Looking for insights into how to navigate the complex world of VCE in Victoria? Tune in to this episode of our podcast, where we chat with Nicole from the Victorian Tertiary Admission Center (VTAC). We delve into how VTAC works, from interpreting your VCE results to translating them into an ATAR and ultimately securing an offer from a university. We also answer common questions about study scores, scaling, SEAS, and the ATAR. This episode is a must-listen for any student completing or about to start their VCE. Don't miss out on these valuable tips and insights!
Note: This episode is specific to students completing their VCE.
We want to mention to Bridge Media for the coaching/ mentoring and support in developing our introduction music.
Looking for insights into how to navigate the complex world of VCE in Victoria? Tune in to this episode of our podcast, where we chat with Nicole from the Victorian Tertiary Admission Center (VTAC). We delve into how VTAC works, from interpreting your VCE results to translating them into an ATAR and ultimately securing an offer from a university. We also answer common questions about study scores, scaling, SEAS, and the ATAR. This episode is a must-listen for any student completing or about to start their VCE. Don't miss out on these valuable tips and insights!
Note: This episode is specific to students completing their VCE.
We want to mention to Bridge Media for the coaching/ mentoring and support in developing our introduction music.
Voice Over (00:04):
Welcome to another episode of Careers Night, the podcast that asks, what's your job? And how did you get it? We'd like to start by respectfully acknowledging the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, who are the traditional owners of the land on which this recording has taken place. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging. Now, to introduce today's guest, here's your host, Chris Potts.
Chris (00:33):
Thank you and welcome again to Careers Night. Today's episode is slightly different. Today, I'm very excited to welcome Nicole be who is the external relations coordinator for the Victorian Tertiary Admission Center, otherwise known as VTAC. In today's episode, I'm keen to explore with Nicole exactly what VTAC do and how it all unfolds. So for those of you who that aren't aware, that will include everything from study scores, scaling SEAS selection, rank right through to, to university offers. I think it's a, a really valuable conversation and a, a really good point in time for students to stop, reflect on the bigger program that they're taking part in at the moment, and just understand how that is gonna ladder into their ultimate career. So let's kick it off. Thanks very much for, for joining me and, and making the time. What we are recording today is a slightly different episode to, to what we traditionally do on careers night, but I will start with the same question. If you can start by introducing yourself and telling us what you do.
Nicole (01:36):
Sure. well, my name's Nicole and I'm working in the external relations team at VTAC. So we handle all the inquiries and information that go out to applicant schools all of the other various stakeholders that have interest in the information that VTAC puts out for the purposes of applying and selection every year.
Chris (01:56):
Obviously doing things like this, talking to the media and, and is a normal part of your job, how sort of connected to that application process Are you and across what they go through?
Nicole (02:08):
Pretty connected. Particularly at the moment because we are sort of doing quite a bit of work on reformatting and improving that whole process. We always are, but at the moment, sort of deeply interested in trying to improve access information. We're always striving to sort of get access to pet people, particularly when it comes down to special consideration or SEAS applications, which is one of my big focus at Vtac at the moment. So at the moment, yeah, pretty intimately connected with all of that. The, the debrief or the post selection debrief is of something we've just handled. So going through what worked, what didn't work, our wins and all of that sort of stuff, it was one of those selections where we're really happy to say we had no problems <laugh>. So yeah, we, we, we think we've, we've had a victory this time round, which is always excellent. So yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a good selection this 22, 23.
Chris (03:06):
That's awesome. And you know, you mentioned SEAS, that it's something I do wanna explore. There's been a lot of questions on some of the forums online around that, but I think to help and and understand the difference between yourself and VCAA. I think would be really helpful to understand where do you guys start and, and where do they finish, I guess?
Nicole (03:25):
Sure thing. Well, when applicants or students first start year 11, that's when they establish their profile with V C A A. So as soon as they start their V C E or whatever their upper secondary study is, that's when they get involved with the VCAA we become involved sort of at the year 12 point. So once students who are doing their final years of secondary school start exploring what their options are post completing year 12, we sort of step in with that process of helping those who are interested in tertiary studies. So if you are applying for any of the courses that Vtac handle we get all of the information that's on your file from the VCA A and that sort of forms your account with us and how we calculate the ATAR, which is what is predominantly used for selection for most of the courses that Vtac handle applications for.
Chris (04:22):
So V C A A get the scores, they complete the assessment, the exams, the mm-hmm <affirmative>, the course criteria, they then share that information with you Yes. And you translate those scores into something that the universities can then use?
Nicole (04:36):
That's correct, yes. So we, we handle all of the well, we have the portal that is the VTAC website, which contains the prerequisite explorer core search, which is the tools that applicants would use to find the courses that they're wanting to study post year 12 or for non-school levers, all of them as well. But we do take the scores that come to us from the V C A A post assessment for all of the secondary study, which formulates the ATAR. So ATAR calculation is all handled by us, so our role kicks in with applicants in the colation and calculation of that data. And also in relation to scholarships, cuz we handle most of the scholarships, applications, SEAS, as we've pointed out. So that's sort of our, our involvement sort of kicks in at about July when applications open for main round every year.
Chris (05:32):
That's awesome. And, and it gives us a whole hope to, to discuss and talk through in the next little bit, but it sounds like a student's first engagement with you will be when they start looking at the UNI courses that are available and the prerequisites for those courses?
Nicole (05:46):
For the most part, yes. We're actively trying to involve students from a much younger age now that there's more options when it comes to what you do in secondary school. So it has been the, for a while that students who are doing a vce and vet subjects, are able to undertake those earlier than year 11, so they can do their units one and two when the school permits it from, from year 10. So we wanna try to engage with the community from year nine and start getting kids to think about what their goals and aims are for tertiary study. So that sort of helps to assist with what what they wanna do when it comes to year 11 and 12. Doing the subjects earlier is vet their option, is VCE their option, and then what subjects interest them? So we are, we are really working towards trying to get them to think about involvement with vtac much earlier, getting them used to the tools. So particularly what we talked about with the prerequisites and course search, just understanding how they all work. So it's not like hitting year 12 and then having this surge of information about applying for tertiary study as well as everything else that's going on in the most important year of their schooling. So we wanna sort of create that relationship from as earliest possible. But yeah, year nine is usually what we're sort of aiming at at this point.
Chris (06:59):
That's really interesting. So hopefully the people who are are listening to this have already been engaged with some of your activities and some of your work and, and will be quite familiar with what that looks like,
Nicole (07:09):
Hopefully. Yeah, we are working with careers PR practitioners in particular at the moment to try to encourage them to get their students and their cohorts involved much sooner. We're also putting out a lot more information in terms of short YouTube videos and other things like that. We've always had the guide for Year tens, which is on our website that helps them with that whole process of subject selection. But we are really trying to push at the moment, getting involved with VTAC as soon as possible and understanding what we do. Particularly when it comes down to parents and guardians and, you know, people who may not have been through this process before. It can be a lot to understand what exactly it is that we do. So trying to get everybody familiar with that as soon as possible, I think is the key aim for us at the moment.
Chris (07:53):
You know, one thing I, I don't think we'll spend time on today is that process of a student deciding what it is they want to do and the right course in order to, to get there. I appreciate that you've got a lot of tools in order to, to cover that, but I, I guess for the purpose of this conversation, we'll pick it up from the pointers to they've decided what they want to do and, and they've identified the courses they want to get to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, can you help me just understand a little bit more around the prerequisites and Sure. What, what's shared there is from the courses as far as the prerequisites and, and what they mean.
Nicole (08:25):
Sure. Well see it, it's good that you pick that up because prerequisites is really important for courses that students are applying for at tertiary level. Because if you don't meet prerequisites, then you're ineligible for the course. So that basically means having the scores, the subjects, meeting portfolio requirements or other institutional requirements. So they are quite specific and it's really good to have an understanding of, say for example, you know, if you're into creative arts looking at the subjects that you would need to choose for your preferred course from year 10 is really critical. Just to make sure if you, you've got the creative arts subjects that are required to meet the portfolio requirements if they have them when you hit year 12. So this is quite particular for a lot of science-based courses particularly from medicine and things like that.
(09:18):
Same with veterinary science. I mean a lot of the tertiary courses will have English as a prerequisite and they may have then a subject score also as a minimum subject score, also as a prerequisite. So, you know, what you might find for most courses is really different, but it's really good to sort of say, okay, my interest level is in this field. And then get an understanding by looking at, you know, a handful or more of courses in that field to see what sort of prerequisites they do require. So yeah, it's just, it's particular to each institution, so you don't ever really know, but it's good to sort of get a feel for what each one is after. And that will sort of guide you, I guess, in your results then for subject scores and then your overall ATAR. So, you know, in line with prerequisite selection is largely based on ATAR.
(10:09):
I think most people are pretty comfortable with that, cuz that whole purpose of the ATAR is for tertiary selection. And then we have like the lowest selection rank, which is now what used to be called the clearly in, but that would sort of be your benchmark in terms of selection for a course. So like say, you know, we are looking at an arts course or something to that effect. Most of those arts courses would have a prerequisite of English with potentially maybe a minimum subject score of 25, sometimes 30, again, an institution dependent. And they may have a lower selection rank, say of around 65. So that would then mean at the 65 point and above applicants would be eligible for selection to that course. So it's sort of multifaceted when it comes to the pre prerequisite and selection side of things.
Chris (10:57):
And that lower selection rank, is that what was successful last year or is that where they're setting the benchmark for next year?
Nicole (11:05):
No, we publish whatever it is for the current round. So we're talking in the moment in 22, 23. So you could see those selection reports on our website that will show you what was the benchmarks for this. So each year is a rough guide of what it will be for the following year. So if students are able to sort of set their expectations based on what happened in the previous year, yeah, look, there's not really a huge variation between them. It really only depend like some courses are canceled or changed, then there might be some alterations in that. But yeah, usually it's approximately about the same each year. All
Chris (11:38):
Right. So we've covered off that prerequisites are completing a subject and getting the, the score stated by the, the institution mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and then they'll also have a look at the ATAR. Yes. Can we go a little bit more into how that ATAR is derived? What's included in that and how you get there?
Nicole (11:55):
Sure. So you can do six subjects, and English must always be one of the subjects that's included in your ATAR calculation, the full subject score. So you could do six subjects, so it's English your best four, and then your fifth and sixth, 10% of your fifth and sixth depend. They, they would be then your two lower performing subjects.
Chris (12:16):
I just wanted to jump in here. Nicole and I had a, a follow up conversation following the recording of this, and we thought it might be beneficial to just clarify the, the point that Nicole was making there. She says that all students must study English. There are four choices that a student can make for their English subject being English literature, English language, or English as an additional language. So all students must complete one of the subjects that falls from the English bracket. On top of that, Nicole also said in the moment that it's English plus X four best subjects, it's English plus X three, best English forming one of your top four where the entire score is included. And then it's 10% of your fifth and sixth subject.
Nicole (13:00):
There are other variations in how that can be calculated if you're doing some people do university studies, vet those sorts of things. So there's different calculations for how those subjects can be included in the ATAR calculation. But predominantly it's that first variation that we talked about as to how the ATAR is calculated. And that is then based on the scaled study scores. So the scaling is also something that's done by VTAC. So we get the raw scores from the VCAA and then their scaled and then they go into the ATAR calculation.
Chris (13:35):
Galing is obviously complicated.
Nicole (13:38):
Extremely <laugh>. Yeah, extremely. Yeah, it's, it's scaling is one of those things. That's based on performance of a cohort in any given year. So it's not related to previous years, it's related to subject types and the numbers of students in each subject. So there is a lot that goes into how scaling works and would totally recommend for more in depth to look at the YouTube videos that we have in relation to scaling. So people could get particular ideas relating to the subjects that it is their thinking of studying. But scaling is also one of those things that I think there's a common misconception. People are like, when I'm choosing my subjects for year 11 and 12, that I should do something that scales highly so that I have a better chance of getting a better ATAR. And I can't say more.
(14:28):
That's not the way to choose because performance in any subject is really based on your knowledge, your skillset, and your interest levels. So if you've not got the head for science, but you pick chemistry because you think you're gonna get a better score, that's not the case. So it, it's, it is based on the performance of the cohort and the subject as a whole. So you've got your best chance of your favorite subjects, ones that you know that you're good at, and getting a good study score <laugh> for that, and then getting a higher ATAR. So I just wanna make sure everybody's aware of that
Chris (14:59):
<Laugh>. Absolutely. So a few things I'll pick up there. So the first one is the YouTube videos are awesome. I will link in the website and in the notes here to point people to them. They're, they're very much worth watching to understand scaling. It is complicated. The second point you made there, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is don't pick pub subjects based on how you think they're gonna scale pick subjects based on what you enjoy doing and what you think you're gonna do. Well, a correct poor result in any subject scaled well is still a poor result. That's
Nicole (15:27):
Exactly correct. <Laugh>.
Chris (15:29):
Perfect. So as, as best you can then, what is the reason for scaling? Why, why do sub subjects scale different directions,
Nicole (15:39):
I suppose? Like there's some pretty high performance in in some subjects. And if I can probably maybe pick up language as an example. You get students who actually have a certain language as their first language who can perform extremely well in that. As opposed to somebody who might be learning that from scratch. It, it, it's really just to, to make sure that it's evened out across all of the subject areas.
Chris (16:09):
Yeah. So what I understand, the reason is that you know, traditionally when I was there we used to say, well, that subject's really hard, therefore it scales up and, and this is an easier subject and therefore it scales down. Whereas I think having a look at the YouTube sites and some of the websites, is the language being used these around some subjects are more competitive in that Correct. Students who complete that subject, if you take the midpoint being 30 Yep. A study. So you've achieved a study score of 30, those same students might average 34 across all their other subjects. Yes. So if the average of a subject is averaging 34 across all their other subjects, then that suggests that that subject is a little bit harder Yes. Than or more competitive than the the other subjects.
Nicole (16:56):
Yes, that's right.
Chris (16:58):
All right. So we, we understand that prerequisites are set based on study scores, subjects completed, and they have the, the minimum selection criteria, which moves a little bit. And, and that all feeds into the, the ATAR, I guess, and, and the ATAR comprises study scores, post scaling mm-hmm. <Affirmative> as we know, scaling is done to make each of the subjects equivalent, I guess their scores based on how competitive each of the cohorts in each of the subjects are. So, correct. Yep. That scaling process is really important. Youtube videos online help explain some of that in their well worth watching. Is anything else considered in the ATAR or is it purely and simply those study scores of which you get the first four, including English plus 10% of your fifth and sixth?
Nicole (17:40):
Yeah, it's, it's all whatever other combination that you have, depending on what other subjects that you've done. But yes, that's correct. I mean, there is a common misconception that particularly in relation to SEAS, that if you've applied for an awarded SEAS, that that changes your ATAR, that does not change your ATAR. That is only an allowance that's given by some institutions who allow for SEAS or special consideration to go towards their selection rank. So selection rank is different to an ATAR. So everybody gets their ATAR. That is what it is based on the calculation, the selection rank I includes any allowances that have been granted by institutions relating to SEAS or subject bonuses of some courses will allocate a bonus if you've completed a certain subject or a certain combination of subjects or achieved over a certain score for a subject that will I improve your selection rank. So while it's still appears like it is an ATAR, it's, it's not an ATAR, the ATAR is something that is fixed based solely on your results after scaling, whereas the selection rank includes those extra bits and pieces that we've talked about where applicable.
Chris (18:51):
Okay. So this is where it starts getting a bit deeper and, and I guess less understood or well understood by mm-hmm. <Affirmative> by the code. So I do my subjects, I get my study scores mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, there's a scaling process that goes on that ladders into the ATAR. I get communicated my ATAR mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and it's the number everyone's talking about. And what we do, it is effectively a ranking, the R in ATAR is ranking. Yep. And it's based on percentiles.
Nicole (19:19):
Correct? Yes,
Chris (19:20):
That's
Nicole (19:20):
Right. So against, against your cohort that in that year,
Chris (19:24):
So an 85 ATAR puts me in the top 85th percentile of students who have completed studies.
Nicole (19:32):
Yeah. The top 15%. Yeah.
Chris (19:35):
Yeah. Perfect.
Nicole (19:36):
Yeah.
Chris (19:36):
<Laugh>. Yeah. But then there's this selection rank. Mm-Hmm.
Nicole (19:40):
<Affirmative>,
Chris (19:42):
Do I know what my selection rank is?
Nicole (19:44):
No. So selection ranks are based on the numbers that apply for a given course. So say for example, you have a course that's taking 50 students, then you, that would be the rank of people that have applied for that course. And that's sort of how then they work out the lowest selection rank for admission to a course. So say for example, using what you said, you've got 85 and the lowest selection rank for that course is 80, then it's pretty much a given that you're going to get in, assuming you meet prerequisites and what have you. So that's easy to establish. Say for example, you're applying for a course that has a lowest selection rank of 85 and you've got an ATAR of 80, in that case, you would be relying on bonuses that you get if applicable for subjects you've completed or any allowances for SEAS.
Chris (20:38):
Okay.
Nicole (20:38):
If you've applied for it <laugh>.
Chris (20:40):
Right. Yeah. So let's then for talk through SEAS. What, what is SEAS?
Nicole (20:46):
So SEAS is a special entry admission scheme. So it basically refers to allowances that can be given to applicants if they have experienced some sort of disadvantage during the course of their study, or if they're post-secondary post-school leave, something that's happened that's impacted their ability to perform to their best or undertake what they've wanted to at certain points in life. So there are allowances that are made for people who live in certain locations. So based on region, if their access to resources is limited, they can get an allowance for that. We have allowances for general disadvantage that might come from normal life circumstances, which can be anything from family disharmony. Being an asylum seeker you know, the, the spread of things that fall under that general disadvantage is significant. There's financial issues that could cause a problem. You may not be able to complete study cuz you're unable to afford it or your family's unable to afford it, you don't have access to a computer or books.
(21:52):
You know, there's quite a significant amount of things that sort of fit under that as well. Importantly there's also medical. So if you've experienced some sort of illness or injury that has prevented you from being able to study then that's also another reason why you can apply for special consideration. So the requirements around it are not extensive. It's just basically being able to demonstrate that you have experienced the disadvantage and how that's impacted your studies. So some of those require evidence to prove it. So in the, in the case of general disadvantage, you would need a statement of support from somebody who knows what's happened in your life. When it comes to medical, we would need a medical report from a treating practitioner to substantiate that. But it, it all reflects back to how it's impacted your study. That's what you have to be able to demonstrate.
Chris (22:47):
Okay. And something I thought I picked up in my studies as well is that some courses or some universities may decide that that particular subject is underrepresented by a demographic of the population. Correct. Yep. Does that come through the SEAS?
Nicole (23:03):
It does process, yeah. Yeah. So just improving say bowel balance of genders in some courses is a priority for some. So there may be an allowance on that. Yeah, yeah. As we mentioned, like regional locations is sort of getting more kids who may be, you know, not living in metropolitan areas. People who, who are on certain visas as well, they can get some allowances for that. So there is a couple of different things. Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander is another one. We're trying to improve access for them, get more of that cohort into certain courses. So there are, there are allowances that are made for a variety of different things, but that is cost dependent. It's institution dependent. So you would need to familiarize with those institutions and courses on our website as to the ones that will take SEAS. So,
Chris (23:55):
And I guess that leads to why we don't become aware of what our SEAS score is. Yeah. Because it's dependent on the institution
Nicole (24:04):
For Yeah, that's right. So say you are putting in an application for eight courses, or you've got eight preferences listed there, five may offer SEAS, three may not. And then what they allow for that in that SEAS allocation is also up to them. So I guess VT a role in all of that is we offer the application process, we take the evidence we assess all of that. We make sure that we have everything there that they can take, make a full assessment as to whether or not they, they'll make that allowance for SEAS for that course.
Chris (24:36):
Absolutely. And then there are I think you call them subject bonuses.
Nicole (24:41):
Yeah. So some, some institutions and some courses will offer a bonus if you've completed something that's preferential to that course or you've achieved a score in a a subject that is advantageous to that course. So you know, off the top of your head, there might be like a science course you apply for, if you've got biology and chemistry, you might get an additional bonus that would improve your selection rank for those subjects completed.
Chris (25:07):
So you don't apply for the subject bonuses, that's just a No, that's
Nicole (25:11):
Automatic. Yeah. That's automatically done by the institution. Yeah.
Chris (25:14):
<Laugh>. But we do apply for SEAS.
Nicole (25:16):
Absolutely. Yeah. So SEAS is only open to people who are making an application through vtac. So you have to make a Vtac application to be able to apply for SEAS and then it's sort of happened hand in hand with your vtac application.
Chris (25:30):
And if someone is considering a SEAS application, is the recommendation that everyone should just have a look at it, do the stuff, or do you need to feel like you should have a go at it?
Nicole (25:43):
Yeah, no, look, we, we recommend that everybody consider a SEAS application because you never know, you know, what, what it could be that might help you get across the line. So there's different allowances made depending on the disadvantage. I mean, obviously we have people that go through quite significant trauma, whether it's related to what we've been through recently, <laugh> with covid and then we've had a lot of natural disasters, you know, but then it's all impact too. So we've had people that have lost their houses and as a result become homeless. And obviously that's quite significant and will really impact their studies. So we say to everybody, it doesn't really matter what you think the disadvantage is, whether you think it's significant or not, put the application in so it can be assessed, because that might be what it is that gets you over the line if you're really close to selection.
Chris (26:32):
Okay. That's really interesting. And, and I'm sure really valuable to know. And so if I'm just trying to piece it together. So I complete my year 12 subjects, I've done my four to six subjects, whatever the decision is I've made, I've got my study scores, I've got my ATAR, I've considered the courses that I can get into it and I know the prerequisites and I say, right, I've ticked those boxes mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and I'm looking at my ATAR compared to the lower selection rank that was mm-hmm. <Affirmative> likely to be accepted mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So that I, I I guess that's the difference between ATAR and that lowest selection rank is that the correct institution is not communicating to me the lowest ATAR they'll accept, they're communicating to me the lowest selection rank they'll select. So what you've said Yep. Is if my ATAR is higher than that lowest selection mate Yep. Happy days. Like I'm, I'm pretty much there if it's lower than that. Yep. I'm going to be dependent on either my SEAS or my subject bonus.
Nicole (27:32):
Yeah. If they're applicable. Yes. And, and that is a bit of a gray area because they're like the SEAS in particular, you don't know what you've been allocated for that. So it is sort of something that we just have to accept. There's a relative unknown.
Chris (27:46):
Yes. Yeah. We, we just have to wait and, and see and yes. Is it ever a case that, you know, I say in this scenario, I didn't do a SEAS application, I I just decided it wasn't there. My ATAR was one below the minimum selection requirement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I'm not gonna get an offer to that subject no matter what or
Nicole (28:07):
It's No, you won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We, we would, we would definitely say when you're making those decisions of setting your preferences is make sure that you're above it. I mean, you can always, it could because you're, but, and particularly for the first round of the following year, so you're looking at the previous year's selection ranks as a guide, you can always afford to put it as your first preference just in case there's an adjustment down for that next selection. But that's when sort of change of preference, which is a really critical part of the whole application process, sort of kicks in. So this year we had a really plentiful and exceptional December round after not running it for a couple of years due to covid. And we had a, a significant bulk of offers, particularly cuz it was just year 12 went out during December.
(28:50):
So if you have your courses listed from one to eight, so in preference order with one being your highest based on the previous year's selection ranks, cuz that's what you're looking for as a reference. And then you don't get anything until your fourth off your fourth preference in that first round. You will then, after that December selection, have the opportunity to look at the lowest ranks for those above four above three courses. So then you can say, okay, I'm, I'm not gonna get into any of those. Am I happy with my fourth or do I wanna change them all together? So change of preference is really important, particularly after those first rounds, just to make sure that you're giving yourself the best chance of being accepted into the course that you want the most.
Chris (29:34):
Very good. So leading into the first round offer in December mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I'm reliant on last year's minimum selection rank and Correct, as you stated earlier, that doesn't move a lot, but it can move based on, on factors Yes. Following that and for all the subsequent selection rounds mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I can view what's already been accepted Correct. As
Nicole (29:55):
The minimum. Yeah. So there will be a report on our website for those lowest selection ranks after that first round.
Chris (30:01):
And the, the guidance is to utilize that to then decide if I want to change my preferences and correct, I'm gonna reflect moving forward.
Nicole (30:08):
Exactly. Yes, exactly
Chris (30:11):
That. Putting in the preference process mm-hmm. <Affirmative> is, is that something you can talk us through a little bit as to Yeah, sure. From when and how?
Nicole (30:18):
Yeah, sure. So this goes back to again, being familiar with corset on our website. And you know, there's a great facility on there that's perfect for U 12 s. They could put the subjects that they're completing into the program and then that will provide them with a list of courses that they meet prerequisites for. So it can't really be any easier than that. So it would be then filtering through those and having a look at firstly probably the institutions that you want to study at. So it might be looking at location you know, there's probably more and more people traveling for study these days. So is it close to home? Do you have to move? You know, open days are critical when it comes to these kind of things. You know, through year 11 and 12, we try to say to students, go applicants go to as many open days as you can and get a feel for the institution.
(31:10):
Things have been a little bit airy fairy over the last couple of years due to covid. There's not been a lot of on-site stuff, but that's all picking up and changing at the moment. So the vibe out there is quite different. So get back into that as soon as you can. There are multiple open days there and not just one. So we want you to look at the institution's websites, look at their courses, go and look at their campus, sort of just get a feel for what you think is the most comfortable and best suited for you. And that will also be a huge factor in setting your preferences. So it's not only the subjects you've completed and the selection rank, your ATAR, all of that. It's, it's what you feel about the institution that you're wanting to study at. So looking online would be your first point. And then heading out and actually going to the campus, speaking to people on site, it's a hundred percent one of the best things that you can do.
Chris (31:58):
Awesome. And it sounds like that journey to deciding what uni course you want to do, and bearing in mind your space is not career advice I, I presume, but is is the process around it, but it seems like starting year nine have a look and a sense of what it is you want to do. Yeah. What sort of course do you want to be studying? Yeah. Because year nine year 10, you're paving the way to do your subject selections in year 11 and 12.
Nicole (32:25):
Correct.
Chris (32:26):
But then it then sounds like, you know, that's constantly evolving, especially like you're 16 when you start making these decisions and, and 18 when you finalize it and Yeah. So that constantly changes and evolves. So Yeah. Then sounds like once you're in year 12, go into your website mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and you can punch in the subjects you're actually doing. Yeah,
Nicole (32:45):
Exactly.
Chris (32:46):
And this will then prompt all the, the uni or further education opportunities that are available based on those subjects that you're doing, and then you can explore them and then go and explore the institutions that offer those subjects to decide It's
Nicole (32:58):
Absolutely doing. Absolutely. And and you might have an idea in your head that you wanna study psychology where do I do that? So it's then looking at the institutions that offer psychology and then looking within each of those courses what their focus is. So there there will be some differences. So there, you know, you can, you can go that far down as to what subjects each course offers. So there's a huge variety. It's the same with things like sound engineering, like what one institution might offer could be quite different to what another offers. So it's, it's having a look and seeing, well what aspects of each of those areas are you most interested in and making sure that you're applying for the course that offers, you know, that, that kind of detail if that's what you're after. I mean, arts is a very general area that offers quite a large selection of courses, but some institutions may not offer psychology as a part of their arts program.
(33:51):
So it's making sure you're aware if you are applying for arts, that it does actually offer the subject range that you are after. So I mean, arts is incredibly broad <laugh>, you can do criminology and you could do cultural studies, like there's so many different things you could do under that banner. But having just looked at that recently, you know, there are some courses that don't offer certain things that others do. So it's just making sure that you've got the access to all of the areas that you wanna study in each one of those. It may even be the case with law, some law courses if you're looking to specialize or you know Exactly, you know, and good on you. If you do know that from an early age they may not offer family law as a part of their program, so it's, you know, or they may not offer international law.
(34:34):
So it's making sure when you are applying that that is a part of the, the course component as you progress through the, the years of study that's involved. So, I mean, obviously, you know, everybody goes into a course, they're thinking it's what they wanna do or that's the offer that they get. There's a lot of change, particularly for first year, and it's not a problem. Like people change all the time. You can get credits for study that you've completed if you looking to change courses in some cases. I mean, it, we just try to say to everybody, don't panic about having to make such a massive decision as I'm gonna have to do this course. You there are always options as you progress and you know, we, we take applications from people into their eighties, so we're always, we're always changing, chopping, furthering our knowledge. And so yeah, it, it's, nothing is ever absolute when it comes to this.
Chris (35:24):
I find that really interesting and again, a couple points I'll pick up the first one as a, as a massage. You, you spoke about the breadth of an arts. I was always jealous of one of my friends that studied great moments in Australian sport at, at university. So I <laugh> it, it you really can and can study like, but one of the, it, it's interesting then what you said around the changing courses and, and things. One of the premises of careers, not the podcast here, is that we talk to people about their career journeys and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in a hope to prove that it's not linear to remove some of that stress that people or students go through in year 12. Because, you know, one of our first guests is currently an infectious disease doctor and, and doing really well, but he missed medicine initially and mm-hmm.
(36:08):
<Affirmative> and had to find an alternate path. We've had guests who studied law, worked as tax lawyers for a period of time and, and now run marketing firms and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and that fact that it is constantly changing. And one thing we haven't spoken to yet is that changing in within university and the fact that you can change courses and things like that. I, I think my question is, I I'm curious within the culture of, of where you work, what mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, how do you guys juggle that balance between this is the most important year of your education and, and this number that you're going to get, being that ATAR and and selection rank is hugely important. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but it's not everything. It,
Nicole (36:46):
It's not, it's absolutely not everything. And perhaps if I can use a personal example there, just based on what you said, I just missed out on law when I finished year 12th, long time ago, <laugh> and did an arts degree whilst I was first working at Vtac back then. So I have been at Vtac for quite some time in different roles over the years. Completed the arts degree, then waited a year, did my law degree, practiced in law, and then started a family, came back to Vtac. So it's just, you know, as you said, it, it chops and changes over time. And look, I've gotta be honest with you, post year 12 that ATAR did not really mean very much at all because when I applied for law at 22, it was more of the subject results that I'd received in my arts degree that drove the decision for my selection at that point in time.
(37:40):
As, you know, ATAR would've come into consideration, but it just goes to show you that you can do so many different things and then, you know, when you, even if you defer for a year of straight out of your 12, or you do six months of study and defer for a year when you're applying as a post-school lever, you are, life experience comes into things. Any work that you've done while you've not been stunning comes into selection factors. So it, it, it is important in the sense that it's important for how you perform in year 12. And everybody's got their eye on the prize when it comes to what they hope for themselves, what they want to achieve. But it is, it is just a small part of your education journey. So we just sort of say to people, you know, don't be too caught up in that amount. <Laugh>, you know, have your goals Absolutely work your hardest because it is only one year, in most cases, probably only nine months than exams. So <laugh>, which try to take that stress off a little bit, but you know, it, it is not the be all and end all of life.
Chris (38:38):
It's funny, I, when you reflect back and you, you get to point off and you do reflect back, and I know that VCE was a period that I look back on very fondly, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I really enjoyed my year 12 experience. And the things I enjoyed were obviously not sitting around studying and but at the camaraderie issue and, and the fact that you are all on this shared journey and you're all going in the same direction and, and it's, it's juggling that and, you know, I was confident of getting the marks I needed for, for my particular course. It it mm-hmm. <Affirmative> it was something I could do. And you know, as I said, we at careers night, we, we focused on those alternative paths and, and things like that, but at the same time, the HR mark and, and your study scores are important at a point in time.
(39:19):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, you know, we say that we are here to support students to make the right decisions that enable them to thrive. Yep. and that thriving is obviously every element of life, but careers and, and work and, and all those sorts of things is, is a part of that and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> the decision, I guess to, to focus the work hard is, is a decision that we wanna support students to make. It's a matter of opening up your eyes to all the different options that are out there. And it sounds like absolutely the core selector that you've got enables students to do that, to understand absolutely everything and, and to think sort of a little bit differently to traditional career paths.
Nicole (39:53):
Absolutely. I mean, we say look at everything. I mean, in addition, you know, I'm doing quite a bit of work at the moment on study pathways, so supporting students that say maybe have completed their year 12 or vet or whatever and then don't get selection. So what happens then? What do you do? What are your options? And there are so many options that are available and I think that's probably something that, you know, applicants need to understand a little bit more of. I mean, you can do a single subject at an institution. If you don't get selected to a course, you can do a diploma or a foundation course. So that sometimes even if you, you know, start off, say for example, the course you want to get into is got a lower selection rank of 70, you get 60, you go into a foundation course, you do that for a year, you might do it for two, then you get a place just based on your performance, solely in that foundation course, into the degree course.
(40:46):
And then you complete that and you've got your diploma. You might have a certificate too, then you've got a degree. So all of a sudden you're in a much better position than you would've been if you had have gone straight into the degree course. So there's it, there's other options there. There's tafe and you know, we just try to encourage people to look at everything to find out what it is that works for them, that, you know, your tertiary study is really important, your options are really important, but there are so many things that you can do to achieve what it is that you want to achieve. So, you know, we, we encourage everybody to look at all of those things
Chris (41:18):
As we discussed. What you want to achieve is only at a point in time and, and that's gonna change as, as life evolves around you and you progress through that journey and, and what you wanna do. So what other things in your control while you're, you're at VCE and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and what you're trying to do here is maximize the opportunities in front of you. The Yep. The course you're selecting is the course you wanna select right now mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that might change in a year's time. It might change in five years time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it may never change. Yep. elements in your control are doing what you can do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> doing it well. Yep. Having fun along the way, but making sure you optimize your performance. Yes. How study scores are scaled outside of your control. <Laugh>. Yes.
Nicole (41:58):
Absolutely.
Chris (41:59):
So park that one. We we're just gonna reutter again, don't pick your subjects based on that scaling. No. You can't control that. That's not something you can influence. Pick the subjects based on what you feel like you can control and what you can do well in.
Nicole (42:11):
Exactly.
Chris (42:12):
You're then gonna get a, an ATAR score, which is the sum of all your study scores. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ranked across everyone else in your cohort Yep. To give an indication as to where you sit there. Yep. The universities or the institutions will then use that ATAR plus a few other sources to generate a selection rank. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that selection rank will differ based on the institution. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but that's ultimately the number they're gonna use to decide on who gets into their course and, and gets to complete it.
Nicole (42:39):
Spot on.
Chris (42:40):
That's a, a pretty good synopsis, isn't it? It
Nicole (42:42):
Is. It's an excellent synopsis. Well done
Chris (42:44):
<Laugh>. Very good. Alright, I think we got there and, and there's a few other things which I think fall under the VCA a a banner like the ga. Yeah. that's all that's outside of your realm?
Nicole (42:54):
That's all outside of Vtac. Yes. Yep.
Chris (42:57):
Perfect. is there anything else that you are sitting there thinking the students should really be aware of as they sort of navigate study schools, ATAR selection and universities?
Nicole (43:09):
All I say is just don't leave it to the last minute. Like if anything, the last couple of years has taught us how dynamic the world is and how quickly things can change. Just going back to the conversations that we've had about SEAS large numbers, I think we were talking around 47,000 applications for that last year. It is something that we are still experiencing a bit of a backlog when it comes to seeing health practitioners and other specialists. I know that a couple of students have said that waiting for assessments for situations such as ADHD is taking over a year to get in to see a specialist. So if you're thinking, even if you've got an inkling that there might be something that's happening there get onto it as soon as possible. Don't leave it to the last minute because those closing dates are really firm.
(43:55):
So usually he'd say around the first week of October is when SEAS closes. So if you know that you've got something in April, start getting your paperwork ready. It's all about preparation. And I know that sometimes that can't be helped. Some things happen at the last minute and it does put you under a bit of time pressure, but if you know about it sooner, if it's been a long-term thing, if you've had say learning difficulties, you know, hearing issues, whatever, get onto it and have it ready as soon as possible so you don't have, find yourself scrambling. Same thing for with course selection. If you have an idea of what wanna do, start getting at looking at that information as soon as you can. There, there nothing stops you from doing it in year nine in year 10, you know, they, we have a huge amount of resources. We do webinars, there's expos, like all of that is on our website. Get those details, go look at it. Take mom, dad, grandma, brother, sister, whoever it is, whoever helps you make these decisions or who, whoever you turn to speak to, careers practitioners, the schools have all got them. Re just arm yourself with information is all I would say is just, just know what it is that you're ready to do so that you can feel comfortable going into those final years that you've got it all under control.
Chris (45:10):
And I think, you know, come to the second half of the year or the, the last quarter, I guess you don't wanna be worrying about this stuff when you're, you're worrying about <laugh> preparing for exams and the sooner you can park this the better off your your fair.
Nicole (45:23):
Exactly. And, and applications for main round through Vtac Open at the end of July, approximately every year. And they're open till approximately the end of September. So that's a significant period of time to think about what your course preferences should be, what institutions, all of that sort of information. You can change your preferences as many times as you want to in that period. Just get yourself armed and ready and sorted for that and say, let's have it all done by the end of September. So then it's really only a matter of change of preference and offers coming out that you have to worry about, because yeah, you do wanna be focusing on those final assessments at that point of the year. Not, not your course <laugh> not what course to do, which institution you can do that way earlier.
Chris (46:10):
No, I like that. And it's, it's all good advice and as always, you know, focus on what you can control, getting those applications in, attending the open days, making the best decision for you at that point in time. If the world changes, if the world moves, if, if your priorities change, then you can always make that change lATAR on.
Nicole (46:27):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Chris (46:27):
But right now work out what it is that you can do, do it today. Yep. And free up time for everything else tomorrow.
Nicole (46:35):
Exactly. <laugh>. Well
Chris (46:36):
Said. Very good. All right, well I think that covers it. So thank you so much for your time. We, we really do appreciate it. I'm sure there's gonna be ongoing questions. I'll reach out with anything and update the website if as they come in, but I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to the students with me.
Nicole (46:52):
No problem. Happy to help. Thanks so much for having me on.
Chris (46:54):
So there you have it, another episode of Careers Night. I hope that you got as much out of that one as I did. As I said from the outset, we were trialing something different here and I, I do truly believe that it's really beneficial to sit down, take the time and just rehash how the whole process comes together. It's a really daunting, stressful time. The more information we have and we can share around this to demystify it, the better. So I do encourage you to, you know, have another listen to, to jump onto our website careers night.net. Have a look at the q and a that we've got there as a part of the student quad and just really get familiar with what the process is, what you can be doing today to assist in that process, to really set yourself up for success. While I am personally passionate about the fact that your VCE does not determine the rest of your life, the more time we can spend worrying less about the actual process and focusing on the learning and our subjects, the better. It's, we've got a few really exciting episodes scheduled coming ahead, so I do hope that you come back and have another lesson in the future. In the meanwhile, reach out if you have any questions. Everything's on our website. Again, that's careers. Nice to talk. Thank you.
Voice Over (48:11):
You've been listening to Careers Night, the podcast that asks what's your job and how you got it. To find out more about this interview or access any of our resources for students, visit careers night.net.