212 - Amy Davies - Internalised Pressure in Recovery: Letting Go Of Your Inner Drill Sergeant

We talk about how internalised pressure can keep the nervous system in threat mode and make recovery from Long Covid, ME/CFS and other health challenges harder, even when we are doing “all the right things”. We explore perfectionism, shame, and control, then land on practical ways to create space and choose small steps that help us feel a bit more okay. 

• what internalised pressure means and why it matters for nervous system regulation 
• why stress responses are meant to be short bursts, not a constant state 
• how external pressures differ from unconscious inner demands 
• perfectionism in recovery and how helpful practices become overscheduled 
• self-criticism, shame spirals and the idea of mental self-harm 
• stepping out of comparison culture and fear-driven fixing 
• learning to tolerate not knowing and loosening the need for control 
• using tiny actions and body-based cues to reduce overwhelm 

Links:

Connect with Amy: https://amydavies.co.uk/

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Welcome And Episode Focus

Jackie Baxter 0:56

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long COVID podcast. I'm delighted to be joined today by Amy Davis, and we're going to talk about internalized pressure and how this can impact our nervous system and our recovery. And I think the first question we're going to do is what on earth do you mean by that? But before we get into that, Amy, would you like to just start by saying a few words about who you are and what you do?

Amy Davies 1:25

Jackie, and thanks so much for having me. So I'm Amy and I'm an embodiment coach and somatic practitioner. And I mainly work with people with fatigue-related conditions like lung COVID, MECFS, and also chronic pain as well. And I came to this work following my own health journey with chronic pain and fatigue that I developed back in 2018. And part of the reason why I came to this work was because I needed it myself, and then I found such a passion for it. And that's how things sort of moved from them.

Jackie Baxter 2:05

Yeah, so you have walked this walk, let's say.

Amy Davies 2:09

Oh yes, yes, I've bought all the t-shirts.

Jackie Baxter 2:14

Absolutely, yes. Well, I'm delighted to have you here today, and I think this is a really important topic. We were just um chatting a little bit before we hit record, and it turns out that we have a lot a lot in common, no surprises there, um, and have both kind of experienced this kind of um pressure and the negative impact of it on recovery. So I'm really looking forward to getting into this, and uh I think we've got a lot to share. So before we kind of dive into it any further, can you talk a little bit what you mean by internalized pressure for anyone who is not quite sure what we're on about?

Internalised Pressure Explained Simply

Amy Davies 2:57

Absolutely. And um, I've been using this term more sort of in how I communicate my work and with clients because I find it encapsulates so much. So our nervous system, first and foremost, is kind of like um our body's threat detector. So it signals when um something isn't quite right, it's that, okay, this is a threat. And a lot of um a lot of processes uh neurobiological in the body ensue, and this is what can contribute towards symptoms as well. And when we are experiencing pressure, this keeps the nervous system in high alert. So it's kind of like the alarm bells ringing, the threat detectors sounding. And um when we're working with fatigue conditions, we want to try and calm the nervous system down to bring it into a healthier state. And that's not that it's got to be calm all the time, because we'd be robots if we were calm all the time, you know. We want to be able to move in and out of state. So actually, when you know, when we need that alarm system, actually, we need to be able to act on that. There's nothing wrong with um being stressed or angry, etc. Um, what we want is for that to be an appropriate response to the stimulus that's going on at the time, and we want to be able to move out of that state so that it's not so depleted because we're not designed to be in these high activation states for really long periods of time. We want them more to be short, short bursts when we need them, and then to be able to come out of those high intensity states. Um, and with fatigue conditions, it often is that um I remember a doctor described it to me sort of very early on when I was being diagnosed. He was like, you know, it's kind of got a bit stuck, you know, it's like the alarm signals on all the time. It's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I can feel that. Um, and it's very hard to get it out of that stuck mode. Um, and I think one of the sometimes say it feels like a catch-22, or it just feels like a big cosmic joker that the universe has a dark sense of humour about it, but actually we're in these heightened stress states, and then the illnesses or the conditions themselves are very, very stressful. So actually, on top of that existing level of you know, sort of the alarm signal sounding, you know, the conditions themselves throw in all this extra stress that makes it very, very hard to come out of those states. Um, and we also need to do this very, very slowly as the nervous system doesn't like big, big changes because it also thinks of that as a threat. So again, we're back to that catch 22, you know, cosmic joke style of things. Um we want to work on helping drip feed signals of actually things are okay, you know, we don't need to be on such high alert to the nervous system. Uh, and we can do that through a number of different ways, you know, there's body-based practices, lifestyle changes, you know, reframing thoughts, it can be down to you know the foods we eat, etc. Um, but doing this in a way that is sort of slow, gradual, and consistent, so that we're not overwhelming things as well, because the nervous system also likes familiarity. And when we try and change stuff too quickly, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't like this, and I'm seeing this as a threat. So, again, why this can be so tricky um to work with. Um, and I think we can often see a lot of external pressures um quite easily. So, say, if we're like, well, I'm really unwell and I can't work and therefore I can't get paid, you know, that's a huge, huge stressor. It's a lot of pressure, understandably. Um, and also, you know, the illness itself, where we're like, actually, I'm in a lot of pain or I'm not able to do the things that I like to do. Um, and you know, that's a very oversympathized, you know, there's so many facets of this stuff. Um, so there's these big external pressures, but then the internalized pressure is often like a second layer that I see quite a lot and I've lived quite a lot as well. Uh, I'm not talking about this from a place of, you know, oh, actually, we shouldn't do this because that can be pressure as well. It's incredibly human and natural that we do do this, but internalized pressure can be things around um maybe putting a lot of pressure on ourselves to get better by an arbitrary deadline, um, which again makes so much sense. You know, why wouldn't we want to be better? That pattern might have served us really well in life in different scenarios, you know, maybe when we had to um complete the qualification or finish work or help out a family member, you know, those skills are really helpful. Um, but when we apply it to our health, when we're in this activated state that's got a little bit stuck, that can feel like extra pressure, and our nervous system can almost double down on that as well. Because it feels like, oh, oh, actually, this, you know, this is quite um, this is a lot of pressure, and I can't do that. Um, it can come up uh around self-criticism, um, a lot of classic protective mechanisms that can contribute towards these types of health conditions, so things like uh perfectionism, um excess thinking or intellectualizing, um maybe having a history of being, you know, the achiever, you know, the one that always got the good grades, you know, never caused anyone any problems, was always there to help people out. Um, and and then there's other more um nuanced takes on this as well. So um some people that maybe feel that they've had to mask a lot through life, you know, that might be through self-protective mechanisms, it might be that someone identifies uh with neurodiversity and they're like, actually, this is something that I've done from a very young age that I probably didn't realise that I was doing. It's all it's all ways of having internalized pressure, you know, it's all different facets and threads of actually I can't just be me however I am in this moment and feel okay in my body uh to do that, you know, and often for really good reason. You know, there's loads of systemic reasons um why we can't do that, you know, if we even think in the workplace, uh, you know, particularly in the past where it's like, oh, I can't show up and just be like, actually, I feel terrible, I don't want to be here, uh, etc. You know, some of us are paid to um or have been paid to, you know, give off a presentation of, oh, yes, you know, customer service roles, that type of thing, or very public-facing roles where people do need to um, you know, present in a certain way, or do need to meet certain goals and deadlines, etc. Um, so I use this term of internalized pressure because it does encapsulate so much. Um, it's absolutely huge, and I will have missed out lots of ways uh that it does come up. And also this is very personal as well. So I've given very generalized examples, you know, I'll come up for people in particularly um personal ways. But I think sometimes working with that, oh okay, where's where's the pressure? You know, whether that is internalized or not. Um, you know, I think we mentioned before we hit record that sometimes we can get very um perfectionistic about recovery, you know, and need to be doing all these protocols or different regimes and things, um, which is perfectionism again, you know, it's wearing a different hat is very understandable because why wouldn't we want to feel better? And we live in a society that's always given us the messages of actually, if you just try hard enough, you know, if you keep going or if you find the magical thing, I'll say in uh air quotes, you know, that's the way through this. Where so much of that often falls down with these types of health conditions, and this isn't saying, you know, there's a lot of things that are very helpful, but if we try and do too much at once, and there's that intention of either force or worry behind it, then that's giving off that implication of internalized pressure as well. Um, so I think just sort of opening it out, I'll often say to people, you know, actually, where's the pressure right now? And let's, you know, really zoom out and see where it's coming from, you know, how does that feel in your body? And then people can get quite curious about what might be coming up for them. Um, and there is the stuff that we really, you know, can't avoid a lot of the external stuff that might be going on. You know, we we need to pay our bills still when we're well, unfortunately. And there are certain demands there, but maybe noticing, okay, you know, what's what's the narrative that's playing out for me around this, or how's my body responding to it? You know, it's not always at the level of conscious thought. Um, and then we can start, you know, sort of exploring those layers of internalized pressure and maybe just giving light to some things where we're like, oh, actually, you know, this is a really rubbish situation, but then there's all these angles where it's becoming extra hard because of you know certain beliefs or patterns, again, that are all completely human, you know, why wouldn't they be playing out? Why wouldn't we be thinking this is the way to go? Because we've often done that for a really long time. It's worked really well in other areas of life, and it's generally what we're told to do.

External Stress Versus Inner Demands

Jackie Baxter 13:23

Yeah, I and I think you've given a really great overview there. And what really struck me as you were speaking was that, you know, there are a lot of pressures from outside. And I think we tend to be much more aware of the pressure from outside. You know, we know that we have financial stress, we know that we have friends and family members that are relying on us who maybe are so desperate for us to get better that they're putting a whole load of pressure on us that they probably don't intend. But we're probably quite aware of some of them, if not all of them. Whereas these internalized pressures tend to be much more unconscious, I think. Certainly in my experience, until I started working on this stuff and speaking to other people and working with my therapist, who definitely played a huge role in my recovery and I think needs more credit than I ever gave her. You know, I was completely unaware of the internal pressure that I was putting on myself on top of all of the external pressures. And I think you made a really great point that we can't avoid everything, you know, but we can make things a little bit easier for ourselves if we have that little bit of awareness. And it reminds me of the um, I don't you've probably come across this before, the uh the first and the second arrow. And it's a slightly different take, but kind of similar in that, isn't it? You know, the first arrow is the things that have happened already, or the things that we maybe can't avoid. And the second arrow is how we respond to that, or maybe the things that we are able to have some control over. So maybe your first arrow, kind of in this slightly, slightly altered metaphor, would be your external pressures that you can't avoid, or you know, maybe you can avoid some of them, but the ones that that you can't, and then this internalized pressure is that second arrow that actually we can, if we bring a little bit of awareness into this, start to think, okay, maybe I could let go of that, maybe I could give myself an easier ride here, and that would take a little bit of the pressure off. But I think so much of it is about awareness, but awareness with compassion as well, not awareness with that kind of like, oh, you idiot, why haven't you worked this out yet? Because that was certainly my first response. Why could you be so stupid to put all this extra pressure on yourself?

Amy Davies 15:52

And I see it as well, you know, that there's an you know, I see this in my own personal experience. Um, there's so many layers to it as well, but then we can almost get to the point where we then beat ourselves up for being perfectionist about recovery. You know, we get into that trap and then it's like, oh, this is what I'm doing, or oh yeah, I'm adding extra pressure on. And it it sort of it sort of sneaks in a little bit. And I think with a with a lot of this, um we we might not always, well, again, however, someone chooses to label it, but we're sort of in the territory of shame when that starts to sneak in, which is a bodily experience. I know as I just as I'm talking about it, I'm like, oh, you know, it doesn't feel very nice. It's sort of like, oh, it's like the little gremlin that's sat in the corner going, oh yes, how can we make you feel bad right now? I know. Um, this might all already be terrible. I can make you feel a little bit worse by uh, you know, thinking, oh, actually, now this is my fault for example being perfectionist around recovery or for pushing through or whatever it might be. So I think that curiosity and compassion is key and trying to hold it with a bit of lightness, you know, so that we don't then start almost, you know, shaming the shame or shaming the protective mechanism. Because, you know, what why on earth wouldn't you want to get out of this? You know, why wouldn't you put on, you know, the achiever cap that's like, well, actually, if I just do all the things, then of course I'll be better in X amount of time. And also, why wouldn't you want to be better in that amount of time? You know, our human brains really like timelines. And also, I think that can sometimes be part of a coping mechanism as well, where we do give ourselves sort of timelines in our mind's eye to work towards. Um, so I don't say any of this to knock that stuff. Um, I think it's just, you know, when it does come up, how can we be a little kinder to ourselves? You know, as you say, how can we be compassionate? Um sometimes, you know, not always. Again, it's individual for people, you know. Sometimes we can smile and almost laugh to ourselves and be like, oh, this old pattern again. Um, I know I do that quite frequently at this point, you know, it's not always been the way. Um, but I think it's just allowing ourselves to be more human, you know, there's that self-awareness. And then there's like, yeah, actually, this is really messy, you know, it is very catch 22E. That's what I've found in my experience a lot. And um, I think a lot of people that I speak to resonate with that as well. Um, but yeah, just sort of looking out for those threads where it's like, ah, is this where the pressure's coming in? And actually, what does that need? You know, how can I treat that? How can I treat that kindly? You know, if that if that was my friend rather than me, how would I relate to it in that way?

Shame Spirals And Self Criticism

Jackie Baxter 19:40

I I think that's a really good point because like we are usually our worst critics, I think. Um and you know, of course we have expectations of other people, but I think we tend to be much more forgiving of other people's failings than our own. And I think often, yeah, that kind of reminding ourselves, you know, if someone else told me that they have just realized that they are, you know, giving themselves a really hard time, would you turn around and say, oh, that's ridiculous. Why have you been doing that? You're a terrible person for doing that, and it's all your own fault. Of course you wouldn't. And yet somehow it's acceptable to say that stuff to ourselves, and we do over and over and over again. And I think until someone kind of turned around and said that exact kind of thing to me, I didn't realize quite how harmful it was. And um, I think they actually were using the term kind of mental self-harm, and I thought, oof, that's heavy. And I thought, actually, you know what? Maybe it should be, maybe it should have a name that feels heavy because actually it is so heartbreaking, isn't it?

Amy Davies 20:57

And I I think sometimes because of the nature of fatigue conditions, you know, and not always, but you know, that they often are so misunderstood by others and even people that are quite well-meaning that maybe don't have much experience of them, you know, there's you know, it's getting better, but there's still not a lot of wide information around things. When people do respond in certain ways that activate that as well, you know, when people, you know, do say, but you look great, or yeah, I get tired too, you know, all the classics that oh are so painful, you know. I I just used those and I just sort of like sigh forward when I hear that because it's like, you know, and often people don't mean anything by it, you know, sometimes they do, unfortunately. Um, but it can feel so cruel. And you know, there's not that person there that's saying, actually, yeah, I see this is really, really hard, and it feels like you can't win no matter what you do. You know, if you don't push through, you're not doing anything. If you do push through, you're not getting better. And also, you know, it doesn't feel like anyone's got a concrete answer for you and you desperately want that, it can almost feel like you know, people are being really left alone. And then, you know, those voices are going to amplify a lot, you know, the protective parts really uh that are like, you know, actually, yeah, I'm gonna take control, I'm gonna do what I'm doing. Uh, you know, it can almost feel like an inner drill sergeant that might be like, Well, yeah, actually this is what we're doing, and um, boom, boom, boom. Uh, and it can be really self-critical. Um, and I say that, you know, just to see that actually there is intelligence in that, you know, again, I think this can help with that compassion piece, you know. Actually, yeah, it's a really awful situation, is probably a big understatement. And actually, some of our parts, you know, our protective mechanisms, they are going to step up and be like, right, you know what, I'm gonna take charge of this. And sometimes those parts might be really critical. Uh, you know, they might be very perfectionist or very um, you know, wanting to push through or whatever it might be, you know, it'll come up differently for different people. Um, but I think sometimes recognising that, and sometimes we do need someone to sit with us and be like, yeah, you know, why are you being a bit hard on yourself? You know, and actually sometimes someone's just saying, that sounds really rubbish, you know, even if it is, I might not fully understand what you're going through, but I hear you, I'm listening. That sounds And yeah, I get that. But and also, you know, could could you be a little bit kinder? You know, could can I help you be a bit kinder? You know, is there anything I can do? You know, whether that's I'll just sit here and be with you, you know, we can feel a bit rubbish together. You know, it's not someone trying to fix. Um, because again, I think I think this is another thing that again is very understandable why people feel like it, you know, the standard medical model that so many of us are used to, you know, is about fixing, you know, oh, actually, if I get um if I break my leg, I have, you know, this sort of treatment and that fixes it. I'm using air quotes again. Um, whereas with this type of stuff, that's that's not really the case. And also sort of the connotation that we need fixing is that we're broken in some way and and we're not, you know, it's uh it's another way of being able to feel whole without dismissing that we're actually going through a really, really hard time with a lot of challenges that can be compounded by so much stuff, you know, widespread misunderstanding, uh, lack of care. You know, that I've not got enough fingers to go with, you know, all the different things. But and again, it will be different for different people. Um, so yeah, I think I think it is one of those things we can get curious about, you know, we'll probably never get it exactly right. I'm using the air quotes again, uh, but this is because there isn't really a way of getting it exactly right. I think a lot of it, it's like actually, can I work with building trust that it's okay to be a bit more human and that actually, yeah, this is this is how I can navigate it. You know, there may there's not a perfect way, uh, and how can I be as kind to myself as possible along the way? You know, and sometimes that'll be oh, I notice that I've been really unkind to myself, but also that's a protective part trying to do its thing.

When Helpful Habits Become Pressure

Jackie Baxter 25:44

Yeah, and I think you know, this this allowing ourselves to be human thing is possibly one of the most important things in the whole journey, isn't it? And you know, it'll, as you say, show up in different ways for different people, whether it's, you know, I have to be perfect, um, and therefore, you know, striving for all of that, which you know, we'll never achieve because perfectionism is impossible, um, you know, but we will keep trying to achieve, or it might be things like people pleasing or um not being able to show emotions, you know. I mean, how many of us have been told to just pull yourself together or grow up or you know, men don't cry, those sorts of things, you know, like the world tells us these things that it is, you know, it's not okay to be not perfect, or it's not it's not okay to be human and that we should constantly be. I mean, like every advert that you see on TV, right, is all about like what we should be. Well, what's wrong with how I am now? Kind of thing. And it's it's like, you know, how can we be more happy with what we have rather than striving for something more? And that's really challenging, I think, when we're unwell, because of course we're unhappy with what we have because we're unwell and our entire world has fallen apart and we can't do any of the things that we want to do. We can't even do the things that we maybe need to do, like work and wash and make food and things. Um, so it's really, really challenging, I think, in that sort of situation. But it's also if we've spent our whole lives trying to be more than, it's also something that it doesn't come naturally to us. And I think it's like it's got to be that balance, hasn't it? You know, coming back to what you were saying about, you know, you you find some things that help. And certainly for me, I did find some things that helped. And it was like, okay, amazing. This is great. And I then took it and I ran with it, not literally. Um, and I said, right, okay, you know, and overscheduled myself. So my whole day was mapped out with my breathing and then my yoga and then my this and my that. And you know, it was like this whole thing that had started out as I'd found a few things that helped me, had turned into this huge amount of pressure that I was putting onto myself. So I'd taken things that helped me and made them into something that didn't, that was putting additional pressure on myself. And then when things weren't getting better, so recovery had stalled, that was then my fault because I wasn't trying hard enough. Well, certainly that's how I felt at the time. And like I've seen this in people I've worked with, people I've spoken to, and from what you've said, it sounds like you have had some similar experiences. And like, how do we find a balance between motivating ourselves to consistently do the right things that help us? And that's obviously very individualized. Um, so finding the balance between that and not tipping over into the overscheduling, the pressure, the additional internalized crap that we put on top of ourselves. Like, how do we find the balance between the two?

Comparison Culture And Fear Driven Fixing

Amy Davies 29:01

Well, first and foremost, it is super tricky, isn't it? And I, you know, and I I work at this stuff all the time. I'm not sitting here saying, Oh, we know I've got this sorted, you know. I think it's hard. Nailed this. Yes. I don't think, you know, I probably never will. I think it is having that curiosity. And I think having that curiosity, particularly over time, in the beginning, it can feel like a very dedicated sort of practice. And often we need those dedicated practices of that, um, you know, things like meditation or self-reflection, but also over time it just sort of becomes a way of life, so it becomes something that you know we're not always consciously thinking we need to do. Um, but yeah, as as practical tips, I'd sort of say, you know, firstly, we we we can recognise, you know, this this whole industry is built on comparison. You know, if we think about marketing, you know, whether that's marketing over a car or an outfit that we need to buy or the latest supplement we should take, or um, you know, a certain exercise that we should be doing or something. And this isn't to knock, you know, some of these things, there's some, you know, really good stuff out there, um, but also, you know, just having that sense of, well, actually, um, you know, this is something that's been presented, it's very external. Um, and also we don't always know everything that's going on for someone, you know, we see so much of people. I think comparison can be a real tricky one. Uh, and our brains, you know, they like to compare, uh, but they do it um sort of the neuroscience of comparison uh often is where you know we see someone who's maybe where we want to be, and then our brain identifies the gap, and the gap is usually quite big because we're maybe seeing an idealised version of that person, or we've not got all the details. Or again, you know, that they're just working with a completely different set of conditions than we are, uh, or at a different point in their time frame. So, you know, comparison isn't always that helpful, and sometimes it can feel like pressure because we can be like, oh, well, I want to be doing that, and that feels so far away from where I currently am. Um, whereas that person might just have very different circumstances. So actually doing that thing or whatever it is is, you know, it's not an equal comparison as such, or also we don't see all the stuff going on behind the scenes, you know, we don't see all the hardship there, we don't see, you know, maybe how long that took and all the little um parts of the puzzle that sort of built up to that. Um, and even when people do um recount things, you know, um often how we talk about something um at certain points can differ, you know, sort of when you know, when we reflect on something that maybe happened five years ago or 10 years ago, within our personal experience, you know, it's still very true, it's still very authentic, but how we communicate that might be quite different, you know, sort of further down the road when we're not quite so in it. Um, you know, our levels of reflection when we look back on things when we've had a bit of space and time are quite different as well. Um so I think you know, to sort of pull it back in, I think a lot of it is how can we, you know, be curiously compassionate and notice actually, yeah, there's you know, there's a lot of things out there. Um there's a lot of marketing around things, whether that's conscious or unconscious, you know, like we're all supposed to be having the perfect life and doing the wonderful thing and being happy all the time. Uh, you know, even if you know, this isn't illness related, this is just social society as such. Whereas that often doesn't go anywhere near um touching what it is to be a human being, that you know, we'll all have hardship in different ways, we'll all have struggles, you know, life's not the constant happy state that it's almost presented as it should be, and also then that blame of oh, and it's probably because you're doing something wrong if it's not constantly like that, you know, if you've just optimised a bit more, or if you just did this or the other. Um, and this is a generalization. Um, but if it does resonate with people, you know, most people with fatigue-related conditions probably did spend years, if not decades, optimizing beforehand. You know, it often is people that have, you know, worked very hard, done a lot of things, you know, have been very kind and giving to people, um, have excelled, have pushed, you know, sort of those types of things. So um it can feel like, oh, well, actually, these skills worked in other ways. And, you know, I've I've sort of signed up for this ideal that, well, actually, if you just work hard enough, you get X results. And that can be, there can be a lot of grief in that as well. Um, that that doesn't show to be the case, you know, particularly when we get into these health struggles, and for other people it might show up in the different areas of life. Um, so yeah, I think a lot of it is building self-trust, you know, it can be almost how can I, you know, how can I maybe move away from some of the comparisons? How can I um arm the parts of me that are maybe like, you know, I need to read every piece of research, I need to try every single program, I should do every supplement, every test. And again, I'm not telling people not to do those things, you know, some of those things can be helpful, but to be able to pace ourselves and get curious around the intention around it, you know, is it is it very fear-based? Again, which is human if it is, uh, but noticing, you know, is it very fear-based or does it feel right? You know, and there'll often be, um, I sometimes speak to clients, you know, there'll be a few things that they're sort of like, oh, actually, the fear-based part of me wants to try absolutely everything. Um, if I sit with it and sort of support it and calm it and sort of question, you know, well, actually, if I tried one or two things now, you know, tried it out for a little bit, see how that goes. What are the things that are resonating with me now? And they'll usually be, you know, maybe a couple of things that resonate more than others. Um and again, you know, people can test it out and then they can test out something else if that doesn't feel right. Um, but yeah, I think I think it is that curiosity, you know, that self-awareness, noticing um, you know, actually what what does it feel like when fear is behind the wheel? Um, because um, you know, it's very understandable, you know, it's not knocking this. Uh, but also if we if we don't know that's that, we just think that that's the way it is, you know, we just think this is the journey, whereas we're like, oh, actually, you know, maybe maybe fear's behind the wheel at the moment, or maybe perfectionism is, you know, it can just sort of help loosen it a little bit, you know, where we might be like, oh yeah, so maybe that is helpful. Um, maybe I do want to try that, but maybe it's not quite as urgent as it feels in this moment. Um, and it just sort of opens up our options a little bit and it does give that space to be human, you know, to have that space of not being not knowing, you know, sometimes that's really tricky and it can be so so hard when most of us, you know, we have always been brought up, you know, if you're unwell, you go to the doctor, they'll know what it is, they'll tell you what to do, you know, there'll be a very clear plan. Um, and then something like this where that's not the case, you know, that's again, it feels like understatement at the century, you know, that's super, super hard. Um, so noticing, well, yeah, part of me will feel really alone, you know, part of it, you know, fear will want to take control, or you know, our inner drill sergeant, or whatever it is. Uh, but just having that curiosity, having that compassion, and giving it a little bit of space. Because when we are in stress states of whatever kind, urgency is a real characteristic of that. So everything can feel like actually, this needs doing right now, if not a week ago. Um, and that can lead to um, again, a lot of panic, a lot of urgency, a lot of doing, but actually just being able to create a little bit of space, you know, which sometimes might just be a few for a few seconds of ooh, actually, can I breathe out for a moment? Can I notice that you know, I'm being really unkind to myself right now. Sometimes that's all that we need, you know. We can't always solve these things, but actually, if we can slow things down a bit, you know, that's helping the nervous system move out of uh the threat detector level and just helping us see, you know, the different parts at play that might be actually, I feel like I've got to solve this by tomorrow. Um, you know, which why wouldn't we uh think that way? But also, you know, there's um people throughout the world have been, you know, it it's their jobs to try and work on this stuff. And um, you know, no one's got one exact answer yet, have they? So we can I I say that just to say, you know, we can reduce the pressure on ourselves as well. Um, and and there can be a lot of grief and hardship in that, you know, particularly when we are feeling really unwell. So a lot of it is sort of building that capacity to really sit with the discomfort and to get support with that when we need to as well, because we don't have to be perfect and superhuman and be like, well, I need to do all this by myself, um, or I've got to white knuckle sitting with all my feelings and you know, pausing, etc. Um, and then finding the things that do help and knowing actually, whatever we do, if we do one tiny thing, that's enough, you know, and we can build on that and it won't be linear, um, it can be more human. And I think just sort of coming back to that actually, it's okay to be a bit more human, and all of these tiny little things, in whatever way they resonate, whatever way we can carry out, um, will be helpful, and that can all just sort of help calm down that internalized pressure.

Control, Uncertainty And Finding Support

Jackie Baxter 40:01

Yeah, I think um for me there was a couple of things that you said that stood out. Um, and one was that it's okay to not know. And I think, you know, certainly for me, and I think again, a lot of people I've spoken to we are total control freaks and have been probably our entire lives. You know, have always been the one to try and be in control, in charge, because you know, if you need a job done, you do it yourself. And then suddenly we're in a situation where we have even less control than we ever did before. And I think, you know, certainly one of the things that have helped me is realizing that actually we have very little control over anything, even when we're well. Um, but when we're unwell, we have even less control. And, you know, so we will scrabble around and try to find anything that we can to hold on to because we're trying so hard to find something that we can control. And, you know, actually sometimes that isn't helpful. So that reminder that like it's okay to not have the answers, it's okay to not be in control. Um, it feels utterly terrifying, but it is okay. So kind of reminding ourselves of that. But I think the other thing that really struck me, which was something that I really struggled with, was the kind of um it's okay to start something and not continue with it. Because to me, that always felt like giving up. If I started something, I was damn well going to finish it. And actually, like, again, there's always a balance, isn't there? You know, if we stumble at the first hurdle, then we'll never get anywhere. Um, but at the same time, if we continue doing something that we know isn't helping, then that's not right either. So there's got to be a balance there. And it's okay, you know. I think for me, my kind of perfectionism sometimes shows up in that procrastination kind of thing where I say, oh, well, I'm gonna not do it at all because then I can't fail at it. So it's like that kind of idea of try out a few different things, see what lands, and then you choose the ones that feel the most right. So trying not to worry about the fact that they're not all going to be perfect. Oh, and I find that really hard.

Tiny Steps That Calm The Body

Amy Davies 42:23

It really is, isn't it? And also um just physiologically, a lot of the time we when we go in towards more sort of the overwhelm responses. Um, I'm sure a lot of listeners will have heard like about the freeze response or elements of the freeze response. Um, this is sort of that um almost a little bit like the rabbit in headlights, that uh type of feeling when we're like, I just don't know what to do, which is so natural, it's subconscious, you know, we don't choose this. But actually in that state, doing the smallest thing can feel so, so hard. Um, and you know, and that's on top of the symptoms as well. So actually giving your toes a wiggle, or you know, taking three breaths, or noticing that your blanket's really nice and feels good, that can actually do you the world of good. And that's probably the right level to work with because um any more than that can sort of add to that overwhelm, that free's response. Uh, and again, you know, there's different examples in different scenarios. I just give this as a very general one. Uh, so being able to maybe, you know, particularly when a bit of that is present, you know, that rabbit in headlights feeling or that feeling of, oh, I feel like I should be doing everything, but I can't do anything at the same time. It might be like, actually, how can I make this really intentionally slow and as simple as possible for myself? You know, what's what's one thing I might be able to do? And sometimes it might be like, absolutely, I'm just gonna have a little look around so that you know my body isn't in that rabbit in headlights um place. Um so um, so yeah, I think it is um it's just going slow. Um, I was really what really struck me when you were talking about control as well, and you know, hard relate as well, I uh put my hand up uh for this one personally. I think control is you know it's so incredibly human, um, and then that can get amplified even further when things are really out of control. Just as you said, actually, when we really sit back, and this is a really scary thing about just being a human, living a human life, um, we don't actually have that much control. And often, you know, our drive, we can almost think that the antidote for loss of control is to control more, you know, to have things where we can do that. Whereas I think bomb really it's often support, you know, actually someone saying, actually, yeah, I don't know either, you know, no one's got it all figured out, or actually, yeah, this is really scary. And I see you, and you know, I see that this is terrifying. And actually, I'll be with you for a little bit with that, you know, without without trying to fix it or change it or you know, strategizing the best approaches of how we could do this, that, and the other. You know, and I'm not, you know, there are there is a time and a place for that type of stuff. I'm not knocking that inappropriate doses. Um, but actually, you know, the the balm isn't often what we think it is. You know, it's trying to come out of that need to control, which might be like actually what helps me feel a bit more okay. And I use the word, really emphasized the word a bit. Um, you know, and sometimes that might be actually, yeah, I can just feel. my feet against the ground, um, or you know, I've got that, you know, looking at me adoringly. Um, you know, I've got a warm blanket type of thing, or there's someone that will sit here with me, or, you know, I listened to um, you know, a podcast like yours that you put out, and I can I can have a sense that, oh yeah, there's there's other people in the world that you know get similar things to what I've been going through, just to have that felt sense of okay, it's not all on me, because um I think often the need for control it can be when things are really uncertain, you know, that part can go into overdrive. And it's like, right, actually, if I just have the perfect strategy, if I just do all the things or whatever it is, uh, then that will fix it. And then rather than calming it down, it often amplifies it because we find more things to add to that list, or um we maybe start fixating a little bit on things um that um don't turn out to be so helpful. Again, you know, having that congestion, having that pause, and being like, okay, actually, what support can I find? Um I think that's often the bomb, but that's probably the last place our mind goes to. Or I know it can be for me, you know, until I sort of pause and like, actually, yeah, you know, maybe this means, you know, it doesn't mean that you've got to have all this stuff figured out by, you know, last week, uh, not even tomorrow. Maybe it's that you need to slow down a little bit, you know, maybe it's the opposite of what you think it is.

Closing Reflections And Key Takeaway

Jackie Baxter 47:40

Yeah. Yeah, I think um, you know, we've we've kind of talked around a lot of stuff, which is incredibly useful. And the things that I'm taking the most from what you've said is that when we are feeling that pressure, um, particularly from ourselves, the two most important things are taking that space and taking, you know, finding the little things, forget about the big stuff, forget about the control and all the shoulds. And actually, what is one thing that I can do right now that will make me feel, as you say, a little bit more okay, and you know, save the big things and the big picture for when you're feeling a little bit more okay. But in this moment, what is one thing that I can do? And I think we often forget actually that big things are made of little things, and the little things I think are often the most powerful because they're the things that we can do in that moment. So thank you for reminding me of that because I definitely get caught up in the whole perfectionism and control and all of that still. And as you said, sometimes just having a little bit of a laugh at ourselves can be a beautiful way to diffuse that. And I definitely do that often. Wow. Amy, thank you so much. I feel like we could continue for another hour and we would cover so much stuff, but let's leave it there because I think that's a beautiful point to leave it. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your experience, and your humanness, and for allowing me to do the same. Um, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Amy Davies 49:23

Thank you so much for having me, Jackie.