Left-Handed Journeys

Mistress Hecuba on trauma work and BDSM

February 05, 2022 Jera Brown Season 1 Episode 8
Left-Handed Journeys
Mistress Hecuba on trauma work and BDSM
Show Notes Transcript

Mistress Hecuba explores intimacy through cathartic pain and alarming psychodrama. BDSM is a structure that holds the space for the bizarre, the uncomfortable, and any lustful perversions that are either raging to be seen or lying dormant in the depths of the psyche. Some of her favorite forms of play teach her new things and push against the boundaries and limits of her submissives. She seeks an experience with her submissives and craves to see them in all their complexity and raw humanity. 

In this episode, we talk about how we attempt to create safe spaces to play with shame and trauma in professional BDSM sessions and how the concepts of play, power, trust and control fit into it. Mistress Hecuba talks about sadism as an identity and where spirituality fits into the picture.

Follow Mistress Hecuba on Twitter @mistresshecuba

Follow Jera on Twitter: @thejerabrown or Instagram: @thejerabrown
Email: jera@jerabrown.com

Jera Brown:

So let me just say a little bit about how I met and got to know Mistress Hecuba. This fellow pro-domme and I started this in-person social for fellow pro-dommes in Chicago. And let me just say that everybody was awesome. It's an intriguing group of people, Mistress Hecuba included. And I think right away, we talked about getting coffee, which, you know, just like never happens when you say that. Like, it's so hard, because we live in different parts of the city, and we're super busy between clients and other work. But I'm super grateful that I've had the chance of working with her in a couple of ways. We've seen clients together and and done double sessions ... ahhh ... it's such an insight into, you know, the way that somebody works and it can be so awe-inspiring just to see how they work with clients and Hecuba was no exception. Just like the what she pulls outwe've only seen one client, but like what she pulled out of him. And then we've recorded together. And the reason I bring all this up is recording these films and audio files together... Mistress Hecuba has a very specific, delightful, very creative form of sadism that doesn't always come out with everybody. Like it's mental and weird. And she talks a lot about the beauty of the perverse in such a way that the perverse becomes a spiritual experience. I've talked a lot about shadow play on this podcast because I think that that's where...that's super what the left handed journey is all about. Like if you're going to explore desires, you're going to explore the dark sides of things. The things that scare us. And I would consider Mistress Hecuba an expert in the things that... learning how to love the things that we fear. So I want to set that up. So Hecuba, to start, we've heard a little bit about who you are. What do you think attracts specific clients to you? And what is a good client for you?

Hecuba:

Hmm, um, well, first, thank you for having me on. Can you hear me?

Jera Brown:

Yes! I am getting my dog water. I muted, but yes, my pleasure.

Hecuba:

I would say the clients that are attracted to me are the ones who really want to explore deep humiliation and degradation and also their own masochism. Though a lot of my clients would not call themselves masochists. They would call themselves, terminology that we use, slut, bitch, worm, those sorts of things to really... you know sort of say, how they feel about themselves in their service. And so there's a lot of, I would say, shame work that they're wanting to do. And I think because that's something that really interests me about kink. I project it. And even though I don't say specifically, like, ... no, that's not true. I have done some marketing, where I'm like, fuck your shame!

Jera Brown:

Totally.

Hecuba:

But I think because taboo is a major motivator for me, along with power exchange ... control is my oldest and biggest fetish. I think that they're drawn to, I think they're drawn to that. Just because there's so much similarity and a lot of my, I would say more involved clients, you know, the ones who are really routinely looking for an interaction with me and wanting to really go into deeper places and really want to please me and help me make my life better. Those are really like the quality clients and a lot of them are really very much into degradation.

Jera Brown:

Yeah, is the shame work the spiritual part for you? And I'm curious, like, what I really want to ask you is like, how can degradation play be spiritual for you?

Hecuba:

Yeah. Well, you said it really well just now in the introduction ... well I'll say this: Sometimes it's really hard for me to use words to describe my thoughts, around just all of the interplay, the just beautiful interplay of benefits that we get from going to uncomfortable places, and how all of those things fit into spirituality ... it's really, like it's sort of outside my wheelhouse to some degree. But I will definitely say that playing with shame in a roleplay, specifically in a power dynamic, it creates a space where you are free and supported at the same time. That structure, that BDSM structure, it gives you that freedom to dip your toe ... I don't know, you can dip your toe into the shallow end, or cannonball into the deep end, and see what happens. But someone is there with you, you know, kind of almost like the lifeguard of a pool, if we're going to do the pool analogy. You know, like a lifeguard, I'm informed about safety, I can pull you out of the pool, I can yell at you to stop running on the deck of the pool, you know, just sort of all the things that lifeguards do ... save your life, you know, God forbid. But I feel like, because that space is existing within a power dynamic, and the focus really is on the submissive focusing on me and what I want. Over time, you're really ... if we're truly working together, the ego has to take a backseat. Theirs does. Mine does too. It's not just the submissive. In order to do this work, I mean, you know this, you have to put your ego to the side completely. There cannot be, there's just no room, or you know, you just need to be really aware of when it pops up for you. But with the ego being put to the side, they're in a much more meditative place. They're able to kind of get outside their head, outside of their needs and their wants, and they're just following me. And that creates a lot of space for, you know, hopefully, some freedom to fall into those places that are normally avoided As we do, through our day we feel something come up, we want to avoid it. But there's that safety, when you can find it, when you find a dominant who you feel like really is a good helper in those instances. You know, and obviously, specifically, this is a very specific kind of play. But I think in any kind of kink play, you can have these moments. But I think that when it's going well, and there is that freedom to fall into those holes, that as a top, witnessing that, and hopefully, you know, we're in this energy exchange where they feel supported, and that they can go and sort of do these more scary things.

Jera Brown:

It reminded me of the scene, and I forget which Star Wars movie, where Luke is working with Yoda. And there's the dark part of the forest that he's super trapped...

Hecuba:

Yeah. Yeah,

Jera Brown:

But what's interesting is, you know, like, Yoda tells him like ... I think this is right,that it's a place he has to go alone?

Hecuba:

Mm hmm.

Jera Brown:

Which is, it's sort of now, looking back, it's like, no, no, you don't you don't have to do any of that by yourself. Like, where does that come from? That we have to do the dark work alone.

Hecuba:

Yeah, well, I think I mean, I can see how ... so for me when I saw that part in the movie I thought that Luke was still supported by Yoda. Like, that's really dark work, you know, when it all comes down to it, we are alone. But when you know that there's somebody waiting outside the cave, and has kind of led you to this seemingly scary place, but that in order to really kind of discover who you are ... I don't know if we're pulling way more out of this than George Lucas' intentions ...

Jera Brown:

We are not the first to philosophize.

Hecuba:

Yeah, yeah, but I mean I kind of thought that Yoda had his back regardless of whether Luke died in that moment or not, like that wasn't really like... you know, we're all gonna die at some point. But knowing that there's a little green dude waiting for you outside the cave if you make it back out. I mean,

Jera Brown:

You know, I guess thinking about it, like if that's... that's a headspace, right? You can guide somebody, maybe to that headspace, but ultimately, clients have to be able to come to us and know what they need.

Hecuba:

Yeah, it's a big ask, it is, and what I'm describing is kind of like what I want, what I'm going for, ideally, but that doesn't always happen and definitely doesn't happen the first time I play with someone. I mean, I haven't had that experience yet. First time, it's usually kind of like figuring out, you know what their body, what their mind is going to do. Because everybody fibs on their application to some degree, so...

Jera Brown:

I definitely have had things go there, like intentionally. Clients have come to me saying, like, I want to be punished for this thing, or I want to explore this thing. And I'm like, well buckle your seatbelt! Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, you know. Cuz I don't know. I love interrogation scenes, like so much.

Hecuba:

Yeah, no, they are so good. They are so good. That pulling... sometimes the whole ... I don't know why, but the whole notion even though ... okay, so I am super... and I don't know if we can say this, like, I'm super into, rape play. I just absolutely love it. And I'm actually now starting to attract submissives who are really into this idea of like, either being forced or being taken or something like that. But... I lost my train of thought there. My brain kind of was like, oooh rape play. Okay, yeah, I apologize.

Jera Brown:

No. So, I don't know, it seems like a big ask to ask you to talk about, what attracts you about it? I don't know, are you up for that?

Hecuba:

Oh, yeah. Um, so I am a sadomasochist. Like, specifically, my earliest memories are of sticking my finger into a light socket. Now this is back in the 70s, so the lights sockets, the holes were a lot bigger and so you know, a toddler could get their finger into it. And I would sit there and I would just routinely zap myself and get in trouble for it, for some odd reason. I'm not sure why. But well, I mean, it's not a good idea for kids to be doing that, but being punished for it always seemed weird. But I am very much into the physical and the mental aspects of the, you know, emotional or physical pain. And I do have trauma in my background. And I definitely think that kink has allowed me a place to play with it. Like a toy almost. Sort of objectively picking something up and observing it and looking at it and thinking, what can I keep here? And what do I really just don't benefit from at all you know, and therapy did the bulk of work, of sort of skills, as far as objectively looking at painful events and things like that. But kink has really been the place where I would say a vast amount of my growth has come from just because I am a sadomasochist. And the way that I experience things are, it's ... I learn more from doing things physically. And I feel like when I'm in the dungeon with someone, I can pick and choose what I want to get into mentally or physically and explore it, you know, because dominance professional dominance it's going to be a little different, you're really responsible there. You need your A game as much as possible. But there are still opportunities to really delve, either watching someone experience something, and you know, something comes up for you. I mean, obviously, there's not time to process it right then and there. But you're definitely like, oh, that's interesting. You kind of put it away in a box and then later, maybe journal about it or think about it, turn it around in your head or come back to it again later in another session and kind of explore. And a lot of these are just sort of ephemeral, emotional states that, you know, I explore. A lot of it is from watching submissives be degraded. And it's not that we're reenacting anything like that, because most of the play is, you know, I'm transforming somebody into a rubber doll or a puppy or a baby or a sissy or something like that. And so it's not going back in trying to recreate anything from my past, it's more, let's get into... however we can, let's hack this emotional state, let's see if we can get into it via alternative means. And get in there and kind of sit in all of its messiness. And then step out, and then step back in and the bonus with a lot of kink play is that you can incorporate physical pleasure or pain, and for me as a sadomasochists, pain and pleasure are sometimes so closely linked, that it's hard to pick them apart. But yeah, I don't know if that answered your question.

Jera Brown:

Yeah, I think so. Like it was a very circuitous, right? We're talking about rape play ...

Hecuba:

Yeah.

Jera Brown:

And it leads to sort of two questions or thoughts, one being that it feels like there's, often in society like these, quote unquote, appropriate ways to work with trauma, and then inappropriate ways to work with trauma, right? And kink is often considered like a dangerous way of working with trauma or inappropriate. And I'm curious, like, what your ... Do you have just like this, built in inherent response to this sort of judgment about how you should work with trauma?

Hecuba:

Yeah. Well, first of all, if I'm working with someone, and even just with myself, like, I am not a therapist. I do not pretend to be one. I think because I've done a lot of work on myself, I know, the sort of boundary that a submissive tries to cross in order to sort of access you, for more intimacy. Or you know, sort of trying to get, a little bit more coddled or something like that. That they're trying to emotionally connect with you in some way, but it's slightly inappropriate. Like I know when that lines being crossed, and I will just sort of reassert so that they understand that they can't do that. And usually it takes like, once or twice, and obviously, if somebody is pushing a boundary, then it's like, you know what I think we're done. But I would say, for the most part, everyone is, I mean, at least the clients I try to bring to me and keep, understand these nuances as well, either from their own therapy, you know, skill building, because that's what therapy is just skill building, learning how to do all these little things that we're talking about. But as far as kink in trauma... working with somebody who has trauma around something, and they want to bring it into their kink play. Again, it's not reenacting anything. We're not trying to go back to that point where daddy, you know, did something or, you know, mommy ignored you. That, to me is not interesting. And it's also sounds... that's also just kind of is a bit scary, and not a good idea. That's for therapy. That's what that specialist who's able to, you know, with training, take you back and visit in this sort of very safe therapeutic environment. When I know that a client had a father who was homophobic, and let's say he's also bisexual and wants to explore humiliation around being a quote unquote, faggot. There's more than enough there to get him into the headspace that he's looking for. And you know, and nobody's... none of these clients that I have, are trying to get back to that trauma. What they want to do is... they want to be free to enjoy those feelings, that humiliation that they experienced that was sexualized when they were little. We naturally, as humans, will sexualize something that we don't understand. Kids do it all the time. But what we can do as adults is remove these parts, you know, take them out of their context, and play with them and bring it into a whole new scenario outside of this traumatic event, and kind of tinker with it in a way where you can almost do a little bit of rewiring. Like, yes, I am a queer person. This client I'm thinking of specifically, this bisexual person who was humiliated by his dad, he really wants to be humiliated around being secretive that he really likes dick. And he wants his mistress to just train him to be the best, you know, blowjob giver for her. And he will just do it for her. So he gets to experience the humiliation within this sort of sexual context. So he gets what he wants out of it. It really has the potential kink has the potential to really help us move through, (with some very good skills we've learned from therapy) bringing all of that stuff into this kink space, this structure, and rewrite some narratives and you know, some beliefs and behaviors that we have in the past and make new ones and grow from that.

Jera Brown:

I like that. I think the one thing that I would maybe push or push back on just slightly is that, um, I don't think that folks are necessarily trying to get back to a very specific trauma moment.

Hecuba:

Oh, yeah, no, no, yeah, no .. an emotion. Definitely not a moment. A feeling.

Jera Brown:

Right. Like there's the environment, or the feeling that is enveloped by trauma. That's what we play with. And sometimes, I don't know, I mean, you know, there are times where it's hard to know, if we're pushing too hard or not. But I think that so much of trauma is about a loss of control. I think what I love about kink is that it's a very intentional set of aspects of control that give it a sense of safety, and that we still have to be playing with somebody who takes it very seriously and...

Hecuba:

yeah, yeah

Jera Brown:

We have like this trust built up that, you know, they're not going to abuse this vulnerability.

Hecuba:

Yeah, that's why it's important to find somebody who you really connect with and can trust. Someone who demonstrates over and over, that they are interested in intentionally stepping into responsibility. That they assert their boundaries, because a lot of not just submissives, but people in general, they're sort of, like how kids do this, sort of push on a boundary to kind of see, you know, where the outer edges are. And that's, like, for me, why brats are actually kind of fun to play with, because they're so good at that, they're so good at sort of figuring out where it is they can exist and play. And then, of course, you know, they do it over and over again. But it's fun to watch. It's fun to watch. I don't find them problematic at all. I know the brats are not... I think they're misunderstood.

Jera Brown:

So thinking about control, I feel like I'm constantly shifting my relationship with the idea of control. You know, and this is gonna be like a weird tangent, but...

Hecuba:

Oh, wonderful!

Jera Brown:

Okay, great. So when I was going through a pretty bad breakup, a couple of years ago, I found this book by a Buddhist

teacher that I like:

Susan Piver, who wrote a book about healing from a broken heart. And it really helped me, like gave me the courage to break up with somebody, and then my next broken heart, like I read it, and it just helped ease that transition, you know? But there's this passage in it where she's talking to a friend of hers who's a translator of wisdom texts, and she asks him specifically in his lifelong study of the core teachings of all religions ... Okay, a lot of people believe that by thinking positively and expecting good things to happen, you can make things happen. So she asked him like is that an idea in the sacred texts. And here's his response that I've thought so much about: "The teaching of every one of the great sacred texts is that control is an illusion. When you understand that, ultimately, you are not the doer, you can step back from yourself. That is the only path to serenity. In other words, letting go of the illusion of control, and realizing that you have never had control in the first place, allows you to live in the most dazzlingly intelligent, beautiful and kind reality that you could ever have imagined. And beyond what you could have imagined." And I love this idea. And when I'm going through really hard time, this is this idea that I think like, well, the universe can take care of me, if I let it. And then of course, like I immediately end up getting hurt in some way. I feel like as a pro dom and as a kinkster, like, I really play with this idea of control of like, creating a safer space for somebody by setting up control mechanisms, and I create boundaries for myself, like, I've done other sex work that I was not comfortable with, because I didn't have the same amount of expected control over my body with them, you know? Like control has ... these avenues of control have given me so much confidence and insight. And yet there comes a point when it's like, but is controls still an illusion? And so I'm curious, just from your perspective, as someone who also like, dives into control from a pro do and a kinkster's perspective, like, I don't know... what do you think about this dichotomy of like, yeah, control being an illusion, but still being an asset?

Hecuba:

Yeah. I would say the control to me is kind of like: it operates almost like theater. But I don't know if that's the best analogy.

Jera Brown:

I like it though. That's interesting.

Hecuba:

But how, you know, these sort of various actors are participating in this farse. But that quote that you read, reminded me of this meme that I saw this morning, that was talking kind of about... it's this person on Twitter that I follow, their feed is pretty much about sort of those bigger concepts. That writer was talking about, concepts of control, and, you know, what does it mean to be human? And what is... you know, who are you? And what is personality? You know, what are all these really kind of ephemeral kind of concepts. And he shared this meme, it was hilarious. It's this stick figure drawing of a person sitting on the toilet, and I think it pretty much said, like, the universe says, "this is the only person who knows what they're doing". Is the person taking a poop. And I was like, yeah, that's really what we know is that we need to eat, we need to poop, we need to, you know, we need to interact with other people. And the rest of is like construct, it's theater, it's rituals, its traditions, its layers and layers and layers of people doing one thing one way and, you know, just sort of the organic process that society has. And I think that particularly, just does a really poetic job of turning all of that, you know, sort of exposing it for what it is. And in the best case scenario, equalizes everything, and reduces everything down to kind of like that guy on the toilet. And I also think that's why kink has this sort of... you know, when people think about kink, they kind of think about naughty, dirty, dark, you know, even though it doesn't need to be any of those things, but a lot of people think about BDSM, and people automatically think about like whips, you know, cruel intentions. But when it comes down to it, we're just acting out these fantasies, and these archetypes, these stereotypes, these social constructs that, you know, the concept of the slut, you know all of that, and those kinds of non-consensual, oppressive forms of control. Yeah, I mean, like, power is crazy. Power is real, and it's, you know, real in the sense of, we're all affected by it.

Jera Brown:

Yeah, like, control my be an illusion. Power definitely is not.

Hecuba:

Yeah. People are... you can think of a million examples of power and just how it's something we take for granted. And when I'm in a space with a submissive I do not take any of that for granted. I earn that. And that's something I remind submissives too, is that I earn this trust, you don't just give this to me. You know, submissive so quick to give me trust... It's like, I don't know. That's a red flag. It's like, I don't think you understand what's going on here. You know, like, I want to get to dark, deep, crazy, twisted messy shit, because that's where it's fun for me, and you just want to sort of dive into the deep end with me and without really getting to know me. Like, you know, what are we really doing here? Are you just kind of wanting to hump the leg of your fantasy, because that's not what I'm interested in, you can go do that with somebody else. You can go do that at home. Go watch some porn and go do that at home. Yeah, just somebody who doesn't really regard the... serious is kind of intense word here, but it is because your safety, your mental and your physical safety is, I mean, to me, it's paramount. And then, you know, I don't actually want someone to be destroyed. My main goal with play, professional play specifically, I mean, also my personal play, but in my professional play, it's really

pinpointed down to:

no matter how deep and fucked up it gets during our play, I want you to leave in a better state, whatever that looks like for you. And that's about it.

Jera Brown:

Okay, we talked a lot about play. All of this is play. And there's a book called Finite and Infinite games by James Carse. And he writes, "to be playful is not to be trivial or frivolous, or to act as though nothing of consequence will happen. On the contrary, when we are playful with each other, we relate as free persons, and the relationship is open to surprise. Everything that happens is of consequence. It is in fact, seriousness that closes itself to consequence. For seriousness, is a dread of the unpredictable, is a dread of the unpredictable outcome of open possibility. To be serious is to press for a specified conclusion, to be playful is to allow for possibility, whatever the cost to oneself."

Hecuba:

Yeah, it reminds me of this concept, or just this knowledge, that when kids are playing, they're not like, farting around and, you know, like, "Wee! Wee!". They are engaged. They are learning. It's a learning and growth experience when they're playing. They're trying things out, they're, you know, pretending to be a princess and what that might be like, they're pretending they're like a Time Lord. And they're, you know, they are invading another planet and what that might feel like. I don't know who said it, I think maybe it was Midori that said, you know, kink is basically childs play, but with just very, grown up toys.

Jera Brown:

Which is, as you put it, like not trivial. Yeah, no. So I want to come back to this. I think a lot of times in my podcast, I tried to directly bring in spirituality, when who the fuck knows what spirituality is or means? And I think for me, spirituality very specifically is like healing and loving work and service to others and stuff. But, it's also I think, this sense of, how do we get outside of our norm to experience life freshly, and learn how to experience joy and bliss, which takes play, you know, in some form. So I agree that, like, kink, often is seen as this very dark thing, and it can be, you know, we can go to those places. It doesn't even need to involve pain. And I went through this period where I was like, can we just use the framework of BDSM of like, negotiation, of creating scenes, and just find things that are delightful you know?

Hecuba:

Yeah! I love doing scenes where it's innocent. Even like doing age play, where you're just helping someone reparent themselves, you know, and the beauty and the innocence of the only thing that you need to worry about is finish your coloring book, you know, like, and having a snack while mommy's sitting next to you and, you know, telling you that she loves you. I mean fuck that's fun. But I would say that as a sadomasochists, for me, pain is an integral part of my experience, and I don't need it in my professional play, but I definitely need aspects of it in my personal play, whether it's emotional masochism or physical, but that's my experience. So yeah, when somebody is saying, pain doesn't need to be an important part of BDSM I'm like, yeah, totally. But for me, it's an essential part. It's an essential part for me. It's like I was saying before, the pleasure and the pain are almost woven together. I've been trying to meet more sadomasochists and actually, I just stumbled across three in the same day, and they're all women within the Midwest area and I'm like we got to meet! Because I've been wanting to talk to other sadomasochists about just their own experience around what is pleasurable and what is painful. What's good pain, what's bad pain. And you know, how do you know the difference? Those are really interesting questions to me. But yeah kink can be a place where it is just joy. And that's wonderful. That's wonderful. I love that kink can be so expansive and include everyone. And I'm not trying to create some sort of like linear scale of like hierarchy, where a light spanking or calling you lover daddy is one end and then hanging from a hook is another, that's definitely not it. Because to do that would be to just kind of squash everything else that's just beautiful and glorious about kink. But I think, yeah, there are ranges but all of it is good. I still don't quite understand sort of, you know, what is considered kinky? I mean, vanilla for me, it basically consists of acts that are okay in a PG 13 movie. Like that's kind of my definition of vanilla. And that's really narrow. It's really really narrow. It's basically penetrative sex, and kissing.

Jera Brown:

I wrote this feminist guide to BDSM for Rebellious magazine and I stole two quotes of BDSM and kink from people I love. So in their new bottoming book Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy, interestingly defined S&M as "play, theater, communication, intimacy, sexuality. It combines the child's urge for make belive with the adults ability to take responsibility, and the adults privilage of sexual reward."

Hecuba:

Yeah that's right. I missed that when I was kind of giving that same kind of definition before, like the adult sense of responsibility really is essential in that it's not just kids playing with adult toys. There's that extra layer that's very essential there.

Jera Brown:

And in Playing Well with Others, Mo Williams and Lee Harrington, they defined kink as "shorthand for the great big world of sexual adventure, including but not limited to voyeurism, exhibitionism fetishism fantasy role playing, cross dressing, power exchange swinging leather identity, erotic restraint, consensual non monogamy, naughty sex and BDSM between consenting adults. In short, the realm of sexuality perceived to be outside the mainstream." So a lot of ground.

Hecuba:

Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. It's so much more vast and Yeah. I think when we talk about kink, well, we're redefining sex glorious and beautiful than this narrow select few items that are okay, you know, within society. It's like... like this tiny... it's not even like an iceberg metaphor. It's even more extreme than that because you know, an iceberg you can see quite a bit above and you know there's a bunch of below but it feels like with vanilla... I don't know what we're talking about. I guess we're specifically talking about sex because there's so much more going on in the kink world as far as like, yeah, there's the sex stuff, but then there's everything else. to begin with. We're redefining what's erotic. There's nearly always an erotic connection right? Like, it's not just like romantic relationships. I don't know that we ever describe a romantic relationship as kinky unless it we're doing something kinky in that relationship right? Right. Right. You're like you're reenacting, like toxic attachments, your relationship, your dynamic is based on like, toxic codependency, which is really fun. Really, really fun.

Jera Brown:

It reminds me of a scene in 30 Rock, where, I don't remember the character's names. There's the blonde character, that's sort of like the slut in the show, you know, and then she ends up dating this crossdresser that likes to dress like her. And they get into this really committed relationship, and then they start to just have like, a normal relationship, you know, like, where they watch tv and go to bed. And they become terrified of it. And they're like, "Oh, we're normalizing!" And they like, turn it into a kink to be okay with it. You know, I just love it so much.

Hecuba:

I have not watched 30 Rock, but now it makes me want to watch it. Now I kind of want to find that. That's really funny.

Jera Brown:

I love it. I won't ruin the rest of it then for you. But yeah, I mean, I think there are some of us that are like, "Oh, dear God, I don't want normal!", you know, and can be terrified of it when I mean, it's actually... it's not that anything that's conventional is bad.

Hecuba:

Yeah, yeah, how kink relationships look, sometimes they look completely vanilla. But there's this underlying agreement that, you know, every Sunday, they go out and swap partners with another couple or whatever, or you know, there's an agreement where one of them always has to ask before they can have an orgasm, you know, this sort of like, hey, the rest of their relationship looks pretty normal, but there's this tweak. But you know, I look at my own relationships. I'm not in... I mean, I have play partners, but I don't have any real... I mean, COVID done a number on all of us, but I'm not in any dynamics right now. Because I really like 24/7 play. And a lot of time, you know, if somebody would look at us, they wouldn't say like, Oh, my God, like they're totally a kinky couple. But I think that what's going on there is, you know, one, you still have to go to work and pay your bills and participate in society, you know, get your kids from school, go see your grandparents, you know, whatever. And I think in 24/7, relationships, specifically, sustaining your role as the Dark Lord... I know I keep bringing up the Dark Lord, I don't know why I keep saying Dark Lord, but I think I've said it several times now. But you know, you can't maintain that all the time. It's hard. Maintaining that role is difficult. And it's more fun for me, as somebody who enjoys 24/7 play, to integrate all of my kinks in just to who I am. You can still within 24/7 relationships or dynamics, you can still do scenes, and so on. But you know, a lot of the more successful relationships that I've seen, and the better ones that I've had, are when all of our kinks are integrated into the relationship in a sort of variety of sliding scale ways where... one time I had somebody wear diapers under their pants once, nobody knew it was going on, but he knew! He knew he was wearing one. But it's kind of like kinky people are like double agents in the vanilla world. We're sly motherfuckers. We're doing things that a lot of society just doesn't want to look at or understand. So you know, in order to be safe, we disguise them. Safe being that sort of extreme example. I think a lot of times kink has become a lot more mainstream,

Jera Brown:

Depends on the kink right?

Hecuba:

It depends on the kink! I think a lot of times people would think even like a diaper would just be like, "Absolutely not!". But you know, it's this object that exists for people to pee in it and what? Since I don't need them if I wear them then that's somehow problematic?

Jera Brown:

Right? All right, I could keep.. we could both keep talking about this forever, but I think I'm gonna end it here on the diapers.

Hecuba:

Good place to end it!

Jera Brown:

Yeah. Once again, thank you so much for doing this. It has been delightful. And I think we just covered fresh ground so I really appreicate it.

Hecuba:

It's been really fun talking about this with you, as always you're a delight to talk with.

Jera Brown:

Thank you