The Cost of Staying Small: What Women Lose When We Wait for Permission to Lead with Cyndi Munson

What is the cost of staying quiet, playing it safe, or waiting until we're "ready"?

In this powerful conversation, Erika Lucas sits down with former Oklahoma House Democratic Leader and gubernatorial candidate Cyndi Munson to explore the personal and professional consequences of holding ourselves back and what becomes possible when we choose courage instead.

Together, along with VEST Members, they discuss the challenges women face when navigating leadership, ambition, and visibility in systems that weren't always designed for them. From overcoming self-doubt and societal expectations to finding your voice in rooms where you may be the only woman or the only person who looks like you, this conversation offers an honest look at the realities of leadership and growth.

Cyndi shares her journey from being told that her background, identity, and circumstances made her an unlikely candidate for public office to becoming the first Asian American woman elected to the Oklahoma Legislature and now a candidate for governor. Along the way, she reflects on the importance of resilience, authenticity, mentorship, and refusing to let other people define what's possible.

The conversation also explores a core VEST Her belief: that economic mobility isn't just about personal development. It's also about understanding and improving the systems that shape opportunity, representation, and access for women and families. 

In This Episode:

•  The hidden costs of staying small and playing it safe 
•  Why women are often taught to be cautious and how to move forward anyway 
•  The difference between humility and self-limitation 
•  How to distinguish healthy caution from fear disguised as practicality 
•  Finding your voice in male-dominated environments 
•  Navigating ambition without apology 
•  The role of policy, politics, and systems change in economic mobility 
•  Lessons in leadership, resilience, and courage from Cyndi Munson's journey 

If you've ever questioned whether you're ready for the next opportunity, struggled to speak up, or wondered what might be possible if you stopped holding yourself back, this episode is for you.

Transcript

Why Playing It Safe Costs

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hey everyone, I'm Erica Lucas, your host for today. Thanks for tuning in into the Vestor podcast, where we explore the conversations, strategies, systems, and policies that impact women's careers, financial well-being, and long-term economic mobility. At BAST, we believe that success is not just about individual effort. It is also about understanding the workplace structures, economic forces, and public policies that influence our opportunities. Today's conversation is about the personal and professional cost of playing it safe, of staying quiet, waiting until we're ready, minimizing our ambitions, or holding ourselves back from opportunities that could change the trajectory of our lives. As women, we're often encouraged to be humble, cautious, and risk-aware. And while there are very real reasons for that, there's also a cost when fear, self-doubt, and societal expectations keep us from stepping into our full potential. Joining us today is former Oklahoma House Democratic leader and gubernatorial candidate Cindy Munson. Cindy's story is a powerful example of what happens when you refuse to let other people define what is possible for you. Together we explore leadership, ambition, resilience, and what it means to find your voice in spaces where you may not feel like you belong. We also discuss the realities women face when taking risks, the double standards that often accompany leadership, and why staying small doesn't just affect us personally, it can also limit what is possible in our communities. Let's dive in.

Refusing To Stay Small

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Oh, a whole lot. Um, first, again, just thank you for having me and excited to be a part of the conversation today. Um, you know, I'm thinking a lot, obviously, a lot of what I think about in terms of your question is uh what I've been faced with mostly running for governor. Uh and it takes me back to when I first started running for office when I was 28 years old in 2013, where um everyone told me, you know, it's not possible for a Democrat to win your district. They they focused so heavily on my party registration. And then, of course, mostly the men telling me and reminding me that I'm a woman. And I was in one conversation where I said, I had no idea I was a woman. Thank you for letting me know. Um I'm 28 years into life and I was unsure. Um, and so, you know, I think that, and I said this last night in my speech um after getting the results that the powers that be, whether it's men, sometimes even women, you know, the system that we're in, um, the world that we operate in wants us to remain small because if we stay small, then the powers that be get to continue to be in power. Um, it's a way to keep us from elevating and doing the things that we envision and dream of. And I've I've been so encouraged by many of my friends that I have known, you know, my entire life, my childhood, who have been texting me and saying, Remember when you were in high school, when we were in high school and you would talk about this? And I would, having no idea what I was actually talking about. Um, and here I am. And I think sometimes we do manifest things and speak things into our life that we really don't truly understand, but our true self gets it. And um I think the cost of being small means that I'm looking at all the women, like those that have your cameras on, uh, women of uh, you know, wide spectrum of ages, diversity. Um, when I was asked to run for office because I was recruited by Sally's list to run, because I was getting very vocal about the things I was seeing on the ground. And I've always had opinions on politics. Um I said things like, I'm Asian American. There are no Asian Americans elected. There are no Asian American women elected. You know, what does this look like? I um live off of my nonprofit salary. I have student loan debt. I am not married. I'm not a Republican, I'm pro-choice. You know, I was listing off all these things to box myself in because this is what the world keeps telling me isn't possible in Oklahoma. And I took a couple weeks and I realized that those were all the reasons to run. Whether I win or lose, those were all the reasons to run. Um and I still feel that way in Oklahoma, or excuse me, of course in Oklahoma, but as I'm running for governor, I just got off a news uh interview and and the meant the the narrative is still, you know, how can a Democrat win? You know, like, well, if you listen to me, you would hear how a Democrat can win. And um, but if I keep, if I, if I continue or if I chose to internalize what they don't believe in, you know, that that's not going to be helpful for me. And it's not gonna be helpful to all of you or the state of Oklahoma who needs us to move forward. So I think the cost is not only to ourselves, but it's to our communities, uh, whether that's our family, our neighborhood, you know, I always think about communities as as small as like your family and as wide as the state and as our country. Um, but if we remain staying small, things don't change. That's the cost. And and I think just not being true to yourself. Um, we all have felt the feeling when we've chosen to remain quiet in a meeting, um, not speak up. Um, I think about relationships, even, you know, where we choose to keep the peace and and it costs us internally. So um I don't I don't want that cost, even though it is a daily battle. You see me running for governor and think, oh, she must believe in herself every second of the day. And it is a moment-by-moment thing. I think that's true for all of us to keep reminding myself you've got this and you have to keep moving forward. You have the skills um that everyone else does. So you just have to keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

Absolutely.

Finding Your Voice In Power

SPEAKER_04 6:08

Women spend a lot of time worrying about the consequences of taking a risk. And again, I want to acknowledge that there's a reason for that. Um, but looking back in your career, what were some of the consequences of the opportunities you didn't pursue or almost didn't pursue, and what did it teach you about the cost of staying small?

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Oh, goodness, great question. Um, I think early on in my career, especially the first half of um being in the legislature, you know, the the narrative or the story that was told that I believed was that, you know, my job is to just keep my seat. And because I'm the first Democrat to represent House District 85, and it was a big win for the Democratic caucus and the party. Um I just I thought, you know, my job is just head down, keep knocking doors, which is a good thing. Um, but but your job here is just to hang on to this seat for Democrats. And so I missed out. I think back on, especially as new members have come in and women have entered and joined our caucus. Um, I'm like, wow, these women are so vocal. Their first session, you know, I was like not talking. I also think that has to do with um who's in leadership. When I first came in, men were all majority caucus leaders. And then it's shifted to Emily Virgin. And then with me, majority of my leadership team has been women, and we've opened opportunities for women. But it took me a while to understand my voice at the Capitol. I kept looking to, and this isn't to say anything about anyone, just so you know, but I would look to leader inman and I'm like, I'm not him. I'm not this articulate attorney who wants to scream into the microphone. And I was still navigating how to build relationships. And I had a lot of fear around, you know, if I poke the bear too much on the other side, I won't get things done. So it took probably three to four years for me to realize you can stand firm in your values, you can be vocal and ask questions and do it in a way that is challenging the other side, the power that's powers that be, while continuing to hold on to yourself on the things that you care about and finding common ground. And as women, especially as we all know, but in a place like in politics where it's just men everywhere, you know, they all wear the same outfit to work every day. They say the same things. Uh, I have a funny story about that too, about the governor's race, about how they're copy and paste of each other. But um, you know, I'll look in, I'll be in committee rooms, and I'm the only woman, only person of color, only Democrat. Many times I would find myself going to the front of the chamber and looking out just to remind myself, like, look where you are. You do not belong here in terms of the way the system is built. And so um I had to teach myself how to form my own voice. And um, if you go back like and watch my debates or how I ask questions from the very beginning to where I am today, there is huge growth. And I'm proud of myself for that. And I I do wish sometimes I look back and and say, you know, 30-year-old Cindy in 2016 had a lot to say, but she held back because she was too nervous. I was too nervous about sounding stupid or or um, you know, I'm I don't sound like the men. And uh I wish I could go back and and talk to her and say, you can do this, you know what you're talking about, you know what you're doing. And it's not just about being a, you know, keeping this district represented by a Democrat. It's it's more than that. Um, but we are where we are today, and I have evolved a lot, and I have a bigger platform now, and so now I can just uh get out of that smallness mentality. But that's where I um I have some regrets and I wish I I would have done better. And I I deeply wish I had more mentors and I had great mentors. Um, but I I wish we as women would do more to help each other form our voices at the Capitol.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

I love that um because I remind uh people often that um conviction and strength and courage doesn't come overnight, right? And so I actually, you know, I I just think that thank you for being vulnerable and for being real with us because I think we're all finding our voices. And sometimes because of societal norms and because of the places that we have to operate in, it takes time and that's okay, but it's like a muscle. The more you do it, the more, the better you get at it, right? And then I also think that surrounding yourself uh with women who give you that encouragement to tell you that it's okay, and most importantly, that they have your back, regardless. Um, then I think that's also very important. So thank you for sharing that. Um again, I do want to recognize though that you know, you mentioned this, there is a double standard for women, particularly women of color, particularly for black women, especially in politics, as we're seeing now. Um and so as much as we want to be brave, as much as we want to take risks, as much as we want to speak out, um there's there's a there's a double standard

Caution Versus Fear In Disguise

SPEAKER_04 11:22

there. So, how do you distinguish between healthy caution and fear disguise as practicality?

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Daily challenge, that's a great question. Um, because my fear, I mean, and this is I think partly just like the the bigger picture of racism and sexism, but also I was, you know, my parents are divorced and my dad took full custody because my mother was verbally and physically abusive. And um, and I hate saying this, I've done a lot of therapy and growth and and things um with how I view my mom, but when I was a little girl, she was she was very harsh on me. And I I looked at her as someone who was always angry and I didn't want to be like that. And I think that um I internalized that for many, many years. And so I always have wanted to come off very nice. I don't want to be the angry Asian lady. Um I don't want to be the B-word, you know, and and I am uh I I do, you know, sort of struggle with that and balance that. Um ask any of my seatmates that have sat with me on the floor and I get done with a debate and I look over and I'm like, did I sound like an angry person? You know, but also what's wrong with being angry? Of course I'm angry. We don't help kids, we don't help families. Um, you know, we push people aside, we marginalize people. Yes, I'm angry. Um, sometimes I get off the debate floor and I'll have colleagues, specifically men, who are like, you need a smile. It's not that big of a deal. Why are you so mad? You know, and I'm like, why aren't you mad? I don't understand. Like these people are screwing your community over too, you know? And so it's um it is a balance that you have to work out. And and I think that, you know, as as women, we have to just shut that part of our brains off and just lean into our authenticity and the things that we care about and have the courage and bravery that whether we say something or we don't say something, people are gonna criticize us. Like I said, I just got finished with I finished an interview before I got on here. First thing I do is I get in the car, I look to my staff, I'm like, how'd I do? I forgot to say this. I should have said that. I should have been tougher on this, you know. Are men doing that? I I don't think so. Um, so I I just constantly figuring out ways to give myself more grace and compassion and and just remind myself, you're being your you and people want to see you because when they see you, they see themselves. And so um I try to remind myself of that. But but like you said, the the layers of um being a woman, a young woman, Asian American woman, you know, all of that. Um my therapist reminds me regularly that there there are not there are not many people who there aren't any actually in Oklahoma. Now I could look to other states, but in Oklahoma, there have been zero Asian American women running for governor. So we're blazing a path here, and I don't have many examples to look to. And when she tells me that, I'm like, okay, thank you for the reminder. You know, men have a plethora of examples. We don't have that many. And I don't take that lightly. And why I elevate that I'm the first Asian American woman. One, I want people to see what's possible, that we can do this, that we don't have to let our identity keep us from these opportunities. But also remember that, you know, I don't I don't have a lot of examples. I hope I'm a good example and role model. Um, but yeah, it's a it's a constant balance and battle that I have daily. And I think we all do. You know, you don't have to be at the tippy top to have these, uh, you know, as we're working through that. But um yeah, yeah, and I think as I get older and and more experienced in what I'm doing, I can better identify is this fear or is this caution or is this a strategy, you know, how do I navigate all of this?

Humility Without Self-Erasure

SPEAKER_04 15:19

I want to ask you something because um I used to struggle with it, now I kind of embrace it, but um, you know, I've been told several times that I am I come across as overly confident or cocky or arrogant uh in all of the above. Um and it used to bother me because I never saw myself as that. Um I do think there's a difference between being cocky and arrogant and just having conviction in your beliefs and not needing validation from anyone. But you know, that's another story. Um how um how what do you think about women who are often encouraged to be humble and grateful? And of course, we all want those uh those things, right? And I think I don't think I need to say that at with invest. I think women are inherently, excuse me, allergies are terrible. I think women are inherently uh uh grateful and kind and collaborative and and and humble. Um, but there's uh but that there's a problem when it becomes something that um where you internalize that you can't be ambitious too. Right? Um how have you learned to embrace ambition without apologizing for it?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah, great, um, great question. Uh humility has always been a value of mine in that, you know, I I just never want to get too big for my riches. You know, it's like the hard work matters, it counts. I think it it develops your character, it sharpens your skills, it helps you connect with people. That is all very important to me. Again, another just daily, you know, exercise I have to go through, which is is this humility or is this fear and um or fear or like doing a disservice to the work I've put in? So I have always, and I'm sure everyone here is mostly aware to of uh Enneagram, the Enneagram, anyone at Enneagram 3? So I've probably most of us. Um, and so for me, hard work, putting in the work, you know, being competitive, have something to measure yourself against is has always been what drives me um in terms of you know how I focus and things like that. And so uh hard work and putting in my work helps me to see one, to remain humble, because I think when you do the work, you see that it takes effort. And this doesn't just come to you. You're putting in the effort, you're meeting the opportunity. Um, and then at the on the other side, it's also a reminder that when you want to start beating yourself up, which I enjoy doing, um my my critical voice has shrunk a little bit over time, but uh she gets loud when I'm tired and hungry and thirsty and all that. Um, but I have to look back and say, look at all the doors you've knocked, look at the amount of money you've raised, look at the people you have, you know, the coalitions you've built, look at the things you've done. Um, you wouldn't have gotten here without that work ethic and the the effort that you've put in. And so I think that's what over time has given me confidence. Um, I don't think you're cocky. I think I'm I'm inspired by confidence and conviction and knowing your worth. You know, my my deep rooted fear is not being worthy. So I have to also balance are you overworking because you're trying to get to be worthy or earn someone's love? Or so politics is a tricky place for people like me, you know. Um, or do you already know your worth, you're putting in the work and getting it done? So that's a daily, yes, the immigrant dilemma. Absolutely. Um, and I think what I love about women leaders and the conversation we're having is that we know that the challenges that we face and the things that go through our our brains as we're leading and doing big things, it's not just the system, the bigger system, it's also just our who we are as people, our childhood, our upbringing, you know, the history of our culture or what our parents have gone through. Um, that has been an eye-opening experience for me to be more um aware of my full self, you know, being raised by a single dad who adores us and loves us. I mean, if you watch some of the news interviews from last night, I mean, he's like right behind me and he's like trying to kiss my forehead. And it's like, dad, I'm trying to do an interview, you know, but he supports me so much. But that feeling of like, why isn't my mom still, why is she proud? What is she thinking? You know, when we don't, we have had a challenging relationship, we don't talk. It's been over two decades now that we just don't, you know, um, so and all of that is like again layered on top of the big things we're doing. And and so quieting that voice. Um, I think sometimes people think for us, it's just, oh, we hate men and we hate the system. And it's like, no, it's all of it. And then our own personal experiences and lived experiences that we bring into it. Um, so that those are things I know I'm kind of getting deeper here, but those are things that I I bring with me in all of that I'm doing. And I see it. I also think it's what's given me the ability to connect with people and have compassion and empathy for folks because I can see them deeper than just where do you stand on this policy issue?

SPEAKER_04 21:02

I love that. I love that. Thank you. And here at Bez, we love going deep. So good. Because whoops. Yes.

Deciding To Run For Governor

SPEAKER_04 21:09

All right, members, this is your chance. We're gonna open it up for questions. I know you guys are eager to ask Cindy many questions. She is potentially our next governor. So uh have at it, um, whether you want to do it on the chat or just unmute yourself. But before I turn it over to you, let's open it up because I'm sure most of the questions are gonna be around your race and and uh politics. So running for office, uh, you know, for the governor, I mean, I you've already been at the state legislature, but uh going after the governor's position is a bold decision. What fears or doubts did you have to overcome before deciding to put your name forward?

SPEAKER_02 21:51

You know, outside of just the the you know, the party affiliation and and all of that, and just you know, where I stand on issues, um I think, you know, because when you look at my background, I mean, think about the typical candidate for governor and what we're already seeing, right? Veteran, rancher, lawyer, banker, business guy, you know, they all wear blue suits, red ties, white shirts. Um, not me. So I I actually find myself going back to 28-year-old Cindy in 2013, listing off all the things that wouldn't qualify me to be a state representative. I'm grateful I'm now 41, but I was 40. Well, I was 39 when I was making the decision. Anyway, a decade plus has gone by, right? And now I just think, you know, these are all assets. I have a different perspective. Um, being in the nonprofit world, you know, they're gonna paint me, like I said, just a little girl, no executive experience, et cetera. Um, I and and those, those, those stories creep into my mind. Uh, I don't come from wealth. I I will never be able to fundraise the amount that they have because they are giving themselves millions of dollars. And so I try to, you know, I my fears have been, or just things that almost held me back, was, you know, I I'm not I'm not gonna be riding on a horse in a commercial. Okay. I'm not gonna shoot a gun at you. You know, these are things I'm not gonna do, and I'm not willing to to make myself look like something I'm not. And so I think, you know, is who I am enough for Oklahomans? Um, being a young woman, growing up in Southwest Oklahoma, you know, just living life like most Oklahomans are, is that enough? So that's what that's probably what comes up that comes up the most and what almost held me back. Um, but but I know that most Oklahomans live the life that I live and have lived the life that I've lived. And and I know connecting with them is most important, and that's what's gonna help me break through the the the political affiliation, the money, the millions of ads you see on TV. Um that connection is really important. Um, I would say where I'm at now, the weight of everything is is building because yeah, being a state representative is a lot different than being governor, obviously. Uh, but people are it's not just the policy sides of things and just what you have to execute as a governor, but the hopes and dreams that people are putting on me. Um, I feel that. I don't take that lightly. I have I've I've never experienced people come up to me and cry. I'm usually the one doing that to politicians or people that I believe in. And and and and you can just feel they're they want something better for their state and for themselves and their families. And I don't take any of that lightly. And that's that's the daily thing that I take home that I'm just like, oh, I don't want to fail these people. I don't want to fail the woman who is is crying to me about her children, and you know, so um, but I do feel ready. I do feel ready that um I know what I've lived through, I know what's at stake for Oklahomans, and so I feel ready to take on the job.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Well, we're we're we're glad that you overcame all of those doubts and that you're here. Beverly, I'm gonna turn it over to you, and then I'll turn it over to Jay to help moderate some of the questions on the chat.

Turning Nonvoters Into Voters

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Oh, thank thank you guys. Uh Cindy, first of all, thank you for joining us today. It's uh it's really an honor to have you. Um I have a question. Um, you know, Oklahoma is often referred to as uh not just a red state, but the reddest state in the union, in the country. But I was recently reminded by a friend that uh we're really not a it's not that we're a red state, we're a non-voting state. Our people our people in Oklahoma do not vote. So I guess my question is what is your strategy for increasing voter turnout? And do you think that will make a difference in your race? And and by the way, I I looked, but I couldn't tell what the voter turnout was yesterday. Maybe you know, and maybe we're making some progress there. But talk to us a little bit about how you're thinking about voter turnout.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Great question. And uh thank you for reminding all of us we are not a red state, Republican state. We are a gerrymandered state. We are Republican controlled. We are not a Republican state. And when you look at, you know, the data that people look at, I think is I think it's skewed because of the way our our our system is set up. Gerrymandering's number one, uh, straight party voting, closed primaries, and like you said, low voter turnout. And uh what we knew and what really convinced me to run for governor, because I had the same doubts that some people like to push on me, that a Democrat can't win statewide. I'm like, I have one more term to run for that I know I can win. Why would I do that to myself, you know? Uh, but when you dig deeper into the data, let's first talk about midterm elections. Um, first, Joy and Drew, in the last two most recent gubernatorial elections, lost by 160,000 votes. That's really not a lot when you look statewide on where you need to find your voters. We have half a million registered Democrats and independents who are not voting in midterm elections. So, to your point, we have low voter turnout, people are sitting on the sideline, and these are voters. They're voting in presidential primaries and the presidential elections, but they're not voting in the midterm for governor and these other down ballot races that are, I would say, equally, if not more important than who we're electing as president. And so my job and what I've been focused on is energizing and connecting with connecting with and energizing those who are not voting. Um, and those are predominantly, like I said, Democrats, independents, and I would say middle of the road Republicans who are not buying into Trump and the MAGA um messaging and all that. Um, so our my job is to increase voter turnout and get those voters to vote for me. Um and and I think where Oklahomans are, they are my biggest um challenge I have to overcome is not voter registration. It's apathy. And people are apathetic because they don't feel like those in power are connecting with the issues that they care about or understand them. And so they don't feel the need to get out there and vote. One thing I've learned as I've knocked doors over the decade plus I've I've been in the legislature, and I've talked mostly to registered Republicans and earned their votes, is that um you have to get face to face with them. You have to do direct voter outreach. And it is absolutely more difficult in a statewide race. And I think where Republicans are are making a mistake, although I'm happy for them to continue doing what they're doing. I'm curious to know how many of you all were convinced by any of the candidates running for governor on the Republican side watching their commercials. What did they tell you about you or the issues you care about? They talked about Trump, bananas, um racism was intertwined in all of their commercials. Um, and and we're gonna see more of that in the next two months because these guys are rich and they're ruthless. Um, and they're gonna go after each other. Meanwhile, I'm on the ground talking to voters face to face. We're texting them, we're connecting with them on social media. The direct voter contact is very important. So that's our strategy. I'm not saying you'll never see me on TV. You won't see me until later, but that's not moving the needle. Um, and and in terms of turnout, the turnout was low. I I will hear more on the data, but also remember that independents were barred from voting in the primaries, um, which is a big issue. Obviously, the state question um was there, but but I think that people wanted, and I know we have registered independents, and I know folks who are obviously in favor of open the open primary state question, who are very upset that they weren't able to engage in the primary and vote for a candidate. Uh, I think the Republican Party, um, I haven't looked at all the breakdown of their turnout. If it was a larger turnout than the last gubernatorial, I'll get all that information. But my gut tells me that they are not as energized. They will be worn down. I will tell you, I've talked to Republicans who have said, my father's one, who said, I don't like any of these guys. You know, I don't like, I don't know what they stand for, I don't know what their vision is. And so our strategy is just focus on Oklahomans and the issues that matter and increase voter turnout. And that's the work we're gonna have to do. And sometimes it is harder. I will admit that. It's harder to get someone who feels apathetic that nothing will change and get them out to vote. But you are absolutely right. We are actually more if the if we had independent redistricting, if we had open primaries and we got rid of straight party voting, we'd be more of a purple state, middle of the road.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Um, I will also add, Cindy, that I think it's important for us to step up to. I think that one of the main challenges Oklahoma has is that we are really terrible at organizing consistently and over time. So we'll we'll organize and we'll go vote, you know, and then we forget that we have to build community consistently and continue to talk about these issues and continue to organize to put everything on a single candidate in a state that requires so much change, it's not possible. So I would just encourage all of us um to think about that and figure out how we can better organize as a collective within our own circles of influence in a consistent manner, because this will require all of us to pitch in, not just the candidates putting their name forward. Uh, with that, Jay, I'm going to turn it over to you to tell us what's happening on the chat.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Oh my gosh, so much is happening, but lots of love and support, first of all. I mean, everybody is so excited that you're here, Sydney. So thank you so much. And um just to, I don't, we're not gonna be able to get to all of the questions. I'm sorry, Besties, we have a lot, but um just to go through some.

Role Models And Underdog Energy

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Um, Monica would uh, I love this question. She um wants to know who are your role models that help you see that victory is possible?

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Oh, great question. Oh, it's like a it's like a a um a lot of people like people blended in. Um right now I think a lot about um, you know, everyone said that Obama would never be president because he was an organizer. And, you know, this guy is an attorney, obviously know, incredibly intelligent. And I think back on when he first really started getting into politics, and they're like, oh, he's just you know in church basements talking to people, he'll never be, you know, amount to anything in elected politics. Um, so I think about I think about him a lot, and I'm like, I don't want to be president, by the way. That's not an aspiration, but I think you know, what he has taught me in politics, and I was an Obama supporter in the beginning. I'm a I'm a HRC girl, and it took a lot for me to come around, uh, but because I thought I was betraying, you know, but I um what I've appreciated is and what I look to is, you know, this is a person who understood how important it is to connect with people. And I think that's why he remains so popular and somebody we continue to look to, especially if, you know, obviously a Democrat, you're looking for hope and change, as he's known for. Um, I'm thinking of other I don't know why this question is so hard for me. I'll tell you what I look for. The characteristics I look for is I'm I'm an underdog, right? So I'm looking, I'm always looking for those underdog stories and how do we overcome um, you know, just the stories and the narratives that are out there that try to keep us down. Um right now I've been very focused too on Governor Anatubby, you know, somebody who is, I just think a guy with, you know, 50 years of service to the chick to the Chickasaw Nation, and hardly anyone says anything bad about him. Nobody. I've never heard anyone say anything negative. And and that's the kind of service that I want, you know. I'm like, we should all aspire to be someone like him who's able to um do big things and still hold on to relationships. And and you don't do big things without challenging the status quo. Um, Hillary Clinton is obviously someone I look to and continue to look to. Um Maxine Horner, who is a state senator, she was the architect behind Oklahoma's promise. She is why I'm able to do what I'm doing. And I and I'm grateful every day I was able to thank her in 2018 at a higher ed dinner that I was able to go to college because of her determination to help students like me. Um and and being a lawmaker myself, I think about how you are, you know, you're looking at ways to improve people's lives and you want to um, you have this idea. And yes, you're thinking about this is going to help people, but you don't really always go, you know, to one person because that's impossible sometimes. And to think like Maxine Horner, who had no idea who little Cindy Munson was, you know, she's crafting this legislation, but she believes so deeply that children like me should have an opportunity to go to college, regardless of our family income and what other challenges were in place. So that that's what I think about, who I think about. Um my dad, of course, you know, who has put his life on the line for the country and and for his family, and even for my mom, even though we have challenged a challenging relationship and it's very difficult for me, and there's a lot of pain. Um as I've gotten older, there's more compassion thinking about a woman who came to a country where she didn't speak the language, she didn't understand the processes, and she's made it through. Um, and uh yeah, that that's what I look to. So, Monica, sorry, I don't have just one name or one person. It's just it's a combination. I don't know why that anytime anyone asks me that, it's always been so hard for me. Because I think I just like take a little bit of something from everyone and I like bring it together. Um, but for me, it's the overcomer. Um, it's seeing beyond, you know, letting just silencing the naysayers are my heroes.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Yes, Vanessa, go ahead.

unknown 36:48

All right.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Hey, good morning, everyone, and hi Cindy. Thank you so much for being here today. And big congratulations to you. I've been following you since your Sally's list days back in the day, and I'm just incredibly proud of you and inspired by

Built Environments Shape Opportunity

SPEAKER_00 37:02

your journey. Uh I'm Vanessa Morrison. I'm an urban planner based here in Oklahoma City, and I'm someone who's constantly working with the built environment, the physical spaces that make up our communities to address inequities in Black communities. And oftentimes I hear leaders talk about the disparities across Oklahoma related to education, health, job disparities, so on and so forth. But it's not always acknowledged how the physical environment, our homes, neighborhoods, streets, and all the physical spaces in between are shaping these outcomes and people's ability to reach their full potential. So I'm just curious as to how you might advocate for investments in the built environment, homes, parks, neighborhoods that can actually improve quality of life and address some of these disparities that have been just layered and so heightened in Oklahoma since the beginning of time.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Vanessa. And thanks for all of your support. Um, I'm gonna give one quick story. When I was working for the Girl Scouts at the very beginning of my career, I had a um a group of girls that I worked with on the northeast side of Oklahoma City. And, you know, the way that we tried to keep girls engaged and involved in Girl Scouts is have incentives, you know, just the badges, you know, that's how Girl Scouts is built. And I remember asking them, you know, what's one thing that you want to do? Um, you know, to to celebrate all your hard work. And I remember um they wanted to go, what's the melting pot? Is it called melting pot? What's that restaurant in Bricktown? Is it still thing? What's it called? Is it melting pot? Or you know what I mean, the Fondue place. Yes. So we went there and you would have thought that we were at Disney World. And I bring that up because I remember thinking, you know, it it's right down the street from their school, their neighborhood, but it feels like a world away because there's no way to get there. There's no way to connect these two communities or one community and and help people to see that they belong in both places, right? Um I think a lot about, you know, just what, especially girls, you know, what they can envision for themselves. And it's very small when they don't have access to more opportunities. Um, so all that being said, for me and what I'm encouraged by as I have, and I hope you're encouraged by this too, as I've traveled across the state, um, I've met with, you know, smaller chambers of commerce, economic development groups, and what they're talking about right now, um, Republicans are going to talk about cutting taxes, and they think this is how we bring economic developments, how we increase quality of life, but it's not. It is investment in local communities around childcare, housing, parks, sidewalks. Um, I talked to a gentleman who does economic development in El Reno, and he said one of the best investments they have made is a park, just a community park that's free, and that's gotten more people interested in El Reno industries, businesses, families that are wanting to stay, because this is where people are. This is where they know they want community, they want connection. And so that's why I'm opposed to cutting the income tax. That's why I'm opposed to cutting the property tax. Um, cost of living is high. We have to address those things. But if we don't have revenue coming into our state government and our local governments to make these investments, I don't know how you know we do all these things that we know people care about. So uh I understand the inequities of not having connection in smaller communities and doing these things that we know actually help people build their families and invest in their families. And then, of course, their economic opportunities. So for me, I and and when we're looking at where state government is right now, I think too many of our tax dollars are going outward. You know, we're trying to, and we have we do have to bring bigger industry to Oklahoma, of course. But I think we've we've invested way too much of that and gotten away from local investment. And that's where I want to put our priorities and and should I become governor, um, have those conversations with you and other local leaders on how we can do better. Um, and this is why your local leadership matters, your county commissioners, your city council members, where they're putting our tax dollars. And I think this is why people are also wanting those cuts because they don't see they're not seeing where their tax money's going. Um, and that's and then I would say those who are in in in communities where there's not um investment, it's even worse for for them to see what's possible because we're not making those investments. So that's important to me. And I'm again, I'm very encouraged to hear that um chambers of commerce are realizing we have to get back to focusing on families and people and how we invest in them and not just big companies.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Great question, Vanessa. And I have a follow-up to that before I turn it back to Jay to see if there are more questions in the chat.

Small Business Needs Real Investment

SPEAKER_04 42:02

One of my pet peeves uh around Democrat versus Republicans is and I think the Republicans have done a great job at branding themselves as the party for businesses. Where I think people are not paying attention is what type of businesses. Right? Because um, and and I'm gonna pick on my friends at the chambers. I'm a former economic developer, so I think I've earned my right to do that. But I think that oftentimes we hear this narrative about being pro-business. And the reason I think this is an important question is about 50% of our members at Vest, and of course, Stitchgrew, 100%, but 50% of our VEST members are business owners. And often you hear this narrative that, well, if you are pro-business, if you believe in businesses and entrepreneurship and all of this, then you need to vote Republican because they are the party for business. But what I challenge people to think is what size of business? Because even the SBA, right? Like the SBA, you can be what uh I can't remember 500 million or 500 employees, uh, millions of dollars in revenue, where you know, 98% of businesses throughout the country are under a million dollars. And so I think it's very important that we challenge the narrative a little bit more when you know these broad talking points are said. And I, and then on the at the same time, I want Democrats to do a better job at talking to small business owners and getting out there and saying, no, listen, we are for small businesses. We believe uh, you know, that you guys should drive. And the incentives for small businesses are very different than the incentives we were given SpaceX or the contracts we're given, you know. I do think that that is such a missed opportunity, and I hope that hopefully your campaign embraces it. Everybody embraces it because. Small businesses, the ones that are not sexy because they're not getting private investment or they're not being highlighted on all this, you know, tech platforms and stuff, they're the ones keeping our economy afloat. But we just don't give them the spotlight ever because they're not sexy to talk about, right? They're called mainstream businesses.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

No, I I wholeheartedly agree. Um, I had a uh small business, and it was small, so we we want to keep doing this, uh, but small business round table. And I wanted to know, like, you know, what are the tax issues or what is what are some of the things where government does get in the way? And it was interesting because the comments, the conversation there was mostly, especially because this was in Oklahoma City, around housing, because they're like, you know, the homelessness challenges we face as a city is impacting our business. And these are folks who are like, you got to invest more in services and and and housing and things so that because there are things happening, you know, on the doorstep of their business. I am going to be doing this again in ENA tomorrow. And and I would love to organize something with Vest members to hear, you know, how can we, I would we want to have this conversation, and this is where I'm really focused because I agree with you that I think we we just we spend so much time, like I said, giving our tax dollars away and having conversation about bigger industry. And those folks, as soon as that tax incentive's up, they're gone. Uh, and many times, and I will critique the chamber too, because their own members have said it's not about the income tax, it is about investment in education, investment in services, making sure your people are ready and healthy and educated to be in the workforce. That's what we're more interested in, which Democrats are better on those issues. And um, and I'm I'm glad when their own survey says it's like your members are telling you what you want and childcare. Um, so I'm I would I you're absolutely right. And um, I want to do more around focusing on local Oklahoma businesses and entrepreneurs. You're already here. We need to make those investments to stay here. Um, so I I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. And we as Democrats have to do better, and I'm hoping to do that with my campaign.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

Thank you, Cindy. Jay, anything else happening in the chat or anyone else have any questions?

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Yes, lots of questions.

Rural Wages And Organizing On Ground

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Um this one is came from a couple people uh talking about the uh minimum wage proposal being voted down yesterday and um lots of disappointment and it feels discouraging to to a lot of us. And uh Kendra asked, how can we change the tide in the rural areas of our state? Um and she also said having previously worked in the food security space, those are the areas that most need a livable wage. So uh what are your thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_02 46:52

This is yes, it is very disappointing. I think there, I'll just speak really quickly to the state question. I think there were just so many issues in turn, first with the governor pushing it two years out. Had this been on the ballot as soon as those signatures were approved, like this the earliest election, an election with a higher turnout, um, would have been helpful. And he knows that. He knows that. That's why they are trying to take control and make all these changes for the initiative petition process, because the people are not in alignment or they are not in alignment with where the people are. I think the misinformation campaign, the scare tactics about businesses shutting down. I do think there was some, I think the confusion around um, you know, when when the rate, you know, the minimum wage would go up at what point, like, oh, 2025 already passed. Like I had someone talk to me about that. Some of the exemptions, I think there were a lot of um factors within the state question that that that just created too much confusion, in my opinion. And I'm not that's not to um disparage those who put the question together. It's that the the system, the powers that be, they wanted it to be like this, to be confusing and difficult for people to um to get behind. So all that to say, um, in terms of rural Oklahoma, I will give you an example of just I was in sulfur on Saturday. I was in a small restaurant, and um I talked to a couple women, one who was not registered to vote, she is now, and she'll be voting in November, who's making $9 an hour as a cashier, um, living in an apartment that is filled with mold that her landlord is not addressing. Um, and and you know, she of course was like, you know, I don't know if I'm a Democrat or Republican, and then said, you know, are Democrats pro-abortion? You know, that's where her head went because that's the narrative she's hearing, right? So I'm the first person she's ever seen run for office, talk to her as a human being, first Democrat she's ever met. And this is why we have to be on the ground and we just better have to do better as Democrats, making ourselves more present and known and having these face-to-face conversations. This is a bigger infrastructure issue with the party and county parties, and and and we have made improvement. I will say that, and I'm grateful for that. But um, as candidates being out there, and that's why I will not, I will not say no to any small town. I don't care if they voted for Trump, 98%. I'm going because I relate to these people. I understand what they're going through. And and I was in Latimere County the last week, and I had Republicans come up to me because only Democratic candidates showed up and they said they think they have us locked in. They do not, you know, and so I'm encouraged by those conversations, but you know, it's it's gonna take a huge effort. It takes a lot of work, Kendra, as you know, and you're absolutely right. You know, all of the economic challenges or majority of the economic challenges that Oklahoma's face are concentrated in rural areas because they don't have access to services. There are not a plethora of nonprofits out there providing services. Um, I'm also very encouraged by the number of people I've met that are running food pantries and, you know, they're they're helping people get to their doctor's appointments. Thank God for our tribes that are in rural Oklahoma, helping um every which way that they can, but the state has got to step up. And so all I can do is just be on the ground, be as present as possible, go myself and ask questions. Um, when I when I'm getting a coffee at a small coffee shop, or I and we try to go to small businesses and small communities too to get business, you know, um in there and get people spending their money, I do ask, what is your wage? What are you getting paid? That's how I found out the $9 an hour. Um I was in McAllister, young woman making $7.25 an hour. So for all the people who say, no, they're not, yes, they are. Um, and so we just have to keep communicating and breaking through where we can.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

Cindy, I knew we would run out of time. Yeah, I know. And I have so much more to say too.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

So honestly.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Oh, I know. And we have so much more to ask. Um, but let's close with this.

Closing Pitch And How To Help

SPEAKER_04 51:00

What is your pitch for this position? Why should people vote for you? And what can people do to support your campaign?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Yeah, I I believe I should be Oklahoma's next governor because I do understand what everyday Oklahomans are going through. And I think what we have been missing in politics at a local level and a national level is someone who understands and is willing to be open to um finding solutions and working with the other side of the aisle. I will be a Democratic governor working with a Republican legislature. That's just a fact. Hopefully not a supermajority, but they will still be in the majority. And I have a track record of working with the other side and coming to solutions and helping Oklahomans. Eliminating the state sales tax on groceries groceries is one, but I have had many bills signed into law by both governors Mary Fallon and Kevin Stitt, who we don't agree on everything. And I wouldn't have been able to get those things done if it weren't for building relationships and a coalition with Republicans. So, what that should tell you is that we have the ability to work together. You just haven't been able to see it because we've been under one party control with a lot of toxicity and a lot of dysfunction with no focus on you. And um, it's time that you have somebody who knows what you're going through and has the urgency to solve those problems. Um and I clearly care and have the compassion and empathy for people. I'm willing to do the hard work. And I think that should be recognized in this campaign for governor. Ways that you can support me is certainly donating. You know, the the biggest area that I I just I will not compete, um, but I am playing a different game than they are. I do not have millions to give myself. So every dollar that uh an Oklahoma gives, you know, that goes towards continuing to travel the state, getting my message out to Oklahomans. If you want to see me on TV, if you want my message getting out to rural Oklahoma and having the ability to be out there, you know, chipping in a monthly donation really does help at whatever amount that you can give. The maximum is $3,500 per individual. Um, so if you can do that, that will go a long way. And then signing up to volunteer, getting on the doorstep, sending out text messages, uh, finding ways to get your circle of influence involved in this campaign is very important. And getting on social media, sharing and resharing what we're putting out there gets my message out as well. Uh, and just breaking down that narrative of disbelief that things can't change and that a Democrat can't win or a young woman can't win. Think about your own story and how many people told you you couldn't do what you're doing today. Um, embrace that, own it, and and help me spread the message that anything can happen when we work hard, we believe in ourselves, and we do the things that we know are necessary to win. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for everything that you're doing in in our community, uh, what you're doing for yourself. It inspires me to keep going. And I really appreciated the conversation and absolutely wish we had more time. And so hopefully I can come back. And I do want to have a round table discussion with some of your members around small business. I want to strengthen uh what we're talking about and our messaging on helping small businesses throughout our state.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

Happy to help you on that end and maybe do another follow-on with um small business owners. Uh, thank you so much, Cindy. I I couldn't agree with you more when people say to me, Well, this can't happen is well, not with that fucking attitude. That's right. So it starts with us. Um, you know, part of being a leader is hope is uh discipline, and we have to show up with hope. We have to give people a reason to win, a reason to fight, a reason to show up. Um, if we come in defleted or depleted and saying that we can't do it, that doesn't inspire anyone. You know, that doesn't turn apathy away. And I think it's gonna take all of us to make this change. I am so grateful for you, Cindy, not just for showing up to this session and this recording, but also for putting your name out there, for not playing it small, and for being an example for all of us on courage, on conviction, and on showing up for ourselves in our communities. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed the episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of women, eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vesther.co to learn more.