Play! (pt 1)

In this solo episode, I (finally!) discuss  what play is! I challenge my own vision of play, getting along, and sharing. I also highlight other folks' knowledge, such as definitions of play, types of play, schemas of play, and rhetorics of play. This episode is rooted in early childhood education and care perspectives on play, but I make links to how this understanding can be extended lifelong.

Transcript

  Welcome to the playful podcast, where we discuss lifelong learning and leisure by lingering at the intersection of recreation, education and occupation. I'm your host, Kim Barton. Welcome to the journey. I'm excited to play and learn along with you. 

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode three of the playful podcast. quick shout out to all my friends and family who have been listening to this podcast and so enthusiastic about my journey in starting a podcast. I appreciate you so much. Thank you, thank you.

So my name is Kim, my pronouns are she her hers. And at this time this podcast is not affiliated or associated with or authorized or endorsed by any organization or individual other than myself and my future guests. We slash me are going to be talking all things play. Finally, in this episode, I'll be pondering what play is, what play isn't types of play, characteristics of play. And I'll include some wonderings about the role of sharing. So why don't we start with that.

When I think of play, my like, default image that comes to my mind is children, like prancing around in a field with like, smiles on their faces, and like, kind of this like, airy fairy like whimsical experience, and they're like, always getting along. And my kind of, like, follow up to this image is often like, Hey, wait a second, like, how do I experience play as an adult, as somebody of privilege, as a cisgendered woman, like, I experienced play as something that  definitely can be like airy fairy whimsical, and like, with a smile on my face, but it can also at times be like frustrating, and like, I can go to some like, deep dark places sometimes. And it depends on what type of adult play we're talking about. So um, you know, I just anyway, I thought it might fit nicely to kind of just like, start bringing up this idea of getting along in play. And whether it's actually true that play is sort of synonymous with these sort of very positive emotional experiences, and some other like misconceptions that come with what we think about when we think of play. So the first thing that I wanted to just like bring raise into our awareness, if you're not already familiar, is that when we think of children getting along, and specifically when we think of them, like sharing materials and engaging in play together, whether that's what we'll get into some of you know, like, how actually, like people play together or not. But the first question that was raised to me during my undergraduate programme, shout out University of Guelph, Child, Youth and Family programme, I'm in my practicum course with this amazing instructor, Kim Squires. She raised this point that was like, when is it developmentally appropriate to expect children to be able to share? And I have thought about that non stop ever since? If you're in Ontario, something that might support you in answering this question is looking at a document ELECT and identifying not so much the age, but what sort of skills are are involved with sharing materials, and when might you able to be to determine when a child or any individual is sort of like ready to share developmentally, but also not just developmentally, but like, sort of like disposition wise and like moment to moment wise, like, you know, in general developmentally, sure, I can conceptualize what sharing means and I can usually even negotiate about sharing something but at certain times, or in certain spaces, like I don't want to share, like, if someone sits down next to me and is like, Oh, nice phone, like, Can I have a turn? Like, probably not. So, you know, that's just like one small example that that brings this idea of sharing beyond development. And so this is so serendipitous, because I had already been wanting to chat about this on my podcast when Kristin Peterson from learning dot wild maybe it's called play based learning on Instagram. She also has a podcast that I'm going to shout out like a million times in this episode, because we have like very similar sort of approaches to discussing play. So she had this post this week that talked about why we shouldn't force children to share. And it was it just kind of like, honestly, my first response, which is actually a really good teaching moment for me, and my podcasting journey, I was like, oh, like, she beat me to it. Like she, she provided the posts that really like, you know, shook up some of the online community and got people got people talking about about it. And then I was like, hang on a second, my vision for this podcast is bringing educators together across disciplines. And when I think of the podcasters, that I really respect, like, those from Call Your Girlfriend, and I think of Shine Theory, in particular, I think of how my role in this is to challenge the idea that we are somehow in competition, and form alliances with each other. So this is like not at all meant to be like a sides. I don't know, a side comment to Kristen, I absolutely love her work. Anyway, that was a total tangent, back to sharing. 

So that post on sharing really got me thinking. And I've been discussing this to at my place of employment, we've been exploring how sharing is not caring. That's what we've been saying. And we've been just sort of like talking about how, you know, if I like walked up to you, whoever you might be sat down next to you and like rummage through your purse was like, oh, I'm, I want to use your lipstick. It's like my turn to use your lipstick. And sharing is caring. So yep, that's what I'm gonna do. And I'll, you know, I guess I'll give it back when I'm done kind of thing. Like, that's actually not how adults interact. We don't just demand to use each other's possessions. We don't expect each other to share materials we have like, for those products and services that we do share. Oftentimes, there's a system in place like a library, where we like formally, do take turns. And there are sort of some limitations and perimeters around using it, or are we like, are in verbal agreement with each other, like, Hey, you can borrow my book, but like, you know, I want it back in October because I'm doing a book club on it or whatever. Anyway, that was a really long way of saying that critiquing and really thinking deeply about whether Sharing is caring is, is I think, a growing conversation and early childhood education and care, and one that we can be really thinking about in other avenues of education and care as well. And this is also my long way of getting into a land acknowledgement that I wanted to discuss. 

So it's not just this idea of sharing in general, that matters, but also how, when and why we go about sharing. And one way that I've sort of slowly been learning about and thinking about sharing is through the Dish with One Spoon Treaty, which which oversees the land that I doing this podcast from. And it was essentially an agreement between the Anishinaabe and the hood in a show name. So from my understanding, the treaty was kind of about sharing, but that's probably an oversimplification of it. Because it was also meant to create peace between the Anishinaabe and the Haudenosaunee living on the same lands. And it's been around for a really long time. As far as I've been reading, I only like briefly read into it to share this. So I'm going to keep learning about it and keep sharing as I do the podcast more. But what I was reading was that in 1701, actually, there's a good article called a dish with one spoon reconsidered by Dean Jacobs and Victor Litwyn, I think is how I pronounce that last name. And they talked about how the treaty was sort of, I guess, established with a wampum belt that kind of showed the single dish so a dish with one spoon single dish.

And this happened in 1701, during the Great Peace treaty Council in Montreal, which was, I guess, kind of like signified that ending of conflict conflict between the two groups. And I'm probably not going to do this tree justice. But how I hear it often referred to is as a kind of analogy, I guess, for us all sharing land. And and I think that the quote that often comes with it is something like take only what you need, leave some for others and always keep it clean. And so part of the symbolization was that there's a spoon, which was a non sharp utensil meant to, essentially, again, keep that peace between the two between the two groups. And then the one dish, which often I think was sometimes a bowl, but also sometimes a kettle was, I guess, meant to perhaps maybe signify the land and but what I was reading in this article is that sometimes it gets kind of misrepresented just to be about kind of environmentalism. And sometimes it might not include both perspectives. I'll link a few other articles in my show notes that I've started to read. But I really wanted to take some more time to unpack it, before I tried to speak to it. Because I didn't want to be saying things that aren't true, even though I might have already. I was really kind of thinking about, like, you know, who gets to play, what does play look like. And then it was kind of like, Oh, you know, this idea of getting along, and then sharing and deconstructing, sharing. Anyway, that was a long way of introducing the topic. But there's one other thing I wanted to say, as an action item from my sort of semi territorial acknowledgement, which is that I'm hoping to do some more research about how space and time has influenced play. So like how, what play has looked like in historically and also cross culturally, to really try to understand just, you know, when I think of, you know, back to my image of children, like running around in a meadow, often in my mind, like those children are white, which is like, pretty problematic for somebody who is a registered early childhood educator and who, you know, I'm like, on a journey to, to dismantle the way that whiteness is centred in my own mind. However, I think that's, you know, a larger sort of conversation for not just like early learning, but education in general, like Who is it? What who, our students when we think of students, and who are we planning playspaces for, which I think I have many more thoughts on this. So hopefully, I have time, hopefully Remember to unpack that later on in my episode. 

Okay, so the next thing I kind of wanted to touch on, is getting back to this idea of prerequisites to play. And I did a whole episode on this. That was my last step of show. So thank you, for everybody who bared with me and listened to that, despite it being hard to listen to, and me being like, mostly out of breath for a lot of it. But I had some additional thoughts then since then. So I just wanted to like, bring it back to Firstly, my vision of the podcast. So I say in my tagline something about thinking about lifelong learning and leisure, which I totally didn't include in the first two episodes. Not sure if you noticed, but now I've included it. Because to me, leisure is a really important piece here. Because in my training, it's focused on learning and play, and how to support those two things. And I think, I think that we just have a lot of work to do in terms of understanding the role of leisure, who gets to enjoy and engage in leisurely activities. And what folks in rock and leisure can teach educators of other kinds. So yeah, I'm just trying to bring out the role of leisure when I think about play. I also saw this incredible Instagram post, I think the account is called indigenous motherhood. I'll link it in my show notes. And she sorry, they talked about why some indigenous parents might have difficulty engaging in play with their children. And this was like, really, I think it's a really important message and it's something that I think educators who are promoting play might really miss out on and it kind of ties back to this role of like, who, you know, who is prioritizing leisure who gets to have leisurely time, but also, it speaks to the ways in which generational trauma has impacted parenting practices across different groups of people. And, of course, there is I'm thinking, I'm thinking of definitely of Indigenous cultures across Canada, who essentially survived genocide. And unfortunately, many Indigenous children weren't able to have to be raised by their parents in the ways that they might have due to the generational effects of the residential school system. The ongoing the ongoing, oh, I'm blanking on the word, the child welfare system. And, but also, like the many, many systemic factors that continue to oppress and limit Indigenous folks access to their culture and language. So I'm thinking about that, but I'm also thinking about like, other marginalised groups who may be impacted by things like parents being incarcerated. I'm thinking about, you know, the kind of environmental racism that happens. So like, the kind of places in cities that tend to have parks available, or that tend to have like green spaces, or trees, like forests, really intricate, wild spaces. So those are just some thoughts about sort of, like, barriers to play, and you should check out the Instagram post I mentioned, because I'm not going to be able to do it justice as the Yeah, really just go check it out. 

Okay, I also created my own Instagram post, maybe like a week ago, and I just asked some questions like, who gets to play? Where do we get to play? When do we get to play? when, where and why is play confined to certain behaviours, certain spaces, certain times? Are all types of play experienced and supported throughout our lives, even like after childhood? Wow, my voice is going like really high. What are our play values? So like, when or why why might we miss recognizing a behaviour as play? And finally, how do we cultivate play not just as an activity, but also as a disposition. And I think that this is something that speaks to the title of my podcast, being titled playful, which is different than play. And that is something I'm hoping to unpack in a future episode. So these are some questions to reflect on, I'll link the Instagram post in my show notes. And now, I'm ready to finally get into what play is. 

So the funny thing about play is that we all think we kind of know what it is. It's one of those things that's been defined slightly differently over time. And it's kind of ambiguous, like, we're not actually all in agreement about what play is. For example, when I googled the definition of play, it said something like to engage in an activity for enjoyment and recreation, rather than a serious and practical purpose. But then, you know, if I contrast that with the way that some early learning philosophy position play to be the children's work, and it is something that is serious. And it does have a purpose. So there's a quote by Fred Rogers that I wanted to highlight too, and it just says play is often talked about, as if it were relief from serious learning. But for children play is serious learning. Play is really the work of childhood. I think it's Steiner, who said something really similar to who kind of was one of the who's one of the kind of philosophers that established the Waldorf schooling approach. So he said something like play as the work of childhood, when children play, they are experiencing the world with their entire being. And Froebel said something similar. I think he said the play of children is not recreation. It means earnest work. So it's sounding a lot like play is like kind of work sometimes or like it's to be taken seriously. I feel like there's a fine line here between something being play and something being work and like I talked about, in my experience with like songwriting, I can often feel pretty serious, like I can get pretty into it sometimes. And I may be doing it for multiple reasons. Like, I may be doing it as a break from other things I have to do. But I also may be doing it because I just really enjoy it. So it's a bit confusing to me about how serious is play supposed to be and how synonymous is work with play. And I think the thing I just really want to highlight is that when we say play is the work of children, then like, what does that mean for adults, and like, our, our play? Can play could also be my work? That would be fantastic. But I'm just, I'm bringing this up, because I actually don't think that we need to constantly be dividing away how children play versus how adults work. And I think the whole the whole purpose, I think comes from legitimizing play was because it was this path forward to make sure that children were having free play experiences, and not constantly being over structured with pre determined activities or prescribed materials with only certain uses or like games. Yes, I said games if you listen to my first episode, you will know that I already have a thing about like, whether or not games are play. And I'm not going to deconstruct that here. But it's something I keep thinking about. 

I actually just saw a quote the other day from a developmental psychologist, I just happened to be like cruising this website for like her lab. And it said something like, play is not all fun and games. And it just like, you know, really sparked that thought cycle it in me because I was like, Huh, it's not all fun and games. So like, how does this fall into our this conversation of like, whether play is serious, or work or fun? And I agree, it's not all fun and games. But does that mean it's serious, then? You know, like, I'm just asking these questions, because I think we really do have to think a little bit more before we kind of fully agree on what play is. 

So fun fact, the word play in English comes from a Dutch word, which means to dance, or leap for joy, and rejoice. Which I find kind of hilarious because like my vision of plays literally, like children like frolicking in a field. And it's interesting, too, because like it doesn't, my image in my head doesn't involve like a game. And it does involve positive feelings. But like I said, when I contrast that with my experiences of play, you know, I think there's some interesting stuff just to think about anyway. Okay, so when I was trying to figure out how to define play, I was obviously getting a little stuck. So I feel like I've dragged this out enough, I should probably actually define play. 

Also, quick shout out to my cat, who's bell you can kind of hear jingling in the recording, sometimes. His name is Archie. There he goes, again. 

I find it hard to really define play, because I just feel like almost any definition will end up feel feeling too limiting. So I'm going to divert back to Kristin, in her episode on Play, which y'all should go check out and I'll link in the show notes. She talks about Peter Gray's definition of play. So when I did a quick Google, I found a couple things that Peter Gray includes in the definition of play. So the first is that it needs to be a self chosen and self directed activity. So that means that it's not something that an adult or anybody else necessarily like suggests or forces you to do. So that means like when I randomly decide to pick up and play my guitar, it's self chosen and self directed. The next thing, the next thing in the definition is that it needs to be motivated by more than the outcome or the end product. So for me when I'm playing music, that often means like, I'm not just so much focus on like, finishing writing a song or trying to record something perfectly. Also, sometimes I'm doing it because of the feeling that it gives me or because there's a larger like, vision or mission that I have to practice something and sort of refined my skills but not in a not in like a very sort of like rote learning way just like oh, you know, I'm whatever I'm practising like, I'm playing the song over and over because I want to, or I'm choosing to play this song because I'm trying to move my fingers between these two like, chords on the guitar or something like that. The next is that it needs to be guided by mental rules. So this one, I don't know if I love, because my feelings on playing games are that for something to be playful and play based on the rules evolve. So I feel like a soccer game because it's always like soccers, you play soccer the same way all the time. I feel like it, the one of the reasons it's not play is that people can't engage in that activity with their rising and falling levels of interest. So you can only play soccer one way, you can't decide to change the rules. You kind of either like play it or you don't. However, I do think that oftentimes, when we're playing, we are following some kind of rules. Sometimes they're unspoken rules. Sometimes we're just like, repeating behaviours back and forth. Sometimes we're like, mimicking each other, you know, if I think of, like, even something like flirting as like, you know, embodying play. I think about it as like, you know, this kind of, like, there are some kind of rules. They're not like strict rules, but there's kind of like an etiquette to it. And there's kind of like a, there's kind of things that like, there's some kind of like routine or ritual involved, I guess, is what I'm thinking. So anyway, I like the idea of mental rules, because it's not something necessarily, that has to be agreed on by two people. So I might be playing. Like, if I'm thinking of parallel play, which I'll talk about in a minute. If I'm engaging in if I'm like, setting up my fairy house, or fairy circle outside, and I'm due to do like, you know, this fairy's gonna live here, and this one's gonna live here. And someone next to me is making a fox den. And we are speaking to each other, but we're not actually involved in each other's play. I think about how, like, I'm actually probably following some of my own mental rules. I'm probably like, oh, fairy can't live here because that's too close to the water. She's gonna live by like the the fairy ring of mushrooms or whatever. So yeah, I guess like mental rules can be part of play. I just, again feel like I feel like it might be limiting. I don't know. Okay, number four here on this list says includes a strong element of imagination. Hmm, there we go. Soccer can't be play. Because what are we imagining? I mean, I guess we can strategize? Maybe that's where imagination comes in. Maybe it's in the strategy, and thinking like theoretically, but either way, I think that sometimes I hear like, teachers say that they're going to like gamify something and turn it into a game to make something that's more boring, more interesting. And sure, it can be more interesting or entertaining, or even fun or humorous. But whether or not it becomes playful probably relies on the amount of rules and the amount of space for imagination. Plus, also, it's not self chosen, self directed, are motivated by more than the product. So I love the imagination is included. And I think that there are some limits to this though. Like, for example, developmentally, what does it mean? If especially when I think of play schemas, when children are choosing to engage in something out of an urge, and also for folks who so I do like a lot of fidgeting, and oops, there we go.

There's too much crinkly things around me. I had a fidget thing with me that you could probably hear sometimes, anywho. 

Yeah, what does it mean for like, for folks who like move their body intuitively or play in a way that is to kind of self regulate? Why in that case, how does imagination imagination like a prominent part of that I don't actually know I'm just sort of raising it as a point I guess. 

And then the last thing on this list is that play is conducted in an alert active and relatively non stressed frame of mind. Hmm alert active I mean, I don't know I kind of like that alert, active. I don't know I could be like fairly passively be playing with something. I guess maybe I'm not sure what behaviour how it would be described. If I'm more possibly engaging in something than actively engaging it, like what else would you call it other than play? which actually is a really good question, because that's the whole point of this podcast is to sparse out what play is what play isn't? Sorry, this episode. I mean, anyway. 

So those are just some five things to keep in mind when we're thinking about what play is and what play isn't. So if you're an adult trying to engage with children, or if you're an educator who's trying to think more about play in their own practice, or if you're somebody who's just like, I don't know, curious about play, and somehow you wound up on my podcast, welcome, hi. But also like, these are some things you can think about when asking yourself if something is play, or not play, I guess, in my definition of play a kind of ended up talking about what the characteristics of play are. So it kind of hit, I guess, two birds with one stone. I probably shouldn't say that anymore. 

Let's chat about types of play. So for those of us in the ECE world, we probably know that there are social and cognitive types of play. So I think it was Mildred Parton. And again, Kristen goes over this in her own episode, I swear, listen, I'm not trying to take this from you, I have this written out anyway. Great minds, right. So social and cognitive. So Mildred Parton came up with a system, or came up with sort of like a set or a, I don't even know what to call it. I guess different types of social play that children engage in. 

So the first one is solitary, meaning independently alone, then there's onlooker, so kind of, you know, considering, you know, observing somebody or considering maybe joining in their play, then we have parallel play, which I kind of described, which is where two or more people are playing kind of independently, but maybe in conversation with each other, or maybe even using the same materials, but not actually engaged, kind of cognitively in the same play, like dynamic. And then we have associative play. So this is where there's more interaction that comes in and children might be in some sense, collaborating on parts of their play, which is very similar, I guess, to cooperative play when there is some cooperation. So maybe, I'm imagining like, children working together to achieve something like try and solve a problem, try to set up like, like a bridge over like a really muddy puddle on the playground or something like that. And then finally, it's games with rules. So when there are some established rules, and this can look in young children, this can look like you know, kind of imitating each other and like, like maybe, you know, one child runs to the bridge and back, and then the next child runs to the bridge and back, and then the first child runs the tree and back and then the next child to the tree and back like, those are some rules that the children are engaging in in a very involved kind of play in terms of like, including other people. And and other children. This can obviously look like soccer games. And we all know how I feel about that. I also want to note that this isn't a hierarchy. It probably was at some point in time considered a hierarchy and developmentally we might conceptualize This is a hierarchy. However, if I think of adults, like I engage in a lot of solitary play, and I am a 30 year old, human, so developmentally, I think I might like challenge some of this too, because the way that like our dispositions factor into the types of play we choose, suggests to me that this is not a hierarchy and we shouldn't be considering our hierarchy. And that on the replay is just as valuable and inherent, and appropriate and worthy as games with roles. 

So another category of types of play are cognitive types of play, which was developed by Piaget, we probably all know him if you've been in psychology or education. So, Piaget talked about types of plays such as functional types of play that are, I think, again, it was initially created as a hierarchy and I would challenge that. So first, there was functional play, which essentially means play for a purpose, like say like to make a sound so like a child is like tapping a piece of wood on the counter because it makes noise I guess just to kind of perform a simple function maybe. Which can be contrasted with constructive play, which is to construct something. which can also be contrasted with symbolic play, which is much more kind of, sometimes I think it's called symbolic slash dramatic plays. So that's where like, sure, you might have built something, but now, but this play also involves a lot more of pretence, and imagining taking on different roles, for example. And I think the final one, in that category is also games with rules. 

So, in case you didn't know this, there is a matrix of play behaviours that overlaps the social and cognitive play behaviours, so that if you're observing a child play, you can score the play as like solitary functional play, or associative symbolic play. So these categories actually overlap with each other, and can help give you a sense of what types of play the children prefer, for example, but it also could show you where different types of play are happening in a learning environment or a childcare environment. It can show you how different learning materials, slash wild spaces even promote or discourage some types of play. These types of play are just interesting tools for us to have in our toolkits as educators to think about what kind of play is being promoted, but also to keep in mind what kind of play children or students prefer. And I think even the whole idea of I forgot to kind of deconstruct the cognitive play stuff, but like, I often will, like functionally, again, back to my music playing stuff, like I will play chords over and over again, for the purpose of just hearing them. So I think that I would challenge that playing songs by following rules or songs that include like a dramatic or like imaginary piece are above somehow the point of playing music just for its own sake, just to hear it, and to enjoy the sound of it. 

Okay, so the cognitive types of play included one called constructive play. And something I want to now bring in is the role of deconstructive play, which is something that I saw a lot of in my experience before I became an ECE, which I kind of talked about Episode Two, I was doing some outdoor education stuff in wild spaces. And I saw a lot of, I saw kind of like these routines that, that classes went through, like, oftentimes we went to this wild space, and then children kind of roamed around for a bit. And then there was often a deconstruction if they found like a fort that was already there, or some I don't even remember what all the different things were, but they would take things apart. Oh, sometimes it was just like old, like, not quite garbage, but like disposed of like signage or, like materials that were used to be up in the park somewhere. And I saw a lot of this. So at first, like part of me was I really had to work like emotionally because my reaction to this was like, why do we keep taking stuff apart, and oftentimes children would like end up in arguments because they would take each other's forts or dens apart. And it was my mentor who was like, deconstructing is like we deconstruct first, and then we construct. And so when we see children, like knocking each other's towers over or, you know, finding a lot of joy in just making things fall apart. That's actually really valid. And it's actually it can be considered one of the play schemas. 

So if you're not familiar with place schemas, welcome, they are a whole new world of looking at play. ECEs, y'all probably know this. But essentially, play schemas are kind of like I've heard them described as like urges that children have or like, obviously, folks compare them to like, the schema, like sort of that mental representation of something so it might be if it's deconstructing it might actually be that a child is exploring the schema of like gravity, or the schema of the way things fall apart. So that could be it as well. But the important thing is that these are established patterns of play. And once you are able to see them in children and once you're able to realize like, Oh, it's not just that the children are interested in blocks. When it when they're using the blocks. I see them, pushing them over all the time. Oh, that could deconstructing play schema cool, how can we extend an explore an elaborate that place schema with different learning materials in different spaces, etc, etc. So let's get to know some other place game as there I think there are like, I don't know, like eight. Here. Let me look it up. I'm gonna look up Actually, I'll link this in the show notes, but Michelle Thornhill has this beautiful chart of play schemas, and then types of materials. So on the chart, it includes like, what loose parts might be useful for a play schema, how you might engage in like, large, large play, or what commercial tools you might have. Okay, so we have a connecting place schema where individuals are really interested in how objects connect together, and something okay, so I actually want to pause on this for a second, because in early learning, we do a lot of or we aim to do a lot of emergent curriculum, which means that educators don't predetermine what themes or topics, we're going to learn together with the children. We instead, we might put out some provocations at the beginning some interesting setups to see what the children do. But then we wait and observe to see what children are interested in what they're asking questions about. And, and then we plan our programming and curriculum based off of those interests. And sometimes I think we get stuck on the topic of something rather than the concept. And so sometimes I see children really interested in trains, so maybe they're using, like sets of trains, you know, with the little magnet connectors. And they're always playing with those trains with the magnet connectors. So like, early ECE Kim might have been like, oh, child really likes trains, cool. We're going to put out some books about trains and talk about trains. And then Kim, maybe like a year ago, would have been like, oh, but play schemas, maybe they're interested in the connecting place schema. So maybe they're connecting. They're interested in the way that the trains are connecting magnetically, okay, let's put up some other things like connect, and see where it goes from there. So the trains is like the topic connecting could be the concept. But another concept might be something larger, like transportation or movement. It might be machines. So I'm just bringing this up, because I think ECEs are overwhelmed all the time with work and the sector that we work in. And it's easy for us to not think more deeply about what might be so interesting to children. So I know this is a side tangent, but when we think of when we're watching children, engaged with materials, and we're looking and looking and waiting to see what the interest is, oftentimes, we have to like go a lot more deeper than we might initially think we might have to put out additional materials before we really understand what the children are interested in and also engage them in really deep conversations about why do you like the trains? What is it that you find exciting about using these trains every day? 

Okay, back to play schemas. Another play schema is I'm just moving through this document right now but like the deconstructing one another one might be disconnecting. So again, taking maybe it's actually taking the trains apart, that is the fun part. Another could be trajectory, which is a common play schema that if you don't know it, and children are throwing objects in the classroom, oftentimes you consider it to be a behavioural concern when really it's an interest in how things are move on a trajectory and how gravity influences objects. Another common place schema is enclosing or enveloping. So how things get hidden if they're put inside something. So maybe the child is always putting trains inside a basket or covering it with a cloth or something like that. That's enveloping, you might see like vertical or horizontal dynamics, so like building things up or building things sideways. That could be a play schema. One of my favourite ones is basically how things spin, move. And they have some examples here like watching CDs or watching objects roll or watching like water moves down a drain. Another play schema might be watching things go through a boundary. So some of the examples here are like ice fishing or putting limbs through something like something with a hole. So like moving like objects into each other, I guess kind of another might be going around a boundary. So it might be I actually think that I have this one a lot because I like trace mentally and physically like different like objects and like boundaries. Okay, another play schema is transporting. This one's pretty obvious, putting objects into a container and moving them. Another could be ordering or positioning, which I love this one as a place schema, because so I can't count the number of times I've heard adults worried about children who are really interested in lining things up and looking really closely and being very attentive to the detail about the way the objects are positioned. And this is one that I think there may come with a level of fixation at times, because there, there is clearly like a mental set of rules that are being followed. But it's also there are just like so many skills that the child is using when doing that. And also, like probably such a regulating experience to put things in order. So play schema! Another one is transforming, which is again, one of my favourites. And this one could be like mixing colours, or like creating a recipe like watching things transform. Another play schema could be like orientation, or taking perspectives. So this could be like the way actually let me read some examples. Oh. So this could be like looking through holes maybe like hanging upside down even. perspective taking. Another one can be like aggregating or a cumulative effect. And this one is just like so cool to consider. So like this could be the image here is like a bunch of like tiny dots that create kind of a larger pattern slash colour when they're mixed together. And so I think that this one obviously really speaks to like art, or like creation, creating something with like a larger purpose. But just such also a beautiful example of children's competence and the things that they might be thinking about. So play schema. Another one is sound, which we all know I am obsessed with. So this could be like, children really interested in just making sounds. In my last episode, I talked about a child tapping on the garbage can. But it could also be like, if maybe they're dropping their spoon over and over again, because they're exploring the sound that it makes, you know, like, we, we have to keep our minds open to these things. 

And then another thing I want to bring up with play and play schemas is that oftentimes play involves the five senses. So sight, smell, oh, gosh, why is this so hard? taste, sound. And what am I missing? sight smell, sound taste, oh, and touch. However, if you didn't know this yet, sometimes we consider there to be more than five senses. And those senses include things like proprioception, which is like the position of your body in space. And children might explore this by pushing on an object and really understanding where their body finishes and where an object begins. Another is exploring their vestibular system, so like their balancing skills, and that might be explored through swinging or through like literally balancing like walking on upstairs or along like a curb of some kind. And then the final system, sometimes considered part of the sensory systems would be interoception, interception? interception? I don't know. which essentially means like the feeling of bodily sensation, so like how hot or cold you are, how hungry you might be, how thirsty you are. So these things I'm bringing these up, because children may or may not be making decisions based on the all of the senses. And as people supporting plays slash engaging in play, we can also be thinking about how our play experiences involve all of these senses or not. And or it might just be like a regulatory feeling like how they regulate some of these experiences or sense But it also might be how they engage them. So it's just like other things to keep in mind, I'm actually gonna link a cool document I just found in the show notes that talks about the senses, and then kind of shows like neuroscience wise, what is happening with each of the systems. Okay, so the last few things I want to say about play is that, while I was researching play for this episode, I came across a couple articles that I did not have time to include. 

So I'm obviously gonna have to do a few more episodes where I go deeper on what play is and what play isn't. And one of the articles was by an author named Dr. Patrick Lewis, and it was talking about how play is deteriorating. And a kind of bookmarked it because it wasn't exactly what I wanted to touch on. But it was, you know, something I'm still interested in. So I bookmark bought. And then I just so happened to be given this book for a class that I am the teaching assistant for. And the book is called early years education and care in Canada, if historical and philosophical overview. So you know, it's my jam, because it's like getting into some philosophical considerations and like, the theory and practice of teaching and learning, which is pedagogy. And then I was just flipping through, okay, let me let me just find it. And lo and behold, Chapter Two is called the spirituality of play. And it's by Patrick L. Lewis. This chapter itself, I will highly recommend, and I'll link the book in my show notes. But one quotation that I really liked. So something I really liked in this chapter was that it talks about play as one thing thing I really liked about this chapter is that he talked about how play is kind of this inevitable experience that is older than culture. It kind of comes before teaching, like it's something that we just, we inherently do. And it's not just us, centering ourselves as humans. And I want to be careful not to compare like children to animals, but like, we, like other species also engage in play quite freely. And the way that Patrick specifically talks about it, I don't think I even finished reading this chapter, I got to like, page three, and I was like, Oh, I have to talk about it. So there's this little box that shows a summary of Brian Sutton Smith, seven rhetorics of play. And the first rhetoric of play is called progress. And the says here, so progress argues that play is a developmental process of children and animals but not adults. It has dominated euro-american thinking more as a belief than a demonstrated fact that children's play is about development and learning rather than enjoyment. Would you look at that, I feel like we're coming full circle to the beginning when I was trying to figure out if plays serious or not. So this idea of prioritizing development within play. I mean, as he sees that's inevitable, our job is to be looking for Developmental skills within play, but also, it's also to respect to play as something that is near enjoyment. And I don't know if we have enough, like, pleasure and enjoyment in the society. So I like that that's something that's been highlighted here and rhetorics can be critiqued, right? Like a rhetoric is like an argument that people are trying to make. So you can like deconstruct this and say, like, well hang on, like, his play about development, though. Like, if it's kind of this inevitable thing. Like, sure it it has developmental value and meaning, but maybe I'm thinking like naturally, like, kind of progressive development. It gives me a headache thinking about a bit, but I there are parts of bringing things back to development that can be critiqued, so play can happen just for its own right. And it's sort of the child if you weren't aware yet. I'll link that in my show notes, too. 

Okay, so another rhetoric of play is fate, one of the oldest rhetorics, which sees human lives in play controlled by the gods. And I think that that one's just interesting. I'm not particularly religious person. So I don't know about this whole like being influenced by a higher power, but it's interesting to think about like, okay, and the third rhetoric of play is power, and ancient rhetoric, exemplified through sports, athletics and contests that very much persists today. It is a representation of conflict to consolidate the status of those who control the play, or those who are its heroes. It rises out of warfare, and the patriarchy and is Anna Thema to modern play theory of progress. I don't even know if I pronounce that word, right? This is like a really big thought my brain is like a little bit hurting, but shout out to calling out the patriarchy. Heck yes. Modern play theory of progress, power play and power rule. Okay, I'm gonna have to think about this one a bit more. But like, yes, yes, yes, yes. The fourth, rhetoric of play is identity. This refers to the culture and community identity, when such play in the form of festivals, traditions and celebrations reaffirmed and or maintained the community's identity. Ooh, that's an interesting one to think about. Yeah, there's, there's probably like so much play that happens that is really reinforcing and validating who we are, and maybe the role of soccer. It is aligned with this idea of identity, not just maybe that's like the larger vision here. Maybe it's not actually about play, playing a game of soccer to win a game of soccer, although I know that is the ideal. But you know, maybe it's about a bigger identity. I never thought about that. Clearly. I'm like, not a sports person. I am music and sit in my bedroom and podcast kind of person. The fifth rhetoric of play is imaginary, which argues that the importance of play is integral to imagination, flexibility and creativity, and is sustained by modern positive attitudes toward creativity and imagination, okay. I like this one. I'm curious, I should probably read, I feel like he probably like deconstruct these and I'm like, hey, they're so good. And then the author might have a million reasons why they're not so good. Anywho, on the surface. I like this one. I do have some critiques about constantly, like idealizing creativity. I do think that there are like, I don't even know, there's probably some limits to this, but like, yes, imagination, flexibility, this is me, like okay, for this, you know, me being this person who plays guitar and like sits around and podcasts. I like live a lot in my head a lot of the time, you know, like I am sitting here imagining and envisioning, and like dreaming, and that all feels playful, and I wish it was more highly rewarded. I wish I could, you know, like, pay my bills and find my groceries by imagining maybe one day but not yet. And so that leads me to basically this idea that, you know, we really have a long way to go before adult play is much more respected. 

Okay, the sixth rhetoric of play is self emphasizes the desirable experiences of players the fun enjoyment, pleasure and joy, and the intrinsic and aesthetic satisfactions of the play performances. Hmm, I guess that makes me think of like consuming like, like, like movies shows going to plays like kind of experiencing or I guess engaging in them because if we're playing we're the ones maybe probably doing them. But unlike socio dramatic play, I like this idea of aesthetics coming in, though and I don't know I'm probably just saying that because I literally just rearranged my living room and I plants all have this like, beautiful lineup that I get to look at while I sit here in podcast. Yeah, interesting rhetoric of play for the self. I wonder how that ties into thinking about you know, whether we live in individualistic cultures or interdependent cultures? More, you know, communal cultures. The self Yeah. How do self and identity and group like group identity play into this? I wonder?

Okay, the final rhetoric of play is frivolous, historically applied to the trickster or fool characteristics that were at the heart of Carnival, enacting playful protests against the authorities of the day, more recently applied to the ideal or foolish, but inverts the work ethic view of play against which all other rhetorics exist as rhetorics of rebuttal. Who, okay, this is totally a full circle moment. Okay. I've loved this idea of totally challenging the hierarchy and power and authorities of the day. I love this idea of bringing out trickster which I think is probably from indigenous culture and stories if I'm not mistaken. And that's also probably a generalization because I'm not sure if it was one group or multiple groups that used trickster in their stories. And I love this idea inverts the work ethic view of play. against which all other rhetorics exist as retort acts of rebuttal. Wow. work ethic. Yeah, I'm still confused as to other players work. So I'm glad that this is an ongoing episode or an ongoing podcast, I should say. I'll have to just keep circling back to that and see how I'll figure it out. 

Okay, there's one final quote I want to read here. And I think the author's quoting someone else named Nagel, which says that play is an elusive term, which defies all conceptualization, in part because we are already so familiar with it. Oh, that's exactly what I was trying to like kind of articulate the beginning before I realized that it actually completely connected to this quote in the book. Yeah, we all kind of like feel like we know play already. Like why am I here making an episode about play, we already experienced play growing up, hopefully we're trying to find ways to play as adults. Yeah, like why? Like, it almost feels very meaningless to try and to find play, because we already probably know it. But like, the quote says, it's kind of elusive and like ambiguous, like, how do we actually pin down play if it's something that kind of can evolve and ebb and flow with time? All right, the final thing, the final final thing I really wanted to end off on is that I'm aiming to keep this podcast as playful as possible. So that looks like to me not using themes, right? Like, if I'm gonna be arguing that play is something that is self chosen. And that has a larger purpose than the outcome. I'm probably gonna attempt to steer away from the use of themes and probably instead do some do some longer term exploration of things. Or I might even really evolve and like, you know, take it a different direction if that's where my interests lie. So I know I said in the first episode, I have like so many topics and guests mapped out. And I'm aiming my best to follow through with that. But you know, already as I go, I'm learning so much about podcasting so much about you know, so much about myself in terms of where a lot of my biases still lie within a different topics. And I'm also learning.

As I go, I'm realizing where some of my knowledge gaps lie. And so then I'm like, Oh, I want to go down a rabbit hole and learn about this thing over here. So I guess the point of me saying all this is just that I'm not sure what else to expect, I've given some groundwork for my vision for the podcast, and we'll just see where it goes from there. Thanks so much for listening to me ramble about play, this is probably going to be one of my longer episodes. And I feel like I didn't even give you anything to walk away from this with. So if you're leaving this feeling more confused than you felt when you started listening, I highly recommend the show notes. Go check out some of the resources that are written much more concisely, or check out Kristen's podcast because she's really good at giving you small bites to think about, where as I am not as good at doing that yet, I just want to talk things out. So those are my suggestions. And as always, I accept full responsibility for any mistakes, inaccuracies, omissions, or oversights made in this episode. And in this podcast in general, due to my own ignorance and privilege. One way I'm looking to move forward with this kind of thinking is to plan to compensate some future guests for their time, expertise and lived experience, especially those of which, who hold identities, and that are from groups that I'm not a part of, and the identities that I don't hold. So if you're looking to contribute to this idea, you can consider going to my GoFundMe page which is go fund.me/157 a34a7. Additionally, you can always just reach out to me on Instagram, my handle is at playful pedagogies You can also check out my website for the show notes which is playful pedagogies.ca and feel free to send me an email it's kem@playfulpedagogies.ca Alright, that's all folks. Thanks for listening. Stay playful