77 - Suzy Bolt - Fears around Reinfection

Episode 77 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with the wonderful Suzy Bolt about the fears around reinfection, or indeed infection of any kind. This is something that is a huge concern for me, and I know for many others.

Suzy gives loads of really good advice - and her own experiences - around this, so I hope you're able to take as much away from it as I did.

Links:
360MindBodySoul

The Fern Programme

YouTube Channel

Workshop on reinfection

For more information about Long Covid Breathing, their courses, workshops & other shorter sessions, please check out this link

(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am absolutely delighted to welcome back with fabulous Suzy Bolt, who many of you will know from the amazing work that she has been doing. And I totally recommend a listen to episode seven where Suzy was one of my very early guests chatting about her experiences. But today we are going to be talking about something that is a huge worry for me - and I think probably for a lot of people, which is the issue of reinfection or indeed, infection of any kind, on top of long COVID. So, a very warm welcome back. 

Suzy Bolt  0:36  
Oh, Jackie, it's lovely to be here. And thank you for having me. 

Jackie Baxter  0:39  
So lovely to see you again. So I'm sure most people listening probably will have come across you before. But would you give just a very quick kind of intro to who you are and what it is that you do? 

Suzy Bolt  0:52  
Sure. For many, many years, I've been a yoga teacher and an NLP coach and basically do kind of transformational work. And I got COVID in 2020. And went on to develop long COVID. And that journey took me down a new avenue in my career, because I began to realize once I'd come back out of a&e, that there was nothing that standard medicine was going to be able to help me with. And so the stuff that I knew around my nervous system and the need to come out of that fight flight, fear freeze state, and to kind of work to soothe myself became my goal. 

I knew I couldn't do it on my own, because we were all shut inside our houses. And it was lonely, and I needed connection. So I set up a Facebook group focused on recovery, which was quite unique at the time, because all of the other groups were very much focused on how ill we all were, and who was dying and who wasn't dying, which wasn't helping my nervous system in any way, shape, or form. And then I went on to set up a live program of classes that we now call the rest repair recover program. And we've had 1000s of people come through it already from all over the world, which is what astounds me, from Cameroon, to Australia, to Finland to, you know, Yorkshire, we've got them all. I love it. It's a beautiful, beautiful community, of people just coming home to themselves and working in ways that we can by ourselves. But with support and connection. 

Jackie Baxter  2:31  
Yeah, it's lovely. I mean, I've noticed personally with what I've been doing, as well as, you know, speaking to people like yourself that, you know, it is a very isolating experience being ill with something like long COVID, especially at the start of a pandemic, when everybody is completely isolated on top of that, yeah, so. So this idea of connecting with all sorts of people, be it people who are in a similar position to yourselves being ill, or being people who are kind of, you know, experts, or, you know, people who are trying to help, it's been really quite heartwarming to kind of connect with all these different people that you probably wouldn't have ever come across otherwise. 

Suzy Bolt  3:12  
Of course, not not at all. And actually, you know, I think, because we are social creatures, as human beings, we actually need it, we need it, to regulate ourselves, we need connection, we need empathy, we need understanding, we need it, you know, it's a given, it's part of our need set for recovery. And if we don't feel that, if we don't feel understood, if we don't feel connected, if we feel isolated, we are much more likely to slide into depression, and despair. And that internal state does not promote recovery from anything. So, you know, actually, it's, for me, it was one of the key pieces that I knew I needed to put into place to be able to feel connected and understood in order to help me recover. 

So, yeah, it was a kind of, it was a no brainer, as they say, I need to do this. So I'm going to lead it despite being unwell. But because I know it's fundamental to me getting through what I need to get through. 

Jackie Baxter  4:11  
Yeah, and I think I remember, probably when we spoke before, saying something along the lines of, I can't imagine how you could possibly have set this thing up while being so unwell. And it's still something that I think, oh my goodness, like, that's amazing.

Suzy Bolt  4:24  
But one of the things actually I realized one of the things that's come up for me on my own journey in the last three years was that actually, I have just been diagnosed with ADHD so I may well have been lying in bed physically the most unwell I've ever been. But my brain was still in its super hyper imaginative, creative state, which is how my brain has always been and I've only just realized that not everyone's brain is like mine. So whilst my ADHD doesn't show up in a physical way, it shows up in in a way that my brain needs to be very active. Hence setting up a Facebook group, website, a company, a business, you know, and and connecting with people all over the world. You know, I think it sort of allowed me to bring out the best in myself whilst going through the worst of times. 

Jackie Baxter  5:14  
yeah, definitely. So I guess, this sort of sense of connection that we've just been talking about, you know, which is so important, and I don't think anyone will deny that as such, but, you know, we are isolated by our condition, in that we maybe don't have enough energy to go and spend time with people or connect with people in whatever way, but also this fear of being reinfected, you know, the lack of protections, just people not understanding that maybe a reinfection could be worse for somebody with long COVID than maybe for somebody who didn't, or even even, you know, maybe not somebody who doesn't have long COVID. You know, we just don't know, it seems like a bit of a lottery. 

And it's certainly something that I'm terrified of. And, you know, this seems like completely logical to me, you know, it did me so much damage the first time around. So why on earth would I want to put myself in that position for a second time or a third time? Potentially, you see it in social media all the time. So how do we get around this, I guess? And that's a very, very open question....

Suzy Bolt  6:24  
It is definitely. And, you know, we can just tell the listener that the irony of the timing of this was beautiful, because Jackie got in touch with me a few weeks ago, and said, you know, should we do this, this conversation around managing the fear of reinfection? I said, yeah, yeah, definitely. Let's book it in. And then about two days later, I sent her an email and went, Oh, just tested positive, really not feeling very well, can we postpone? She was like, Oh, okay. 

So here we are, I'm now on the other side of my third COVID infection. And, you know, there's a bunch of stuff that I know and that I believe, and then there's a bunch of stuff that I've witnessed, because obviously, I have access and contact with hundreds and hundreds of people who've had long COVID and have then gone on to have reinfection. So I kind of, I have a kind of temperature test on what it's really like for the majority of people. And you know, what I will say straight from the off is, for I would say, 99% of people that I've had contact with, or I've read comments from, the variants that are around now are much gentler. They're nowhere near as full on as the earlier set. 

And people's bodies are dealing with it. They recognize this virus and go Uh, Yeah. Okay. And get through it much quicker, much simpler. And I would say, I have heard time and time and time again, people saying I was really surprised. I was really surprised and pleased that it felt like that, that it wasn't what it was back originally when I first caught it. And that liberated them. It's liberated them from the prisons of their isolation. Because yes, they may well get sick. You know, I for sure I was in bed for a couple of weeks and felt like I had septic tonsillitis. But I used to get tonsillitis all the time as a kid. So you know, it was just like, oh, yeah, okay, I just, I recognize this, this is okay. I'll get through it. And it will be fine. 

And I think you have to start reaching out and listening to those stories of reinfection. Because they're really valuable resources, they're a great place to kind of tap into. And in my Facebook group, I quite regularly see posts of someone saying, who's had reinfections? And what's it like? Because I'm beginning to realize, I'm not leaving my house. And I don't know how long I can go on living my life like this. And so it's great, you know, that bravery to step into the space of, I'm going to find out what it would be like to go and put myself out there, kind of you know, for some people, it will feel like - and I'm sure for you - I'm putting myself in the firing line. Because anything could happen here. Yeah. 

And the majority of people that come back, say, just get it done, literally go out there, stand up, you know, at some point, you'll come into contact with the virus and it won't be the same as the thing that's done this to you now. Or you know, that had sort of created the reaction in your body when you first met that virus. So that would be my first port of call, just to get people to start asking the community because the community is huge. The community is huge. And people are really happy to talk about it, and share their stories and share their experiences and so many people are in the position of thinking - I can't get it again because look what it did to me this time. 

I think we have to understand, the first time your body meets this virus for the majority of people, is going to be the worst time. And then everything subsequent to that just becomes milder. So what do you think of that? When I say those words? Is that something that you've actively engaged in? Or do not believe people like, I'm curious what happens for you around other people's stories with it.

Jackie Baxter  10:23  
it sounds more reassuring than I was thinking personally. And I'm wondering, it wasn't until kind of quite a long way through my journey, which is still sort of ongoing, but massively improving, that I realized how important recovery stories were, you know, this idea of belief that we would recover was actually fundamental to our recovery. And, you know, hearing those stories from people partly for, you know, getting ideas and partly for just, you know, reaffirming that kind of belief that we will get there, even though it really doesn't feel like it some of the time. 

And I'm wondering if maybe this is kind of, maybe along those lines, where, you know, it's something that we are utterly, utterly terrified of, and why wouldn't we be, you know, look what happened the first time. And what we tend to hear is the horror stories of the people who've got much worse, or the people who have almost recovered, and then got it again, and then it's sent them back to square one. And it tends to be the doom and gloom that we hear, rather than the positive stories. So maybe that is some of what's going on here?

Suzy Bolt  11:25  
I think, you know, the thing that you just mentioned around mindset, and hope and positive belief is phenomenally important to your understanding about what's going to happen to you when you meet the virus again, it's not an if - it will be a when - you know, it's, it's everywhere, so it's a very clever thing, this virus. And actually, you know, if you look at the kind of the basic neuroscience of the best way that you can prepare your brain to meet and deal with this virus, because don't forget, let's not, you know, forget the brain tells the immune system how to respond, it gives the instruction. 

We can notice the fears that we had, though, that we have, we can notice what they are, we can articulate them, we can write them down, we can look at them, you know, we can become a little objective, what are my fears? Why are they there? And then you go through an exercise of saying, Well, what would be the most useful thing for me to think about my body's ability to deal with this? So one of the things that I do in my Fern program, which is my kind of smaller recovery program, is I get people to write - what would be the most useful belief for you to have about your immune system? 

Because when, you know, pre COVID, if you'd asked me what I thought about my immune system, the first thing I'd say was, it's rubbish. It's rubbish. I'm always sick, you know, whenever the kids get something, I get it. I've always been sick as a kid, in my, you know, my 20s, I got scarlet fever, you know, I was just always getting stuff. And that was just who I was. It was what I now know, a response to having ADHD, and it was basically burnout. So my body would just get sick and say, you've done too much. You've thought too much, you've had too much going on in your head, we're just going to shut you down. And illness does that beautifully. 

And so I realized, well, if I have a really strong belief around the fact that my immune system is rubbish, what am I going to be thinking the next time I catch this virus? Oh, well, that I can't cope with it right? That it'll be too much. That it'll make me really ill again. And I thought, well, that's not serving me. And if I'm priming my brain who is the main kind of supercomputer for my body and my immune system to already be on the backfoot, and to not do its job - you're not going to do your job is what I'm giving the instruction to my brain? Well, how is it going to do its job well, if it's already being told it's not going to do its job well. So I decided to change my internal mantra to - my immune system is my superpower. 

And I, you know, when I first started to say it to myself, I would laugh because I just thought, well, it's not really. But then I started to really like saying it to myself, wouldn't be nice if it was, and then I got into the habit of putting my hand on my heart when I said it and sort of saying, you know, it's okay, because your immune system is your superpower, and just kind of breathing that in and feeling that little tingle of ooh, that could be possible. And that's become the truth. So now the only thing that I've got sick with over the past three years since March 2020 is COVID twice. Now my kids have brought coughs, they brought strep A into the house. I haven't caught any of it. For some reason, COVID keeps sticking through the net, but I'm fine with that because I'm handling it beautifully. But I really do a lot of work on - it's okay, because my immune system is my superpower. 

And I've also made the changes that I needed to make. So I've created more space in my life, and I've taken some of the major stress pieces out. So I've done all of that work. So actually I've now got evidence that my immune system has the opportunity to be my superpower. And, you know, I work with people to find out what the limiting beliefs are that they have around their immune system, and what would be more helpful to think instead. And it's a really nice exercise to play with. So that would be one thing that I would really recommend you kind of taking away and playing around with - what is that fear? Because that fear, if that's the loudest thing inside your head, that fear will be the message that gets sent around the body. 

Now, we can't control whether or not we get it, but we can control how we respond to it when we do. So this time around, you know, I tested positive, and definitely didn't feel very well. And actually, I've, you know, one of the big stress pieces I've just managed to kind of navigate my way through over the past few years is the separation from my husband. And we're now - we did it very gently and gracefully. And it was exhausting. But you know, we have a great friendship now, I would say. And I was just - just as I tested positive, the kids were going up to his house for the first full week of us being in separate homes. 

And it was great. *laughs* It's really great. It was really peaceful. I was really content to be at home alone, it was me and the dog, I had the sunshine streaming through my bedroom window. And I felt ecstatically happy, I felt blessed that I had a beautiful view of the sky, I felt blessed that my bed was really comfortable. I felt blessed that I had friends that I could call up and ask for help if I needed it. But mostly I had just a sense of absolute peace around this illness, I felt like it was a gift to stop and be slow. And to take stock of everything that had just been achieved. And the illness allowed me to sit with it. 

And so it was a really interesting journey actually, absolutely 100% different to the journey that I went on in 2020, which was - I'm the most unhappy I've been in a long time, the stress of my relationship will take me under if I don't sort it out. You know, I had major kind of home anxieties and stresses going on around - I don't know if I can leave him. Is this the right thing, is this the wrong thing? What about the kids all of that? 

And so I can compare. Now just what I went through having done the work over the last few years to what we went through in 2020. And it's like, my immune system was so primed this time to just do its job. I didn't get in the way, I didn't create new neural pathways of terror and anxiety and dread. I didn't get myself sucked into a siphon of misery. I allowed myself to be in completely the opposite space to the space that I was when I met it the first time. And yeah, I took it as a gift. So - I can see you nodding like - Whoa *laughs*

Jackie Baxter  18:06  
Yeah, I mean, I am making this parallel to I think it was the first person I interviewed who had recovered possibly. And she said something like it being a silver lining, because it had given her an opportunity to kind of make the changes that she didn't realize she needed to make. And I remember at the time just wanting to throw something at her because I was like feeling utterly terrible. I had no idea what was going on. And I just thought how can you say something like that? And now you know, I'm looking back at it from a lot further along, I'm doing a lot better. I know a lot more what's going on. I know the things that I can do to help and all of those things. And I'm thinking I'm not sure I would ever say it was a good thing to have happened. But it certainly did make me realize that there were a lot of things in my life that I didn't realize that were unhealthy, which sounds ridiculous looking back on it, doesn't it? 

But there's so many things when you were just speaking like parallels, where you know, high levels of stress, you know, all of these things where you think, you know, you're pushing your body too hard. But that's what you've always done. So why can't you just keep doing that? And actually, I've spent the last - the last two years because my first year I was doing all the wrong things. But for the last couple of years, I have been basically working through all of this stuff and trying to fix it. So in some ways, I'm probably healthier than I was before I caught it the first time. 

And I can sort of see that and I can acknowledge it, but at the same time I still kind of - it's almost like the more better I get, the more fragile it seems. You know, I think - right, I'm doing so much better than I was. So it would be even worse now if I were to catch something else because you know, to have got to this point, then catch it again and quote unquote, go back to square one, then you know that would be even worse than you know getting it and going back to your square one when you're halfway there, for example.

Suzy Bolt  19:59  
So Actually, you're ramping the fear up, the better you get, rather than ramping it down.

Jackie Baxter  20:05  
Possibly. 

Suzy Bolt  20:06  
Oh, 

Jackie Baxter  20:07  
it seems logical in my head!

Suzy Bolt  20:09  
Of course it does, of course, because you're like I fought tooth and nail to get to where I am. I'm not letting it go. But I think there's something there that it's an opportunity for you to look at that mind-body connection. And to notice the importance of fear as a state in the body, that affects the nervous system. Now, what do we know about this virus, it's quite neurological, right, it's gonna go in for the nervous system, it's going to create dysfunction, it's going to create dysautonomia. And that state of fear and anxiety is priming that playground, so to speak, for the virus to come in and get access to all of the bits that you don't want it to get access to. 

So in a way, one of the things that I would really encourage you to do, Jackie, would be to spend some time trying to work out what would be the most reassuring thing to think about my body's ability to deal with this? What would be a state of kind of calm or peace? Or, you know, sort of acceptance that I could meet around it? How could I find that? What's in the way? Look at your beliefs? What are they? What are the opposite of them? And how could you begin to allow them to become the beliefs that you held, instead of the ones that are perhaps priming you to have a much more dramatic response to it? 

You know, and all of the work that any of the sort of recovery programs do whether it's mine, or, or, you know, there's there's all sorts of programs out there now, the Gupta program, the chronic fatigue school, whatever they're all about looking at how can you get your brain to work with you, rather than against you. Because you have to understand the significance of the brain's role, and the things that you think they're for, in the way your immune system works. So we have the influence now, you know, you don't have COVID now, you have influence over how you meet it, how you respond to it. So I would throw that into your toolkit and get you to start experimenting with, well, why don't I - now that I've primed my body to be ready, you know, to be healthy? Why don't I prime my brain? Because without that brain being aligned, your body is just kind of at the effect of it. 

So yeah, that would definitely be a piece that anyone listening, you know, and I have this conversation a lot in our classes, to really work to dig out the bits that aren't serving you and keep asking yourself, Is this the best thing that I could be doing with my brain right now? Is this the best thing - the answer will always be - Probably not. Is this helping me? No, is worrying about helping me? no - is catastrophizing it? No. And so actually, you can't just say, Well, I'm going to stop doing that - you have to replace it with something, you have to find the activity to give your brain because the brain always wants to be working. The brain always wants to focus a direction, well, what am I going to think? If I'm not thinking that thought - you have to create the thought you're gonna think. So like my thought, my immune system is my superpower. I think that fairly often. And I particularly think it around people who are not well - around my children around you know, if I've gone out somewhere, I might reassure myself by putting my hand on my heart and saying, it's okay, because your immune system is your superpower, you've got this, no need to worry at all. And I'm just constantly reassuring my body, my brain, you know, Hey, it's okay. Don't worry. And it seems to be working really rather well. 

So I've seen a lot of people come through our Fern program who are using this tool now to really great advantage. You know, there's someone who's had myocarditis twice, and she was basically told - you can't leave the house. Because if you catch it again, that might be it. And I can remember thinking, well, she's kind of damned if she does, and she's damned if she doesn't, right, because she will become incredibly unhappy, depressed and isolated if she can't leave the house. And her life becomes about hiding from the potential risks that living your life faces. 

Or she could do a whole load of work on her brain and engage with joy, and focus on the stuff that feels good and gratitude, and believe that her immune system will be able to handle it. And she has done some amazing work on all of that. And now allows herself to go out and live a life. And she takes precautions, but she's like, You know what, this is better than staying at home hiding. I'm having fun. I'm doing the things I want to do. I'm getting outside. I'm meeting people. I want my life to be that. I don't want my life to be based around a fear. 

And actually, you know, and I've talked to Boon Lim about this, our lovely cardiology friend. And he said, it's really, really important to engage in joy and gratitude to, as we've said, you know, you're creating that internal health state that allows the immune system to work better than a state of fear, paranoia and anxiety. So it's worth doing, you know, you have to have courage, she was very brave to do it. And I've been kind of just checking in with her and, and seeing how happy she is. And that state of happiness creates a super state of health, right? That's the kind of the pay back. A state of anxiety and fear will create a compromised immune system. So it's a bit tricky, right? Because everyone is hiding from something, they don't want to get sick. And they're like, you're just telling me I need to start being happier. *laughs* Yep, deliberately, consciously, happier, look for joy, literally, rather than the reasons why you need to hide, and keep yourself safe.

Jackie Baxter  26:13  
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it totally makes sense. And I think we sort of touched on this just before we started recording, and then realized we should probably just start recording *laughs* which was this sort of perceived risk and different people's idea of risk, and how that can cause friction between family, friends, partners, and it's something that I personally - this comes up with my partner and I all the time, you know, I want to do things very safely. And, you know, it's not like he wants to go out clubbing every night, but you know, he wants to be able to go and do things like going into the office sometimes. And that is the sort of thing that fills me with a huge amount of fear, because he's gonna go and pick up COVID, isn't he? 

And, you know, and I think this, this sort of friction is happening, you know, you see it in social media all over the place, you know, people having discussions, quote, unquote, discussions, aggressive discussions, you know, amongst family and friends about this sort of thing. And, I mean, we find that we're coming from two different sides of it, you know, he hasn't experienced COVID, or if he has, he didn't notice, whereas I have, you know, basically put my life on hold for three years as a result of it. So my idea of the perceived risk is much, much higher than his, for example, and I think, you know, that's probably mirrored in a lot of people's situations, isn't it?

Suzy Bolt  27:29  
Oh god, it's, it's everywhere, you know, anyone that that's going through this and is in a relationship, and you know, isn't just locking themselves away to deal with it by themselves is going to be dealing with this very issue. And you can see it from both sides, you know, it must be incredibly hard work to be the carer of someone, and then as they start to get better to then witness them refusing to come back out the door. Because at some point, you go, we've got to move on from this, but then the person that's refusing to come back out the door is going - but I cannot go back to that place that I've just been, no way, it's just not an option. And then tension inevitably will come. 

And I think, you know, one of the things that I always talk about is allow yourself to begin to stretch slowly. I call it 5% stretch, just do 5%. You know, if you want to go and socialize somewhere, just do 5% of it, just begin to build up confidence that it's possible. And I think that's really important. Otherwise, you're both signing up to a relationship that's dysfunctional, that will always cause tension. And I think, you know, this is where we come back to the fact that this is based around fear, and not necessarily a guaranteed event that will happen, which is why it is so important to deal with the fear, it's really important to deal with it. 

And, you know, I will come back to the point that I made earlier about the amount of people that say that we're so glad they caught it again, because it's made them go, Oh, God, that thing that was kind of really keeping me prisoner has set me free because it wasn't nearly as bad. And I'm back up and out the other side. And it's, you know, it's going to be frustrating if you're asking someone else to change their life long term, in order to keep you safe, to keep you in a space of fear-based living. And what we're looking for, the ultimate goal is to come out of a place of fear-based living and go back into living your life fully again, so that both you and your partner can enjoy life in the way that you want to. 

It has to be something that you both create a plan around, I think, and there has to be a little bit of flex and a little bit of give, but mostly understanding, you know, for him to really - and I'm sure he does understand it, but for him to hear it, but also to perhaps hear or what are you going to do about changing the status quo. Knowing that you can't sit and wait for something to be different. I don't know what that would look like, you know, is there a point where you go, I'll come out now? And you can go into the office now? Or is there a point? Because if there isn't, then you're asking him to sign up for something that feels like forever. And actually, it would be lovely for both of you to say, Okay, well, why don't we just do this together gently, slowly, respectfully, paying attention to the things that make me really afraid and asking myself just to do 5% of it. 

I think there needs to be a little bit of budge, especially because what we don't know is that it's definitely going to make you ill, we don't know that. We know that chances are, at some point, you'll be exposed to it. And it might not even be doing something that's in your stretch, it might just be going into a corner shop and picking something up. And you know, suddenly, oh, no, here we go. And that's it, you know, we cannot let this virus close down our lives forever. And there's a state of mind that is holding your autonomic nervous system sort of to hostage at the moment, that would be really worth loosening the edges. And I'm not saying get rid of the state of mind, because at the moment you feel like it's an essential piece of keeping you safe and well, and I get that completely. But it's also holding you hostage. And I think wouldn't it be great if you could believe that you could be safe and well, and back out doing life? Wouldn't that be great?

Jackie Baxter  31:43  
I think I see it as this kind of paradox where in order to recover, I need to feel safe. 

Suzy Bolt  31:50  
Yeah, of course, 

Jackie Baxter  31:51  
But how can I feel safe, if I sit here like sitting duck almost, you know, say, say he wants to go to the pub, you know, he might go to the pub once, twice, three, four times and be fine. And then the fifth time he brings it home, but you know, I'm sitting here like a sitting duck. So I'm in this constant state of fear, which means I can't get better. And that fear is suppressing my immune system and everything else. So it's kind of this like weird, vicious circle where you know that everything is just kind of prolonging everything

Suzy Bolt  32:19  
it is now the fear that's keeping you stuck. And you know, that lovely saying there is nothing to fear but fear itself. I think it really really makes true here, you know, this is your last symptom. And probably the most significant one for you to work on. She's nodding,

Jackie Baxter  32:39  
*laughs* it's just kind of percolating through my poor little brain.

Suzy Bolt  32:42  
I get it. Yeah. For the listener, her chin is going up and down like whoo, okay. But so how does that feel? When you think about the idea of working on the fear itself as a symptom? 

Jackie Baxter  32:55  
Terrifying? 

Suzy Bolt  32:57  
Yeah, of course, because it is the thing in your mind that's holding you afloat. Which is why this kind of work needs help. You can't just sit at home and go, right, I'm going to decide today to not be afraid anymore of the thing that's just totally messed my life up for the past three years. That's not how we do it. We do it gently. You do it with support, you do it with professionals, but you do the work. I absolutely 100% recommend you to get support, proper support, to help you navigate yourself into a space where you feel that you can move on from the fear and change the shape of it. So it's not limiting your life anymore. 

And again, there'll be lots of different strands to that - there will be you know, reading stories of reinfection. You know, if you've liked recovery stories, then you'll like reinfection stories. There's loads of them. You know, I know some people who've had four now, they kind of you know, and - Your face is like oh my god, and it's like no, no, it was fine. It's fine. they've recovered, and it hasn't set them back to square one. It hasn't done that. Both of my second and my third reinfections didn't really exacerbate anything that was going on for me long term last time at all. I recognized the virus - it was like, oh, yeah, okay. I'm tired. I'm a bit foggy. Yes, I had a whole load of throat stuff going on this time that was quite vicious. 

But you know, this morning, just before I've done this, I've just done my first hit class again. And I'm back lifting weights and lifting lighter weights, admittedly, today, but you know, where am I now? I'm kind of three weeks maybe from start to finish. And yeah, I'm back in the room. And I think you know, it's really possible and I know what will be going on inside your head - But it won't be like that from me. You'll be like No, the voice, right? The saboteur, the one that's keeping you safe, it's doing a really good job. And so it will clearly saying to you, but that won't be me. That was Suzy, that won't be me. And other people's stories, right? That won't be me, because they're not me. 

I think the work that is missing from all of the stuff that you've done, is this piece now on understanding the impact of having this fear on your nervous system, and on your ability to kind of shed the skin, it's like taking off an identity. And putting it down slowly, piece by piece going, it's okay, I'll just take the jacket off and see how we feel. And then I'll just take the hat off. And I'll just take off the trousers and you know, just kind of gently, and then put on different clothes again. 

In fact, one of the things I always encourage people to do is go back into your wardrobe and start wearing the clothes that you haven't worn for ages, just put it on, walk around the house in it for half an hour. Put on a nice outfit for antimony used to go out dancing in or whatever it was that you'd like to doing, start to remember who you were, or the bits of it that you want to take forwards, you know. Who are the bits that I miss about being me, and start to re-identify them. Because there'll be lots of parts of you that you're not able to connect with, because the fear keeps you inside a lot. And actually, we kind of need to fall in love with being ourselves again, but a kind of brave and courageous version.

Jackie Baxter  36:39  
Yeah, that's a really interesting point, actually, because this illness takes like so many things from us that we almost forget, it's like you can't be yourself, because you can't do any of the things that made you you anymore. So then that sort of, I don't know, I feel like I've kind of gone inside myself to the point where I don't even recognize myself half the time. And you know, as I have started to improve, then, you know, I've sort of got bits of me back. But, you know, I don't think I'm ever going to be the me that I was before. And I think that's probably a good thing. Yeah, but there are some bits of me that I would quite like back.

Suzy Bolt  37:18  
Yeah, of course, there are, of course, 

Jackie Baxter  37:20  
but I also thought it was quite interesting what you were saying, you know, obviously, our body will recognize the virus. So I suppose that's kind of our immune system will recognize it. But I guess, I mean, over the last couple of years, you know, I've been working on things like my breathing and regulating my nervous system, and all of these things that I've been doing that help. So I suppose if I were to get sick again, then I would probably know a bit better how to deal with it. Whereas the first time it was just kind of like Holy hell, what is this?

Suzy Bolt  37:54  
Yeah, right, what the heck is going on? For sure. So on my YouTube channel, there is a workshop actually there that I think we ran, managing the fear of reinfection. And I think it's as we were coming out of that second lockdown post Christmas. And I ran a workshop just to begin to help people think about the idea of coming out again, coming, how do we come out of our houses and go back into the world where we know this virus is still there? 

And, you know, the major learning that that came up was, we know it, we know what to do, and we know what not to do. We know that we instantly stop. We know that we hydrate, we know that if we need to take our antihistamines, we know that we rest, rest, rest like a professional, we know that stress will create a more exacerbated response in the body. We know to calm and to do our breath work, we know to just relax, and surrender and nourish and all of those things. Do not fight it, do not push through it, don't keep going - instantly down tools and take yourself away and lie down. And that's it. 

And actually, you know, once people started to think about it, like of course, yeah, because what did we do last time? Well, we probably carried on working for a bit, or we thought we'd keep exercising or we keep walking the dog at least twice a day or you know, whatever it is and just pushing, pushing, pushing, cause someone's got to, someone's got to do it. And actually, I think we all learned the hard way that no, it's not what you do with this. So okay. You know, and I think there was a lovely, but I think we had around 100 people in, there was a lovely moment where everyone went, Oh my God. Yeah, there's loads we do differently. Great. Okay, you're already breaking that pattern. 

And it reminded me of I don't know, I don't think you've had kids, Jackie, but I've had two and the first one was like, oh, whoa, that was a thing. Second time round. It was like, Okay, I recognize this. I know what's going to happen, and I know what to do and what not to do. And it was a complete different experience. 

You know, we've got the experience of what we don't want to do to ourselves when we've got this virus in us. And so we've learned so much on the way that we now know what would be the best thing for us to do. And, you know, I was telling Boon actually, last week when I saw him, he said, So how was it having it the third time? And you know, how did you find the experience? And I said, You know what, it was blissfully happy. And he was like, What? I said, Yeah, because you know, everything that I've already told you, I was just in such a state of kind of relaxation. And like, I'd achieved all of these things I knew I set out to achieve, just after I'd got my first infection, it's like, I need to change my relationship, I need to change what's happening in my life need to reduce my stress. And I've gone on that journey, and I've done it. So it was like reaching the finish line. 

So yeah, I met it with open arms and just went Come on, then. Let's get it out the way. And actually, I'm going on holiday on Friday, for a week. And I just thought, great, because I don't have to deal with turning up on my beautiful holiday that I've booked for myself. And realizing on day two I'm gonna test positive, because I just wasn't up for that, you know, and I would have been fine. But I was just kind of, you know, wouldn't it be great if I don't? And so my, my body very cleverly went, let's just get it done before and then you're all in a nice and clear state, you're probably not going to catch it for a while, go out there and have a great time. 

So yeah, my mental framing of it now is entirely different to the framing that I had originally. And I can remember saying to, you know, talking of neural pathways, the guy I worked with Ross, just before the gyms closed down in 2020. I said to him, if this virus meets me, I'm going to get really sick. I remember saying it to him really loudly and clearly. What happened? For sure. I got really sick. So I've changed that belief, you know, I've just changed it. Yeah, it's had an extraordinary impact on my immune system, reshaping the beliefs that I had around my own health. And I'm not saying you know, I can heal myself of everything and anything, but I'm just saying, I'm priming my brain to be on my side. When something next comes along. And so far, I seem to be doing incredibly well.

Jackie Baxter  42:24  
Yeah, so it's putting your self - so your body and your mind and everything - in the best possible place to deal with whatever it is that comes along, I guess, isn't it?

Suzy Bolt  42:36  
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And really understanding the role of the brain in your health, in your immune systems actions and activities, really understanding that and you know, a lot of people find that really hard to come to terms with, and that there's a belief that the virus creates the response in the body. The virus doesn't actually create the response in the body, the brain creates the response to the virus, the virus is, you know, a pretty vicious knid, to quote Roald Dahl, but it's our response to it, which is why we're all so different, which is why some people die from it, and some people don't notice it at all, you know, so it's not the virus that if you meet it, it will kill you. It's our own bodies, and our kind of physiology's response to it. 

So we have to understand that we can definitely prime ourselves to be less responsive. And a lot of that will be on staying calm, focusing on what you can do, trusting that it will be okay. You know, allowing the nervous system to just always regulate, noticing those very destructive, catastrophic thoughts, the anxiety, the fear, the dread, all of which creates a heightened state within the body, which can go on to lead to other things, which we don't want, we don't want that - we want to create the optimum state to be able to kind of glide through it with grace.

Jackie Baxter  44:03  
Yeah, that is very reassuring, actually. I mean we know that there are some people who are much more at risk from any sort of infection, you know, people who are immunocompromised, for example, and I know that some people with long COVID consider themselves to be you know, more at risk. And, you know, I mean, before I caught COVID, I wouldn't have considered myself to be high risk at all, you know, on paper, I should have been completely fine. It's only with a sort of 2020 hindsight that is looking back on it to realize that maybe I wasn't quite so healthy as I thought. But how do people in these sort of more at risk groups kind of, you know, there's going to already be more fear isn't there? 

Suzy Bolt  44:45  
Of course, 

Jackie Baxter  44:46  
before you even start?

Suzy Bolt  44:47  
you know, it's it then just boils down to the individual. So I have - one of my best friends has lupus and it affects her lungs and she has a degenerative lung condition. And, you know, she was basically put on super high risk, do not leave the house ever, ever. And then of course, there's a point where you go, Okay, well, you've stood down all of those, all of those warnings and all of those kinds of you know, safekeeping actions, and you've just gone Get back out there into the fray and crack on. And so actually, that's what she's done. She's gone, you know, what I'm not staying in - what life is that? I don't want to just hide in my house. I know, I have a pretty chronic autoimmune condition going on. Therefore, I'm going to live the life I want to live. 

You know, she's a psychotherapist, she understands the role of fear on her immune system, and, you know, understands why she has an autoimmune condition to do some childhood trauma and, you know, various bits and pieces. Therefore, you know, the evidence is there that the brain's role in this is linked all the way through, you know, this is not just new, this is, you know, her body has been dealing with this, the role of the brain, the emotional states, the impact it has, what you end up with. I'm not saying that everyone's you know, autoimmune conditions are based around childhood trauma and events. But if you read the work of Gabor Mate, you know, there is very much link to our immune systems and emotional trauma. 

And so she said, Well, actually, if I stay in, if I choose to stay in and hide from a virus that might or might not kill me, I'm basically creating the perfect storm for if the virus - when the virus - meets me, because for sure it will, you know, at some point, we're going to have to go out and go to the supermarket. So she just started living her life again. And I think she's had it twice now. And it gave her a really bad chesty cough for about four weeks, then she cracked on. And she was like, Oh, well, there you go. She said, I could have stayed in my house forever, right? You know, if I was going to be someone driven by fear, or I could have just gone out there and gone to hell with it. Let me just live and see what happens. Because she said, the life I want to live is the one I'm going to live. And I don't want to stay inside. Because then I'm alive but I'm not living my life. So what's the point? 

So I kind of liked your attitude, obviously, as her as a really good friend, I was a bit like, Oh, my God, what are you doing? I don't know if you should play with this virus. But you know, her kind of steely determination to not be compromised with it was actually pretty cool. You know, looking back at it now. I think I was a little angry with her at the time. I think actually, she also didn't even bother testing to see if things were COVID. She was just like, yeah, it probably is, I'm not even going to test - that's how far down the line she went with - What is the point in knowing or not knowing, you know, how's it gonna help me? If I get super sick I'll go to hospital. I have a team that, you know, know me by name. It's okay. So, yeah, I think we really do have to understand the role of fear, and how it can definitely be holding you back and preventing you from perhaps experiencing this virus in a way that is much of a lighter touch, much lighter touch than, than you're going to be, you know, thinking about it being if it meets you.

Jackie Baxter  48:19  
Yeah, so it's coming back to, you know, focusing on what you can do. I have that on a post-it note above my computer from when Boon Lim said it to me, "don't let what you cannot do prevent you from doing what you can". 

Suzy Bolt  48:33  
Absolutely. 

Jackie Baxter  48:33  
And that made such a difference to me at the time, but I think it applies here as well, in this context, just as much as in anything else?

Suzy Bolt  48:42  
Absolutely. You know, if you're living a happier life where you're not being held hostage by the fear of reinfection, you're creating a state in your body that allows you to be healthier. That's it full stop. So, you know, engage with joy. Rather than manage the fear of reinfection, I would say put that to the side as much as that's allowed to nudge out of central focus. And just go Okay, what am I going to do that I love doing? What am I going to do with my partner that we love doing together? How can we do 5% of the stuff that makes me really stressed about the idea of doing it? If we want to go to the pub - you know, at some point, we're going to be moving to nicer weather, right? Maybe we can all go and be outside. 

Just allowing yourself to laugh, to feel connected to create a superstate inside you of joy, happiness, remembering what it's like to be Jackie, that goes out and has lots of fun. It's going to be a much nicer version of your life than the version of you that is being held hostage by fear. And you'll look back on it when you're older. And you'll go God, thank God I broke that habit. Because that was really keeping me stuck. And I was young and that's not a good way to do your youth, you know, there's going to be lots of time when you're older to sit inside and look out the window and go, Well, you know, I'm nice and safe inside, you got a lot of time for that ahead, it's definitely worth having a go at nudging the edges of this one now. 

And get help, you know, particularly if the fear is big, and it's a big central focus, get some support with it. And I'm not saying put yourself at risk, I think it's really important. But what I am saying is, just begin to notice what you can change around what you believe to be risks. Like, how can I soften what my guidelines are for what I will and won't do, just to allow yourself to open up and have more fun.

Jackie Baxter  50:43  
Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really lovely to catch up with you actually. But more importantly, I think it's given us all some really useful sort of information and a slightly different slant on it, I think, which will be helpful for me, and I'm sure for everybody else. So thank you so much.

Suzy Bolt  51:01  
You're so welcome. Good luck with it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai