Is AI Truly Inevitable?

AI is everywhere right now, and the loudest message sounds like a threat, move fast, adopt everything, or get left behind. We’re not buying that. We sit down with Julie Guirado, Executive Director of the Center for Humane Technology, to ask the question underneath the hype, is AI truly inevitable? 

Or is that a story shaped by incentives and profit?

We dig into what’s driving the AI race to be first and why that speed can hide the “mid-range harms” already showing up in daily life, from delegating our thinking to machines to shifting how we relate to other people. Julie also breaks down what the data and incentives suggest about job displacement, wages, and economic mobility, plus why “human value” like judgment, empathy, and relationship-building may become more valuable as automation spreads.

Because this is a women-centered conversation, we get specific about where women are hit hardest, bias in AI outputs, underrepresentation in the rooms where funding and regulation happen, and the exhausting pressure to constantly play catch up. We talk about concrete guardrails that can make responsible AI real, including product liability, design standards, whistleblower protections, and deepfake and likeness rights, along with global momentum like the EU AI Act and the need for clear red lines.

You’ll also leave with practical ways to protect your creativity and agency. 

Click here for our guest full bio and show notes. 

Transcript

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Questioning The AI Hype

Erika Lucas 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Vestor Podcast where we have honest conversations about the forces shaping women's lives, careers, and economic opportunities. I'm Erica Lucas, your host for today. Let's get started. We're constantly being told that AI is inevitable, that it will transform our jobs, our businesses, and our lives. And that if we don't learn to use it fast enough, we risk being left behind. But what if that narrative is exactly what we should be questioning? In this episode, I sit down with Julie Girado, Executive Director of the Center for Humane Technology, to look beyond the hype and fear surrounding AI. And to ask a more important question: Is AI truly inevitable? And who benefits from the way AI is being developed and deployed? We also talk about what AI could mean for jobs, wages, and economic mobility, particularly as it relates to women and communities that are already underrepresented in the rooms where the decisions about AI are being made. We explore the hidden cost of delegating more of our thinking and creativity to machines and why human skills may actually become more valuable in this AI-driven economy. Most importantly, we talk about how this adapt or get left behind narrative is not the only choice available to us. Julie also shares research, resources, and practical tools to help us better understand AI's impact. For Julie's full bio and show notes, go to www.vesther.co forward slash podcast. If you enjoy the episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, applying to join our community of women eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vesther.co to learn more.

Julie’s Path To Humane Tech

Erika Lucas 2:17

Can you tell us how you ended up doing this work?

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yeah. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for having me, Erica and team. How I ended up doing this work, I often think about this question. I think the best way to answer it is that I've always challenged the notion of progress, what we associate as progress in our world today. I had a very early pivotal moment when I was in my undergrad back home in France, where after studying a lot of literature, philosophy, math, foreign languages, I was thrown in marketing classes. And suddenly I was learning how to sell toothpaste. And nothing against toothpaste. Actually, it's one of the few products that is quite incredible. And I was wondering, wow, as humanity, we've gone so far. I don't know if this is where I want to spend my time. I don't know if this is the progress we should thrive for. Progress should probably be a slightly more inclusive and fair. And so that's that's really been the through line of my career. And you mentioned me studying psychology. This really came from a very similar thing, which was I kept noticing how at work we were tackling issues through a technical lens. You know, we got to bring in new software, we got to have a new process, we got to do this new thing. But really, what it comes down to is like you and I, Erica, we don't like each other. And I was like, we're completely forgetting the people facet of this. And that is exactly what's happening with technology, is we're looking at technology through a technical lens, but completely forgetting what is happening on the side of it from a societal standpoint, from an individual standpoint. And this is the work that I'm doing at CHG, really challenging what progress is and who progress is for.

Erika Lucas 4:01

Amazing and so needed because there is a lot of noise, right, right now around AI, depending on your algorithm, your work environment, who makes up that work environment. And you know, it can go from enormous optimism to really very real fears, as I mentioned, about job displacement and the broader consequences in society. From where you sit and all the research that you guys have done, what do you think most people are getting right about this moment? And why are we not talking about enough?

Incentives Driving The AI Race

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yes. Regardless of your algorithmic bubble, the I believe that the negative sentiment that people have about AI is just growing. And when you look at the latest stats, 52% of American adults feel more concerned than excited about AI. That's from the latest June. I'm pretty sure that this number keeps on going up. 71% of Americans think that there will be fewer jobs because of AI. And that negative sentiment, that skepticism, this worry, this concern, I think is right for the time that we're in. What we're not talking about enough is what is driving the moment that we're in? What are the incentives at play for AI to be designed and deployed in a way that is being designed, deployed, and talked about by tech companies? Our role at THC is really to clarify what those incentives are. And once you've identified those incentives, then what can we do about them? And when I talk about incentives, the first time I heard this word, I was like, okay, that's a great word. But like what is behind this? And I think there's a law. There is we got to win against China, be the first one to profit, we got to be the first one to drop a new model. And I hope you're catching my sentence the first, the first, the first. It's a race. And race means you're gonna go fast. And as we've seen often, you might break things. Another thing that I believe is not talked about enough is the mid-range, what I call the mid-range harms. So we're talking a lot about what has happened in the past. CHT supported families after they've lost their child tragically will engage with a manipulative chatbot that led them to commit suicide. So this type of very tragic harms, we talk a lot about what AI can do. Oh, is it going to replace all the jobs? Is it going to go rogue? But what we don't talk about enough is what is gonna happen in between? What is gonna happen in six months? What is already happening now? The moment that I delegate more and more of my thinking to a machine, how is that affecting my brain? My brain is a muscle. I don't know if you guys have not gone to the gym for a month, but I see it. And when you don't use your brain for a month, what is gonna happen to that? When you start talking to an AI instead of talking to a friend or family member, how is that shifting your expectations of what it means to be in a relationship? And all of that, these are small examples, but there is a lot happening there that we're not focusing on. And that is where the conversation could refocus at least 30% of its attention.

Erika Lucas 7:19

Absolutely. You know, part part of our best members, I mean, we have we have everything. We have CEOs, we have emerging leaders, we have investors, we have philanthropy, you know, women in philanthropy. We also have women authors or you know, women who are writing books. And I remember them sharing that some of not as most established authors see the problem within their own industry and sector, right? But they were talking about maybe the younger generation kind of trying to embrace AI for writing or as a tool, but then they quickly realize to your point, what it like if you start using it, you actually it it can give you like writer's block too, because no, it actually works the opposite way because it's about your creativity and your own words and kind of so totally, totally see that. You know, you mentioned the race to becoming the first. That has also been true, though, for years and decades when it comes to becoming the first and like the most productivity, you know, the most productive. Yet the it seems like the the line always moves, right? Then we become more productive and then more productive. And yet that has also led to the huge discrepancy and disparity in who profits from productivity, right? And I think that has to do with you know what we're seeing right now, the fear around job displacement, the fear around, you know, what it and and it's funny because I think if you talk to corporate America or a lot of the tech CEOs, you know, they came out it very strong, right? Like this is going to displace job. Now they're walking back because they see kind of the the discontent among the public. What from your perspective though, what is the real impact on employment, wages, economic mobility? Like what does the data actually tell? Not CEOs, not the news sources, but the data.

Jobs Wages And The Human Premium

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah, I'm gonna go back to the incentive word for a second. What is this company's incentives? The incentives is to replace human labor. I, an AI, is going to be cheaper than you, and is going to be cheaper than me, and cheaper of all of us combined. And we all in our roles are always asked to look at the bottom line, right? How can you spend less and get more? To your point about productivity. This is just the world we live in. It's always more squeeze the lemon harder, harder, harder, harder. But to your point about them walking it back and kind of thinking about the predictions that they have said, and you know, there is also a huge incentive when you're raising money to say, oh, this technology is going to revolutionize everything. By the way, I'm raising a trillion dollars. This you need to have a claim that matches kind of the amount that you're raising. That said, to the point that you were making in the introduction, AI is starting to replace jobs and jobs that are entry-level, jobs that are, you know, easy to automate, customer service jobs, and that is definitely happening. At the same time, we also are noticing how AI, the more you use it, the more you're like, oh, it can be really helpful, but there is really a lot of human value. And so I really encourage people when thinking about how AI is affecting employment, wages, economic mobility, to think about where is the value being created now? And they're starting to become this sort of premium for human value. You know, that moment, that very rare moment that you call customer service and you bump into a human the first go. I will buy from this company every day, every day. And so really thinking a little bit when AI can be really helpful and when the human value is what's going to be most helpful in the long term. And so we need to focus on yes, the potential things, the potential for automation, but where do we want to maintain our humanity? Where do we want to keep on having the effort and forcing ourselves to struggle with the problem, to think it through, to have the hard conversation because that will lead to a better outcome?

Erika Lucas 11:33

I love that. And it's so true. And, you know, Julia, you and I were talking about this before the session started. But, you know, I think you're preaching to the choir, I'm preaching to the choir. I think most of the people here in the session understand the implications, understand that, you know, we need to be human-centered, all of those things. What's the message to CEOs then? You know, or like I what is the message to the people that are not part, that are not seeing this? Because let's be honest, these effects are disproportionately going to affect, are already affecting women, right? And yet, if we look around the rooms, of where decisions are made made as to who funds these companies, these AI companies, who owns these AI companies, who regulates these AI companies, women are not represented in those rooms, and particularly women of color and other marginalized communities, that communities that are likely going to be disproportionately more affected by this. So what concerns you most when it comes to women's, particularly when it when we're talking about economic mobility?

Bias Against Women And Missing Voices

SPEAKER_02 12:50

That that is a huge concern as a whole. And I think there are three levels to this conversation: the bias that we see in the models, the replacement problem we're just talking about, and then to your to your earlier point, who was in the room. When it comes to bias, there is this study that was made where somebody's typing in Claude, Chad GPT, and Gemini saying, I have this symptoms, health symptoms. I think it's dizziness, stomachache. The same symptoms, the only thing that changes is the hair. I am a 25-year-old female, I'm a 25-year-old man. 96% of Claude, to 96% of men will say you should go to the emergency room. To women, only 7%. Chat GBT and Gemini score a bit better than this, but there's still a difference between men and women. This type of bias in the type of answers that we're getting is a problem for women, but to your earlier point, for any marginalized community. The other thing is that to the conversation we're having earlier, replacement is going to affect marginalized people more, women included, just because these are often the most vulnerable people. And what really tops it up is that indeed in the room, you have very few women. And we all know that for any complex problem, you need a diversity of perspective. And you need to have a little bit of tension. You need to riff a little bit. You and I need to disagree. Oh, should we do this? No, in my opinion, you need that. You need that friction, that friction that they are removing for us with those products by telling us that it's a problem. But AI is like, I really, really believe that AI is one of the most, if not the most complex problem of our time. And to solve such a complex problem, we will need a lot more diverse perspectives. And that is a big part of what we are doing, Center for Humane Technology. We're just launching a fellows program because we wanted to push up voices that are not the voices that often talk about responsible tech and AI, because this conversation needs to come from different disciplines, different point of view, different genders, sexualities, ethnicities, abilities, and nationalities as well, which is something that I obviously care about being non-American, fully American.

Erika Lucas 15:07

Of course. Yes to everything, Julie. And you know, I go back to the question of what about the other people? Because the reality is a lot of, and it's not just tech bros or tech CEOs, right? Like I'm hearing it in philanthropy, right? Like now there's a lot of funders and philanthropy organizations that let's fund equitable AI. What is that? What is equitable AI? I hear it in in, you know, of course, our organization it is within philanthropy, but also, you know, we support small business owners. And so there is an argument to be made that AI is a mock democratizing access to tools that make it easier for people to launch and maybe grow businesses. Yes. And how I mean, how how do we have this conversation more comprehensively? Because when you're talking about CEOs and people that do care about profit or philanthropy who don't want to be left behind and want to kind of catch the sexy next thing to fund, or when we're talking about real uses, right, for like small business owners on becoming more productive when they don't have the staff to do everything they want to do. How do we expand the conversation to include those audiences into like to everything that you're saying, right? Like, how can we be productive in the way we're shaping and building this?

How To Regulate AI Like Banking

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah, I think this is a 20-fold answer type question, but I will try to make it brief. I think one of the first things we say at CHG is clarity brings agency. And to the earlier point that the negative sentiment about AI is really shared across the US, the more we have these conversations, the more we just take them as facts, the more we're gonna start shifting the needle because we're starting to change what we're demanding. The moment that you realize there's so much bias, it's like, wait, you guys gotta do something different. The second thing is pushing for regulations. There are ways for these products to be regulated. They are a couple that we always talk about at Center for Humane Technology, product reliability applied to AI products. Very simply, if your product causes harm, what should happen? If the product was the spend, I'm pretty sure that the pen company would be liable for it. The same thing should happen there. The design, we often forget that this technology is designed. Like ChatGBD didn't fall from the sky with using I pronouns. It could be saying instead, all of the data that I know is telling me that. Instead, it tells you I think. And this type of design is something that we could demand from tech companies to make the switches, to ensure that bias, for example, is not included. There are many ways to do that, but I really think that understanding that, you know, this technology being a technology that we all have access to does not mean that we all have an equal opportunity with it. Because I think that's a big part of what we're being pitched as well, is oh, but everybody can use it. And I remember this from computers. You know, oh, we give computers, everybody's gonna be great, everybody will have access to the same opportunity. What was happening was children who didn't have parental supervision were using it on YouTube. And can you blame this children? No, no, it's not on the individual to carry that responsibility. That technology should be designed differently and for human, for humanity's best interests as a whole.

Erika Lucas 18:43

Yeah. And you gave a, I don't know if we started the session or not, but you gave a great example on the banking industry, right? Like right now, there's this conversation driven again a lot by big tech and and people that don't believe in regulation or that regulation hinders businesses. But you gave a great analogy on the banking systems. Can you talk a little bit about more about how we move away from this? Oh, all regulation is bad.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah, the the message that we're being sold right now is we cannot regulate AI. It's a bit too complex, and we have to be first, first to a long list of things. What we've seen with the banking industry before the Great Recession was that there was no regulation at all, and it ended up the way we all know how it ended up. Banks got regulated. And if you look at the studies, if you talk to people that work in those banks, they will tell you that banks are healthier, that they work better, and that having these boundaries are helpful. And there's a reason why all of our democratic systems have checks and balances, because the whole point is to have this. And so, yes, AI is a technology that is moving faster, integrating deeper than any other technology. And at the same time, to me, that is not a call for no regulation. It is actually a more urgent call for regulation. And again, there are real tools to do that. The product liability I was mentioning, design standards, whistleblower protections, very basic things that we've seen work very well in other industries. And that is again when companies are shifting on oh, you have to watch out how you use it, you better adapt, use it because you're gonna get replaced. They again are creating this, oh, you must adapt in case if not, you will get eaten. That's a little bit the vibe that they're selling and putting it on us. It's not on us, it's on the systems, it's on them to shift the incentives that are governing that technology. And again, there are really there exist tools to do that. And there are lots of proposals at the state and federal level that support the things that I'm mentioning.

Erika Lucas 20:51

Yeah. And and I hope that also CEOs are paying attention to look, if you're proactive, you know, like look at what happened what's happening to Meta right now, right? Like, what was it, 48 states, one against, and so now they have to go back and and pay those, you know, penalties. So I love how you say it's so true, and why democracy is so important, right? Like capitalism unchecked is just not good for anyone. And so you need both. Thank you for

Stop The Catch Up Trap

Erika Lucas 21:23

that. You mentioned, you know, the message that's being sold to us. I have to address, since you know, we are a group for women, podcast for women. Recently, there's been this push, you know, by women influencers, women celebrities who are pushing this narrative that we have to embrace AI or be, you know, or you're gonna be left behind, particularly women. And um, you know, I don't know what their intent is, I don't know who's paying who. My deal is I'm tired, to your point, of women always playing catch up. When we're not in the rooms where all of these decisions are being made. And also, I'm tired of, to your point, placing the responsibility on the individual as opposed to the collective and the people that are pushing these narratives and these technologies and tools. What do you have to say about that? And kind of how do we hold ourselves accountable as women to, you know, it's not that, of course, growth matters, of course, upscaling matters. But if we don't change the systems that are kind of compounding and keeping us in an ever-evolving catch catching up cycle, uh, we're we're always going to be playing catch up.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Yeah. And the I really like how you phrase this question because that's why we really focus on the incentives driving the technology more than the companies themselves. Because you have to change those incentives at the top to be able to shift the trajectory of how the technology is designed and deployed. You were mentioning the meta trial, 17 billion for Meta, who earned 60 billion last year, is not that much. It's a lot as a numerical amount for all of us, but in percentage, it's not that much. So that's why we really focus on the incentives. But to go back to your question about the individual pattern, the world we live in is you got to eat healthy. You got to be a good partner, you got to read a lot. You gotta, I mean, I don't know. We, I think all of us collectively could come to 100 very quickly on all the things that we have to do. And AI should not become another individual optimization project. Center for Humane Technology, we're launching a campaign later in September, the tagline being it's not you, it's. And also having the conversation as a whole. We all feel this way: women, men, people of color, white people, everybody is feeling this pressure to adopt. To be concrete, because I imagine that's where you would like to go a little bit. Like any new tool, it's probably wise to know how to use it. It's wise to understanding understands capabilities. At the same time, as AI is taking over more and more of our own human abilities, our cognitive capacities, specifically our relationships, our identities, I urge caution. When I notice myself asking a question to ChatGPT that I was answering myself two years ago, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. When I hear of a colleague saying I get cloud to always check my emails, oh, interesting. And it's becoming this crutch. And so, as part of this campaign, it's not you, it's AI. We are encouraging people to take five steps to protect their humanity because that is really what is at stake. And I'm not gonna give all of them away because the campaign is not live, but just a couple here, always owning the first draft. The thoughts need to come from you. You can then use AI as a Socratic partner that thinks with you, but own the first draft. The second one is try a day a week without AI. I don't know if anybody here has tried dry January. If you try dry January, what you learn is, oh, this is my relationship with alcohol. And you take data. Do I want to stop drinking? Do I want to keep drinking the same? And it's so about data because we all remember what happened to us when we started delegating, for example, music searching to Spotify, Deezer, or YouTube, to the algorithm curating things for us. There's this moment that we get stuck. Like, I don't want to listen to jazz. Why am I stuck in jazz? Oh, because I've delegated this to an algorithm. And with AI, we risk doing this on steroids. And it's really important to adopt this technology wisely. So use it with moderation, would be the summary of all of that.

Erika Lucas 25:54

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Data Centers Power And Local Impact

Erika Lucas 25:58

You talked a little bit about this, but I want to go deeper into it. When major technology shifts happen, the people with the fewest resources to absorb the disruption are often the ones experiencing the greatest consequences, right? And I think this is a big deal right now happening with like data centers. You know, if you look at where they're being built, they're being built in communities that are already have challenged economic challenges, and they're being sold to us as, oh, you know, we're going to invest billions of dollars, but it's really infrastructure dollars, right? They're not really job creation. And it is extractive, you know, to those communities. And there's also the conversation, I just have to say it. I'm a former economic development developer, uh, Julie. So I tell people I'm a recovering economic developer, but it's being positioned to us as look, it's it's good for the community, you know, they're gonna pay property taxes, even though we're giving them a property tax exemption for like 10 years or whatever. How are you guys doing anything about like controlling the narrative again? Because it depending on who you're listening to, and maybe I'm on the wrong algorithm, but I do hear the argument of you know, of people that are like trying to sell this very differently than the way you and I are talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yeah, there are a couple of things. One is what for? And really going back to progress again. And I think you mentioned at some point the idea of optimizing everything. Why are we trying to optimize everything? Asking ourselves this question, why and why is it bad that my best friend doesn't text me straight away? Why is it bad that she doesn't agree with me all the time? Why is it bad that I struggle with a white paper? And I'm not saying that AI is not a fantastic tool because there are moments that I'm blown away what he can do, and especially for things that I don't like myself. But questioning the why is a very important thing because what AI is forcing us to do is challenge the big narrative of progress that we're in. Because the narrative is your life is there is a pro the way you live your life is not right. You gotta optimize it. Optimize for what for more productivity. And that is a big, big question. When we at Center for Humane Technology, we published this year the AI roadmap, which has seven principles for AI to be rolled out in a way that would be beneficial to society. And one of these principles is about concentration of power, which is what we're talking about here, because these decisions are taken by few people and affecting everybody. And we encourage certain actions to be taken to make sure that the benefits are rewarded, distributed more evenly. Again, if we don't challenge the progress narrative, the solutions are a bit tricky to implement. But an easier one of all of them is retraining pipelines now and not after replacement. So rethinking about this people that are might get replaced, what do we want to retrain them to? The way we do it at Center for Humane Technology when we use AI internally is if this is going to replace this, okay, how do we augment you? What else can you do for the organization? How can you help us achieve our goals? So not seeing it as like, oh great, I'm removing somebody's salary, but great, we can achieve more with the same amount of money.

Erika Lucas 29:36

Gabby, Jay Sarah, I have not, I mean, I I could go on asking questions and getting more into this, but I want to include members who are here. What is happening on the chat?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

There was a question that was just dropped in the chat. You know, a lot of us think of with AI, we our thoughts immediately go to Chat GBT, Claude, presentation creation. But Heather asked, what other instances should we be more aware of potentially? She mentions custom customer service moments come to mind, but where else does AI show up that we should be more aware of?

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yeah, that's really an excellent question because indeed the general public, we've really focused on these big models. There are lots of everything that can be automated. And by automated, I mean any task that is repetitive, either you do it every day, you do it often, or it's always the same thing. You could almost follow your own IKEA manual for it. There is an AI tool for. And I would really encourage people to investigate those tools. Again, really thinking about not for replacing the person who's doing the job, but oh, if this person had 10 more hours a day, a week, what could they focus on? What value add could they bring to the business, to the organization? And internally, we also have a podcast. So I know that they're using some tools for fact-checking. We use some tools when we're coding things. I think I'm kind of running out of examples, top of mine, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yes. Sarjita just mentioned how do you how do we or how do you talk to the decision makers on this topic of over-optimization and immediate productivity versus the value of human creativity and quality?

SPEAKER_02 31:19

The conversation that we're having with companies is really pointing to them what are some clear changes in demand that we can have. So, as part of the campaign, it's not you, it's AI, we have some clear requests of companies. It is all anchored in a white paper that is coming out on September 9th that is exploring how AI is affecting the various pillars of our humanity, relationships, cognition, identities, et cetera. And based on those pillars, we're noticing that AI is going to have some negative effects, some of which we've discussed on that call, and specifically what can we do to protect them. So the first one is AI should prompt your thinking instead of thinking for you. So if I said, hey, Claude, what do we think of Erica's email? Claude to be like, Well, Julie, what do you think of Erica's email? This is very small, it's very small friction. When it comes to how you form your inner thoughts and this idea that, you know, we are all fed an average answer. When I say, hey, I want to go to Maine this summer, what should I do? Everybody on this call would get the exact same answer. And that is flattening culture and having demands for that as well. And so it's really a double, a twofold approach for us to understand how the algorithms work, how they affect us. And then we have clear demands for companies that are being backed by academics and other organizations in the responsible AI space.

Erika Lucas 32:49

Yeah. And I think we're seeing it right, like where people that were under the mindset of let's be the first. I mean, a lot of CEOs are having heartburn right now for laying off a huge amount of workers thinking AI would just be able to replace all of that knowledge and realizing that it doesn't really think much right now. It's it's really operating within databases that, you know, exist. And there's, to your point, no friction and no discussion. And so a lot of people that, you know, used it to replace call centers, to your point, Julie, then now are realizing that people want to talk to people. Or, you know, that it's not a simple black and white answers that they're looking for. And so you you you need the human touch on it. I will say, from my end, what we tell in the entrepreneurial space, particularly in the tech entrepreneurial space, there's a lot of honestly, to be completely honest with you, it is male-dominated, the narrative. But it's like, oh, we can launch companies and do all of this, and within one day, I can build an app and do all of this. And my question is like, yeah, but can you sell it? Because that's still a personable. Can you build the relationships? Can you talk about your product? Can what problem are you solving? Are you having those discussions with real people? Because what we're seeing right now in the entrepreneurial space and the venture capital space, it's saturated. Now you have everybody building AI tools or components or companies, but they can't sell them because they're not really solving any problem, you know? And so I think it's it's just a bigger conversation about, you know, instead of instead of just focusing on the macroeconomics and playing catch up. And to your point, Julie, we should go back to the basics is is this even needed? Do we even want it? What are the implications if we do build in, you know, and really have a more holistic view of of our impact with with this new technology?

Agency Is Real Policy Matters

Erika Lucas 34:57

One thing that that I know can feel overwhelming about AI is again this sense that that the future is inevitable and that the technology will advance and and those of us will either just adapt or get left behind. What choices, though, are actually still in our hands? You meant you gave us some few examples, but how can regular people get more involved either with policy or with regulation or with investment? You know, give us a little bit more. You mentioned the fellowship, you mentioned the paper that you're doing, but what do we do with it?

SPEAKER_02 35:34

First of all, nothing about what is happening now is inevitable. If you told me, truly, we have proof that there's a meteorite about to hit the earth and you know we can see it, that sounds pretty inevitable to me. This technology, we design it, we choose how we deploy it, we choose how we design it, we choose to design it. What you were mentioning earlier of, you know, what problem is it solving? We often talk at Center for Humane Technology of products without a purpose. We're choosing to, we collectively are choosing to build these products that way. And so really shifting from it's inevitable to we could design it differently. And to get there, well, to go back to the banking example, policy and regulation is a great tool. The product liability design limits, the deep fakes and likeness rights, we've been seeing a lot of issues there, and that is gaining a lot of traction, whistleblower protections. And then when it comes to us as people with agency, as business business leaders, of course, everything depends on the role, myself included, I have to think of the bottom line. But really thinking, okay, this is a decision I want to make today. What potential implications would that have two years from now? How might that impact my customers? How might that impact my team? How might that impact the innovation that having human minds bring to the table? How can I use this tool for the maximum capacity that it has without getting fooled by it? And I think this line is really hard to walk. And we live in a very interesting time. And I think it is also forcing us to self-reflect more and think, oh, uh, I saw in the chat somebody saying, Oh, it's making me feel sometimes lack of confidence after I use it a lot. And noticing this and reminding ourselves we have agency. We can do today is my day without AI. It's always a bit rocky at the beginning, and then after an hour, it feels so much more accomplished. And just remembering this agency that we have for ourselves, and then finally, the policy and regulations that I was mentioning, these are things that people can demand off their policymakers. When it comes to product liability, there are many, many, many US states that have proposals for liability that are happening right now. And I would really encourage people to care about this issue as something that is not inevitable. And like if there are lots of potholes in New York City, you can apparently send a message to our mayor and TikTok and he will fix them. Well, using this, this agency to call our the people that we present as and tell them, no, it's not inevitable. And this is what I would like you to do because I care.

Erika Lucas 38:19

Absolutely. And which reminds me of the question about you know what other uses, a big use that we should all be talking about, it's security and privacy, right? And we like you, like the member was saying, it's we tend to think of Chat GPT and uses like that, but really we're not talking about, you know, cybersecurity. We're not talking about, you know, tools like Flock, which is, you know, something we should all be cognizant about and and and and we should all be talking about it. So, anyways, another use for the member that that brought up that question. Julie, are there any other books that you recommend we check out?

SPEAKER_02 38:59

I there are hundreds of books, and I could tell you the latest one I'm reading, but I have this flaw which is I never remember book names. I'm the same way.

Erika Lucas 39:10

Um, I do uh it's a Empire of AI. From Karen How from Karen. That was good.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

If people are interested in reading more, the Center for Humane Technology has a sub stack where we distill a lot of what is happening. So for people that have less time and don't want to spend their time dreaming, breathing, thinking AI like I do, uh it's a good way to understand what is going on in the world of AI and how to make sense of it. Because that really is the thing I would really invite everybody to do is we're being told a lot of stories and we are smart, capable people with agency. And I really would invite people to add back their past experiences. What have they seen with the internet? What have they seen with social media? What do they know from history, from new technologies? Using this knowledge, seeing their own experience with the technology and drawing their own conclusions. If you look at AI right now, it's excellent at things that are automatable quickly. What in your job is automatable quickly? Doing that analysis, this audit of some sort for yourself and being like, okay, this is what this is looking like for me, and just really thinking, where is my human value at? And always, always questioning what you're hearing and thinking of the incentives. What are companies, what are the incentives that might be driving the companies to be saying what they're saying? To gauge it a little bit, do I believe, do I not believe? And that will ultimately be a choice that is very individual.

Erika Lucas 40:38

Yeah, for sure. Julie, you mentioned earlier, and we've talked about it, that you know women are underrepresented in the rooms where you know regulation is taking place and all of those. And, you know, with this administration, it's even more so, right? Because they came out with this anti-DEI argument and that really affected women, right? A lot of and we saw that it it wasn't just talking about some of the government funding that went away and some of the contracts and grants for women-owned businesses or women-led research, or not even women-led, but just research towards women's studies and so on. And then we saw corporate, you know, like obey in advance and do the same thing, right? Like a lot of they they dismantle a lot of DEI programs, they, you know, haven't been as intentional as perhaps a one where, although I've always been skeptical of corporate when it comes to those type of programs. But uh needless to say, under this administration, the conversation about representation and having diverse voices in the room makes it smarter. Those are not as prominent as they once were prior to this administration. Are you seeing that in the companies that you're talking to in the in the organizations that you're working with? Are they like how are they reacting to this? And are they still being intentional? Do are they accepting the argument that we need diverse voices? What are you seeing, or how are you talking to them to emphasize the need for this?

SPEAKER_02 42:27

The one thing that we always focus on is that technology is really seen through this technical capabilities and not seen as something in relation to us, our society, our human psychologies, the flaws that we have in the system up here that make us vulnerable to infinite scroll and whatnot. And so we really encourage companies, anybody working in the ecosystem to think about the need for a multidisciplinary approach to this, bringing in economists, philosophers, childhood development experts, psychologists, personality social, people from diverse backgrounds, just the wealth of diversity that our society has, to think through the effects that technology is having. As a whole, as we've seen with the recent meta-trials, the understanding and the acknowledgement that technology has societal impacts is really growing and is something that I think you know, if you were to interview Americans today, probably a lot of them would say, yes, that is correct. And the tech the companies are aware of this, and we encourage them to bring in as many perspectives as possible and really listening to them. And that is, you know, a work that is constantly in progress.

Erika Lucas 43:40

Absolutely. And I I don't mean to, I know I'm jaded, and I know I'm probably frustrated, but you know, actionable items I always share that look, we're not gonna, you know, we see we've seen, you know, who this administration appointed to be the AI. What are the call it I don't know the AI coalition or the whatever their group is called and I think I have two women everybody else was men and then and they were all CEOs so I love how you said you know no we need the collective and regardless of gender or or race or you know I we need like philosophers we need psychologists we need people because this is going to affect us all regardless of of our titles and our practice but in in in terms of actionable items I know we are limited a lot in the federal space but I love how you said you know call your mayor call your local council when we're debating these contracts with whether it's flog contracts or you know what are how are uh our local attorney generals going to regulate certain aspects of industries different states have different regulations so there there's still stuff we can do at the local and state level for sure and conversations that we can have within our own spheres of influence and also the power or the or the you know uh roles that we currently have what else for anybody that's listening that's either anxious or excited about AI what would you encourage encourage them to learn question or just have a little bit more knowledge so that they can have greater agency in how we shape the future of work the first and most important thing is remembering that this is not inevitable.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

There is nothing about this that is inevitable. We have agency we really do and contrarily to social media back when the conversation was picking up as I was mentioning earlier 52% of Americans are skeptical of oh we're in June I think if we're poll today I'm sure this number has gone up this conversation that people might be having in their heads or just with their trusted friends is a conversation they can have with everybody. Yet it is also an exceptional tool and the more we talk about it, talk about the uses the moment that we're like I don't know when I do this it makes me feel this way. Just really seeing us as agents of change both at the individual level in how we can use it understanding for some of us that are in positions where they can implement business outcomes just thinking okay what is the human way of implementing this technology? What that means for you will depend on your business, your circumstances, but asking yourself that question and very, very importantly don't blame yourself you don't get it perfectly. There is no way of getting it perfectly it's not on you. It's the way the technology is designed it's the incentives driving it. But we can all collectively we all feel the same way which is incredible when you think of it. We all are feeling the same way and let's use our agency our collective agency to just ask of the system that we live in to do its job and for us as individuals to just know where the limit is but please no guilt, no shame no embarrassment it's not going to be perfect.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

We're just all are going to be trying another question I saw from the chat from Allison says since this is a global issue, how should governance be addressed on that scale?

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Yeah that that is an excellent question. It is definitely a global issue and a lot of different countries and institutions are kind of dealing with this. We've seen a lot of progress at the European level with the EU AI Act that passed recently there is coordination that is happening. There's probably more coordination that is needed and specifically on the we call them red lines the things that AI models should not do and that is the the idea of AI red lines and kind of global coordination around them is something that definitely should happen and has started happening.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Hey this is Shrijida here thank you great insights great session do you have any podcast recommendations? I've already saved the substack link but I'm so tired of everyone listening and recommending the AI daily it is such a narrow perspective and I'm just looking for something broader.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

We have a podcast called Your undivided attention that I would recommend you listen to we drop episodes every other week there are a bunch of other podcasts on the topic I know that people internally also really enjoy Hardfork. Yeah would encourage you to listen to definitely CHC's podcast but also hard fork is is a great resource.

Resources And Final Takeaways

Erika Lucas 48:24

Access all of the resources Julie shared at www.vestor.co forward slash podcast if you enjoyed this episode share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level apply to join our community of women eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vestor.co to learn more