106 - Dr Taylor Krick - the Autoimmune Doc

Episode 106 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Dr Taylor Krick from the Washington Wellness Centre and also the host of the "Autoimmune Doc Podcast"

We chat through his experiences with patients with autoimmunity both before Covid and since Long Covid came along, as well as some of the patterns he is seeing.

www.autoimmunedocpodcast.com 
@autoimmunedoc on instagram, I think Facebook is the same 

For more information about Long Covid Breathing, their courses, workshops & other shorter sessions, please check out this link

(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID podcast, I am delighted to welcome my guest as evening, Dr. Taylor Krick, who has been working with long COVID patients through his work at the Washington Wellness Center. And is also the host of the Autoimmune Doc Podcast, which I hope I've got right. So we're gonna dive into all sorts of things this evening. So a very warm welcome to the podcast.

Taylor Krick  
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jackie Baxter  
I'm so excited to chat about all of this. So maybe to start with, would you just introduce yourself a little bit more, and maybe just say a little bit more about what it is that you do?

Taylor Krick  
Sure. Yeah, my name is Taylor Krick. I'm a chiropractor by doctorate, by training. And for years, I had a chiropractic clinic, in Salt Lake City, Utah, and you know, did hands on adjusting. But also started doing more wellness, you know, started doing nutrition, supplements, started getting into mechanisms, studying and getting into autoimmunity. And really, when people asked me for the quick version of the story, I say, with chiropractic, you know, seven out of 10 people get great results, but sometimes people don't. 

And so I was always intrigued by who wasn't getting results. And what were they missing. Or intrigued by the people who would come in on 15 different medications and say, I've got this unknown autoimmune disease, and I've had all these conditions, and nobody seems to really be listening to me or helping me and I keep getting worse. So I started diving into those things. And then that led me into just practicing now exclusively what's called Functional Medicine, which is basically I would describe it as kind of like lab-based wellness, but also including not just labs and supplements and diet, but also a lot of lifestyle strategies, which I know Jackie has been, you know, important part of your healing with even some of the breathing exercises, vagus nerve dysfunction. 

And that's what I do now is I see chronic and complex conditions. So mold toxicity, Lyme disease, people with chronic fatigue, people with MS, or different autoimmune diseases or neurological just presentations, who are receiving, you know, the appropriate medical treatment or a care diagnosis, but are looking for support outside of that, through natural means and things like that.

Jackie Baxter  
Perfect. Yeah, I mean, I think, again, what I seem to have noticed, through my own experiences, and through speaking to a lot of other people, is that medicine is very kind of like specialized. You know, everyone's a specialist in something, which, you know, don't get me wrong, that's useful in a lot of cases. But with something like long COVID, and, you know, some of the other conditions, and probably all the other conditions that you've just mentioned, and a whole load more. It's not just necessarily one thing, or it's not just one system, you know, it's not just your lungs, it's not just your gut, you know, it's the whole shebang. 

So like, you know, you could go and see 20 different specialists and still not have seen all of them. So having you know, somebody who is able to maybe look at the bigger picture a bit more, able to go well rather than you've got problems with your x y Z. You know, we have a whole kind of system problem. Let's try and work out kind of what's going on. And that sounds like you're able to kind of target that rather than the very specific sort of 20 million specialties, which is probably more useful in this situation.

Taylor Krick  
Exactly. And I'd say going through and prioritizing, you know, if there's 12 different systems that might be high on the suspect list for long COVID, going through and prioritizing for you, what's your order, which ones stand out, you know. Even in the -my podcast is called the auto immune doc podcast. And in the natural wellness world, they say you should have a specialty, you should have a niche and the person that you're speaking to. And I chose auto immunity, because autoimmunity is kind of that same exact thing that you just mentioned, gut health, toxins, hormones, stress, trauma, all those things play a role in autoimmunity. 

So it's a niche, and it speaks to a specific population. But it doesn't just specialize in one area. Kind of the point of autoimmune is that all of these things, kind of, you know, fill your proverbial buckets, and all those things contribute to, you know, disease progression. So and I think that that's the exact same thing with long COVID. I mean, COVID being the variable or the different, you know, wild virus illness or vaccine or different mechanisms of triggering, but there's all these different variables that kind of play together to form, you know, the person that's sitting across the table from me, and that's the most important thing is looking at that individual person and say, Well, what do you need. 

And I think even in the long COVID world, Jackie, even in your podcast, there's 100 possibilities out there nowadays, there's 100 different success stories, and really just helping guide people as to what might be their mechanisms or their priorities or their best targets to aim at. So they can put not all of their eggs in that basket, but put more of their eggs in one particular basket; whether it be spending a few $100 on a lab test or it be signing up for, you know, seeing a counselor or different Neurofeedback or different things brain wise. What might be their top priorities based on their mechanisms?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I love how you say you sort of specialized in autoimmunity. Because it's almost like it's the like, least specialized specialism, isn't it? Because it's like, yeah, of course, it is a specialism of itself. But because it encompasses so many different things. It's kind of a bit of a paradox almost, isn't it?

Taylor Krick  
Exactly, exactly. So I feel like I've kind of, you know, uncovered the anti niche, niche, that still speaks to, again, a very specific population. And I think that you know, even what we're finding today is in most conditions, you know, non-long-COVID related, meaning most anxiety, depression, Alzheimer's and other things, we're discovering that there is an autoimmune component. Not that it's an autoimmune disease. But there's an autoimmune component of the immune system kind of attacking self. 

And I think that even in the long COVID world, I think that that's an important, you know, even thing to just mention is that in the research world, there's over 100 different antibodies that COVID antibodies are shown to cross react with and different things that aren't commercially available for you and I to test. So they're showing this in the research world, whether it be in PoTS or it be in some of the microvascular issues, or whether it be in in chronic fatigue and different things. 

And all these different autoimmune processes that are not that readily available for us to diagnose or treat. But there's an autoimmune mechanism so often involved, whether it be against neurological receptors or it be against thyroid or be against, you know, gut barrier to junction proteins, or whatever the case is. There's just a myriad of cross reactivities with COVID antibodies.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, definitely. I mean, the autoimmunity thing absolutely fascinates me. And I think what's probably a possibly common thing with a lot of people with long COVID is that we're like, Oh, my goodness, long COVID is this new illness! And yes, of course, it is. Because it's come from a new virus. But it's also it's very, very similar - I think the jury's out on quite how similar - to many, many illnesses that have been around for much, much longer; things like MECFS, and many, many other things as well. 

So you've been in this world for longer than long COVID has kind of been around, you know, autoimmunity is not new to long COVID. So I think this is quite interesting. And you know, hopefully long COVID and all the sort of associated stuff with that really can draw on the fact that there are people like yourself that are like, Oh, well, I know about autoimmunity already. But maybe could we dive just a little bit more into autoimmunity and what it is?

Taylor Krick  
Just to touch on though even what you were just saying, then I'll go into auto immunity. But I was doing this world before long COVID. So really, you know, nothing really changed for me with with long COVID. Nothing really changed in my you know, obviously, I learned and followed the research and different things like that. And, you know, started seeing people. I could tell you about my first long COVID patient - that term wasn't available yet. But so nothing really changed because the approach is still again, look at the person across the table from me, and figure out what are their priority mechanisms. 

But autoimmunity by definition, is your immune system, attacking self. So your immune system is designed to attack non-self, like foreign invaders like viruses, or other you know, things that are bacteria, viruses, pathogens, that our body wants to get rid of. When the body begins to mistakenly attack self-tissue, then it leads to basically inflammation and damage in those areas. 

So if it's attacking the myelin sheath around your nerves, then that's diagnosed as MS when it progresses far enough, but the attack in the process is the auto immune attack. And I think it's important to note that especially just using MS is a great example. There's three stages of auto immunity, and one is called Silent autoimmunity, that's where you have auto antibodies. So in the case of MS, it might be myelin basic protein antibodies, which says that your immune system is attacking myelin. 

Two is second stage is when you're not yet diagnosed. Meaning in stage one, it's silent. You might have no symptoms. You might have no lesions on an MRI, you might just be walking down the street and stumble into a lab and they say oh, you have demyelinating antibodies. Now that doesn't happen that often because usually we're looking for, because there's symptoms, that stage two - stage two is when you have symptoms of autoimmunity. So, in MS it might be tunnel vision or vertigo or tripping over your feet or some neurologic physical sensations. And then you go get an MRI and they say you're completely clean, great news, you don't have MS. The third stage is when you begin to have lesions on the MRI, they say now this is MS. So this is the process of your immune system attacking yourself. 

And there's well over 100 diagnosed autoimmune diseases. But there's also a myriad of just different diseases in general that we now know have an autoimmune component. So some of the most famous actual autoimmune diseases - Hashimotos thyroiditis, number one, lupus, MS. Rheumatoid arthritis. So if somebody has one of those pre existing conditions, the concern is that they're more likely to develop autoimmunity in other places. 

Then there are a myriad of other things like even PoTS. PoTS very common in the long COVID world, in the dysautonomia world, that is now recognized to have an autoimmune component, but it's sometimes maybe considered an autoimmune disease, sometimes not considered an auoimmune disease. It's more considered a a dysautonomia, neurologic and blood flow related condition, more so than grouped into - you don't see a rheumatologist generally, for PoTS. 

So there's all these different again, sub specialties that have autoimmune components, but might not necessarily be considered an autoimmune disease. But there's still this degree of self attacking self.

Jackie Baxter  
And it's a really interesting point, you were just making the distinction between autoimmune conditions and conditions that have a component of autoimmunity. Because I think, again, this is something that I have come to realize is that everything is connected. So if you've got a problem in one area of your body or your life is, you know, it is going to have a knock on effect to something else, and something else and something else. 

Taylor Krick  
Exactly. 

Jackie Baxter  
So that's why you end up with people with things like autoimmunity, and then inflammation, which is going to cause something else, which is going to cause something else, which I suppose is why you then have people finding things to help, which will then have like, reverse knock on - so like a positive knock on, I suppose if that's even a thing?

Taylor Krick  
Exactly. Yeah, so the vicious cycle goes the other direction too. And, and going back to my niche, or my anti niche, that's kind of the point is if I see two people and one has diagnosed Hashimotos and anxiety and bloating and fatigue, and the other person has undiagnosed anything, and has anxiety and bloating and fatigue, I'm looking for the same mechanisms and treating them the same way. Sometimes the autoimmune diagnosis is just what leads people to find my podcast or find my services or start following me. So again, it's this anti niche this that it speaks to a certain population. But from a treatment standpoint, it's the same of looking through some of these mechanisms. 

And I think the same with long COVID is just - what are some of the standout mechanisms that might be involved based on somebody's symptoms, you know. Some people with long COVID that I see don't have post exertional malaise, and some people with long COVID I see don't have some of the major fatiguing symptoms, and some people do. And so there's all these different subgroups. But what is your mechanism versus somebody else's mechanism? 

Sometimes, again, the history can lead me to what mechanism might have been triggered, like if somebody grew up with allergies, or if a female had you know, pre-existing menstrual symptoms or things like that, then we might suspect that there's hormonal symptoms, or there's histamine related symptoms. And it might just lead us to some of these things that are harder to see right from the surface. And it requires sometimes a detailed history. But yeah, everything is interconnected. And just prioritizing those things again, and just yeah, looking at all, all the puzzle pieces. 

What I always say, when I see somebody - on my first appointment is 90 minutes long. And I was telling myself, if I'm doing a puzzle with my kids, the first thing I do is dump all the pieces out on the floor, and flip them over, face up. And so that's always our goal. And I would say that even as long COVID, you know, ages, because it's just been around for a while now. Now people will come to me with a stack of puzzle pieces. They'll come to me with a stack of things that have maybe worked, and oftentimes a bigger stack of things that haven't worked and a bag of supplements and different things. 

And all those things just give us little clues. And each clue is - I always say it's like a little piece of evidence or a little ping pong ball, we put it in a bucket. And at the end, we kind of weigh our buckets to see which one's the heaviest. And that's how we figure out which mechanism we want to test for, which mechanism we want to support or address. Then we circle back and say well what's working or not, what's now working? That double looped learning to see - are we making progress or are we not?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it? I think you've very slightly preempted my next question, which is great because it makes it seem like it flows really nicely. Which is you know, I mean, you know long COVID is a bit of a pick and mix of symptoms, isn't it? And you know, there are a lot of very common ones. And there are more sort of uncommon ones. And I think people are starting to understand that maybe there are sort of certain groupings of symptoms and all of this. But at the end of the day, yeah, every person is going to be subtly different. So I would love to talk through what some of the kinds of mechanisms, or different kinds of things that you're seeing in people, and maybe are there some common ones? Are there some really off the wall ones?

Taylor Krick  
Yeah, absolutely. So mechanisms is the word that I, you know, use a lot, because even in the supplement world, you know, the supplements are really my specialty - supplements, lab testing, lab interpretation, and lifestyle strategies. But, you know, there's good literature on topics, different things, but they work on very, very specific mechanisms. So if you're taking the wrong thing for the wrong mechanism, then you're not going to have the expected result. So if we can filter out these mechanisms, I think that's our goal. 

So let me talk through a couple of those. And just some things that I even took down in some notes. First off, I think that one thing that, you know, most people have is just some basic labs that can show mechanisms. And I don't mean specialty labs or some of these deeper, long COVID specific mechanisms. I mean, like CBC metabolic panels, annual physicals, you know, life insurance requests, you know, whatever it is, things like that. 

But if someone has elevated liver enzymes, and looking back through the past, then their liver's a mechanism, if somebody has decreased kidney function and their kidney is a mechanism,. And then you have to go upstream and look for why, you know, with regards to toxins, or alcohol, or whatever the case is. If someone has low thyroid, if someone has anemia, or iron abnormalities, someone has elevated inflammatory markers, like C reactive protein, then those are their mechanisms. And we call those low hanging fruit. 

So often, those things aren't going to fix somebody's long COVID issue, but they're going to have a hard time doing it without it. If you're anemic, then you're not going to be getting oxygenation to your brain and to the deep, deep limbic areas and things like that. So you've got to fix some of those low hanging fruit. Low omegas is something that I check for a lot of people, low vitamin D, poor blood sugar control, diabetes, etc. 

But then some of the mechanisms long COVID specific. Autoimmunity, again, as we mentioned, is a really tough one to test for, but we can test for that. And demyelinating antibodies and things like that. But that's more of a history thing. I think that is probably the biggest one - let me say, let me say the biggest two, and then it might expand to three, but they all interconnect. So that's why I was kind of growing in my head, but neurological, and mitochondria. 

And the mitochondria is the fatigue, the post exertional malaise, the MECFS. And the neurological, those two things can't be separated because we have an average of 100 billion neurons and neurons can have up to 8000 mitochondria per neuron. And some evidence is suggesting that it might be even way more than that. So there's over a quadrillion mitochondria in your brain. So if the mitochondria in your brain are not functioning properly, then you're gonna have an inability to respond to trivial stimuli, like flashing lights, or motion or noises, you're gonna get easily fatigued. If it's to areas like let's say, the amygdala, which is the fear sensing area, then you're gonna get more anxiety. If it's to areas that are more like the prefrontal cortex, and you might get more brain fog. So all these things are interchangeable and are connected. 

But let's start with neurological. I think that one of the things even Jackie that you had tremendous success with. And you know, again, sometimes as I talk it's hard to separate neurological and psychological, I'm talking about the physical functioning of the mechanism, not just your thought processes. But vagus nerve, vagus nerve dysfunction, you know, that's even something that got me into the world of social media and podcasts and YouTube and things. I made a vagus nerve video that's now been viewed, I don't know, maybe 100,000 times or something, but on how to use a Tens device -  mine is sitting right here, just by coincidence because I was using it. How to use a Tens device to stimulate the vagus nerve. 

But a lot of the things like deep breathing, or cold thermogenesis, or yoga or other things that you had success with all retrain the vagus nerve and the vagus nerve is part of the autonomic nervous system. And we get in this sympathetic dominance, which is fight or flight, and the vagus nerve is more rest and digest. And then that's intimately connected with trauma and some of the Steven Porges polyvagal theory and different things like that. So, again, all these things interconnect. 

Another thing that I see with neuro is what's called Wired and tired, I would say, which is like people are easily wired. They're easily triggered by trivial stimuli. They're easily, you know, kept awake, they have sleep issues, they've got, you know, fear responses, they're easily startled. That kind of wired but they're also tired, they have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning. And sometimes that's not a mitochondrial thing. Sometimes it's adrenals. I'll tell you just too while I'm kind of rambling on this. 

One of the most interesting things, probably maybe the most interesting thing that I've seen with long haulers, is on a test called an organic acid test. And it's this process called inhibition of dopamine conversion to adrenaline and noradrenaline by Clostridium metabolites, which come from gut basically. It's basically saying that the gut impairs neurotransmitters, and it leads to this wired and tired presentation. Yeah, so I see your face. We can dive into that in a second. But it's neuro the symptoms that people are having, but their gut might be a root cause of it. So some other things you know, vestibular dysfunction, dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, cerebellar issues, anxiety, fatigue, but neuro. 

The other mechanism is mitochondria that I mentioned, that's maybe inability to tolerate exercise, inability to tolerate neurologic stimuli, maybe new onset blood sugar drops, a lot of people would get with long COVID. And these are just signs that their Mito are impaired. And before I keep rambling, the lab for that too, is a urinary organic acid test. So are you intrigued by what I just said about that neurotransmitter imbalance? I see your face....

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, it kind of made me go Oooooh, and I can sense a rabbit hole that I'm about to go down....

Taylor Krick  
Yeah, yeah. So let me tell you, and I'll read it to you. And just it says "inhibition of dopamine conversion to norepinephrine by Clostridium metabolites, appears to be a or the major cause of schizophrenia, autism." So this is something that the, particularly the Great Plains lab, now mosaic labs, their urinary organic acid test. The founder of their lab is really big on this mechanism for autism. He's published papers on it for years. And so it's been around forever. 

But in the in the long COVID population of people that I've tested, which is certainly in the hundreds. This is one of the standout things, I've even tested one - I only did this with one person, but I tested her before. And all these neurotransmitter markers were completely normal. And then she got COVID. And she wanted to see what COVID did and three weeks later, so all these neurotransmitters were just really, really jacked up. And in a lot of the most severely debilitated long haulers that I've seen, they have these neurotransmitter imbalances. 

So there's they are urine markers of neurotransmitter metabolites for dopamine and adrenaline. And there's a conversion process that occurs between the two. So we'll see one go really high. And the other go really low because that conversion process isn't happening. So we'll see this abnormality. And gut is the most likely source of that. So we still just have to kind of like look upstream and fix the gut. Or mold is another source of that. But it leads to that wired and tired. 

And I was mentioning earlier, my first long hauler. So I know I'm jumping around a little bit. But that's what she had. This is basically what she had is - so she completely lost all motivation. She was 18 years old, like a straight A student, basketball player, high school senior, you know, hanging out with friends and all the things and just kind of went blah. And so I think they were referred to me by their counselor, and they're talking through things and et cetera. But they just, it was kind of weird for the mom, and it's kind of weird for the daughter. 

And when we did these labs, these neurotransmitters were really really far off. And this person had a cancer history when she was like two. So I referred her out and said, We gotta get this checked out because this is abnormal and like it could be associated with same type of cancer that she had and that got all ruled out. And then long story short, she started responding when we put her on to some supplements, including, like adrenal support. 

And so it's this wired and tired that doesn't always show up in the cortisol test. And sometimes even with adrenal sometimes people have high cortisol, sometimes people have low cortisol. But they still have this same kind of adrenal presentation or hard time getting out of bed in the morning, or afternoon slump, or kind of wired when it's time to go to bed. And so it's this neurotransmitter presentation. And we can see that also improve in long haulers as well and it generally accompanies their symptom progress when that does improve, you know. 

That was before the word Long COVID existed. And this was also back in the day when it was like, I think I might have had COVID in December, I might not have, I didn't test. And now it's March or April or May. And now I'm like, really fatigued and low motivation. And so it was really not a clear case. Whereas now some of the people coming in is like, Hey, I got COVID and my life has never been the same since. It was really kind of required a little detective work. So anyway, that's just an interesting thing. 

And I'll also say too - the urinary organic acid test has been to me the most valuable test for long haulers, because it shows some of the major mechanisms that I see. It shows some signs of gut dysbiosis, which is another mechanism. And I think that something worth mentioning with gut, is that a lot of Longhorns didn't have any gut symptoms. They don't have constipation, diarrhea, reflux, things like that. But their microbiome has been shifted. And when we go and look, you know, nobody's guts really perfect when you go and look, and when we support that, it often helps. 

But it shows some gut things. It shows mitochondrial markers, which is again a common mechanism for a long horse. It shows this neurotransmitter imbalances. It shows methylation defects, all this - there's 76 different markers on a urine test. And you know, I would say that even in the literature, urinary organic acids are a little bit controversial, literature wise, they're not the gold standard for anything. But it's been the most clinically helpful test for me with long haulers.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, that is really interesting, isn't it? I mean, I think what a lot of people have struggled with, is this kind of, I don't feel well. But all the tests that I have gone for are telling me that I am, quote unquote, fine. 

Taylor Krick  
Yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  
And, you know, I think, partly it's, you know, I suppose it should be reassuring in some ways that the things that you have tested are okay. But at the same time, if you know that you're not well, then someone's saying, Oh, but you're fine is kind of dismissive, and not really very helpful, is it?

Taylor Krick  
I would say with the ote test, that's what it's perfect for, because a lot of people, you know, they come to me, and let's say pre COVID, somebody has fatigue or anxiety, the most common symptoms I see are probably fatigue, anxiety, and bloating. But let's say somebody's gone to their general practitioner, and they've got their thyroid checked, they've got their iron checked. They say Hey good news, everything's all perfect. And like, Well, why do I not feel well? So this test is a great kind of next layer deeper. 

Now, I often also feel like for testing, if somebody is gonna go down that rabbit hole, you don't want to test everything under the sun. But it's also important to cast a broad net, because what if this test comes back completely clean, that is possible. And so there are other tests. But again, my thought is the long history. For me, that guides us to what tests to do. I'm a very big - even though lab testing and supplements can be, you know, expensive. I'm a really big bang for the buck person. Like, let's look for the most suspected mechanism, rather than let's look for every mechanism.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, because like, I mean, I think this is something that I've been kind of coming across, as I've come out of Long COVID. And I'm trying to adjust sort of to what ever quote unquote normal is now. And it's this kind of, like, nobody's perfect kind of thing that I'm struggling with as a perfectionist. And, you know, I wasn't perfect before. I certainly wasn't perfect while I was unwell. And, you know, I'm trying to be as healthy as I can now, because, you know, health is much more important to me now than it was before. 

But I'm never going to be perfect because nobody is. So you know, it's kind of about what can you do? And where are the biggest impacts going to be? 

Taylor Krick  
Exactly. 

Jackie Baxter  
So you know, I'm not going to stop eating donuts, because I absolutely freakin love donuts. Can I cut my donut consumption down to where I'm getting happiness from it, but it's not having a huge impact on my gut? And, you know, while I also do lots of other things that are healthy.

Taylor Krick  
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Because all the things balance out to like, just, you know, can you stack the scale in your favor? And, you know, we could all walk out today and get hit by a bus and there's no promises or guarantees in life is the point. So you need to get some enjoyment, but also, how can you minimize, and especially what's your mechanism? You know, if your mechanism was blood sugar, then I might say let's cut the doughnuts, you know. But for you even just, you know, I can see you and your, you know, normal weight and other things. I'm sure your blood sugar measurements are fine et cetera. So it's like, let's aim at something else. 

Because so many people demonize one thing. And they, you know, they bang that drum and they're missing six other things and they lose the forest for the trees. So I think that's super important. Just the balance of it all and even for you, and the things that you've done even lifestyle wise and stuff, a lot of it's just your own personal development and recognition of that content. 

I think, going back to something we said off air, it's really annoying to be married to somebody like me that like, every symptom means something. But I'm really good at balancing that too. Because every symptom that you tell me, I mean, that's what I do for a living is listen to people's symptoms and interpret them. So if you cough five times, that means something to me. But if it just happens one day, then who cares? But if it's persistent and consistent, and it's bothering you, and you want to solve it, then everything means something, everything has a purpose. But how do you weigh that in the grand scheme of like living life?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And it comes back to you, doesn't it, you know, listening to your body, because it is important to do so. But without the kind of hyper vigilance that can actually be unhelpful. So where is that balance?

Taylor Krick  
Which so many long haulers, it can so easily get. Now, what I think about that, just in general is yeah, there's limbic system, you know, dysfunction and different talk yourself out of it things which are very, very, very, very, very, very valuable. But also what is the mechanism. And even in my office, you know, next door, there's a counselor, and I do more body, and she does more brain, but then we also do Neurofeedback and Heart Math and some heart rate variability and things like that. 

But I think of okay, well, what is the mechanism of that, if somebody is getting this fear based response, and they're easily triggered by some of these fears, then it's likely their amygdala and the fear-based center. And mast cells and the histamine line the amygdala. So what can we take to calm inflammation, the amygdala? What can we take to calm down to histamine response, while we're also doing some neurologic retraining and some gratitude or some journaling, or some deep breathing or vagus nerve stimulation, or counseling, or whatever the case is? It's all those things. 

And also too, not doing all the things, but figuring out what works for you. Because even with what I just named, that's a full time job. So what's going to work for you, that works with your schedule, you know, not everybody's going to be able to meditate 30-60 minutes a day. But some people, if they're debilitated in their home, and they've got the time and resources and energy, then absolutely, that could be part of their healing process. But again, just figuring out what fits into your life, I think is really important. But the mechanisms are overlapping.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it comes back to you know, what we've been saying kind of all along, isn't it? How connected things are, how different they are for different people. Even two people with, you know, completely different symptoms could actually have a very similar mechanism, or vice versa. And then, you know, working out, you know, what things are going to work for people. I mean, I like getting into cold water. But that is not going to be attractive to some other people. But you know, it's absolutely magical for me.

Taylor Krick  
Exactly. I have a cold plunge tub in my garage, and it hasn't been used for a while. *laughs* And I have a sauna, that gets us all the time. Even sometimes that's just a reminder to you know, get back in the cold plunge. And but again, it's what works for you. And what do you need at that time, also, I think is sometimes important, but because it's not all about pleasure and enjoyment. It's like, what's hitting the mechanism that needs to be hit. But then even within that subcategory, there's multiple options. 

You know, another thing even in the detox world, you know, mold detox, lyme, etc. Sauna, coffee enema is a great example of like, not everybody's willing to do that. Not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody is interested in that, not everybody has the time for that. Some people are very, very keen to it. But not everybody is. So there's different strokes for different folks, and finding out what works for you. But staying focused on those those underlying mechanisms. 

Honestly, even as I was making my own personal notes for today's show, even going back to like my anti niche, and that's kind of maybe the topic of today's show is like putting all the pieces together, because I'm not an expert in any one mast cell or mitochondria or microbiome. I'm a little bit of an expert in all those things. And that's kind of how we see great results with people, is by looking at all those things, and instead of being hyper focused on one thing,

Jackie Baxter  
yeah, and I think, you know, again, from speaking to people, the people that seem to be having the most success are the people who are able to see beyond their sort of little tiny specialism. And that's why your specialism or anti specialism is so useful in this context. It's not one thing, it's many things, which constitute one thing. That's a really roundabout way of saying it

Taylor Krick  
yeah, because yeah, that one thing is you! And how are things clicking on the inside of you, or whoever the person is. 

Can I tell you one thing that I think is like, the number one thing that I've seen and this is where I do fall into a specialty. And I always tell people to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But I have a specialty you know, before COVID happened in mold toxicity. And mold toxicity is association with MECFS and you know, all the just different things, you know, fatigue, anxiety, neuro chronic inflammatory response, dysautonomia, poTS, etc. 

And so when Long COVID came along, it was like, Oh, these are just mold patients. And so the mechanisms are so similar, and it's unbelievable. You know, again, I spent 90 minutes talking with people, it's unbelievable how many long haulers have a mold piece of their puzzle, whether they know it, or they don't know it. And sometimes it's been like a known thing. You know, like I've said, I mean, everybody knows, that means like, the basement is flooded, or they live in a moldy flat or apartment or something like that. 

Or sometimes people have no idea. It's not even on their radar, and we test their labs, and they show high yeast or candida or mold colonization, or just different fungal things. That is by far, stand out above and beyond everything else, the number one thing that I've seen with long COVID. So I don't know if anybody else on your show, I've never heard anybody mentioned that in any other episodes. But even like, you know, Tania Dempsey, or different mast cell people like. 

That's another thing is, because people will ask me, many people asked me, they said did mold cause this or did COVID cause this? And so one of the first things I was started telling me when I'd see this is, I said mold piled up the logs, and pour gas on them. COVID came and dropped a match on it, you know, if you've got a pile of gassy logs in your front yard. Not, that big of a deal is unless somebody comes and drops a match on it. And if you drop a match on just your front yard, normally, it's not that big of a deal, unless you've got a pile of gassy logs there. 

So the combo is a recipe for disaster and why, you know, in some cases, while I've seen perfectly healthy, you know, 30-31 year olds, or whatever your age you are, you know, why did they get sick and their mom doesn't who's, you know, not as healthy, let's say on the inside, but just you know, picking on an example. But why does one person get it and why does another not? 

And there's there's many different pieces of mechanisms in the literature associated like low glutathione associated with long COVID and COVID, COVID sequelae and how mold, mold toxins deplete glutathione, a lot of issues of mast cell and histamine stimulation, which mold is a major major mast cell trigger. So it's really interesting that that's the number one thing that I've seen and just the parallels are very, very similar of in the mold world. It's always been MECFS, mitochondrial dysfunction, sinus colonization, gut imbalances, neuro pituitary issues, et cetera.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, that is amazing, isn't it? I mean it's something that you hear mentioned, but not as much as maybe you're suggesting it should be. So that's definitely something.

Taylor Krick  
But it's one of those things that it's like, you can't nail down, you know. I've heard it said tha the mold science mimics cigarette science in the 60s. But that it's progressing slower, because there's a lot of landlords and employers and people that don't want to be liable. And it's hard to say like, Oh, your apartment caused your sickness, or your job caused your MS or whatever, that's really, really hard to say. But when you just talk to a lot of cases, view a lot of cases and just keep that on the table as possibilities, then it's shocking how common that is. 

Or a lot of people even earlier on in long COVID you know, I would say things to be like, you know, what's interesting is when mold is involved. And they say things back to me like, Huh, that's interesting that you say that - a week before I got COVID a pipe burst in my kitchen. And I had flooding in my kitchen. Or right before I got sick, I ripped out the carpet in my basement, or something like that. That was just like too many to be coincidental. So it's, I don't think you could ever prove that or confirm that even with studies, but it's unequivocal to me as I deal with people and talk to people and hear their stories.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, it's definitely at the very least worth looking into I think yeah. So I would love to sort of just finish with maybe some kind of - I don't know maybe just kind of like general advice. Somebody who's currently suffering - what would you sort of suggest to them to maybe look out for, try at home, ask doctors about or anything else?

Taylor Krick  
Yeah. That's a big one, I think the most time - because it requires a lot of time to solve your own health puzzle - I think the most time should go into learning and listening to podcasts like this, you know. I think that it's so easy to hear one success story and think I need that. Or I need this. And then what you get is a lot of disappointment if you bark up the wrong tree a lot of times. So I think that listening to podcasts like yours, listening to podcasts like mine, and then hearing. 

And I'd say that's another thing is like, you know, what my podcast goes deeper into even like, when you're talking about cold thermo for you. I have a four part podcast series, maybe it's three part, I forget, I have a four part series on the brain. And I have a three part I think series on mitochondria. And I talk about the mechanism of cold thermo and stuff like that. So just just continuing to uncover what is your biggest mechanism? 

You know, I hear so many people that maybe take something like nattokinase. And I'm picking on that because I know you said in your podcasts that it didn't do anything for you. But that's so common. But how do you know if that's your mechanism? Well, I'm not putting anybody on natto or Lumbro kinase or recommending it to them, or even educating them on it, unless they have some lab finding to confirm that they need that, like an elevated D dimer, or they've got, you know, some history of deep vein thrombosis or something like that. And in that case, you know, we're often working with their cardiologist or other things too, of course, but I'm not putting somebody on that unless that's our mechanism. 

I'm not putting somebody on anti inflammatories, unless I see that they have high inflammatory markers. Now, sometimes, we still might, just to try things, like for Neuro inflammation, sometimes I have people take high doses of anti inflammatories, and in 24 hours, their anxiety or their Vertigo is gone. 

And that's another thing that I would say, just as I'm talking about suggestions. I see a lot of people taking 20 good things, and taking minuscule doses of them. Whereas in my world, we might take four things that all aim for the same mechanism. And we might take them in high doses. And that will really block whatever mechanism we're aiming at. Sometimes people are shooting a bear with a BB gun. 

And so I have people come to me, and they say, Well, what makes you different than other people that I've seen? Or what tools do you have that are different? And I say I have none. And they're kind of shocked by that, like, No, I use the same tools, it's just the way that we apply them. So sometimes it might be spending 60 days taking five things for your gut, to rebalance your gut microbiome, and that might be kind of like first grade, and then we move on to second grade. And it's detoxification or a histamine. 

And again, knowing like you said, I think that all those things matter, but they don't matter that much. But what signs lead us to that? Do you have signs of high toxic burden? You know, it's not like - I believe that everybody needs to detoxify. But it's not like everybody in my office gets their solution from detoxification. So I'm not doing that with everybody. But what are the first grade, second grade, third grade kind of stepwise approach? And we might aim at this mechanism for a while and then see how did we hit it. 

And we look for subjective improvement, meaning symptom improvement, or objective improvement, which is lab based improvement. So again, taking a high dose of supplements, because finding out what your mechanisms are using labs, using natural things, more so you know, to me, I'm biased against pharmaceuticals. I'm not saying there's not a time and a place, but it's just not part of my scope. So I don't use them. But then going back to what I said originally - spending that time in education, or working with somebody that can help guide you to speeding up this trial and error process so that it doesn't take two, three years, so that it takes two, three months or six months or whatever the case is to try to just find your solutions faster. 

I think that's really what I do with helping people again, put these pieces of their puzzle together. So education, looking into labs, don't cheapskate yourself on labs, that's my recommendation, but also don't get ripped off. And same thing with supplements being targeted, but having some kind of metric to say, okay, in a month, we want brain fog to be better. And then in the next month, we want post exertional malaise to be better. And aiming at those targets and then seeing how that's working. That's my recommendation, I guess.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good advice. I think, you know, we hear a lot of people on social media, you know, they're taking 20 million supplements. And, you know, some of those supplements may well be useful, but at the same time, if you're just taking a scattergun and approach, then, you know, so I think that's probably quite a good warning to...

Taylor Krick  
Yeah, we call it the machine gun approach, you're gonna hit something. But you're wasting bullets, versus the sniper approach, which is zoom in on a target. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, exactly. 

Taylor Krick  
But again, just to not to self promote, but just if somebody wants to know more about these mechanisms, I've got videos on long COVID - one of the first questions was how did I get into long COVID. And that's how, was I started putting out information on some of these mechanisms, coming from, you know, mentors of mine and other people who were educating on it. But then putting out some videos on it, and then that drew more long haulers to my practice. 

Then I work with them - then I put out another video called Long COVID updated - what I've learned after working with, you know, maybe dozens of people at that time and then now it's a hundreds of people. So I just think that my podcasts, my youtube channel have more info on some of these mechanisms. And again, a little bit of everything, like mast cells and neuro inflammation and limbic system and cell danger response and vagus nerve dysfunction and mitochondria brain.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll make sure that all of those things that you've mentioned, as well as your podcast and YouTube channel are in the show notes. So yeah, do go and check them out. I've watched some of your videos, and I really enjoyed them. So  hopefully that'll be good. 

Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining me this evening - or this morning for you. It's been such a pleasure chatting and hopefully there's some really, really useful stuff there for people listening as well. So thankyou.

Taylor Krick  
Well, thanks for thanks for what you do, and educating in the long covid world.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai