70 - Lorrie Rivers - Reclaiming life from chronic illness & helping others do the same

Episode 70 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with the fabulous Lorrie Rivers. Lorrie has herself recovered from Me/CFS as well as Long Covid & Fibromyalgia and is helping others to do the same.

Lorrie has been helping people manage their illnesses for years and has seen a lot of success stories, but feels she has made a break-through recently which she is really excited to share.

Useful links below:

What’s the Root Cause of My Illness? 

Lorrie Rivers - Living from Inspiration

Join Facebook group

Lorrie is also offering a few free workshops with sex and relationship therapists in February about Sex, Pleasure and Intimacy with Long Covid and ME/CFS and how to navigate it (for people who are single or in a couple).  At least one of the workshops will be live and participants can submit their questions beforehand or during the session.  

The first is February 14 at 1pm Eastern US (New York time) on her IG channel (lorrierivers_).  More details via the website link above.

For more information about Long Covid Breathing, their courses, workshops & other shorter sessions, please check out this link

(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am super excited to be joined today by the fabulous Lorrie Rivers. And I first came across Lorrie last year when she interviewed me for the long COVID And MECFS holistic healing Summit. I think I got that right! And I've been following her work ever since. So I'm really excited to hear all about everything that's going on in this kind of area that you're involved in, as well as how you can help others. So welcome to the podcast.

Lorrie Rivers  0:33  
Thank you so much, Jackie, I am over the moon to be here with you.

Jackie Baxter  0:38  
Amazing. Cool. So to start with, would you mind just saying a little bit more about yourself and what it is that you do?

Lorrie Rivers  0:47  
Sure. So I have been coaching people with MECFS. So that's Myalgic encephalomyelitis and chronic fatigue syndrome, for over 20 years now. And I got into it because I myself developed severe MECFS when I was in my early 20s. And it lasted for about eight to 10 years. So I'd say severely for eight years. And then two more years of you know, kind of crawling out of that hole. But towards the end of it, I actually had people seeking me out. This was a while ago, when I was sick, and the Internet was still pretty new. And there wasn't a whole lot of information out there. 

So as actually probably many of you have experienced, the doctors that I went to either just had no idea what to do with me. Or they sent me to psychiatrists, or dot dot, dot, you know, just doctor after doctor after doctor. So once I did start to kind of work things out. Yeah. And that's how I started coaching other people. And so over the years, I came up with really strategies and solutions to be able to manage MECFS. And what I found was that a lot of times, if people stuck with that, they would get better, but it usually took a long time. Right? 

So then I ended up getting long COVID in one of the early waves in I think it was May of 2020. And I freaked out, Jackie, I totally freaked out for like two or three days, because because I could tell that it was MECFS - I was having the same types of symptoms with just some new different flavors. And you know, all these things were going through my mind like  I can't do this, again, I can't live like this, again, I would rather not be alive, than have to go through that for you know, eight plus years again, I just, you know, all of those thoughts. 

And what happened is that the things that I know to do, kind of kicked in after day one of the freak out. And so instead of being caught up in the story, I was able to just witness the thoughts, I was able to just watch the thoughts instead of getting into them and believing them. And so what happened around day three or so is the thoughts started to shift a little bit. And other sorts of thoughts started to come in, like, hey, you know what, I know how to do this. I know how to get well. And not only that, but if I'm experiencing this, and this is a pandemic, then how many other people out there in the world, who have never run across this before, are having a really tough time right now and have developed the same thing. You know, and I actually got in touch with a couple of expert doctors in the area of MECFS. And I was like, Hey, there's this really weird thing happening right now to me. I'm wondering if it's happening to other people - and if you think that it's MECFS it's just another form of post viral syndrome. And they were all like, yes, absolutely. 

So that really lit a fire within me to you know, to first of all get well - so I you know, I immediately started doing what I know to do. And but then also to really get the information out there because I know how freakin scary it is when you first have this thing and nobody knows what it is and nobody understands what you're going through because you look Fine, right? I mean, it's so bizarre, but you're in a different body that doesn't work, that seems to have turned against you. And it's just so horrible. And I was like, you know, I have to do my best to get this information out there and to help people who are dealing with this, and to let them know that it doesn't have to be the end of the world. 

That there are things that you can do, and that you can not do to make this easier, you know, push crash stuff pacing stuff, because when I was first sick, so many years ago, when I would occasionally have a good day, because because my father had to feed me a lot of days, because I couldn't lift, you know, fork to my mouth. But every once in a while, I'd have a good day. And I'd be like, Alright, I'm gonna go out and run for two minutes. Horrible idea. Because, you know, then I'm in bed and miserable for the next two months, or something like that. So I really wanted to get that information out there. So that's how my main message was born, and the holistic healing Summit, you know, I was like, Okay, we, we got to get this information out there. And give people hope too

Jackie Baxter  6:17  
yeah, it's really interesting seeing it from a different side, actually. Because for me, when I got COVID, and then didn't get better, and ended up with what, at the time, we didn't really call long COVID until maybe a few months later. And I had no idea what this was. And it was terrifying. Because, you know, we were in the middle of a pandemic, and I wasn't getting better, there was no medical care anywhere, because, you know, they were all dealing with the people that were much, much more severely ill. So it was this kind of, like, completely bizarre kind of situation, whereas I guess you were coming at it from a completely different angle having you know, you had that Oh, my goodness, holy hell not again, kind of feeling - that was probably equally scary, maybe, but in a completely different way?

Lorrie Rivers  7:06  
Yeah, well, I, you know, I just think back to when I first developed MECFS, when I was in my 20s. And I think that's probably fairly comparable to what people experienced, you know, when they developed long COVID, because I didn't know what was going on. The doctors didn't know what was going on, I didn't get a diagnosis until like two years later. And even then, the information that was out there about MECFS, those types of illnesses had just been swept under the rug for so long, there was a huge, huge negative bias, you know, against them for decades. 

So I think that was probably the comparable experience. I felt really lucky, actually, to have developed long COVID. Because I did have that, you know, what you're talking about as far as that perspective of, okay, I know what this is, I know that I'm not going to die. It feels like I'm dying. But I know, right? 

Jackie Baxter  8:10  
Totally does at times, 

Lorrie Rivers  8:11  
yeah. But I know that I'm not going to die. And I know that this acute, long COVID phase when you know that inner trembling that you feel and when the smallest little thing will set off your adrenaline just over the top. You know, okay, so I know that if this does last for me for several years, I know that that will subside over the next couple of years. But you know, and I just had a knowing that I, again, that I know what to do, you know, I'm going to follow my own program. And so I know what to do. 

But then the you know, the other real gift of it was that once I did get well and I actually fully recovered from the long COVID within about eight months, but then what it spurred me to do is that - and I don't want to talk about myself the whole time, but this is so important to get out there I think because I had also had fibromyalgia, lifelong fibromyalgia, or what I call weather dependent fibromyalgia. So on some days, I was like Wonder Woman, and you know, I would have a lot of days like that. But then other days I couldn't get up off the sofa, I was in tears because my body was hurting so much. I couldn't go to school a lot of the time when I was growing up. And similar kind of story where, you know, doctor after doctor after doctor and psychiatrist after psychiatrists, after psychiatrists, you know, it's all in your head, you're depressed or this or that, all these different things. And I still even at that point where I got well from the long COVID, I was still dealing with the fibromyalgia. 

The reason And then I knew that it was weather dependent that I finally figured it out, is because I lived in Los Angeles for several years. And while I was living in LA, and they don't really have much weather to speak of, you know, I was like Wonder Woman days most of the time. And then I moved back to the southeast in the US. And it's a lot of weather here, a lot of very severe varied weather. And most of my days ended up turning into sofa days. So anyway, so I always like to perform little self experiments to see if something will take care of, you know, will be the answer to that weather dependent fibromyalgia. And one thing kind of led to another soon after I recovered from long COVID. And I finally worked out what was the root of all of these things. 

I know that that sounds like a big, broad, massive statement. But basically, I started to treat that root cause for myself, for that weather dependent fibromyalgia. And within about six months, it was completely gone. And again, we're talking about lifelong, debilitating fibromyalgia, which, as you know, as you know, and probably everybody else knows, is very linked to these other illnesses. And I was working with some one-on-one clients, and I was telling them about what was happening. And they were like, Please let me be your guinea pig. So I started working with them. And sure enough, some of them even who had had MECFS for decades, started to recover - all of them who stuck with it, you know, within 12 months of actually treating it, they have all fully recovered. And that includes people with long COVID as well. So I'm now doing this in my online course. And it's amazing. It's blowing my mind, and making me really super happy for everybody too

Jackie Baxter  12:17  
Yeah, and that's amazing. I mean, I feel like you've touched on so many things just then. And like this, you know, the belief that we will recover. Because we know that you can't think yourself better, it's not that simple. Because if it was, we'd have done it by now. But you know, at the same time, someone said - I'm going to paraphrase because I can't remember who it was. But it was something along the lines of "whether you believe you will or believe you won't, you'll be right". 

And like, you know, again, it's not that simple. But in some ways it sort of is, because as soon as you lose that belief that you're going to get better, you stop trying to do all the things that help. And I've certainly found when I've had the, you know, the weeks Ughhh this is never gonna get any better. You know, they're the weeks where I tend to not be feeling so good. So you know, it's, it's all very intricately linked, I think, in some ways, isn't it? And I think we have to hear that people get better otherwise, how are you going to believe that it's going to happen to you? So I think that really is important, isn't it?

Lorrie Rivers  13:19  
Yeah. Because living in a vacuum, and you're only dealing with what you're dealing with in your body and in your mind, you're kind of screwed, right? Because it is so difficult. So yeah, totally agree. Totally. 

Jackie Baxter  13:34  
Yeah. I mean, no one no one wants to live in my head. They really, really don't like Oh, my goodness, I promise you wants to live in there. But, but yeah, I mean, I think when this first happened to me, it was just, you know, everything was so awful. You know, there must have been stuff out there, but I couldn't find it. And it wasn't for kind of lack of trying either. And then I think I hadn't made the link between the MECFS and the long COVID either, possibly because I didn't want to you know, when you hear ME, you just think nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. So you know, it might have been kind of self preservation there as well, to a certain extent. 

But then, when I started hearing about things that you could do that would help, then you feel like you kind of taken charge a little bit, don't you? So I thought right breathing. That sounds a bit ridiculous. But okay, I'll give breathing a try. And lo and behold, breathing really helped, you know, and you find these other things and none of them - for me anyway - have been like, the golden ticket. Nothing has like, cured me in a oner, but all of them have helped. And surely some improvement is better than no improvement?

Lorrie Rivers  14:47  
Yeah, yeah. Have a wonderful coach that I used to work with years ago who would say Even 1% Even 1% improvement is going to make a difference. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, this is the holistic approach that I teach and that we focus on in the summit. And, you know, all of that is that treating the root cause is the backbone, the backbone of the approach. But we do these things like breathing, we do, you know, meditation, certain types of meditation, because the meditation for some people can actually make them more anxious. Right. So there are ways to get around that, same thing with the breathing, and mindset and emotional intelligence, and how to approach physical movements, you don't want to jump into that right away, because it's just going to take you backwards. So but there, there are ways to, you know, keep the lymph moving in the body and things like that, until you do get to the place where it is safe to start exercising again. 

And, you know, by the way, I'm not a doctor, I'm not medically trained. But I have been working with people, probably 1000s of people, I think, by now, for over 20 years, you know, and now, like I said, you know, I'm seeing people, it was really an answer to something that I'd been asking for for a long time, which was, you know, okay, great. I can help people to manage this. And some of them do recover, but I want a surefire way for them to be able to recover. That was that kind of discovery that I made?

Jackie Baxter  16:40  
Yeah, I mean, I think you mentioned that, you know, things have to be done in different ways for different people, because like you said, No two people are going to be exactly the same. Are they and, and breathing techniques that work really well, for me aren't necessarily going to work really well for somebody else. Because we are so different. And I'm pretty sure that most of us will have found the wrong ways to do some of these things. I know I certainly have, you know, I just sort of went at it and realized, oh, no, that lead doesn't work that makes things worse. But for me, maybe it was it was a process I had to go through. I had to try, because why wouldn't you? But yeah, let's talk about what we can do. Because, you know, that's that's kind of what we want to know, isn't it? 

Lorrie Rivers  17:24  
So you know, in traditional medicine, right now, in western medicine, the symptoms are treated. And the thing is that especially with these kinds of illnesses, that ends up being like a, you know, like game where you umm

Jackie Baxter  17:39  
whack a mole 

Lorrie Rivers  17:41  
yeah, whack a mole that game it, it's like that, especially with these illnesses, because another weird symptom just pops up over here, and you take a whack at that, and it either works or doesn't work. And then another one pops up, and you take a whack. I mean, it's infuriating. It's like, moles, just stop. So the thing that I finally realized was that I'd taken a stab at treating fungus and parasites before. So these are things like Candida and worms, and nematodes, and all these things that are living in our bodies that are causing us problems, right? They secrete toxins, and then they actually take our nutrients. 

I was actually doing home ozone therapy. And I was doing it at a very low dosage - if you want to use that word dosage - and I was still having really harsh healing responses. And I was like, I am basically well, you know, except for this weather dependent Fibromyalgia thing, which, and I think that's another thing when you've had an illness for a very long time, you learn how to deal with it. And you kind of don't realize how bad it is. Because anybody else who was living in my body with that would be freaking out. And I'm sure that a lot of you out there can relate to that as well. 

So anyway, with that ozone therapy, I was like, alright, so clearly, the oxygen that the ozone is creating in my body that's killing the bad guys off, is killing off a lot of bad guys. Which means that I have a problem that needs to be addressed. And the ozone therapy was not going to do it because it was too much - was too much too fast. So I started to do some research and I started researching these two doctors in particular, Dr. Simon Yu and Dr. Alex Klinghardt. Also this woman, Kelly Rivera, and they were talking about how the root of all chronic illnesses are these hidden infections, these parasites, these bad microbe infections. 

And I was like, okay, you know, I did tons of parasite cleanses, I did. I took medications for Candida before, all these other things. But as I started to read how they were approaching these things, I could see kind of where I've not taken it far enough. And also, where I had done it kind of in the wrong order, so that my body was responding so badly to the point that I couldn't continue. So anyway, I kind of developed a protocol for myself, from what I was learning from them. And that's what I started to follow. So I did my whole, like, pre-treatment phase of getting my eating plan into place, which I've actually modified even from what I'd been doing before, which was actually a pretty good eating plan. And I'll tell you more about that in just a second, too, because that's where I recommend people start, always always. 

And then I made sure that my detox pathways were completely open, because that had been a problem before that I hadn't really fully addressed. And then you start what I call gently aggressive treatment of the fungus and the parasites. And I am not a medicine person, I'm not a drugs person at all. But especially with the things like the worms and things like that. That's what it takes, it takes medication. And we go through all this in the course. But what I found was that I started passing worms within the first week of taking the medications. And then get this though, almost every single person that I've worked with, using this approach, has started passing worms, either just from the eating plan, or, again, within a week or two of starting the actual drug treatments. 

And a couple of really funny things about that. The first one is that sometimes they will have just gone to the doctor and had like a stool test or something for parasites, and it comes back negative. And then like a week later, they're like, BUT I just found, you know, they don't touch it with their hand, of course. But when they send me a picture, they're like, look at what I just found! And it's totally gross. But it's really exciting, too, because you can see actual physical evidence of what's happening in your body and why you've been feeling so horrible. And you know that you're going in the right direction. And so we have a party. I mean, we seriously we like celebrate, when we have our group coaching session, and students come in, and they're like, oh, my gosh, I just started passing worms. And we're like, Yeah!

Jackie Baxter  23:07  
Yay I've found worms in my poop! 

Lorrie Rivers  23:09  
Exactly, exactly. But yeah, just knowing that you're moving in the right direction. And, you know, if you go to a regular doctor, and say, I want a treat for parasites, and for worms, they're like, that's not a thing here. That's only a thing in India and third world countries and Africa and stuff like that. It's not a thing here. The way that I look at it is that our bodies are like houses. And these parasites are like termites, and you don't know that they're there a lot of times until you start to kind of dig a little bit deeper, and you can't fix the house up  without eliminating the termites. You can come in and put in more walls, you can reinforce the structure, but the termites are going to get it those too. 

And that's what's happening for people, you know, you find things that maybe help a little bit, but it's just putting up a wall and then the termites are are getting to that as well. And the other great thing about that metaphor is that - that's how people develop the long COVID or the MECFS, or whatever chronic illness they end up developing. The termites were already there in the house, and the structure was already compromised, right? And then you have a strong storm that comes along like COVID and it takes it down. So we have to take care of those termites before anything else can get built up. Otherwise, it's just gonna keep getting worse basically.

Jackie Baxter  25:00  
That's amazing. I mean, you hear people say that, you know, Oh, it's all about the gut. And you know, it's all about the food you eat. But actually, that seems to be more true than maybe a lot of people think? 

Lorrie Rivers  25:14  
Yeah, it's even, it's so incredible, because it's also not just in the gut, right? So these parasites can live in the nervous system, they can live in the liver and different organs. And on top of that, of course, like you were saying, the gut, and our microbiome, our intestines are a vital part of our immune system. Right, so many people are dealing with mast cell activation syndrome. So the way that all this starts, and the reason that so many people are developing chronic illnesses like this, developing long COVID, MECFS, fibromyalgia, MS, even cancer is because of one antibiotics. 

So how many times when you were growing up, did you take antibiotics - at least for me, and for so many other people that I talked to they were given antibiotics like they were candy, you know, and of course, what we know the antibiotics do is they go in and kill everything, even the good stuff, right, but they don't kill some of these parasites, they do kill some of them, but not all of them, especially the worms and things like that. But what they do is they leave a wide open space for those bad microbes to thrive, to reproduce, which then in turn, actually makes the space more hospitable for the bad microbes, and makes it very difficult for the good guys, you know, the good microbes to come back in and do their job. 

And so our immune system is severely compromised in so many different ways. So we're starting out with a compromised immune system, not only from the antibiotics, but also if you take a look at your family history, if your mother had any health issues, or any emotional issues even, are often a symptom of these same sorts of issues, then you most likely inherited a compromised microbiome, because of you know, you're coming through the birth canal, and, you know, inheriting that from her. And so there are all sorts of factors that contribute to this. 

And when you take a look at history, of course, there were some of these chronic illnesses many, many decades ago, before antibiotic use was kind of rampant. But there are so many more now. And there are lots of different things that contribute to that, you know, you talked about diet. That's one of them, for sure. But the good news is that we know what's causing it now. You know, that was such a revelation to me, I was so excited and relieved to actually finally have an answer. And at the same time, it was like, Oh, my God, like, I know this, how did I not really go for it before? And I could have, you know, but coulda woulda shoulda!

Jackie Baxter  28:37  
Yeah, if you understand kind of what's going on, then, you know, as much as you might be like, Oh, my goodness, why didn't I work that out? Like, you know, two years ago or whatever, but at least, you know, kind of what's going on? So you can try and work out what to do at that point, can't you?

Lorrie Rivers  28:55  
Yes, exactly. And we take people all the way through that process. Because like you were talking about earlier, everybody's a little bit different. The way that it needs to be approached. I have people email me and they're like, Okay, so what medications do you use? And how do I do it? And I'm like, I wish that I could just give you a formula. But that's not how it works. Like you need to be working with someone who knows how to do this for several different reasons in order to not get worse, first of all, and also to keep going because it's not always an easy process, you know, and to navigate. And

Jackie Baxter  29:39  
it'd be so much easier, wouldn't it? Yeah,

Lorrie Rivers  29:41  
yeah. If we could just put it out there. And this is exactly what you do. That would be very cool. I wish that it were that easy, but you know, it's still possible. It's still totally possible. So, and it's so simple. At the surface of it right? It's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. And that, you know, when you start to take a look at the symptoms. So one of the things, this is just an example. But one of the things that I always thought was funny when I was sick, was I would have days every once in a while, where I felt totally drunk. I felt drunk out of the blue for no reason I hadn't eaten anything different. I hadn't had any alcohol, you know, all these different things. And I was like, what is happening? I mean, sure, you know, it feels good. But what is happening? 

And then it dawned on me the reason why once I learned about this, and it's because these parasites, these bad microbes, they produce all sorts of different toxins. And some of them affect your brain, some of them affect your emotions, some of them affect your muscles, you know, some of them affect your nervous system, and all those different things. And one of the ones that, especially like fungus and yeast produce is ethanol. That's alcohol! And I've talked to so many other people who have had that experience as well, they were like, Yeah, I had no idea what was happening. But it was literally, you know, the parasites are creating these toxins, and ethanol is one of them. And, you know, there are tons of other ones. 

But that's another reason that, you know, there are certain foods that will trigger symptoms for people. That's the reason why. So guess what feeds all of these bad microbes - sugar! And just about everything turns into sugar, right, so vegetables that we eat, turn into sugar, some more than others, of course, protein, actually, if you take it past a certain point, turns into sugar. So in other words, for an average female, if you eat more than four ounces of protein in one sitting, the rest of it is going to turn into sugar. And that feeds the microbes. And for men, it's like five to six ounces. So more than six ounces, that turns into sugar and feeds the microbes. Fat is the only thing that doesn't feed them. 

So that's part of the reason that so many people are having, you know, some good results with ketogenic diets, because they're not consuming as many carbs. So they're not feeding the microbes as much. And that's also why you know how before I was talking about how some students within the first week or two of just doing the eating plan, they start passing worms. And that's why as well. So that's where we start is with the eating plan. And, and that's what I can share with you all. And I have some great videos on YouTube about, about that eating plan. And it's not a typical keto diet, in that, you know, there are tons of foods out there that are labeled as keto foods, but they're actually really horrible for you. 

So it's, it's just very simple. It's meat, lots of healthy fats, and low carb veg. And then again, depending from person to person, because some people are sensitive to oxalates, or to lectins, or to, you know, all the different plant antioxidants. So we work that out together. As far as what's going to be best for them. Some people have to do the carnivore diet until their body can actually tolerate vegetables. But that's the best place to start. So we're talking no alcohol, no chocolate, no sugar. I know, right? If y'all could have seen the look on Jackie's face, it was very...in pain

Jackie Baxter  34:06  
it was the no chocolate rather than anything else!

Lorrie Rivers  34:08  
I know!! That does it for a lot of people. And you know, the thing that I tell my students to keep reminding themselves is that this is not going to be forever. Honestly, it might be for a year or two. But that year or two of eating in a different way which you get used to. And the you know, six to 12 months of doing the treatments gives you back your whole life and means that you're not having to to live this, you know, it's not the life that you want to be living. And I understand that, I know how difficult that is.

Jackie Baxter  34:48  
Yeah, it's kind of the long game, isn't it? I guess. I mean, I've certainly noticed that with you know, some of the things that I have tried you know, the first time I tried to lay down and do a yoga nidra I was just like, this is boring. But then, you know, I kept trying, and I kept trying, I kept trying, and now I do it all the time. And I, you know, it really, really helps. And, you know, it sounds like this is kind of similar-ish. And that, you know, you just kind of have to put in the time in the faith that it will be worth it in the end.

Lorrie Rivers  35:18  
Yeah, and, you know, I think it's probably more hopeful because I do have clients and students who can come on and say, Hey, you know, this is how far it's taken me even just so far. And I'm only three or four months into it. And, you know, some people, it takes them a while to actually get on to the eating plan fully, and to be able to start treatments. So for instance, for one woman, she's wonderful, love her, she finished with the first round of the Relief and Transformation Course and there, which is three months. And now she's in the graduate program. So she gets continued support. And she hasn't started treating yet, because she did have to take it so incredibly slowly. Because she, you know, she's been fairly severely ill for most of her life. 

But to see her demeanor in the beginning of the course, versus where it is now - she's laughing, she's smiling. And it's incredible. And other people in the, you know, in the class, have noticed it and commented on it, as well. And it's just beautiful. And one of her wins, because we always talk about our wins, no matter how small they are. Right. And one of her wins recently was that she's been able to wear her favorite sweat pants, because she was not able to wear them before because her skin was so sensitive, that they felt bad to her. And so she's been able to wear that. 

And then another one of the students, his mother is actually taking the course for him, he has long COVID. And he's not able to do it for himself, because he can't do video and he, you know, he can't really communicate even - they have, well, they've started to be able to talk to each other now, but they had hand signals before. That would mean no, you know, can't talk right now. Or yes, you know, I can talk for a couple of seconds or whatever. So he was able to visit with one of his friends in person for five minutes, several weeks ago, which was a huge deal. 

And then there was one day when his mother and father were out of the house. And of course, you know, the mother relays all of this to me, and she's doing the course now too. Because she noticed as she was going through it for him. She said, Hey, yep, this is something that I need to do too - she had had insomnia for like 37 years, within two weeks of doing just the eating plan, her sleep has gotten so much better. And she's tried everything in the book. 

But anyway, so So the mother and father were out of the house one day, and he wanted something to eat, which is important for him because it's difficult to eat for him. And he actually felt good enough to get up and walk to the refrigerator and get some food and walk back. And he didn't crash. And that was the first time in two plus years that he's been able to even walk to the refrigerator. And again he hasn't been able to start fully treating yet either. But he's getting there, you know, the things that we do in the pre treatment phase, even start to take people there. 

It's incredible to watch people. And I think it does make it easier for people who are coming in to be able to see, okay, you know, these people are making progress. Because like you were talking about when you first start something, it just kind of feels like you're in a black hole. You know, you hope that it's gonna take you where you hope it's gonna take you - a little redundant, but you know what I mean. But if you can see somebody else who's been through that same thing and has come out the other side, or at least has experienced significant, you know, big steps already, that gives you that little boost that I think we all need to keep going.

Jackie Baxter  39:34  
Yeah, it's that kind of kick in the right direction, isn't it? You know, you're not just trying something...sort of, with no knowledge at all. 

Lorrie Rivers  39:43  
Yeah, 

Jackie Baxter  39:43  
you can look at someone else and say, right, well, it helped them because they can go to the fridge now. So it's probably worth me giving it a go kind of thing.

Lorrie Rivers  39:55  
Yeah. And you know, that's the other thing that's interesting about the courses that we have. So I have different phases of recovery, that I have kind of loosely defined for people - so that we can speak the same language. So, you know, phase one is bed bound, and completely house bound, and mostly bed bound. And then phase two is, you know, a little bit up the scale from that, phase three a little up to scale from that. Phase four is like, Okay, well, I can, you know, I can walk up the stairs once without it doing me in, or, you know, I can walk for 20 minutes, and I'm okay, but but they still experienced post exertional malaise if they overdo it, right. 

And then Phase Five is completely recovered. But we have people in the course all the way from phase one all the way up to phase four. So because each person depending on where they are, they need to approach things differently. You know, somebody who's in phase one is not going to approach starting treatment in the same way that somebody in Phase four is going to approach starting treatment. Phase one needs to be much more cautious and take it much more slowly than on phase four,

Jackie Baxter  41:10  
so by treatments, you know, you said the eating plan is kind of the first thing you go for, or, you know, start stepping towards if you can't go for it completely. And then moving on to treatments. Is that where we're talking more kind of drug based Stuff? For want of a better word?

Lorrie Rivers  41:31  
Yeah, drug based stuff like that. Yeah, so the, you know, the pretreatment involves eating, opening up those detox pathways, getting familiar with different types of binders, to help out with Herxheimer responses, which are healing responses, which - it's basically die off, right. So when the parasites die, they create even more toxins, they release a whole bunch of toxins, and usually heavy metals as well. So we deal with heavy metals later on in the course. Yeah, so you have a pretreatment checklist. And then once that's all taken care of, then you start the actual treatments. 

And yeah, we get into how to do that, how to work with your doctor to choose the right medications for you, because every person is going to be approaching it slightly differently, all the different aspects of it. And then most people start to be able to tell a fairly significant difference after about four full treatment phases, or you know, full rounds of treatment. But you keep doing the rounds of treatment until you are symptom free, until you are done. 

And we also get into things like Lyme. And if there are any other lingering viruses, for some people who have not treated for long COVID specifically yet, some people do need to start out there before they start treating the parasites and the microbes. But what we find a lot of times is that after those parasites, after those hidden infections have been treated, that a lot of those other things take care of themselves. Because the body's immune system is back online. 

One of the reasons that they're - the main reason that the body is experiencing so much inflammation with these chronic illnesses, is because of these hidden infections, the immune system is constantly freaking out, because there are foreign bodies in there, because there are these parasites in there that they know or you know, that the immune system knows, is bad. And so it's doing its best to kill them, kill them, kill them kill them, which is not effective because of a number of different reasons, mainly because it's overloaded. Right, but so the immune system is constantly active. And again, that's where we get into the MCAS and things like that.

Jackie Baxter  44:15  
Yeah, so that's why you've got things like your immune system firing off all the time, your nervous system firing off all the time, and, you know, often you can't really work out what it was that triggered it. And you know, you just have this kind of limit on what you can do. And it's obviously different for everybody. But it kind of makes sense, right? 

Lorrie Rivers  44:37  
Yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  44:38  
Oh, that's cool. That's really helpful.

Lorrie Rivers  44:42  
Yeah, and I think it's one of those things where the more you start to think about it, the more it makes sense, you know, the more you start to go, Oh, okay. And especially when you learn more about how these bad microbes operate and what their life cycles are and what they do in the body. And, and it's like, oh, okay, I understand my whole life now basically, you know, it's it's pretty amazing.

Jackie Baxter  45:15  
Yeah. What I'm really curious about I mean, I think there's been a lot of kind of chat around Why do some people get long COVID? And why do some people not? And why do some people end up with MECFS? And some people don't. And, you know, your parasite microbe thing kind of explains that. But - so do some people have these parasites and microbes? And some people not? Or is it some people have more of them than others? Or are there other factors as well do you think?

Lorrie Rivers  45:48  
Yeah, definitely, you know, we all, even a normal healthy body has some of those, quote, bad microbes, but they're kept in check by the good microbes. And actually, they all serve their purpose. The interesting thing about Candida is that when it's in the body in a healthy way, if all the other good microbes haven't been, you know, killed off, then it's completely benign. But once the good microbes get killed off it kind of - I don't know if you ever heard of the movie Gremlins, or ever watched it, it was a movie back in the 80s, or 90s, or something, and it had these little furry creatures, and they were really cute. But if you fed them after midnight, then they turned into flesh eating little monsters. And it's kind of the same thing with Candida, you know, if you wipe out, you know, the good stuff, the it morphs into something that that can be very toxic. 

So anyway, basically, yes, people who develop these chronic illnesses, they always have dysbiosis, their body is always in dysbiosis, meaning that the bad microbes have I mean, it's basically like an infestation of bad microbes. And that has to be shifted and taken care of, in order for the person to fully recover. So yeah, I mean, anybody who's dealing with a chronic illness, unless it's structural, but it can actually affect structural things as well. But anybody who's dealing with a chronic illness, it's going to have the root cause of this same thing that we're talking about here.

Jackie Baxter  47:38  
So it's kind of like, once the balance of the good and the bad shifts too much in favor of the bad. That's when you're going to start getting problems?

Lorrie Rivers  47:49  
Yeah. And you know, you told me, but for you personally, before you got long COVID, did you have any kind of weird health stuff? As you look back?

Jackie Baxter  48:03  
I mean, looking back, in the few months before I got ill, I had a lot of colds, I was dealing with a lot of work stress, and my diet wasn't awful. But it wasn't that great, either.

Lorrie Rivers  48:18  
Right? And then even back into childhood, or in high school, or stuff like that, did you have -Did you have frequent ear aches, or, you know, when you're growing up, you know - what I find is that, typically, people have been dealing with some sort of Health Thing for a while. But again, it's something that we get used to, and so that dysbiosis was already there. But then whether it's, you know, like stress you're talking about from work or eating patterns, or whatever, and it just gradually starts to move more and more towards the dysbiosis, towards the, you know, the bad microbes being more and more prevalent. And then it hits a certain point where it's just overload. 

And then like, we were talking about, you know, with the house with termites, then a storm like COVID comes along, or some other virus or a tick bite, or whatever it is, and it just takes the whole thing down. 

Jackie Baxter  49:30  
That's fascinating, isn't it? 

Lorrie Rivers  49:32  
Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I - one of the ways that I look at it is that it's kind of a blessing in disguise, because now you know that there's a real issue there. And you can take care of it, which means that the rest of your life is going to be much, much, much better. You know, as other people are developing other chronic illnesses or, you know, dementia or whatever it is, the things that we think of as coming along with old age, they're not necessary. That's also, you know, arthritis, things like that. That's also indicative of these hidden infections. So when you're able to take care of that early on, or wherever you are in your life, and be able to maintain that, that BIOSIS, you know, that balance in your body, your life is so much happier and healthier. And and you have that knowing, you know, you have that knowing of Yes, I know how to take care of my health and my body.

Jackie Baxter  50:39  
I'm sure I heard someone say, you know, I think they said something along the lines of looking back on it, I'm glad it happened, because I was able to, you know, be healthier as a result. And I think at the time, I was having a terrible week, and I hadn't really found that many things that had helped me yet. And I was kind of like, when they said that to me, I kind of wanted to punch them. Because I was like, How can this possibly be a good thing? 

So I think maybe that's something that's a bit easier to say, with the benefit of looking back on it. But that also being said, I have improved. I'm not there yet, but I am getting better. And I am able to look back on it and say, Well, I would have described myself as a completely healthy, fit, active, you know, I was completely healthy before I got COVID. And looking back on it. I wasn't - I was very fit. I was reasonably healthy. But I wasn't completely healthy. There were so many things in my life that weren't quite right. So I am now able to look back on it and think, right, well, I'm not sure I could say I'm glad that happened. But it has at least given me an opportunity to kind of sort some things out that maybe needed to be sorted. 

Lorrie Rivers  51:57  
Yeah, I love it. Yeah. And I'm totally with you. If somebody had said anything to me about, you know, finding the silver lining, or it's gonna all work out okay, or whatever in those first couple of years, I would have wanted to punch them in the face for sure. Yeah. So I totally get that. And I think that if y'all out there are feeling like that right now. You know, that totally makes sense. And that's okay. However you're feeling is okay. It's okay to feel that way. I really want for people to know that.

Jackie Baxter  52:36  
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I feel guilty sometimes for everything, for whatever I'm feeling. There's always, you know, it's always like, Oh, I shouldn't be feeling that. Well, it's like, well, actually, no, I don't I'm not sure there's a wrong thing to be feeling well, maybe there is. But it's everyone being different, isn't it?

Lorrie Rivers  52:55  
Yeah. And also that we, and we go through this in the course as well, we're designed to actually feel our feelings. When we allow ourselves to feel our feelings, then they move and they shift. You think about a little kid, when you tell them that they can't have an ice cream before dinner, right? They have a tantrum, they get so upset for about three minutes. And then a butterfly goes by and they go start giggling and chasing the butterfly, you know, they don't push their feelings down. And that's how we're built but it's been taught out of us. So to be able to allow ourselves to feel those feelings so that they can move, then that's much more healthy. And all of those feelings are valid, all of them. Absolutely, 

Jackie Baxter  53:44  
Yeah, that's a lovely way of putting actually yeah,

Lorrie Rivers  53:47  
I want for people to know that there is hope. And that you can do this - give yourself a lot of grace. And the small steps are what end up making them into big leaps. Don't try to do everything all at once. Just keep taking those small steps, keep having hope as much as possible. If you have a couple of days here or there where you feel like crapity crap. And you don't have hope, that's okay too, you know, give give yourself some grace around that too. 

And you know, just know that there are people like Jackie out there who are you know, interviewing people who have gone through these things before and and she has her own wonderful message and you know, I would of course love to be a part of your journey, but even if we don't work together, just know that you have a big fan right here with me and I'm sure with Jackie, and that there are you know, people who get what you're going through. And who understand you and who are supporting you. So regardless, lots of love and support. Yeah

Jackie Baxter  55:08  
Thank you. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, and it's been so fun as well. So thank you so much for all your useful tips and for giving us hope, and I'll make sure I drop a link to your website in the show notes if anybody wants to follow that up. So thank you so much.

Lorrie Rivers  55:30  
Thank you, Jackie.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai