Authentic Conversations with Colleagues: Thinking about Art, Music, and Dance with Young Children - with Victoria Armstrong

Victoria, owner of Side by Side Consulting Services, is a skilled thinking partner for early childhood educators and brings many rich experiences and wisdom to this 2-part conversation. In this episode, and part 1, we engage is an authentic, reflective, and open conversation to explore our experience with, and our ideas about young children's experiences with art, music, and dance. We discuss parallel practices of play, the importance of building relationships with high quality materials, and the influence of time in getting to know materials such as clay or a guitar. If you're curious about how you can support and honour children's expression through various art forms, this episode is for you!

Transcript

Kim Barton  0:00  
You're saying how Yeah, educators need time to play.

Victoria Armstrong  0:03  
Facilitator say, Okay, we're done with this now we're gonna move on. Let's go

Kim Barton  0:17  
Welcome to the playful podcast, where we discuss lifelong learning and leisure by lingering at the intersection of recreation, education and occupation. I'm your host, Kim Barton. Welcome to the journey. I'm excited to play and learn along with you. Welcome, everybody to Episode Nine. This episode is titled authentic conversations with colleagues thinking about art, music and dance with young children. And in this episode, I am happy to be hosting a conversation with my colleague, mentor friend, Victoria Armstrong, Victoria is a force to be reckoned with. She has deeply thought about pedagogy, thinking alongside educators. And she's worked for a long time in some leadership capacities within the Early Years communities in Ontario, and she is an absolute wealth of knowledge. She is the owner of side by side consulting services. And this conversation is actually divided into two parts. So this part one is going to be us talking about the arts. And then part two will come out. And it's us talking a little bit more about pedagogical documentation, and just some of our related experiences. Now, in this episode, we're so lucky to hear Victoria's perspectives on art with young children. We think deeply together about building relationships with artistic materials, including visual art, supplies, instruments, things like that. And we ponder things like the influence of time on playing with materials, and how that influences children in expressing their ideas through the materials. Victoria has very clearly deeply thought about how art can support children and expressing their ideas, and the importance of quality materials to respect those ideas. And then we have some fun talking about dance and music. I hope this conversation inspires you to try new things or old things with young children in your program too.

The first thing was I remember what I was gonna say before, and it was about how, in our one conversation, I had been trying to latch on to different pedagogies, right, I was like, oh, nature based pedagogy, art paced pedagogy, and, you know, how do they overlap? When do I use what? And you asked me this question that I haven't stopped thinking about since and you brought it back to the image of the child, and how that can be like our guiding compass, rather than a particular, like pedagogy can be a tool, rather than the type of pedagogy doesn't need to be our compass, we just use what we need, based on her image of the child and different experiences that they're working through. Yeah, educators need time to think together. Time to play, like, I, I think, and I hope that that's my, those are like my values. As an educator, I think it's easy for me to forget that like, that still has to be a parallel practice, I can get to intellectual I guess, is what I'm thinking. I can sit here and read like books and books and books and forget to play, go play with materials, figure out how we've been doing a lot of thinking about steam in my workplace. So science, technology, engineering, art and math. So I'm learning how to code and use robots. I'm like, This is what I'm supposed to be doing. I was supposed to be playing. So it's like, I, you know, I'll never stop being somebody who loves to kind of theorize and, you know, have a research question and stuff like that. But just playing with the materials is so important, I guess,

Victoria Armstrong  4:09  
totally. Well, I think you I think you need both as an educator in the field, like I think, you know, when you have for example, you know, if you're in a organization or in a place of work, where you know, you have leaders, pedagogical leaders, who, you know, give you as an educator opportunities to, not just, you know, reflect on documentation together, but give you moments where you get to play and experiment with materials and learn how to code and all of those different kinds of things. I think what's valuable is like the time to play and to be in that moment, but then I think what needs to be coupled with that is also kind of that time to one just be in the space and not really think about anything other than just being in that space and being with the materials being With the other people that you're with in that experience, and then after you have kind of ample amount of time to do that, then being able to kind of like reflect on that whole process and think about and pull out kind of nuggets from that, because I feel like clay for example, right, if you have an opportunity as an educator to play with clay and to, and to just spend time getting to know it, it gives you such a different perspective, when you see children experiencing clay for the first time, right, I think it gives you an opportunity to move beyond maybe if you don't, like mess or you don't like you know certain things because you've had that time to experience and to explore that material, it gives you a different understanding for how children may be experiencing this material to or, you know, when you've been maybe working with a material and you've had other adults that you're collaborating with to and you guys have been problem solving, or you've had very different perspectives on how you want to work with that material. And you've had to kind of negotiate and maybe solve some conflicts or work through some some complex together. I feel like when you have ongoing opportunities to be able to do that, then you look at children's play and engagement with things differently, like with more compassion and more empathy, right? Like instead of just say, okay, so and so wants to turn now you need to let him have a turn. And you know, you need to let someone so share that, you know, so until it looks like they're feeling sad, can you go and say you're sorry, like, it's becomes such, I feel like a more deeper and meaningful response to children when you've said, You know what, I know that that material is really hard to work with. And I know that it really takes a lot like clay, for example, is a very physical material. Like I love clay for so many reasons. Even though I'm not a visual artist, when I first kind of explored it, I'm like, there's so much to it, like the whole sensory aspect, the whole you know, if you're a child that has very bodily kinesthetic and needs to move and needs to like it's a very physical material to there's just it's such a, there's so much to it, right. And I feel like that material or any material, when you just get a chance to play an experiment and do that with other adults as well to new. Yeah, just bring a different sensibility, maybe you can call it to your work with children and a different understanding of how maybe they're working through ideas, or even just this notion of time, right? Like, I feel like when you're given a either or if you're given an expansive amount of time to work with the material, you know, the benefit of that, right. And then you're more likely to say, you know, what, I really needed an hour to work with this material, I see that I can't move the children on from this material yet, because they're not finished. And I was in that space before. And I know what that's like. And then subsequently, if you you know, say you were in a session and you had a facilitator, say, Okay, we're done with this guy, we're going to move on to this

Kim Barton  7:56  
oh, okay, let's go,

Victoria Armstrong  8:00  
put it away, right? Like, no, you can work that later, whatever. If you've been in that moment that it gives you such a different appreciation for, you know, what, like, I can't just can't just give them 15 or 20 minutes to play with this, and then just ask them to move on. And there's actually, essentially research behind that, too. I think it's, I think it's the book children meaning making in the arts, I think it's that book by Susan Wright. Hopefully, I'm pulling this this idea from the right book, but I'm pretty sure it was that book where they talked about this idea of children have a sense of how much time, they have to work with something to work with the material or an idea. And based on what they based on how much time they think they have, they'll either work with something kind of like a surface level, or they'll dig into their idea more. So children have this sense that, okay, I know, I'm going to be hurried along to do something else, then they're going to kind of be at a really surface level with their idea and with their material. Whereas if children know, okay, I know that I'd have like an hour to work at this, they're going to kind of really sink into what it is that they're doing and get into their ideas. And rightly so because they know that they're not going to have that frustration of being pulled away from their idea, right? I mean, I think as adults, we all know what that's like to really be engaged in something and then be pulled away from that be like, but it wasn't, I'm not done thinking about that yet. Or I'm not done playing with that. Right. And it's not just children, misbehaving. It's children being in a space where they're trying to figure something out and when you recognize that as an adult know what that's like then I just think that changes how you work with children. I know it has for me.

Kim Barton  9:44  
Totally. Yeah. Okay, so I've been thinking a lot about this idea of time with materials with regards to music in particular and not just not songs per se. When I say music I mean like, just sounds And they suspect that those of us who are a little bit apprehensive about really exploring sound, haven't had enough time to just tinker with a ukulele and figure out what is the knob do when I do it this way? What about the other way? What if I restring it? What if I put the strings on upside down? What if I like play it the other like, you know, there's so I feel like music isn't used as liberally as it could be because it's almost been to, like, rigid, right? It's like you play this way. You've read music this way. And it's like, but it could be so much more than that. Right? Like, and what about putting like, if if it's ukuleles? We're exploring what about like turning a piano upside down looking at the strings of that, or you're putting strings up in the classroom, and tightening them at different tensions. And like listening, and someone had showed me this documentation of spoons dropping, I think it was a before and after school program, like a spoon had slid off a table or something. And people like notice the sound. And then they kept doing it. And then they started to draw the sound as best they could when it like, you know when it's like dangling dangling link and it's like, oh, it's like, yeah, it's like, it bounces a couple times. Okay, maybe that represents like, is represented in some dots. But I think the only way that we would ever really get there is that is through time. I don't and space and no pressure. And the same way that you would explore clay open ended Lee, you wouldn't have someone hovering over you say like, oh, this is how you This is how you make a ball, you have to make it by rolling with your index finger and your thumb or you have to add this amount of water. Like, if if we don't do that with clay, then we shouldn't do it with music. And I don't think we do in early learning. But I wonder about that creativity has been lost a little bit because we think that songs are the only way that music happens. And we lose the potential to understand and to notice children's musical dispositions, their musicality. Once I read Susan young music with under fours, I started to notice sound exploration in a completely different way. And I think that that's why I get riled up about music. I'm like, I wish everybody could read the book and start to think about it a little bit differently and have time to work through this idea. Those who are interested, I'm not saying everybody has to, but it makes me want to like shut off rooftops sometimes and be like, we're missing so much of children's experiences in the curriculum, if we don't know, to notice it, I guess.

Victoria Armstrong  12:46  
Absolutely. Well, yeah. And I was thinking of multiple intelligences and the musical intelligence, right. So yeah, I mean, like, if we kind of confine ourselves to music, like a music activity, right? I'm gonna play this instrument or, or then you if you don't play an instrument, you're like, Well, I don't play an instrument. So I'm just gonna put on some music or Yeah, you know, and like, to your point, I mean, if you have a musical and intelligence, for example, you see the world like differently, you see rhythm, you see pitch, you see tone, you see, like, so many different things that is so beyond just can you play an instrument? Or can you make a song or whatever, like, there's so much more to it, right. And I feel like, that's kind of the same with any arts, like, whether that's dance or photography, or visual art, like there's just, there's so much to materials. And I also think that's why it's so important to have really good quality materials, like art materials for children, right? And I mean, that can be simple, loose parts, right? If you're like when you mentioned about, you know, strings hanging across the classroom to you know, play with sound or spoons or things like that. But even when I'm thinking about, you know, when it comes to visual arts, you know, really good quality art material, quality paint oil pastels, like Yeah, crayons that actually make like a nice mark on the paper versus waxy crayons that you can't really do much with right and thanks

Kim Barton  14:23  
paper to like, like, you can see the chunks of color in a new way. You know, like,

Victoria Armstrong  14:28  
yeah, it actually like it holds the water in the media, right? Yeah. I actually had an experience in my studio with my little guy and number of months ago, he wanted to put up mural paper on the floor. So you put on your old paper and he took he brought over the bleeding tissue paper which when you add water to it, the color comes out of the paper and you wanted to use it on the mural paper and in my head, I'm like, it's the paper is going to read it's going to be really unsatisfying. I would rather him to use watercolor paper because it's going to absorb it and he's that's kind of how he's connected. He's always used it with the watercolor paper before so I think that's What has drawn him to it? But I thought, You know what, I'm gonna see what happens because I want to see if he notices the difference and whether it's, you know, just how he responds to it. And he was he was, like frustrated with it. He was like, Oh, Mom, why can't you see the color? Very much. And he would try a little bit more water. And then he would drag it across. And the color really didn't come out very well, because the paper was just absorbing the water. Right. So and then I said, Okay, well, do you want to try a piece of watercolor paper? And so we put it kind of side by side? And then he did? He's like, Oh, this one? This is so much nicer, right? And then he was so much more engaged. And so sometimes I even wonder if you know, how children's level of engagement is tied to the types of materials we have. Because if something isn't satisfying to us, then they're going to move on to something else. So does that mean that they're not interested in it? Or is it just because the materials aren't really supporting whatever their ideas that they have? So I think, yeah, just good quality materials, like, you know, even with instruments like real, as much as you can write like real instruments or real things to play with and explore or like you said, just noticing when children are playing with, with sound and with rhythm, and yeah, just being more conscious of it. But again, I think that goes back to what you said about educators having time to play with materials and play together and explore. Explore different concepts and arts. And, you know, remember, I'm actually people that know me know that I have a thing for googly eyes. I hate googly eyes. Cuz they don't look like real eyes. Right? But they're all soon as he said it. Yeah, I was like these used in classrooms. And I'm like, but they don't look like eyes and like, what kind of messages are communicating to children about, like, our kind of like our view of children? Like, do we not know that like children can notice other people's eyes and the color in them and the shape and all of that. And so I don't know, I'm kind of a stickler for what is maybe seen as like traditional art materials and classrooms like pom poms and sequins and googly eyes and feathers and stuff like that. White glue all of that. I guess it can maybe have a place sometimes. But I think like if you've ever worked with some of those materials as an adult, and you've tried to glue a pom pom onto a piece of paper, it doesn't stick. I do know. It's frustrating, right? And yet, why do we sometimes put those materials out on shelves? Like what can you actually do with them? If you spend time like trying to play with them, you'll realize you can't really do much with them? Could you use them in maybe the building area like you know, putting pom poms down tubes and stuff like that and compare them with how fast rocks go down? Yeah. But when you think about them in an art space, and you actually like spend time like playing with the materials that are there, I think you've come to realize, wow, these are really intelligent materials. Like you can't do a whole lot with them. But then we get stuck up in, I don't know whether it's the mall, it's about the process versus the product. And it's like, I feel like it's both right, like the process is important. But then also, if a child is really trying to communicate an idea, and the material doesn't serve them to be able to communicate that idea, then the product for them is important, right? Like they're really trying to, I don't know, draw a squirrel that they saw outside that they were fascinated with. And the paper isn't serving them or the drawing and implement isn't serving them then it is really frustrating to them. So it's not just about the process. And all they tried Well, no, they were actually trying to get somewhere and trying to really communicate something. So it is important that those materials kind of served them well.

Kim Barton  18:59  
Yeah, I so agree. I don't even have much to add, because I like yeah, this summer I spent some time visiting some summer camps and introducing charcoal, watercolor paints, some pastels. And I was so I wish I could have had longer to really explore that because I kind of hopped around. It's not like I got to stay in one place for a long time. So it just piqued this curiosity in me because the children who were of all ages were so competent with using these materials to express their ideas. And once everybody was kind of engaged, they became curious about the materials. They were asking why why do pastels smudge together like how come I can do this but I can't do it with like crayons or I remember they had come up with all kinds of ways to describe the way the watercolors were mixing together. And children were using terminology like hue, and oh, and shadows. Oh, I remember now, okay, there was a moment where I had visited one place. And there was kind of a culture there of really being into sports and basketball, I think, in particular, and I remember that the staff there were trying to figure out how to get the children interested in art, because they were like, they just want to play basketball, how are they, they're not going to sit here. And you know, draw. So then I got everyone to look at the basketball with the light shining on it and the shadow. And I was like, how do we draw that? And everybody tried and like, we just we used it as an opportunity to start looking at things a little bit differently. Look at look at the the shiny spot on the basketball and the way the lights reflecting. How do you how do we draw the shadow? What angle should we draw it on? So that it looks real? And for me, like that was learning for me, because I was like, in the moment, like, observing things with children and being like, we were lucky to have real authentic materials to do this with that made it so like, it just really respected these, like ideas that they were, like, interested in, or, you know, it wasn't this, the Fisher Price version of art, right? Like it was just art everybody can do.

Victoria Armstrong  21:30  
So yeah, yeah, I've always had an interest in the arts like growing up, I, I danced and such like that. So my background is more in dance. I've trained in ballroom and such like that. So that's kind of always been my passion is the arts in some form. I had the most phenomenal dance teacher when I was in high school. And I actually connected with her when I was to ask her if she knows anybody who is a dance educator that can kind of see dance from a different perspective of not just coming in to do a dance class with children, like I was interested in. How can similar to kind of when you were saying about sound, and you know, How do children play with sound all the time? In their days? Right? How do they notice rhythm and all of those kinds of things? I was curious about that from kind of like a movement perspective, like How do children engage with movement and space and all of that kind of just naturally in their play? And I never found an educator, a dance educator. And I remember my teacher saying, Yeah, you would really need someone who could really engage with children in their play and kind of pull from it and have it be as emergent as possible. So I'm still curious about that, how you can kind of engage children in, in dance and movement without it being more of like an activity or a class, but how do you? Yeah, just notice when they kind of play with those ideas already naturally, in their, in their play or outside? But yeah, I guess the biggest thing for me it kind of like we talked about was the importance of quality materials, and how much that makes a difference for children being able to communicate their ideas, and kind of like you said, like, how it respects their ideas, right? It gives them an opportunity to really communicate what they're thinking and wondering about versus just giving up because they're frustrated that the medium is not working, how they want it to work, right. And then I was also I remember studying a book called, in the spirit of the studio learning from the Atelier of Reggio Emilia, I think is what it's called. And

Kim Barton  23:48  
is this what it is? Yeah. I haven't looked at it yet. I just said it. I was like, Wait, this sounds familiar.

Victoria Armstrong  23:56  
Yeah, there's a part I'm pretty sure it's in that book where they talk about children in the infant toddler centers in Reggio Emilia, have it like that's where their relationship with materials begins, right? Like where they get to know, paint, for example, like, what is paint? How does it move? How does it work? What can I do with it? Just building a relationship with it, right? And if they don't ever have a chance to build a relationship with that material, then when they turn three, or four or five, and you offer them paint and say, you know, I wonder if we can paint our ideas about our walk today outside, they're still in that space of exploration, because they haven't really moved on from that exploration stage. Right. And so I think that sometimes there's some materials that are seen as well once children get to a certain age then we can introduce the materials to them. I'm of the belief that most materials we can introduce to children at a really young age some will need more guidance or more. You know, being close by the child to kind of support their investigations as they as they work through it. But that whole idea of just Yeah, children really developing their relationships with materials very, very, very early. And I think that's why I remember when the wonder of learning exhibit came to Toronto. And I went to see it. And it was, I mean, there's just so much that you could take in here and questions that you come away with. And I remember talking to an educator who said, I don't think my kids could do that. Right. And I'm like, Whoa, right. Like, they were just they were so taken back by the, the intricacies in the children's drawings that were like three years old, right? They're like, I don't know how they do that. And I think my theory is that it's because they're in this culture in their classrooms, where, from a very young age, they're introduced to really intelligent materials and really high quality materials. And they come to know those materials and and how they work from a really young age. So that when they are, say, three years old, they're not in this, they've kind of moved past the exploration stage of how does material work to the point where they can say, okay, how can I use this material to communicate what it is? And I'm actually thinking, right, I think sometimes in our best intentions, sometimes if if we don't recognize that process, we can kind of invite children to communicate something with the material, when they haven't worked with that material, and expect something that they just can't do yet, because they haven't gotten to know that material yet. Right. And we have to give them time and honor credit that space for them to build a relationship with it. Just like you know, we wouldn't expect an adult to okay here, you just met this person now. Come up with this big idea together or Yeah, tell her this. It's like, well, I just met this person. Like, I don't know anything about them. Yeah. And he talked to them first, right? I think the same is with materials and

Kim Barton  27:02  
chips with them. You're making me think too that like with musical instruments, it's the same thing. Like, I wouldn't hand you a guitar for the first time and be like, make a song, right? Oh, are you kidding? Like, the song comes? Yeah, I don't know how to play. What sound does it make? What does it feel like? It's vibrating against my chest? What does that feel like? That's new. Like, wait, if I stop, or if I bang on it, it makes a different sound. Like there's all that to get through before I actually use it to convey if I want to use it to convey a particular idea. Like that takes time. So that I, I have a relationship with a guitar or whatever it is.

Victoria Armstrong  27:40  
Totally, totally. Yeah. And I feel like that's, that's a great example of a material that I think we kind of take for granted that it's either like, either it's either you know how to use something, or you don't know how to do something. And there's this other book that I love, and I lived with the language of art by pelo.

Kim Barton  27:59  
Okay, that one I brought out, I was just so that you had told me about this one. So I bought it? Or maybe it was the other one. I don't know. I got it. I haven't read through it. But I was looking through it right before our call.

Victoria Armstrong  28:12  
And that's the first addition to there's another there's a always there to that one. Yeah.

Kim Barton  28:16  
Okay. It remember what you were saying to I was gonna I could talk about this for forever. But in from teaching to thinking, and payload, Margie Carter also have some snippets of children's drawings. I talk about this all the time, I'm not going to explain but chapter one where they talk about the skunk. I have worked through that idea over and over and over again. Have you read it? Oh, my gosh, okay. The drawings just conveyed children's, like different ideas. And then I think it's in the same chapter. There's drawings of trees. And I think the question was something like, Why do leaves change color? And so instead of answering the question, yeah, it was just this ongoing exploration. Well, why do Why do you think leaves change color? And there's all these, like, Okay, that one,

Victoria Armstrong  29:06  
that one is really good. Yeah. Anyway, I'm

Kim Barton  29:07  
not doing it any justice. But if folks haven't read it, they should read it. It integrates, I think this like arts and drawing to express ideas with this idea of not having an answer, or, I mean, it is about why leaves change color, but it's not about the right answer. It's not about googling why leaves change color. It's like, Well, let's think this through why possibly could leads change color,

Victoria Armstrong  29:32  
and all the theories and the drawings that came out from that? As a result, yeah, yeah. And one of the reasons why I love her book so much as she talks about how or I don't even know if she talks about it in that book, or maybe it's another, another avenue. I've heard her talk about it, where she talks about how in her in her early days in her career, she used to be very hands off with children. Like she would kind of just sit back and watch and let children kind of use materials however, they wanted to. And then over time, she kind of came to see that as doing a disservice to children in the sense that to a certain degree, you're not going to naturally discover how to say use watercolors, for example, right, like a child isn't necessarily going to know, these particular kinds of paints work with water, right. So if you don't necessarily show them to a certain degree, you know, use a paint brush, you dip it in a little bit of water, you put it in the paint, you swirl it in the paint, and then you put it on your paper, and it makes a color, right? And they're not necessarily going to think, Okay, I need to put water with this material if they don't know what it is, right. And so what I appreciate in this book is the balance between it's a very practical book in the sense that she's she gives you ideas for how you can introduce children to materials, so that they can build relationships with with those materials so that when the question comes from a child with how do leaves change color, they're familiar with how watercolor works, or how wire works, or how black fineliners work, like they've been able to work with those materials to the point where they're like, Okay, you know what, I think my idea would best be expressed through wire or through a black fineliner through something like that, right? Because they've been introduced to those materials. So that was also another learning for me in the sense that I don't think it's teacher directed for an educator to give children some idea of how a particular material works. I think that's very different from telling a child what they need to draw, or what they need to paint. But I think there's a place for saying here, let me show you how, how this watercolor palette works, how you connect it with water, and then explore it, see what see what you can figure out about how this material works together, right? Yep. Same thing with clay, like, I love the hurt. She has two chapters on clay in that book. And she she, you know, invites you to invite children to get to know like a big hunk of clay, just in and of itself, right. Like don't give them any tools, nothing like that, like let them stand on it. Let them Yeah, put it on the table, let them get their feet in it, like really get to know this is very Oh, yeah, I love I love it. And I was just looking at the

Kim Barton  32:25  
photo with the, with all the footprints like they were, like stomping on it or something. Yeah, just getting to know it.

Victoria Armstrong  32:33  
To hide, and so I feel like the earlier that we invite children into those relationships with materials, the, the better we serve them, I feel like because then they're going to have these tools to communicate their ideas as they grow up. Whereas you know, if they're four or five, six years old, and they've never been introduced to clay or wire or a fine liner or these materials, then of course, they're going to linger and exploration because they haven't had a chance to figure out how these materials work together. Like what's the difference between tempera paint and acrylic paint? How they work very differently. They feel very different on paper, they can communicate very different ideas than watercolor. watercolors can write so. Yeah. And now you're getting me to think about like sound and music and how how does all that? How, like, how do we introduce children authentically to those types of materials? And give them time to play and experiment and give them information that is going to serve them right not just say this is how you have to do it. But have you noticed this? Or what happens if you do this to kind of draw their attention to maybe something that they hadn't noticed? So I really liked just her talk about yeah, there's a difference with being a very hands off, like I just let them do whatever they want kind of thing with the material to being really mindful about, okay, what's gonna really help them build a relationship with this material? And is there something that I can do in terms of like in the book she talks about, you know, setting aside studio time for small groups of children so that children can really not only build relationships with the materials but with other children and think together and

Kim Barton  34:30  
yeah, okay, real quick.

Victoria Armstrong  34:32  
Okay. Like really through really rapid fire? Yeah,

Kim Barton  34:35  
like top of like the first thing that comes to mind without like overthinking it.

Unknown Speaker  34:40  
Okay, have a cheat sheet. Yeah, just like off the cuff thinking and your questions are

Victoria Armstrong  34:45  
really deep so.

Kim Barton  34:49  
Okay, so with that, what would you say is your favorite way to play

Victoria Armstrong  34:55  
kind of two things dancing and choreographing. I do kind of like dance fitness class. And I have a background in ballroom so I love music and dance. That's kind of how I play and that's my happy space. But then also just kind of experimenting with different materials with my three year old I, I love playing like

Kim Barton  35:11  
I love it, it's so obvious to on your Instagram holy smokes like, Um, okay, so how would you say learning happens for humans?

Victoria Armstrong  35:23  
Right like that? How is that a rapid fire?

Kim Barton  35:28  
Okay, okay,

Victoria Armstrong  35:29  
so it is nutshell, my thinking is in collaboration with others and with materials, and kind of just like we've been talking about when everyone gets a chance to play with materials, when when each person feels listened to and heard and valued. I think that's where learning happens. You have to play together, you have to be together, you have to listen to each other, value each other, be authentic with each other. And I think that's where magic happens.

Kim Barton  35:56  
See, we can we can do it right there. I mean, we could write a book on it too. Or we could just answer it in 10 seconds. Okay, I feel like this question is similar. What does this mean for your view on pedagogy? And how would you say, like, what does good pedagogy kind of how does it show up for you? What does it look like or sound like or feel like?

Victoria Armstrong  36:17  
Yeah, I think it's joyful. I think it's something that is, you know, very expressive. I kind of thought of this word raw, in a sense that like, you know, feelings and things can be challenging, like, how do you? How do you work through those feelings yourself as an educator, when you feel uncomfortable in a situation? How do you work through that with children? So I just feel like it's very, maybe it's authentic, raw, really open ended, like materials can be used in lots of different ways. And those materials spark curiosity and wonder, I think that you hear, you know, lots of questions happening. And people wondering together people being inquisitive. Maybe some answers, maybe not some answers, maybe just lingering with ideas, wondering together. I think when you kind of have all those things happening, that's just that's good pedagogy. Pedagogy, right?

Kim Barton  37:09  
Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Um, okay. And the last one is, okay, this Admittedly, this can't be a rapid fire questions, but like, what are some things that you think, are required for learning or transformation or change to really happen for people?

Victoria Armstrong  37:31  
Definitely curiosity. I think that's the number one, if you're not curious, as an educator, I think you're going to be stuck. You have to be like, curious about the children curious about your practice curious about anything. I think humility is really important, like this sense of, we kind of talked about this before we started recording, like just the sense of, I don't know everything, right. And I want to know more, and I want to learn more, I want to hear other people's perspectives. I think if you go into education, feeling like you know everything, I think it does a disservice to yourself, your colleagues, your children, because it kind of stops learning. So I think the sense of humility, and then listening, like, I think we need to be in spaces where we listen to each other, like really listen to each other, like, not just hear if there's a quote, right, you know, you don't do you hear to listen or to hear to respond. Right, like at all? Where do we when do we really authentically listen to each other to really just hear, you know, understand what they're saying? And not just because I want to respond quickly to what they're, they're saying, because I have an idea, but how am I really trying to understand what this means for them and what they're thinking about? And reflection, I think if there's no reflection, I don't really know how transformation can happen. If you're not thinking critically about what you do and why you do it, and how you can do it differently or better. Whatever better is. Well, so there's your simple Rapid Fire question.

Kim Barton  39:11  
Incredible, those are incredible answers. Holy smokes.

Victoria Armstrong  39:14  
Thanks for asking them, they're good. They're good questions to think about.

Kim Barton  39:17  
Anytime I'm gonna I'm still unpacking them myself, like I was saying earlier. So well, you have given me so much to think about as per usual, our work was. And for me art to like, and the combination like the spoon example, well, how do you represent sound with visual art? And like painting, like the rhythm, like what rhythms are happening when a child is just for example, like painting and sort of spotting on the paper or something? Yeah, well, before we go, um, do you want to just let people know where they can find you? Sure.

Victoria Armstrong  39:55  
So you can find me at SBSconsulting.ca is my website and then from my website, I can find me on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. I just started a YouTube channel. Yeah,

Kim Barton  40:08  
oh my gosh,

Victoria Armstrong  40:09  
I've been a little busy with other things. So I haven't got to video, but I've been I'm trying to get that going a little bit more. So

Kim Barton  40:16  
that's where you can find amazing.

Victoria Armstrong  40:19  
So I use my Instagram to share my thinking share what I'm kind of mulling over with my three year old as well too. And, and

Kim Barton  40:31  
you also run professional learning opportunities. So I will vouch that they are incredible I have gone. And if you want to learn more with Victoria

Victoria Armstrong  40:43  
themes, so Yeah, speaking of professional learning opportunities, actually and our conversation about art that we've just had, I actually have a three parts of art series coming up this spring. Part one is on Wednesday, April 13, from six to 7:30pm. And that session is going to explore what current literature has to say about the importance of the natural world and art in children's lives. And that is going to look a little bit at what our role is in facilitating these relationships. Part two is going to be on Saturday, May 14, from 930 to 11am. And that's going to explore examples from an actual visual artist who uses the natural world in her work, as well as engaging in outdoor drawing exercise, and then we're going to have some time to reflect on its significance. And then part three is going to be on Tuesday, June 7 from six to 7:30pm. And that one will invite participants to consider the value of creating an outdoor studio and discover ideas for creating either a permanent or a transient space. So all the info and the link to register is on my website, again, www dot SBS consulting.ca. And you can either register for a single session or all three, whatever works best with your schedule. All three sessions are going to be virtual using the zoom platform. So no matter where you are in the world, wherever you're listening to this, if you're interested in joining, I would love to have you

Kim Barton  42:05  
perfect. I hope that you're just as invigorated and inspired as I am to try new things with children and to think differently about art and perhaps to ditch the googly eyes and pom poms. And I would actually add now that I've heard this episode again, potentially ditching the Boomwhackers to and the CD players maybe not ditching them but rethinking them. Anyways, thanks so much for listening. If you have any questions or comments about this episode Victorian I would love to hear them feel free to reach out to either Victoria or myself. My Instagram for this podcast is at playful pedagogies I think on Twitter, it's at playful pod. You can also find me at playful pedagogies.ca Or you can send me an email at KEM@playful pedagogies.ca. And of course if you liked this episode, stay tuned because we will have part two out shortly. Thanks so much everyone. Stay playful