98 - Charlotte Hammond - Long Covid Recovery

Episode 98 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Charlotte Hammond who is sharing her recovery story! We chat through her initial illness, symptoms, what she found that helped as well as more useful stuff for those still suffering.

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(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID podcast, I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Charlotte Hammond, who has come along to share her recovery story. So I am super excited to dive into this - a very warm welcome to the podcast. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Hello. 

Jackie Baxter  
So this is gonna be really fun. To begin with, would you mind just saying a little about yourself and maybe your life before COVID?

Charlotte Hammond  
So I am 30 years old. Before COVID, I was living in Birmingham, I was head of English and modern foreign languages in a quite tough, quite big school. I had my own house, I had cats, and I was quite a busy person. I was always doing things. I went out a lot with my friends. And I think I was somebody who wasn't brilliant at giving myself a break for things. I think I was somebody who was quite, you know, I guess they call it Type A. 

And then, sort of in the months before I got COVID, I had a really tough time at work. So my nervous system was like, not in a good place anyway. And I moved to a new school, which was very - everyone was working 12 hour days. And, you know, there wasn't a culture of taking a break. I mean, you know, my, my manager, he'd had a heart attack and hadn't taken a break. So it was a very, like, intense environment. And that's when I fell ill. So it's kind of a perfect storm. Really.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think we probably need to be careful about stereotyping, because there's exceptions to every rule. But there certainly does seem to be quite a pattern with people who are working a lot of hours, maybe in quite a stressful environment, maybe doing quite a lot else on top of that. I was exactly the same. 

And, you know, I didn't see this as being a problem. I just thought this was what I did. And you know, if someone had turned around and said to me, You're doing quite a lot. I would just be like, Yeah, I do. But I don't think I even really noticed it because I was surrounded by other people who were doing the same. So why was it a problem if I was doing it, if everybody else was as well? 

And I suppose that's where we come along with this thing - Well, why did this happen to me? And it didn't happen to all these other people who were also living the same lifestyle? And I suppose that's the question, isn't it. 

Charlotte Hammond  
That's the thing they don't know, isn't it? So? 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I can relate to a lot of what you just said, in my own pre-COVID lifestyle, for sure. So it sounds like you actually probably got ill at school?

Charlotte Hammond  
So I'm pretty sure, obviously can never be 100%. But a colleague of mine got COVID a few days before I did. So I think it's pretty likely that I picked it up at the school. And I think, you know, for a while there was a lot of, I had a lot of emotions around that. Because I think you know, COVID safety protocol isn't you know, there aren't that many rules about what has to happen in schools. And I think our school was on the more lax end of that. So I think that was something that for a long time, I found quite difficult kind of watching people not following guidelines, and more so watching people getting COVID and getting quite ill from it, and then not taking a break afterwards. 

I was like, no, please take a break. Because I didn't. I decided that being ill meant that I should try and you know, clean the house and get all the jobs done. When I was exhausted, and that was obviously just the worst thing that I could have done. So yeah, I think that was something for a while, that I had to learn to kind of accept that people are going to do their own thing. And you know, people have to learn their own lessons about it really.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, definitely. And I suppose you know, like we were saying before, about, you know, there being certainly a lot of people with this kind of sort of personality, lifestyle that end up with long COVID. We are exactly the sort of people that do the worst possible thing when we get sick. Because we're always busy. We're like, oh, well, I'm ill, I'm not going to let that stop me. I again, that was sort of what I did. And certainly I've heard the same from quite a few other people. 

And it's interesting how your perspective changes once you've kind of entered this world, isn't it? Because I remember, you know, during my journey, I was looking at other people who were getting COVID left, right and center. And I was thinking, you know, partly why are you putting yourself in the position where you're going to get it, because look what happened to me. But also, you know, please, please don't make the same mistakes that so many of us have made before. You know, we know that this is a nasty virus. Yes, we know that some people seem to be okay. But we also know that plenty of people aren't. So, you know, please respect your body, you know, and don't push through. 

But, you know, plenty of people did and you know, plenty of people did seem to get away with it, but so many didn't. And I think yeah, seeing it from this other side, certainly for me was actually quite triggering. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, 

Jackie Baxter  
I think I can get people you know, trying to push through, trying to keep working, trying to, as you say, clean the house. But I suppose it's one of those things. That's when you're like, quote unquote, young, fit and healthy, you feel indestructible. And the thought that this could happen to you is like, Well, it won't happen to me because I'm Wyoung, fit and healthy", or you know, whatever. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, definitely. 

Jackie Baxter  
So when was it that you actually got ill?

Charlotte Hammond  
So it's the end of October 2021. So it was just at the beginning of my half term, so I was gutted. Obviously, looking back, that was not the big tragedy, it felt like at the time. I was like, Oh, my God, I'm missing a week of like fun things. And it turns out, it was longer. So yeah, I got ill then. And just the same as a lot of other people, I wasn't like ill enough remotely that I ever considered needing to go to hospital or anything like that. My breathing wasn't great. I was just so fatigued, and it just felt like it was going to go away. And of course, it just didn't. 

And it just kept sort of dragging on, I tried to go back to work after kind of two weeks off, and went back in for three days and just made myself so much ill-er, which I think a lot of people did. And I remember kind of sitting in a meeting with someone at work and just thinking, I'm not going to be able to work here. They weren't in a place where they could really let me take my foot off the pedal as well. And I was like, this just isn't going to work. So yeah, I kind of had to come to terms with that really early on, but I wasn't going to have the job I loved anymore. And then it just kind of developed from there, really.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I mean, I suppose again, it's you know, we talk about reasonable adjustments and things like this in the workplace. And, you know, I also worked in education, and, you know, like, just going back in a way that would work for me just wasn't really an option. You maybe, you know, if your employer had allowed you, you know, certain things, then maybe there might have been ways to do it. But I think like looking back on it for me, education is such a stressful environment, or it certainly can be such a stressful environment, that that stress on top of you not being anywhere near 100%, actually would have been the worst thing for me to do, would be to have tried to go back, I think. 

But you know, there were so many people that did because they felt they had to, or maybe they did have to financially. And thinking about that kind of stress, you know, and education is not going to be the only stressful job environment in the world. But you know, it's one I have personal experience of for sure. And yeah, just kind of thinking back to the sort of the stress it put on me, even before I was ill, it is very, very interesting, isn't it? 

You know, a lot of people who have recovered that I've spoken to, did allow themselves to take that time off, and did just let their body do it. Or, you know, found the things that help, but they needed a bit of a clean kind of break. Anyway, we totally sidetracked there. You were talking about your initial illness and did that just kind of develop into long COVID? What did that look like for you?

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, just at first, it was just not getting better, and it was just going on and on. And then it did start to get worse. I think a lot of it was you know, I lived on my own. And that was fine when I was out and about and doing things. But you know, my friends were all in their 20s, they didn't know what to do. And my sort of older friends, people who would have come around and helped me with things, lived in other places. So I was a bit isolated, and I was trying to do everything myself still. And you know, I just kept getting ill-er. 

So eventually, it took me kind of four months or so to make the decision, I moved back in with my parents. So I'm now in the countryside, in Buckinghamshire, and that was just the only thing that would have worked, it was just the best thing to do. You know, I was lucky I was a homeowner. So I was able to rent my house out and financially kind of kept afloat that way. But it was a really tough decision. 

But like, you know, a lot of people say with Long COVID, you just really have to pare it right back to, you know, what you can do and what your energy levels will allow. And it's shocking how little that is at first, you know, I mean, I was managing maybe five minute walks, you know. When I was at my worst, quite often not not even that, not leaving the house. And it was such a change. But then slowly did start to get better. So it took a few months to kind of get to the point where I wasn't declining, and I was actually kind of improving.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point about it just, a quote unquote healthy person cannot understand just how little someone with long COVID, or any chronic condition I would imagine, can actually do. And that was something I really struggled with to start with. Because, you know, I was a very active person beforehand. 

So I was like, Oh, well, I just need to like you know, do a little bit less. So, you know, I can still try to go running. It didn't go well. And you know, yeah, I was trying to do too much, far, far, far too much for far too long. And like you, I was getting worse and worse and worse. But it took me quite a long time to really find that kind of, I don't know, people call it baseline, don't they - of how little I could do before I wasn't actually getting worse. And even then some of those days where you know, you wouldn't describe them as enjoyable.

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, definitely not. When you're in that, it can feel like a very isolating experience. And I think, because it's unlikely that you're going to have other people in your life who have the same condition. I think that's where things like this and like the online community is so important, because seeing other people who are having it, and also other people who are getting better. I think if you didn't have that, it would feel like something that was just going to last forever, and there's just nothing worse than feeling awful. And just thinking, I'm never gonna feel better, you know?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, exactly. And, like you say, it's very isolating. And when you're kind of, in it, especially when you're in a really bad kind of phase of it, it's like all hope is gone, everything is awful, there's no way that you can ever recover. It's not like, you know, you can't even imagine having a slightly better day, you know, when you're in that really kind of bottom of the trough kind of thing. 

And, you know, I was quite lucky to have a supportive partner. But in some ways, even having him almost sometimes made it feel worse, because I was comparing myself to him and what we used to be doing, and, you know, I suppose it's a very different thing. I remember saying to him at one point, I can't even imagine what this would have been like if I'd been on my own, like, I was no way I would have coped. But at the same time, I think life would have been much more about, I need to survive, you know, so today's energy is going to go on making dinner. 

Whereas what I was thinking was, well, he's making dinner. So what else can I do, which was a terrible idea, and it was making me worse. And it took me a long time to realize that, that actually, if he was making dinner, that meant that I could rest and not try to do other things. And that was when I started to sort of see some improvement, was when I stopped trying to do things that I shouldn't be. But it was just this idea of the things that you shouldn't be doing were just so unimaginably small ,that you couldn't comprehend it when you're still kind of in that previous kind of, I don't know, it was almost like it took a long time for my brain to adjust to the new circumstances.

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, I think people expect you to be a different person from the moment you get ill, and you're still the same person in your head. I remember quite early on in my illness, I was having a slightly better day. And I'd managed like a five minute stroll. I hadn't been at the house for a while. And I sort of told my friend and she was like, Oh, that's good. And I was like, No, isn't it you know, because I was still in my, I was like, you wouldn't say it was good if you'd only managed to get out the house for five minutes. I was quite annoyed when she said that. But obviously, like her heart was in the right place. And she was just thinking of me as this new person, that sick person, but I was still my old self in my head. And to some extent, I still am. But I'm also massively changed. It's it's a funny, it's a funny thing. Really.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think that would be a really interesting thing to talk about, actually. But I would love to hear a little bit about what you found that helped?

Charlotte Hammond  
I was really, really lucky in that we were able to have a few meetings with a private doctor who was incredible. And the reason he was so good, one of the reasons was he'd had Long COVID himself. And he treated the whole person. And that was something that I was really missing, sort of before. So he didn't say It's all in your head. But he equally recognized that the brain and the body are so connected, and that all of these things sort of come together. 

So I found quite a few different things helpful in the early stages. I changed my diet. And that was really great. So I went Gluten Free, sugar free. That was really, really helpful. And then also cold water. I know that I think you love love a bit of cold water swimming as well. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I do I do it. 

Charlotte Hammond  
But I think when I couldn't exercise, I was like, Oh, I can't do that. But actually just getting in the cold water is obviously so good for you. And just cold showers and stuff were really good. So that was helpful. But I think also just kind of, he gave me the permission to celebrate really, really small wins. And to kind of have new aims in life, I think, because he understood where I was at, it really helped me. He understood it better than I did. It really helped me to scale back my expectations and find that baseline a lot quicker than I would have done otherwise. So that was the main thing that helped me kind of in the early stages.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, definitely. I mean, like I was saying earlier, you know, it took me a long time to realize how little I should be doing. And I think, you know, I spent quite a lot of time doing the wrong things. You know, and I think if I hadn't spent so long doing the wrong things, and I had found some of the right things earlier on actually, I probably would have recovered quicker. But at the same time, you know, berating myself for doing the wrong things is kind of not helpful is it. But that's really interesting that you did, you kind of managed to get onto that kind of idea a little bit quicker, certainly seems to have maybe helped.

Charlotte Hammond  
Just because of the help really, I mean, the very first doctor I went to see told me to walk every day and you know, do all this stuff, which I started doing and but very quickly felt ill-er, so I was very, very lucky to kind of be put in touch with this particular person. Also, you know, it wasn't just lifestyle stuff, he did also give me supplements, he gave me kind of, like anti histamines and stuff. And that will really help my body just to start repairing itself. And kind of felt big for me because it felt like he was legitimizing it, you know, by kind of prescribing me things. It was like, this is an illness. This is not, you know, you're just more tired than everyone else. And I think that was quite big as well. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, absolutely. That, I think really being listened to. It's so important, isn't it? I mean, you know, you hear about a lot of people being gaslit by their doctors, you know, which I'm sure is awful. I didn't experience that as such, but it was more, possibly because I was ill very early on. It was like, there were no doctors, you know, there was nobody there to listen, there was nobody to say, we're not sure what's going on. But yes, you are ill. No, you're not the only person. You know, there are other people out there kind of thing. 

It was more than, you know, actually even just getting hold of a doctor was impossible. And even then they'd like you know what, you're just not ill enough for me to really have the time to listen to. So I think really being heard. I think we maybe underestimate that sometimes, don't we? You know, when when you're really really struggling? You're really really unwell. For someone just to sort of say, I hear you. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, I think I hear you. And then also, I'm curious about how we can make you better, because I think even hearing from a doctor, I hear you, but there's nothing I can do. You're so frustrated because you think, okay, but we need to do something - I can't just be like this forever, you know, I was perfectly healthy before. And now I'm like, you know, disabled, can't leave the house, all of these things. 

And what was really good, what was really important for me was that he was like, Okay, well, if you're having this symptom, you know, let's try this thing. Let's try these things and see if it works. And it kind of felt like a dialogue, which obviously, is what healthcare should be. So that was really huge. 

And then also, you know, my parents were just on board from the start, and believed me, and could see how ill I was and could see what worked and what didn't. And that was also living with people who were kind of backing me up and supporting me, even when I didn't support myself, was a really big thing as well. It's hard if you're on your own, I think.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like you had a really good support system in place. And you were lucky with your doctor that, as you say, not only did he hear you, but he also was willing to try things. Because you hear this quite a lot in healthcare, I think, they're so Oh, well, we don't really know what to do, so we won't try anything. And, you know, obviously, there has to be a kind of a line. But you know, there are so many things that could be tried that, you know, there is now evidence that people are certainly helping people. So, you know, I think there were a lot of things that people should be encouraged or helped to try. 

I guess, again, you know, early on, there was less knowledge of this. And even now, I think, you know, some doctors maybe are just quite scared of trying things. I mean, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence, but in terms of like actual papers and things, there probably isn't so much, because, you know, I suppose in terms of medicine, and, you know, research and time and stuff, we are quite early days, 

Charlotte Hammond  
I mean, maybe some of the other people have had different experiences, but definitely my experience with the NHS, I've had maybe one helpful appointment. And I think a lot of the problem is, is that there are so many different things that are affected by long COVID for most people. I had things like, you know, my hair was falling out, I had palpitations, I had all these different things. And, and, you know, I think doctors had a hard time believing it was all based on the same thing, I think, you know, and that there was like a root cause to it all, because it just presented as quite complicated. So yeah, I think that's something that it's hard for the medical profession to get their head around a bit. And maybe my doctor having had it himself, that's why he was more able to understand kind of where I was coming from with it.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember somebody describing the healthcare system. And I don't think this is just the UK, I suspect it's probably kind of globally, as being kind of very siloed. You know, you have people who are very, very talented in their specialty, which is not a bad thing, I'm sure. But also it means that we lack this ability to be able to see the whole picture. So if somebody is very focused on one specific area of, say, the heart, you know that's great if there's someone that has just a problem with their heart, but for somebody with long COVID, for example, where you've got palpitations and breathing problems and your gut's going crazy, and your hair's falling out, and you're, you know, all of these different things. It's actually there's nobody really joining the dots, in a kind of helpful way isn't there? 

And I don't know, I mean, I'm an eternal optimist, I think, and I think one of my hopes is that you know, out of all of this complete to a horror show of the last few years, that, you know, there will maybe be some silver linings and maybe there'll be more understanding of chronic illness for one, and more empathy to people who are suffering with that. But also that maybe the healthcare system will be able to see the person as a whole in a way that it doesn't at the moment. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, I think yeah, I mean, so many people have kind of had various, you know, on the spectrum of long COVID, various things. I think it's hard to imagine that it won't improve, and that it won't help other people with chronic illnesses, because, you know, stuff that's going to work for long COVID is going to work for chronic fatigue syndrome, all sorts of things, isn't it? So? Yeah,

Jackie Baxter  
yes, exactly. I mean, there's, you know, what triggered it in the first place. There's, there's so many crossovers, and, you know, I think the debate is still raging about whether they are one and the same thing, but even if they're not, there's so many similarities that, as you say, you know, something that's gonna work for one is, at the very least going to benefit the other. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  
So yeah, you're talking about some of the things that helped you. And yeah, I'm a massive fan of the cold water as well, that's been a huge thing for me. How did things kind of progressed from there. 

Charlotte Hammond  
So basically, what that did is it helps me to reach a more functional baseline, like it meant that I was having a life that was worth living, really, you know. I was able to most days, do something for two to three hours, whether that was I might go outside, or whether that was, you know, I like writing, whether it was doing a bit writing, whatever. So that obviously, my mental health went right up after kind of being able to do those things. And it kind of was slowly going up. 

And I think, basically, I managed to get some medication, I don't think I'm allowed to share the details of what I was able to get. But that sped up my recovery. I think, though, I was kind of slowly, you know, I was just kind of going up the steps. And I think had I not been able to, not been very fortunate and it kind of sped up, then I would have got there, but just got there a bit more slowly, maybe. 

But I think that's why these medical trials are so important, because it is, you know, it's a proper illness, and it needs medication like, there is a thing that's going wrong inside people's bodies. And that can be fixed. So I think it's great that they're doing these trials, and there's lots of hopeful kind of, you know, obviously, we all read a lot around it. And there's lots of hopeful stuff out there. 

Jackie Baxter  
yeah, I mean, I think something that I've noticed from speaking to other people, and from my own experiences as well, is that the body has a remarkable kind of capacity to heal itself. And you know, that actually, if you put it into the right environment by, you know, taking away things that are stressful and replacing them with good things, that actually, you know, it will do a lot of things itself. But that doesn't mean that I guess medication doesn't have its place. You know, it may be it could, you know, help speed things up. 

If your gut is really wonky, for example, or, you know, people talk about things like beta blockers, for example, for palpitations and things, you know, and I didn't have access to all of that, I did it all naturally. But it took me a really long time. Whereas actually, if I'd maybe been able to access some of those medications earlier on, it might have sped up the process a little bit. I don't know, because I will not be able to live a parallel version of myself to find out, but I think it all has its place.

Charlotte Hammond  
Definitely, I think the main thing is, is just, you know, for people who have it more severely, I think it's so important to know that it is worth doing all the little things that make your life a little bit better, because they are working on the big things, you know, and I think for some people, you know, without that bigger help, it is very challenging to kind of overcome, and particularly if your circumstances, you know, don't have enough money to be living the lifestyle that is the best for your body. I think it's really good to know that those things are out there and will happen. And I do really believe that, you know, they will sort it out. It's just gonna take them a while I think.

Jackie Baxter  
Yes. And I guess as you say, in the meantime, there are lots of things that we can be doing, that definitely will help, even if they're maybe slower going. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, definitely. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, something that I'm really curious about, because this is something that I've been through quite recently. How did you know that you were recovered? At what point, you know, it's like things have been improving, things I now quite a lot better. Am I better? Am I not? Am I different? I mean, you said earlier you're a different person to what you were before. So how, how do you compare you now to you then? And yeah, what does recovery look like for you?

Charlotte Hammond  
There's a lot of big questions in there. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yes, sorry. 

Charlotte Hammond  
No, no that's great. In terms of when I knew I was recovered, I think that's been like, an interesting process. Because there was an early point when I was like, I'm better. I woke up one day, I didn't have the vise-like grip anymore, didn't have the fatigue. And I was like, oh my god, I'm better. And it was so euphoric. And it was just as euphoric if not more so, than you think it's going to be, you know, when you're dreaming about it. And, you know, ever since then I do consider myself as not having long COVID. 

But that doesn't necessarily mean I am 100% where I was before, because obviously my body's taken a battering, you know, I was really ill for a long time. So then there's been also the kind of the recovery period of just building my body strength back up. And also like, my tolerance to things, you know, I can't be around lots of people for as long as I used to be able to, you know, like sensory stuff bothers me more than it used to be. Because I also I've always had slight sensory issues and things, but it's worse since I've had long COVID, which, I think is predictable, but I didn't predict it. 

So when I started having these frustrations, I was like, I should be better now. You know, you kind of go through this, I've earned, you know, I should be completely well. And I think it's continued to be a learning curve, just in terms of giving myself a break and, you know, kind of giving my body a break, and still giving it what it needs. So, yeah, I would class myself as not having Long COVID anymore, but I think I am still not as fit as I was, for example, before. 

In terms of how I'm different, though, if we ignore the physical part, I am just so much more mentally resilient. Now, I am a totally different person. I know myself better. I mean, it was a horrible experience. But I think I've got so much out of it. And I know that almost anybody who's had a chronic illness will say the same thing. It really changes your mindset.

Jackie Baxter  
Yes, yeah, I would agree with that. I just, it's almost like you see things through a different lens. So I have a new appreciation of all sorts of things, you know, the little things that I would really struggle with before, or even not be able to do. Now I'm just like, Oh, look at tree. That doesn't mean that I'm not dreaming big. But you know, I definitely, yeah, I have I have a kind of, yeah, a new appreciation for things that I can do. 

And I think maybe a new appreciation for other people, and their suffering, because I've been there. So you know, I, you know, many disabilities are not visible. But you know, when you see somebody in the street, for example, like physically obviously disabled, and you will, you'll look at them through new eyes, I think, certainly for me and think, oh, gosh, right. You know, I obviously can't know what they're thinking and what they're feeling, because nobody can ever do that for somebody else. But I definitely feel a new kind of, I don't know, maybe empathy for people who, you know, have some difficulty in their life. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, I think for me as well like, a greater comfortability with kind of emotions in general, because I think I've always been before, like quite a - I considered myself quite tough person, somebody who didn't really show emotions. And that was something I liked about myself. And now actually, I realize that that's not the weight of life. And I think now I'm so much more comfortable if somebody does need support from me, or somebody is upset in front of me, I kind of feel more naturally, like I know what to do. And I feel more connected to other people, which is just such a lovely gift. So there are a lot of things with this illness that I am really, really grateful for, definitely.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting one, isn't it? I have told this story before, but I remember someone who I interviewed very early on. And I was really struggling at the time, I hadn't really found anything that helped yet. I was, you know, getting on for 18 months in and everything was awful. And she was a recovery story. And she said, Yeah, you know, I'm really grateful for my experience. And I'm glad I went through it because I've come out better the other side - I paraphrase. 

And I remember thinking, how can you like, yeah, you know, like, I just I cannot comprehend. And it's amazing how your perspective can change when you have recovered, and you're looking back on it. And I think, well, that was three years of my life. And it was horrible. And it was awful. And I wouldn't want to go through it again. And I'm not sure I would say I was grateful for it. Because you know, it was horrible. 

But at the same time, as you say, there are some good things to have come out of it. I have learned some new things. I've been kind of forced into this position where I've had to think differently about things, and I would say there definitely are some silver linings, even if I'm sort of a little bit...ughhh I don't know. Yeah...ughhh about it - I don't even know what the word is for that!

Charlotte Hammond  
I feel like it's fine for me to say there are silver linings, but if somebody else tried to say to you, You have silver linings from your illness, I would be like, Absolutely not, stop talking to me. So I think it's a very personal thing, isn't it? And it's something that as ill people we should be allowed to take ownership of ourselves, and we decide what we got out of it. And what we didn't get out of it as well.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, actually, you know, and it comes back to us knowing our own bodies, us knowing you know, when a doctor says Oh, You can't possibly be feeling that and I go, well, actually, how can you, don't tell me what I am and I'm not feeling. You know, it's like you know your body best, you're able to reflect on your experiences and have your own thoughts about them. And it's not for somebody else to tell you how you should or shouldn't be feeling about that, whether you're in the middle of your illness, or whether you're coming out the other side, or, or whatever. 

And I wonder if it might be something that will change over time, you know, I, at the moment, I'm kind of just out of it. And I'm still trying to adjust to what life is like now. And it's exciting, but it's also, there's a lot of stuff that I wasn't expecting. So yes, of course, I'm able to look back and say, Right, well, I learned a lot. You know, maybe in two years time, when I'm off living the dream, I might be able to look back and say actually, okay, maybe now with a bit more time, you know, I'm able to think slightly different about it, I don't know, it'll be very interesting. 

But yeah, I think absolutely. You know, it's your decision, and you know, your thoughts and nobody should be able to tell you how you should or shouldn't be, you know, reacting to things. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, I think that's something I was so bad at before I was ill, like trusting myself and trusting that I knew the right thing to do, I think I did a lot of doing what people do, what you're supposed to do, in situations, rather than actually what was right for me. And that's kind of, it's made life much easier for me now, because I am so much more sure about what I want to do. And I think you know, everything I'm doing, I feel good about. I feel much better about my choices now. So I think you are forced to learn that when you're ill, like what is it that I want or need in this situation? Because if you don't, nobody else is going to figure it out. Because how can they? So yeah,

Jackie Baxter  
yeah, definitely. And there was something really interesting that you said a moment ago about, I think you were saying how you were more sensitive to certain things. And I'm curious about this, because, you know, having been through this experience, and you know, have now learned to listen to my body in a way that I very much wasn't before. I'm much more aware of it, talking to me all the time. That sounds really strange, doesn't it? But you know, I listen to myself, to my body much more. So I notice much more than I did before. So now I'm like, Oh, my breathing is not as good as yesterday, or, Oh, I feel a pain here or, you know, all these things. And I instantly will go, oh, is it long COVID back, oh, is this bad. And, and I'm wondering how much of this is just me noticing more, because I'm listening more.

Charlotte Hammond  
It's so interesting. And then also with that getting that balance, because that was something I found hard when I was first coming out of recovery, was not, you know, conversely, thinking too much about what my body was doing and going for things, you know, allowing, trusting myself that I could go. Because it's a different mindset, once you start recovering, you can push yourself a bit more, you know, and it's not all about rest, it is also about fun, and also about what you want to do with your time. And that's lovely, it's so lovely to get that back. But I think it does take a little bit of adjusting, you don't want to live in fear. And I think that's really important. When you've recovered, you deserve to do the things you want to do, and to not be frightened all the time. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yes. And yeah, that's something I'm currently going through at the moment. And, like you say, it's an adjustment, isn't it, you know, when you've been ill for so long, and you know, every kind of bit of energy, and every single task has to be very much accounted for and budgeted. And, you know, if you do just a tiny, tiny bit too much, then, you know, that's it for however long. 

And then moving past that into this kind of, I don't have to think about pacing, but also being aware that actually everybody should be mindful of what they're doing. So it's like you say, it's a bit of a balance of trying to work out what quote unquote normal is and what it looks like. Because it's almost like we've forgotten, or we've had to readjust so much into the illness that actually coming out of it. Well, it's a thing, isn't it?

Charlotte Hammond  
Well, especially for you getting ill right at the start of the pandemic, the world is totally different now from when you were last healthy so, you know, and everybody's more stressed. Everybody's got more health stuff, you know, that I'm just really noticing that, and like we said, you know, there are some positives with that, maybe people are more mindful, kinder, but I think I think the world is different, and people's values are different now as well. So it's not gonna look the same.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Yeah. So I would love to hear what advice might you give to yourself, kind of either at the start or you know, before the start of your kind of long COVID journey?

Charlotte Hammond  
It would be very different advice depending on if I already had COVID or not, I think. If it was before I would be like, quit your job first of all, like number one on the list, and just take some time. But I know I wouldn't listen, so this is the problem. I think I had to go through it. I feel like it was for me, it was inevitable. I don't think that's the same for everyone. But I just was in a rut, on a path. 

In terms of after I got ill especially straight after I got ill, I would have, I would love to be able to go back to myself and just reassure myself that I'm not on my own. I'm not as isolated as I feel. People do love me, and I do love people, it just feels like that right now. And that everything is temporary, I think, is the key, because it feels like it's forever. And your days feel so much longer when you're ill. But actually, now that I'm out of it, I can't even remember, really, what it was like to feel like that. So I think, you know, you're not going to be in there forever, is the main thing I would say. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, definitely, I think it's very difficult to imagine not being ill, when you are so ill. And I think that that can be such an awful place to be. I mean, you very briefly touched on mental health earlier. And I think for me, this has been a big thing, you know, when you are feeling that bad, you know, mentally you are then also feeling that bad. And then the two kind of end up you know, kind of negatively impacting each other, to this point where it's very difficult to even have any hope that you will get better at all, or even to see any improvement. And that can be a pretty dark place to be, I think

Charlotte Hammond  
That's something actually I didn't mentioned before about things that help, but that I would really strongly recommend, is getting therapy, if you can. I will give you the link actually, for this. I went through a charity. So my session were only 5 pounds a session. So obviously, you know, affordable, and I was able to have, you know, lots of lots of sessions - I had about, I think about 20 in the end. And I was in that position, they based it on kind of household income, and at the time, I wasn't really earning. So it does depend on your financial situation. But there are other charities as well. 

And I just think having someone to talk it through with is just such an important part of recovery, and having somebody who's not got a vested interest. Because the problem was my parents as much as I love them, they were upset for me every time I got ill-er, you know, of course they were they wanted me to be well. And I think that puts a certain amount of pressure on you. Whereas if you're talking to a therapist, you can properly vent and discuss things. So yeah, I'll definitely give you that link because I think that's so important for people.

Jackie Baxter  
I would totally agree with that. I remember saying, Oh, you know, I don't need to talk to somebody, because that's what my partner is for, you know, I can dump all of this on him. And, you know, that's great. I'm lucky to have him. And, and I remember someone saying to me, partly, that's not very fair to him. And also, he's not useful for that, you know, he's there in a support role. And he's great. But you know, you need to talk to somebody who actually is kind of trained in that area, in order to get anything out of it. And again, that was something that was very, very helpful for me. And I was really glad that I made that decision. And I wish I'd made it about 18 months earlier.

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah, maybe that's what I would say to my pre-COVID self actually - go and get some therapy.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, maybe. But I suppose it comes back to you know, everybody's got stuff. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Definitely. 

Jackie Baxter  
I mean, I'm still seeing mine and at the moment, I still feel like I have the stuff, stuff to bring to her all the time. 

Charlotte Hammond  
Yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really great speaking to you and hearing your story. And I really hope it's been helpful for others who are struggling as well, because as we say, it can be a very lonely, dark place to be in. So thank you so much.

Charlotte Hammond  
Thank you so much for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai