Life is Yours to write with Abi Yardimci

#025 

(TW: Postnatal Depression is discussed within this episode)

Our guest today is Abigail Yardimci, an author, blogger artist and creative mindfulness coach based in Devon in the UK. She is a northern lass, originally from County Durham and also a mum of two boys. Her books the 'Life is yours' trilogy follows the adventures of her character Jess, who goes from heartbreak to heart awake. I've known Abi for maybe about 12 years, since working with her husband many years ago.

We discussed:

• Becoming a parent 
• Multicultural partnership
• Postnatal depression
• Writing the 'Life is Yours' trilogy
• Blogging as an expression of life
• Abi's Blog 'Mum in the Moment'
• Mindfulness for the Everyday
• Self publishing
• Appreciating everyday happiness 
• Going on a Bear Hunt
• Creativity as a means of expression
• Perinatal mental health and wellbeing (Bluebell Care and Hearts and Minds Partnership)
• Abi's upcoming book 'My Little Ramadan'
• The importance of Values

Connect with Abi:

Website: Author | Abigail Yardimci | Devon

Bluebell Care: Bluebell: Supporting parents’ mental health and wellbeing (bluebellcare.org)

Hearts and Minds Partnership: Hearts and Minds (heartsandmindspartnership.org)

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Website: Podcast – Construction Cheer Leader (anneokafor.co.uk)

Blog: Anne Okafor – Medium

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Twitter: @DeterminatorPod

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Welcome to the everyday determinator podcast with your host Anne Okafor founder of the determining or collective, we want to help you get off that hamster wheel of life and turn you into an everyday the Terminator by shooting stories for Americans who have overcome varying challenges in life on careers and by reviewing and signposting you to help or resources to start you on the journey to achieving your goals. For more information on the Terminator collective, please visit www.un okafor.co.uk Thanks for listening determinator

Anne Okafor: 0:50

Hello terminators, and welcome to the everyday determinator podcast. Our guest today is Abigail Dunja, an author, blogger artists and creative mindfulness coach based in Devon in the UK. Although she is originally a northern last, well, she is a northern last originally from County Durham is right sort of area I think. And you're also a mum of two little ones. Her books the life is yours trilogy follows the adventures of her character Jess, who goes from heartbreak to heart ache, and we'll hear some more about that as we go through today's episode. I've known Abby for maybe about 12 years. I was thinking about this earlier on, and that makes me feel a bit old. Must be about 12 years. And yeah, because I used to work the husband all that time ago, which Yeah, makes me feel a bit older. But it's great to have you here, Abby.

Unknown: 1:46

Thank you. And it's lovely to be here as well. No, I'm

Anne Okafor: 1:49

glad to be having this chat, you know, 12 years ago, that's that's incredible. I just can't believe it's that long, really. And I guess things were different for both of us back then, in many different ways. So much has changed in the 12 years as well. Obviously, I was working in hospitality, and now I'm in construction. And you you're a little boys were so small. And I think even maybe the youngest was just born around that time when we first

Unknown: 2:13

met. You didn't have him yet. No.

Anne Okafor: 2:17

So I see pictures. I'm like, Oh, my God, I feel toward the end of it. Yeah. So life has changed for both of us. And, you know, it's obviously good. You've come through and went into education consultancy, and no writing, although I do believe writing can start your journey as well. And it's kind of come full circle. Really, I guess. So. Tell us a little bit about that journey that you've been on over the last week. Well, over the

Unknown: 2:41

last 12 years since I've seen you like your time isn't? Yeah, I mean, yeah, when I met you, obviously, I had my oldest son and he was just a baby, I think. So it feels like so much has happened since then. And a lot of people who are listening will be able to identify with the fact that when you become a parent, everything changes. And it doesn't just change, like overnight, and suddenly you know how to do it. It is literally it takes months, maybe years to get used to being responsible for another human being. It's, yeah, it's quite something so and I wasn't really prepared for that. So I think when I first met you, I was kind of kidding myself that I was alright, but actually, I wasn't alright. I don't know if you know, but at that time, I was quite down and depressed. And like, we're all starting to come to understand now because mental health is becoming less stigmatised. And we understand it a bit better. Just probably nobody would have known that about me because it was a very internal thing. And yeah, I struggled quite a lot with becoming a mum, I had had a lot of big changes in my life. As you know, my husband has Turkish I think you helped him learn quite a few key Scottish words still knows them now. But yeah, we went through a lot of life changes me and him because having a multicultural partnership is a challenge. We lived in Turkey for a while, I had my first son in Turkey and that was a massive challenge. It wasn't the lying about on the beach, that I imagined it would be you know, language barriers, cultural barriers, all that kind of thing. And then where did I bring him the Highlands of Scotland so that was a massive thing for him a huge leap, a huge change. So we both had so much going on in our lives when our first baby came along. So I think yeah, I just really struggled emotionally and it took me quite a while to realise that but when I did finally realise with the help of a doctor, I got access to some some very tailored counselling around postnatal depression which was so so helpful and a lifesaver really, to be honest. It helped me kind of look into myself and look at what was actually happening and that it was okay and to be a bit kinder, more compassionate to myself and not expect to have everything down to a fine art straightaway. Being a mum is really hard. It's really hard. So I think that was the start of me getting back in touch with me self again, once I got that counselling. And I picked up a project that I'd already started before I had my baby, which was the latest years trilogy. I'd already started writing it before he came along. Not long after I met my husband, I started writing it. And the idea of the trilogy was to write three stories that were very closely connected in time and all took place over the period of one year. And that year was based on a year of my life, which actually was in 2006. So we are going way back now. And it was a year that at the start of the year, I was engaged to be married. I've been with this guy for seven years, and I ran a business with him, we bought a house together, we had a dog, we thought our life was like mapped out. And he just walked out one day. And you know, we've all been through heartbreak. We all know, it's awful. And what happened that year, though, for me was yes, the heartbreak was awful. And it was incredibly, just challenging and horrible. And I didn't know how I was going to get over it. But it turned out eventually that year to be an incredibly tumultuous year that there were some really big highs and some really deep lows. So I decided to write about that year, and it became the latest yours trilogy. And that started up before I had my baby. And then it kind of just went out the window, because of life stuff. And I kind of forgot about wedding, forget about it. But I just, I just got overtaken by the emotion of becoming a mum. And when I had the counsellor and that's when I thought you know what I've got to get back onto this project because it means so much to me. And I'm not going to say that I suddenly wrote the whole thing because it didn't, it actually took me 10 years, which I think is probably one of the reasons you've asked me to talk today. Because talk about determination, if you can come up with one for 10 years, then that's, you know, that's how things get done eventually. So over the process of 10 years, I managed to write all three books, and then it took another few years to get them published. But that's kind of the journey really all started, when I met my husband, not just because of him, I don't want to give him all the credit, all year of 2006 was up and down. But me and him was kind of a key point, you know, then going through the hardship of postnatal depression, and being lucky enough to access counselling really helped me get back on board with what I wanted. And that's what I wanted was to write these books and get them out in the world.

Anne Okafor: 7:30

Amazing. I mean, it's just, you know, like, say, a testament to your determination that, you know, even taken 10 years, you know, many people would have given up on the fact that you've sort of persevered with it. And I think there was recognition with you that this was something you needed to do for you. You don't have to be helped, probably with part of the process. I don't know if that would be fair to say, in terms of, you know, the counselling process. And you know, you've come back to yourself, again, I guess, through that process, that writing the books was actually maybe part of that therapy, in some ways.

Unknown: 8:04

Definitely. I mean, people who've read the book, come back to me and say that it's actually helped them on loads of levels, which is not like the intention of the books, they are novels, at the end of the day, they're meant to just be a good story that you can really sit down and enjoy. But there's definitely some like therapeutic elements that go through all of the books that I think if you're a reader, you can choose to pick up on them or not. And that's not just in the counselling I had at the beginning of things when I first became a mom, but also some other kinds of therapies that I was able to access over the years and life experiences. Really, it all goes in, doesn't it?

Anne Okafor: 8:37

Absolutely. I think it's really good. And you know, I think the people who are reading those that are maybe having similar challenges will probably pick up on things, we tend to be quite in tune with things that you know, are similar to us. Things that we're going through, and I'm sure you know, people who have been through somewhere will find some sort of comfort within those pages. And I know a lot of what you do as well in terms of your writing, and you don't just do the books and you do lots of blogging, and stuff like that. And I think you've been doing that for a number of years, too. On all sorts of different topics. I think you talk about mindful parenting, and I guess that kind of goes back to your own experiences with postnatal depression and things like that, and, and how you sort of stabilised through that. Would that be fair to say? Or tell us more about that?

Unknown: 9:27

Yeah. So I would say that blogging, I mean, I'm not a blogger who makes a living from blogging. You know, there's blogging is a whole new industry now, isn't it? For me, it's more of like a release an expression and a way to share what's going on in my world. And definitely, when my kids were younger, I used to blog quite a lot about just the that sounds really cheesy but like the journey of parenting, but what I noticed was that online, there's an awful lot of blogs or influencers who are banging on about how amazing Parenting is, and there's a lot who are banging on about how hard it is and how gruesome it can be at times, which you can it is like, can go to both of those extremes. What I wanted to do was write honestly about the highs and the lows, and the middle base, because the middle base, to be honest, a lot of being a parent, especially when they're very, very young can be quite boring. And I know that sounds a bit off. But honestly, there was times when I just said, I'm so bored. Like just talking to toddlers all day. And those kinds of thoughts are really hard to admit to as a parent, because no one talks about that. So I want her to write about the highs and lows and everything in between. And yeah, I've been able to do that with the various blogs that I've had, the one that I have at the moment is actually on my website, and it's called mum in the moment. And the reason I called it mum in the moment is because, again, going back to this experience of postnatal depression, unfortunately, I did get it again with my second son, not quite as badly because this time I recognised the signs. And I could go and ask for help much more quickly and, you know, get some intervention quite early on, I was lucky enough, this time to go on a mindfulness course. And for me, mindfulness was something just, as soon as I did the first session, I just thought this is something that I can get on board with. It wasn't what I thought it was going to be, I thought it was going to be, you know, maybe a bit hippie ish, and it'd be just sticks burnin and people in baggy trousers, not that I've got anything against that, because I have quite few pairs of those heavy trousers. But that's what I thought mindfulness would be like, really heavy ish. But actually, what I found was that it was an incredibly practical thing that you could learn to adapt into your life, that there was real science behind it. And that with practice, it's something that can really change the way that you can be in the world. And that just really appealed to me. And yes, it was hard with a baby and a toddler, because that's when I first discovered it, I had a baby and a three year old, but I found quite creative. As you probably know, I think creativity is one of those things that seeps into every part of part of your life. It's not just about being able to draw or paint or write or dance. It's about every aspect of life. And as I start to find creative ways to get mindfulness in, even though my time was limited, and energy was limited. And over the years, I was just able to turn around the way I was in the world from mindfulness from using that regularly. And yes, that is something that I blogged about written about, because I think it's really helpful. I mean, it doesn't appeal to everybody, mindfulness. But I've had a lot of moms talk to me about the blog and dads to about how certain parts of it that I Oh, I didn't know that was mindfulness. So like, I don't know, for example, when you're sat on the carpet with your child, and you're exhausted, and you're waiting for bedtime, and they're, I don't know, playing with blocks or something. But there is just a moment where you really know is, I don't know the colour of their eyes, or you really notice how warm their body is against yours, or the pace that they're breathing or something that's just very in the moment. And for me, it was those little snatches of mindfulness that helped me become a better parent, and just a happier person in general. So I quite like writing about that kind of thing, because that's something that I think most parents, and anyone else who's not a parent, actually, you know, it doesn't have to be about parenting that anyone can access, because it's not about always being able to go and sit on a mountainside cross legged, you know, meditate, and we haven't got time for that. In the moment you already got,

Anne Okafor: 13:46

yeah, no, absolutely. To pick up on that. Thank you. A lot of busy parents, but you know, the world is busier all the time, you know, we've all got this or that the next thing that we're trying to do, and I think a lot of us get sort of stuck in that way of just letting that go by us. You know, I think there was a quote from like, I don't know if you remember the film Ferris Bueller's Day Out, it was like, take a moment and stop. Otherwise, it'll pass you by sort of thing. And I think we can all do with just ticking, you know, ticking a day or taking a moment, even like you said, just those little moments just to appreciate those wonderful things that are happening around us all the time. You know, when you see your child's eyes, or, you know, their body temperature, or you know, if you're not a parent, just be instilled with yourself. Sometimes you come home from a busy day and just, you know, the fact that I do it myself and again, very similar to you, I thought it was going to be all happy and not for me. I didn't think it was going to be something that I think I was at that stage where I would try anything. I was just like, so like stressed out with things at certain times. And I thought, well, you know, I'm going to try something else. And I would encourage people to try it and see because I think you know, there's a lot to it and there's a lot of different ways So we can be mindful, like you said, that we can practically do, it's not all about sitting for half an hour meditating with your eyes closed and, or, you know, doing yoga poses at 5am, or whatever, it's not all about that, that if that works for you, that's the way to do it and great, but if it's not that, I always think mindfulness can be even just things like setting boundaries in your life. And, you know, knowing what really makes you happy and sort of going after, you know, perseverance write a book, over 10 years, you know, that sort of thing. I think, you know, having that sort of presence, and knowing what you want and knowing what makes you happy. And going after it can be mindfulness in a lot of ways as well, you know,

Unknown: 15:43

you're right, I think what really helps the mindfulness practices, once you Scott, start getting used to putting them in your life, whether it's half an hour, or whether it's 10 minutes or two minutes. Once they're regular, then they feed into all of those things that you've just said, you start to become much more mindful of your actions, more mindful of your decisions, you know, how you're going ahead with life. And you make better choices for you, I think. And I think that's probably partly why I did keep going over 10 years, because it wasn't just a constant 10 years, right. And otherwise, I'd have like, hundreds of 1000s of words of work. It was so many months at a time where I did nothing, because life was just too busy and just wasn't any space and time I used to live in a tiny bungalow with the two babies. And that just wasn't the chance. But then every now and then, I come back to new values because of my mindfulness. And I'd be like, right? No, this is important. How can you make it happen? How can you get one day or one hour even to do some writing? I remember once I went off on like a little retreat, it was like a self made retreat. So I had like a friend of the family who had a little holiday house on the borders of Scotland. And she said I could have it for 40 quid for a weekend I was like, right, that's it going. My husband can have the kids whether he likes it or not. And I am going and it was that kind of thing, like every now and then just picking it back up. Because the mindfulness kept me bringing me back to like new still need to do this, Abby, this is like something it's so important for you and like I might be meditating and like, the life is yours trilogy would come into my head, just gone. Don't forget me. And I couldn't forget it had to keep going.

Anne Okafor: 17:18

And I must feel amazing, though, that you've got it done. It's Oh, it's you know, people are reading it, people are loving it. How does that feel know that you've sort of made that commitment to yourself, and actually seen it to fruition? How does that feel?

Unknown: 17:33

It feels great. It's been a really interesting ride, because it wasn't a matter of just getting published and that it job done. I think, you know, I think we've spoken before about the fact that I was traditionally published, when I first started getting the books out there, I was absolutely over the moon, I've got a publishing deal with a small publisher. And that was like my dream come true. And I went ahead, and I think I published the first two books with them. Both, I quickly learned that it's not everything that you imagine it will be. And I'm hearing this a lot now from a lot of other authors that I know, obviously, in a world of traditional publishing, there's a lot of limitations. You're not in control. I'm quite a creative person. And also, I'm quite a controlling person, if I'm totally honest. And I didn't like not being able to make certain decisions, which are the publishers responsibility. And then COVID happened. And obviously that changed the world in so many ways. But it did change the publishing world as well. And I found that I just could not get what I wanted from my publishing deal. And luckily, I was able to get the rights back. So it's been a bit of an up and down path. I thought I was on this upward trajectory of getting published. Like that was my dream. But then it didn't work out. So I got the rights back early last year. And last year was so much hard work for me, I can't even tell you like we talked about the 10 years being determined. But if you put all that and gather it into one year, that was last year for me, because I got the rights back, I rewrote all three books because I wanted them to be the absolute best they possibly could be. And I'd learned a lot about storytelling since they'd been published originally. And I got new covers designed and I learned how to format books myself, and I put them on sale. So I'm now self published, which some people might see as a backward step. For me it is not it is a forwards leap. Because now I know exactly what's happening with my books all the time. I've got control of how they're put in the world. Market them we sell a lot of work, I'm not going to lie, it is a lot of work, but it's work that I want to do. And I feel so passionate about it. So yes, I feel amazing about it and but it has been an interesting op Downey kind of path to get

Anne Okafor: 19:45

there. And I think you know, that was been such a personal story as well. You know, you want to have that connection to it's not just the kisser. Writing it and then putting it out there and letting it go. It's you want to still be connected to it and to have it as part of your life. Even though it's more work, like it's work that you want to do. And I think when we find things that, you know, make us happy, even if it's work, you know what it feels purposeful, and you want to do that. And again, I think going back to mindfulness, you make those choices, because you're much more in tuned with what you actually want them what's going to serve you.

Unknown: 20:20

Definitely, yeah, I think it's about your values. I think, quite often in life, we don't question what our values are, we don't think of what's actually important to me, what would I actually not part with if somebody tries to take it off me? So for me, it's like, it's my health. It's my creativity. It's my capacity to love like all these. And I think we don't ask ourselves that I think it's really important because surely that's how we need to rule out our life as in in terms of our values and our beliefs. So yeah, I just feel like mindfulness really helped me keep on board with who I am. We all get lost sometimes don't weigh in. It's natural. It's part of being human.

Anne Okafor: 20:58

No, definitely. And I think, you know, I did a thing a few years ago, I've mentioned that before, where it was 100 Happy Days, because I was lost. And I didn't really know what direction I was going in. I just felt like, this was it, you know, and I was kind of frustrated by that, but didn't really know what to do about it. And someone had said to me, oh, we'll do this 100 Happy Days Challenge. And I was like, again, that was kind of like, that's not out there a bit. Yeah, la la. And I was, and I was like, but you know what, I'm actually that frustrated with how things are, I'm just going to try it. But it was to take pictures of something that made you happy, everything that was going back to that that small things that you were sending all those senior kids eyes, and one of the you know, just the notice in the body temperature. And some days, it was really really difficult to find something you'd had a such a rubbish day, but rather than just going oh, well, today's rubbish, and being in that moment, you have to look for something, take a photograph of it, and then put it on your social media and describe like, this is what made me happy today. And some days it was easy, you know, some days it was going out for lunch with a friend or, you know, watching a movie you really enjoyed argued, although I think one day I got a promotion so easy, you know. But there were some days when the best thing that happened to me was taking my shoes off at the end of the night. Oh, lovely feeling. No, and it is a lovely feeling. But I never used to appreciate that before.

Unknown: 22:13

Those little things that usually take for granted can be like, a really important thing in the day.

Anne Okafor: 22:19

Absolutely. And I'm much more happier now, in my life, because I recognise those things. You know, when I'm having, you know, a rubbish day, or the busiest day, I stopped for a moment, and I appreciate something. And although it's rubbish, you know, we'd be stuck in meetings all day, I'm busy and my feet are killing me. I can appreciate that five minutes when I go home and just sit for five minutes, mindfully. And so you know, actually, it's not too bad. You know?

Unknown: 22:46

The difference? Yeah, actually, I don't know if people are gonna watch this video. But there's, there's the book at the first one. And then life is yours gestures that the main character, she goes on a business course. And as part of the business courses, a little bit of personal development. And that's one of the things she gets challenged to do is not the social media bit with his photos, which I think is brilliant. I've done that before myself. It's a great, great project to do. But she just writes them down like everyday, and three things that have been positive or made us smile, which she finds really challenging, because she's just had our heart ripped out. And she's devastated and doesn't know how life is going to continue without this fiance of hers. But yeah, gradually, she starts to realise that even on the worst days, there's always something that she can feel grateful for, even if it's something small, like you say, taking your shoes off and wiggling your feet, your toes at the end of the day, or getting into bed clean sheets or something small.

Anne Okafor: 23:38

I actually think you know, when the hardest times of our life is actually when we need those things, you know, like, and when you start looking for those things, you see them everywhere, you know, and that makes you happier, just generally your your baseline goes up really because you're just happier.

Unknown: 23:54

Well, there's science behind it. It's ultra practice. It's like what I was saying about mindfulness. People think it's like this hippie dippie thing. But actually, there's been so many studies, really robust scientific studies to show that the more you practice it, the more you you strengthen those neural pathways in the brain, and you're able to be more mindful, be more positive reframe thoughts. It's the same with gratitude practice. I mean, I get laughed at all the time, because I'll be on the school run or something. And there'll be like a ray of sunshine, and I'll just stand in it for a bit and just stand still on the pavement and people walk past me or as happy with their hippie crap again. I'm like, No, it's science. It really works.

Anne Okafor: 24:35

Absolutely. I think that's, you know, you make that decision to do that because it feels good for you in that moment. And I think that that's perfectly okay to do and, you know, it makes us happier. Again, don't get us

Unknown: 24:45

wrong as far as what I will not want to do that because when we are sad, we do have to tune into that sadness and we can't just like paper over it with positive things. I think there are times when you do have to bask in sadness in order to move through it and that is mindful as well. So

Anne Okafor: 25:00

it No, I agree, I think when you when you're in sadness or anger, even, you know, what's negative emotion, recognising that and you know, is important to is mindful, I think, you know, we are quite often sometimes allow these things to overcome us, you know, we get sad and we we let our reactions and think sometimes actually being mindful helps you to helps you on that negative emotion side as well because, you know, rather than maybe letting a reaction carry you away, you're able to maybe understand why something made you sad, why it made you angry, you know, you can notice those things, when you're, when you're in tune with that mindfulness on the happy side, it also helps on the other side where you can recognise, and actually it's, you know, it's perfectly normal to be sad and angry, and, you know, frustrated and upset at some points, you know, everybody is, and it's perfectly normal for all of us to be

Unknown: 25:56

necessary. You know, we wouldn't feel as happy as we did in the happy moments without those, those lows, and it's just part of being human. And it's part of helping us learn about ourselves, and we have to do it, we have to go through all of it. It's like that. I don't know if you know of that children's book. We're going on a bear hunt. But yeah, thanks. By going on a bear hunt, we're going to catch a big one. What a beautiful day, we're not scared. And then the family has to go through all these different obstacles. So one of them is like, oh, no, this grass is too long to get through what we're gonna do, we can't go over it. We can't go under it. We're gonna have to go through it. And each one's different, like mud and snow. And I just one day I had this eureka moment. I was like, Oh, my God, we're going on a bear hunt is about mindfulness probably isn't. But for me, I was like, it's mindfulness. We've got to go through it. And then make it fun. So like on the grassy field, they go swishy, swashy swishy, especially actually, and they have a nice time going through the grass. And yeah, it just made me think basically, that's a metaphor for mindfulness. That whole story.

Anne Okafor: 26:57

Yeah, no, I love that. I hadn't thought of it in that way. But it is actually very much like, like going through life. You know, we come up against obstacles, like, you know, the grass, the snow, but we have our own things in life that can stop us in our tracks, and

Unknown: 27:10

we can't go under it, even though we might try it. Yeah.

Anne Okafor: 27:16

I think one of the rock songs always comes back to me, it's like, if you're going through hell just keep going through hell yes. You get through, and you get to the other side, you know, and if you're going through a really rough patch, and we all have it, you know, we all we've all been there. And it's okay to talk about, it's okay to seek out but professionally or otherwise, if that's what's right for you at that time, you know, it's okay to seek help from friends or family. Talk about it, you know, that's probably one of the best things you can do in the first instance is to, to talk and to get some help, and that that should be more normal than what it is. And I think, certainly you were talking about your experiences 12 years ago, I mean, back then it was a lot different than what it is today, in terms of, you know, visibility of the sort of topics people talking openly about, it was probably, you know, wouldn't say maybe unheard off. But it was a lot less visible than what it is today.

Unknown: 28:12

In some way, we just need the services to catch up with the actual awareness. But it's getting there.

Anne Okafor: 28:18

Yeah, it's definitely moving in the right direction. Still lots of work to be done. But that's the case with everything, but we're going in the right direction, which I think is positive. So we mentioned talking about something that you would talk talking about your creativity and things like that. And you also do some artwork as well. You know, you do that different sort of mediums, I think but you know, we talked about all sorts of different creativities of your personality, but in painting, something that you do as well. And artistry. I think you've done that for quite a while as well. Yeah,

Unknown: 28:50

I mean, if you if you go way back, like I've been doing that since I was a kid for a long time. So after I left university, I set up a business called busy eight Arts, which always tripped people up because it was a weird name, but it was an art education, community arts type of situation. And I did that for about 10 years. And it was basically because I just loved being creative, and I loved helping other people. So put the two things together, used to go and work in various schools and youth groups and all sorts of different organisations and use creativity as a medium for wellbeing for confidence, self esteem, social skills, those kinds of things, and I loved it but it absolutely took over my life. And it wasn't until actually that the heartbreak that this because based on and he left and everything that I realised that what I really loved was creativity and I did love helping people but I didn't need to kill myself any longer trying to do it, which is what I had been doing. So that's when I started writing again for myself, not for like a business or for anybody else but for me, and started painting again for myself. I've always loved painting. I like making things in general, but it's painting that I keep going back to. And what it took me a while to find like, what do I actually like to paint and, and quite a bit of confidence and time. But over the times I've realised that what I love is just really bright colours, or nice contrast of colours. Anyway, sometimes I use more muted palettes, but I love nice bald, rich contrast of colours and lots of texture. So I often use like, ripped up bedsheets and just glue them on. And like, I don't know, all sorts of things I have stuck on canvases, it's really good fun. And I like to create abstract images and what I really love. And I think this just comes from my interest in other people, and their stories and their interpretations. I love when I've finished a piece of work. And then people look at it and tell me what they see in it. And it might not be for everyone. And some people might be like, Well, my three year old could do that. And that's fine. But a lot of people are like, well, I can see a mountain and someone else say oh, no, no, no, I can see your face. And I just like the way people bring things something, bring things to it and sometimes have memories. Or they may say that reminds me of a dream I once had and then it creates more stories and more conversations. And I just, I think art's got an incredible capacity to share humanity and to inspire and uplift and just create connection really. And I'm really interested in connections and stories. So it just it was really lovely that I was able to come to that realisation of Annie to be creative and to be creative for myself. And I need to bring into it. People and stories. Yeah, so since then, which was going back to 2006. I've tried to do more and more of that. It's not always been easy. Like I say, becoming a mum. And going through lots of things like grief, I've been through miscarriage have moved and lived in three different countries have been absolutely skint at times, like all the same kinds of challenges that anyone else might face. But it's just goes back to that thing of like, Why do I want to do this? What's important to me. And also, it's about like, anyone listening will know that when they're in an activity that speaks to them, whatever it might be, whether it's creative, or something completely different. You just feel more like yourself. It's like when I'm painting a feel calm. And I feel just like this is where I'm meant to be in this moment. Concept always feel like that with writing, because writing is really hard. And it's like a maths problem sometimes trying to get the right combination of words, but when it's glowing, it's amazing. It does make me feel like that. So, yeah, I've just been lucky enough to realise that that's what I had to do. And it's what I've always wanted to do. And I think that when I was little and knew that and I think we all know when we're little what we love doing. And we're not we don't have the same inhibition and fear around the thing, or is when we get older, we get old, you know, you have to, you have to get a mortgage, you have to earn a good salary, you have to settle down, blah, blah, blah. It's getting a bit less like that now, but I still think there's some pressure of like being successful, whatever that means. And I think I just realised after that heartbreak after that, that particular person walked out of my life. It shook me up so much, though, it made me think, no, I have to think about what I want. And it hasn't gone away. Like since I've done that work on myself, it stayed with it. So I'm really grateful for

Anne Okafor: 33:34

that. That's, you know, really great. Yeah, I think one of the things that I was thinking, as you were talking there, we've talked about the during the painting and things and the storytelling aspect. It is almost like you know, all the little parts of your life and your story go into these canvases. And I guess we all can do that in our own different way, you know, the things that we do, the connections that we make is all stories, and storytelling and connection, and that comes through, and maybe more so with you being an author and being in that creative space. I often don't think of myself as a very creative person. But then some of the things I do, other people say, are quite a creative thing. So I think, you know, sometimes we make these canvases, whether it be physical canvases, or whether it's an other things that we do, you know, with the groups that we make, or the networks that we make, you know, we're bringing parts of ourselves and other people in, and like you say when you were doing the analysis and asking people what they took from it and bringing their thoughts around that, and telling stories. And I think the other thing you mentioned was about being a child. When we're children. We do stories all the time. You know, we were told stories from you know, literally from when we were born or sometimes even before people have read stories, you know, in pregnancy and things and then we just kind of stop you know when we sad isn't it? We kind of get into this like you say you've got to be success. So you've got to get the house, the wife or the husband, the partner, the car, the house, the kids, you know, and that's your shopping list, you're gonna get a job, you know, and that's not for everybody, you know. And I think it's great now that we are having these conversations about what success looks like for different people and the journeys that we've took, because there's a lot of pressure to go that your traditional route, you know, go to school, go to uni, get a job, get hose, get a partner, you know, all these sorts of things, get married, get have kids, or there's still quite a lot of pressure, like you said, although we are having a conversation more and actually people are are refuting that and saying, that isn't what I want. And I think that's a great thing, that we're able to have these conversations, and people are able to be more creative and be themselves and not have to sort of put a corporate mask on every day, and go do jobs that don't make them happy in clothes that don't make them happy. You know, in talking languages that don't make them happy. You know, we're able to create our own stories, and live with them and be who we want to be as our main character, I guess.

Unknown: 36:06

I think it's incredibly important. And we're lucky now because there are more kind of icons around us, more public figures who don't have that kind of traditional, make those traditional choices for their life. So there's more, I think that's really important representation. And what because, you know, I grew up watching certain movies and reading certain magazines, and that was always what was kind of preached was this type of life that we're all aiming for. Now, there's a lot more variety, and it is much better. And I think probably hopefully, my kids will grow up and have more choice and feel more confident about the choices that they make. I hope that's the way it goes anyway. Yeah.

Anne Okafor: 36:41

No, I hope so too. And I'm sure that will be relaxing. I think we're certainly moving in the right direction. I just wanted to quickly touch upon and we spoke about in the beginning of your journey about postnatal depression and having that, that conversations around that I know you're now working with our partnership, it's okay to talk about that. And yeah, your job that you're just to tell us because, again, I almost feel like you've come full circle with this. You're gonna be maybe helping other people who are in some, I think it's perinatal mental health. So it's, you know, I think I'm not 100% sure of the terminology. So maybe you can tell us what that means. And you're gonna be done.

Unknown: 37:20

Yeah, so um, perinatal basically means around the birth. So Perry means around, and NATO means birth. So it can be during pregnancy, or, you know, one to two years after you've had a baby. So for the last four years, actually, I have been working for a charity in the southwest called Bluebell care. And I've been working as a peer support, buddy. So what that means is, I get to get connected with mums who might be struggling with their mental health, around the time of having a baby. And because I have experienced postnatal depression, myself, it means that I can work with them. Well, I say work with them. It is work and it is professional, but I'm called a booty. So basically, it means that I am their friend, I've got their back and I am there to listen to them to maybe sometimes signpost them to services that might be able to help and just to be like a non judgmental person in their life who can really listen to how they're feeling, and empathise. Because obviously, I've been through something similar myself. And it's a wonderful job. I really love it. It's very challenging. But it's very rewarding as often these jobs are. And we run a course for moms as well, where they get to come along for like every week, they get the space on a crash. And they get two hours on their own without their baby, which can be quite a difficult thing to get used to. But eventually they do get used to it and enjoy it and have a hot cup of tea and a chat with some other moms who are going through something very similar. And that's spread out across the Southwest now bluebells getting bigger and bigger. And actually, it's very similar to the service that I accessed up in the Highlands of Scotland when I wasn't well. So you're right about coming full circle. I feel like when I went for that job four years ago, I remember thinking this feels meant to be because I've come through all of this and us and actually had more or less written the labours, yours trilogy by then as well. So I felt like I'd got that out of the way. And I was lucky enough to get this job. So that's what I've been doing over the last few years as well as my writing. But now I'm also working for a partnership which Bluebell is part of called the hearts and minds partnership which is an England wide collective of perinatal mental health, grassroots organisations, so in the voluntary sector and community sector, and we kind of bring them together, we connect them. We support them with all sorts of different things and we celebrate the work that they're doing. And most importantly, we try and help families find them. So if you're struggling and you're your mum or a dad, you can go on to this virtual map that we have online, type in your area and find out what services are around to help you. So like you were saying earlier about mental health, stigma being broken and awareness being raised, and it's getting better all the time, this is just another step in the right direction just to make sure people can access the really high quality services that are around. Because, you know, I don't know what I would have done without the intervention that I had, I think I could have been really, really a lot more poorly than I was. And like you say, it's really important to get help, if you feel that's right for you. And I'm just proud that I'm able to be a part of that be a small part of that. No, I

Anne Okafor: 40:29

really, you know, so it's a really great thing to do, and to help other people who have been where you are. And I think, you know, we'll obviously we're gonna we'll share the link for hearts and minds in the show notes so that if anyone is listening to this, and feels like they need some help, if they're based in England, then they can be signposted to that service. Because I think, you know, I'm keen to talk about these topics. I know, it's difficult topics, sometimes that we talk about in everyday determinator. But that important, and it's important to signpost, people to places for help, if that's what's right for them at the time, if they're looking to get some help. So thank you for sharing that with us. And I'm sure it'll be really helpful for some of our listeners or further down the line. So what's next for you in terms of obviously, you're doing this work with hearts and minds, and presumably still being very creative in many different ways. But what's next for Abby?

Unknown: 41:21

Well, as you say, carried on with all the perinatal work so with hearts and minds and Bluebell continue to do that, for as long as they'll have me really. And in terms of writing, I have got another book out this year. I can't give you a date yet, because I'm not that organised. But it's going to be called my little Ramadan. And actually, interestingly enough, as you know, the first three books that are based on my experience, or so is this one. So this is based on a year, sorry, not a year, I'm used to seeing that with the other books. It's based on a month of my life, where my husband who was Muslim, when we were living in the Highlands of Scotland, and we first got to know you. It was his first year in the UK. And the month of Ramadan was coming up the holy month of Ramadan, where Muslims fast from sunrise to sundown. And it was coming up. And we were sat in the kitchen one night, and he said he was going to do it. And I was like, okay, yeah, fair enough. Because like, that's what he does every year. But some unknown force moved me to say, Would you like me to do with you still don't know why I said that. But I did. And bless them. His face just lit up when I said that. And I think it just really meant such a lot to him, because he was in a very cold, very foreign country for him, didn't know anybody. And I think the support just really meant a lot. So I spent a month fasting with my husband, even though I'm not Muslim, just to kind of show him some solidarity and some support. But it was a really interesting month. And I blogged about it every day. I don't know if you remember, but

Anne Okafor: 42:56

I remember. And I honestly, I remember working with your husband at the time, and just in awe, because that was my first experience of someone who was Muslim, going through Ramadan, and making that commitment to themselves for their religious reasons, and just in awe of it all. And just knowing that, you know, I would probably never be able to do that. And he's such a hard worker as well, trying to do that and balance that with, you know, young children. Just, you know, it's incredible. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing more about that.

Unknown: 43:31

Yes, I'm hoping that that's going to Well, I've written it already. It just needs revisions, and then a publication date, but it will be out my little Ramadan will be out this year. Excellent. Well, plenty to keep me busy, to be honest.

Anne Okafor: 43:44

No, I mean, I love that. And I know how positive you are with Ramadan and other festivals in the Muslim religion, because you're not your boys are learning as well as they grew up. And you know, you've done a lot of work around that as well, in terms of, I guess, education. I've learned a lot from you guys, in terms of what you do through Ramadan. And you know, I'm grateful for that learning experiences as well

Unknown: 44:09

personally, and isn't it it really is fascinating, and I learned loads that month, I learned so much about Islam, I still got a lot to learn, but But yeah, it's really eye opening, just seeing what moves people to go to such extreme measures for their for their beliefs. It's incredible.

Anne Okafor: 44:24

No, absolutely. I can't agree with you more. So I'm looking forward to reading that when it comes about. And please do keep us posted on that. Just to sum up, then, what was your three tips would you give someone who is facing a challenge? You know, we've covered lots of different topics tonight. You know, if someone's up against the challenge, and they're, you know, feeling that little bit stuck, what would you say to them?

Unknown: 44:50

So had a little think about this. And I think, first of all, I think I've touched on this a few times is if you feel mentally up to it To go to ask yourself what you value in life, going back to your values, that was one of the most life changing things that I was asked to do. And I still keep doing it every now and then because values can change over time. But just to get a pen and a bit of paper, and write down, I don't know, eight values, or four values, whatever feels more possible, and just reminding yourself why these things are important to you. And I really feel like that will help you come back to who you are, and help you even know what to do next. I don't want to go into it too much, because I know you're looking for three succinct tips. But I think, like ask yourself, What are your values and if you're worried about what a value is, it's something that you would that you would not part with somebody tried to take it off you that's how I think of it, I don't know if that helps people listening value is something that you would kind of hold on tight, and you're gonna know that that's mine, that's important to me. So I'd write down, maybe it's four to eight values. And there's lots you can do from there. But I think that's the first step, work out what your values are.

Anne Okafor: 46:01

Excellent, I think you know, you've got a good point, when you say it will help make decisions as well, because it does, when you know what's really important, it does almost kind of put you in a place where it's limit limits you to things that are important to you. So then you've got more focused direction from moving forward, which I think's really positive, if you're feeling overwhelmed. And what's the times when we are in that moment of stuckness. We just feel like what am I going to do? You know, and I think if you've got a sort of framework for yourself, I guess, with these four, eight, or however many values you have, it can help sort of understand purpose and give you some sort of focus and direction.

Unknown: 46:39

And also help you realise which things in your life you're wasting your time on as well and help you make breaks and more easily. Like I once worked with somebody who we sat down and did their values. And they were in this relationship that had been going on for quite a long time. And they they noted all these different things, but they didn't put relationship. And I didn't coax it out with them. Because obviously it wasn't my job to do that. But I remember thing. And it wasn't long after that, that the relationship ended, actually. But it was just really interesting that she didn't quit relationship. And she'd been with this guy for such a long time. And they've spent every single day together and had a house together. And so it was like, I was thinking that you're not going to put relationship down there. And she didn't and not long after that it was done with and that was a positive thing for her. Like, that's just one example. It could be something else. But yeah, I think you're right, it really does help you. If you're feeling overwhelmed, just come back into like the crux of it, the core of it. What is important to me,

Anne Okafor: 47:32

though, definitely, I think that's really good advice. So we've talked about lots of brilliant things that you're doing and your books, where can our listeners find RB online if they would like to know more about your books or your creativity, or any of these great things we spoke about today.

Unknown: 47:47

So everything is on my website. Now I know I have a really dodgy surname. It's not easy to type the website in. Abigail Yeah, dunja.com. And your gender is spelled y a RDIM. Ci. If that doesn't work, because it is a dodgy surname, all my books are on Amazon. And you can obviously find out about me from there. So life is yours. If you just take life as yours into Amazon, you would find it. But what I will say and if you don't mind is that if people do go to my website, at the minute I've got this offer on so if somebody wants to sign up to my readers list, which means you just basically get all my book news. It's not a spammy list, it's, you know, a decent list. You don't get spammed all the time, just once or twice a month, really, you get a free copy of life as yours on your Kindle. So if anyone wants to have a go at reading, Labor's yours thinks they might like it, you can get it for free when you sign up to my readers list, which is on Abigail adams.com. So I'm really proud to be able to offer it for free. It's made me happy to be able to do that.

Anne Okafor: 48:47

Well, that's really kind and what we will do is we will add the link to Abby's website in the show notes for this. So you can go underneath where we press play to listen. And in the show notes, we will have a direct link to Bobby's website, but also the hearts and minds partnership as well so that you can be signposted there. If you're looking for some help with some of the topics we've talked about today. Abby, thank you so much for sharing with us today. You've shared heaps, I think we've got through loads a lot. It's a great catch up. You know, thank you very much for that. I really do appreciate it. You're remarkable. Thank you. Thank you and so listeners, whether you're bouncing back from a challenge or storm and forward to your next one, the determinator Collective is here for you. Stay remarkable the terminators.

Unknown: 49:38

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss when new episodes are posted. We will continue to deliver real life insights on overcoming challenges and advice on becoming unstuck with a collective of people just like you are every day the Terminator. Until next time, take care of you yourselves dear friends thanks for listening to terminators