Don't Leave Money On The Table

Speed and visibility are often rewarded in the workplace, but they can also lead to costly mistakes, including leaving money on the table.

In this episode, we sit down with Jacqueline Twillie, author, leadership strategist, and founder of Bend AI, for a candid conversation on negotiation, decision-making, and high-stakes communication, especially for women who have been socialized to be “polite” instead of persistent. Moderated by VEST member Alison Anthony, President and CEO of Tulsa Area United Way, this discussion challenges conventional thinking and offers a more strategic approach to advocating for your value.

Together, they unpack the mindset traps that hold women back from asking for more and the real cost of not doing so. You’ll walk away with practical frameworks you can begin using immediately, whether in your career, business, or everyday conversations.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why preparation, not confidence, is the true driver of better decisions
• How to slow down fast-moving rooms and “set the temperature”
• Three common negotiation pitfalls: self-negotiation, worthiness spirals, and failing to follow up
• The FLOW framework for navigating difficult conversations
• The LATTE framework for preparing, communicating, and evaluating negotiations

A thoughtful, practical conversation on how small shifts in how you prepare and communicate can lead to meaningful financial and career outcomes.

Click here for Show Notes and Guests Bios

Transcript

Erika Lucas 0:03

Hi everyone, I'm Erica Lucas. Welcome back to the Vaster Podcast, where we have real conversations that support women as they navigate work, leadership, politics, money, and the systems shaping our lives. In today's episode, we're talking about negotiation tactics and communication tools, how to prepare for high-stake conversations, advocate for a value, and make decisions with greater clarity and confidence. Our guest speakers for today are Jacqueline Tweely, author, leadership strategist, and founder of Bend AI, whose work focuses on negotiation, decision making, and high-stakes communication. Moderating the conversation is my dear friend and best member, Alison Anthony, president and CEO of Tulsa Area United Way. Together they explore topics that hold women back from asking for more. Why preparation matters more than performance, and practical tools you can start using right away to negotiate with more intention and confidence. For our guestful bio and show notes, go to www.vesther.co forward slash podcast. If you enjoy our episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of women, eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vesther.co to learn more.

Jacqueline’s Career And Core Insight

SPEAKER_06 1:47

Thank you to the Vest team for inviting me here today. And I'm really honored to be able to moderate the discussion with Jacqueline, who uh we were on the on a call together yesterday and we uh became fast friends and have a lot to talk about. I think we'll be uh staying very connected, which is what VEST is all about. So if you're just visiting and uh you've or and you haven't joined yet, I can tell you that one of the things I love is the intergenerational and intersector industry, uh cross-country. Our friend Elizabeth Ellison's on here from San Francisco today as an example. And uh it is just such a wonderful way to expand your network and meet fabulous people and learn, which, you know, I think all of us are courageously curious and trying to learn as much as we can. Jacqueline, I let's jump right in. I have read your book. I can't wait to hear about the practical wisdom, and you share so much practical wisdom there. But first, let's hear about your amazing career journey. You've built companies, you've educated, trained over 10,000 professionals, and now you're focused on high quality, high-stakes communication. So, what in your career made you realize how people make decisions, decisions is just as important as the decision itself?

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Yes, thank you so much, Allison, for that introduction. And I agree we're gonna be a friend. The the bond was really um serendipitous yesterday. So, Erica, thank you for being the connector. And hello to everyone invest. I'm so honored to be in your community. So, to answer your question, I realized as training thousands of professionals over the years that a lot of people would go to a decision and a negotiation thinking that they had a decision-making problem. And it was rarely a decision-making problem, but more so a preparation problem. In my view, 90% or sometimes 60% of the negotiation is in the preparation. The more you know, the better informed decisions that you can make. So it was taking a step back, going, what happens right before we make the decision? And that's the available data and information that we have. So encouraging people to slow down and instead of just focusing on what to say and when to say it, making sure that we have the right information to make those split second decisions in those high-stakes conversations.

SPEAKER_06 4:24

I love that. People sometimes say to me, wow, you just did a great job extemporaneously without any preparation. And I always say, that's because I'm never without preparation.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Right. That's years of preparation there.

Slowing The Room Without Hesitation

SPEAKER_06 4:37

Right, right. Well, you talk about prioritizing uh precision over scale and preparation over performance, but in workplaces that are so hyped up on speed and visibility, how can professionals discipline themselves to slow down their thinking without appearing hesitant or uncertain?

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Yeah, so I think that our ability to pace the room, I saw this quote one time, I think it was on Pinterest, and it said, set the temperature in the room. And I saved it as a screenshot, and I eventually sent it to several of my girlfriends. And that's such a good example of when things are moving fast and you work in a high pace, uh, high-speed environment, you, as the leader, whether you have a leadership title or not, you have the authority to slow things down a bit, to gather the right information, to ask insightful questions that go beneath what you think is the issue to really get to the core and to make a decision from there. I've often found that sometimes when rooms move really fast, really expensive mistakes happen. And so we get on this train and someone uh typically is talking loud and fast and using their deep voice, and they might even pound the table and it makes your heartbeat fast, and you're like, oh, I need to keep in this tempo. But interrupting that tempo can be a great benefit to the organization as well as yourself in high-stakes negotiation. So never be afraid to say, this is a question that I have, and go through a follow-up question if necessary to adjust the pace.

SPEAKER_06 6:22

Well, thinking about um leadership and the ways you talk about it and the self-awareness, that is so critical. You know, being able to step outside yourself in that moment and say, I don't have to get caught up in this frenzy. I can set the temperature, not just rise to a high temperature. So I love that. And there's one more junk, Alison.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Um, as you were saying that, I wanted to mention also in those moments, if you find yourself getting caught up and swept into a moment and you start moving at the pace that you don't want to, give yourself grace. You know, it's a muscle that you have to build to be able to tap into those questions and then kind of slow things down. So if you set an intention before meeting, hey, I'm not gonna get caught up in the fast movingness of this conversation. I'm gonna be focused on the quality of the decision. And then you get caught up and you go with the speed, that's fine. Debrief with yourself after the meeting. What did I learn here? What phrases or what questions can I ask next time? And just journey with it in grace. Don't be hard on yourself as you're learning the skill.

Pay Gap Reality And Why Asking Matters

SPEAKER_06 7:28

I love that. I love that. Finding that sweet spot for yourself between the frantic pace that you might get caught up in and being too hesitant or lacking confidence. And I speaking of hesitant, what I would say is that women in particular can't afford society, our culture can't afford for women to be too hesitant when it comes to negotiations. And I pulled this number out because I gave my high school graduation speech, and I guess I haven't changed all that much because in 1983, when I graduated from high school, um, I talked about the fact that women were making 60 cents, 66 cents on the dollar for men in 1983. And um I I was trying to educate the folks in Eat, Oklahoma, that that actually wasn't okay. It wasn't a good thing for the state, you know. And uh then 35 years later, I gave a speech in 2018 at OU for their commencement here in Tulsa. And at that moment, I looked it up, and women were making 80 cents. So in those 35 years, we had about a 0.4 cent increase per year, 14 cents over 35 years. So I figure at that rate, when I'm 88, we should be up to about 94 cents. So I need you all to really listen to Jacqueline today because I am hoping her leadership pays off and that before I die, I will see pay equity because it is just such a terrible thing for our community when women are the ones making so many decisions and an investment and yet not having the income to do that. So when you wrote don't leave money on the table, Jacqueline, please share with us the three most common negotiation mistakes that you see mid-career women make. And how would you coach us up differently?

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Yeah, so quick backstory. I actually wrote Don't Leave Money on the Table because I went to an equal pay event around 2012. And um newly minted MBA. I thought I was hot shit, and I thought I was being paid well because I was the highest earner in my family as a first-generation college grad. And in the intro of this room, which was all women and mostly millennial women, they had us write our salary on a piece of paper with nothing else, no name, no title. And we put it into a bucket and they shook the bucket up and they shook it up. And towards the end of that event, they had us take the piece of papers out and just stand up and read the numbers, right? It was a chilling experience and it changed my life. Because as I heard those numbers, I realized, whoa, these numbers are way higher than mine. And here I am thinking I've made it because I earn more than my family who's worked 30 years at one job. And I got really curious. I got pissed off. And I also decided like, what is it that I'm missing? Why am I not earning a lot? And I saw the comment just come across the screen a few moments ago that for women of color, that pay gap is even lower. So um, yes, I fall into that category. And then I thought, what can I do about this problem? And it put me on a three-year spiritual quest of what is my purpose in life and how can I do something about this pervasive issue? And I learned that it was so complex. It's not just one thing that contributes to the wage gap, but one thing that we all have in our power is the ability to ask for more. So when I wrote Don't Leave Money on the Table, it was really about saying, hey, here are some tools that we may not be aware of that we have that we're not using in everyday conversations, so that we are showing up with agency and advocating for ourselves and not leaving money on the table. So the three mistakes that I see folks make, especially women, is we negotiate against ourselves, we get into our own heads before the conversation starts. Um, that's tied to mistake number two is worthiness. Have I done enough? Do I deserve this? And mistake number three is that we don't follow up and ask again and again. I'm an auntie and my young kiddos, my young humans, they are vicious. They will ask the same question 50 ways. I'm like, how can you ask the same question so many ways? But that's the mistake we make in adulthood in our professional careers, is we don't follow up and ask again because we're worried about politeness.

SPEAKER_06 12:11

I love that. I am going to, when I when I get tired and don't want to ask again, I'm going to channel my two and a half-year-old uh granddaughter Harper, who follows me around the house and says, Nami, possible, pasical, passible. So that is going to be the refrain in my head. I love that you talk about purpose too. And you shared with me yesterday that women actually are great negotiators when we're representing other people or representing causes, but less so with ourselves. So, and then we're told just be more confident. Um, do you think sometimes workplaces overemphasize confidence and underemphasize the things that we can learn and preparation and decision quality?

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Absolutely. I think that women are excellent negotiators, research backs that up, um, especially when we're going to bat for someone else. So, Professor Margaret Neal at Stanford, she's written a lot about this. I love the talks that um are available on YouTube, so you should check her out. Neil is N-E-A-L-E, I believe is the proper spelling of it. And when we talk about women in confidence, it's typically women receive very vague feedback, like, oh, add more personality to this or, you know, just talk up a little bit more, but don't sit here and don't do that, right? It's very nuanced, vague things where women begin to second guess themselves, which is the opposite of instilling confidence because now you're trying to do the right thing. What I find to be more important is preparation. I've worked with so many women over the past decade. And the one thing that I know is that if they show up with the data and prepared, they are unstoppable. They don't have to worry about saying the exact right phrase. They know that the right thing will come up because they've done their research. And so if we go back to one step before the conversation is what are we doing before that? What information are we looking for? What questions are we asking? And what assumptions are we challenging? That helps us to show up as our most confident selves. Now that's in addition to when you're in the room, if if possible, having an ally who can back you up and say, hey, she said that. But if you don't have that luxury of having someone in the room, then this is where that in internal self-talk, um, Dr. Carol Dweck talks about the growth mindset and the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. That's where you have to really tap into your own growth mindset in those conversations and be your best cheerleader. And my personal hack, Allison, I think about the 82-year-old version of Jacqueline, who's healthy, who's wealthy, who's vibrant, who's thriving, who's sipping a spiked kombucha on a porch somewhere. And she's like, girl, in that conversation, it was tough. And you might have sweated out your blowout, but you got through it and you held your own.

What Real Preparation Looks Like

SPEAKER_06 15:21

Well, I want to be there and I want to make sure we have equal pay for our grandchildren, right? For our granddaughters. I would we can we can toast on the beach. Um, I always uh uh have a refrain in my head of Annie Lennox and Aretha Franklin singing, sisters are doing it for themselves. You know, I I may be the only one old enough to remember that song, but um we nobody's coming, nobody's coming to save you, sisters. We need to speak up for ourselves here. So I think your your high-stakes conversations can can be paralyzing. And I was reading a couple days ago, uh, talking about how some of us as women, because we are learners often and curious, we read and read and read and listen to podcasts. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but sometimes we can get immobilized or paralyzed in our learning and not move to action. So talk to us about what actually preparing for the high-stakes conversation looks like. And you're, by the way, just to mention your book again, excellent um amount of really good tips and resources. I wish I listened to it on Audible, but I wish I had bought it and I am going to buy it because it's it serves as a almost a great template to help you prepare. So talk to us about preparing for the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

So preparing for the conversation, you're right. Sometimes we can get into analysis paralysis. And while I emphasize preparation of getting the data, it's also important to build the muscle. So I'm on a personal workout quest right now. Um, as my early 40-year-old self, I'm thinking about that 82-year-old version. So I'm going to the gym. So the first day I went to the gym, I came back and my partner, I was like, look, I think I see the top of a six-pack here. And he cracked up. He's like, Oh my goodness, girl, you're so dramatic. The point that I want to share about that story is when you begin to negotiate, if just like me, I'm aspiring for a six-pack one day, I can't expect to see the result that day. I have to consistently work at it. I have to consistently show up in the gym. And over a period of time with consistency, with eating properly, I'm going to see the result. So when it comes to negotiation and our preparation, yes, we have to gather the data, but we also have to practice using our voice. So some low-stakes examples are calling like your insurance provider, whether it's homeowners or renter's insurance, and simply asking the question, am I getting the best rate? Or do I have the best plan for my usage? And that is a simple form of negotiation where you're practicing asking the question. The other thing that I like to do is, especially for high-stakes conversations where I think I might get tongue-tied or someone might over talk me or they might be adversarial. I look in the mirror and I turn on my phone recorder and I'm actually recording myself having that conversation in front of the mirror. How is does my body language look? Is my voice changing? Am I speeding up, slowing down? Is am I too loud? Do I feel like I'm using my hands too much or flipping my hair? Just so that I'm aware, going back to that self-awareness piece. That's a part of preparation. And then my other thing in terms of preparation is I turn on the TV to um perhaps a YouTube of a news station that I vehemently disagree with. And I put that recorder back on. And I want to see how does my face, what story am I telling with my facial expressions when I disagree with something? And then I watch it. And that's the hardest part is watching it back and listening to myself in the mirror to say, okay, here I feel like I I thought I was confident, but I don't actually sound confident. Or I thought I was in control, but I'm not. So those tiny preparation pieces help to show up in a meeting when it's adversarial or the stakes are high, or I think it's going well, but I notice body language drifting. Then I'm able to say, Oh, let me pull it back together. Let me slow down, take a sip of water. And I always have a sip of water, uh glass or a glass bottle with a straw to be able to sip water as my physical cue to slow things down.

SPEAKER_06 19:49

Those are great tips. I also encourage all of us to make sure that we ask people that we trust to give us feedback. And I have a friend, I'll I'll do it for you right now, but I have a friend that said, you're doing that thing again. And I said, What thing? And she's like, when people are saying stupid things, you start blinking really fast, like you're trying to keep the stupid out, you know, like stop. And so she's like, you're she would then like text me in a meeting and say, You're doing the blinking thing. So, you know, it's good to have those friends who know you well enough and and can uh can give you that that straight feedback. I also was thinking while you were talking about and and I saw Perrin say celebrate those six-pack abs. Absolutely, the beginning or any any part of them, uh, celebrate that. But also I do want to celebrate because it can be so frustrating um in this time that we're living in, and it sometimes it feels like we're going backwards. But in a long-term perspective, in 1988, when men, by the way, still had to sign with their wives to get a loan, um, or your dad if you didn't have a husband. And and um in 1988, I had a female boss at Oklahoma State University tell me uh where I was working. She said, Oh, Allison, clearly you're the better employee on this team, but I'm gonna have to take my budget for a raise and give it to Robert because he's got a family, his daughter's getting ready to go to college, and I know he, you know, he's the head of his household, so I need to give it to him, which by the way, I was the sole earner of my household. My husband was in college, you know, I was pregnant, but uh or you know, trying to get pregnant. And uh so I think we have made a little progress, but I also think about what you say in your book about if you need some motivation for that 82 year old vision, half a million dollars if you don't negotiate that first salary, am I right? It can add up to half a million dollars uh or more over the course of your career. Yeah. So, so I just think um, I think, you know. Thinking about that reality of the future. And I'd I'd like to open it up for a second. We're we're about at our halfway point. And I'd like to just open it up. Jacqueline and I talked about everything from role-playing to scenarios. We thought it might be a little too intimidating to role play. But I would love to hear if anyone has a scenario that they would like to share to lift up and just offer up, hey, you know, this is a scenario, and I'm I'm trying to negotiate. And it could be your a job that you really want that would be, you know, in the early negotiations. It could be in your in your career at the play your place of employment. It could be some other kind of negotiation. Does somebody have a have a um scenario they'd like us to workshop?

Rate Pushback And Value Based Packages

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yes, thank you so much. Um, this actually just happened to me on Monday. I went um in um to have um a conversation with someone who's wanting to to contract me, and um they're like, what is your current rate right now? So I told them my rate right now, and I was like, I do um hourly rate, but we can most definitely negotiate like a uh a different rate like for a package because they specifically wanted me to do like a very very something very specific. So I told them my hourly rate, um, and they said, Well, first of all, as I was telling them what I do, my credentialing, what how I could help them, um, he's like, Wow, you were overly qualified, like you're you're absolutely amazing. And so giving me all this praise, and then whenever I told him my rate and we came down to negotiating with him for his contract, they said, Are you willing to what's the lowest rate you can you can are you willing to negotiate? I was like, Hold on, you're telling me I'm overly qualified that I should be charging more. You're telling me, Why are you charging so less for all these for some of your other contracts? But yet it comes to your contract and us working together and money coming out of, I guess, like your pocket for lack of better terms. He's like, What's the lowest you can give us? And I just stood there so just an awe. And I guess what would and I told him, Let me think about it and I'll let me come back to you um with a package and a few rates, but I guess what would you guys recommend in that situation? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Thank you for sharing that scenario. And um, I've been there, so I know exactly the feeling that you describe when you're on the end of dispraise and you're like, what just happened? That's like a true WTF moment. Like, is this the same conversation? So, this is what I would recommend. Um, in negotiation language, there's a technical term called anchoring. And anchoring is where it's like your base price, where you start the conversation, right? So from there you can go up or down. So, what you did when you gave your rate was that you anchored. What they tried to do was then get you to lower the price. Anytime you set the anchor and someone says, What's the cheapest I can get this for? And I'm paraphrasing, I know he didn't say that exactly, but that's kind of the vibe he's giving. What I would recommend is that you focus on the value of delivery and not the price. So when someone says, What's the cheapest I can get this for, or what's the lowest, then you say, Well, I can give you the this base service for this. Okay. So now instead of giving them everything that they want, you're giving them, well, if this is your budget, then I can do this. What happens is, and this is where I want to go back to that preparation part in the conversation, I appreciate that you shared your credentials. That's critical. Alongside that, you should also be using that time for fact-finding. So understanding what's the problem here that you want me to solve for your organization? What is significant about this pain point? Ask questions like if you don't solve this soon, what will that impact be for the business? And then when they come to the point where they say, Well, what's the lowest I can get this for? And then say, okay, well, do you want this problem solved? So, in terms of you've already had the conversation and now you need to get back with him with packages, the way I would do this is I would give three options. I would say, if you want me to address the base problem, which is this, then it's this amount. If you want me to address half the problem, it's this amount. If you want me to address the full scope of the problem, it is the price that we discussed. I would not drop the price any lower, the full price, if they want the full problem solved. Does that make sense? And Allison, I want to hear your advice on this also.

The Power Of Silence And The Pause

SPEAKER_06 27:03

I I think that was great. I think um really leaning into finding that shared purpose, shared value, you know. And I since I asked for money for a living often and am trying to solve community problems, I think leaning into say, you know, we can fix this. Let's find our common ground. I have these skills, you have this need, I want to get into this with you and help you solve this problem and get in the boat with them uh and kind of like you said, redirect that conversation to the solution, but not diminishing your value. Um, I also think you point out in your book something that's so wonderful, and that is shut up. There's an old movie. Again, I'm I'm living in the 80s today, but it's um a Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton movie, Shelley Long called Night Shift. And um there's a scene where where Michael Keaton is in a morgue drawer. I'll let you watch it, but he's he's replaying this uh audio tape. He says, to shut up. This is you know, to you to shut up, to shut up. And sometimes I think as um negotiations and and as we're discussing problems, we too often are not comfortable with silence.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:26

And we will just keep trying to fill the silence, and we'll talk about well, I really need to ask for the salary or this income because I my car just broke down or daycare is so high. I mean, that is not their problem, right? That is that's yours, and so I really think one of our daughters, Chelsea, uh, has had a lot of success with saying, well, my my rate will be this, and then just stop talking.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Absolutely. The power of the pause is so significant. Now, in the moment, you think, oh, it's been 10 minutes, but really it's been like seven seconds. So just understanding that pauses are strategic. The other thing that I've witnessed over the years with entrepreneurs negotiating and with people negotiating a salary, they'll give a counter or they'll throw out a number and the other person says, I'll get back to you. Some people freak out if they don't hear back the same day. Some people freak out if they don't hear the next day. That gap is where I like to listen to my favorite music. I do my favorite workout, I put on my favorite perfume, and I'm really embodying, oh, what does it feel like to have accomplished this and to negotiate this? What I find most people do in the freakout zone is they're like, oh my goodness, I blew it. I asked for too much. I should have just accepted. And so we have to become our own best hype woman and really anchor into like, what's the best case scenario here? And what if they're taking their time to figure out what they can do on my behalf? Now, Allison, you and I talked yesterday about when some people don't negotiate when they're presented a project or a job, that sometimes you second guess, like, oh, how effective are you going to be in this role that you didn't take the time to negotiate in this moment? So the pause, it's say what you have to say and stand on business and just let that silence sit. And then if a few days pass by, that meantime, just focus on positive, like best case scenario. And if it doesn't work out, guess what? Something greater will come. My personal mantra is it's this or something better.

SPEAKER_06 30:43

That's great. I love that. I and I've heard yoga teachers say that to me. So shall it be or better? It's a wonderful, it's a wonderful phrase. And I I thought back after we talked yesterday, I don't think I haven't given everyone everything they've ever asked for in a negotiation in my 40 plus years of management at this point. But what I have uh realized is I don't think I've ever not hired someone because they asked for more. And I will say, I I don't, I also don't think I've ever put all my cards on the table when I have first made that offer. To your point, I I think there have been times that I've been like, oh, you're leaving money on the table, girl, you need to ask, you know. And then you kind of have as a boss this um ethical dilemma where, like, do I go ahead and say, well, you didn't ask, but you know, I think, yeah, you know, I think we, I I have never, I thought I could not think of one time where negotiations broke down and I said, Well, I'm not gonna be able to hire you. Now, you know, sometimes people decide they can't afford a job, but it wasn't ever me that walked away because they were asking. So I think that we'll take one more question um from uh the team here.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah, so um I'm kind of curious about negotiation in terms of partnerships. So for instance, um you know, how to set the tone to be able to meet in the way that like I don't want to say the way that benefits you the most, but an example. Um, I've been bringing this up on our calls often because I finally have a call with this person. I'm talking to a potential co-founder, and I we do software. She is interested in also like part like being a co-founder in my software, but me running a spin-off white label version that she would run separately, and it's just really confusing. So, my goal is to say is to get her to see the value in just partnering on one project and putting all of her eggs in that basket, and and um, because I really don't want to spin off and accidentally make a competitor. So um, and so I'm like trying to figure out how to negotiate that from a place of she technically has I have the actual product, she has more network leverage, and so I think that's where it's like the power dynamic currently is, if that's helpful.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Thank you for sharing that and congratulations on this conversation. It seems like you've been preparing for a while and on the business. So, one thing I wrote down as you were speaking is that yes, you should be looking for mutually beneficial deals, you should be thinking about your best interest as a businesswoman. So there's no um need to apologize for thinking, how do I make the best decision for myself? Also, you mentioned something along the theme of shared value, right? Um, in this case, where this is a great negotiation because you have an idea and a concept that you've worked on, you recognize the value she could bring to that, to your product. And it's about anchoring now, bringing it back to one deal. So, what I would advise is don't censor the conversation about the white label spin-off. I think you focus on what you originally um suggested for her. Is this the product, this is where I see your value being combined with my value, while I can acknowledge that you have a desire for a separate entity? That's not something at this phase that I think would be the best use of the energy. I'd like to focus on how we can reach a mutually beneficial agreement for you to engage in the original concept that I presented to you. And from there, I would also get into what concerns do you have that um make a priority, make it a priority for you to think about this spinoff business. So understanding what's that underlying driver for that other entity, and then bringing it back. Is there a way that we can address that if you partner with me on this? The other thing that I would encourage you to consider, and I learned this the hard way, this cost me about$80,000, is to really outline partnership expectations up front. And this can take a month, maybe two months, sometimes longer, really outlining what are the responsibilities of each of us in this partnership. How are we going to measure success? And also when we reach a disagreement, what is the path that we're going to agree to today to resolve that disagreement? Like I said, it's cost me a lot of money. So I would encourage you. This is one of those things where you want to take your time and slow down on this process. And I wish you all the best. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_06 35:52

Um, I'm gonna call out Nicole's statement because I think it it's uh aligned to what we're talking about here. I think we have to be prepared for the consequences or opportunity when advocating or negotiating. The negotiation process can really expose misalignment in an organization. So, you know, when you're thinking about that person that was negotiating saying, wow, you're really so caught uh so accomplished and overqualified, but let me undercut you. You know, I mean, you you may realize that this isn't an organization that you want to work with. And I think that that is a really wise point. I also want to answer my friend Autumn's question about hype the music uh to to hype you up. One of the songs that I use when I'm preparing uh to take on a tough challenge or question or solution on behalf of our community is I play Shaka Khan's I'm every woman, because I remember that what I'm asking isn't just for me, it is for all the women before and after me who are um who are maybe not in a position to make the hard ask. And so I remember that. But autumn, I'll send you the playlist. I had a New Year's Eve women's uh brunch and everybody submitted a song. And so we've got Girl on Fire, Don't Stop Me Now.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

Girl on Fire is on my playlist.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

F you by Lily Allen. Yeah, it's a great playlist. I'll share it. I'll share it. But I want you to talk about um, Jacqueline. You know, you and I talked yesterday that women are often penalized for negotiating the ways that that we come across when men are rewarded for those same efforts. And how do we negotiate that? I think this would be a really great time to share your flow acronym as well.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Yeah, so the flow acronym is perfect segue from the last um point that you made. Flow is um a step that a process that I like to use anytime you're going through a difficult conversation. I also want to mention when I think about negotiation, I don't think battle. I think conversation. And that simple reframe can change how we show up in that conversation. So negotiation is a conversation, not a battle. So the flow acronym F is facts over feelings, right? So our feelings could say something, but we also want to be anchored in the facts of the conversation. Leverage the opportunity to listen and learn is uh L. Be open to new ways of doing things or new possibilities. That's that creativity tapping into the O. And W is be willing to walk away. Okay. There are some times where the timing isn't right. That doesn't mean we're we need to have a fallout or we're never gonna speak to each other or work with each other again. It just means right now the time isn't right. And we have to be okay with willing to step away and know that this isn't the end of an opportunity. So there's uh concepts of a scarcity mindset and an abundance mindset. And when I was working on the flow acronym, I was also learning a lot about the abundance mindset and knowing that this isn't the end all opportunity. This one thing isn't going to end. I think I shared with you all, it's this or something better. So when you walk away, you're not walking away with resentment, you're walking away with confidence to say, this wasn't the best for me or my business or my future at this time. But I can be open to exploring this conversation again in the future.

The LATTE Framework For Negotiation

SPEAKER_06 39:30

I love that. And we're always afraid of walking away in a scarcity mindset because we think we'll never have an opportunity. But I think I think about hope as kind of gentle, sometimes it's it's picture you don't have to have forced optimism or forced belief. It can be even seeing a closed door, but it's not locked, and maybe you're gonna open it in the future to a different to a different result. So I I love that just to imagine that this isn't the end. And I've heard Oprah and Maya both say to my uh my profits um that what if this isn't happening to you? What if it's happening for you? For you, yeah, and what can you do to help it happen for you and not to you if you have to walk away? So I love that. Now, talk to us about your famous uh trademark latte framework because there's probably not very many of us on this call that don't love a good latte.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

So I'm so glad you said that. Have you all been in a coffee shop behind someone and they had the most incredible elaborate latte order? I mean, one pump of this, skinny on this, double this, and you're like, how in the heck can you customize a latte that way? I want you to think about that when we talk about negotiation. So, over the years, what I learned is that because we are not um trained to think about money and to have open conversations about our salaries with girlfriends. This is a relatively new concept to talk about money, that a lot of times the negotiation just feels like ick and like, oh my goodness, I can't think of it. So I created latte to just kind of lower the temperature on the ick factor so that we can talk about our money amongst people that we trust and also to prepare in a strategic way. So just like you hear that person customizing their latte order, I want you to take these five steps that I'm gonna give you from latte and I want you to put your own spin on it and make it your own. So the framework to set up a conversation, your negotiation is look at the details. Look is step number one. Anticipate is step number two. Step number three is think, step four is talk, and step five is evaluate. Now let me run you through this really quick. Look at the detail. This is where we're gonna do the preparation, right? 60 to 90 percent of that conversation is done in the prep. The second thing is, and I want you all to comment if you can relate to this. Anticipate. I used to leave conversations thinking, oh, I should have said this or I should have said that. Now, if you can relate, give me a one in the chat. I just want to see who's with me. So anticipate. There are several people who can relate to that, all right? So anticipate is where you think about what are the different scenarios that this conversation can take, and how might the strongest, most confident version of myself respond to it? How would she respond to this curveball in the conversation? That helps you to really mentally lock in. So when that happens, instead of you thinking the next day, I should have said this, now you're prepared in the conversation to say that. Think is where you want to think strategically. What's in my best interest, not just short term, but I'm also thinking about long term. What do I need for retirement? If I'm growing my business, what expectations are I am I setting with my clients now? If I'm going into a partnership with a potential co-founder, how can I set us up for success as co-founders as well as the business? And then set us up individually so this is both rewarding. And then we go to the talk aspect. And this is not just in the conversation, it's also tied to preparation. How can I say the things that I want to say in the most confident way? What questions can I ask to get more insight? And then we go to E, the final step of latte, and that's evaluating. As Allison said, there's some times where they've been in a, she's been in a negotiation and she couldn't give what they wanted and they've decided to walk away, but she's never pulled an offer because someone has discussed that evaluate piece, deciding if you're going to move forward and accept versus walk away. That's important. And how you do that is important. So if you have a process where you can sit down and you say, these are my short term goals, these are My long-term goals, is this opportunity aligned? Do we have a values alignment? Do we agree on honesty and integrity as a foundation? Those are some of the things I think about and evaluate. And then you make the decision. So that was a um my roundabout way to tell you about latte. But as I mentioned, you have to customize latte for yourself. You have the foundation. Now add in your cinnamon sugar, double pump this, skinny this, all the things.

Making Money Talk Normal With Friends

SPEAKER_06 44:27

It's very scary when you're my age. I'm like, drip black, please. But they like me at Starbucks because it's very quick at my order. Um, this really resonated with me. And I think that, you know, uh what we were talking about earlier, quit talking sometimes in the middle of all this, that um sometimes we feel the need to build the clock or the, you know, instead of just telling people what time it is, too. And I I love that. Um, I want to give a shout out to Camille on this call, or one of our new members who's also United Way Chief of Staff, doing something that I will share. Uh and Camille, feel free to add color commentary. I was so um thrilled at something she said in her personal development this year. She had friends over. They brought their checkbooks or whatever version of that online you have now. Uh, they brought their their financials, their financial goals, and they talked about it as a group of friends, their investments. They asked questions. Camille, you want to come off mic and share that? I thought that was fantastic. Sure. Um, that openness and that um a willingness to learn from each other in a safe environment.

SPEAKER_04 45:39

Well, hi everyone, I'm Camille Nebro, Chief of Staff here at Tulsa Air United Way. Um, Allison is a big fan of extemporaneous speaking, and um I'm fixed from right now for the next front stable. So thanks for having me. Um, yes, my friend Katie Foley, she is an excellent um kind of like personal assistant for some really great women in her life, and uh she loves to do what she calls a freaks in the sheets. So we scheduled a finance sleepover, we got our Excel spreadsheets ready, and we opened up our um bank accounts, our investment accounts, and so we looked at our spending just for one month of that. Um, and it was really fun. I think my friends and I already have an we already have honest conversations about money, and especially when we talk about um, you know, our careers, and a friend of mine just made a career move that was more financially beneficial for her. And so I think having that foundation of honesty, which can be hard to do, especially as women, when we first start, it definitely feels like you're breaking the rules or doing something wrong by talking about money and actually putting real numbers out there. Um, but in the long term, we know that when we outlive our husbands and get to live in our compound together, that we will be doing so comfortably, um, and with kind of a shared foundation of where we want to be in the future. Um, and so yeah, that was just a really special time to all come together to be healthy in that way.

SPEAKER_06 47:22

And if I heard you write, the you called it freaks in the sheets. So it didn't sound as nerdy as one might um sounded a little livelier than than getting together and talking about finances. So I like, you know, making it sexy to talk about finances is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

I love that too.

SPEAKER_06 47:40

That is awesome. Well, Amy, and I want to come back to you. You had a question I didn't forget about you before we we kind of close with key takeaways. Do you want to come off mic and and share your question?

Advocating For Your Team’s Pay

SPEAKER_05 47:51

I will I will keep it brief. No, this is also great. And I'm not even going to do the math of how much money I've left on the table. Um, I took 10 years off as a mom and came back very shy. And um, I am no longer that way. But my question is um now what I do is the work that I do is with the team. I was in a small organization, I did everything myself for years. Now I have the luxury of working with the team. And what I do and my what I for the value I bring to the organization has to do with managing my team. And so I find myself often needing to advocate for them and for them to be making what they need to be making as well, because we're a package deal. I don't do what I do if I don't have great people doing what they do. So, do you have any just tips or thoughts about how you do that well?

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Yes. Um, first of all, Amy, thank you for for joining the conversation. Also, I wrote down that you have this beautiful phrase, the value that I bring. That is such a powerful phrase that takes a lot of time and a lot of bravery for some people to articulate. And the way that you just demonstrated that you know your value and you know the value of your team is such a powerful step in that direction. Um, I think it goes back to earlier when we talked about understanding the problem that you're solving and the mutually beneficial alignment and really weaving those threads together. This is a great time for like latte to come back in where you would go through, look, anticipate, think, talk, and evaluate to set yourself up for that conversation and anchor in on the value. Additionally, in this scenario with the team, I would talk about, um, I would tie it to the bottom line. My mind instantly went to what is the value to the bottom line of the organization? How much are you saving? How much are you bringing in, et cetera, and really framing the conversation from that perspective.

Three Actions To Start This Week

SPEAKER_06 49:56

Amy, I love that you're thinking not only of yourself in the negotiation, but the whole the experience of the whole team. I I just really encourage anyone that's on the call that has the influence and authority to help your team get paid at least market pay. You know, and we put ourselves in a position at United Way, we shared, I mentioned the Alice data, asset limited, income constrained employed. And you can find it at UnitedforALES.org for any state uh that's that's in the Alice network. There's about 40 of them now. And what you find is you might even be paying some people in your own organization that's not a living wage. And so I I really just I really appreciate your question and not only thinking about yourself in negotiation, but thinking about the broader team and if you have the ability to to make other sacrifices to get those um all all ships rising, I think is really important. Um and I think visiting that Alice data also helps some of that frustration and fear. Like, why am I not making ends meet? Because you realize, like, I'm just not making enough money. You can't, you know, make make money out of maple syrup or something. I say that because Jay and I have about 11 maple syrups in our pantry. We got to find a recipe for a lot of maple syrup, but you can't live off of it and nothing else. Um, I I want to say thanks for that great question. I want to lift up one other author that is a local author, a professor at OU, Meg Myers-Morgan, who wrote the book, Um Everything is Negotiable. I think this is such an important topic. I think buy buy local, also if you're an oakie right here and down the street, and Jacqueline's book, Don't Leave Money on the Table. But Jacqueline, I want I want you to have a uh last word here on three things that people can start doing this week to improve their decision making, negotiation, communications at work. And I also want to be sure you share your cool use of AI.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Yes. So the three things that I recommend, I want you all to um, Camille, I love this idea of freaking the sheets. What I want you to do is just build a financial dashboard for yourself if you're not already using a tool. I personally like the um Anthropic Cloud platform to build my personal interactive dashboard of my finances. I share only what I feel comfortable sharing with that AI tool so that I can get a long-range view. So get comfortable with your numbers. The second thing that I want you all to do is I want you to email 10 professionals that you've worked with and ask them to describe you in three words. And once you get those back, just put it in a collage or put it in a spreadsheet. And what are those themes? The reason why I want you to do that is a lot of us are not comfortable articulating the value that we bring, or we downplay it, we say to folks, oh, that's no big deal. I can do it in my sleep. But that's only because you have put in the effort to hone that skill. So sometimes having those external people mirror back to you what your top skills are helps you to own those and carry it into your next conversation with value. Now, the third thing is going to be one of those building blocks. I want you to call a recurring bill that you have, a company, whether it's a cell phone provider or insurance provider, and ask, Am I getting the best rate? Start building that negotiation muscle with those conversations, as simple as that. Now, I've shared with you how I use AI to help me build a dashboard. What I'm looking for in that dashboard is I'm thinking about that 82-year-old version of Jacqueline who's sipping that spiked kombucha on the porch somewhere. She's healthy, wealthy, and vibrant. Does she have enough money to live the life that she needs to live based on what I'm earning today? And that helps influence my personal negotiations. From a business perspective, it helps me also to say, uh, although I would love to do this project for$50,000 less, 82-year-old Jacqueline cannot afford it. So that's how I'm using those tools to help inform my decisions.

Erika Lucas 54:16

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