49 - Wild Swimming with Dr Adrian Baker & Leanne

Episode 49 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Dr Adrian Baker & Leanne about wild swimming. Adrian, a GP in Nairn in north-east Scotland, is an avid wild swimmer as well as having also had Long Covid and recovered from it. Leanne, also from Nairn, has had her life completely transformed by wild swimming and hearing her story is incredibly inspiring for anyone listening.

We chat through both Adrian & Leanne's experiences as well as some really useful advice & information for anyone looking to get into wild swimming.

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(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

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Jackie Baxter  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am delighted to welcome as my guests this evening, Dr. Adrian Baker and Leanne. And we are going to be talking about wild swimming and COVID. And how wild swimming can help some people with long COVID. But also wider health benefits as well. So welcome both of you to the podcast. 

Leanne  0:23  
Hello. 

Adrian Baker  0:23  
Hello

Jackie Baxter  0:24  
So to start with, would you mind just introducing yourselves a little bit?

Leanne  0:29  
Well, my name is Leanne. I'm 49 in three days, I have three children. I work in the hospital. And yeah, I am an addict to open water swimming, really.

Adrian Baker  0:44  
I'm Adrian Baker, I'm a GP, also, funnily enough, got three kids that are completely different. I've been here in Nairn in the north of Scotland for over 20 years and been out and about in the water for many decades doing stuff.

Jackie Baxter  1:06  
Oh, amazing. Well, thank you both so much for coming along tonight. So let's talk COVID a little bit first, Adrian, you've had long COVID and recovered, is that right?

Adrian Baker  1:17  
Yeah, yeah, I was one of the lucky ones to get it over the first round, in March 20. And we all saw it coming with all the various news channels from China, Italy and Spain and stuff. And then it arrived in the UK. We probably saw our first cases here in early March. And by mid March three of the GPs here had got pretty unwell with it. And I was off work for about 10 days, and you know, pretty much full blown symptoms. Not quite hospitalized, but close enough, thank you. And obviously, just tried to come back to work and like most people thought I'll be fine, and didn't quite make it past lunchtime on the first day, went home and had a sleep. Same again, second day and so on. And yeah, it just took a phenomenally long time to recover any form of fitness and I was reasonably fit before it. But yeah, just took a very long time to get back to normal unfortunately.

Jackie Baxter  2:19  
Yeah, sounds a sort of familiar story from a lot of people unfortunately. Was there anything specific that you did that really helped? Because I think, certainly what I wanted to start with, was something that I could do. Was there anything that sort of stood out for you?

Adrian Baker  2:38  
Sounds a bit weird, but actually getting back to work was quite helpful for me. Because it was a pretty busy time. There's lots of new stuff going on. We didn't quite know how serious it was going to be. I suppose that kept me ticking over, kept me working and stuff. But the flip side was there wasn't much room for anything else, just extreme tiredness, just absolutely knackered most of the time. But that certainly helped with just being able to problem solve, social aspects of it. Socializing with other people, invariably, one by one, everybody caught it here over time, and feeling that you're doing something useful. So all of that really helped. Yeah. And then I wasn't really able to exercise in any shape or form really for quite a number of months afterwards.

Jackie Baxter  3:27  
But you have made a sort of, would you call it a full recovery?

Adrian Baker  3:31  
I would now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, pretty much back to normal. But it's been quite a gradual. I mean, it's been a very gradual recovery over a very long time. And one of the last things to go, for me, was the chest pains. You get this, I've seen it a lot with people who've had a bad dose COVID, is really bad breast bone pain. Got inflammation of the breastbone, where the ribs joined the breastbone. And fortunately, I know what it is. But lots and lots of people have had that. And it's it's almost one of those things that yeah, you've definitely had COVID because you've got this pain, we don't normally see it. I mean, see it maybe one patient every year or two. But an awful lot of people who've had COVID get this breast bone pain, which means that you any physical movement, or deep breaths are painful. So if you're turning, twisting, bending, lifting stuff or exercising, so you get out breath, you develop this recurrent, severe pain which in the back of your mind goes, you know, I shouldn't be getting chest pain. This isn't good

Jackie Baxter  4:42  
It's terrifying isn't it? 

Adrian Baker  4:44  
You know, pick up the phone to say about chest pain. Well, all hell breaks loose doesn't it? Get ambulances and all sorts, so we know chest pain is not good. And that took a long, long time to completely go - probably about 18 months. That's a long time for something like that. And it's Yeah, it's away now. But it's taken that length of time, which is quite extraordinary really.

Jackie Baxter  5:05  
It's really positive that you have recovered, though. I see it in support groups a lot. Does anyone ever recover from this? And you know, I've spoken to people who have, and I have to keep reminding myself, as well as other people, that people do you recover from this. But on your worst days, when you're feeling terrible, it's kind of hard to believe that sometimes, isn't it? So I think, I think we need to hear it.

Adrian Baker  5:27  
Yeah, I think don't give up - gradually doing a wee bit more and pacing yourself, having plenty of rests in between, being good to yourself, and hell, Yeah, going swimming -certainly helps, as well as lots of other things. Yeah, all of these things really help. And I think everyone's concentrated on COVID, on the virus and avoiding getting it but we've also avoided other people. And that's, that's not been good for people's mental health either. And that you've not necessarily been out with you socializing in a way that you used to. And that's been it's been really difficult for a lot of people.

Jackie Baxter  6:01  
Yeah, you're right. And that very neatly leads me on to my next question, which was about wild swimming, because that's what brought us all here together tonight. So this is something that I've started doing in the last three or four months. And it's made a real difference to me. But what is it? I guess, for people that don't really know? And why is it so beneficial?

Adrian Baker  6:23  
Well, in terms of swimming, I mean, I've done stuff in open water for a long, long time, swimming, surfing, going into cold water in the winter. It's good fun, doing some form of sport or other. And then eight years ago, I started training for a big outdoor triathlon and did start doing a lot of open water swimming then and swam through the winter then, and that was a whole different ballgame. There's no escape when you're in, in the North Sea. No, in winter, paddling away. And you come out and what is it about it? I mean, Wim Hof has popularized it, and has got some really good, good stuff out there. So if you're really interested, go and have a look at a lot of his stuff. There are a number of interesting changes that happen, I think, when you're swimming, but I'll let Leanne just say, how you got started and why you got started. So I suppose that's probably better than me droning on.

Leanne  7:20  
So my story, I think it was in 2017, I became quite poorly, and ended up getting diagnosed with fibromyalgia. But I was a full time mom and a full time job. And unfortunately, the drugs they put you on when you have Fibro is not the most pleasant, you know, it just wasn't agreeing with me because I worked permanent night shifts. So the tablets they had me on, it just was a no go. And when, because Adrian was actually my doctor at the time, and mentioned, you know, sea swimming. And I was like, Who would want to go in the sea. I said what idiot would swim in the cold.

Adrian Baker  7:59  
So we had a big argument.

Leanne  8:00  
But eventually, it took me - I don't know, I've tried my first time in and I was in five minutes and I got out, I hated it. And then about six months later, I just - I don't know. And then it just finally realized once I got in the water, the pain subsided. I could function because my like my thermostats completely broken. So I'm always overheating. And it just gave me my life back. Because you know, it was you know, a permanent night shift, full time job, kids, it just gave me a way of functioning again. And that's the way I've kept under control ever since, you know, and then it just led to loads of other things and I got a lot of friends coming to join. Then I started doing a lot of fundraising and charities and swam in the sea for a whole year. I'm did a challenge which I did from January to January in a swimsuit. It was - I ended up doing it for Mikey's line, raised about three and a half thousand pound. 

It's something kept me on that, you know, it just keeps me going. It keeps my head in a really good place. Because it doesn't always - like everybody else, depression has been a battle for me for a long, long time. And it's been my go to and I've introduced, where I work, they all thought I was a complete and utter idiot. And now I've got on the ward I have basically 99% of everybody swimming Now, apart from one per cent, which I won't say on the radio what they tell me to do, but they won't they won't join me, they said. 

So that's kind of how it all came about for me. And so that's been since 2017 And I mean, I never thought I'd be doing the things I've done. I've done theKessock Crossing twice, I swam a distance I didn't think I would ever ever do. I mean I'm happy in the ocean - if I could grow gills I would be in my element. And so that for me, and then I just recently got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis about six weeks ago. And again, it's just, as I say, it's amazing what it's done that keeps my inflammation - it's like my specialist was like your joints don't coincide witjh RA but because I live in the water it's kept everything at bay. So he's just quite keep swimming. I say, I will! 

Jackie Baxter  10:02  
Oh that sounds amazing. You've done a lot better than me staying in for five minutes your first time, 

Leanne  10:08  
it gets better. This takes time. 

Jackie Baxter  10:10  
I was in and out in about 10 seconds, I think the first time, but I'm a lot better now. But yeah, you touched on inflammation just there. And that is something that a lot of people have as an underlying cause, if not the underlying cause of long COVID. So I guess that's certainly something that you can help keep under control by doing the cold water.

Leanne  10:33  
I mean, I'd come off I mean, I mean, I take paracetamol, honestly, it's like just the vitamin C is all - it's just amazing, what it does. And I mean, it's one of those things, you can't even describe to people until they've tried it. And once they do it, then they realize. And the health benefits I've seen from a lot of people, especially friends of mine, who thought I was a complete idiot, totally now don't think I am anymore. You know, a lot of them had a lot of problems. And they've seen a huge change in their life, you know, and it's down to pain management and things. There's a lot to be said, once you get over the cold water shock. It does get better.

Jackie Baxter  11:09  
Yeah, it does get easier. The more you do it, I think. Although it's warming up as well being the summer now. So I think that helps a bit as well. Yeah.

Adrian Baker  11:16  
I don't think it makes much difference in Loch Ness, but it certainly does on the coast.

Jackie Baxter  11:19  
Aye that's right enough, actually, we went in the sea about a month ago. And it was like, Whoa, it's just like a hot tub. 

Leanne  11:25  
Yeah, it's amazing. 

Jackie Baxter  11:27  
I found when I started going into the cold water that I struggled with my breathing - and breathing was something I struggled with to start with with long COVID, right from the start, I couldn't breathe, and then it sort of didn't really get better for a long, long time. And I've now spent a long time working on my breathing, and it's improved. And I still found when I tried to go in the water that my instinct was to hyperventilate, which obviously is quite a dangerous thing when you're in water. So I found that controlling my breathing was huge. Have you got any kind of tips around that, other than not hyperventilating? Obviously. Because I guess that's quite a natural reaction, isn't it when you go into the cold water,

Leanne  12:05  
I think so - a lot of people have introduced, that was the first thing they did, and so as soon as now anyone new comes in, it's like, all I do is I get them to go into the water really gradually. And we get them to splash the back of their neck. And then I just get them to do slow breathing in and out, and before they know it they're up to their neck, it's just all about that - it does the breathing is really important. 

And that was a life lesson I learned because when I first I was the same, but I literally was, you know, thrown at the deep end because I swam with these guys a few times and didn't keep up very well. So I was still struggling with my breathing. But it does come once you learn, somebody sometimes need to teach you. And once you do that, you know, because I say, a lot of girls now go in and they're just brilliant. And they go and teach other people who join them. And it's just a matter of getting the hang of your breathing - long and slow

Adrian Baker  12:52  
The cold water shock is really well documented. So if you you're not accustomed to it and you go straight in, you're going to hyperventilate, that's just the way it is - that's how your body reacts to a cold shock. But it only takes five to seven immersions, five to seven days for that to completely stop. So if you do it on consecutive days, five to seven days, then you're completely back to normal breathing then and you can breathe. If you're a swimmer, then you start off - because you're going to be a little bit tense and not that relaxed. But you start off breathing, every stroke or every third stroke, either side or every second stroke, whatever works for you. And then as you get more and more used to it, generally just slow down the outward breath. And then just take your single breath over  your whichever armpit you're gonna use, whichever one your stroke is. And then really long, slow, deep breaths. 

And you'll find some people who are really quite proficient breathing every fifth or seventh stroke. So they're really, really efficient swimmers. They're not using much, much oxygen and they're tootling along. 

But the the other thing you find is your pulse rate drops significantly, in cold water - it's called the diving reflex. So put your head into cold water, your pulse will slow down, your breathing slows down. And it's sort of leftover prehistoric reflex from many, many, many millions of years ago, but it's still there. And that's generally what people use, and Leanne's method of getting in and really slowly introducing people to that on consecutive occasions, without anyone having a bad experience, just increases confidence massively. And then then people tootle off and go for a  swim and, you know, doesn't matter how you swim - you can go backstroke and you get upset or worried just flip onto your back and relax. Keep your head out. A lot of people like to swim breaststroke, that's absolutely fine. It's great. Occasionally putting their head in 

What was It's really interesting about inflammation is that a lot of people have come back with having really positive experiences from different types of arthritis. I mean, obviously, osteoarthritis is old age, wear and tear. It's a sort of thing that I've got the pleasure of in my hands. But if you go into cold water, that disappears within a few weeks, and Leanne is finding that it's keeping her rheumatoid arthritis under control, there are quite a few other people who experienced exactly the same. So it's incredibly powerful the mechanism for it, I don't think there will ever be any trials for it, because there's not any money to be made out of it. 

But the cold water. I think there's there's a couple of things that happen with it, you produce endorphins, body's natural opiates, so you get that sort of pain relief aspect to it. That's not just while you're swimming, that lasts for the whole day after you've been in pain, you will experience a bit of a feel good. So there's the endorphin aspect to it. That's probably Baker's theory, but but the cold hands, actually getting your hands super cold, stimulates micro capillaries and micro circulation to form - certainly helps the arthritis. So you've got you're developing tiny, small new blood vessels, which is stopping arthritis and perfusing areas there and cooling areas that are otherwise pretty hot and painful. Definite effect. I mean, people with arthritis in their feet or their hands, huge effects, huge effects from really cold water. And and we're talking single digits, aren't we really? 

Leanne  16:37  
Oh, yeah, absolutely. 

Adrian Baker  16:40  
But it works. It's amazing. I mean, lots and lots of people have come back and said it's transformed, and stopped people taking large quantities of medication with significant side effects. 

Leanne  16:52  
And it's free - doesn't cost you anything! 

Adrian Baker  16:54  
freezing 

Leanne  16:55  
free. Free. The sea is free, free, 

Adrian Baker  16:57  
free and freezing!

Jackie Baxter  16:59  
You're right. Yeah. And Scotland's definitely the place to be if you're wanting freezing, isn't it? Pretty sure Loch Ness hasn't warmed up yet. 

Leanne  17:06  
Does it ever?

Jackie Baxter  17:08  
Yeah, you were talking just then, Leanne, about going with people. That's probably a good idea, isn't it, when people are first starting off?

Leanne  17:15  
Oh, 100% 100%. You know, and I think people feel safer in numbers too, don't you? You know, and it's just all about staying within your limits. And when you're there and just knowing when you're, you know, a lot of people say to me, Oh, I can't swim. And it's like, you don't have to be able to - you know, all you have to do is paddle. You stay you know, and just be with somebody because even just submerging yourself in that cold water is all you need. And as I said having that one or two, three part doesn't make - it's a confidence thing you know, for me now, you know, I'll dondle along by myself. If I'm going out the way I always like company, it's just nice to have that. There's always someone more experienced than you are, you know, so I lean on other people, people lean on me. And it's nice, you know, we have a huge swim community now that we never had before. I set up a Nairn and selkies swim group, it's sitting at 107 people.

Adrian Baker  18:05  
I mean, it's been absolute revelation here. There's a doctor, probably about 100 years ago, who sold Nairn as the Brighton of the north and advocated saltwater bathing, and there was an old Victorian baths up here, and bathing trucks and stuff like that, and that pretty much went out of fashion. And there was probably about four of us swimming around about 2013-14 or so. And now, there's Leanne's group. There are people coming from East, West, inland. If you added it all up, there's probably somewhere in the region I reckon about 300. 

Leanne  18:43  
Yeah yeah. 

Adrian Baker  18:44  
People swimming in Nairn at various days, states of the tide, weather, all sorts,

Leanne  18:50  
all ages, my oldest lady, she's 70. She's amazing. And you know what's really nice about it, it's all ages. And it's all shapes and sizes, and see the confidence and the body comfidence it's given so many people, it's not just about the swimming, it becomes a community. And it's become family. And it's actually saved a lot of people especially through COVID. You know, a lot of people found - not just me, but there were like, if it wasn't for swimming, I don't know where I would have been. And I get it, I think we understand because we understand, how important it's been in my life anyway, you know, and it's so good for people to talk about it now. Because it's not this whole taboo, you know about your mental health. So it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing.

Jackie Baxter  19:27  
Yeah, that's wonderful. And it feels like it's a really great way of bringing together all sorts of people from all sorts of places and who would never have met through anything else. And they've come together through this, sort of, love of going in the water. 

Leanne  19:40  
Yeah, we've raised a lot of money for different charities over the last couple of years, just got a big few things together, which has been another thing because again, it's another sense of achievement for people to push themselves to things they never thought they could do. And as I said they're always going to keep growing in and there's no stopping it. But yeah, going back to thing you said is definitely good  to swim in numbers, it's the proper thing to do 100%? 

Jackie Baxter  20:03  
Yeah, definitely. Again, I think my body because of long COVID, you mentioned your sort of internal thermostat, I think I have a sort of a similar problem. But I tend to go cold very easily and very quickly. And have you got any sort of tips, I guess for? How do you know when you're in there too long, you know, how do you know when to come out? And how to warm up afterwards as well, I guess, because, you know, you get out and you think I feel amazing. I've got a great buzz, but oh, I'm shivering. That happened very fast.

Leanne  20:35  
They say especially kind of when it's colder, you're meant to be in a degree for every - a minute for every degree, you know what I mean, because people feel great when they're in, it's when you come out and it's - you learn that I think after the first few times, you realize, listen to your body. With my fibro I have no feeling of like cold hot, and for a long time I couldn't work out. Soon as my skin start to tingle now, that's the sign for me to get out. But I mean, I can swim a lot longer than I ever done before. But I mean, I, at one point, I literally nearly collapsed or hypothermia. Cos I thought I felt great. It was like middle of winter, came out. And then I fell on the beach. And I was like, Oh, but I wasn't listening to my body. 

And then it was these guys who I swim with, who you know, when I first came out the water, I thought I just throw in a toweling robe and that was like a no go. It's about getting that core really warm straightaway - hot drink. But it's just remembering what to do and being organized. Because some of us just think, ach just jump in the car and put the heater on! No, because you're too busy shaking like a leaf!

Adrian Baker  21:34  
Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's a degree, it's a couple of minutes each degree or something like that.

Leanne  21:41  
In the cold weather, I think it's more or less a degree a minute. Basically, if it's four or five, even five minutes and get out. That's the thing. But you know, you do build a tolerance to the cold. You know, but it's, it's about being safe.

Adrian Baker  21:54  
And I think you do adapt, so you can stay a bit longer, once you are a bit more used to it. But people will say oh, it's fine, just go in and have a quick shower afterwards. And that's the worst thing you can do! So the answer, as Leanne said, is to warm yourself up naturally. So if you're super cold, what happens is you your skin shuts down. So there's no blood circulating through the skin because it's minimizing the heat loss. And all the blood is gone to the middle of your body and into large organs - into liver and kidneys and all that core area in your body. And you suddenly jump into a shower and the blood says oh, that's fine, I'll go off to the skin again, there's not enough blood go into the brain. So you faint, collapse, feel awful and your circulation doesn't quite know what's going on. So it's asked me to do one thing and I'm doing something else. 

But the most important thing I say is to get your costume, get out your wetsuit as quickly as you can, while you're still functioning. We tend to find is about 10 minutes afterwards, you really start to shiver then and you want to be in really dry clothing, and a lot of it, within 10 minutes of getting out, preferably within five minutes, and get your friends to get you out if you're stumbling about and dizzy and things like that, because that can happen in really cold water. And then get into really dry stuff and lots of it and just 

Leanne  23:13  
And a think woolly hat

Adrian Baker  23:14  
yeah, thick wooly hat, thick boots. And let everything happen really slowly, let your body readjust really slowly - it will, the skin will get the blood circulation coming back to it once you're warmed up and getting some warmth into your core. Warm but not hot drink is good. And then do it really slowly. And in the winter that can take - I've seen myself a couple of hours, 

Leanne  23:37  
a couple hours, sometimes 

Adrian Baker  23:38  
a couple hours to warm up shivering and all sorts 

Leanne  23:41  
Shivering is the thing, is a lot of people shiver and get quite a fright. But it's actually just natural, isn't it? People start to think what's wrong with me, but it's just the body's way. It takes a long time to get used to - sometimes can't hold a cup of tea. And it's like Uh-oh, but it does. It can last I've seen some people go three or four hours before they've even stopped shivering. 

Adrian Baker  24:00  
so it's okay. It's just like the breathing. Just go slow. Go slowly, let everything happen really slowly.

Leanne  24:05  
It's all a learning curve. And I'm still learning every time I swim, or maybe in the winter you learn something. I should have done that last year, you know? Yeah, it's really good.

Jackie Baxter  24:14  
Yeah, totally. That's useful to know, actually, because I do the same thing when I start shivering. I think oh, this is bad. I need to warm myself up really quickly. Because you think when you're shivering that it's, you know, it's not a good thing. But that's, that's okay. 

Adrian Baker  24:26  
Definitely. Yeah, just put another hat on.

Leanne  24:29  
And always have a bath mat in your car to stand on.

Adrian Baker  24:33  
Yeah, I use an old mat. Just pull it out of the boots. Got something under your feet, rather than gravel or sand or something - just have an insulated mat or something between you and the ground to get changed on - that's luxurious really isn't it 

Leanne  24:46  
Oh it's amazing.

Adrian Baker  24:49  
oooh we're reminiscing now 

Leanne  24:50  
And a hot water bottle, 

Jackie Baxter  24:51  
oh, that's a good idea. So I mean, we're talking about people going out into water, sort of potentially in the wild, certainly cold water. Are there particular things to look out for, I mean things like waves, currents and jellyfish spring to mind! But I'm sure there are other things as well?

Adrian Baker  25:08  
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people are freshwater swimming in lochs locally, that's pretty safe. Depends on the loch, if it's a nice shallow brown peaty loch, and it will get warm quite quickly, and it will be quite nice. Deeper lochs simply won't warm up. Just there isn't the heat to do that. Sea swimming's different. Leanne's absolutely spot on yeah, you're much better doing that in company, with people you know, with people who you can rely on. And certainly you do have to get to know which way the current's going. What's the tide going to do?

Leanne  25:43  
You kind of learn to read the water, don't you, before you get in, you really analyze the water. You know it's safe. It's a thing you just learn to do naturally, it's like you observe the water before you get in. And, and it does change really quick, even the sea, it can change really quick, you know. But again, it comes with just learning and experience, you know, but there are people been frightened when they've gone in for a swim and realize that it's like really hard to get back, it's just because the tides change and things, but it's kind of, again, it's just that learning curve, you know, because we're all learning every time, every time you swim you, you know, you learn something.

Adrian Baker  26:16  
And in certain conditions, you can see that water moving from the beach. In the wrong conditions, you can get into trouble - locally, because there's a very strong east to west current, which takes you off the beach and off shores, rip current in the wrong conditions. So you don't really want to get into that. 

Three of us got into that a number of years ago, and we're all separated and having a bit of a struggle to get back to the beach. So that was quite entertaining. Obviously, we all got back eventually. But I wouldn't want to do that again. So it's just be canny, Be safe. Be careful.

Leanne  26:49  
You don't have to be deep. That's the thing. People think you have to be away deep sometimes to get into it, but you don't

Adrian Baker  26:54  
Chest deep is deep enough. Yeah. 

Leanne  26:56  
Yeah, 100%. 

Adrian Baker  26:58  
So yeah, company, somebody who knows the area. All of these sort of things are handy things. And if it's a rocky loch, and you're in your cofssie, just wear your training shoes, because people fall over and get cut feet, stuff like that. So might as well have a wet pair of training shoes and go in and those and look a bit weird. 

Leanne  27:15  
Yeah.

Adrian Baker  27:15  
Rather than stumbling around looking like you've had a dram before you went in.

Jackie Baxter  27:19  
Yeah, I've definitely noticed waves are a lot more powerful than they look. 

Adrian Baker  27:23  
Yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  27:24  
You know, even a fairly benign looking beach can be a bit more than it looks sometimes, I guess. Yeah, just take it easy. I guess. 

Leanne  27:32  
Some of us love the waves, but it terrifies others.

Adrian Baker  27:36  
So the flotation device as well, I suppose, that's worth mentioning, isn't it? There's a lot of people have got swimming floats. Firstly, for safety, it means you can be seen by other water users, such as jet skis and speed boats and stuff like that. They know you're there because they're not going to see a swimmer. They'll see the orange or yellow swimming floats. And also, if you get tired, you can actually hold on to it. And some of them are really cool. Yeah, they can get a snack in them 

Leanne  28:02  
yeah, like a crab eh Adrian?! My daughter's never forgiven him for this, you know, we were like swimming. And the topw floats open up, you can like put bits in, and Adrian dove down and come up with this big crab in his hand. And of course, my daughter was like, she was on the shore. And I thought he was going to put it back. No, he stuffed it in his tow float. And then later on, he decided to send a picture of it cooked. So my daughter calls him the crab killer. She's never forgiven him. 

Adrian Baker  28:30  
It's true

Leanne  28:30  
So it fits crabs in them. There you go, 

Adrian Baker  28:32  
Handy thing to have

Jackie Baxter  28:34  
Fantastic.

Leanne  28:35  
They really are essential.

Jackie Baxter  28:36  
Yeah, that's a good a good one as well. Yeah. What are your thoughts on wetsuits versus not wetsuits - is that personal preference, or different times of year or 

Leanne  28:46  
I swim all year just in a costume.

Adrian Baker  28:49  
And she's incredibly brave. And I'm a complete wuss, I'm a wetsuit person, I'm afraid

Leanne  28:55  
It's choice isn't it - I just find that because I'm in every day, the thought of having to get on and off a wetsuit. So it's just, I'm actually warmer in a swimsuit - I get out, you know, I mean, so for me when I did my challenge, it was against the rules to put a wetsuit on. So that's what kind of made me do the first full year ever since I started. So for me, that's just preference, because it just saves time. But I mean, because I was doing it every day. But you know, a lot of people swim in wetsuits and, hey, if that's what they want, and go for it. And you know, because they stay in the water, it keeps you warm, and that's what people want. Not turning blue!

Adrian Baker  29:25  
Yeah, it just means I can stay in longer.

Jackie Baxter  29:28  
And are there any sort of people, sort of cohorts of people maybe, that shouldn't go in the water - I'm thinking, you know, some people have lng COVID are, potentially have organ damage or, you know, really, really, really struggling with energy levels and things and, would it be just to sort of go in for a much shorter time or should certain people maybe not try it?

Adrian Baker  29:51  
I'm really not keen on saying nobody should do anything ever. I don't think that's a very good starting point. I think that - Try it, honestly, you've got nothing to lose. And even if you get up to your knees, and then walk back out, again, that's a start

Leanne  30:07  
It gives you energy back, doesn't it, at some point, even if it's just a paddle, that's the thing, and that you don't have to go swimming, as Adrian says, you know, start off small paddles. And you know, I mean, that's the cold water, you know, because like you say, why should somebody not get the chance to give it a go?

Adrian Baker  30:23  
I think that we've hit on a few things. There's obviously the physical aspect of it, the anti inflammatory aspect with it, dampening down inflammation and that's certainly recognized thing with the arthritis thing. So as an anti inflammatory element, that's really good for people who've got inflammatory conditions. And we know that COVID inflames pretty much every cell in the body - give you pericarditis, meningitis, arthritis, myalgia, and myositis. And everything, the whole lot just gets inflamed. So reducing that inflammation with cold water swimming is free. 

And the other two aspects, I think, which are massively important is mental health, it's a small incremental achievement, makes you feel better, I've actually gone and done something positive. And it's, it's not gonna do any harm. The other aspect is, which is hugely important, and we've all been told to avoid each other and isolate and don't go out and don't do this. And don't do that, or that. So it's the social aspect, we are social animals. And we like other people who find a little tribe or massive tribe, in Leanne's case, or make a tribe if you haven't got one. You know, it's that social aspect of doing stuff with friends. That's so important. And if there's a group, and they hear this and say, well actually we'll go in, you know, one week we go up to our knees, and next week, up to our hips, next week, up to our armpits and so on, and even if it's just five minutes, which is fine this time of year, for anybody, that's an achievement, you know, huge achievement for people that are just feeling dreadful. So I think that's a really positive message 

Leanne  32:07  
yeah it is, and it's for all ages, that's the thing, you know, mental health, not just for the old is it? you know, there's a lot of young kids and that sort of thing with the paddle boarding and all that kind of thing. There's so many kids on the water now, you know, they've had such a rough time, and that's been saving grace for them too, you know, because we think about mental health, we just think ughh, you know. We don't now, it's such a huge thing about all generations isn't it, so absolutely. It's amazing what it can do for your wellbeing. Really? Yeah. You know, and I'm totally living proof of that

Jackie Baxter  32:34  
Yeah, you literally are. Oh, that's amazing. So just before we finish, have you got any sort of, I guess, final words of wisdom for anyone thinking about getting into wild swimming?

Adrian Baker  32:45  
As they say in Finding Nemo 

Leanne  32:46  
Yeah, just keep swimming. 

Adrian Baker  32:48  
It's good!

Jackie Baxter  32:49  
Thank you both so much for chatting to me. It's been really interesting hearing both of your perspectives on this, as well as it being hugely inspiring to hear your positive experiences. So thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai