The Menopause Sh*t Show: A commentary on 'Meno-Diaries' with Jacqueline Golding

TW: Mentions of Suicide and Medical symptoms.

Episode 014

In this episode, I am discussing 'Meno-Diaries' with the author, Jacqueline Golding.

Jacqueline Golding is an entrepreneur of 12 years and now a first-time author with her debut book ‘The Diaries of Menopausal Women’.

 After meeting her menopause head-on, Jacqueline returned to her childhood love of writing. With a new sense of freedom and her usual compassion and empathy, she decided that her debut would encompass the voices of the voiceless. 

 Jacqueline has been praised for her encouragement of other women to own their truths and empower their sisters in their menopausal journeys. 

 Jacqueline has been featured in the Yorkshire Evening Post, Leeds Live TV and Business Mondays amongst other popular publications and podcasts.

We discuss:

• Jacqueline's background
• The process of writing 'Meno-Diaries'
• The Menopause shit show - society's idea of what the menopause is.
• Understanding and Education
• Symptoms and Reactions
• Menopause and The Workplace
• Menopause and Relationships
• The acceptance of Menopause
• Mindset 
• Empowerment

Connect with Jacqueline here:

Website: Menopause book | Menodiaries

Linkedin: Jacqueline Golding | LinkedIn

Facebook: Meno Diaries | Facebook

Instagram: Meno Diaries (@menodiaries) • Instagram photos and videos

Twitter: Meno Diaries (@menodiaries) / Twitter

Pintrest: Pinterest

EVERYDAY DETERMINATOR PODCAST

Buzzsprout: The Everyday Determinator Podcast (buzzsprout.com) 

Website: Podcast – Construction Cheer Leader (

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Welcome to the everyday determinator podcast with your host, Okafor founder of the determinator collective we want to help you get off that hamster wheel of life and turn you into an everyday the Terminator by sharing stories for Americans who have overcome varying challenges in life and careers and by reviewing and signposting you to helpful resources to start you on the journey to achieving your goals. For more information on the determinator collective, please visit www dot Anne okafor.co. UK. Thanks for listening determinator.

Anne Okafor: 0:50

Hello, and welcome to the everyday determinator Podcast. Today I'm talking with Jacqueline Goldin, the author of manual diaries, and I'm just going to show the book now remember to do so I'm going to do it up to my face so that we can see. And that's the book that we're going to be discussing today. Jacqueline is a first time author of British Irish and Jamaican heritage, who used writing in her younger years to express herself and escaped painful childhood. Adulthood had taken her away from writing and she pursued a career as a youth worker and a family support worker, I am really glad to have a friend that she has found her way back to writing. This book was a real eye opener for me. But it was also stuff with really, really useful information, while sharing stories of some everyday determinate hours dealing with menopause, and accounting and compassionate with her ability to relate and share our story alongside the sisterhood of women who had also experienced the menopause, or in some cases had yet to experience, which is my experience at the moment has had some real impact on me. And how I am coming to view the menopause as a woman who has very little knowledge of it up until now. And pretty much my knowledge of a society is very old fashioned, and my new formed opinion just wrong and often damaging as well to the women who are going through these challenges. Today, we learn more about this book, and the diabetes within and the stories of these everyday determinates within them. And you'll want to stick around for this case. So hi, Jacqueline, rather long introduction. I appreciate that. Great to have you with us today. So as you know, I've read the book. And I want to firstly start by congratulating you on such an important and valuable resource that you've created here. And secondly, to thank you for the opportunity to learn from the lessons from the sisterhood of women, and for the way that you put it together. I love that I felt like I was in the room having a conversation with you when I was reading it. And the whole time, I just got a sense of you. But also the challenges and the empowerment that menopause can bring a stage in a woman's life. So to start, let's have a little chat about you and your journey. You know, you've very much been all through your life. And I get this from the book that everything you've done really is about helping others. You know, you started off jobs at a very young age, you know, for helping others and doing things helping yourself. And then you went into a career that was very much about helping others. And now you're writing this book, which is also helping others. So I just want you to introduce yourself and let our listeners get an essence of who Jacqueline Gordon is.

Jacqueline Golding: 3:33

How long have we got? Yeah, I mean, it was sort of following having quite a painful childhood. And that's what gives me joy. So you know, whether it's just helping somebody in a supermarket, I'm very tall. So people often ask me to have some things off the top shelf, or if it's kind of helping people psychologically, and I think when I first started working with people, I was a youth worker, so and I was younger. So I felt like I could relate. You know, we were similar ages, I used to look after people I was only 18. And kids I worked with with sort of 1010 12 just hitting the sort of teenage years. Then as I kind of got a little bit older, I have my own company actually doing domiciliary care, so I help elderly people, adults, and then I'm hitting menopause. And it's like, well, I can really, you know, I can share that pain, the stories, I think because I'm quite a strong personality. I've got no, no shame in that. And I've never had any shame in, in being very open with what I've experienced, because I find kind of strength in that. Yes,

Anne Okafor: 4:40

absolutely. And I think there's there's a lot to be said for that. But I, you know, I really get that sense from the book that you know, all the way through, you're helping people you're listening. You're very good similarly at listening, and I really get that from the interviews and the observations you make even about the women that you spoke with, you know the observations you make about who they are really added to this experience for me. And then I, you know, I really appreciated that about the book. So let's talk about the process of writing the book, you know, you interviewed many women for this project, you know, from many different backgrounds and many different experiences all with different experiences of the menopause or not even experienced the menopause. So set the scene for us, what did the process of writing this book look like?

Jacqueline Golding: 5:25

Well, I talked about that the book launch. And in fairness, I'm quite a spiritual person. So I think when things are meant to happen, they will just happen quite organically. And I just kind of kept getting these thought processes along the way. And it was quite a quick process. I mean, we started in April, and we were published by November. And I've worked in different fields in society for many, many years. And diversity is key, you know, from Leeds, I love that about the city that I live, is that we come in all different shapes, sizes, cultures, colours, life is about diversity. And I figured that if I could just get as many different experiences, then that is going to be the best benefit to wider society, isn't it? Because even though my experience is quite harsh, that's not going to be everybody's experience. And every time I got thought, so I was like, you know, we need somebody from the Asian community, or we need somebody from the LGBT community, they just came very, quite organically. And that's why I'm really positive about the book that it was meant to be. It was meant to happen the time is now. It's not about there's a taboo, let's break. It's about, it's done. Now, we need to just talk.

Anne Okafor: 6:41

No, absolutely. And I completely agree with that, you know, we must talk about this and haven't read the book that comes out much more for me, because I think part of the beauty of having so many different women with different experiences and backgrounds is that every single person had something very, very unique. Yes, think about that experience. And, you know, we know what society says about menopause. It's, you know, women's, you know, that time of them the thing, it's the change, it's the that, you know, just leave them alone, they'll be fine in a couple of years. But actually, the experiences and the actual level of differences within them was actually really surprising for me. And we really need to talk about this because it affects everything as well, you know, what affects our work life, it affects our home life, our family, the relationships, we have our health, you know, absolutely everything. So, you know, we absolutely need to talk about this, and hence why I've asked you here today, and why I'm so glad that you've agreed to do so. So let's talk about what I believe you termed the book, the menopause show. And I want to turn it that way. Because the way we think about it at the moment is a shit show, you know, not so much the menopause itself, but actually the way it's approached and the way it's dealt with, I think in society for me, and I think that was probably a shift for me, because, you know, we've talked about it. And I think there's maybe some fear that I had beforehand about what it looks like, you know, nobody really talks about it, but then also, because nobody really talks about it. What's the big deal? It also there was that kind of conflicting kind of attitudes that I had beforehand. And now, I'm like, Why the hell? Are we not talking about this? We need to be talking about this. A society has a huge part to play in this, don't you think?

Jacqueline Golding: 8:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's every area of societies in it. And I spoke about in the book, you know, I'm an employer, when it's something I hadn't thought about until I hit my own menopause. But it does affect your work, your work life, it affects your families, even down to sort of medical professionals, that's quite a tough one, because they're the people that you think will be there to support you. I just think we need to get education across the board. Definitely. Because that is where the empowerment and the freedom comes. Because once you know, and then you know how you can look for things to deal with this. That's when the the feeling of, you know, togetherness, you know, you're not in this alone, you know, you're not going crazy. All the things you know, I think there was a lady in the paper just this week, wasn't she from the one of the good morning shows. And she did an article saying, you know, I felt like I was going crazy. I don't feel like I can go to work. It's it affects you know, everyday people, famous people, everybody.

Anne Okafor: 9:32

I think the thing is, as well as when we hear about it, we read about it in the media, and even when we do talk about it even in a limited way. It's very negative. It's very much like I was going crazy. I felt like I was losing my mind. I was out of control. You know, nothing good is coming from any of that conversation. We're talking about the bad stuff. And yes, we need to talk about that. But if that's all people hear, then we can't really be surprised like Guess that society also has that view. And society probably amplifies that, you know, because women think it, then they kind of maybe don't expect other people to think it. But then they, that's all they know, because that's all we see is the bad stuff, or we don't talk about it at all. And I think one of your ladies had said that for her, the freedom from all this came from the acceptance and the recognition of it. And I think that starts with awareness. Because you can't accept something, if you don't know what is involved. And, you know, there's lots involved and, you know, I went through this emotional roller coaster with this book, there's a lot in there, and there is a crazy amount of stuff that, you know, people have experienced, I think, in your book, you know, 20 identifiable symptoms, I mean, that's a huge list of stuff. And they're just, you know, probably the most common things that most people identify with, the alarming thing that really struck me was how many each of the women had experienced, or most of the women had experienced, some had very little, or maybe hadn't recognised them. But when people actually had recognised that they were menopause symptoms, there was a great deal of this list. And I mean, this list, you know, it's got, you know, some incredible symptoms on that as well, you know, from headaches and difficulty sleeping, but, you know, we talk about that, and everyday life is, you know, it's a headache and difficulty sleeping. But these are kind of quite extreme extents of headaches, and difficulty sleeping and brain fog. And the normal things we know about menopause, like the hot flashes, I mean, that's probably one of the only things that I was aware of pre this book, and possibly, you know, period stop and that sort of thing. But there's just so much more, you know, pain, you know, actual physical pain that people are getting, you know, relate to everything that you're doing in your life, or could possibly hinder what you're trying to do. And it's a guess, about finding ways of learning to live with these things, learning to manage them. And one of the things that I really noticed was that everybody had such a different experience. And that was quite a hard thing to, I guess, realise, because it's hard, you know, I guess, when everyone's got a head that we can all relate to, that we can all see. And I get that. And maybe that's something why we don't talk about menopause, you know, because it is so individual, but I really do think it's why we need to talk about it, to share that knowledge and share that experiences. A lot of the women, as you mentioned earlier, had difficulties with them GPS, health care professionals, you know, dismissing it, almost brushing it off, not understanding it, not identifying them even, you know, in some cases, you know, they were told, you know, you're too young go away. I mean, that just seems incredible. With all the symptoms there, you'd think it would be fairly, obviously, and on top of the questions, you know, but in most cases, I mean, people were, I think, even in your own case, you were sent for MRI scans and things like that. And it was something really sinister. Before this was a question, and to me, that just seems absolutely bizarre. I mean, share your thoughts on that sort of situation.

Jacqueline Golding: 13:09

Absolutely. And I think it goes back to education, doesn't it? Because I kept pushing and pushing the doctor, I did a little search on Google. And it was like, all the symptoms. Point to that, you know, obviously, I've had changes in my period, and the headaches, the joint pain, and they just wouldn't accept it. I mean, their answers, are you just too young? No, that's it. It's definitely not that. So it's all this kind of negative impacts on everything else. I mean, that there's the financial impact, I even Googled, how much does an MRI cost? You know, and it's almost 600 patents? I think I have to, to be honest. And yeah, I mean, it's it's education, education for GPS, if people then kind of search out and understand it, then it's that acceptance. And that's what comes with, then the beauty of the empowerment because I've been happy ever since as soon as I knew what it was.

Anne Okafor: 14:03

Because I think, you know, what I got a sense from the women who had similar experiences was that, you know, being told that you need to go for an MRI scan is a big deal, you know, the added stress of that really just exacerbates these other symptoms, doesn't make it any better, you're then thinking that you've got something majorly wrong with it, you know, that's a huge thing to sort of get your head around. And then there's that kind of when you are told, their mind is clear. You know, there's nothing that we can see wrong, then you're back to square one and feeling like, Am I going crazy again? And that sort of like, I guess, identity piece where, you know, I don't think a lot of this relates to women's identity, it comes into question because you're, am I crazy, you know, everyone's telling me, I'm fine. Everyone's telling me I'm too young. But this is actually happening to me. And how do you sort of reconcile that with, you know, trying to fight and you know, and you've made comment in the book that not everybody has that ability to advocate for themselves? In that way, and that's quite a frightening thing, because you know how that must make people feel as well. Really quite a harsh realisation, I think. Yeah,

Jacqueline Golding: 15:10

I think one of my sort of pleasures from the book, because obviously, we've had quite a few people read it so far now is getting the reaction that I wanted, I mean, yourself, you've admitted that you're not quite there yet. But, you know, hopefully, you feel a bit more empowered and educated ready for it. I had a meeting with a lady yesterday, a beautiful sister who came to my book launch, she's read the book, she's not in the book, but she's read it. And since she read it, and a friend of hers, who's not in the menopause was trying to support her when she was going through it. And since reading the book, she's been like, well, the partner actually asked me, you know, I don't know how to deal with this, you know, all these things going on. So it's educating everybody. It's not just a menopausal woman, you know, she's children. I think it's that breaking a taboo in society, isn't it? And a lot of the women who I interviewed, really pleased, I'm pleased, have gone on to say, you know, straight away, talk to my kids, we need to change it. Our parents didn't talk to wolves. That's why we're like this. So let's break that cycle. Yeah, I think it's, it's reaching out and educated, I'm not sure about medical professionals, because it's not really my job to educate them. But I just think the everyday person, you know, trying to get that message across to them?

Anne Okafor: 16:31

Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, can you think of being in the workplace and suffering some of these symptoms that these women have been suffering, going to their work, holding together, their families, holding together childcare, doing all that, and then someone going, you must be going crazy, considering Well, there's nothing wrong, we're, you know, and then having to try and still do that day in day out. And just, if people had an awareness of the potential of this thing, they would treat it with much more kindness and respect as well, I think, you know, and I think there needs to be that, I think the women, most of the women had pretty severe feelings of out of control illness, disproportionate reactions, and, you know, emotional, sometimes in a physical way, to their emotions that they felt was even something that you know, what made them almost suicidal. I mean, that's a serious, really extreme feeling, you know, and, and to be, in that alone is really quite, you know, you don't want people to lie, I certainly don't want to feel like anyone that I know is in that place. But I guess when you're told so many times, there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you, we can't see anything, go away. You're too young, you know? Absolutely, then it's probably not asking people, you probably stop asking a point, you know, there's probably a point where you don't ask anymore, you know, you don't speak out anymore. And that's really serious.

Jacqueline Golding: 17:57

It is. And I think it's more common than we know, I know, there was a lady recently in the paper or her husband to committed suicide last year. And he's doing some work with the Samaritan suitor Linda salmon. But I've had conversations with women since writing the book. And several of them have said, I was in there among quite a lot of social media platform groups, and it comes up, you know, not from everybody, but at least once every few days that somebody says, you know, that is how I felt felt suicidal,

Anne Okafor: 18:31

you can when we're talking about mental health, you know, there's been a certainly an increase of that in workplaces conversations. Yeah. This needs to be part of that. Yes, yeah, definitely. No, absolutely does need to be part of that. It's quite shocking, it's quite hard for people to realise that. I'm probably maybe our listeners, or people who are learning about this, for the first time don't realise that that is the impact on people that are going through stages of menopause. And another big thing about, again, I suppose around the mental health piece is this question of identity. A lot of these symptoms, a lot of these reactions are the aftermath of these, you know, the way that people are responded to throws up a lot of question of identity, I feel and that's the, that's the impression I got from the book, that there was issues around confidence, there was issues around, you know, the relationships we hold at work and at home, in social settings, the way that we're sort of, you know, as women going through the menopause, it's very much seen as an old person thing, which I think, you know, for me, a really important thing that you said was, it's a new age problem that, you know, to do with, you know, life expectancies, and you're we're living longer now than what we were so maybe not so recent years, people just weren't even get into these stages. Also, you know, links with culture is treated differently in different cultures and the UK is very old fashioned. It's very much you know, Well, that's you, You're old now. And when you're old person, you're seen as less valuable in a lot of ways. And and that's quite a sad thing as well. And there's also physical things in terms of identity, I guess, you know, links to hair loss and hair thinning and things like that, that, that make women question who they are, just because that's the nature of us, you know, and the fact that we all have different experiences as well, I think that can be again, linked to the identity piece that, you know, metaphors for someone else might have been, they didn't really notice the same, or you don't know what they're not, because we didn't talk about it. But in some of these women, some of these symptoms have been going on words of 20 years for the period. I mean, that is absolute madness. You know, it's madness, that, you know, we're going through this thing potentially suffering for 20 plus years with something. And it's just dismissed. You know, it's just incredible to me that that is the case. I mean, I didn't realise that. And that's one of the things that's really, you know, and certainly it's not for everyone's experience, certainly, but in a lot of the women that started and 40s, you know, lives tend to be the case, sometimes earlier, sometimes a bit later. But it was still having effects in their 60s and onwards, you know, when that's a large amount of time to be dealing with something day in and day out. You know, it is, I think, the other thing that I really think is important when we talk about identity as this sort of not having this recognised, not having the validation of that recognition, and that, you know, a diagnosis an appropriate time, so that you can get help you can do the things that you were supposed to do when we, you know, we can do them anywhere we look after ourselves, and, you know, certainly having more conversations about that. But when everyone just tells you, there's nothing wrong, you're seeing things you're it's in your mind, you know, I've heard women talk about that you told us and their mind, you know, they're overthinking stuff, you know, there's nothing wrong you don't you say you went to the doctor, so you've taught MRI scan, that's fine. You know, we've done all these checks, what more do you want from us? That's gonna make you feel like you're losing your mind?

Jacqueline Golding: 22:16

Absolutely. And it's not a tax on your personality as well, isn't it? Because if you think about it, it's hormonal. So there's lots of actions that women do that they're not in control of. And so you've read the book, we don't just sit there and think, right, we're going to do this today. It's a hormonal reaction. So then you'll have people in your kind of circle who will criticise your character and how are you doing that? You just crazy. Are you doing that? You just whatever are you doing that why you're a big mouth or whatever. So you then you internalise it, you bury it yourself, you bring yourself if you the minute, I had a diagnosis, and I was like, right, it's that, then you can look at okay, how do I balance my hormones? How do I get myself you know, Meditation yoga, how do I do those things? So it's self care, isn't it? You know, that. It's just, it's really hard to come to terms with, it's really hard to come to terms with

Anne Okafor: 23:12

not and I really get that impression from, I think almost all of the women had that experience. That was very few that had maybe had prior insight from family. And again, that tended to be a cultural thing. Certainly in the UK, most of the women who were UK originated, didn't have that experience, it was very much not spoken about. And when we do talk about it's negative and even leaner, you said about hormonal? Hormonal, is it's basically the catch all for the women's a bit, you know, I mean, that's, you know, in society, that is the, the overarching kind of, you know, anything that a woman does, that's not, you know, acceptable in terms of what is viewed or key at the moment is, well, she's hormonal, she's this, she's that or it doesn't really leave room to then have this conversation. You know, once you're in that position, it's gonna be really hard to say, hey, wait a minute, you know, we need to have this conversation. And I think that's why we need the awareness to come Absolutely. First, we need this conversations to happen. You know, the workplace needs to get a grip of this. I think one of the statistics you mentioned in the book as well was around you know, divorce and relationships. A lot of women are don't feel supported. I think it was something like 76%. And in divorces as well, was 68, in this sort of age groups was 68% was initiated by the women. You know, and I guess that's a lack of understanding and a lack of understanding on both people's parts I guess to some extent, because we like you said we do all these things and have all these reactions. And if you don't understand them yourself, how can you communicate them to a partner? How can they understand these things? I guess that's kind of a hard reality for some people as well in that you might not feel like it's your fault because you You're, you're experiencing these things, someone else can't see it, you maybe tend to think it's their fault for not seeing what you're experiencing. But also you're not really understanding where that's coming from. So how can you articulate that to someone in your work? Or your children or your partner? It's really complex kind of, you know, it's just a roller coaster, really?

Jacqueline Golding: 25:23

You know, the thing you can, can you until you know, you can? Absolutely, yeah, it can cause a lot of damage if you don't understand, you know, as quickly as possible. Yeah, it goes right back to education, education, teaching people to be compassionate. Yeah, we talked about it a little bit while I was writing the book about my children, and daughters, and how their hormonal way you know, as women, we all go through kind of hormonal change, when we start up periods, are saying, men do this disown their daughters, do they, they just don't do that. No, they're gonna are the slamming doors and the doing whatever. But when it gets to this time, in life, when women get older, there's no compassion, you know, but it's the same thing. It's just that the other end of the scale, the behaviours can be very similar, you know, the emotional roller coaster. So, yeah, it needs to be people need to be taught compassion around this time.

Anne Okafor: 26:24

No, absolutely. I think there's lots to be done in that. And I think it needs to be starts with awareness and starts with conversations like these, it starts with resources, like your wonderful book, I'll start wanting to do that again. And I'll certainly be looking into this more so that I can be more prepared. Your book is absolutely a great starting point for that, you know, because it gives you an idea, yes, it's scary, you know, don't get me wrong, I was scared as hell, when I started reading that list. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, my gosh, but there's also the understanding that that's not everyone's experience, you know, when we only hear a negative, it's got to be scary, you know, I mean, it's, that we can help each other, when we talk about these things, we can help each other to understand and to, when we know more, we can do better, when we know more, we can be better, we can talk about things, we can help each other, we can help our partners and society to understand what this looks like for us. So that then people can realise, you know, we're not just being a bitch, we're actually suffering from something we've got symptom. And actually, in some cases, quite severe symptoms that, you know, are really difficult to then keep going with, you know, let's talk about so we've talked about the bad parts of it all, we want to talk about notice, you know, what helped some of these women in the dailies and how they started making the changes that when they had the knowledge, when they had the awareness, when they were able to start with acceptance, that was the sort of feeling of freedom that came for many of them. And I think, in fact, probably the best part of them. And I think, if not all of them in the book, there was a certain sense of freedom when they got to this point, that when they sort of had the understanding, they could communicate things better. Certainly another lady interviewed, that was talking about the workplace settings, had said that it was very, very much about communication with her team. And with, you know, maybe the people that she was important to, as well, our clients and things like that, and, and being able to articulate what you were going through. And being able to communicate that with them, allowed her some space to do the things she needed to do, and still have, you know, a very successful career. And you know, she's a mother and did all these wonderful things that women do, as well as managing the symptoms that she was going through. So what were some of the things that helped you, I know you talk about meditation quite a bit in the book and some other things. So what what would you say were the top things that helped you through your experience? First of all,

Jacqueline Golding: 28:55

I think it was definitely the acceptance first. So kind of accepting who I was the changes. And I think it was, it was the kind of the change in the mindset. So when you go through all the bad stuff going to them anymore. But when you go through all those things, you start to kind of lose your place in the world. So you're kind of questioning it. And especially, I do believe I'm quite a strong woman, and I've done quite a lot in my years. So you start to question, well, where's my place in society? What am I good for anymore? And it's quite sad. So once I kind of accepted Well, these are the changes this is what I'm going through, these are the things that I can do to help me feel better. I started to then change the narrative and think well, actually, I'm, you know, life's not over I can still do things and hence like the you know, the garden project and all the new dream setting up some new businesses right in the book. And I think the more I did, the more I kind of set that was a self therapy for me. So I was like, Yeah, I'm still doing things. I'm still working But yeah, just everyday things like, connecting with nature, you know, just being outside, you know that even vitamin D, you know, you kind of add spent a lot of time in the house hiding away from people at my worst. So I just started going outside and taking walks in pretty places. And yeah, just kind of remembering the really simple beauty of life because there's so much isn't there, like you just kind of when you're busy, busy, busy all the time just going to work coming home going to work, and you kind of don't always focus on the natural, beautiful things that are around us. Yeah,

Anne Okafor: 30:38

I think the point you make about mindsets really crucial. But in this, a lot of what we think is no, I certainly my thoughts about it to start with was just a physical thing. That, you know, it stopped periods, it's, you know, you get angry, you get about a hot flash, maybe can't sleep a bit, and you know, it's a couple of years or whatever it's done. So, which is still a long time. And, you know, that's not to minimise that. But that was very much about the physical aspects of it. probably bigger than that is the mindset part of it, like we've talked about before the identity and the that sort of the societal pressures around what you're supposed to be like, and what your what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, and our reactions and emotions, that mindset around all of this is really crucial in terms of your own empowerment, and getting through it as much as helping to, you know, educate your family and your, your workplace as well. I mean, we shouldn't have to educate people about this, I guess, but at a time where we need to, then we need to have these conversations, certainly in the workplace, you know, in order for there to be support available for women to be able to help me sometimes, you know, while they're not controllable, or manageable for some women, you know, having support available and having, you know, policies in place that allows sort of compassion around these things, you know, we shouldn't need to be told to become passionate and came to people, but you know, I guess I'm work settings and a lot of ways we need policies, because, you know, people don't generally do things unless there's a rules around them. And we're told to do them, you know, and there needs to be awareness, communication, certainly, over the whole piece. I think one of the things that struck me was that a lot of women seen a sense of, what do you term feelings of pause, and it was almost like, everything's on hold, like, everything's like, Stop, still, you're dealing with this and everyone else has sort of busying themselves around going on with their day to day life. And you're kind of in this moment by yourself on pause, dealing with this invisible thing, and I say invisible, because nobody else around you seems to acknowledge it and understand it. Well, you're dealing with something that's really quite severe, really quite hard to deal with. And there's really very little support around. And I think, you know, sometimes, you know, it made me question in the book, whether, you know, we're certainly talking in industry, certainly in the construction industry, where I am about retention of women in the industries after childbirth, and things like that, and having children. But this is another element where I'm guessing we probably lose a lot of women that these sorts of ages. And I'm sure that's probably true for a lot of other industries, too. But it's certainly in conversations of job retention. This isn't something that I'm aware comes up very often, and it really needs to be, especially when we're talking about women at a senior level looking to get promotions. And, you know, when you're in your 40s, when, you know, typically, you know, when I appreciate that it's not everybody's experienced at these ages, and some people can start earlier and some people later, but when you're in your 40s 50s, and the career, you know, that sort of stage in your career is when you would be making these senior moves. And we're talking about there's no women in boardrooms, there's very little women in boardrooms, what's happening, and a lot of their attitude is, well, they don't want to take these roles. It's not, they're not in the industries, because they probably, you know, been in such severe cases of coping with some of these symptoms. I'm sure that's been the case for some women. And it really made me question why we're not bringing that up. You know, a conversation around retention, you know, we've kind of, I guess, acknowledged childbirth and child rearing as as a cause, but we seem to have not got to that point on menopause. Yeah. And I think it's equally as important.

Jacqueline Golding: 34:33

Yeah. And I think some companies are, are getting their view. And I'm starting to do some talks with some companies, but it seems to be mainly women, menopausal groups, like support groups, doing some book readings and things like that for bigger companies. And I think that's the way in but I think with education, there's so many different areas that you can hit because there's also that you know, from when you're younger Getting into colleges making it, you know normalising it. That is something that we talk about, I definitely think communication is the key. I think at hall that the way that I've written the book with this, so many stories, and that kind of communication, anecdotal, it's quite easy for people to connect. And I think you were talking about how I felt what things happen, that made me feel a little bit better. And I think because I was writing the book, I got my own therapy, because I actually was able to reach out and speak to lots of women. So that's why I kind of I'm quite positive about the style of book that talk to people,

Anne Okafor: 35:38

you definitely get that. And I really felt a sense of, I was having a conversation with you and these women, when I was in the moment of reading the book, I felt like I was almost in a support group having the conversations, like, similar to what we're having just No, it was very candid, it was very open, that was honest, you know, it was kind of warts and all. But that's part of the beauty of it, because you know, nothing was kind of taboo, like it is in society at the moment. And I think we really need to have more of those conversations. I've probably had more conversations in the last three months about menopause, and I've had the rest of my life. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for the opportunity for that, because having not reached it yet, I've got an opportunity to build up some knowledge and build up some awareness around it so that I can communicate, and hopefully my experience wherever, physically, emotionally, mentally, that looks like in terms of what menopause has to throw at me, hopefully, I'll be able to navigate that and help others too. And that's the beauty of what I've got from the book. And I'm hoping and I'm sure absolutely certain other people will get that. And no matter what experience, I think, even for people who have been through that just reading that other people have been there and had similar experiences will give them some sort of feeling of relief, maybe and then, yeah, you just feel like you're in the room with the girls, you know. And that's really what I got from it. And I'm sure other people will get that. Talking about the mindset. Again, I just wanted to highlight the Japanese comparison to this, because again, that really stuck with me, we talked a little bit earlier about the mindset and the societal, and something I'm going to really think about when I think about menopause in the future is the way the Japanese think of it. And as the sort of regeneration renewal, you know, a different season almost of life, rather than that you're old. And it's a really severe mind shift. But certainly, that's what I'm going to be talking about it in that way, I'm going to be thinking about it in that way for myself that it's a different season. And I think one of the ladies referred to as it might be yourself, embracing your crone and just you know, doing that things that you want to do in that season, but just going for it with your whole heart. And, you know, that's a great lesson, you know, just embrace it. And it is a difficult thing. But actually, it can be an empowering thing hour in Yeah, and you know, from that comes lots of beautiful things as well. And I think we need to focus more on that, with an awareness of the negatives that we've highlighted much of, but focusing much more on this, you know, a new season, and I think you you term as well as a life by your own design. And I really think that that if we all started thinking in that way, and communicating in those terms about this, then, you know, we can make this better for the next lot of people coming through myself included. Definitely. And on that note, one thing I really wanted to highlight and this was a part of the story, I think it's an important part to mention. It made me quite emotional. And I know it may make you also bet the conversation that you had with your neighbour Fiona. Oh, okay. Just because I think that we can almost have a lesson and that you know, that there's a point where we don't know, who's suffering with what, you know, your next door neighbours, and you didn't you weren't aware that this woman was going through this. I think we all have a Fiona potentially, if not more than one Fiona. And I think that, you know, talking about this and supporting the sister who didn't you know, I love that sort of feel of this book in the book is very much about the sisterhood and empowered and part of this, you know, and and will be focused on the, some of the negative things about the menopause, and rightly so because it is important. But, you know, I just want to say that, you know, when you talk about you also talked about your angels in the book and people that supported you and lifted you and, you know, by writing this book, you're going to be an angel to many I'm sure you're certainly one of my I know, you're on the list, if there was a list, but this book is really important and I just want people to know that I want them to take away from this that you know, certain labour feel. Now we all have that and talk about it so that we can make that less of a thing and more of a sisterhood, more of a support. We can be there for each other. And just to know It's okay to talk about it because a lot of people still don't and don't talk about it, it's still very much hidden. So I just wanted to highlight that. And, you know, I appreciate you putting that in the book as well, because I think it's an acknowledgement that even as women, we don't get it right. You know, we want other people to listen to us and support the the awareness, but we're not there ourselves quite yet. And having these conversations together, supporting each other is important. And, you know, I really want people to get that from the book, if more than anything else, I think it's talk about it, talk about it, and talk again, and talk some more. And that's really, I think that's what the first part of this is, it's awareness so that people know that it's okay to talk, it's okay to seek out help. Because it isn't the vagina, I think that and the other big thing I took was that everybody's experience with this is going to be different. It's super individualised, no two women have the same experience may have the same symptoms, not necessarily the same recipe of symptoms, but it's very individual and the treatment and how to deal with it will also be very individual. But by sharing our experiences and our stories, and our thoughts and feelings, you know, I don't really have much to contribute in the way of my experience to menopause, because I haven't been there yet. But I can help with what I think about it, what I thought about it, what was useful also, to younger women as well that haven't got there yet, like me, you still can contribute to these kinds of conversations, because we are part of society companies and about thoughts and feelings that we've been passed down, that we get from society, and actually, you know, it's part of your knowledge piece to make us better for yourself in the future. But, you know, become equipped with the knowledge that you need to help you with this transition into a different season in your life. You know, I think that's really important. So I think we've chatted quite a lot. And what I wanted to do is just ask you, what would be your top three tips for someone, you know, in this sort of area, whether looking at menopause, or they're close to, or haven't reached there yet, what would be your top three tips around this?

Jacqueline Golding: 42:04

I think my first one is speaking out. I think that that goes for whoever you are, you've just quite beautifully put it in the sense that you're not going through the menopause. But we have younger people. And one of the positives that I've noticed coming from it is younger women, even in their 20s, who haven't gone through the menopause yet, but they're starting to then reflect on their relationship with their own mothers, and that they didn't understand it. And they're thinking I've maybe had a fractured relationship with mom for years. And it could have been this. So there's, for me, there's so many positives that can come through talking, just speaking out when you need help us that whole sisterhood. That's why we're pushing the brand that way. So toc toc toc. Second thing would be to just fully understand that you're not alone, we're all going to go through it in some way, shape, or form. Even if it's not ourselves, it could be our friends that are going through it and how we kind of keep those relationships well. And then the third one, and I'm not sure this might be the most important, but I saved the best for last is self care. And whatever that looks like for you take time to look after yourself. Whether it's a nice bath, lovely candles, just look after yourself meditation.

Anne Okafor: 43:22

I think we're so good at women, given our attention to everyone else, everybody else that self about it, and we put ourselves on the back burner, and then it really doesn't align well with all the symptoms. If you're having all these symptoms, you need to be in a place where you can take time a moment. Yeah, and you know, really is very important. It's very important anyway, that we need to learn to do that more effectively. But certainly when these situations, yeah, you know, even more important to make sure you have time just for you to do something you enjoy and just be you I think as well. And I think that'll help with the issues that we spoke around identity and things like that just remembering who you are for half an hour if it's in the bath and just everything else and just to be you and with your thoughts and, and not this person with the symptoms or what society thinking about and hopefully those things will get better, the more conversations we have. Thank you for sharing those tips. I know my top tip will be for anyone that's looking to learn more about this, get this book and get it read. And certainly I think that's because you give so much information and that you give kindness with it as well with the book and some hope as well that actually it doesn't have to be the big bad, scary thing that we all think it has to be at the moment and I think that's really important gift that you give people with that. So talking of all that where can people learn more? Where can we find you online or on socials? Where can people connect if they want to learn more?

Jacqueline Golding: 44:51

So we have the one a copy of the book, we've got a website, mental diaries.co.uk We do a blog. So if people so Subscribe, we send out regular blogs for tips and just kind of joining the sisterhood. We're on all social media platforms, Instagram, tik, Tok, Facebook, all on demand diaries.

Anne Okafor: 45:12

Awesome. Well, we will include those links and links to buy the book as well in the show notes for this episode, so that you can connect directly with Jacqueline and the team at mental dailies. And learn more about this start your journey about learning and you know, just understanding what things may look like, and how we can contribute to conversations, whether you are a young woman and looking to learn more for future or to be part of these conversations to understand, or whether you're someone who's actually going through some of the stages of menopause, looking for support, let's say the sisterhood, feeling and the community that you've felt is really important to this. And I truly believe that. I will also be writing a blog about this my experiences and the conversations that I've had with Jacqueline, and my thoughts and feelings around the book a little bit more, you'll have noticed in this episode, I've probably talked a little bit more than usual, usually the guest pick a lot more. But the reason for that being in this episode is that I want you to learn from Jacqueline in the book, you really get a feel of getting to know her through the book. And I certainly feel like I really know, Jacqueline from reading the book. And I want you to experience that. So that's the reason for that. And like say the blog will accompany this. And we will post the link for that in the show notes. Also alongside this so you can get a deeper understanding of where I'm coming from, and where I can think that we can also help with this conversation and get it started. Jacqueline, thank you so much. It's a pleasure, you know, just for your time, the educational lessons for the book itself, for being new and inspiring this conversation, you know, and for the many people that you'll help with this project. You know, truly remarkable. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

Jacqueline Golding: 46:57

It's a pleasure. Absolutely pleasure. Thank you for having me here. And I'm really really pleased that you've had such a good experience with the book.

Anne Okafor: 47:06

You're very welcome. So listeners if you are bouncing back from a challenge or stalling forward, this is Terminator Collective is here for you. Still remarkable to terminators.

Unknown: 47:17

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss when new episodes are posted. He will continue to deliver real life insights on overcoming challenges, practical tips and advice on becoming unstuck with a collective of people just like you are everyday the Terminator. Until next time, take care of yourselves and your friends. Thanks for listening to terminators