218 - Learning to Listen: Neurodiversity, Trauma, and Long Covid Recovery

We hear Ana’s honest recovery story, from a gradual slide into Long Covid to the moment her nervous system finally stopped treating everyday life as a threat. We talk through neurodivergence, trauma, hypermobility and the practical tools that helped her rebuild a calm, creative life. 

• The slow build of stressors that leads to a major crash 
• Hypermobility and why intense workouts can backfire 
• ADHD and autism discovery and how it reframes burnout 
• Tests, uncertainty and how fear can keep symptoms loud 
• Restrictive diets, supplement spirals and removing fear around food 
• Nervous system regulation using polyvagal ideas and body listening 
• Meditation with music, creative visualisation and breathing
• Trauma as unmet safety needs plus small experiences that stack up 
• The “spreading” practice and learning to handle activation 
• Returning to work slowly and dropping all-or-nothing thinking 
• Creativity as a recovery pillar and building a life that fits 

Links:

• Ana's Substack: https://becomingcreative.substack.com/
• Somia Heal: https://somiainternational.com/heal/ 
• Jackie's Insight Timer (as mentioned by Ana at the start) https://insig.ht/sT6iUelAR3b 
• Ed the Osteopath who Ana found super helpful: https://movementandwellbeingclinic.co.uk/about-us/#ed-madeley

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Welcome And Meeting Anna

Jackie Baxter 0:00

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long COVID podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by Ana, who is here to share her recovery story. So I'm really excited to dive into the story, what worked, what didn't, what life looks like now. And we're also going to talk a little bit about things like hypermobility and trauma and neurodivergence, which were things that came up when we were talking before. So things that I think a lot of people will be able to relate to in some form. So Ana, it is so nice to meet you. Thank you so much for being here today to tell your story.

Ana Osborne 0:38

Oh, it's lovely. Thank you for having me. Before we start, I just wanted to say that I what you have a meditation on insight timer, which is one of my favorite things to do. Makes me feel really nice.

Jackie Baxter 0:51

Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. We'll have to put the link in the show notes.

Ana Osborne 0:55

Yeah, yeah. You can really hear your journey in it. And like the things you say are just like exactly the things that you sometimes need to hear. So yeah.

Jackie Baxter 1:04

Oh. Oh, I'm thank you so much for saying that. Of course. That's amazing. Um, so yeah, how about um if you want to give us just a little bit of an introduction to yourself and maybe what life looked like before you became unwell?

Ana Osborne 1:22

Yeah, so I'm 42 now. Um, I'm married with two kids, um, live in Manchester, Northern England. Um I have always kind of like been an anxious person, quite kind of stressy person. Um and I got COVID in March 2022. Um, and I got uh really it was a really horrible infection. It wasn't bad enough to need hospitalization or anything, but it was really grim. Um and I got fatigue for about three months. Um, but then I recovered really well and was fine. Then a lot of really stressful things happened to me, and I kept pushing and pushing and pushing, and then in November 2023,

From Acute Covid To The Crash

Ana Osborne 2:18

it all came crashing down and I got very unwell. Um, and so I've been unwell for about two and a half years and kind of recovered, I would say, about just under a year, maybe, maybe maybe a bit less. So yeah, I'm quite quite early in my story of feeling fully well.

Jackie Baxter 2:39

Amazing. And it sounds like your sort of journey into long COVID was a sort of gradual slide rather than a kind of kaboom moment.

Ana Osborne 2:55

Yeah, yeah. And it's so interesting looking at what was different when I initially got unwell and how I got better, comparing it to when the the big crash came. Um, because when the um when I first got unwell, I was working for a really lovely employer. It was a charity working with learning disabled people and neurodivergent people, and the employer was so supportive, she let me have all the time I want, no rush to get back to work. Um, and I was in a really good place, and I managed to kind of make a recovery. And then the second time was we had a major house renovation going on. I had two young kids, I was just I moved jobs to another job, which was incredibly stressful. I was home-based, but working with a team in London. Very unsupportive line manager who did not give me any kind of wellness support at all. Um, and yeah, I'd kind of known that I wasn't right since the first infection. Like I still had like dry eyes, but you know, when you get dry eyes a lot, itchy eyes, uh light sensitivity, and I'd lost a bit of hearing in my left right ear. Um, so I knew that I wasn't quite right, but I just kept pushing, pushing, pushing, like of ridiculous things like getting an allotment, um, you know, and then I started putting on weight because I was working from home. Um, so I thought I'll just do a boot camp, you know, one of those intensive boot camp things. So I was doing these intense workouts three times a week, and like my nervous system was fried. So yeah, and also I found out later I was hypermobile, and actually these sessions were like the worst thing you can do to a hypermobile body, really. Um so yeah, everything kind of just came crashing down in in 2023. Um, and then I was really ill for about a year, probably, maybe a bit less, and then started to make slow improvements. And then recently, in like the last six to seven months, I've just thought I don't consider myself ill at all. Um, I just I there is a rehab process that I'm still going through, but in terms of being ill, I just just do not identify like that at all.

Jackie Baxter 5:17

And that I mean, and we'll we'll talk about this later on as well, that kind of moving out of illness that can be really challenging because you've kind of learned to be ill because because you are. Um, so everything you're doing is kind of supporting the illness, the ill body, what do I need because I'm sick? Um, and then moving out of it. It certainly for me, I found it very strange and and it was a whole different level of learning my needs and my body and everything. Um, but coming back to your your kind of illness, because it's probably worth talking through that first before we talk about the other end of it. Um, you know, you you said that, you know, there was a lot of stressful things that happened, um, your your job situation, you know, I don't have children, but I hear from others that do that they're quite demanding. Um taking care of kids is not not nothing. Um, you know, you you obviously had other things going on, you weren't quite right from the first time. Um, and you know, I think there's often this sense of like, oh, you idiot, like you should have known. And like I'm kind of hearing that a little bit from you, and I'm thinking, but how could you have known? Like, you know, in hindsight, maybe some of those things weren't great choices, but at the time they seemed like the right thing to be doing, right? So, you know, did did you kind of feel that? And was there some kind of blame that you had to kind of let go of a little bit?

Ana Osborne 6:54

Yeah, that's a really good point, actually. Yeah, definitely. How could I have known? Like, yeah, I thought getting another job was a really good idea. It was a in the creative writing charity that I and I love writing, I thought that was going to be a great match, and um, I thought an allotment would be great for us all, and you know, I was putting on weight and I wanted to get fit again, and actually I did get quite fit, but I also really damaged my body. So yeah, I did all the right things, really, that were wrong.

Jackie Baxter 7:29

Yes, and it's it's so interesting, isn't it? The things that we think are the right things, or possibly the things that society tells us are the right things may not always be the right fit, or maybe not the right fit at the right time. Um, but you know, we we don't know that at the time. And you know, I I think I fell into many of the same traps as you did, um, and in in hindsight, also thinking they were the right things at the time. Um now you mentioned at this time, in fact, it was one of the things that we said we were going to talk about was neurodiversity. And was this something you were aware of before you became unwell, or was this something that you learned about kind of through your illness?

Ana Osborne 8:17

100%, yeah. Um I had a sneaking suspicion about maybe ADHD, and like I've I've always so I hinted, like I've always been anxious my whole life. I'm always had kind of unhelpful patterns. Um, and I I did start to think about ADHD as a possibility, and I did mention it. I had CBT therapy because I found lockdown quite hard, and I found the birth of my first child really challenging, which in hindsight now neurodiverse women find hormonal shifts incredibly stressful. So, like pregnancy, adolescence, perimenopause, it's like a real car crash can be for neurodiverse women. So I'm really compassionate now about the fact I had

ADHD, Autism And Burnout Clues

Ana Osborne 9:04

a really hard time after the birth of my first child. Um, but at the time I thought I was just completely failing. I was like, why am I so anxious? Everybody else find it really easy. Um, and now, so it was it was because of being ill that I was properly and I went for an ADHD assessment, and the assessor said, You you present very strongly as autistic as well. Um, and I was like, Oh, that makes sense. And ADHD and autism together combined can be like somebody described it as the leading cause of burnout because you've got one foot on the gas and one foot on the brakes at all times. So, like the ADHD side of me loved partying and raving all night and hanging out with bohemian artists and being crazy. And the autistic side of me was like, no, what are you doing? You know, I want stability and routine and calm, and you know, so you're you're never quite meeting your needs as a person. So it it can be a really challenging combination. I say that with awareness that I'm quite mild on the spectrum, like I'm not very aware that there are people, you know, who have a much higher up on the spectrum, and it's life is immeasurably harder for them. So yeah.

Jackie Baxter 10:25

And your description of that, it feels like, you know, you said that that your needs are kind of opposite almost. So it sounds like it would be really hard to meet both sets of needs at the same time. And you know, it's it's very interesting for me because I don't have any diagnoses. But one of the things that I have started to learn about myself is that I fit somewhere in somewhere along the same lines. And as you just described those kind of two different sets of needs, it's just made this massive light bulb go off in my head as well. So you've just blown my mind. Um and uh am I right about that kind of being two very separate sets of needs and it being really difficult to meet them both at the same time? And if that is true, like how do you do that?

Ana Osborne 11:14

I know, I know it's so difficult. And like I think it also makes it really hard to get a diagnosis. So I lucked out that my assessor, who was sought via the NHS, not private, that she spotted it. But not every assessor is going to be able to spot that, and especially in women as well, it's it can be really hard to unpick that combination. Um, yeah, but I am learning, I'm learning lots of really cool like tricks and tips and like how to get enough novelty in my life that my dopamine is happy alongside calm and stability and routine. So yeah, there's a continuing search for balance, but it's yeah, I'm getting there.

Jackie Baxter 11:58

Yeah, I love the way that you said that as well, this continuing search for balance, because you know, I I think you know, we can get better from long COVID. We can't get better from being human. Um, and that's one of the things that I kind of learned was that you know, we we can recover from long COVID or MECFS or you know, what whatever the illness is, but that is the start of the next journey, and that next journey is possibly exploring neurodiversity, or it might be working through other stuff, um, you know, whatever it is that you have in your life. And, you know, that kind of idea of of recovery from long COVID, meaning that you're fixed and perfect and everything is good and tied up with a nice neat little bow, um, was something that I had in my mind up until the point where it happened and I realized that it wasn't, it was messy and imperfect. And um, as a recovering perfectionist, I found that challenging in itself.

Ana Osborne 12:56

Yeah, it's so it's so difficult. Like I had a real barrier around going back to work. I was like, I can't go back to work until I'm perfect, and I've learned that actually working a little bit bit by bit and building it up is actually fine. And so all or nothing thinking as well is very common in in neurodiversity. So learning to let go of that all or nothing thinking is has been great. Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 13:22

Yes, yes, I have also experienced that. Um, and I think again, very interestingly, from what I understand, that neurodiversity, you know, in in whatever form it shows up, um, is a kind of risk factor for things like long COVID. Um, so a lot of people who already knew that they were neurodiverse ended up becoming unwell. But there have been so many people that have had diagnosis of ADHD or autism or um or certainly suspect, you know, having, you know, since becoming unwell. And it kind of certainly for me, it gives me an awful lot of validation about why my brain works in the way that it does and why certain things have happened, and why, you know, it's it's sort of understanding that means that I'm now less likely to get tripped up by those same things. You know, my brain is amazing. It's also my own worst enemy. So it's balancing that out, isn't it, by understanding where things might trip me up, and then being able to kind of step in and be like, oh, you're doing that thing again. That's okay, because I see you. Um certainly that's been kind of my experience. Um, so it's it's fascinating, um, but also, as you said, really challenging. Um, but I think you know, it's that knowledge is power thing, isn't it? I think, you know, if we understand things and are aware of them, it then means that we can sort of see them for what they are and and work to well work to work with them rather than against them, isn't it? I think.

Ana Osborne 15:08

Totally, yeah. Because there's a lot of stuff about the numbers of people getting diagnosed and like it being a drain on resources and stuff. And people complain about it sometimes, but I'm not asking for anything from anyone, you know, like all it's doing is giving me a way of understanding my neurology, exactly like you said, so I can now access proper therapy that is neurodiversity informed, that works really well. I've been doing CBT for years and it just wasn't doing anything for me. My brain just doesn't work like that. Um, but now I've got a therapist who is autistic in ADHD, and it's just so wonderful like to have the right support.

Jackie Baxter 15:48

So yeah.

Ana Osborne 15:49

Yeah.

Jackie Baxter 15:49

And again, it's that importance of feeling understood, isn't it? Um, you know, whether it's a sort of a long COVID, I've met my tribe, they get me because they also have long COVID. Um, or you know, this person understands the way my brain works because they're also neurodiverse. Um, or you know, in in whatever kind of amp you fit in, it's finding your tribe, isn't it? And being understood and accepted as well for who you are, rather than someone trying to fix or change you, which is really invalidating, isn't it?

Ana Osborne 16:26

Yes, yes. It's so healing to find your true self and yeah, you unmask a little bit, you know. Yeah, it's lovely.

Jackie Baxter 16:35

Totally, totally. I love I love that. Um, so what I would love to hear, you you sort of described your descent into illness. It would be lovely to hear a little bit about kind of when you started to find things that helped. Um, so what did that kind of like look like? What were the things that you found that helped? Maybe what were the things you found that didn't help? Because often we find plenty of things that don't work as well as the things that do. Um so what did that kind of look like for you?

Ana Osborne 17:09

Yeah, totally. Yeah, there's been a lot of trial and error, a lot. Um, yeah, and there were a lot of like really horrible symptoms like costochondritis, when you get pain in your chest and liver inflammation, pots, MCAS, like loads of stuff coming up that was just horrible. Um, and like

Symptoms, Tests And Dead Ends

Ana Osborne 17:32

swelling in my limbs after I exercised and or moved, not exercised, but walked. Um yeah, it was really horrible. And I that first phase of illness, I think, is characterized by lots of tests. Like quite rightly, the NHS wants to rule everything else out that's really acute. Um, so, but then that just makes your nervous system worse because you're even more on high alert. Like, um, so lots of blood tests and lots of sleep. I was just sleeping five hours a day sometimes, and like because the building work was still going on, I didn't have anything anywhere to go. I would just basically be in bed for four to five hours a day. Um, and now I know that resting isn't necessarily gonna help shift the dial. Um, but it was all I felt I could do at the time. Um, like I couldn't take my kids to school and it's only 800 metres away. I'd have to ask friends to help board them. Um, so yeah, lots of fear, um, lots of medical stuff. Um, but and then stuff that didn't help, like, oh God, so many everybody can make an online course these days, can't they? Um so somebody had made a histamine reset course. Um, because I started having lots of histamine reactions to food and things. Um, and I so I tried to do that, and it was the most restrictive diet in the world. It was like only grass-fed meat and vegetables, a few vegetables, and that was just a disaster. So would not recommend restrictive eating. Um supplements, things like that didn't help at all. Um, although some supplements there is a place for, but you I think you need to calm your nervous system down first before you explore that really. Um, so then the first shift, I think, was probably finding the Susie Bolt program, Rust Repair Cover, and doing the Fern course, which I would not say is a cure. The course is not a curing course, it's not going to resolve things significantly, but it was a great signposter to like these are the things that you need to look for. Um, this is what it's all about. And I was like, oh, okay. So that set me on the right direction to knowing that nervous system recovery was the best avenue to go down. Um, and it also introduced me to potato breathing with you, Jackie, which and I still love potato breathing today. I think it's great. Um and the dietitian was really helpful, Holly. She talked about kind of removing the fear around food. Um, so that was a really lovely,

Nervous System Tools That Helped

Ana Osborne 20:15

gentle introduction to what works and how to get better. Um, and yeah, so it did shift things a little bit. But I don't I it wasn't getting to the root cause of everything. Um, but yeah, that was lovely. Oh, and Susie also introduced me to Richard Hosseini, the meditation coach, and I've done three courses with him now, and I think that meditation approach he takes is energy healing, really like shifted a lot. And I think there's a lot of visualization involved in that approach. And I think I the visualizations I did about what my life would look like now have really helped massively.

unknown 20:58

So yeah.

Jackie Baxter 21:01

That's really interesting because I mean, you know, it you you can't put every neurodiverse person into the same pot because that just wouldn't be right. Um, but I have heard a lot of people who are neurodiverse say that they struggle with meditation and they struggle with visualizations. So that's really interesting that you found completely the opposite and that they were kind of a game changer for you.

Ana Osborne 21:26

Yeah, totally. And like I did do a meditation teacher training course, and I'd love to do it with some of my friends, but a lot of them have ADHD and they're like, I just can't, just can't do it. But Richard, like I think music is really important to me. I can't do mindfulness and I can't do it without music. So I need to have music and creative visualization. Um, but yeah, some people just can't picture stuff, but I don't have that issue. So yeah.

Jackie Baxter 21:54

So it is very, very individual, isn't it?

Ana Osborne 21:57

Yeah. It's the same with hormones, like Everybody loves to do hormone therapy and stuff, and it's like, but different women react massively differently to like yeah, things like HRT and things like that. So yeah, every there's there are there are no rules.

Jackie Baxter 22:14

No, it really is. Everyone is different, and it's finding your own path and what works for you, isn't it? Um totally. So that's interesting. So you said that all of those things they started to help and they pointed you in the right direction and sort of started to lay the groundwork, I guess you might say.

Ana Osborne 22:33

Totally, yeah. So I think that was like the beginning of the end in a way, because it was getting me out of a constant fear state and making me look for joy again. Um, but I was still pretty un, you know, pretty unwell as well, needing a lot of rest and doing things and then going straight back to bed. Um, but then I found the so a friend of a friend recommended the Samir Heal course, um, which and it just it was a friend who I never speak to, and she just happened to recommend it. And this woman was like, I'm now working again, I've got a great life, it's completely healed me. Um and she's now she now actually was pregnant, got pregnant afterwards to have a third child or fourth child, I think. And I was like, wow, that is an endorsement. So um I so I went in with a really positive attitude because I knew I knew it had worked so well for her. Um, and then I started doing it and instantly, like pretty much immediately, was like, this is amazing. Um, it's a really incredible, like really well-designed nervous system recovery course. So it's self-led, but there are also mentors you can talk to in a community. Um, and when I first saw it, I was a bit like, who are these Californian-looking, beautiful people? What do they know about chronic illness? And then it took, you know, you get to, it was my my prejudices really started coming in, but then I got to know them, and they're not Californian for a start. Um, and they Jen is led by Jen Mann and Carden Rabin, who are like experts in nervous system recovery, and they have both been ill themselves, and these are all the things that have helped them. Um, so it's a really lovely programme. So the first module, the first level, sorry, is a really gentle introduction into listening to

Trauma, Safety And Deep Healing

Ana Osborne 24:31

your body. So just tapping into what your body is saying. Um, and it's it's a really gentle way of just connecting back to your body again. It uses polyvagal theory, nervous system modifiers, uh a bit of IFS parts work, um, inner child healing, which comes later on once you've established this groundwork. Um, and then level two is like much deeper kind of trauma unpacking, interrupting unhelpful survival states. And it's kind of just it just switches the the conversation between your brain and your body and just replaces anxiety and unhelpful patterns with a more calming kind of relationship, and it's yeah, it's amazing.

Jackie Baxter 25:18

Yeah, and that's really interesting, isn't it? Because I think there were two things you said there. One was the kind of understanding the messages that the body is sending you, and I think initially they're terrifying, aren't they? Because you know, your body is screaming at you and you have no idea what it is telling you, and all it is giving you is pain and discomfort and terror. And you know, you you feel that, don't you? It's it's horrendous. Um, but as we start to kind of, I don't know if get a handle on it is quite the right word, but as we start to kind of understand a little bit about what's going on and why, then it gives us that kind of ability, doesn't it, to see them as messages rather than, you know, the most terrifying things that have ever happened to you, which they may still be. Um, so so that's really, really interesting. Um, and then the other thing that you were talking about just there was the kind of like the deeper kind of trauma work or kind of you know much, much kind of deeper level thing. And I would be curious as to what you think here, because I don't think we can make a blanket statement and say everyone has trauma. Um, but do you think there is an element of everyone needing to go a little bit deeper, whether you want to label it trauma or or something else? Do you think that does apply to sort of most people?

Ana Osborne 26:49

Definitely, yeah. And I think we need to get away from trauma as being a really scary word. Like it's especially for neurodiverse nervous systems, like trauma can be really the parameters are really shrunk. You know, your what might trigger you is is a lot less, it takes a lot less than more resilient nervous systems. Um and yeah, my needs just were often weren't met when I was younger. Like, I'm not blaming anyone. I don't, I'm very compassionate, had a very loving uh child, you know, childhood. My parents would do anything for me, but my nervous system needs were very different to some of my primary caregivers, and when that butts up against each other, it can create traumatic responses. Like you can be exposed to things that you don't want to be exposed to. And like, for example, I lived in seven different houses before the age of five, like, and I was born abroad and brought brought to England, and like I think when you have kids, you're taught that the stuff below the age of five is like really critical prefrontal cortex development stuff, and my life was pretty chaotic below the age of five, very like loving, but chaotic. Um, and when your nervous system develops, it just is constantly seeking safety, and I was just never quite sure how safe I was in the world, um, or kind of what was going on. So, yeah, I think trauma can be as it can be big T trauma or it can be like little stuff that builds up. So I was exposed to like a lot of stuff that wasn't catastrophic, but you combine them all together and it creates a nervous system that is always on high alert, always hyper-vigilant, always seeking safety. Um, and it's been so helpful, like really healing to kind of really get to grips with that. And I wish people I wish everyone could do it, because I feel like people who've got those kind of patterns, they either turn inwards on themselves or they turn outwards and hurt other people. And I think if everybody could experience the kind of the beauty of healing, the world would be a lovely, lovely place.

Jackie Baxter 29:04

I totally agree. I totally agree with you. Um, and I think that's a really nice way of putting it as well. And you know, you said that you know, you were you were a child in a very loving home and and yet you did not have that feeling of safety. And you know, I I think you know, we often talk about trauma being the big things, the physical things. And, you know, and they are, you know, let's let's be real here. You know, there's some horrendous things that happen to people and they are absolutely traumatic. But you know, it's that thing about just because something awful happened to someone else doesn't mean that this thing happening to me right now isn't also awful and isn't also affecting me, um, kind of thing. So, you know, smaller, you know, small tea trauma, um, you know, can have just as much of an impact on you as some, you know, one big thing versus lots of small things. And it's that kind of idea of not comparing, it's not one upmanship on who's got the more traumatic trauma kind of thing. It's actually what what is it that's going on in me and and how is is that something that I can start to work through? And certainly for me, I find kind of admitting that there was stuff going on under the surface was quite a huge step for me because I would have agreed, you know, I thought I grew up in a loving home and and all of those sorts of things. And it's not always that somebody meant to cause you harm. And in fact, they may even be, you know, utterly horrified at the thought that they might have done. Um, so it's not necessarily a deliberate thing. So, again, coming back to what you were saying about the kind of compassion and forgiveness and it not being anyone's fault, but also not denying how you feel, I suppose.

Ana Osborne 31:01

Totally, yeah, yeah. And that's has been really healing because I was quite angry in my 20s about the stuff I was exposed to. And like, and there has been some big T stuff in there as well, but and generational trauma, there's like a history of abuse in my family, which has uh impacted the people who were caregivers for me, and generational trauma can show up as well. There's like a study showing that people from the Irish diaspora are more likely to get these kind of certain types of diseases due to the kind of inherited stress of famine and oppression. And yeah, I just think it really does show up and it it really shows up in your mind-body connection. And if you don't feel safe, you're constantly seeking that sense of safety, and that is exhausting for any nervous system, really.

Jackie Baxter 31:53

Yeah, totally. So you said that you'd find the the uh the program that you'd worked your way through. Where where did you kind of go from there towards that kind of full recovery? Did you kind of finish the course and be like, everything's great? Um, or was it a little bit more of a process than that? What did that kind of look like for you?

Ana Osborne 32:18

Do you know what it literally was I finished the course and everything's great? Um, because it's it's a twice it's laid out as a 12-week course, um, but you get lifetime access. And it took me 15 months to do it. I did it really slowly and kind of might had periods where I just left it for a bit. I was a bit overwhelmed with healing and I just wanted to live. Um, and then I'd come back to it. So it took me a really long, and then I'd expand my life with the techniques I'd learnt um and kind of yeah, take time to do that and let it all settle. Um, so it took me 15 months to do it, but yeah, literally, I just reached the last module like this year, and it something major shifted in my brain. I don't, I I can't, I don't know how to describe it. One of the last practices is something called spreading, where you tune into tension and pain in your body and spread it throughout your system. Um, it's it's a lot more uh involved than that, but that's essentially the concept of it. And it was just this feeling of, oh, I can cope with parasympathetic energy, I can cope with it in my body, my body is able to hold it, so that means I can cope with anything pretty much because I know how to come back to homeostasis afterwards, and yeah, it was just this knowledge that was like, you know, you can cope with activated energy, you know you're resilient enough to do that, and your body is a large enough container to hold that. So yeah, that would that was the major shift, really.

The Turning Point With “Spreading”

Jackie Baxter 33:57

That's amazing, isn't it? And I guess you know, you you said earlier about the kind of fear around um symptoms or um activity or you know, everything, because everything is scary when you're unwell, isn't it? Um and it sounds like this kind of shift that you had there was where you realized that activation didn't have to be bad. And that actually, you know, this kind of idea of our nervous system is supposed to move through states, and it is supposed to then return back to that state of rest and digest. So being activated isn't a bad thing, it's actually something that's totally normal, so long as we then don't get stuck there and we return. And um, I love that idea of spreading. I hadn't come across that before. Um, but it's almost sounding like you're you're balancing it out throughout your whole body, so it's not overwhelming any particular part of you, and you're just able to kind of hold it.

Ana Osborne 35:02

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And that means that because uh the one of the biggest learnings, I think, on the journey, which I think you probably can relate to, is knowing that physical exertion isn't what's causing your symptoms necessarily, it's the stress and the nervous system activation around that exertion. Um, so like having to manage a spreadsheet is would send me to bed the same way. Walking down a road would, you know, and so yeah, learning learning first step was like learning your body is not broken. You don't, it's not like you have a broken leg and you can't walk. And so that's the first step, and then learning how to manage that activation so you can keep going.

Jackie Baxter 35:50

Yeah, and that that's so true about you know, different stressors having the same response in the body. Um, you know, you said a spreadsheet and a walk, um, you know, and and both of them could cause the same response. And this was something that I didn't understand until I became unwell. You know, I thought, you know, you got tired from running. The idea that you got tired from, you know, too many emails or, you know, the kind of cognitive load wasn't something I understood. And I found it really difficult to quantify while I was recovering because, you know, physical activity was a bit easier to quantify, whereas cognitive or emotional, even worse, because the emotional one was much more unpredictable. You know, emotions could come out of nowhere and suddenly floor you. An argument, you're out, kind of thing, you know, and you can't always see that coming. Um, but all of these things cause stress in the body, and you know, it's it's the kind of the body's response that is the the thing, isn't it?

Ana Osborne 36:57

Totally, yeah. Yeah, and it's not it's not saying that symptoms are are in your head because they're not, they're very real, very real symptoms, but they're caused by your body freaking out, you know, um, your brain freaking out. So yeah, and it's so interesting what you say about energy, like learning about energy through the meditations and things has been so fascinating. And so I had biofield tuning therapy as well, which also taps into your energy field, and that was I found that really lovely um and helpful, but also learning learning that energy is not a fixed state, you can you can get more energy by thinking about something positive and connecting with someone. So you might feel really tired, but then you go and meet a friend and you have a great chat, you get more energy from that interaction. So learning that energy is not a fixed state and it you can mould it is just been really helpful.

Jackie Baxter 38:01

So, this idea that there are things that give you energy and there are things that take away energy, right? Um, and uh yeah, that I I remember realizing that as well. And you know, again, it all comes back to our nervous system, doesn't it? It's like what nervous system state are you in? And you know, that is something that you can use and work with, or you can fight against. And like, spoiler alert, fighting against it doesn't work.

Ana Osborne 38:32

Totally, yeah. It's like what you were saying earlier about symptoms showing up. Like now I've got my toolbox. When a symptom shows up or I'm activated, I just be like, oh, this is fun, can't wait to work on this one, you know. And it's like a whack-a-mole, like it's it's it's really fun. And I don't, I don't, I think of it as a challenge rather than you know, a terrifying thing. Um, it doesn't happen very often now, obviously, but if it does, I know what to do with it and it prevents turning into like a big breakdown. I can just deal with it.

Jackie Baxter 39:07

Yeah, and I guess that comes back to that kind of you know, the end of long COVID is the start of the new journey, and the tools that you used in order to get well from long COVID are the same tools that are going to keep you well, and you know, that's that kind of uh process of you know, of learning about your body and listening and responding appropriately rather than ignoring, you know, denial, pushing through, covering up all those things that we to some extent um that were, as it turned out, not particularly healthy things to do. Um, but again, they they were what we knew. So, you know, it's when we when we know better, we do better. That's the the quote, isn't it?

Ana Osborne 40:00

Totally.

Jackie Baxter 40:01

Yeah. So you just touched on it a little bit there, but I would love to kind of hear what does life look like now?

Ana Osborne 40:10

Yeah, totally. Um, it's really good. It's really, really wonderful. Um, I feel like I've taken charge of my life for the properly for the first time, maybe ever. Um, and I'm I'm really grateful. Like I get really emotional talking about the good bits. I don't get emotional talking about the hard bits, but the good bits really move me. I'm like that judge on the pottery throwdown who always cries when he sees something beautiful. Um, because I feel like my life is really beautiful now, like it's it's amazing. Um so oh, actually, yeah, I should have talked about it earlier, but finding creativity was really, really important as well. Like I've I've always been creative, um, and I've always wanted to write my a novel and be a writer, and I was really suppressing that desire because I had to go and earn money and be a good girl. Um, so I've started writing again. Um, I'm writing a novel. I've written like the first third of it now. Um, and I found out today I'm long listed for an emerging writers award, which 2,700 people applied for. So that is really cool. Um, and I'm in a writing group with like published authors who I really respect, um, called Mothers Who Write. Um, so creativity is like a non-negotiable for me now. I've got a little fluorescent yellow notebook, which gives me lots of dopamine because it's all yellow, and it's got three columns in it, and one is work, one is writing, and one is health and home. And those are my three kind of pillars that I'm building my life on. And if I hadn't had that kind of visualization help as I was recovering, I don't think I would have built my life properly. Um, so yeah, it's been great. So I've started a freelance business to kind of doing freelance consulting uh fundraising for

Building A New Life After Recovery

Ana Osborne 42:06

charities. Um, I haven't set up a website or anything yet because my all or nothing thinking brain is gone now. So I'm just doing bits and bobs for friends of friends. Um, while I so I can earn a little bit of money. And actually, it's been really important for my recovery to get out there working again because it's been really good for my self-esteem and knowing that I'm really good at it and I can do it. So work writing and home and health and uh looking after my beautiful kids is just it's it's great. I'm so grateful. One of the nice things about recovery is just how beautiful the world becomes, like, and just the exhilaration of seeing things after you've been in bed for like months and months, and then rebuilding a life that is much more in line with what you kind of really want out of life, is is just really lovely.

Jackie Baxter 43:02

Yeah, I love that. And the picture you painted there just sounds I can see it in your face as you talk, in your expression, as you're so excited about it. It's the life that you want, and it's the life that you have built for yourself out of the kind of you know ashes of long COVID. And you know, it's it's a horrible experience to go through, but it really sounds like you've kind of come out the end and you're thriving. And it's a bit like the bit at the end of the Wizard of Oz when everything turns into colour, um, is kind of what I'm seeing there for you. And uh yeah, that sense of gratitude for everything because you're just so happy to be there, kind of thing. You know, it's it's a wonderful, wonderful place to be. And, you know, it's I think it's somewhere that can feel kind of impossible when you're still in the middle of your illness. And it sounds like that visualization that you did actually really helped you to kind of shape. The recovery and the life that you have now built. So that sounds like a really powerful tool. Um, so what I would love uh just to finally finish would be to say if you had like one piece of advice to give people who maybe are still stuck in that place of, yeah, well, it's great for her, she's recovered, but I'm still here, um, kind of um kind of thing. You know, what would you say to someone who's still there? Or maybe what would you say to yourself back when you were still there?

Ana Osborne 44:33

That's a really tough question because it's so nuanced, isn't it? There's so many things. Um one thing I will say that I've learned part of my autistic side of my brain is I love straight talking and I love it when people talk straight for me. And my the biggest leaps in my recovery always came when somebody really straight talked to me. So the one bit of NHS help I had that did work was an NHS long COVID therapist, and she was like, Why can't you walk? Can you can you go and do it? And then that led to me finding the tools I needed to walk. Um, and then my friend saying from the fern group, kind of saying, You know your body's not broken, like you're you're fine, you you can do this. And so having because people tend to be very careful around you when you're really ill, and that's that's great, but sometimes you do need someone to just give you a shake and just be like, you can do it. Um so I guess uh what um that boils down to is just not to listen to the fear messages um and try to kind of say hello to them and don't internalize them. Um yeah. And that mindset is just so important.

Jackie Baxter 45:57

Yeah, I love that because actually I'm thinking, yeah, there was someone that did that straight talking to me, and it was really helpful. So it's almost like finding someone you trust who you know is

Straight Talking Advice And Farewell

Jackie Baxter 46:09

always going to tell you how how it is, kind of thing. Um, I think maybe it's that trust that makes it important.

Ana Osborne 46:16

Yeah, if somebody like a GP had said that's really interesting, like tell them to do one, but um because it was a fern friend or you know, yeah, a long COVID specialist, I was like, yeah, you're right. Okay.

Jackie Baxter 46:30

Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. Anna, thank you so much. Um, it's been so lovely chatting to you. I feel like I've learned quite a lot actually from your story. And um, I hope it's been helpful for other people who are listening as well. Um, so we'll drop links to everything that you've mentioned in the show notes as well, if anyone um feels like they want to follow that up. And uh I can't wait to read your book, like when you publish it.

Ana Osborne 46:58

Very exciting, yes, hopefully. I've got like stickers, stickers on the fridge, like you are a writer.

Jackie Baxter 47:06

And you are. Um so yes, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Ana Osborne 47:12

Thank you so much, Jackie. Lovely to see you.