlife or in later life, they kind of want to shake that up and revise that.

Laurie Poole 6:25

That's right, exactly. It it seems to me, if I've noticed anything, it is, and even in my own personal life, you know, as someone who has gone through some pretty major changes later in life, um, it's it seems to me that there is more of an approach to customize relationships because the traditional format based on economics and law just don't fit anymore. Exactly. And we have, and we have the introduction of technology, so long-distance relationships can become more manageable and in some cases desirable because of careers, because of individual interests, so that there is, I think you use the word flexibility. Pardon me. Seems to me there's more flexibility in understanding what a relationship is with the two individuals involved, as opposed to a big, uh, a more larger social context for what marriage and commitment means. Yeah, exactly. It's and it may no longer be relevant for many people.

Connie Cornwell 7:31

Well, it may not be. Um, I do think though, the driving need for each of us is having connection. And having an intimate connection. And I'm not talking about sexual necessarily, I'm talking about intimate connection, meaning I have someone I can turn to no matter what, and I can be vulnerable with that person. That person will always stand by me and accept me. Yes. I think that strong need is still there.

Laurie Poole 8:02

Um that's part of the human condition, as we just said. Exactly. That's not gonna change.

Connie Cornwell 8:08

Yeah, and and Sue Johnson pointed that out beautifully in her work and her years of research and doing emotionally focused couples therapy. She clearly defined that need, and I I think that's correct. That need doesn't go away. The the difference is how is that need getting met? What's the bounds of flexibility? How will they come together and do that? Yes. I'm thinking of a couple where they got married young, and let's say the one partner is wanting something different, something more, but doesn't know that the other partner will support them in that. Right. In other words, the one partner saying, My vision of my life and how I want to live it is kind of look, I want it to be different, not kind of like what we're doing. And therefore, do you feel that you can turn towards your partner and describe what you're wanting, trusting your partner will be there for you, at the same time, the other partner being able to say, Well, this is my vision, which may be a little different to your vision. So, how do we come together around those visions for our personal lives and build and trust and develop the stronger relationship? Or is this a signal that we go our separate ways?

Laurie Poole 9:32

That's a tough one.

Connie Cornwell 9:33

Yeah, it is a very tough one. I think as a therapist, we have to create the safety so they can have those very honest conversations with each other.

Marriage Models Are Shifting Fast

Laurie Poole 9:44

Absolutely. Because in my experience, too, when couples come in, it's it's not like someone teaches you how to be in a relationship. You know, most of us don't have terrific role models to follow. How do you have those kinds of difficult, hard conversations that require so much vulnerability and risk? The risk of rejection, the risk of not being understood or misunderstood, the risk of um things going south, you know. And so I think your point about creating safety in therapy so that couples can have some of those conversations and providing support, you know, to walk down that road is really important.

Connie Cornwell 10:27

Yeah, but see uh what I'm leading to, Lori, is this this is where flexibility comes in.

Laurie Poole 10:33

Yes.

EFT Versus Gottman And Deeper Change

Connie Cornwell 10:34

This is where the creation of the new form comes in. Do you see what I'm saying? I do. It's gonna come out of a need that we need to see how we stay connected or what that's gonna look like. It's kind of like I think that's the point at which there's flexibility that's gonna be created.

Laurie Poole 10:54

Yes, yeah.

Connie Cornwell 10:56

Yeah, relationship flexibility, yeah, and relationships. You know, I've been doing couples' work and family work for a long time. They the reason I'm doing it for a long time because they still fascinate me. And they're all unique, they're not all the same. And and one size therapy doesn't fit all either. So it keeps me in the game. And I'm thinking about a couple where we've had for a long time, and and EFT is where we're going because I teach interns about EFT because I think it's a good model that leads to second-order change. So I think there are couples that are not ready for the second order change. Oh so we go back and we do things like Gottman. Because Gottman is homework-driven, exercise driven, and that's what the couple could tolerate. Okay. Now, will that create the overall change in goal they want? Well, I think it's gonna just do a uh first order change, which is kind of symptom removal we talk about. Yes, yeah. Will it get to that second order change? Well, maybe eventually they will. I don't know.

Laurie Poole 12:11

That's so interesting because maybe, and I'm just thinking out loud with you now, maybe there's maybe an approach like Gottman, which is symptom removal actually opens the door for a deeper, a deeper dive into emotions that drive the patterns and the the emotions that get, you know, that music the couples hear when they start dancing together. And uh, and and so that's an interesting thought that for those who really want that kind of experience, using it as a gateway for something that could go deeper with time.

Connie Cornwell 12:52

But but the case I'm thinking about is that uh it could be that's as good as it gets. So the next intervention is to have a better understanding of the partner by bringing in the partner's parents. You see, what we have to remember is that a lot of people are so boxed in by their how they were raised in their family of origins. Absolutely. Absolutely. That really sucks. That I think there are those people that that can't quite break down the barrier. So uh we're thinking about maybe expanding things to to look at how that fits together. We particularly see this in marriages where uh one partner may be very raised Western style and the other one's raised eastern style, so to speak, and how the struggle is for the one partner who's come from a very traditional uh kind of family of origin where their expectations were high, loyalty is is deep, and they have to um kind of have to take a hard look at where they're coming from and how much of that is impacting the current relationship, particularly if their partner's not from their same culture. Yes, and we see a lot of this, and I I feel there's a real struggle, internal struggle, because it's like, well, this isn't how I was raised, and I was raised to told this is the way to do it, right? And so, but here I am in this relationship, it's not working too well, you know. And I I, you know, so then they lack some flexibility, and I think that lack of flexibility is fear and loyalty issues to the family board.

Laurie Poole 14:54

Oh, that's interesting. Fear and lack of loyalty to the family. Being loyal to the family boarding, yeah.

Connie Cornwell 15:02

Yeah, and and that can be heavy. That can be heavy because you know, some cultures to honor your parents and and even the grandparent generation is a good thing. That's right, but it becomes difficult when it doesn't match where you are and the relationship you're in now.

Laurie Poole 15:25

Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, that that would create a lot of internal. Yeah.

Connie Cornwell 15:31

Yeah. So here again, it's kind of like maybe we have to do a little more family of origin work.

Laurie Poole 15:37

Yeah, you know, in whatever form to Yeah, that's I think that's really, really important because you know, it's and it's also in my experience, um, when when clients have the context of how family of origin influences what they're experiencing in a relationship, it it's almost like a oh now I get it. This makes sense. Of course I would show up this way. Of course I would hate it when things get really loud. Or, you know, I remember that how my father would dismiss my mother when she would bring a concern and he would just turn his back and walk away. And, you know, things like fear, and of course, we we can't help but talk about some attachment um styles that get developed, that kind of where we have that blueprint that gets laid down in in those really, really early years in our family.

Connie Cornwell 16:36

Yeah. So I'm uh in supervising people who are doing EFT. Um, you know, more chances than not we have to kind of let's slow down and let's get some Famivorgin work understood or completed for both of the partners so that can aid you and understand the context in which they're trying to live in.

Laurie Poole 17:01

Yes. Understand the context in which they are trying to live.

Connie Cornwell 17:07

Because we can't assume anything, you know that. It's just starting, yeah. And then you're talking about attachment styles. Um I'm how can I put this? I'm less concerned about what is the attachment style. Right. Which is it's fluid, isn't it? It's so fluid. It's so fluid. I mean, you know, uh and so I'm trying to help the interns understand I gotta get the attachment. Well, understand attachment styles. Absolutely, you got to. But that person may appear like they're anxious and avoid it, or they may appear appear fearful, and it changes over time.

Laurie Poole 17:50

That's right. That's right.

Connie Cornwell 17:52

You know, it's it's because it's dynamic, it's not static, and and you can't, as soon as you label somebody in a certain way, it becomes static, and you have no possibility for movement because it's very fluid, you know, and it's very, very dynamic. Because I'll have interns say, well, I thought they were this way, but now they don't seem to be. Of course not.

Repair Skills And Multiple Realities

Laurie Poole 18:19

No, that's right. It's so interesting. Um, and it didn't because it's process. It's process. It is, absolutely. And that's a I think that's a newer way um of thinking about it as a therapist, because you know, we think about pursuit, withdrawal, you know, the dances that show up in relationships, which I think is continues to be a very fun uh way to describe what happens with a couple, that the problem is the way they're dancing together, it's not each other, right? You know, but this dance is so painful, but there's some good parts to it too. But sometimes when you're stepping on one another's toes, it's really, really painful.

Connie Cornwell 19:02

And the channel you know, a pursuer becomes a reactive withdrawal, withdrawer becomes a reactive pursuer, and that that can happen right in the room.

Laurie Poole 19:10

Yes. Oh my goodness, in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat. You know, one of the things that Esther Perel has said that one of the biggest issues in couples' work, and probably within families too, but that the ability

Connie Cornwell 19:28

to repair is lacking, that couples don't have our missing tools to uh repair when there's conflict, that it's not the conflict or the tension that's the issue. It's how do you repair? I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that. Well, I agree with 100%. I mean, we see people sitting in front of us who are lacking repair skills. You know, and that's why I think EFT has been so potent, because it's actually helping people understand at a deep, vulnerable, primary emotional level what's driving the conflict.

Laurie Poole 20:06

Yeah.

Connie Cornwell 20:07

And that understanding is a way towards repair. Because now I understand why you're doing this because that's what you've been really feeling. I didn't know that, you know.

Laurie Poole 20:19

Yeah.

Connie Cornwell 20:20

So repair work is kind of built into, I think, the EFT model. Yes, absolutely. I think that couples after a while become so set in their positions and maybe even defending their our their positions that they forget that the other has a position too, that there's different realities here. Absolutely. So maybe as you're asking this, and I'm just kind of brainstorming, maybe part of repairing is being able to have that ability to understand multiple realities. That's right. Because if I'm I yeah, if I'm stuck in my reality, and my reality is, you know, I'm angry with you, and I'm gonna, every chance, I'm gonna, you know, make sure you know that, then you're not able to go outside that and think, well, I'm wondering what what's really going on with the other. Could the other have a different reality? So I think that ability um is so clear to me. And I think I learned this as a little girl, sitting at the dining room table with my parents, and my mom turning to my dad, and she was very upset about how someone had treated her. And my dad looking at my mom and said, Yeah, but I wonder if what was going on with her was this, which helped explain the other's behavior. So I I saw that, and I began to realize that we have to maintain in with ourselves, you know, that we have a reality, but somebody, everybody else does too. And their realities are based on their lived experiences. That's right. And and multiple things can be true at the same time. That's right. So I think one of the things that therapy does, it's giving voice to all the realities in the room. Absolutely. And people are are hearing it, and and once they hear it, they can't. Quite be the same. They may kind of appear like they're in the same rut, but they can't quite be the same because there's something new that's been presented. And see, Lori, if you look at it, the reason our world is so crazy right now is because we have leaders who cannot think about multiple realities. That's right.

Laurie Poole 22:50

There's only left they only have one.

Connie Cornwell 22:53

Yeah. They only have one. Which feeds their ego. And so it's being able to become comfortable in appreciating others' lived experiences, right? And then it also becomes the ability to be, this is key, observer of the self.

Laurie Poole 23:13

Can you talk more about observer of the self? I love that.

Connie Cornwell 23:19

Well, I'm sure you've experienced it. For me, it's when I have a thought or I'm about to react, and there's this voice inside kind of observing me, going, hmm, do you really want to do that? Or is that the only thought you can have? It's like you have an internal observer that is literally observing, I think, your ego self. Let's put it that way.

Laurie Poole 23:46

Okay.

Connie Cornwell 23:48

And your ego is not a bad thing unless it rules you. And then if it's ruling you, then you're then a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I Eckhart's Hole's book, The Power Within, describes it so beautifully. And so uh I have, and hopefully it operates most of the time, although it doesn't every time, have an observer self, which is I think also needed. Because you're stepping outside of what is here in the interaction, and you're able to again take that bigger lens view, you know. You can then think about what maybe the other's lived experience is creating this. Yes.

Laurie Poole 24:31

And I think in the heat of the moment, it can be very tough in relationships to pause and to have that self-observation because the emotion can really drive the interaction. The reaction to the emotion can drive the interaction. And then before you know it, we've gone to the moon and there's World War III.

A Practical Repair After Conflict

Connie Cornwell 24:55

But it's it's uh you're you're up yeah, and see, I think that's I think that's the beauty of the EFT couple's work. Because it is actually slowing things down so that that can get teased out. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Or or any good emotional work.

Laurie Poole 25:17

Connie, what can you can you give listeners an example of what a good repair might be after an argument or after sort of um disagreements that are you know pretty intense?

Connie Cornwell 25:30

Well, okay, you're asking a question about repair. About repair. Uh it's pretty typical in the therapist office, but are you asking about repair otherwise?

Laurie Poole 25:42

I'm I'm thinking, well, you know, listen, there's it's a loaded question. I know it's probably not a great one. I'm just thinking in terms of practical takeaways for listeners, like what is an example of a good repair? What does that sound like? You know, maybe it is. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Connie Cornwell 26:00

Um yeah, there's layers to that. Uh for your listeners, I think that when they find themselves in the conflict or in the withdrawal, okay, both of those things can be uh not good for relationships. That when they find themselves in that, I think the first thing you have to do is push the pause button. And then you have to think about, whoa, uh, what's really driving this outburst, or what's driving me withdrawing, if you can. And then you have to, I think, turn to the other and say, I got your rage, I got your anger. Help me understand your experience. Now that can add to more reactivity, because they're gonna say, Well, I'm angry because you and then if the other can listen to, I'm angry because you did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is how they usually end up. And if you can in if you can silently, silently listen without being reactive, which is not easy, then are you able to turn back to the other and say, and are you willing to hear why I'm angry? And then the repair comes with understanding, but then the repair comes with a couple, and I think couples can do this, making the decision that the love and bond they have between them is more important than what the fight is.

Laurie Poole 27:46

Yeah, that makes sense.

Connie Cornwell 27:48

That's shown up beautifully in these past couple or this last year. Because we have couples who are on the divide, the political divide.

Laurie Poole 27:58

Yes.

Connie Cornwell 27:59

And MPR has been interviewing this couple several times, uh staunch Republican, staunch Democrat. And they have met with the couple, and it's a beautiful, beautiful kind of interaction. And they've talked about, and they both said, Well, I'm not gonna change her mind. She's not changing my mind. But the thing we have in common is the love and the bond and the re and how much we respect each other. Beautiful. And they said that's what keeps us connected as a couple. We know we have agreed to disagree, and that's okay because our love, our history, our bond is much stronger. Now that couple found a way to stay connected during this. When there are other couples, it's really created severance in the relationship. So again, maybe the key to repair is very simple. Is choosing love.

Laurie Poole 29:10

The key to repair is choosing love. I think sometimes we forget how simple solutions can be. Yeah, that makes so complicated on so many levels. But just what you said, it's choosing love.

Connie Cornwell 29:27

I mean, I I'm all for repair, but even the word repair makes me feel kind of weighted down, like I'm gonna go out and fix the car. Change the oil, do an engine check. Or oh now, that went wrong in the house. I'm gonna have to get that repaired. I mean, you know, it it's it's it's interesting. As I get older, language is so powerful, and language defines us more than we realize. And sometimes the language we use puts us in a box. That's very true, Connie. That's very true. I'm uh I just finished reading a book about um what's it called? In j justifying um, it's about justice. It is written by a lady from Australia, and she said the powerful thing, the book, she says we have to take justice out of a noun and make it a verb and make it more relational. And I thought, how many words have been so and they've been become such a noun there in concrete, you know? Yeah, and how we need to take those words and take them verbs, yeah, where there's a process, where there is in the process there can be progress too. And we have fluidity. And when you take a noun, you change it to a verb, the thing I experience is freedom. Justice to justifying. Wow, that frees me up.

Laurie Poole 31:11

I'm taking this all in. Wow. Play with words. Play with words, I'm taking this all in.

Connie Cornwell 31:19

And I I have to uh give credit to Harry Galician, who was a supervisor of mine, oh, eons ago. And he's no longer alive, but he said one thing, something that stuck to me. He said, you know, as soon as you name it, then it becomes it. Yeah. And he was referring to back then, uh I'm not sure who coined it. Was it Reagan? War on drugs. And I remember him saying, you know, now we're gonna have war. And we did. We did. It was a messy, messy war on drugs. So he said to uh in supervision, he said, you know, as soon as you name a thing, it becomes c it becomes the thing.

Laurie Poole 32:05

Yeah.

Connie Cornwell 32:07

Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes an awful lot of sense. You know, we're gonna do war on this and war on that. Well, that's what we get is war. We get that. If you change that to we are here for peace, and we are doing the things that are creating peace, that shifts it entirely. So I think, you know, we need to think about the words we're using, yeah.

Fear Under The Fight And Choosing Love

Laurie Poole 32:37

Absolutely, we do. We do. Spelling is a spell, right? Like it's like the power of words, you know, exactly. Connie, I have a couple of questions to ask you before we before we close today. What do couples usually think their problem is when they come into therapy? And what do you often discover the real problem is?

Connie Cornwell 33:03

Well, couples come in in two ways. A lot of them come into high conflict that takes time to de-escalate. And then there's some couples that come in very withdrawn. So, you know, basically, I see my job and what I'm trying to train the interns to do is to create that safety. So, and the rapport, so then we can help them, empower them to uncover what's there. Usually what's there for me over the years is some form of fear. We're we're very fearful. Very, very you know, it's fear about I'm not good enough, it's uh I'm not smart enough, I'm I'm not pretty enough, uh, I'm not worthy, uh, no one could love me. I mean, it's the fears that are wired in us unconsciously at times drives our life. And I remember uh in the Course in Miracles, all this quote is so stuck in my mind. And the Course in Miracles, which was actually uh channeled through a psychologist at Harvard, uh who made it anonymous. I'm gonna make this anonymous. I don't want anybody to know. And the Course says there's only two things that exist in the universe, and that's love and fear. Fear is the illusion. And I think about that when I'm I'm uh doing my life. I think about that when I'm working.

Laurie Poole 34:47

Yes, yes, yes. Oh my goodness, this is really, this is really resonating. Love and fear, and fear is the illusion.

Connie Cornwell 34:57

It really is. And and you know, that comes from a very um comes from a spiritual place, obviously. But I believe that we're all spiritual beings having a human experience. So for me, it it that fits and it resonates. And I and I I think it drives some of my therapy because someone will say, well, how can you step into that? It's very scary. And I said, But I have to step into it, because that part's not really real. What we have to do is to help people uncover who they are and you know, love, discover them their own sense of love and connection because love and connection goes together, you know, even connection and loving self.

Laurie Poole 35:38

Yes, yeah, you know, one of the things that I've observed, Connie, the lot the longer I am uh doing couples and even individual therapy is that the relationship with self, even in couples therapy, is so important. It's critical because the relationship with yourself, emotional intimacy with yourself, the understanding, the observation of self. Am I gonna say this? Am I gonna say that? Wait a second, let me just step back. That is a critical piece of couples work, and it is through the connection with your partner that you can evolve relationship with self, not only with your partner, but within. Yeah, because that's where all roads lead from that.

Connie Cornwell 36:25

Yeah, and and and what you're talking, what you're talking about is what Bubler talked about eons ago, because he focused on the I then uh, and it was all about this the struggle with the self and the other, you know how how and if from a very high spiritual consciousness you believe we are definitely all one, there's no separateness. That's right.

Laurie Poole 36:53

Oh my god, Connie, you never fail to blow me away. I just gotta share that with my listeners. I'm having an existential experience listening to you because so much of this resonates not only as a therapist, but where I'm at at this stage of my life. Okay, good. You know, and um it's so interesting and very exciting as an aside, although we're talking about relationships, I think this is also pertinent. The idea that in our third act we arrive, you know, that we maybe have the answers to things, that we know who we are, that we give, we give fewer shits about things, that we have a greater capacity to say no. What I'm finding uh right now is that the continuum of development and evolution and soul-level introspection continues, and it's so exciting to know that we have this capacity for growth, expansion, self-reflection, risk taking. It's not about sitting on a porch in a rocking chair, it's it's really, you know, asking some tough questions, which in relationship, I think what we see reflected in that is that there are relationships that drop off. There are marriages for whom the expiration date has been reached, and it is time to move on to something else that serves our needs, or we're less tolerant of being in relationships where needs aren't being served. And despite attempts for that, it's not working, and head and heart are no longer aligned.

Connie Cornwell 38:42

Well, no, well, let me let me share this with you. This is because I think this fits this podcast. I've been listening to Pam Gregory uh on YouTube. She is a British astrologer, and she I love listening to her because I love her accent, but she also invites all kinds of guests in. And what's made clear to me, which I've known for many, many years, is that humans are moving into different levels of consciousness. You know, we're in the third dimension, but the fourth dimension is there for us. But people she's interviewing are saying, uh, don't stop there. There's a fifth and sixth and seventh dimension that you actually, in human form, even, can accomplish, but you have to keep your intention clear. And I think that intention has to focus on not the negativity in the hubba hubba, which we all are in. But you have to keep focusing on that higher perspective, that that spiritual perspective that which really is about focusing on love. Here again, choosing love. Choosing love because that's the vibration of those higher dimensions. And we're we're move, I think we're actually moving through because more and more people are waking up to other kinds of experiences that are not just grounded in third dimension, right?

Laurie Poole 40:14

Yeah.

Connie Cornwell 40:14

And you may have be having your own experiences with that. Um, I certainly am feeling that becoming more and more um energized by that, if nothing else.

Laurie Poole 40:25

Yes, no, exactly. Exactly. Well, and what else matters if there isn't love? What else matters? Exactly. What is something about relationships that people don't want to hear, but you know from experience is true.

Connie Cornwell 40:46

Oh, I have to think about that one, Lori. Uh they don't want to hear, but I know that's true. Um what's something about relationships? I think just what we've been talking about. See, here's the issue: people in relationships get stuck. They get stuck in their positions and needing to be right. Yeah. And you're wrong. And I think the thing they may not want to hear is that, oh, the other may be right too. Yeah. What if you're both right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you're both wrong. You know, and it doesn't matter, you know. But I think that's is the old uh third-dimension level of thinking. Well, it lacks flexibility. There's no flexibility in that. And and you know, what's interesting right now is how where we are in the world, and I'm looking globally, how we've kind of gone back to clinging to that old model. The reason is because the new model's here. And there are people who want to cling to the old. And the more they cling to the old, the more it's validation for me that we're moving forward. You know, the new model is broken through.

Laurie Poole 42:01

The new model is broken through, and maybe there's fear about what that new model is.

Connie Cornwell 42:08

That's right. Because you know this as a therapist, people cling to even discomfort simply because it's familiar. Familiar, absolutely. And you can pointly you can point, hey, there's something better, but how do I know that? I uh at least, even though this is awful for me, at least I I know it, you know. I understand. And so, and I think that's exactly where the planet's at. Exactly right there. Wow. And everybody's a choice. You want to cling to this and stay stuck in this, yeah, because you're you're it's familiar and even though it's awful, or do you want to risk going into the unknown, trusting that you'll be fine? Yes, yes, yes. And see, I think maybe our clients are microcosm of what exactly is going on at the global level.

Laurie Poole 43:04

Beautiful. Connie, that is a perfect place to close our conversation. Our clients are a microcosm of what's going on at the global level.

Connie Cornwell 43:16

Well, this has been so much fun, Lori. And thank you for inviting me again.

Laurie Poole 43:20

Oh, thank you for a mind-blowing conversation. I gotta hang up and process all of that, said the Canadian. Did you hear the Canadian in me? Process. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even after 20 years, I can't bring myself to say y'all here in Texas.

Connie Cornwell 43:37

Guys, is fine. That's that's what we say up north. Or I love you're a mild about how do you see it? About out, out and about.

Laurie Poole 43:45

Out and about, I think, I think Minnesota is probably as close and maybe the upper peninsula of Michigan are those are the two places where Canada's having maybe a little influence in a way in our pronunciation. But Connie, thank you very, very much for your time today. This has just been fabulous. Uh, we have we've we've had some very provocative topics, and I know that uh and it's been a provocative conversation. And I hope that our listeners' takeaway is that there's different ways of thinking about things and that flexibility and love are key. Thank you so much, Connie. You're so welcome. Thank you. It was fun. Okay, take care, take care.