Confronting Religion, Christian Nationalism and the Push for Women’s Submission

At VEST, we talk a lot about careers, money, and women’s economic mobility. But here’s the truth: you can’t fully talk about women building power without talking about the systems that taught us what we’re allowed to want—and what we should quietly accept.

For many of us, that system was religion.

In this episode of the VEST Podcast, Erika sits down with Reverend Lori Walke for an honest, grounded conversation about what happens when faith becomes complicated, especially for women who grew up inside religious institutions that preached love, but practiced control.

What we talk about in this episode

• How women learn “their place” and how to unlearn it
• Separating the message from the messengers
• Deconstruction without losing yourself
• Religious trauma is real and you have permission to leave
• When religion becomes a political weapon
• How women stay engaged without burning out
• Why this matters for women’s careers and economic mobility

Deconstructing harmful spiritual narratives isn’t a side quest. It’s part of building a life where women can earn, lead, rest, belong, and thrive, without shrinking.

For our guest full bio and show notes (including book recommendations) click here. 

At VEST, we’re not afraid to have these conversations because women are whole people. Not just workers. Not just caregivers. Not just resilience machines.

Transcript

Why Faith Still Matters For Women’s Power

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi, I'm Erica Lucas, your host for today. Today we're having a conversation we've been meaning to have for a long time. Because, yes, most days we're talking about careers, money, and women's economic mobility. But if we're serious about women building power, I mean like real power, then we also have to talk about the systems that shape what we believe we deserve, what we think we're allowed to want, and what we've been taught to tolerate. And for a lot of us, that system was religion. Maybe you grew up with a faith that once felt sacred. And now it's starting to feel complicated. Or maybe you still believe in something bigger, but you're trying to hold on to faith without losing yourself. Maybe you're carrying religious trauma, shame around your body, your ambition, sexuality, choices. Or maybe you're watching religion get weaponized, used to control people, divide our communities, and justify policies that are holding us back. And you're thinking, why are we tolerating this? In this episode, I'm joined by Reverend Lori Walk, someone I've admired from afar, because she's one of those rare leaders who can hold both truth and tenderness at the same time. We talk about what it looks like to separate the message from the messengers, how patriarchy has shaped religious institutions, and how deconstructing some of those messages can be a form of liberation. We also get really practical. How to trust your own knowing again, how to recognize when a community is harming you, and give yourself permission to leave, how to find spirituality and support without settling for the all are welcome bait and switch nonsense. And we go straight into the hard stuff too: Christian nationalism, the blur between church and state, and how to stay civically engaged without burning out. Because here's the truth: women are more than labor. We're more than titles, productivity, caregiving, and keeping everything together. And part of building that full life and building wealth, stability, and freedom, is unlearning some of the narratives that thought us to become smaller. For our guest full bio and show notes, go to www.vestor.co forward slash podcast. If you enjoy the episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career into the next level, apply to join our community of women eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vestor.co to learn more. Reverend Lori has given me permission to call her Lori. So I'm going to go ahead and do that because this is an unscripted conversation that I've been meaning to have with somebody that honestly I've admired from afar. And, you know, I follow you on social media. And you're one of those pastors that I would say, you know, if I went back to church, her church would be one that I would go back to. So I just can't tell you how much it means to me that you said yes to this brave conversation. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So happy to join you, Erica. I um the feelings are mutual and have been cheering for Vest and for you and for the women who are part of this community for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Thank you. Thank you. Well, let's get started. I mean, you and I are sitting here in the middle of the country. You were raised Baptist in the Bible Belt. How have you personally reconciled your Christian faith with your values, especially knowing how often religious institutions have left us out, right? And held us back in a lot of ways.

Reclaiming Texts And Women At The Center

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yeah, I, you know, I was raised to be a very good Southern Baptist girl. I was raised to be a very good pastor's wife. Um, but what the church that raised me did not realize was that they also raised me to be a very good pastor. And um I am the third of four daughters. I have three sisters, and I did not learn sexism at home, um, primarily because my parents could not afford to be sexist. Uh, I didn't have any brothers. So um my mom knew how to drive the tractor and my dad knew how to use uh this will age me a little bit, but news how knew how to use hot sticks to curl our hair. Um and it was at church that I learned that I had a place and uh I needed to stay in it. And um, you know, I think that that's that's the experience of a lot of women. And to just briefly get into some cracks where some cracks started appearing in that uh facade was in college. I went to Oklahoma State on a basketball scholarship, and it turned out that many of my teammates were lesbians. And it also turned out that they were worried about the same things I was worried about, happy about the same things I was happy about, um, went to church, had um their own faith and spirituality just as I did. And that did not align with what I had been told about queer folk. Um and the second thing that happened was that I never stopped going to church in college. I was like the 0.01% of college kids that never drop out. Uh, but the church that I went and the church that I went to was a Baptist church, but the one of the earliest Sundays I was there, they ordained female deacons, which was wild to me. And I went home and I told my mom about this and kind of expected her to be like, that's not great. Instead, she said, Well, yes, some Bab churches, Baptist churches do that. Uh ours doesn't, but you know, and she named another church that was a couple miles down the road from us. They do. And well, I'm just very glad that the women uh at that church are are getting credit and recognition for work that they are doing anyway, that women do behind the scenes. I'm really glad for them. And I thought, oh hmm. So uh over the years, how you know, how have I reconciled um how I was raised, the tradition I was raised in with um going into and being ordained by the same institution that has said no to women so often and uh and tried to use power and control over women specifically in ways that men do not experience. And and what I can say is that I have worked to separate the message from the messenger, and that's a it's a little bit tricky, but um messengers in almost all religious traditions have been men, and so the message has been framed in patriarchal, patrilineal, patrilocal ways, but that does not mean that the message are those things, and it's a little bit tricky, and it is it it takes some some folks pointing out some things, um, I think to to separate those two things. But I mean, when we look at if if we're just going from the text itself, um, the reality is it's that a woman is the first person to name God. Hagar names God before anybody else does. Um God is not as concerned about Abraham procreating as he is, as God is Sarah. Uh the the start of these ancestors that outnumber the stars. And we know that because Abraham did procreate with with Hagar, with another woman. Um, and God was like, no, that's not what we're doing. I really need Sarah in this, right? But that's not really how the story is told. Um, it's male disciples who are consistently in every gospel are portrayed as dunces. I mean, just absolute morons who do not get what Jesus is trying to do. That is obviously not how the story is traditionally told. But if you just read the text, it's the male disciples who never get it. And we can see that in you know, the woman who anointed Jesus with oil. And and about her, Jesus says, wherever the gospel is told, this story will be told with the story of her. Uh the longest theological conversation Jesus has is with the woman at the well. It's not with a dude, it's not with the male disciples, it's with this woman, and he has this long exchange with her. And of course, there is the the the big one that everybody always raises up as you know, the the resurrection was first announced, Jesus first appeared, not to his male disciples, but to a woman, and she was commissioned to go and tell the others. And so when we separate how the story has been told to us by primarily men from a message, from the message itself, we begin to see that God has always called women, God has remarkably um feminine characteristics. Uh, and God has consistently relied on women to um make earth as it is in heaven. Um, and so that's I would say if we were just gonna a phrase now that I've been talking for 10 minutes, um, it would be the way I have done that is to separate the messengers from the message.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

I love that. And it's so true. Didn't think of all from all of those different uh examples that you provided. Lori, I was raised Catholic. Now I'm no longer practicing, as I mentioned to you before when I reached out to you. And you know, the older I get, uh, the more I read uh and the more experience I I gain, the more complicated my relationship has uh gotten with religion. Um honestly, I think I mentioned this to you. I've I've felt this deep resentment at times, um, not just because of how the church has treated women, but also because I feel like it's robbed me of something that used to be sacred to me, which was my faith. And in a lot of ways, I feel like I've lost it. Um and I know that in conversation with other best members and listeners, they feel the same way, right? It's this constant battle of women trying to make sense of what they were thought and what they believed in for so long, and now holding space while still holding space for faith, but not losing themselves in the process. And I think, you know, I again, I know I'm not the only one that's dealing with this. I know we've I've had conversations with several other women. So for women who are in this in-between space that are questioning what they were thought growing up, um, especially around you mentioned it, you know, before in your experience with going to play basketball and and um, you know, having um um uh lesbian uh playmates and all of that, you know, those that are questioning gender role, sexuality, uh power, uh, but they're not necessarily wanting to walk from faith either entirely. How would you coach them? I don't know what the right word is, besides coaching, but how would you talk to them about deconstructing what no longer serves them while still keeping their faith?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

A place to start is one because it goes against everything most women were taught um from their faith community. And that is for us to listen to our bodies and to listen to our knowing, gut, whatever, however you want to phrase that, listen to our knowing, um, to lean into that. Uh, I think so many of us were told that we can't trust our feelings, we can't trust our bodies, uh, and that whatever it is that we are feeling, we probably need to do the opposite of. But I would just encourage you um to to remember that that those that line is mostly about control to not to not trust um your your your heart and your and your soul, your knowing, um, to to to not trust your body. Um we are fearfully and wonderfully made. Why, why would it make no sense that God would would would um create uh create us and then tell us to not listen to the to creation? Um but that can be really, really difficult. Um I'm gonna guess. Uh I think a good example of this is a a good example of this, is that a lot of women raised in um faith communities, specifically in the Bible belt, were told that they sex is bad. Sex is bad, bad, bad until you're married, and then you should be really great at it, even though no one has taught you anything about it and you've been told to distrust your body repeatedly. And so I invite people who are having questions to um sit with that feeling that is telling you that something is not right about the tradition that you were handed or the beliefs that you were handed that have that come in a nice neat box, and you just have to follow the instructions, and everything will be fine, um, to actually sit with and say, all right, um, what is not right about this? What is not matching my experience of God and other people with what I have, my embedded theology, with the theology I was raised uh to think was correct. Um and when we start listening to ourselves, um, I think it becomes pretty clear that uh what we are rebelling against is not necessarily the message, not necessarily faith or belief or spirituality, but about the package in which it is wrapped. Many of us are deeply uncomfortable with the patriarchy, and we for some reason have decided that it is it is unacceptable for us to participate in patriarchy in all other aspects of our life, except for religion. And for some reason, we have decided that that's the one place well we'll just put up with it. We'll just we'll just go along and get along when everything inside of us is saying this is not what we were made for. This is not honoring God or love, this is not honoring justice and mercy, kindness and goodness, it's not honorable, it's not right. I need to find somewhere that honors my experience and my understanding of God and other people. And so if you are thinking something is not right, listen to that voice. Listen to that voice. Um and I I am a firm believer that we all have an we have knowing, we have a knowing. And um, if you start listening to that, you'll figure out the next step. You'll see all the way down the road, but you will know, hey, I need to step away from this, and maybe I can dip my toe in the water in another place or another community.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Um, but it's tough, it's tough. It is tough, but I do love that. Yeah, trusting, uh, you know, I I I still hold on to my faith and it, you know, spirituality. I mean, I know that there's something bigger, you know, and and and like you, I do hold on to uh the things that feel right to me. Yeah, things that, you know, um even when I was practicing, a practicing Catholic, you know, the things that didn't feel right to me, I always discarded them. So it's easy for me, you know. I'm always uh like the the the message against the LGBTQ community, the message around abortion, all of those messages never resonated with me. And it was totally okay. But again, the older I get, I don't know, maybe I'm in this, this is maybe inappropriate for me to say in front of you, but I I tell people I'm in my fuck you stage, you know. You know, uh and so anyway, so it's become a little bit harder to to accept the message, but I I love how you position it. It's just yourself.

Deconstruction, Body Wisdom, And Leaving Harm

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Well, and I would say to you, I think that's a really good stage to be in. You definitely need to be in that stage because there is a point where you just have to say, This is not working, and I'm not gonna participate. I'm not, I'm not contributing my time, my energy, uh, my expertise. Uh, I'm not doing it. And what I will say, I do, I do want to uh gently encourage people to do is yeah, that's good, but also think about what are the things that you are missing? What are the things that bring you comfort that challenge you about maybe it maybe it's from a tradition that you were raised in, maybe it's uh something else that you've encountered on your life's journey. Um, but I'm gonna maybe uh do some assuming here. But I know that for a lot of the former Catholics who are in my congregation, some of the things that they miss include what we lovingly call the smells and bells. And um, you know, those are things that uh, and I would say that is in part because their body remembers that those are things that helped help them regulate. And I know this is not sounding as spiritual so much as it is like just very practical. Um, and I don't apologize for that as I think that we can make religion and spirituality uh frankly not helpful um as far as actually changing our behavior and impacting our practical lives. But things like that, rituals and routines that uh you miss desperately. I mean, I are there are there things that that you feel like immediately come to mind for you when I say that?

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Honestly, for me personally, I don't miss those rituals as much as I do. Um again, it's it's it's like this deep hell resentment that I have when I think when I even think about the institution or organized really. And it's not just, you know, with Catholicism, it's with everything, right? And and again, um, you know, the the oppression that has consistently persisted. And and I know, Lori, that that is human behavior. You know, like I know all the right things that people say, but it still feels um, it just feels like resentment that I need to work through on my own. And it actually leads to my next question that I was gonna ask you because, you know, we're living in a moment where religion is just increasingly weaponized in publics and politics and in public life. And just, you know, and I say that because we're both located in Oklahoma. And, you know, recently at OU, where by the way, my daughter goes through a student was backed by, you know, this organization, Turning Point USA. Uh, and they sued the university because, you know, the the student side of the Bible in a classroom assignment, uh, claiming her religious freedom was violated because I guess she got a zero on the assignment. Um and and you know, that has turned into you know, turning point. Turning that into a big spectacle. And again, using the Bible and using this religious freedom arguments. No, even against uh education institutions, right? I mean, I feel bad for the like if I was, you know, President Harris, I don't think personally that they handle it well, both him and the regents. I don't know what discussions may have happened. Um, but I do see how this organization, turning point USA, is purposely using religion and weaponizing, in my opinion, uh, the Bible to make a lot of their arguments and assumptions. And then they're making a PR debacle over this. So to that, you know, that's just one example. I mean, we can point to 10 other examples that we've seen. How do we hold those institutions and individuals, at the individual, including myself, accountable when religion is used to divide or dominate uh conversations, when it's used to alineate people? Um, you know, how how do we deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, this is a this is a real problem. Um, and and Christian nationalism is a a problem specifically for the church to address, because it's a church problem. Um the one of the things that I talk a lot about is uh precision in language. And when people talk about politics in the church, there's like, oh, you know, there should no politics at in the pews and no politics at the table, right? Those are the rules. Um, because of course that's how you control the conversation when you don't allow people to engage um when you limit what they can can and can't talk about. Um so I invite people to think uh more specifically about what the definition of politics is versus, for instance, uh what partisanship is. And partisanship for me is the definition of partisanship would be behavior that harasses an enemy, which is not behavior that I I would think I think that people of faith um ought to engage in. And and I I do want to say this I when I talk of about people of faith, what I all I I really mean that in a broad sense that includes agnostics and atheists. Um, because when I talk about uh faith, I am talking really about values. And of course, atheists and agnostics have values. Um we all we all have values. Um so I'm saying that in a in a really broad sense. Um but so partisanship is this very particular thing, and and politics, well, while we use it as sort of a synonym, uh partisanship as a synonym for politics, uh, there are different things. Politics is um comes from the Greek word polis, which means of the city, and politics, when we engage in politics, we are shaping the city. So when we talk about politics, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about laws and norms and whether we are going to shape a society that is patriarchal, uh xenophobic, racist, sexist. And we can let the world be shaped in those ways, or people of faith, people of values, uh can engage in politics. And that's very different than engaging in behavior that harasses an enemy, right? It really broadens our ability to work on things for the common good.

Christian Nationalism And Language Precision

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Um and I love you, you know, you started this by saying that, you know, you whether or not we should took policy should uh talk politics within within the church. But I think it applies what you just said, I love it, you know, making the distinction between politics and and and partisanship, because I think we can apply that if we were to apply that at every level, even at a family level, right? How many of us were thought not to talk politics during Thanksgiving or during the holidays or, you know, um to not engage in discussion? Because it's uh anyways, I love I love how you said if we just focus on the laws or the practices or the you know how we're shaping the city as opposed to, you know, well, you're wrong or I'm right, or you know, uh differences of opinion, I think perhaps we could um accomplish a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah, I mean, if we just really take a giant step away from this gamesmanship, this teamsmanship, and that's really what partisanship is is this us versus them, red versus blue, who's gonna win and who's gonna lose. And when we frame it like that, it gets really difficult to make any forward progress. Um, and I you know, I think that I don't think that church, going to church, being being a family that you know is in church every time that doors are open necessarily um makes for good people. There's been so much uh harm done in the name of religion. Um but what I do think the church can provide is an alternative uh framework from what society relentlessly pushes as the most important. And part of that is, and I and I say this as a former student athlete, the world tells us that you know athletics and sports is the most important thing, and we should be uh shaping our lives around a football season schedule or a basketball season schedule. And so we're not thinking about this, but it also really cultivates this um unhealthy competitiveness of all the time. It's not enough to just cheer for your team. You have to actively root for the demise of everyone else. And when the church is at its best, it offers a space for us to not be in competition with each other, but for all of us to be working for the good of everyone when it's at its best.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

So, what would you say, with this in mind and this mindset? Uh going back to the question of what do we do with the bad actors or in my opinion, bad actors and my uh the the institutions that are using uh religion and politics and partisanship to for a specific agenda, right? It's like really clear. Um how do we, how do we um, because I see unfortunately, you know, people that um people in our community, they get persuaded by some of this message in the name of the Bible or in the name of religion. Yeah, like if if yes, if we all go back to like, hey, does this really make sense for our community, for our people, for how we're building the city? Of course, but you know, we live in a world of social media with rage-made clicks and you know, people get angry. So it's really not uh we're constantly being thrown all of these messages of division. How do we, how how would you coach us to, you know, get back to these specifics and get back to and how do we hold those institutions accountable so that they don't continue to misinform and continue to divide in a very in my it's it's like very obscure way, right? Because again, they're using this religious religious language. And and and that's even more dangerous because it's again, it's persuading people that maybe don't mean to, but they end up doing it anyways. Yeah.

Politics vs Partisanship And Common Good

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Yeah, I think one of the things that uh is I think there are many ways to approach this. Um I think I'm gonna name this first one, and um I I I mean, I I'm I'm gonna risk offending some people here, but my congregation will tell you that that does not bother me at all. Um if you are going to a congregation, if you're attending some kind of house of worship that is not speaking out against Christian nationalism, that does not have women in leadership, and I'm not talking just as a uh Christian ed director, uh, but doesn't, but refuses to put women in leadership. Um, that is not aligned with your values of inclusion and diversity and equity, to specifically say those words. Leave. Stop giving them your time, your energy, your money, your resources, your family. Stop it. You are propping up institutions that are perpetuating harm. Stop it. Um, I I know this seems probably I'm sure someone will be like, well, this is self-serving, but um, I gently invite you, not gently, I insist, you explore uh finding a house of worship, a community of faith, or some other kind of gathering that is led by women. Try, just try a tradition that is not uh uh so committed to the patriarchy that it still refuses to put women in leadership. For so long, people have said, well, I'm I'm gonna change it from the inside. And you might be able to do that. But there comes a time when you have to say, it's not happening here, and I need to, I need to uh I need to throw my lot in with people who are already embodying the values I say that I the other thing that I I really encourage people to do is really drill down into their own values so that they can connect with folks who are using wild logical excuses to cause harm. So when we're talking about reproductive uh choice, um access to reproductive care, when we're talking about uh LGBTQ equality, um we need to start talking about um freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, uh things that translate outside of theological language. Um, but I I mean I not I could make the argument or obviously could could be made from a theological perspective, but not everything has to be. Um to broaden the avenues for us to meet in the middle, to find a way. And I I say meet in the middle in a very serious way. That's a really hard thing to do. Um we do not often acknowledge this, but the fact of the matter is usually what's best for everybody means that no one is completely happy with the process. That no, that everyone the most successful mediation is a mediation in which nobody got everything that they wanted. The best legislation that's passed, um, Colin learned this. My husband, when he was served in the House of Representatives, learned this. Um the best legislation is the legislation that came out of compromise. The uh we say one of the sayings I have is that um sacred cows make the best hamburgers. And if we can all just give up a little bit of what we, you know, being completely right all the time, um, we might actually make some progress.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

One of the many things that I love about you is your advocacy, you're you're a real advocate, um, not just a name, but you're out there uh doing literally the Lord's work, in my opinion, because engaging, especially in in a state like ours, you know, where we're located in one of the reddest, although I tell people I'm I'm gonna stop saying red states and I'm gonna call them rig states because we know how much gerrymandering exists in a state like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

I'm stealing that. I am stealing that. That is so great. It's true.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

But you're a progressive leader in a deeply conservative state right now, and we're seeing, you know, we just talked about how this Christian nationalism is blurring the lines between church and state now more than ever, uh, with a very clear political agenda in mind. Um and you kind of talked about, you know, yes, we should talk about uh politics, uh even within the church, but what do you think what do you think is the appropriate role between the church and politics? Should I mean I'm not worried about you per se, but you know, I am worried about we are worried about everybody else. Well, I'm worried about the money that's going behind some of these institutions, the the very, you know, I mean, we're seeing it with Project 2025, we're seeing it with Turning Point USA, we're seeing it with these organists. I mean, Turning Point USA, I think when I looked at the statistics, they raised over$93 million in one year. I mean, they're extremely well funded. Uh, a lot of people think that they're this, you know, they're just going to colleges and having conversations or debates with uh college kids, which that's not at all their business model. They're a PR media campaign to really drive a political message uh to then gain political power. I mean, it's again, it's very obscure. So in a way, I'm always like, you know, but then I see you and you're doing uh grassroots advocacy and really targeting issues that actually affect most Americans, not dividing us, like you're saying. So I struggle with what should the role be from the clergy, from uh, you know, church leaders in politics. I'm struggling with it. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's tough. And I would just say because some people have said we need a religious left to match the religious right. But I don't think that that is the most faithful response. Um, because what we're seeing is um theology that that we're that people are confusing partisan platforms, the Republican Party platform, with the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah.

Building Power Through Broad Coalitions

SPEAKER_01 37:43

That's how it's true. And I um that is absolutely not what I want to copy. I like, and people often do not know this, but I've I've actually never been a registered Democrat in my whole life. Um, I have been um, I was a registered Republican until um until 2017, when I became an independent because I wanted to make sure that I could vote for my husband if he was in a primary. And um so that surprises people sometimes. But the the reality is that again, for me, partisanship is one of the least faithful things we can do. Um part of the problem with that though is that political parties are how people um organize into power, right? It's how they um build power. So, how can we build power without falling into these traps of partisanship? And so, because the church absolutely should not be engaging in that kind of um political action, right? We again we don't want to engage in behavior that harasses an enemy. Um, and that's what people get so turned off by because Christian nationalism, the moral majority, the religious right, turning point, all of that is is really partisanship about the hoarding of resources and power. And that doesn't that doesn't feel anything like the gospel. Um so how do people who have a more generous theology, a more progressive orientation, how do we build power in ways that aren't uh self-seeking? Um and this is this is really when it comes down to relationships. And um most of our our political work at the congregation I serve is done through an organization called Voice, Voices Organized and Civic Engagement. And it is made up of mostly religious institutions, um, dues-paying organizations, um, churches that are committed part of their budget to this work. It consists of Catholics, Unitarians, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, um, you name it, we've got um Minnonites. And um we work on, we don't work on everything because we don't agree on everything, but we do uh talk to each other enough to say, hey, here are the things that we are all facing that our families are all struggling with. What can we do to impact that? And so again, it's I I know that I sound like a broken record, but it's this really taking time to discern the difference between partisan work and political action. Um and you know, I I I will say too, rather than a list of things that people ought to believe, I'm a I'm a I I really think that people need to take a step back and and think about guiding principles. So when we're thinking about how can we make sure that we don't become the religious right or the moral majority or these Christian nationalists who are insisting that everybody believe the same way that they believe. Um, I think that there are four different things that we need to think about. I think that we need to insist that the church conserve the prophetic tradition, that we push back against orthodoxy, we push back against anything that says, anyone that says you have to believe this, no matter what, full stop, period. Um, that's just too rigid. It's too rigid, it doesn't adapt to changing understandings, uh, the the gains and insight we have from science, from the study of human history and socialization. Uh, we cannot adapt and grow if we are too rigid all the time. I think the second thing that we really have to, people of faith really have to insist on is interpreting scripture with intellectual honesty. We have to be honest about the fact that our sacred texts were written in a very specific time and place and by people who had agendas. I think the third thing we really have to do is orient ourselves towards social justice. And I'm speaking directly to uh folks who are evangelical in this way. We've really personalized uh salvation, that um it's just about our personal ticket to heaven, making sure we don't go to hell. And uh the salvation in the Bible is absolutely politically oriented. It is about rescuing people from hell on earth that they are experiencing through tyrants, through the Roman Empire, um, through uh from poverty, saving people from poverty, from isolation. And so if we can shift our our view from it being solely focused on personal salvation to um a to political salvation and keeping in mind our definition of politics, saving of the city, um, we will not repeat some of the mistakes uh that we're seeing uh with the militarization of of religion. And that the last thing I think might be the most important thing, that I think we have to all practice theological humility. So that does not mean that you cannot hold certain things. sacred or dear or believe them deeply. It just means that you also recognize that we cannot possibly have all the answers.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

That someone may know something else.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah. Um, and that out of that feel, out of that humility is comes the desire, comes curiosity. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

What what do you say, Lori, to women? You know, obviously Vest uh focuses on supporting women throughout their career. But also as they, you know, find their voices, as they bill hopefully economic mobility and financial stability. And when I talk to a lot of women, you know, most of them vote, most of them, you know, but it's hard because then you have to vote at the local state. I mean, and then we have to work and then we have to do unpaid labor at home, caring for our kids and doing the household work. And I feel like a lot of women want to engage, but the barriers include, you know, not knowing how, getting overwhelmed, you know, um, and it can be divisive. But one of the biggest ones is loosing relationships, right? Because a lot of our political views are shaped by who we know and our family and our friends and and people we work with. And sometimes when I talk to women, a lot of them feel that if they speak out or if they start engaging that they're going, that they might alineate friendships, maybe some family members. And so they opt for not speaking out, which you know, I always talk about like look, you don't have to, you know, there's so many different ways in which we can engage. It doesn't have to be public or in social media or, you know, there's different ways. So of course. But what I fear the most is not only that they're not speaking out, but they're not engaging, right? And and and it's easy to do because right now, I mean every day you open the news or you open your social media feed and it's like one thing after the another. So I also hear people just tuning everything out to focus rightly so on their career, on their family and and their community or the relationships. So how do we coach women on how to be civically engaged and contribute to the building of our city without getting overwhelmed understanding the risk right that sometimes you might lose relationships that may or may not serve you. Understand then the risk that you know sometimes courage does have unfortunately repercussions right like as we've seen um unfortunately with this administration. Members of your congregation have also come to you to ask these type of questions because it's a constant uh conversation topic of conversation at best.

Guiding Principles For Faithful Public Life

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah absolutely and it's it that is something that I had to wrestle with myself as I walked away as I disengaged from the tradition that raised me I mean um and and stepped into you know pursued ministry as a vocation pursued ordination as a woman um that um was painful uh for my own relationships with my family of origin with the people who had raised me at church who I loved who were wildly confused um about what I was doing um it's really it's really challenging to stay in relationship um when you know that what you are doing is is gonna is gonna cause some kind of um rift and so it's easiest to to not to just maintain the status quo um but of course that gets increasingly harder and I think uh especially as women age and we we we recognize how important it is for us to be true to ourselves um it's it's hard to be satisfied with that status quo and so I want to just acknowledge that it's really hard and it's really tough and it is very easy to focus on what we're gonna lose. But the truth is we don't know what we're going to lose just like we don't know what we're going to gain. Change in any relationship is life. Like our relationships are always changing um right our relationships with our parents are always changing right we're we're always sort of inching towards that role reversal um with our parents um friendships are not always lifelong sometimes they're for a season um I think moms know that best I think I think especially moms of littles know that best or moms with college kids who don't want to spend time with you anymore. That's me that's my you know I it's totally rude of them yes I always tell women don't attach your identity to your work or to your title or your company but I forgot myself to not attach it to even motherhood right because once they leave and you know rightly so they want to do their own thing and they wanted to live their own life but it's still like my identity hard yeah yes well and that's the thing is you've been working for this you want them to be independent adults you want them to be differentiate self-differentiation and all these things and also how rude of them to actually do it. Exactly terrible exactly um but what you gain instead is a relationship with your adult child who is who are they are brilliant and they are figuring things out and showing you things that you had no idea about um yes is that sometimes hard okay yes it is definitely but also hard is not the only experience so I will also say you know as as people are feeling overwhelmed it is very easy to feel overwhelmed with with state and national and world news uh in addition to all of our personal um anxieties family job health our parents health right all of these things are demanding our attention and what I I do think that uh we need to remember is that nobody has to do these things alone someone is someone is working on um legislation gun sense legislation somebody is doing that work you do not have to create it whole cloth you can just come alongside somebody who is already doing really good and meaningful work reproductive justice there's somebody already working on that whether it be in the like just normal secular uh uh arena or or in the or in the faith community somebody's already doing that work you don't have to create recreate the wheel um just enter the stream of of the flow of justice it's it's it's happening so don't feel like it's all on your shoulders to somehow create a movement it may not be as loud as uh some of the other movements that are going on but the only way that movements grow is for people to step into the stream to join the choir uh so to speak um and I think that uh you know I I brought up voice in that uh that organization and I think it's a it's an example of of just how great um it is to be in a a community where you don't agree on every single thing um one of my dearest friends and colleagues is father Tim Lucian who is at Little Flower Catholic Church and Father Tim jokes with me that he is I am his favorite uh matching outfit buddy because when we show up together we're both in our collars we are collared up baby um and uh Tim needs me as much as I need Father Tim we have come from very different paradigms very different traditions oh but that pales in comparison to what we have in common um and a deep devotion to um easing the burdens on the families around us um his tradition has is has such uh such much it's deeper experience in charity in um meeting the needs of neighbors uh that I can learn from and father Tim can tell you what he's learned from me but um but we uh we work together all the time and I am richer for it and and so is he and I think that that translates to the rest of us women often uh you know we have so much to carry we're socialized that way um but we forget that we are surrounded we are surrounded by help but we have to we have to reach out and take it um reach out and accept it um and it is a reminder that we're we're just never alone someone is always doing the work and we just we just need to come alongside um uh there's no no no reason to feel like um that you have to become smaller yeah or do it all on your own I love that message so much because you know one you we started talking about this because from from the perspective of sometimes you lose relationships sometimes you gain new ones right you might lose some relationships but if you build a community and I love how you said you know you don't have to recreate the wheel the most sustainable movements are those it's the collective and the other reason why I love your message so much is because I think that um as a as a as a country you know we're so focused on capitalism and so focused on meritocracy um whether you believe that's a myth or not you know that's debatable.

Women’s Civic Engagement Without Burnout

SPEAKER_00 55:09

But it's it's it's the individual responsibility as opposed to the collective right and I think throughout your messages and throughout your responses you've talked about the the importance of relying on that community and and shifting our mindset from you know even salvation, you know, individual salvation to like, hey, we're all in this together right and we have to look out for one another. We have to create policies that support one another and even if this doesn't affect me right now it affects you. So let's figure out a way that you know helps all of us uh move forward. So but the last thing I wanted to talk about this specific subject that you mentioned is, you know, church has played has always played such an important role in bringing community right and in and um bringing people together and providing that support system for people. But right now if you look at the numbers and I'm sorry I didn't bring them with me but the numbers of like the new generation not going to church and you know spending so much time on social media. And we've seen even with the the prior administration, you know, there were multiple studies done on how isolation is becoming a real problem with mental health uh not just in our youth but in in everyone. Yeah. So just curious as uh I'm sure it's a topic of conversation, you know, for any church leader to say we're losing people from all you know different walks of life and in ages how do we continue to create community and how do we or or how can people find that community you mentioned a couple of ways you know find you know organizations that are focused on movements that you care about. That's one way to engage in community and and and find people to do it with but what about the church? Are you guys talking about this?

Community Over Individualism And Belonging

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Just curious oh oh my gosh yes yes of course always um and I'll tell you that part of my uh doctor of ministry uh work was on um had to do with with uh folks no longer feeling obligated to attend church to continue in the tradition that they were raised or or to continue in organized religion at all and um frankly on the whole I actually think that that's really good thank goodness that is happening thank goodness that people are actually thinking about whether or not the an institution a faith institution is actually meeting their needs and uh moving into the values actually actuating um operationalizing the values that uh they espouse thank goodness that finally I I will also just say people probably overreported their church attendance in the 50s and 60s okay like that's true fair fair right like you don't say yeah I I mean like nobody reported that they really smoked as much as they did or drank as much as they did and uh you know they also probably didn't go to church as much as they said they did. It's the same like they're not like it's there are parallel parallels. Um and we see that too in um political affiliation people are stepping away from our you know these younger generations are like you these uh our major political parties are nuts and I don't identify with either of them I like neither of you are speaking to my values and so people are stepping away from that just like they're stepping away from church. That does not bother me at all um because it provides opportunity for clarity uh for the church to say um for churches who who want to continue in some ways to say we are devoted to the patriarchy we are devoted to um uh to insisting that women stay in their place we are devoted to uh a very narrow definition of what makes a family uh we're very devoted to that and so if these are your values come on great thank you for being clear about that um and so that also means that there are faith communities that say um God loves the rainbow women have always been called by God and we can uh do more together than we can apart so I'm not gonna fight you over the virgin birth great great if you share our values through that what I do think is a little bit worrisome are those congregations that do the bait and switch that say all are welcome and then it turns out that they won't let um uh you know the a a pair of lesbians teach Sunday school or it turns out they won't officiate your wedding and and I think people have to be really careful of that and and you need to insist on clarity um and do not settle that is the other thing that I want to say to women do not do not settle. Yes and I try one of those mega churches I'm gonna call them that you are talking about and um you know another thing I would say it's in the narrative right like this very um I felt like I was going to the fucking gym excuse my language but it just felt like bros talking to each other and you know talking about their muscles and how they love their ladies and I don't it just everything I was like what in the world yes like everybody like my bride and yes we call them theology bros they're theo bros yes yes okay good yeah yeah and and I would just say I I do want to acknowledge that it is I think mega churches are churches that um you know you can walk into and you're very anonymous um and those are the easiest places to to to or they can be attractive at first. Yeah because it is I'm gonna say it's hard to walk into um a medium sized church even I mean even a medium sized church like Mayflower where you're not going to be anonymous um where people are gonna miss you if you're not like if they don't see you um a couple of Sundays they're gonna miss you and they're they may even text you and say are you okay? I'm just making sure everything's okay. I'm not shaming you into attending but I I just want to make sure you're okay. We've had to actually remind people that it is okay to ask people that they haven't seen in a while if they're all right like it's okay to reach out. Yeah um not a judge like Paul is just checking in. Right but it but what that is is actually community. Yeah. No totally and it's messy and it's a little awkward and uncomfortable one of the things that uh church edit best can be is people that say hey I've been noticing you've been acting weird or the things you're posting on social media have been concerning can we talk about let's talk about that or hey you are upset as I am that we had mass shootings all over the world on Sunday night and say I mean on Saturday night and thank goodness we could come to church and somebody said this is awful why do we not have an assault rifle weapon ban what how is it possible that we are still not banning assault weapons want to do something with me about that yes to be able to walk into your church and say and and and and experience um but it requires vulnerability a word that you used earlier yeah and you know I I just love this so much and I'm just gonna have to come you know try it out because another reason why I wanted to have this conversation you know I talked to so many women again we all have different lived experiences we all have different privileges you know um um in in so many women don't have a support system at home right um they don't have a partner maybe they don't have a uh they're not close to their uh family whatever and I feel like um you know church was a mechanism for them to support them um one of my favorite books um of all time is um um holding it together how women became america's safety net and good and bad right like the church has uh served as a safety net for women to have the support that they don't need another bad thing is we should put mechanisms in place in government to care for those that need it the most and not shame them uh for accessing those things that we pay for as taxpayers anyway but that's another conversation so but I I love how you just reframe the church as an a community that cares about you and that can be there for you when you need it to support you not judge you um and to walk along uh side you and and Erica I just want to throw out there I said this earlier don't settle if you are feeling like there is something missing that your spiritual wellness is not where it needs to be don't settle um and I know I'm the one that's on the on the podcast right now but I'll tell you I have we have some incredible I have incredible colleagues who lead really um impactful caring congregations um and I can whether you're looking for a recommendation for a Christian community or a non-Christian uh spiritual community um or a variety whatever variety of Christian whatever flavor you'd prefer um I I you know there are there are a lot of churches that are you know they wouldn't necessarily call themselves even progressive um but but that that there is a place out there for everyone um and and two Often women settle. Gotta quit it. Quit settling. Your spiritual wellness matters. It is an important part of you, and you should tend to it just like you do everything else.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

I love that. What um I know you're a reader. Um, I've in fact when I need a new book to read, I'm like, let me see if Lori has posted any any new books. I know I've I've gotten some uh suggestions for you. What books do you recommend for people who are exploring?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

You know, there is a lot of there are a lot of options. If you are someone um coming in the out of the Christian tradition, one of the books I recommend most often is a book called Speaking Christian by Marcus Borg. And he does a really wonderful job of just explaining that there are a variety of options when it comes to thinking theologically. Um that was one of the most difficult things for me when I was um leaving the Southern Baptist Church. I didn't know anything about anything. I I knew what I was supposed to believe, what I was told. And it can be really disconcerting to be like, well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

I I can't possibly just walk away from everything. Yeah, that doesn't feel right. It was the same for me, you know, as Mexican immigrant, I mean Catholicism. What do you mean there's other religions? What other religion exists, you know? So I had to like learn from scratch and you know, not settle. Um, so I'm still in that uh searching mode uh for me. Um let's talk a little bit about religious trauma because I know it's real. And a lot of women, a lot of people in general, I are caring ones from teachings that have shamed us for all the different things we've already talked about, including ambition for women. Um, you know, that's a big one. Um, but also for our um our community and the LGBT uh Q plus community, right? And the trauma often runs even deeper there. So uh just curious as to what does healing look like for those of us reckoning with uh that kind of spiritual harm?

Clarity Over “All Are Welcome” Bait And Switch

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Yeah, religious trauma is uh real uh and it is uh far too common. And one of the first things is if you are currently in a place that is perpetuating that trauma, you have permission to leave. Um if religion is traumatizing you, it is not of God. And I don't I'm I'm not gonna say that in any uh I'm not gonna try to sugarcoat that at all. You need to you need to leave and you have permission to leave, and God would want you wants you to to remove yourself from harm. And I think that one of the things that's really important is to find uh people to talk to about that who will not deny it. Um, I mean, I'll tell you one of the first things that I say to to particularly members of the queer community who come in the doors is I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the way that that the church has told you that you're that you're wrong or an abomination, or you know, that that that that there's there's something wrong with you. I'm sorry for that ways that that we have excluded you. Um and I think that a lot of people need to hear that. A lot of women need to hear, I'm sorry that the church told you to stay in an abusive relationship because that's what God wanted. Um no one ever why didn't why did no one ever be like, oh, you know, God never asked a dude to stay in an abusive relationship? Like what right? Um, or I'm sorry that that you were you were told that um, you know, any number of harms. So find someone who acknowledges that that that harm has happened and religious trauma is real. I also then encourage people to tend to their spiritual wellness in, and there's a variety of ways to do that. And we do indeed have to do that in personal private ways, but it also has to be done in community. It's not a either or, it's a both and um healing. Uh that that's just how healing works. Um and so one of the the books that I often recommend to people now is a book by Reverend Lizzie McManus Dale. And she wrote um, it's it's technically a devotional book, which I know might be triggering for people, but that's just that's the format of the book. But I love my her title of the book is my favorite, and it's called God Didn't Make Us to Hate Us. Didn't Make Us to Hate Us. And it is uh it's a devotional that uh helps people liberate faith and reconnect with joy. Um and so this is not something that you can just do on your own, it requires um relearning stories of faith told outside of the paradigm of patriarchy, outside of heteronormativity, outside of those frameworks that have boxed us in for so long. So find a resource, find a com uh, you know, uh whether that's a book or um a blog or a substack, find something that you can do some exploring, but also try to also look for and do not settle for anything less than a community that will help you tend to your spiritual wellness healing and restoration. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

To close this up, I just actually posted um a video about the most recent uh lean-in and McKinsey report, Women in the Workplace. I don't know if you saw it, but um, I mean, if you actually read the report, you know, there's some nuances there, but the the the the they started off by saying that women are now less ambitious than men. Of course, on the same report, they also say that when given the same level of resources and support, they're not. So contradictory. Gee, I wonder how we could achieve exactly. But but my point is, you know, we have that. And then we just talked about the rise of Christian, uh, well, I don't know if it's rise, it's always been there, but it seems a lot more as a propaganda via social media, the rise of Christian nationalism, uh, purity culture also on TikTok. I'm sure you've seen all of the videos, and then the trad wife content also that are glorifying women's submission. And make no mistake, I love women who choose to stay at home and care for their loved ones. We have all we have bus members that um are actually not in the workplace right now, but um are staying home. So not judging, but but but you are seeing this glorification of submission almost in this trad life movement. And I don't know about you, but it's hard to see all of that and remain hopeful. But previous speaker on the VUS, um, on the VUS podcast, you know, reminded us that hope is a discipline. So I always like to ask now, how do you stay disciplined in being hopeful? What are the things that are keeping you hopeful and what are the things that you do to make it a discipline?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:29

Uh yeah, so in some ways, hope is a professional obligation for me, right? Hope is a professional obligation uh for preachers. And some there are days when I think, oh my goodness, uh I was called into ministry because I am a glass, half-empty girl. I'm like, let's keep our expectations low. We can never be disappointed that way, which is obviously a trauma response. Let me be clear, but I'm working on that with my therapist. Um the uh I the the thing I mentioned it earlier. Um some of the things that I find hope in are include that people are actually um what organizations, what collections, what communities they want to be part of. And they are only going to devote their time and their energy and their resources to those with which they share values. And and I think it's even getting now, we're even getting deeper into that where it's not just you share this value, you are operationalizing this value, you are putting it into practice in ways that I I can that we can see and feel and are making a difference. Um and I see that all the time. I I mean, I see that um in certainly I I think you know, we first saw it in Gen Xers and Millennials, and it is only getting worse, better, um, with with um these these upcoming generations. They're insisting uh on it. And and I also see, you know, we are all very worried about technology and phones and social media and addictions and and all of those things, but we're seeing study after study where when young people uh are given the option to detox when they go through a you know a cell phone detox, a smartphone detox, or social media detox, they come out on the other side and they their behavior has changed and they say, Oh, I I like myself better. When I put some guardrails around this, um they they know they they are aware that things are not right and they are willing to make changes, and so that is a very hopeful thing to me. Um, the other thing that I find really hopeful is that um people are saying no and pushing back against Christian nationalism, against extreme partisanship, and we are seeing it everywhere. I know what the headlines seem completely terrible, but the fact of the matter is those Republicans in Indiana, they said no.

Religious Trauma, Boundaries, And Healing

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

Pretty hopeful. And and and Tennessee, I mean, um, Afton didn't win, but she came pretty close. I mean, what Trump won by 20 points plus point? I can't remember. But then she came in and you know, nobody, and and that gives me hope too, even for places like Oklahoma. You know, it's very easy to write us off as a red state, as a, you know, because we're not a you know, battleground state or whatever. And I think that, you know, I think that's such a mistake uh for everyone involved, because I think that's what in in a lot of ways what has fueled this uh populism, right? Like this rise in people feeling left out, feeling left out of of uh, you know, the policies that are being shaped in Washington, DC, feeling left out of this innovation economy, if you will. Um and you know, I think people are just tired, right? They're tired and and they're standing up to your point. Don't care what political party you belong to, you're either for us or not for us, right? Uh and and the guide to service and support people, not corporations, not billionaires, but people. And so I think you're right, that gives me hope.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Hope is a muscle to exercise it. Um, and and one of the best ways we can do this are these kinds of conversations, Erica. This community that you are leading uh is is vital, is is is so vital. Um, it is a hope generator, is how I would phrase how I would um characterize it. And and we need we need more of we need more of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

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