Ben Barone-Nugent, a content designer for Netflix, talks about how he followed his passion for language and writing to land a job in an innovative field that he didn't even know existed. Ben shares valuable insights about paying attention to small details, adapting to changes in the industry, and taking on new challenges to gain valuable experience. He also talks about the importance of defining your own job and seeking out opportunities to work on bigger projects. This episode is full of practical advice for anyone who is interested in pursuing a career in tech or design.
Ben Barone-Nugent, a content designer for Netflix, talks about how he followed his passion for language and writing to land a job in an innovative field that he didn't even know existed. Ben shares valuable insights about paying attention to small details, adapting to changes in the industry, and taking on new challenges to gain valuable experience. He also talks about the importance of defining your own job and seeking out opportunities to work on bigger projects. This episode is full of practical advice for anyone who is interested in pursuing a career in tech or design.
Chris Potts:
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Careers Night, a podcast where we ask what's your job and how did you get there? My name is Chris Potts and tonight I am joined by Ben Barone-Nugent. Today's episode is one that I really enjoyed recording. It was actually a conversation with an old school friend, Ben that gave me the idea to start this podcast. I found myself wondering, "Okay, Ben, so what is that job of yours and how on earth did you get there?" And I think you'll understand that a little bit further as we go into the conversation. Something I really loved about this is for so many of us Ben is living the dream and the way he got there was just following his passion. The job he's in now didn't exist when he was making the decisions for his career.
Chris Potts:
This was purely and simply about someone who knew what it was that they loved in life. They followed that with passion and through that, they ended up doing something that is just incredibly exciting for them. They are at the forefront of what they do, and they are considered industry experts. So to me, it was a really exciting and an interesting conversation. I loved it. Okay, let's get straight into it. Welcome Ben, it's really great to have you along today. Can you start by telling us a little bit about what you do?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Yeah. Well, I mean, so nail in the head. What I do didn't exist when we were in high school together. So really what I do is I work on software interfaces. I currently work at Netflix, but previous to this I worked at Facebook and previous of that, I worked at design agencies, partnering with big companies, I think Google, Nike, Samsung, to help make language decisions that end users, people who use the software see. So I work very closely with the visual designers, people who are choosing how it's going to look, choosing what a button looks like, what the interface looks like and helping them pick the right words. In fact, I'm doing a lot of that language selection myself. So basically what I'm doing is writing, but it's in the context of software UIs. And as I was saying the real reason for that is that when you are operating at scales of hundreds of millions, so Netflix just passed 200 million members.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So 200 million PD, the words that I'm choosing really, sure it's translated into a bunch of different languages, but the information at the net at the like root of what I'm choosing is still theoretically the same. But when you're operating at that scale, one or two words can make a difference in millions and millions of dollars in profit for the company. And that's something that a lot of big technology companies have started to see. Is that just getting the language right is a nice to have. It's not just Polish, but it's good based, right?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So that's basically what I do. My title is content designer, and now it's kind of erroneous. Content is this like legacy thing from where this sort of job came from, which was doing website content, writing web pages, but what I'm really doing is I'm thinking about small elements in the UI. As I was saying in the same way that a designer might think about the way a button looks or a screen looks, I'm about what the words are going to go into there. But other people who do my job can be called content strategist, UX writer, which stands for user experience writer, a bunch of different things like that. So that's kind of in a nutshell what I do and kind of how I got like where it kind of came from.
Chris Potts:
That's I suspect fascinating to most people. So if we look at the Netflix interface, I log in and I want to go watch something on Netflix, essentially every menu word, every button within that website, you've had a say or your team has had a say in the words used in that particular page.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that we're a newer team in Netflix. I've been in the company for about two and a half years. I was really the first experienced person they brought in to do this job. The team's bigger now. So I would like to say that every word I've had to say, but some of them have existed before me and we haven't had a need to change yet, but a lot of new stuff has been influenced by me. And I think one thing to note about the job is that does actually go beyond just choosing the word. It's more of I would say a product design prac, but instead of designing the way the experience works, the product, the app works using pixels and visual elements. I'm thinking about it from that perspective of language information, but I'm still in a room with a product designer, a visual designer helping make decisions about just the mechanics and the way something should work.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
In a lot of cases the last decision I make is the word, but the real influence I have is just like the flow of things, the flow of information. What do we need to tell you at different places? So an example of something that I've been spending a lot of time actually on over the past couple years is a feature that we're about have to start rolling out globally right now it's called shuffle play, but it will actually have a different name, which is a name that I spend a lot of time testing and thinking about, one button and the fancy algorithms at Netflix, shuffle the entire catalog, look at what you like to watch and pick something for you and just play it right. Because what we see is like, if we get that word wrong, people don't click that thing because they don't know what it is. And they don't know what it's for. We're trying to like connect with our users more directly using those words.
Chris Potts:
I find that unbelievably fascinating that, that much work goes into to these kind of buttons. Very excited about your shuffle because we joke about the fact that we spend more time trying to pick a show to watch than we do actually watching it, having someone make that decision for us, we'll be amazing and...
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Exactly right. And that's sort of an interesting thing about that, which goes back to what I was saying about like a lot of the work I do actually isn't the words, but that's kind of the end. That's the last thing I kind of do in a lot of cases and it's the most material thing I put out there, but that project, which I've been working on for my entire time in Netflix actually started with that exact problem that you just said, which is that we knew people was just struggling to choose. You sit down with a meal in front of the TV and just like, "I just want something on." So the question we asked ourselves, so I got into a room with a product designer. Somebody thinks about the way it looks and a product manager who thinks about the strategy and kind of make sure everyone is working together and kind of like this kind of a CEO of that like feature and ask ourselves, "How could we solve that problem?"
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So really we start by us identifying a problem that people have and then trying to work out, what do we need to make to help them through that problem? And this is the feature we kind of landed on. Now, got to be honest, we did some tests early on and they just didn't do well. So we sort of iterated on it over a number of years and we've gotten to this thing and it's the version that you'll see will actually be called play something, right? And what we saw is that just like very conversational human words, just the way I talk to a mate, worked the best for the users, right? Like shuffle play work fine, but play something, just work better, more people will use it and they stuck to the experience better. So you'll see it. Start to see that rolling out on your TV apps pretty soon actually.
Chris Potts:
So as we said, this job didn't exist and I'm sure you had no intention of doing this when you were in year seven, eight or nine picking subjects for your future. Do you recall what place you wanted to be back at school?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
No, I got to be honest. I really didn't have a good idea of what I wanted to do. I mean, I think I sort of knew what I enjoyed, but, and I sort of vaguely knew what I wanted to study in uni. I didn't have like a, "Okay. I want to leave school and be a doctor or I want to leave school and be an economist or I want to leave school and work in agribusiness." Or something like that. A lot of my colleagues in high school didn't, I was kind of in retrospect kind of jealous of grant and they had like these goals to work to, but I always knew that I kind of enjoyed thinking about words.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
I don't know that I wanted to be like an author. I think I don't have the attention span for that to be completely honest, so it's fine. But no, so I mean, really it came down to like, "Okay. I know what I enjoy and I'm going to choose subjects based on that." And to actually share a bit about my end of high school experience, the beginning of year 11, I was doing a lot of like science and math sort of subjects. And they just weren't... Just because I felt like that was what I should be doing, right?
Chris Potts:
What I will drive that's what I should be doing.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
I think it was like there were a couple of factors in there. One is that my parents are both scientists. My dad is a physicist. My mother has a background in like paleo botany and stuff like that. My brother has got a PhD in astrophysics and he was very good at that sort of stuff. And because I kind of didn't know what I really wanted to do and I didn't necessarily slot neatly into any single subject or anything like that. I just kind of was like, "Well, I guess I'll just do specialist maths." And it was terrible for me. I just didn't enjoy it. I wasn't good at it. I just didn't have the patience for it. And I think it was kind of an interesting point where I was forced to really admit to myself and people around me, mostly to myself that this isn't right for me, that was the right thing to do.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
And actually to be honest like a lot of people around me, teachers and fellow students were supportive of that and that was kind of a good moment. It's like the people just want what's best for you. They don't want you to do what they think you should do. They just want you to be kind of happy and successful and stuff like that. But anyway, so in year 11, I changed my subjects. I took on English and literature. I dropped the advanced math class. So I changed my subjects. I focused more on the humanities and things that I really enjoyed. And honestly, that was the right thing to do. I think my end of year 12 score was better honestly than what it was. I kind of actually even remember exactly what the score was, but it was fine, I think.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
And that was good. I mean, again, like that thought, that realization that I kind of like words and understanding the way language worked, sort of ushered me into doing, studying linguistics and stuff in university. But even then there were like multiple points of reckoning where I'm like, "This isn't right or this isn't right or I don't want to be doing this." And that sort of thing. So those feelings are always kind of there right into adulthood.
Chris Potts:
So you went into Melbourne uni, is that right?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Yeah. So I went to BA at Melbourne uni and [inaudible 00:09:53] degree, which the... I don't know how it works these days. I could admit my ignorance there a little bit, but I did it, so when I was doing it, it was like three years and then you do a fourth, there was an optional fourth year, honors theses, which I chose to do, which was great, but I made it in linguistics, which was cool, which was actually perfect for me because I could think about words, but I didn't have to write like a story, right? Both plenty of essays, but it was a more of a scientific lens on the way language works, which is cool. And I really, really enjoyed it. And honestly like a lot of the skills I learned were still indispensable to me even outside of the fact that I spent a lot of my day thinking about writing. Did that-
Chris Potts:
So even at the point of selecting that as a major at uni, at that point in time, what did you view your future job might be? Where did you see that going?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Great question. Because at that point I think I was like, "Well, I'm going to be in academic." I'm like linguistics pretty much does really just set you up to be in academic. It doesn't teach you how to do copy editing or be a journalist or anything like that. Not really thinking about words in that way. So I was like, "Well, I'm just going to like do this. I enjoy it. And I like professors in academics that I was working with in my like third and fourth year of that degree and that was cool."
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So I did my honors thesis and the thesis I wrote was actually looking at the way verbs work and Australian Aboriginal language up north, which was cool, just in one year thesis. So I really didn't crack the code or anything like that. It was just like an interesting foray into this way that the part of their language works that we didn't fully understand, still don't fully like have a good system round because that's pretty much what linguists are trying to do is like find the systems of language. But by the end of that year, and you do write like an 800,000 word thesis, you have to get like bound and they review and stuff like that.
Chris Potts:
So the novel you didn't want to write.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Exactly right. And this may be part of why I mean, like may inform the next part of my story, which was the... Like by the end of that, I was like, "I don't want to do a PhD. I don't want to be in academic. I want a real job. I want to go out there and just do something that's not this." A piece of context there is that I never really took time off between high school and uni and that was the right decision at the time, but I was honestly pretty burnt out and I just kind of left uni. And I got good grades in my honors thesis. And so I thought about going back and doing a PhD, but I didn't because this job kind of found me ultimately through a variety of like twists and turns and all that sort of stuff.
Chris Potts:
So you've gone through at this stage 13 years of school education, four years of university studies and still at that precise point in time, not a lot of insights as to what you wanted to do for the rest of your life.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Exactly.
Chris Potts:
Rather than eliminating a few choices perhaps.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Well, yes, exactly. That's right. So along the way I worked out what I didn't want to do, really I think. So this is like a good like foray sort of how my career really started. So I left uni and I don't want to say floundered around. I just kind of explored stuff, I mean, I had this job in uni where I was doing, working in like a call center doing surveys for the government. So I had this job, absolutely nothing wrong with it. I really enjoyed it actually at the time, but it just wasn't the thing that I knew I wanted to do. So again, to what you said I was like eliminating things. So I wanted to get a job doing something with language and there was this job that came up also at Melbourne uni for a job working for the university website.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
And it was like a department that was technically within the University of Melbourne library, oh library I should say to all the list is here. I am living in America right now. So I say some of these words, but it was like technically part of the University of Melbourne library and I was doing this job and I got this job, basically what it was, was like working with old school professors in academics and lecturers to help them understand how do you write your course material for a website as opposed to like a printed binder. Now, one thing that I do know about a uni education these days is that most stuff is digital. You don't really go and buy a big binder of essays, but when I was in uni and I'm showing my age here a little bit, you had to like buy this binder of essays, perhaps. You get the textbook and then you get this binder that the professor has made. So this was at the beginning of making things digital, but professors just didn't understand that writing for a website, it was a little different to writing for print. So I had to sort of understand and work with them to communicate that to them and help them through it. An example, the sorts of things was just like, "Okay. You might want to think about breaking this one long page into three separate pages based on sections, or maybe have section headers, so it's a little easy to read on the screen." Stuff like that, or bullet points are going to be more readable. And that was okay, sorry [crosstalk 00:14:34].
Chris Potts:
You can be right in saying, this must be like what? 2008-9 I assume. Weren't textbooks telling you how to do this? You were sort of making it up as you were going?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So there are some words that I'm going to use from here on now. One that I've already sort of touched on UX, the letter U the letter X, which stands for user experience, but it's a concept that's been around for maybe 20 plus years. Usability is something else which is more about like how broadly usable can we make something, be it like a physical thing like a laptop or a coffee machine or a website, right? And there were lots of books about UX and usability, but they didn't really talk about like language, but they had some interesting things. So I could sort of glean some things from that, but really, yeah you're right, I was making it up as I was going along and yet, and I did that job for like a year and a half, nearly two years, I think.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
But what I realized in doing the job again, like this was the early mid 2000s, right? Or be the 2000s really. This was important that making sure that websites... So at that point, it was really just websites. The iPhone was brand new and app design was still like novelty stuff. It was like, I don't know if anyone, no one listening, a lot of people listening to this might not remember, but the height of iPhone apps was like a fake cigarette lighter I think. You remember this for sure Chris.
Chris Potts:
Absolutely.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Some of the younger listeners might not, but that was like the extent of it, right? Facebook was really just ramping up all that. It was just like a different world, but I realized I'm like, this is important. I didn't necessarily think this is a career in itself, but I was like, "I can probably get other jobs for at least the near term like helping people just write stuff to their websites."
Ben Barone-Nugent:
But anyway, I did that for a year and a half and then I was like, "Okay. Universities are kind of slow moving, frustrating places to work in some sense." And it was a good job and I liked the people I worked with. It was a pretty chill kind of job actually, but I wanted to go and work maybe with like consumer products, right? So when I say consumer products think like just for like the simplest thing, something like Telstra or Nike, something like that. Something that you would see ads for, you can go in and buy a product from them.
Chris Potts:
Got it.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So I wanted to sort of work in that realm. Again, but I didn't have like a big portfolio of writing examples that I'd done. So it was hard to go to like a design agency or an ad agency and get a copywriter job.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
But I found this, and this is hilarious, this little company that was started by a husband and wife, and this all they did, the only thing they did was manage some medium sized businesses, Facebook pages in Australia. It's hilarious, like who were their clients. It was like birds bees and that, there was like pizza joint that had like a thing in South Yarra and on Brunswick Street, Bimbos Deluxe. So we managed that thing. So it was a bunch of these just like random brands that they've been like, "Hey, for like 500 bucks a month, 2000 bucks a month, 5,000 bucks a month, we'll manage your Facebook page and Twitter." And I was their first employee and they ran out of their house in Coburg and I interviewed for them and they were like, "Yeah. We'll hire you." Whatever.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
I'm like, "All right, fine." They're paying like minimum wage or whatever it was, it was like 36 grand a year at that point, which was great. I was like super excited about it. It was like, "Wow." My first copywriter job. And it was hellish. So because the office was at their house I'd show up and they'd answer the door in their pajamas. They still smelled like they just woke up and which was terrible and they had these like domestic arguments and it was just like... I did it for about five months and I was like, "I could not do this anymore." But the great thing about it was, and honestly the lesson I would impart a lot of people here is that it allowed me to start to prove that I could do something that opened a lot of doors for me.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Honestly without that I wouldn't be here because I was able to show to a subsequent employer, "Look, I can write for a consumer brand. I can think about like, what are the brand's goals? And create something that matches that." But I got another job at a pretty big design agency that at that point it was called DT Digital in Melbourne. They had like a couple hundred employees. They had some great... They had some amazing brands. They were doing all of NABs like digital work. So they were doing iPhone apps and iPad apps and they all like brand new and website work, which was super cool. They had like Honda and Maya just like great big, well known brand. So it was like a dream come true at that point. I'm like, "Wow, okay. This is my job now. This is amazing and I will handle it [crosstalk 00:18:57]."
Chris Potts:
And crucial to getting that was the five months you spent going to these people's house in Coburg.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Yeah. Smelling them as they woke up. That was... You already know me getting that job, which was fine. Honestly, at that point in my career, I'm like I just kind of knew that I needed to do it, but in retrospect I'm like, "No, I really need to do it." But my job title there was copywriter and it was great, but I was like on a team there that didn't really just trying to feel itself out. So I had a lot of leeway to sort of define my own job, which was cool. And the one thing that I really enjoyed doing was working with what at that time called UX designer. They were basically the people who were designing apps versus like instead of designing print and advertisements, they were designing websites and apps.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So UX is really a thing about digital, but that's sort of what they were doing and that was cool. And I really enjoyed that process. I really enjoyed working with those people. So I just like can with them more and more instead of just write like web pages and think about buttons and what you put into the menu or the navigation of a website or an app. And that was just really rewarding. And as I did that more and more, I went back to my manager and was like, "My job title shouldn't be copywriter. That makes me sound like I'm doing ads. It should be UX writer." And I just kind of like thought of that, It was like the theory UX designer, I should be a UX writer, right? And they're like, "Yeah. That makes sense. You change your title later." Nobody really cares.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
I'm getting more money for it or anything, but it meant a lot because I could focus in on this thing that I like. Now there were people out there doing what I did, but they typically went by the term, the name content strategist, which is still a job title that exists, right? That was my job title at Facebook actually, but I didn't feel like really captured what I did and I still believe that. So anyway, I did that for a long time. I worked at a bunch of other different design firms around Melbourne. Around 2013 I was like, "You know what? I just want to change. I want to work on even like this bigger stuff if I can." I started applying for stuff in New York, got a job at another design firm out there called R/GA, which was really cool.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
I was trying to catch myself doing the American accent thing. That was really great. Worked on a global rollout for Samsung's content sort of voice guidelines. We talk about this in the industry sometimes, which is what is like a brand or product voice. What is the tone that we want to convey through an interface, that sort of thing. So did that for Samsung globally, which is really fun and then did that for a little while, got a job at Facebook, helped build out the team at Facebook in New York, which was really fun. It was a much smaller team, much more a company back then. Did that for three and a half years and since then I've been at Netflix, kind of brings me to today, but that's kind of how I fumbled my way into this job.
Chris Potts:
Which is quite incredible, isn't it? To think that of all the people that make their way to LA and work in the Silicon Valley sort of world, I guess, and all these tech apps and things like that, it's that the journeys are there could be from anywhere including linguistics sort of major.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Well, that's it. You're exactly right. When I think about how I ended up here, it was one part being thoughtful and strategic about what I wanted to do with my career and my life and my time, but it was also just sort of like following my instincts about things, right? It was about saying, "Look deep down. I feel like there's something here." When I think back to that job that I had at Melbourne uni writing for the website, helping people write for the website, I should say, but I also had to do a lot of the writing. It was like I recognized this is important. Now I didn't necessarily know what that meant at the time that, that would mean that now there's a career for that sort of thing. But for like here is a great example of how quickly like a new job can come out of nowhere.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
When I left Australia I probably knew literally everybody doing what I was doing at the time in the country. There was probably maybe 20 to 30 people in Australia doing UX writing or content strategy, bunch of Australia posts. There were a couple scattered throughout the banks and there were a bunch of these sort of design agencies. There weren't many and that was fine. It felt big at the time. And even when I was at Facebook, there were 35 people at Facebook doing the same job as me and that felt crazy, right?
Chris Potts:
That's huge [inaudible 00:22:56].
Ben Barone-Nugent:
And the Facebook team, it was 35 when I joined in 2015, 500 people doing what I do now. So this is not like some... When I started it, it was like a job that I really had to explain to people and now it's just like another design tech job. And that's interesting and things change fast, right?
Chris Potts:
That's outstanding, those numbers. Is there a typical path to this? Are most people like you and they've taken that same journey?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
So yes and no. I mean, a lot of people in they do what I do have come from a bunch of different backgrounds, but they're all kind of similar. A lot of them have... Like most of them have come from copywriting and ad agencies or design agencies like I do. So there's a degree you can do called library sciences, which is something that a lot of people who do what I do have studied. And the reason for that is that if you study to be a librarian and what you're doing is not really a customer service role, if managing there's massive catalog of stuff, right? And making sure you can find the most precise thing in that huge group of things, right? Which is actually, when you think about is how kind of websites and apps and software work, especially from this information perspective. A good app or a good website, everything is organized really systematically and consistently and in a way that resonates with human brain.
Chris Potts:
I presume not via the Dewey Decimal System.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
No, not so much anymore. No, not really. But so yes and no. Now there are universities and schools that will offer a course in content design or UX. You can do it as unit, maybe not a major, but like certainly as a unit, especially at big design schools like the Pratt Institute out in New York City and the Rhode Island School of Design. The standard now had classes in UX writing because it is a real like discipline that you can do. And on the side of this, I do a lot of mentorship for younger people or people transitioning from one career into this one. And I encourage anyone listening to reach out to me. I'd be more than happy to set up time and Chris, I'll make sure you've got those details, so you can [crosstalk 00:24:58].
Chris Potts:
Absolutely, yes. If people can reach out to us on our social, then we'll get them in touch with you. That's awesome.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Perfect. That sounds great. But it's like a thing that people are really interested in.
Chris Potts:
Yeah, absolutely. All right. I'd like to finish just with three very quick answers and I haven't given you any warning of these ones, but the first one being anything you would do differently.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Great question. And look, I mean, I don't think there would be honestly, I mean, I think that when you look back over a career or a life used and I'm only 35, I'm not like an old soul yet, but I mean, you start to realize that things and decisions you've made sort of don't happen for a... Like some predetermined reason, but they kind of lead you in a direction. Had I not like made some of those mistake even like choosing to do like specialist math in year 11, I don't think I'd be here. So, I mean, there are always refinements, little things that I wish I've done differently, taking an opportunity that I missed or something like that, but overall not really. I think that I'm glad that I sort of balanced my passions against being pragmatic. I don't know. No real regrets.
Chris Potts:
Nice one. Very good. That's good to hear. I being one of the first person to pave the way into your career in industry, it's hard to say I would've done anything differently because there wasn't a predetermined path, was there?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Maybe it would've been, but hard to say, right?
Chris Potts:
Absolutely. A piece of advice you would pass on to someone listening.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
I think the best advice I could give you is be honest with yourself about what you do in your life. I think that is something that's actually really, really hard to do, especially when you are young and in a formative stage of your career. And watching it, that I was surrounded by good people who told me that they could see I was not doing something that was true to kind of what I wanted. I know that not everyone is as fortunate as me in that regard. So I really encourage everyone to like take stock about like are you doing something that excites you, that you think is the right thing for you? Or are you doing something because you feel like that's what other people expect of you? Now, this is a hard thing to really like land, but I really want you to meditate on that because it's important. Like getting that as right as you possibly can, can help a lot.
Chris Potts:
And it makes that journey so much more enjoyable even if you don't know where you're going, but it's heading somewhere that is in a field that you love, that's something that you get joy out of every day. It's got to make that journey of uncertainty that little bit easier.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Exactly right. It was a very much like an inner Melbourne kind of upbringing where it was like well, a lot of people are being lawyers and that sort of thing and this, that, or the other. And that's a real pressure that I think kids feel and I certainly felt. It's hard to push back against that, but really what I want people to take away is that I didn't have a grand plan, and I don't want to say that everything will work out, but I think that if you do follow that passion, it does open opportunities. And if you're reflective on those things and thoughtful about them, you will start to recognize different pathways that you can take. And the world is an exciting dynamic changing place, I mean, as you kind of heard things can change on a dime and just like could be the difference of five years and then there's a job that never existed before and suddenly you can make a living doing that. That's cool.
Chris Potts:
It is cool, isn't it?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Yeah.
Chris Potts:
It's cool. And not something everyone embraces, so it's terrific.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Exactly.
Chris Potts:
Very last one for you is, what's next for you?
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Good question. I don't know. I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing right now. I spent a lot of time thinking about, how can I play my part in cementing this kind of discipline in this job that I do and making it feel more robust and formalized? One thing that I'm really interested in is how can we bring more voices into this trade that I do? Because if we're working for global products in increasingly diversified countries with lots of different people, from lots of different backgrounds, we need to people from those different backgrounds to be thinking about the way those products and brands and apps and services sound, right? I have one context and I have a limited context and I know I don't know everything. So I'm really interested in like how can we do that? And how can I help bring more people into it? So again, like on anyone and everyone who's interested, or just curious like reach out via the socials that Chris has and connect with me, because I'd be interested to share more and be more about you, but that's kind of where my head's at right now.
Chris Potts:
I love it. I think it's terrific. And I think that's been an incredibly informative bit of time out of my data to hear a bit about what you do and [crosstalk 00:29:21] for our listeners as well. And thank you so much for being so generous with your time, your thoughts and sharing that with us.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
No, Chris, thank you so much for having me. I think that honestly, this is the sort of conversation that is going to with whoever and everyone is going to really help people and I'm just really proud to be a part of this. So thanks again.
Chris Potts:
No, thank you. And every time I hit that play something from now on I'll think back to this [crosstalk 00:29:44] conversation.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
And let me know if it doesn't work, I'll get that fixed for you.
Chris Potts:
Very good. Thanks very much.
Ben Barone-Nugent:
Cheers Chris.
Chris Potts:
So thank you for hanging around till the end of that discussion. I hope you got as much out of that as I did, I for one was just enjoyed everything that he had to share with us. I loved his message around following your passion. The fact that he took on this career journey from when he finished school with no idea, no possible understanding of where the world might take him and where this career choice will take him. But he still knew that this was something he loved that if he loved it and followed it strong enough that something would come of it. I think we can all agree that something incredible interesting has. And I'd like to thank once again, Ben for giving us his time and sharing his story with us. And I'd like to thank you for joining us. This has been another episode of Careers Night. Please share us with your friends, family, and anyone who you think might be interested in starting their career journey.