Ep 130 How Lynn went from Fibromyalgia Frustrations to Flourishing Part 2

Remember Lynn Larson, our brave listener battling fibromyalgia? She's back with updates on new challenges and discoveries. An inspiring shift in her career sees her move from retail management to procurement and accounts payable, a role that lets her tap into her love for crafting policies and training others.

Balancing a chronic condition like fibromyalgia and work is no easy feat, and Lynn's personal stories resonate with those who've felt the physical and mental strains of an office setting. She discusses the transition to a hybrid work arrangement, then striking out on her own to gain more flexibility and autonomy. Listen for valuable insights on maintaining work-life balance and the crucial connection between fibromyalgia and mental health. We'll also touch upon meditation and Tai Chi, practices that have offered solace to Lynn and others like her.

Embrace yourself - that's the core lesson we glean as we explore self-acceptance and find personal best practices when managing fibromyalgia. The struggle of feeling inadequate when compared to others who appear more physically active, the importance of accepting your unique abilities and limitations, and even the overlap between fibromyalgia and possible neurodivergence - we discuss it all. Join us as we navigate the complexities of chronic pain syndromes and highlight the significance of self-awareness in charting a path to wellness. Prepare to be inspired and educated on this journey with Lynn.

The fibromyalgia starter pack  categorizes the episodes in a way that is more accessible for those new to fibromyalgia.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:51

I'm excited to have Lynn Larson, who was a special guest. She's actually a listener of the podcast and somebody trying to live her best life with fibromyalgia, and she is one of the most popular downloads of the whole 2023, which is why we're having her back, and she also has reached out to me this fall and I thought, well, hey, let's get a follow-up, because there's some questions that were left out there and also some insights that we'd like to have her bring to the show. So welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Well, thank you for having me back.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Awesome. So what kind of things have you gotten? A chance or thoughts that you've had since being on the podcast earlier in the year, which, by the time this goes live, will be over seven months ago.

Speaker 2: 1:45

It's kind of ironic because when we first connected through the podcast, things had been going fairly well and I would say, come summer I started to have more flare-ups and I thought, oh, this is new, of course. I just did a podcast interview where I, you know, basically made things sound pretty rosy and now I've just had more trouble with muscle spasms. You know that absolute intense tightening of my muscles that gets to the point where you know get these spasms and can hardly take a step without yelping and pain. Fortunately it's not every day by any means, but I have discovered that that was coming on and I was tackling that issue throughout the summer and I have found different remedies for managing that. There's a program called somatics. I don't know if you're aware of that.

Speaker 1: 2:45

You had mentioned that, I think briefly off the air last time.

Speaker 2: 2:49

Right, right. So somatics you can find it online at somatic movement center has to do with trying to retrain the brain to release muscles and muscle tension, and if you do it consistently I find that it is very helpful. So it's just another new wrinkle. You know, again you think you got it all down pat with the, with the fibro stuff and managing it, and then new things arise and you have to find new solutions.

Speaker 1: 3:18

Yeah, well, one of the things that I was wondering about, and other people, is you shared on the first interview that you had, kind of on your own, found your way from a job coming out of college working in retail as a management of very poor match with your strengths, but you mentioned that things had been going better as you found your way. But what actually is your job? What is that career path that you found to be more your calling?

Speaker 2: 3:54

Well, and I think I indicated in that first interview that getting out of the retail management world was necessary just because of the exhaustion factor that I was experiencing at that time, and then found my way into more of an office setting. I got into the field, kind of within the realm of procurement, and accounts payable Sounds exciting, doesn't it? But you know, I guess, having a mind for detail, that was a good setting for me. And what probably worked the best is I was writing policies and procedures. I was doing training of people. You know I like doing that. It allowed me to improve something in the job place and it was like I was handed this program and was told go ahead and make it better. And so I loved that aspect of it. And so I was in that field and I had worked for a couple different organizations, the first one being quite large, and then I ended up moving to a smaller one. But even through all those years, I mean, I remember times coming home at the end of the work day and just needing a nap. You know it was intense to be in an office all day long and interacting with people and so forth. So then, when I had moved to that smaller company. Then you know, even before it was the thing to do, I was in a hybrid work arrangement where I was in an office a couple days a week and then worked from home a few days a week, and that worked much better for me. And then, even when I was in the office those couple of days, I kind of rigged up my own sit stand desk area, because it's really hard for me I think I mentioned this in the spring very hard to sit for long periods of time. So I just use a combination of boxes and books, you know, to raise up my computer and I would go back and forth between standing and sitting, and certainly in my home office I do. And so, yes, no, I know there's a lot of choices now. So that's one thing I would recommend to anyone, you know, with fibro or any sort of aches and pains get yourself a sit stand desk so you can go back and forth. You know, but even with that hybrid arrangement, I mean it got to the point where I was really trying to figure out you know what's next. The company I had been with every year hosted a very large conference, and so you know it was something. I mean it was a great thing but I almost dreaded it because I hated the expected networking and socializing. You know I hated walking into a big room of hundreds of people and you know I was expected to schmooze and, you know, talk to people and whatnot and that was just incredibly difficult for me and it would just drain all of my energy. And every year I was doing training of a group Might have been 15 people, might have been 50 people in the class, and again I liked doing that. But after, you know, a full day of delivering a workshop, I mean again I would just be completely exhausted. And then it was after these big, big conferences. I would typically get sick the week after and maybe that was from the exhaustion, but then I would have a really bad cold and spend several days, if not a week, kind of recovering from that. So it got to be about 10 years ago. I decided to just establish my own business in the same field you know relates to accounts payable and payments in the business world, and so I've been doing that now for about 10 years and working on my own. Obviously there's pros and cons. I've been fortunate that my husband has the traditional job and so I could really take this business of mine and kind of work as much or as little as I wanted or needed, and certainly bringing that all to my home office where I had all my creature comforts, where I could, you know, take an hour to exercise or move about, you know, whatever it was to manage my health. It has been tremendously beneficial. But then, as I indicated even just a few minutes ago, even with all these great things going on, I'm still finding that the fibro is flaring up from time to time. But for the time being, I'm sticking with what I'm doing because it generally has worked for me, just sort of a part-time consulting thing where I'm doing online content, you know, writing, doing blogs, participating in other companies, podcasts, delivering training virtually or in person.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Awesome. So it sounds like you have gotten into a niche that really hits your strengths really well and have been able to, when you were in a situation, use those desks or at home now, where you can stand, and you have the flexibility and that autonomy. On the last episode that we talked about this overlapping mental health, identifying with the good doctor and some of these things that are now in that neurodivergent spectrum Any thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 9:23

Lots of thoughts. Let's just take the straight mental health aspect. Setting aside for a moment my quirky traits, I think that the mental health aspect of fibro can rear its ugly head on many occasions. My spouse is into some extreme sports and so, where he seems to just get more fit and more ambitious as he ages, I feel like I'm just getting more quieter, quieting down, moving from more high impact things to the Tai Chi and to some other practices that have more to do with meditation and really centering oneself. You can get into yoga, whatever it is. So it's hard sometimes to you feel like you're almost the 80-year-old where your husband's off doing a bunch of athletic things. So that can be hard, and I guess the remedy to that is just realizing I just have to be me. I'm not going to be somebody else, I'm not going to be a big-time athlete. I know there are people with fibro who can do that, and maybe if it were 20 years ago I could have, but not now, at this stage. I'm in my mid-50s, so it's a matter of self-acceptance. That's the bottom line as to what I would label it finding just what works best for me, being accepting of me, of my abilities, and not trying to keep up with everything else that someone else might be doing. So there's that part of it. But it comes back from time to time where I feel like I'm a downer because I'm not running the marathons or doing some of those extreme things. But I have to accept who I am and what I am and so to go along with that. Yeah, you mentioned, you know, we talked last time where I was watching ABC show, the Good Doctor, and I could see some of those quirky traits that he has. I was identifying with some of those and it's the organization aspect, it's the love of routines. It's not liking when my routine gets thrown off. I mean, you name it. It's just everything is structured and done a certain way and things are in their place. And you had me take. How do you pronounce that?

Speaker 1: 11:37

No, it's an acronym. It's R-A-A-D-S, the RADS test for autism.

Speaker 2: 11:43

RADS. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I went out and I took that just out of curiosity and I scored what it was. It was something that said, well, yeah, you certainly could be on the spectrum, but there are neurotypical people who score the same way I did. So it sounds to me like it was a little inconclusive and could go one way or another. The thing with that RADS test it's the way it's structured is, you know, you're checking off true, like true now, true when you were a kid, and now, or never, true I wanted to see. Often true, sometimes true. You know it was all or nothing, and sometimes I would pause and go well, I don't know, is it, do I say yes to this or never? But in any case, you know I took that and that highlighted some things that I had wondered about. You know it covered things like being highly sensitive to, you know, foods, to clothing. You know, I guess some of the other statements that made me stumble when they use the word extremely or highly, again, that would give me pause. Maybe that's because I'm too literal. You know that's part of that test too. Talking about taking things literal, I thought, well, I wouldn't say I'm extremely X, whatever X was, but I am, and so then I would sit there and start to analyze the question. So I don't know if that put me right in the spectrum or not.

Speaker 1: 13:12

Well, you know, and I'm learning about these as a doctor, as I've mentioned on the podcast this fall, and that's part of what prompted when I had the interview with Barry Prasant of uniquely human and you had emailed me and said I spelt his name wrong in the show notes. Thank you very much. I'm using AI at times for show notes. I'll complain on the computer and, being a busy and it was spelt and thanks for catching that, and then we're just chatting and had a good talk on the way home. The score you had was 105. And from what they said, is that no neurotypical score over 64 from that.

Speaker 2: 13:50

So it's in that range, it can go up to 200.

Speaker 1: 13:53

And by the time this has gone live, I will have talked at the Fibromyalgia Care Conference online and talking about the connection with neurodivergence, particularly autism and ADHD, with chronic pain syndromes and fibromyalgia, and we're finding that many people have those. It's that hypersensitivity to things, it's that need for routine and if things aren't in the right connection and you aren't in the right social environment with the right job spouse, and know that you've said in a very lighthearted way oh God bless my husband, and so that means like well, he's giving some supports. You didn't use a curse word and if you must be having a supportive husband over the years, that goes. I don't know. This is the only wife I know.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Well, and I think too, by the time you get to middle age I mean I said it to you maybe on a one off phone call where I think I've just learned to adapt, you know, I've realized how to kind of curtail myself or rein myself in. In certain occasions I've learned in social environments the best way to kind of get past the awkwardness is just to start asking questions of a person and to get them talking, and then I don't have to do a lot of talking or find someone who isn't like in the middle of the crowd, but I can talk to someone one on one who might be on the fringes at a big conference, for example. And so there's adaptive behaviors that I'm sure I have just developed over the years without realizing it. And so now, at the age I'm at, I think that I have managed to blend in, so to speak. But when taking that rad's test I could clearly see where, oh, yeah, okay, yeah, this is me. I've just maybe learned how to manage it at this stage of life. But that was interesting and you brought up how I told you you had a misspelled part of one of your episodes. I just finished reading a book and I realized when reading this book there were at least four errors and I ended up emailing the publisher to say do you know, on these pages there are these errors and this is what it should be. They actually replied. They said we'll send that off to the editor.

Speaker 1: 16:07

Well, as I'm learning more about this and recognizing this in the adults, I think it's quite common and to actually especially in women, which interestingly we think of autism spectrum as being predominantly boys and and some men as we get older. But we recognize that most adults and I think the tip of the iceberg I'll have had on my slides that I'm making now at the time of the recording this classic iceberg picture, and the top of the iceberg above the water is fibromyalgia and related symptoms like migraines, ibs, chronic neck pain, back pain, all of those. But below that are the often that neurodivergent, the ADHD autism spectrum, which usually are not recognized by clinicians, by medical care team, and it's not recognized by the patients because they don't even know that this is a thing that's existing. They have a very typical stereotype of what it looks like and I don't have it now because I'm a pediatrician and an internist and I have an interest in just helping people and I never believed in hypochondria and, as we understand, this is a different way of perceiving the world and then hearing stories and listening to stories and reading more about this is just having empathy. So it's not uncommon that I have now a patient who actually comes in with one of these central pain syndromes, which is that hypersensitive central nervous system, to just ask and sometimes it's just asking now like hey, have you ever wondered, especially if they're a little bit younger, that you might, but they're an adult or older you know college routine that you might be on the spectrum in some way? And it's not uncommon, because of social media, that people may say, yeah, actually, that's funny. My Instagram has been feeding me more of these things about being on the spectrum. You know about autism or you know YouTube, so it's one of these where, oh, technology recognized it before the yeah, the doctor doesn't recognize it and so part of it is is not to pathologize it, but it can cause a lot of distress if you are not getting the round pig in the round hole and if you don't have the right environment. And then if you go oh, as I think we mentioned when I was driving home and talking to you on the Bluetooth that distress for you going to these conferences. But one way to dampen that is make sure you don't take the 7am flight if it's to go to the conference. If you're flying, make sure you get the 12 o'clock so you're not getting up early and mess with your sleep. Preferably go for a workout in the morning if you do that nice brisk walk or something that you need. So you get on the airplane and maybe walk in the airport, make sure you have a pack of healthy salad, because you're eating a plant predominant diet, and make sure you have oatmeal for breakfast and then the morning of the conference, make sure you get that workout in so that you can help turn down that intensity of the nervous system so that you can handle that.

Speaker 2: 19:12

Oh, absolutely, and even to the extent. When you're talking diet, my coworkers laughed because, as we would prepare for these conferences and I always had a lot of supplies to ship for hosting the conference I always had a box of food. So they knew that part of the shipment was Lynn's food box, because we were there for several days and I would have all my healthy snacks put in there. It would be too much to be bringing on the airplane or in a you know my even checked bag, so there they would be, shipping Lynn's snacks. It was just part of the packing list, exactly. And so, yeah, you really have to find what works for you. I agree with that, with flights, with everything, with eating, the exercise, and this is where, for me at least, travel while it can be great, of course also it takes days for me to prepare to travel because you know you bring all the creature comforts, you know, healthy snacks you have. Well, I've got like little stress balls, all the things that try to, you know, ease the aches and pains that might arise, especially when you're flying or on long car rides. So it's a big production to get me out of the house for an overnight thing, whether one night or five nights or whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 20:22

So what is it the? You bring a stress ball.

Speaker 2: 20:27

Well, I've got I mentioned, you know, on that first interview we did that those little blue toe-la-point systems, those plastic things you know, with the different tips, and I use those. But I also have one of those balls just from REI that has little kind of spiky things on to help massage the foot you know, massage foot both the size of a tennis ball and I might just bring a tennis ball too. So there's that, it might be a cushion to sit on, you know, to try to get the right ergonomic posture when I'm on a plane or even in a car. I've got one in my car full time. It's just all those little things. It's like I don't fit in regular cars or regular airplanes. I have short legs and so then inevitably my legs are dangling and that does not bode well for pain, you know. That definitely can bring on flares. So I have to kind of rig up my own seat. I mean it's quite something. I mean I'm telling you it's like the Goldilocks thing this one's, you know, too big and this one's too small, and I have to really work hard to make myself comfortable, whether it's in a home office, in a car, in a plane, you name it.

Speaker 1: 21:38

And now you know that. Oh, part of this explains why I have this and there are things that you can do to affect it. And speaking of going on trips, I had a recent patient of mine who's really had some struggles. Unfortunately, the social environment that she's in work, home, stress, etc. Makes it challenging. She went on a trip to Panama, had a great trip and she's like my fibro. It was like practically nonexistent, walking in perfect temperature without this stress and then coming home to the cold midwestern weather that we had a couple of weeks ago and now continue to have. It's even going to be colder by the time this goes live at the end of December. That, wow the environment can almost like a Jedi force field. Walk into that conference that could be completely quiet the day before as you might be setting up with very low stimulation and be fine. You walk in doing the exact same number of steps the next day with a thousand people or whatever. They're 500 or 500. Yeah, and can you talk to that?

Speaker 2: 22:48

Well, I figured out that some of those big events were just very hard and even though I enjoy certain people and want to connect, by the end of the day and when I mean end of the day I mean more like that five o'clock time people were getting together to go out for the evening and there were times where I just had to say no, no, I really need to get my sleep, and so that was the hardest part. But yeah, walking into a room of 500 people, it's this intense energy just overwhelms me. And I've had the same experience even doing fun things Like being on a vacation with girlfriends and we've gone to a winery and we pull into the winery parking lot and it's full of cars, people everywhere outside, inside, you name it, and I really have to mentally prepare for that and it's almost like I will put up. You know blinders I try not to take in an entire space that is just full of people. I try to narrow my focus and just zero in on, zero in on. Okay, let me go talk to this person or let me just be very focused, just try to block out all the energy and all the people all around me, because it's too much. Like you know, it's just like I can't go into stores like home goods. I know lots of people love to shop at home goods. It's too much, there's too much stuff, you know. So even if they have great stuff and great deals, I can't do it. It's just, it's almost like it's chaotic to me and it's just too much. So I have to just minimize things, and that goes along too with minimizing clutter and you know, just really being intentional about talking one-on-one with just one or two people at a time.

Speaker 1: 24:36

That reminds me, if I'm not training.

Speaker 2: 24:37

you know I can speak, do public speaking, and that's not a problem, but it's the social stuff that I have to narrow in.

Speaker 1: 24:44

You had a story, yeah, I was just at a couple of patients, that one of my patients who has a diagnosed with ADHD and what's, having struggles and has a daughter who's in middle I think early, like maybe fourth grade or so, who's just diagnosed with ADHD and being on the spectrum as well, working in sales and management. Yet he says, when I go to a social gathering, a mixer or whatever, that you would expect it. He says I try to find somebody I know and I try to connect with that person and he has to, as part of his job, go to these. And yet and he's very good at analyzing things and putting things together, yet gets stressed at having to organize things. So likely is also likely on the spectrum, which does, when you look at family history, as likely one of your parents, and when you look at grandparents as you go down the tree going, oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 25:47

That's so true. I mean what you're describing.

Speaker 1: 25:50

Yeah, and so you know another patient of mine was sharing who on the spectrum with ADHD, who had been to many doctors and his job, kind of like you, is an analytic job, which I think it's really like skip the emotion, let's make a decision on true data. Let's not get soft, let's be really on something hard and objective and I right or wrong, and you might take longer to be meticulous, but you're going to be right and recognizing. Well, there's a lot of blessings to having this style of brain and thank goodness there are people. If you haven't gotten a chance to read NeuroTribes, that is a great book I read at this summer and it talks about the history and you look at so many successful people like Tesla and Cavendish, one of the chemistry going back to the 1800s who was misunderstood, and so many other people along the way, and it just talks about the history and understanding and then recognizing that, oh, these are differences and if we can kind of support people and understand and asking, well, why is somebody having an autistic letdown? I will be having in January an episode series on Rosemary Kennedy, who highly likely had both. She had chronic pain issues but also had likely was on the spectrum and also had ADHD and unfortunately she was given a frontal lobotomy because when she came back from Europe she had what we now would cause autistic burnout and a shutdown and people didn't know that and it was weird 60 years ago and so unfortunately it was embarrassing when you're a high class family to have somebody who doesn't perfectly, it was kind of quirky and weird. So it's really understanding and serving and hopefully hearing your story of understanding like how do I live with this? You found this out without even knowing there was a label. You kind of called it Lin's disease. Looking back, if you didn't hear my interview with Dr Mel Hauser, she called it all the things. I just had a recent new patient of mine who was struggling with some things that were on the central sensitivity syndrome, new to me not getting too many details for privacy but she said I have all these things wrong with me and I'm like, oh, you took the words right out of Dr Mel Hauser and I said, well, I have a podcast episode and I said, oh, no, no, you don't have all the things. You have one thing and it's called all the things and these are all connected. And when you look at research, a study showed, about 60% of the people had one of these central sensitivity syndromes, had them. So I think a lot of people are not even aware of these and that's why getting this out there, to have this recognition, and then you go oh, it's not an invisible battle, it's something that I have, and now how do people work the best with it? So, if you're able to, can you give some things for the people out there who may be like you, except they have not by chance found and I won't say by chance, but by opportunity and whatnot, have not found a more ideal environment, social supports for those listening, maybe, to finish off those listening, any thoughts that in how to work the best within this style of a brain and nervous system, so to speak.

Speaker 2: 29:29

Well, I think you know I'll try to boil down, you know even what I've shared already that if you are faced with a big event where you are expected to participate in some fashion, just try to zero in on, even if it's someone you don't know. But it's more comforting if you find someone you do know to connect with and socialize with. But I don't know. In my case I do much better almost being a facilitator, you know so, in the workplace, wise, or even in a social group. If I really have to go up to a group of people, I mean I will have kind of things mentally in my head. If it's a business conference, I know I can ask certain business questions to get the group talking and then I sort of turn into a facilitator. You know oh, tell me more about that. Or you know you just, if I can be in that position, that's easier than just plain old socializing. Well, I guess you have to be tolerant to others. I mean, you know you have your own quirks, but not everyone is like you, and so I think you just have to figure out how to work with others who are not as structured, and because I'm in one of those situations as well, I'm a participant or a board member for a nonprofit organization and just recently we were going through the next budget, next year's budget, and they dive in. There are a lot of more creative people, opposite of my structure and my methodical tendencies. They just dived right in and, you know, looking at different budget aspects, and I was like time out. Whoa, whoa, whoa, where are you? You know, to me you're supposed to start on line one and you're supposed to work your way through it, and they were going from one line, one page, to another page and my head was spinning and I, finally, I just had to communicate. Can we just slow down and do this step by step? So I think sometimes you have to advocate for yourself. You have to really tune into what works for you or doesn't, but recognize that it's not always going to go your way. So you do have to be tolerant of others, but prepare. You know it's like I described bring your gadgets, bring your notes if you need notes before you walk up to someone. At one point I was even taking notes on certain people. So then the next year, when I would run into them at a business event, I would look at my notes in advance. And then I could say oh John, hey, how was your daughter doing last year? You talked about X and then again you're just getting someone talking, but you had something planned in advance. So I don't know. Preparedness I'm big on preparedness, you know, know what you need, prepare for that. But then also you have to try to be adaptable.

Speaker 1: 32:09

And what about?

Speaker 2: 32:10

That's my best advice.

Speaker 1: 32:12

And as a lifestyle medicine doctor, maybe finishing with the role of diet and activity slash exercise for you.

Speaker 2: 32:19

Oh well, yeah, it's just like I said. I mean, I knew that at the conference I would seek out. You mentioned oatmeal. That's exactly what I would do. Most of these events would have some of these more healthy options, at least the ones I've gone to. I know it's not always the case, but otherwise I'm bringing my own snacks. I am ensuring, even if I'm not traveling, just in my car, I have my own snacks so I don't show up like at my mother's house to say, oh you know, what do you have here? I'm hungry. You know, I have my own own snacks. I always have water with me, you know, in the car, you name it. It's getting up and moving around, it's getting those walks in, even on a day in and day out basis. If I'm not up and doing a morning walk, I know that it negatively affects me. So again, I've had this down to a science, having a fibromyalgia now for a couple of decades. I definitely know what I need to do to handle things better. Also trying to adhere to sleep, you know, trying to be consistent about it, not only the number of hours but when you sleep. But diet's huge. If I don't eat the right foods, then also I'm not feeling optimal. And when you're not feeling optimal, then you know what happens and it affects your mood, it affects your interactions with people, and so you know it's prioritizing too In my mind. I know that sleep is number one, because if I don't have some decent rest, you can't always control the quality, especially with fibro. But if I don't get my rest, that affects everything else. So I prioritize and then you have to make decisions based on your priorities. You know, if someone says, oh, let's go to I don't know, let's take the diet, go to some restaurant, and you know that you need healthy foods, well, stick with it. Don't eat something rich that you'll regret later. So you have to prioritize things and just be consistent.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Just one thought too for many people, and it's on the fibromyalgia impact questionnaire. How difficult is it to go grocery shopping? And for many, as I look through a lot of those questions, that's like going to a meeting of you know makes home goods look like nothing because you have so many more choices to pick from. And then, with now, the advent of ordering online and grocery pickup, it's like you know what don't even have to go in the grocery store. You can just pull up the parking spot number three and they'll bring it out, and instead you could maybe have had an extra 45 minutes to go for a walk and whether you have to pay extra.

Speaker 2: 34:46

Well, that's what I do with my wine orders. My wine orders. I pull up and have them put it. I buy it online and put it in the trunk. No, you bring up a good point, though. The grocery store doesn't overwhelm me because I keep a very specific list. I have very specific criteria as to what I will buy or not buy, based on the nutrition label, and so I just know I stick with the fresh produce. Then I know I have it down to a science so I can just go through the store. I do not buy like pre packaged cookies or or you know some of those other You're.

Speaker 1: 35:22

you're on a mission convenience foods. You know what you're getting.

Speaker 2: 35:27

I mean I have exactly and I've set it up. If I'm going to buy a frozen lunch meal and I don't do that very often, but if I do, I know that I won't buy anything that has more than 600 milligrams of sodium and then I have. I mean, I look at all those little details and I have my limits and I stick with those limits. I know, see that then that feeds into that autism spectrum. Well, but I've got my limits. And people will go ahead and say, people will say you know, how do you stay healthy? And and I say, well, it's, I have my, my limits, I my criteria and I just stick with it.

Speaker 1: 36:03

Yeah, it's interesting. Everybody's unique when we come to the world of fibromyalgia as unique challenges and in that world and just looking at the opportunities and the more you look at all these are just things. The I think the title of this podcast episode is going to be learning to live with fibromyalgia is living on a narrow bookshelf between two bookends part two because it's just having that understanding and that's part of that structure and how that brain works. I know that I was learning the things I just got on, got gotten done, interviewing Dr Milhouser and learning more about this and I'm like, oh, that's interesting and I'm not your doctor and you're just a listener who had replied to being on the podcast sharing your story and I think that your story is going to help people who are living with it. It's going to be helping other people who are going through this. So the person who I saw recently who had all the things well, her husband was there and interestingly, she's like I don't think I'm on the spectrum and I just I said, well, do the rads, there are a couple things, but getting overstimulated in a bigger group environment versus working one on one, well, that when when she had a couple episodes and often you don't know and it's often we think of oh, that's a terrible thing, this is this pathology. I don't want that. You have a disability and it's like. No, it's just a difference in how the brain works, and if we can help optimize that, that would be great.

Speaker 2: 37:30

Well, I was just going to say I think the hard part about all this is when you are fighting fibromyalgia, symptoms like fatigue, and then your brain, in its OCD or autism spectrum realm, is wanting to, you know, clean something a certain way or declutter, and they sort of butt heads, and so then you have to figure out which one's going to win. Is that the tendency of the brain to say, I have to declutter, or is it the fibro fatigue and you need to go rest or take a walk? So you know, I think your patients might have that battle.

Speaker 1: 38:02

And I think there's often a very common double edge sword, so to speak, is that most people who have autism also have ADHD. So they, by nature, are disorganized and have a hard time organizing. Yet at the same time, they're distressed by disorder called clutter. So they're not great at wanting to take the time to organize, to clean the kitchen and organize this, yet it's stressful if it's not done, and so that can create this dynamic that, oh well, I didn't know that. But if we can and if somebody does have ADHD, the medications can be very helpful in helping that aspect of it, and then they feel better about themselves because they then can follow through on getting the disordered ordered and getting their things done, and then they feel better because they can walk home and it's not clutter, which for many people. And I was listening to a talk on chronic fatigue syndrome, put him by a doctor probably about 2010 in New Zealand and it's on YouTube, and he said the number one trigger for people who have chronic fatigue syndrome, which to me is a synonym to fibromyalgia, is clutter. And then I'm like, oh, that's an interesting data point, add that to my detective brain. And then you're like, oh, people with autism don't do good with clutter. Oh, autism, and these central sensitivities overlap. Oh, what's the connection? Oh, well then I thought you were going to say if you can have a spouse who's listening, who then can go, yet it may not bother you, but it really does bother your spouse to have that. So when she or he says that I don't like that, it is like no, no, it's not like I don't really like it, it's no, it's distressing.

Speaker 2: 39:48

Right. Right, because you're at war with yourself, because you have all the things going on and some of the things battle with other of the things and you have to figure out what's going to win at that particular moment.

Speaker 1: 40:00

Yeah, you talk about like going to an event. For some people, as you read their stories, they will use alcohol in an unhealthy manner to treat the anxiety so they can interact, which is not a good solution because long term you can have a lot of obvious health problems from excess alcohol drinking and create a lot of problems. So it's often when somebody's stressed and they're not, they're having a fibro flare they may want to go for the calorie dense foods, which in the short term is like having a couple shots of whiskey to help you calm your nerves, having that comfort food to calm your nerves, and then yet it is a short term, brief benefit, but long term has so many problems and you can hopefully avoid those situations by planning ahead like you're doing. Well, thanks so much again for your great interview again here and for your first interview, and know that you're helping people from all around the world as we finish off the year 2023 and look forward to living better with Fibromyalgia. Thank you, fibromyalgia, for listening. I hope this podcast has and will continue to be beneficial on your journey to go beyond from learning to just live with, but to live your best life possible with Fibromyalgia and related illnesses. As always. I'd love to hear from you at Dr Michael Lenz at gmailcom. Until next year, go, team Fibro.