117 - Leela O'Brien - Navigating Long Covid & finding meaning in life

Episode 117 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with the wonderful Leela O'Brien about her experiences with Long Covid and what she has learned about herself in the process. A big takeaway from this is the "what can we do" and that we don't need to wait to be healed before trying to find ways to enjoy life, even if they are not what we wanted or expected.

Personal website & info about her coaching business: https://www.leelaobrien.com

Leela's wellness & outdoor adventure blog: https://www.therealleel.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leelaeobrien

My Stroke of Insight - Jill Bolte Taylor

For more information about Long Covid Breathing, their courses, workshops & other shorter sessions, please check out this link

(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am absolutely delighted to be joined tonight by Leela O'Brien, who we met on an email I think, a couple of months ago. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this person is my person, we need to do this. So I'm really excited that we have finally managed to find the date that works. And we are now here to talk. So a very warm welcome to the podcast today.

Leela O'Brien  
Hi, Jackie, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I'm really excited to be here today. And I appreciate so much what you were doing with this podcast, and just putting that all the information and support system out there, because I know there are a lot of us who need it. So again, thanks for what you're doing. And I'm really excited to join you today. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, it's really exciting. And yeah, I guess as a kind of side note, I mean, I've said this before, but like one of the silver linings of this has to be the connections that we make with other people that we would never have connected with other wise. And I just think that, you know, in something that is a really horrible thing to have gone through, it's something nice to have come out of it, that I've certainly noticed. 

So before we veer off topic too badly, maybe you would just say a little bit about yourself.

Leela O'Brien  
First of all, I agree with you that the connections that have come out of this, it's definitely a silver lining. I've met so many people and sharing that compassion, and being there for each other, it's it's really been a beautiful thing. 

But yeah, a little bit about myself. I am 36 years old. And I guess before I got COVID, and even now, but I was just really into outdoor adventures, rock climber, Ice Climber, runner, skier, you name it, but in general, just love being out in nature. Also a science nerd. So before I got COVID, I was an aerospace engineer, very driven, also very driven with my outdoor activities, the climbing and the skiing. 

And I think in one of your other interviews, I remember someone else said that they mentioned interesting data point that a lot of people with long COVID tend to be actually were very healthy and fit prior to getting COVID. Not just that, but also perfectionist, very driven, and maybe push themselves a little too hard. And I you know, tend to be high stress, and I definitely fit in that category. So I think even before, about a year leading up to my getting COVID, I put a lot of pressure on myself with my career, and my outdoor activities. 

After I got my PhD, I went straight into a job working for NASA on a NASA space mission. I wasn't working directly for NASA, but contracted. And I didn't give myself the break I needed to recover. And I was used to being this type of person who could just focus so intently and for so long. And I just put so much pressure on myself for so long that I eventually got burnout. 

And so even before getting COVID I wish I hit this wall, and I could not focus to save my life. I remember just being at work calling, you know, calling my mom crying saying like, why I don't understand I'm not used to this. I I don't know why I can't focus any more or get any work done. And I just kept trying to push through and same with the outdoor activities. So I am not surprised that I got long COVID to be honest, it was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I mean, I can relate to so much of what you've just said. I mean, I'm obviously not been working for NASA. That is super cool. But yeah, you know, I think it's not everybody, but there were a lot of people, you know, possibly even the majority, I'm not sure if that's 100% true, of people with long COVID, were very busy, very driven. And again, they're the sort of personalities that don't rest when we need to because rest is evil, rest is bad. Rest is showing weakness. Why would we want to do that? I've heard this like from myself. And again, I've heard it from a lot of other people. 

And I don't know, I think like part of it for me in my recovery was, you know, it's very easy to blame ourselves and say, Oh, well, no wonder I got all of this, you know, I brought it down on myself, you know, how could I be so stupid? And it was like, no, no, there's no point blaming myself. There's no point blaming anyone else, you know, blame is probably not really helpful here. 

But at the same time, it was useful to kind of recognize some of those things that happened. So I can do better, I guess. I think that was certainly one of my takeaways from it, you know that actually doing that all the time is not healthy. You know, being busy, being driven isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it can be an unhealthy pattern if it becomes all the time, I think. But, you know, there's no point blaming ourselves because we didn't know any better. 

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you. And I realized that as well. There's no point in blaming and you know, the shoulda, coulda, woulda, like the past is the past. And I mean, that's part of our story, that's part of our life journey. And recognizing that and, and you're right, there's nothing wrong with being driven. There's nothing wrong with wanting to, you know, explore and have goals even. But I think it's yeah, when we become too obsessed with it, and put all our eggs in one basket, we must accomplish and keep accomplishing and keep, you know, going on the hamster wheel in order to feel worthy in our lives. And, and that's kind of when burnout happens. 

And it's, you know, if you're being fueled by the ego, or just this need to get something done or, you know, please other people or your life just feels like a chore, you're probably not being fueled by the right things. Like, I mean, even regarding my job and my outdoor activities, I used to be fueled by passion and creativity. And then when I started recognizing I was fueled by feeding my ego, that's kind of when things start to fall apart. 

And that's been a silver lining in my journey as well, kind of going back to my roots. Why? Why do I follow my passions to begin with? What's the true, you know, my true calling? What  do I really love about it? Versus what are the external factors that are driving me?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I love that so much. And there was something you touched on just there, about the self worth, and what we tell ourselves is important. And I think, you know, for all of my life, really, my upbringing has taught me, society has taught me, you know, the world has taught me, that it's important to do well at school, and to get a good job and to get a good income and all of these things that make you a quote, unquote, productive member of society. 

And then when you get something like long COVID, and you are not a quote, unquote, productive member of society, because you can't be, then suddenly, you feel like this awful failure. And you're constantly, you know, pushing yourself or trying to push yourself to do these things that you can't do because you're sick. And then on top of all of that, you feel terrible. Because you're a failure. 

There was someone said to me that your accomplishments aren't the only thing that's important about you. Even if I didn't recover, and never worked another day in my entire life, that still means that I'm a valid person. And it's frustrating that we do feel this pressure from society, whether it's, you know, from other people, or just the world in general. But yeah, this is definitely something that I've noticed. And how do we feel that self worth when we're not productive in the way that society tells us we should be? 

Leela O'Brien  
Oh, I mean, everything you said, like, if you hit the nail on the head. This is something that all of us going through long COVID. Not just long COVID. a lot of challenges of life, probably most people will experience in their life at some point. And like you I tied my identity to my accomplishments. And for me at least, it was 100%, like, my full self worth was in what I achieved academically and athletically. 

And, I mean, who knows where that originally stemmed from, like, I think society plays a role. Absolutely. But I think I never really had the highest self esteem. And I think I got a lot of my self esteem from those achievements. And, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don't know, I got a lot of praise for how well I did, you know, with my job, with my athletic achievements, and it kind of became like a drug to me. I was like, Oh, this is wonderful. Like, everybody who, like Loves Me, thinks I'm great at these things. This feels good. 

And I think I felt like I had no value beyond that, because that's all people really were complimenting me for. I didn't get complimented as much, aside from my family, for anything else. So why would I think I had more value. And then you know, after I got long COVID, it affected my my cognitive function. So I couldn't really do my job well, but you know, I also could not even could hardly move for a while so I couldn't do any of my athletic activities. So I lost all of that. And I yeah, like you said, I felt like a failure. I felt like, what good am I? I can't do any of the things that people loved about me. 

And at the end of it, though, like, I did realize like, wait, no, I'm so much more than this, there's a lot more to me. And there's a lot more that I value in myself, and that I truly believe other people value in me. And I mean, looking back at it, I am actually I'm happier with the person I am now than pre COVID. Because I was selfish. And I was very, like, driven by my goals. 

And now, you know, a lot less that way. I'm more giving, I've been connecting more with people I love and meeting new people, especially through this long COVID experience, giving back and just having more fun with life and feeling more passionate and excited and creative. 

And that doesn't mean I don't still struggle, you know, with that ego part, I do, but it really has changed for me a lot. And I would take this new person any day over the old one who is achieving more, I don't know, if you feel that with yourself. Or if you kind of came to a similar conclusion.

Jackie Baxter  
I think it is interesting, because when you are forced into this position, you know where you are ill. It's not like you've made changes out of something that you wanted to do, you've literally been forced to do it. And you've you know, your life has been turned upside down by something that you didn't ask for, you didn't want, you're not enjoying it. And it's really, really difficult. And it's almost like you're kind of forced to confront things that you don't want to. 

And I certainly found, I mean, I had a counselor who I'm still seeing now. And I honestly couldn't handle life without her at the moment. I think, you know, she's just been such a big part of the last two years. And I think speaking to her has been wonderful. But I think even without her, you know, you're sort of forced to confront these bits of you that maybe you don't like very much. And I didn't enjoy that at all. 

Because, I don't know, I wouldn't have called myself arrogant. But it was almost like I didn't have time to really think about who I was, because I was the things I did, a bit like you were saying. So suddenly, I wasn't the things I did, because I couldn't do them. So what was left? And you sort of, yeah, there's definitely things in there that I found that I was a bit uncomfortable with. 

And I think it was a good experience to have had in terms of finding those bits and pieces of me that I maybe didn't like, because I think it probably has made me a better person, a more empathetic person, probably a kinder person, I hope. But it wasn't an enjoyable experience at all. And you know, it's not like old me is completely gone. Like, she's definitely still here, right?

Leela O'Brien  
*laughs* That's the tough part. You know, it's like a back and forth, you know, trying to, you know, rewire your brain and be like, wait, no, I don't want to, you know, be that person anymore. I can't be. I'm not but you know, it still pops up every now and then and, and that's normal. Like, we're not going to just completely rid ourselves of the ego, but can be like shut it down quicker? Yeah. 

And I've learned to do that a lot better. And I don't think I would have if it weren't for having the long COVID. Like I had no reason to, I was just - like you were saying, like, you're so caught up in doing and achieving. And you feel like you don't have time to even address...

Jackie Baxter  
Your inner stuff, I guess, isn't it? 

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah, yeah. You know, like, your, your life crisis and what you know, the meaning of your life and all that.

Jackie Baxter  
But it's really interesting. And again, this is something that I've kind of noticed post-recovery as well, for me. And it's that I think partway through the illness I realized that the person that I was before wasn't as perfect as I thought she was. I spent the first maybe half of my recovery just desperate to go back to being that person. So I was trying to push through and I was trying to do all the wrong things and thinking the wrong things. And, you know, just doing everything wrong, and nothing was getting better. 

Then kind of realizing that actually, that life before. Like there were a lot of really great things about it. But also there was a lot of stuff that was there because it was there, rather than actually because I wanted it to be there. And since finding things that did help, since seeing a lot of improvement, and then since actually recovering, it's almost like I've been able to say right now I'm Jaxter 2.0. This is an upgrade, and I get to kind of pick the bits that I want. 

So there's a lot of me from before that is still there and there's a lot of me from before that I really like. But there is definitely some of that stuff that I've wanted to try and let go of. And I certainly don't want to come across as one of these People that says, Oh, I'm so grateful for my illness because it's, you know, done this, and it's done that. Because I don't think I will ever be grateful for my illness, it was hellish. 

But at the same time, there are things that I have been able to do better as a result of it. But I also remember someone saying that to me when I was kind of halfway through, and I hadn't found anything good. And she was like, oh, yeah, you know, it was, it was a good experience to have had, I've come out better. And I'm like, uuhhhh what? 

So I think that's definitely something that as, as I've seen improvement, and as I have come out the other side that I've been able to put a slightly more positive slant on it, even though I'm still acknowledging that it was awful. And I don't think I will ever not acknowledge that because it was. It was horrific. And I don't think anyone should ever deny that it was horrific.

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah. I mean, I agree with that. And I still in it too. I'm not even, you know, fully recovered. And I don't look at it as this like, wonderful thing like, like, it's, it has been hellish. And nothing has tested me more in this life. I think in the whole, like, being grateful for it, I think it is more, at least for me, it's that this is life. And life is going to not always go the way you want it to. And part of my story, it's what's happening to me, and I've changed because of it, and I can see the good and the bad in it. 

You know, there are things I don't like about it. But I've also changed in a way that I love and it's going to happen regardless. So what matters is how I react to it at this point, because there's nothing I can do to change it. And we hope for recovery, we believe we can, but I mean, even if it doesn't happen, that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy life anymore.

 And that's, I guess, I don't know if this is going off into a tangent. But that's kind of one of my greatest lessons in this is, I mean, how do we be with it and acknowledge this is tough, and they're going to be those days, where we have to be real about it and be like this sucks. Like for instance I lost motor function. And I'm like, I can't do the things that I want to do at the same level at this time. And I'm upset about that. 

But I also realized that I can't dwell on that too much. I still have a life to live. There's still a lot of life to enjoy. And I was so miserable for so long, when I just was upset about the situation like, didn't want it to happen. I was like, I wish this didn't happen. But like, there was nothing I could do about it. So I think I had this turning point where - and I guess this is jumping into that whole finding the balance between hope and acceptance, might as well just jump into it now. 

But for me, I tried all these different things to get better, like supplements. And, you know, I already had a healthy diet, but eating even healthier. Left my job, like tried to reduce stressors. And you know, each day that I woke up and was not better, I felt miserable. And I think I got to this point where I was like, I'm so focused on my healing, and wanting to be better that I'm missing out on life, I'm missing out on enjoying my life for what it is. 

And I kind of just realized, like, maybe I shouldn't focus so much on the outcome and the need to heal. You know, I felt like I needed to trust in it. And just be like, I believe 100% that healing is possible for me. And I've seen it happen in other people, you know, I know it's possible. The mind and body together can do amazing things. And I mean, look at all these other people you've interviewed, these other people with long COVID and other illnesses in the world who have recovered. 

But I realized I needed to stop focusing so much on it. Because that was making me worse, honestly. It was like letting me down and I was just fighting against it too much. And yeah, I got to this point where I'm like, You know what, I deserve to still enjoy my life. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna have the hard days where I'm struggling and feeling like, Oh, this sucks. I wish it were different. 

But I think the difference was as I started to just, I acknowledged those feelings and I processed those emotions. And then I kind of just let them pass and was like, Well, I'm going to enjoy my life anyway. And, you know, I'm still going to get outside and do the activities to the best of my ability. You know, still be in nature and do what I love and still like find a life that lights me up because I deserve that. Why not? Why Shouldn't I. 

And I think that's actually kind of the, in my opinion, the gateway to healing, is kind of not really focusing so much on your symptoms, and what you're going through, but kind of living kind of like you're already healed. I started doing that. And when I recovered the first time - I did have a initial recovery. It's when I kind of just forgot about it, and I like just went outside and did what I could, enjoyed being in nature.

 And, you know, because I mean, I'm a rock climber, and like, for a while, I could not, I could hardly walk. And then when I was able to, like, climb again, for the first time, I just, I didn't even care that I still had issues with my motor function. I was just happy I could do it. And it was definitely a learning curve for me, you know? And it still is, absolutely. But I think, yeah, the greatest thing I've gotten out of this is like, wow, I can enjoy my life, even with this illness. I can still have a full and vibrant life. And I, you know, I believe healing can happen. But you know, I don't need to wait for my recovery.

Jackie Baxter  
It's that "what can we do", isn't it? You know, just because we can't do everything we want to, doesn't mean that we can't do some things that we want to or, you know, maybe we can do some of them but in a slightly adapted way. And I think, I found this some of the time as well, that you can get so caught up in how awful things are, that you kind of forget to focus on some of those things that you can do. 

And like some of those things that you can do some of the time, is like, I can lay on my sofa and drink hot chocolate. That's all I can do today. But actually, is there a way that we can say, well, actually, I really like hot chocolate and my sofa is quite comfy. So is there a way of, you know, rather than making this a really negative thing, to just maybe try and think about the positive a little bit more? 

And you know, that's not to say that, you know, oh, well positive thinking that will cure you, and that'll everything will be fine. Like it's not that simple at all. But if you could choose to feel positive about something or negative about it, then I think I would always rather try to see the positives in something, rather than the negatives, personally.

Leela O'Brien  
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I love what you said about the hot chocolate, because that's exactly what I had to do. I would have two to three months where I could not, I could hardly walk. And all I could do was sit on the couch and drink hot chocolate. And I was like, oh yeah, this is nice, or you know, like a cup of tea. And like, you know, let me find the blessings. Let me find the good because, yeah, like, it feels a lot better than feeling miserable all the time and playing victim like, and that's what I felt personally like. 

I mean, who knows the recipe to physical healing, but you get to a point where it doesn't even matter as much anymore if you've healed physically, if you feel full and happy still. And like I said, we're human, we're not perfect. I'm not saying like, every day, we should feel so happy, you know, like. We are going to, like, resent this. That's natural. But it's kind of just, I guess, as an overall attitude and not dwelling on that, or really staying in that negative space for that long.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah. And I think, you know, maybe that is acceptance, you know, accepting that I'm going to try and make the best of things where I can. And I also am accepting that there are going to be some bad days. And you know, and it's okay to feel those bad days when they happen because they are bad, and they're not comfortable. And they're horrible. And you feel terrible. And, you know, it's not trying to pretend they're not horrible, because they clearly are, we've all experienced them on some level. Yeah, maybe that is sort of the true acceptance, isn't it? 

And then it was almost like for me, once I stopped fighting against it, then actually, that did help a bit. And I was able to then be like, Okay, this is what it is now. I'm not saying that this is what it's going to be like forever, because I was never going to accept that. But I am accepting that this is what it's like now. And then that definitely did help, that alongside as you were saying the hope for recovery, you know, keeping that belief, but without the pressure. 

I think when you're putting so much pressure on yourself to recover and you know, then this comes into the perfectionist thing that we were talking about earlier that, you know, you and I definitely have in common and you know, I think a lot of other people I've spoken to as well. 

If you are constantly trying to make yourself be perfect and do recovery perfectly, then you're just putting so much pressure on yourself that your body is going to struggle with. So it's finding that nice balance, isn't it between the two; where you're not saying well, I'm never going to recover, because we have to have that belief. But you're also accepting that it might be a bit of a bumpy road, which it does seem to be.

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah, part of the acceptance is accepting that, yeah, there are going to be hard days. And that's okay. And even prior to me getting COVID, I mean, I've dealt with this with, you know, chronic anxiety and depression for years. I'm going to have awful days, and, all I need to do is be able to ride it out, you know. I don't need to be positive every second. 

And especially, you know, for my long COVID journey, it's that balance between hope and acceptance. It's a tricky one. Because for the hope piece, for instance, like, we don't know anything for certain, however, I have no reason to believe that I'm not going to heal. You know, I might have all the data against me, you know, but I will never give into that. Because why should I that, that limits that possibility. 

Because I do think the mind body connection is very strong. And if we believe in something, you know, you know, our mind and body together can make it happen. I mean, if you're, you know, your body can make you sick, it can heal. So, I will never not believe in my healing, but I shouldn't put my pressure on myself to heal. Like you were saying, that pressure is unhealthy. And that's going to make you even more sick. And you're so focused on it, that you see yourself as sick. And how can you be well, if you see yourself as sick? It doesn't really send the body or the mind, you know, the right message for healing. So that has been challenging for me. 

But I've just been doing a lot of meditation work around this as well, to believe in my healing, but also, yeah, just make peace with what is and I go about life as normal as I can. I mean, it looks different. But I try not to focus on the symptoms as much anymore. And that when I healed the first time, no supplement, no diet No, no like that. That was the thing that ended up doing it for me. I mean, I don't know for sure. But it seemed to be that moment that when I recovered the first initially. And like living your life as if you're healed, it doesn't mean you're pretending you're healed, you just have the same, I guess, like gratitude and emotion. You're just finding a way to enjoy your life?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah again, it's coming back to that footer focusing on the can, rather than the can't, I think, isn't it? I guess. It's so easy to get pulled into that, you know, awfulness, you know, because it takes over everything in your life, doesn't it, when you're sick with something like this. And, you know, it's not just taking over your life for a couple of days, like, you know, quote, unquote, regular illness. It's taking over every aspect of your life for a long period of time. 

So it's very difficult to see any aspect of your life that you can go about in any way close to normal. And then that kind of gets into a bit of a spiral, doesn't it? Where you can think, Oh, well, everything's terrible. And yeah, everything is terrible. You know, it's pretty horrendous. But if we can find those little things, then sometimes the little things can then become bigger things. 

And definitely, you know, focusing - it's very difficult not to focus on your symptoms and your illness, because it's, you know, so obviously there. But if you're able to just, even for a little bit, take yourself away from them, then it can just be so helpful, however difficult that is, however little you can do it. I think it's really worth trying to do. 

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah I agree. And, I mean, you're right, it is difficult. It's very much in your face. And yeah, like not focusing on it was not easy for me at all, like, you know, my motor function, my hands and feet don't work the same. So it's like, How can I not, I can't even open a jar without being like, bombarded by this. Or, you know, the intense fatigue, like, you can't ignore it. It's hard to. 

But I think yeah, that's where a lot of, at least for me, like getting outside and meditation has been very helpful. It's, like good sorts of distractions, I guess, or I don't know if distraction is the right word, but, you know, making the effort to try not to pay attention to it constantly. And it's not easy, but I feel like over time I've gotten a lot better at it. 

And it's not that I don't acknowledge it, because it is in your face. I'm like, Okay, this is happening. Whatever. This has been going on for a while. Yeah, like, it sucks. But, you know, I'm just gonna keep keep on with my life, though. And so that's kind of more of the attitude I take with it. It's not that I ignore it or don't acknowledge it, because you're right. It's like it's hard not to be You know, I kind of just pay it a little attention. And then kind of just like, well, this isn't serving me anymore, dwelling on this. So let me just think about other things, let me get excited about something. When you get excited about anything else, it kind of helps take your mind off of it.

Jackie Baxter  
it's like taking yourself out of your own head for a bit, isn't it. And this is something that I've really struggled with. Because I have a very busy brain, it's always talking at me, it's full of ideas. And I love that about my brain in a lot of ways. But it's also like, it can be a total nightmare, sometimes when I just need a bit of peace and quiet in my head. 

And then when you have symptoms, when you have illness, you know, the brain is just like, you know, going round and round and round. And it's overthinking and it's thinking about all these terrible things that are happening. And it's very difficult to get away from that. And if we can get out of our own heads a little bit, it's that... 

I've mentioned her before, there's a, I think she's a neuroscientist, called Jill Bolte Taylor, and I will drop the link in the show notes, because everybody should watch it. Yeah, she talks about this taking a step to the right, you know, being more in our right brain in our kind of, you know, less logical, more relaxed side of our heads. And, you know, I think certainly for me, I spend so much time in the logical overthinking half of my brain, which is a very necessary part of my brain. But you know, I don't need to be there all the time. 

And then those times where I'm able to take a step out of there, it's like, Oh, hey, this is quite nice. This is a place I should be more often. And it you know, for me, it was finding ways to do that. And it still is now, you know. I still have a very busy brain that overthinks and, you know, throws 2 million ideas at me every single day. And it's you know, it's knowing when to go. Okay, thank you brain. Can we take a break? And it doesn't always listen. 

Leela O'Brien  
Oh, totally. I have that kind of brain too. I mean, I'm a scientist, it's like, yeah, non stop. And you're right, it is finding those things that can bring you out of that. Because you need to balance the Yeah, the left and the right brain. And I think that's why I'm so drawn to being in the outdoors. And even meditating in the outdoors. It's something that brings me to that. 

Even when I was a kid, I would just go outside and hop on the rocks in my yard for hours. Because it just my brain could just kind of like relax. And I was still thinking but it was different. It was kind of more like creative thoughts, like not as analytical or logical. And it's so important to have that. And I think it's important to find the things that trigger that within you. I mean, everybody's different. For me, it's being out in nature. 

I mean, when I can climb or run or, you know, I would do that. And I would get into this state, this flow state where my analytical mind would shut down, and I would just kind of be in a more open and creative state. And I find even going outside for walks, just staring at the sky does that for me, I kind of engage more in that sense of wonder. And that's when I'm not Yeah, just like, yeah, having those thoughts come in, like a mile a minute about, what about this, this and this, you know, like, and it's been very critical for my healing. 

And I think it's important, yeah, for each person to figure out how they individually can find that. Because it's going to look different for everyone, where it, how they reach that.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah definitely. And I think we kind of connected over sort of love of the outdoors. And we were talking about this a little bit before we hit record. And I think certainly something for me, and I think you've found the same, you know, if there's something that is such a big part of your life before, then, you know, finding ways to get that into things that help you to recover. 

So for you, you're saying that being outside is something that you've always done, and I can completely relate to that. And, you know, suddenly you get sick, and all of those things that you've always done, and the things that you've done to relieve stress, to get out of your head to do all of these things that you just said, they're the very things that you can't do. Or if you try to do them, they don't end well. So it's like how do I de-stress when I can't do the things that helped me to de-stress? 

And I think finding this new relationship with some of these things that we did before. So you know, for me, cold water was a huge part of my recovery. And that, I think, was so good for me because I was an outdoor adventure kind of person before, so that really resonated. You know for somebody who was more of a creative person, then finding some creative kind of way of allowing themselves to relax, de-stress, heal, all of these things, might resonate more with them. 

But that's very much it's doing it in a different way, isn't it? Because, you know, I couldn't go and do all the things that I did before. And the few times that I did try, it was definitely not a good idea. And I sort of learned that one the hard way. So it was creating this new way of doing the things, or new way of being outside, and trying to be happy with that, I suppose. And it sounds like you've had a sort of similar experience. 

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah definitely. That was one of the greatest challenges. And I think everybody with long COVID can relate to that. Because it's affected your passion, you know, that the things you love to do in some way. And like we discussed earlier, initially, I thought, if I can't do it at the level that I'm used to doing it at, I don't want to do it at all. Like this is triggering. And I got to a point where I'm like, well, that's silly. I love this, this is what I love, this is what heals me. And let me find a relationship with it where I can still get those benefits out of it. 

And initially, when I could like not really even get off the couch, or walk, I couldn't really do many outdoorsy things at all. And that's when I really took to meditation. And I found that became a new way for me to reach that state. I had to turn to something else, I just I needed to at that moment. And then as I started getting a little better, I could start walking outside and, and I was like, oh, you know, what I love about my activities, like I love doing the activities, but I also just love movement and being in nature. 

So if all I can do is, you know, have a little shuffle outside and look at the sky, look at the trees, you know, that's bringing me joy too, because I'm still experiencing that sense of being present. That sense of wonder, it just looks a little different. And I think that was a lesson for me, of learning how can I now adapt to a new normal, and still find a way to relax and decompress. 

And I realized I didn't necessarily need to be doing the most epic and intense athletic things, you know, I didn't need to climb the highest mountain to get that, you know, what we call mountaintop moment of that, you know, elation, and that excitement. I realized, like, wow, I can kind of create that from within, actually, and I can even just be outside looking at a sunset and feel that. 

And I mean, it sounds kind of silly. But like, for me having that realization was pretty huge. Because before this, my happiness was so conditional that I had to be like doing a hard climb, or, you know, achieving some great thing to feel that like, almost like euphoria, you know, kind of feeling that I love so much. And I realized that, actually, I don't really need that. Like, I can find that in different ways. It's all how I create it. Like I realized I was the creator of it. And like I said, I'm not perfect at it. But it was it was a huge realization for me. 

And it's is one of the silver lining findings of my long COVID, was recognizing that I can still have that, I can still find that, even if it is a little different. And we just kind of have to get more creative with how can I find this? I mean, we look at you know, there's some people who cannot move at all. And look, I see joy in their eyes, I see them enjoying life and having fun. You know, they found a way, you know, 

I always think back to Stephen Hawking, for instance. And you know, what he made out of his ALS, he just went deep within his mind and found a way to still really get into life and enjoy it and find his meaning. And I think we're all capable of that. And it's not to say there aren't gonna be hard days. But I think we can all find a way to still find that even if we have to adapt it. And it looks a little different.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful way of putting it. There was someone that I, in fact, I said this to her in an interview, and she was like, Oh, it was me that told you that! So I think it was Lorna, who said this, that it was working out what it was that she got from certain things. So you know, what was it that she loved so much about running in the park, for example. 

And, you know, I think she's she said she worked out that it was being outside and it was being around people. And she was like, Okay, well, I can't do the running, but maybe I can get the outdoors and the sort of social aspect of that in a way that does work for me. And, you know, by doing that, by being able to get those things that were so important, then, you know, that gives you something to smile about, even if it's just for a very short time. 

And you know, and it's, again, it's coming back to those little things being so important, isn't it? You know, we can't do the big things, you know, and maybe we can do some things if we break them down, and, you know, find ways around them. But, you know, there are lots of things that we can do. And that's important to be able to find those ways to do that, I think.

Leela O'Brien  
Absolutely, I mean, sometimes, the little things are the big things. This is coming from someone who always had to be doing the big things, for me to like recognize that. *laughs* Yeah, I thought, you know, at this time in my life, the small things have to be the big things. And sometimes they - I mean, what did I love the most about, like what you were saying with, with running, what she loved about it most she realized it wasn't actually the act of running. 

And I've learned that as well. Like with my outdoor activities, I do love them. I love the act of climbing and, you know, the being focused and problem solving. But I mean, when I look back on my favorite memories in the outdoors, I actually don't look back on the achievement and like how well I did or what I accomplished, or you know, the exact like, route I climbed. I remember, like, the connections, the people I was with, you know, laughing having a good time. 

I also think of just that sense of awe and wonder of looking around at the nature around me, and just being fully present in my movement. And so I narrowed it down for myself that, okay, I don't necessarily need to do achieve the big thing, and have the glory. It's really the being in the moment and enjoying other people's company and nature that I connect with, and just exploring. And the good news is, is I can still do that, you know, there are still ways I can do that.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, and it's almost coming back to what you were saying right at the start about the kind of the ego. And it's almost like you've realized that, oh, that's not that important, actually. It's the other stuff that is important. And that's probably what gives you more joy, and actually supports you and your body more.

Leela O'Brien  
Oh, yeah, the ego is so - it's still hard though, to shut it down. I mean, my ego got really out of control. And funny, not funny. But an interesting thing to notice after I recovered quite a bit for a while from my symptoms, and then my ego started kind of getting back in control again. I was able to climb again and I was climbing strong and running strong. And I started being fueled by my ego and like, oh, I can do you know, all these, you know, big routes again, look at me, you know, like, defying the odds of long COVID. 

And then that's when life served me a slice of humble pie and I, you know, got sick again and then started losing my motor function again. And I was like, Okay, maybe this is my lesson, you know, the ego. But yeah, it always tries to come back. It's hard. It's a hard one for me to shut down. But I realize deep down that's not what truly fuels me in this life.

Jackie Baxter  
Which again, yeah, brings us back to the importance of the things that do bring us happiness and joy, even if they are the very small things that seem really inconsequential, until you realize actually that yeah, as you say, the little things actually sometimes can be the big things. So maybe that's a lesson to learn from all of this. 

Leela O'Brien  
Yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  
Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been really amazing to finally chat with you and to hear all about your experiences and you know, it's just as you say, it's so nice to connect with someone who kind of has had similar experiences but through a different lens and all of that. so I think you know, there's there's a lot that I've got from chatting to you today actually, and I'm sure the same is true for everybody else listening. So thank you so much.

Leela O'Brien  
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking and yeah, with each conversation there's always a new thing to learn, something to connect with someone else on and I yeah, I really hope everybody out there, you know, can connect with us on this as well. And I'm just thinking of everybody out there going through this, and just wishing the best.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai